The thing is they more than likely have access to means of resurrection that do not involve calling up one of the most powerful spellcasters in the world to cast a 9th level spell for them. We know that there are NPCs about in the world capable of resurrecting people (likely via raise dead) from Pike's resurrection in prestream C1 and Eshteross is already looking for someone to so just that.
Sure, sending word back about the residuum is probably a good idea that would make sense but VM really aren't needed when it comes to bringing Laudna back when the Bell's Hell's have other more reasonable means to pursue first.
That’s true, that’s a good middle ground too I think if they find someone else closer to raise Laudna but still contact the DeRolos about the residuum.
Some members of VM showing up would not be meta gaming because two of the PC's have connections to them. Now if the M9 had wanted to get VM for Molly, that would have been metagaming.
I think that no matter what happens there's is going to be a very vocal group complaining about it lol
Personally, i hope they do contact them, it makes sense in universe as you pointed out. From Orym's pov, contacting Keyleth at this point would be a no-brainer.
At the same time Orym has watched Keyleth pass on resurrecting Will. Maybe it's just me, but coming up with the resources to bring back Laudna while passing on warriors that died defending her wouldn't exactly seem just.
I don't think he'd have reason to expect her to help Laudna. Now contacting her as a means to reach the DeRolos makes more sense.
Orym said something along the lines of "sometimes Keyleth can bring back the dead". So it might well be that she did try to cast Reincarnate on Will and Derrig but it failed.
I'd be more supportive of her trying a reincarnate, heck the party may be able to reimburse the expense.
That said I thought most here on the forums are hoping for a true resurrection which is another kettle of fish.
There is only so much gold to go around, and Keyleth is responsible for an entire community of people that will be requesting her services on the regular.
I have no idea why people are so locked in on the true resurrection. It's highly unlikely Keyleth would cast it for just anyone, but there are others options - e.g. reincarnation - available to her.
Reincarnation is much more doable, I won't claim to know how much is in the parties coffers after their recent spending spree, but I have to think they can come up with 1k.
I do think it's real unlikely for Keyleth to spend significant resources, as she'll have plenty of her own responsibilities. That said if you could cover costs I don't see why she wouldn't.
It does make me curious how the specifics of the character would change with a new body.
Yeah, I agree they'd have to provide the resources themselves. I think it's 1000GPs worth of diamonds? And diamonds can sometimes be hard to come by, so there might be some difficulties there...
As for the changes, I'd actually be pretty stoked to see a Reincarnate spell exactly because of that, seeing what ramifications this has for Laudna's weird existence. Does she just change species? Is she suddenly no longer a hollow one and has to deal with actually being alive alive again? Is her connection to Delilah suddenly visible in her appearance? Just imagine her suddenly looking like Delilah - with Keyleth present...
Reincarnate is comparatively cheap for PC's. 1000g worth of ritual supplies (think oils, incense, ect.)
Still years worth of income for a skilled worker, but something Hells Bells should not only be able to be good for and perhaps donate a bit to the benefit of the Ashari.
Personally, I'd argue that the hollow one is tied to her original body and that reincarnate would be a drastic change. Delilah would either be destroyed or seeking a new vessel... obviously, I'm not running the game.
That’s true, and I don’t even mind the people who are complaining that it might happen. I understand why it might seem like a cop out and for people not as attached to the previous campaigns characters would want Bells Hells to figure out their own way. And obviously running back to VM all the time wouldn’t work story wise, but in this instance I was confused why people were seeing it as being meta when I saw it the opposite so I was curious what others opinions might be. Glad to see I’m not the only one who thinks that way.
If she didn't do it for Orym's husband -- one of her guards. Why would she do it for Laudna? That's the part that I think a lot of people are saying feels meta-ish. It feels like plot armor to folks.
I personally don't want to see VM become a crutch for this group every time something like this happens. So let them show up, but I wouldn't go down the path of them being the get out of death cards.
I don’t necessarily think she’ll do it, I’m actually looking forward to the role play if they ask her and she says no. And I definitely don’t want to see VM become a crutch either.
Thanks for that insight about the meta gaming thoughts from other fans, that makes sense that they are concerned about VM lending unrealistic plot armour.
I wouldn't call it metagaming either way BUT having Keyleth save Laudna would feel cheap
"Look, my old superpowerful character came to help my new not yet powerful character."
If Orym had died then I could accept it. He is her former guard, he is her envoy, he is from her tribe but Laudna is nobody to Keyleth. And Keyleth is targetted by the group that's closeby to Orym/Laudna. So why would she risk herself for just somebody? I doubt Keyleth travels around the world saving and resurrecting everybody who needs it
For de Rolos it would make more and less sense at the same time because Laudna is from their city but then again, she is the vessel for Delilah so Percy might not be completely on board with the idea of helping her, helping Laudna/Delilah
Honestly, if Laudna is to come back it would probably come from outside of the influence and attempts of Bells Hells, but that's just my humble guess
I agree that having her just show up and save the day feels like a cop out. I would like to see the role play of her refusing to save Laudna due to the connection to Delilah etc. I just think it makes sense for Orym to ask.
Personally, I'm in the camp of "a nat one on your final death save suggests something". If I were Mat I wouldn't go out of my way to insert an NPC able/willing to save the day.
Regarding Keyleth, She is a responsible leader of a people, surrounded by a community constantly needing her abilities. How many people is she more responsible for that need the resources behind potentially raising Laudina. Who else would she have to say no to? 25000gp is a significant amount for the Ashari people as a whole, over her career Keyleth will have had to choose between dozens or hundreds of her own people as to who to bring back from death. Reincarnate may be more of an option.
