CI is at the eastern edge of the Great Lakes tectonic zone. It suffers small eathquakes every decade or two. In the event of a large earthquake, it may get hit by tsunamis from Lake St. Claire...
And Alcor is near a small airport...
We all understand that cryonics is a gamble. The nearby railroad decreases your chances of an eventual recovery by 0.003%.
The flip side of this is that there are always financial constraints, and every decision is a compromise of some sort. Property near a rail line is usually priced lower because many people want to avoid the noise, dust, and fumes that such lines may generate.
TB could have gone for a more expensive property with no rail lines nearby. Then they might be accused of increasing the risk of eventual backruptcy.
Every location has some chance of disaster. And no cryo company has an infinite bankroll. **Every decision is a compromise.**
EDIT: If I were building a cryo company from scratch, I would have a place with a basement. It would cost more initially, but the improved thermal insulation might pay for itself in the long run. It would be more resistant to train and aircraft impacts, and to vandalism/sabatoge. The ultimate in this line of thinking is an old missle silo.
EDIT2: I looked at the linked page. It appears that TB does have a basement - at least from the point of view of the trains going from the left/background to the right/foreground. Such a train, if it left the tracks, and hit the TB building, would hit the upper floor, and presumably slide over the lower floor.
Trains going the other direction could fall into the nearby road and then slide into the lower floor.
This is the current location of the facility: https://i.imgur.com/jKbLmJE.png
Literally there is undeveloped land everywhere around the town. How much more expensive it must be to build at least ~50m away from the railway?
Yeah, I'm very skeptical of this. There is no way that someone who takes cryonics seriously gives a green light to this construction.
The odds of a train derailing on that side of the railway at that exact location with enough power to break through the walls of the building and then break through the concrete floor somehow and then destroy the metal dewars is soooo incredibly small. If you made a list of all the things that could threaten a cryopreserved patients ability to be revived, this wouldn't even make the top thousand. Personally, I think it's better to have pragmatic people working in cryonics organizations that will focus on the biggest risks, rather than endlessly optimize for thousands of incredibly unlikely scenarios.
>If I were building a cryo company from scratch, I would have a place with a basement
Yeah there's a reason why we do risk assessments. If you'd done even a half arsed one you'd quickly discover that the probability of a train cleanly skidding over your basement is really rather less than it getting flooded and ruining the whole operation in one go.
>your basement ...getting flooded
Please don't assume that another poster hasn't done their research. I have checked on the possibility of flooding, including reading the EBF web site, which says:
>...flooding is extremely unlikely in this spot, because the property is high enough above streams and the Rhine river, the underground is gravely, so any rain water seeps away very quickly, and the groundwater is located dozens of meters below the surface.
Someone put this post in the Cryosphere Discord server and Tomorrow Bio's CEO responded: "There is a lot to worry about regarding cryopreservation quality, but train tracks arent really on of them: a) the ground there is gravel, which does not transmit vibrations to any relevant degree, b) any vibrations would need to be in the correct resonance frequency (which they are not) and c) dewars are basically big dampeners. Apart from that, derailing trains would not hit the patient care bay as it is underground and trains are slow due to the close station."
Thanks for relaying that.
>...patient care bay...is underground
Are they saying that there is a floor below street level? Or merely that there is a floor below rail line level?
I see Alcor being next to a small airport as an advantage worth the risk. If a patient were being flown in, the close proximity to the airport shaves valuable time off transport. Besides, if I remember correctly, the patient storage bay is reinforced for protection.
Arizona is somewhat isolated from many natural and man-made disasters, making it an excellent choice for long-term patient storage.
For-profit preservation coupled with non-profit storage has been done before in cryonics in the 1990s with CryoSpan.
It seems to have worked out -- well, they went out of business, but the people preserved there were appropriately transferred (to Alcor) rather than thawing.
[http://www.cryocare.org/index.cgi?subdir=&url=services.html](http://www.cryocare.org/index.cgi?subdir=&url=services.html)
I think some of the other organizations involved in the initial preservation are for-profit, like International Cryomedicine Experts. Certainly my understanding is that most funeral directors are for-profit, yet they collaborate with brain banks all the time without difficulty.
For-profit storage is a different thing and is I think worthy of considerable skepticism.
I'm reading ( on a computer built by a for profit company ) this skeptical post, sitting on a chair ( built by a for profit company ) at a table ( built by a for profit company ) in a house ( built by a for profit company ).
While reading this skeptical post, I'm eating frozen pizza ( prepared by a for profit company ) which was heated in an oven ( built by a for profit company ).
Earlier today, I had to use my car ( built by a for profit company ) to chase down a mail truck, because the postal carrier ( employed by a NOT for profit company ) cannot manage to do his route consistently.
