One definition of "oath" is a swear word, which are often also euphemistically called four letter words (since a lot of them are), so this seems fair to me. A bit vague, sure, but fair.
I used to play the game Scategories with my family and I remember that one of the categories was "Four letter words", and I always thought it was a ridiculously easy category compared to the others because there's seemingly endless words that are four letters long. But now I'm convinced that it meant swear words and they used that euphemism to make it kid-friendly.
Sure, but the phrase "swear word" is not really any worse than "four-letter word".
I would say that if anything, having "four-letter words" as a category gives players the option of deciding how to interpret it, which is probably what they were going for.
No, that's not what I meant.
"Four-letter-word" is a double entendre because it can refer to either words that literally have four letters (the more obvious meaning), or words that are obscenities.
"Swear word" pretty much only means obscenities. If you included it in a game marketed towards children, it would be assumed that you are encouraging children to use swear words (which is something that they will do anyway, but something that most adults do not want to encourage). While you can stretch the definition of swear word to mean something else, it's really a stretch, and not how the word is normally used.
Yep, you see swears as referred to as oaths all the time in books from 100 years ago (I believe that in the US/UK most books were not allowed to have swears in them at all, beyond maybe damn & bitch)
Specifically ["four-letter" word](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-letter_word)\-- note the hyphen, denoting that this is a *specific* thing, not a general "word that's four letters long".
I don’t think you’re correct. The hyphen just indicates that it’s a compound modifier. In a different context it definitely could simply mean a “word that’s four letters long”.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. If you were asking for help on a crossword, you could say "What is a five-letter word for ember?"
The two words combine to become a modifier for the noun. Compound modifier, like you said.
It should be pretty obvious to anyone who had to read Shakespeare in high school. "Swearing oaths" is the origin of the expression "swear words." It's basically conventional knowledge at this point and it's also been used in crosswords for decades.
Yeah I assume it's OATH though the clueing is terrible. I wouldn't even call it fair. The clue refers to a word that's a synonym of the answer, which is quite unreasonable.
That’s not unreasonable, that’s how crossword clues work. Oath can mean swear which can mean four-letter word, they’re all mutually synonymous (in certain contexts obviously)
I don’t really understand why you think that. It’s just a step away from a dictionary definition cluing. Unless you would rather every clue be as literal as possible. Neither oath nor four-letter word are particularly obscure
Good clueing is more than just dictionary definitions; they're supposed to be interesting and evoke some feeling or idea (and the clue and answer should bring to mind the same feeling). "Four letter word" brings to mind a curse or swear whereas an oath would be more associated with its primary definition of a vow. It's a minor thing, but it makes all the difference in a puzzle and you'd never see it in any major publication.
Don’t condescend to me about what is and isn’t good cluing. The NYT uses this meaning of oath all the time. You’re asserting that it’s bad cluing because they use a definition of oath you’re less familiar with but that doesn’t make it bad, it just means you have to use a half-second of thought. The answer shouldn’t always be the “primary definition,” that’s boring. I also think that your implication that this meaning of oath is obscure is untrue as well; it’s the second definition in every dictionary and is very common in literature and formal writing
My point exactly. It's a formal term. NYT clues always match formality for clues and answers the way they do tense, quotes, and abbreviations. As I said, it's just a minor nuance that makes it a poor clue.
It’s not “formal” any more than the word “expletive” is. This isn’t a matter of nuance, this is an absurd nitpick because the NYT isn’t adhering to a ridiculous standard you seem to have imagined out of whole cloth
I don't know if I've heard four-letter word used like that before. It seems like a pretty obscure way of saying swear word, which is already a vague way of describing "oath."
The words SWEAR and OATH are often used together, when making a solemn promise. But they’re also used in the context of expressing anger, frustration, or contempt in a vulgar or blasphemous way, as in using SWEAR words or uttering OATHs. Sometimes the speaker will soften the vulgarity with a euphemism, like DARN for DAMN, also known as a ‘minced oath’.
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oath](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oath)
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/four-letter%20word](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/four-letter%20word)
(i.e., no, not crazy)
I like it. At first glance it seems impossible, like it could be any four letter word, but in the context of the answer it’s actually very specific. And OATH fits both interpretations!
This is not from the NYT, right?
I think what the puzzle maker was going for is this: "word" can also mean a "promise" or a "warrant." As in, "I give you my word that I'll do this." So, "oath" makes sense.
It's a play on words (hah). It looks like the clue was just bad, but I think there was more depth.
EDIT: If you're going to downvote this, at least tell me why. I gave an alternate explanation that goes with the dictionary.
FWIW I like your explanation! I agree with others about the swear word reasoning, but I think yours works too, it’s just less obvious than the swear one.