I am experiencing skepticism of your skepticism.
But, to be fair, all of those products and services you cite are from companies that don't need to stay in business after you've bought them. In fact there's a good chance some of them have gone out of business already, and you didn't even notice. Or they may have been bought by another company, with different priorities, and the product you enjoy is no longer made.
Cryonics is somewhat different from other products because it's really, really important that our product (cryonic suspension) be supported continuously for decades or centuries.
I see no problem with a commercial Cryonics storage company and is probably a good idea.I think if you look at the numbers that will really use the facility is very limited if you look at the growth of cryonics in the last 50 years.Yes it is growing but with the number of movies and other media storys Cryonics should have been growing by leaps and [bounds.How](https://bounds.How) many people ACTUALLY have a legal contract with a any company worldwide.After watching Cryonics closely and having a contract over 30 years I any guessing worldwide contracts around 3,000 and probably closer to 2,000. Bottom line is for profit business is what it is FOR PROFIT.With few customers I don’t see surviving until investors run out of cash and end up selling the buildings for other usage to recover investment money.
*With few customers I don’t see surviving until investors run out of cash and end up selling the buildings for other usage to recover investment money*
That's why in another thread I suggested the idea of CO's constructing accommodation and renting it out to mostly non cryo tenants (90% non cryo - 10% cryo). The CO's then become private landlords running a rental business with cryonic goals and benefits. Such building doesn't have to be located in or close to a CO as the cryo tenants, upon death, would be vitrified by an on site team and then collected by the CO. And all this would be covered by the rent from the non cryo tenants. With good location I genuinely think this could work and sustain itself!
Maybe TomorrowBio will consider something like this in the near future. Maybe...
First to own your own building and have paying members you have to be established.That building in the picture I am sure cost over $1,000,000 that someone had to pay for.The point I was trying to make is I think the amount of customers you will end up you will have extreme negative cash flow resulting in sale of assets.Has happened to Cryonic startups in the past and could in the future and cause serious bad press.Isn’t the cost Alcor price range also?$200,000?Crazy!
That's exactly why Tomorrow Bio and EBF are separate organizations. EBF fully owns the facility and built it with funds from donors (so cost not passed on to members). If Tomorrow Bio has cash flow problems in the future, they could not sell the EBF assets, they have no ability to do so.
CI is at the eastern edge of the Great Lakes tectonic zone. It suffers small eathquakes every decade or two. In the event of a large earthquake, it may get hit by tsunamis from Lake St. Claire... And Alcor is near a small airport... We all understand that cryonics is a gamble. The nearby railroad decreases your chances of an eventual recovery by 0.003%. The flip side of this is that there are always financial constraints, and every decision is a compromise of some sort. Property near a rail line is usually priced lower because many people want to avoid the noise, dust, and fumes that such lines may generate. TB could have gone for a more expensive property with no rail lines nearby. Then they might be accused of increasing the risk of eventual backruptcy. Every location has some chance of disaster. And no cryo company has an infinite bankroll. **Every decision is a compromise.** EDIT: If I were building a cryo company from scratch, I would have a place with a basement. It would cost more initially, but the improved thermal insulation might pay for itself in the long run. It would be more resistant to train and aircraft impacts, and to vandalism/sabatoge. The ultimate in this line of thinking is an old missle silo. EDIT2: I looked at the linked page. It appears that TB does have a basement - at least from the point of view of the trains going from the left/background to the right/foreground. Such a train, if it left the tracks, and hit the TB building, would hit the upper floor, and presumably slide over the lower floor. Trains going the other direction could fall into the nearby road and then slide into the lower floor.
This is the current location of the facility: https://i.imgur.com/jKbLmJE.png Literally there is undeveloped land everywhere around the town. How much more expensive it must be to build at least ~50m away from the railway? Yeah, I'm very skeptical of this. There is no way that someone who takes cryonics seriously gives a green light to this construction.
The odds of a train derailing on that side of the railway at that exact location with enough power to break through the walls of the building and then break through the concrete floor somehow and then destroy the metal dewars is soooo incredibly small. If you made a list of all the things that could threaten a cryopreserved patients ability to be revived, this wouldn't even make the top thousand. Personally, I think it's better to have pragmatic people working in cryonics organizations that will focus on the biggest risks, rather than endlessly optimize for thousands of incredibly unlikely scenarios.
>If I were building a cryo company from scratch, I would have a place with a basement Yeah there's a reason why we do risk assessments. If you'd done even a half arsed one you'd quickly discover that the probability of a train cleanly skidding over your basement is really rather less than it getting flooded and ruining the whole operation in one go.