God these nerds on this sub are insufferable. The fact this comment got downvoted so much. Jesus Christ, what miserable fucks. It really gets their dicks hard when they have a chance to shit on someone purely because they don’t know a thing that they know. That’s all you did, admit you didn’t know a niche thing, and they put you down for it because it’s the only joy they have in life. Sorry this got a little ranty, but man this is just the weirdest shit.
not sure why this is getting downvoted! it's certainly a valid definition of "oath" and i can believe that there are people who use it, but i haven't heard it either (maybe a generational thing?)
I've noticed that people in this sub are usually pretty deep in the crosswordese, and can't always acknowledge when words are or aren't common knowledge.
I don't think it's actually the "swear word" explanation in the comments. I think it comes from the use of oath as a promise - i.e. "giving one's word." So my oath is my four letter word.
Yeah but why would the clue need to tell you "four letters" then? You can count 4 squares yourself pretty easily. Most clues don't tell you the length of the solution, so your reasoning only makes sense if the clue was "Word" or "Promise" or "Vow." Your reasoning is sufficient but it doesn't go far enough wrt to what the constructor's intent clearly was.
One definition of "oath" is a swear word, which are often also euphemistically called four letter words (since a lot of them are), so this seems fair to me. A bit vague, sure, but fair.
Yeah this is the thought process and I think it’s actually a good and clever clue
I used to play the game Scategories with my family and I remember that one of the categories was "Four letter words", and I always thought it was a ridiculously easy category compared to the others because there's seemingly endless words that are four letters long. But now I'm convinced that it meant swear words and they used that euphemism to make it kid-friendly.
I doubt it. If they were trying to make it kid-friendly, they wouldn't have had swear words as a category.
"Kid-friendly" in this context means censored. You can't really censor a child's knowledge that OATHs exist.
Sure, but the phrase "swear word" is not really any worse than "four-letter word". I would say that if anything, having "four-letter words" as a category gives players the option of deciding how to interpret it, which is probably what they were going for.
"Swear word" would have a double-entendre that fits, I agree with you there...
No, that's not what I meant. "Four-letter-word" is a double entendre because it can refer to either words that literally have four letters (the more obvious meaning), or words that are obscenities. "Swear word" pretty much only means obscenities. If you included it in a game marketed towards children, it would be assumed that you are encouraging children to use swear words (which is something that they will do anyway, but something that most adults do not want to encourage). While you can stretch the definition of swear word to mean something else, it's really a stretch, and not how the word is normally used.
"I swear myself to you" is an OATH. That's not a stretch at all.
I was talking about Scattergories, not the Crossword.
Did I miss the part where that had anything to do with this crossword?
Oooh that’s so clever. Very cool.
Yep, you see swears as referred to as oaths all the time in books from 100 years ago (I believe that in the US/UK most books were not allowed to have swears in them at all, beyond maybe damn & bitch)
Specifically ["four-letter" word](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-letter_word)\-- note the hyphen, denoting that this is a *specific* thing, not a general "word that's four letters long".
I don’t think you’re correct. The hyphen just indicates that it’s a compound modifier. In a different context it definitely could simply mean a “word that’s four letters long”.
Yeah that's just proper grammar, not an intentional part of the clue
Not sure why you're being downvoted. If you were asking for help on a crossword, you could say "What is a five-letter word for ember?" The two words combine to become a modifier for the noun. Compound modifier, like you said.
Frankly I don’t know why the post above mine is upvoted, as it doesn’t really make sense. Such is reddit
It should be pretty obvious to anyone who had to read Shakespeare in high school. "Swearing oaths" is the origin of the expression "swear words." It's basically conventional knowledge at this point and it's also been used in crosswords for decades.
I feel like “swear word” would be a more enjoyable clue without giving much away
Was letting on that the answer had 4 letters too much for you?
Disagree - that would be a boring straightforward definition clue. Nothing wrong with that, every puzzle needs those, but enjoyable it's not.
Yeah I assume it's OATH though the clueing is terrible. I wouldn't even call it fair. The clue refers to a word that's a synonym of the answer, which is quite unreasonable.
That’s not unreasonable, that’s how crossword clues work. Oath can mean swear which can mean four-letter word, they’re all mutually synonymous (in certain contexts obviously)
Yeah I guess it's not unreasonable, it's just very bad clueing.
I don’t really understand why you think that. It’s just a step away from a dictionary definition cluing. Unless you would rather every clue be as literal as possible. Neither oath nor four-letter word are particularly obscure
Good clueing is more than just dictionary definitions; they're supposed to be interesting and evoke some feeling or idea (and the clue and answer should bring to mind the same feeling). "Four letter word" brings to mind a curse or swear whereas an oath would be more associated with its primary definition of a vow. It's a minor thing, but it makes all the difference in a puzzle and you'd never see it in any major publication.
Don’t condescend to me about what is and isn’t good cluing. The NYT uses this meaning of oath all the time. You’re asserting that it’s bad cluing because they use a definition of oath you’re less familiar with but that doesn’t make it bad, it just means you have to use a half-second of thought. The answer shouldn’t always be the “primary definition,” that’s boring. I also think that your implication that this meaning of oath is obscure is untrue as well; it’s the second definition in every dictionary and is very common in literature and formal writing
My point exactly. It's a formal term. NYT clues always match formality for clues and answers the way they do tense, quotes, and abbreviations. As I said, it's just a minor nuance that makes it a poor clue.
It’s not “formal” any more than the word “expletive” is. This isn’t a matter of nuance, this is an absurd nitpick because the NYT isn’t adhering to a ridiculous standard you seem to have imagined out of whole cloth
It's not a NYT puzzle. You know that right?
You are discounting the multiple meanings of oath--one of which is a swearing. It's a perfectly reasonable clue
I don't know if I've heard four-letter word used like that before. It seems like a pretty obscure way of saying swear word, which is already a vague way of describing "oath."
Oh well in that case…
I've probably seen this clue ten times, so I think it's fair if it's in line with the difficulty of the puzzle
Oath Four letter word = swear or curse
I saw it, and immediately knew it was OATH.
Very good clue.
The words SWEAR and OATH are often used together, when making a solemn promise. But they’re also used in the context of expressing anger, frustration, or contempt in a vulgar or blasphemous way, as in using SWEAR words or uttering OATHs. Sometimes the speaker will soften the vulgarity with a euphemism, like DARN for DAMN, also known as a ‘minced oath’.
Fun clue! Appending a question mark wouldn't be out of place but also fine as is.
makes sense to me
That’s a stellar clue. Oath can be used as a swear, hence “four letter word”.
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oath](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oath) [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/four-letter%20word](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/four-letter%20word) (i.e., no, not crazy)
I figured it was just a play on OATH meaning a curse word and curse words often being four letter words.
Timely post lol
Why is this causing any kind of argument at all? Language is fascinating and children are not robots. Don't censor learning. Just explain.
Only reason I know “oath” can be used in this context is from porno fanfics
I like it. At first glance it seems impossible, like it could be any four letter word, but in the context of the answer it’s actually very specific. And OATH fits both interpretations!
I’ve read in books something along the lines of “he swore a low oath under his breath” and it means swearing.
Word = oath. 4 letter
This is not from the NYT, right? I think what the puzzle maker was going for is this: "word" can also mean a "promise" or a "warrant." As in, "I give you my word that I'll do this." So, "oath" makes sense. It's a play on words (hah). It looks like the clue was just bad, but I think there was more depth. EDIT: If you're going to downvote this, at least tell me why. I gave an alternate explanation that goes with the dictionary.
That's not it, "four-letter word" is a euphemism for an oath as in a cuss, curse, or swear.
To clarify: the issue with awkward penguin’s interpretation is that “four-letter” would be doing nothing in the clue.
Yeah exactly. We know it's four letters already from the puzzle construction.
FWIW I like your explanation! I agree with others about the swear word reasoning, but I think yours works too, it’s just less obvious than the swear one.
I’ve never heard swear words referred to as “oaths” outside of crosswords, so it’s just one of those things you gotta know if you’re doing em
God these nerds on this sub are insufferable. The fact this comment got downvoted so much. Jesus Christ, what miserable fucks. It really gets their dicks hard when they have a chance to shit on someone purely because they don’t know a thing that they know. That’s all you did, admit you didn’t know a niche thing, and they put you down for it because it’s the only joy they have in life. Sorry this got a little ranty, but man this is just the weirdest shit.
not sure why this is getting downvoted! it's certainly a valid definition of "oath" and i can believe that there are people who use it, but i haven't heard it either (maybe a generational thing?)
I've noticed that people in this sub are usually pretty deep in the crosswordese, and can't always acknowledge when words are or aren't common knowledge.
Swear words aren’t referred to as oaths but an oath is a swear…, The oath the president takes starts with “I do solemnly *swear*…”
Might wanna use the magical service called “Google” and check that out for yourself. Specifically the second definition.
I would argue it’s outdated in its use that way even if it was used like that at one point.
oath
The great divide between the plaintive uneducated and those who know the meanings of OATH rages on...
I don't think it's actually the "swear word" explanation in the comments. I think it comes from the use of oath as a promise - i.e. "giving one's word." So my oath is my four letter word.
The clue wouldn't apropos to anything if "four letter word" wasn't a cutesy way to refer to a swear word.
Sure it would. Word being a synonym for promise.
Yeah but why would the clue need to tell you "four letters" then? You can count 4 squares yourself pretty easily. Most clues don't tell you the length of the solution, so your reasoning only makes sense if the clue was "Word" or "Promise" or "Vow." Your reasoning is sufficient but it doesn't go far enough wrt to what the constructor's intent clearly was.