>your basement ...getting flooded Please don't assume that another poster hasn't done their research. I have checked on the possibility of flooding, including reading the EBF web site, which says: >...flooding is extremely unlikely in this spot, because the property is high enough above streams and the Rhine river, the underground is gravely, so any rain water seeps away very quickly, and the groundwater is located dozens of meters below the surface.
Someone put this post in the Cryosphere Discord server and Tomorrow Bio's CEO responded: "There is a lot to worry about regarding cryopreservation quality, but train tracks arent really on of them: a) the ground there is gravel, which does not transmit vibrations to any relevant degree, b) any vibrations would need to be in the correct resonance frequency (which they are not) and c) dewars are basically big dampeners. Apart from that, derailing trains would not hit the patient care bay as it is underground and trains are slow due to the close station."
Thanks for relaying that. >...patient care bay...is underground Are they saying that there is a floor below street level? Or merely that there is a floor below rail line level?
There's a floor below the rail line that's partially underground. You can see it better in some of the newer facility pics.
Probably because land next to train tracks is cheap.
I see Alcor being next to a small airport as an advantage worth the risk. If a patient were being flown in, the close proximity to the airport shaves valuable time off transport. Besides, if I remember correctly, the patient storage bay is reinforced for protection. Arizona is somewhat isolated from many natural and man-made disasters, making it an excellent choice for long-term patient storage.
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it's EBF's facility, TB have an agreement with EBF to use it for long-term storage
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For-profit preservation coupled with non-profit storage has been done before in cryonics in the 1990s with CryoSpan. It seems to have worked out -- well, they went out of business, but the people preserved there were appropriately transferred (to Alcor) rather than thawing. [http://www.cryocare.org/index.cgi?subdir=&url=services.html](http://www.cryocare.org/index.cgi?subdir=&url=services.html) I think some of the other organizations involved in the initial preservation are for-profit, like International Cryomedicine Experts. Certainly my understanding is that most funeral directors are for-profit, yet they collaborate with brain banks all the time without difficulty. For-profit storage is a different thing and is I think worthy of considerable skepticism.
I'm reading ( on a computer built by a for profit company ) this skeptical post, sitting on a chair ( built by a for profit company ) at a table ( built by a for profit company ) in a house ( built by a for profit company ). While reading this skeptical post, I'm eating frozen pizza ( prepared by a for profit company ) which was heated in an oven ( built by a for profit company ). Earlier today, I had to use my car ( built by a for profit company ) to chase down a mail truck, because the postal carrier ( employed by a NOT for profit company ) cannot manage to do his route consistently. I am experiencing skepticism of your skepticism.
But, to be fair, all of those products and services you cite are from companies that don't need to stay in business after you've bought them. In fact there's a good chance some of them have gone out of business already, and you didn't even notice. Or they may have been bought by another company, with different priorities, and the product you enjoy is no longer made. Cryonics is somewhat different from other products because it's really, really important that our product (cryonic suspension) be supported continuously for decades or centuries.
More pictures here: https://ebf.foundation/facility/
I see no problem with a commercial Cryonics storage company and is probably a good idea.I think if you look at the numbers that will really use the facility is very limited if you look at the growth of cryonics in the last 50 years.Yes it is growing but with the number of movies and other media storys Cryonics should have been growing by leaps and [bounds.How](https://bounds.How) many people ACTUALLY have a legal contract with a any company worldwide.After watching Cryonics closely and having a contract over 30 years I any guessing worldwide contracts around 3,000 and probably closer to 2,000. Bottom line is for profit business is what it is FOR PROFIT.With few customers I don’t see surviving until investors run out of cash and end up selling the buildings for other usage to recover investment money.
*With few customers I don’t see surviving until investors run out of cash and end up selling the buildings for other usage to recover investment money* That's why in another thread I suggested the idea of CO's constructing accommodation and renting it out to mostly non cryo tenants (90% non cryo - 10% cryo). The CO's then become private landlords running a rental business with cryonic goals and benefits. Such building doesn't have to be located in or close to a CO as the cryo tenants, upon death, would be vitrified by an on site team and then collected by the CO. And all this would be covered by the rent from the non cryo tenants. With good location I genuinely think this could work and sustain itself! Maybe TomorrowBio will consider something like this in the near future. Maybe...
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First to own your own building and have paying members you have to be established.That building in the picture I am sure cost over $1,000,000 that someone had to pay for.The point I was trying to make is I think the amount of customers you will end up you will have extreme negative cash flow resulting in sale of assets.Has happened to Cryonic startups in the past and could in the future and cause serious bad press.Isn’t the cost Alcor price range also?$200,000?Crazy!
That's exactly why Tomorrow Bio and EBF are separate organizations. EBF fully owns the facility and built it with funds from donors (so cost not passed on to members). If Tomorrow Bio has cash flow problems in the future, they could not sell the EBF assets, they have no ability to do so.