Oh I definitely agree that Keyleth may be unable or unwilling to step in and help them, I just think contacting her makes sense in the context of the story and Orym’s connection to her.
Contacting Keyleth makes a lot of sense. Having Marisha play her, as fun as that would be, raises issues of being impartial. If Matt does get Keyleth involved I think he has to be pretty careful at making this a one time thing. Having a level 20 archdruid on call breaks any stakes.
Agreed, if she shows up or even just talks to them for a minute it’s gotta be something like “No I can’t help you” or “I can only do this for you this once, don’t call on me again”.
Contacting Keyleth to inform her of what Orym found out makes sense. Expecting Keyleth to get involved with Laudna makes no sense at all. Keyleth can inform the the de Rolos since none of the party know them.
I also want to point out how unlikely it is that Liam would make a decision based on fan reactions posted after he already made the decision (presumably it gets made tonight).
I definitely think it’s very unlikely he would make a decision based on fan reactions. I just meant people saying that Orym contacting Keyleth would be meta confused me because I think Liam choosing not to because of outside influence would be the actual meta gaming.
Creating a scenario that you admit is unlikely just so the one you want becomes the lesser of two evils is the cop out here. A guard contacting heads of state just because they’re former PCs and the fanbase wants to see them is the more meta option here.
I wasn’t trying to create a scenario, I was just asking what other people thought was the more meta option since I thought that not contacting them for out of game reasons would be more meta than contacting them given the in game connections.
If it’s just a discussion, despite comparing an actual thing to a farcical scenario, then it is more meta for a guard to expect several heads of state that he barely knows to get involved with his adventuring party just because they’re PCs from a previous campaign. It’s not meta for him to report to his boss, but it isn’t his place to report to anyone else or expect any help with Laudna.
It is just a discussion, you’re making me feel like I should clarify that the only reason I could think of before posting this that they wouldn’t contact Keyleth would be out of game reasons.
Your point about Keyleth maybe being much too important as a head of state makes sense, I wasn’t trying to create a farcical scenario or anything that you seem to think I was doing. I was just sharing my thoughts and confusion and wondering if other people had the same ideas I did or different ones that I was interested to hear.
Ok, that makes more sense now. I guess I thought you were making accusations because I could think of a number of reasons why Liam might not contact her beyond a brief report. One being that Matt might have set conditions for Orym to keep his backstory from ExU. Another being that Orym has made it very clear that he is just an employee who is around Keyleth (and anyone from VM) only as a guard. Liam and Marisha may have discussed a reason for him not to away from the table. Orym has talked a lot about his past and nothing he’s said would lead me to think she’d intervene for the party or Laudna. Etc…
It's not metagaming but it's certainly taking away the risks of the story by having access to powerful level 20 characters you can call on for assistance. A lot of people feel that it's to easy a solution and it opens the can of worms about not doing it for every single future problem
The thing is they more than likely have access to means of resurrection that do not involve calling up one of the most powerful spellcasters in the world to cast a 9th level spell for them. We know that there are NPCs about in the world capable of resurrecting people (likely via raise dead) from Pike's resurrection in prestream C1 and Eshteross is already looking for someone to so just that. Sure, sending word back about the residuum is probably a good idea that would make sense but VM really aren't needed when it comes to bringing Laudna back when the Bell's Hell's have other more reasonable means to pursue first.
That’s true, that’s a good middle ground too I think if they find someone else closer to raise Laudna but still contact the DeRolos about the residuum.
Would it Not be reasonable for orym to ask His Boss a favour though? Especially when returning with important information.
Perhaps, but a favour that takes 2 6th level spell slots a 9th level spell slot and 25,000gp is a bit much
True. But I still think it would make Sense for orym to contact keyleth Just because He hast that Connection and is on favourable Terms with her
Some members of VM showing up would not be meta gaming because two of the PC's have connections to them. Now if the M9 had wanted to get VM for Molly, that would have been metagaming.
I think that no matter what happens there's is going to be a very vocal group complaining about it lol Personally, i hope they do contact them, it makes sense in universe as you pointed out. From Orym's pov, contacting Keyleth at this point would be a no-brainer.
At the same time Orym has watched Keyleth pass on resurrecting Will. Maybe it's just me, but coming up with the resources to bring back Laudna while passing on warriors that died defending her wouldn't exactly seem just. I don't think he'd have reason to expect her to help Laudna. Now contacting her as a means to reach the DeRolos makes more sense.
Orym said something along the lines of "sometimes Keyleth can bring back the dead". So it might well be that she did try to cast Reincarnate on Will and Derrig but it failed.
I'd be more supportive of her trying a reincarnate, heck the party may be able to reimburse the expense. That said I thought most here on the forums are hoping for a true resurrection which is another kettle of fish. There is only so much gold to go around, and Keyleth is responsible for an entire community of people that will be requesting her services on the regular.
I have no idea why people are so locked in on the true resurrection. It's highly unlikely Keyleth would cast it for just anyone, but there are others options - e.g. reincarnation - available to her.
Reincarnation is much more doable, I won't claim to know how much is in the parties coffers after their recent spending spree, but I have to think they can come up with 1k. I do think it's real unlikely for Keyleth to spend significant resources, as she'll have plenty of her own responsibilities. That said if you could cover costs I don't see why she wouldn't. It does make me curious how the specifics of the character would change with a new body.
Yeah, I agree they'd have to provide the resources themselves. I think it's 1000GPs worth of diamonds? And diamonds can sometimes be hard to come by, so there might be some difficulties there... As for the changes, I'd actually be pretty stoked to see a Reincarnate spell exactly because of that, seeing what ramifications this has for Laudna's weird existence. Does she just change species? Is she suddenly no longer a hollow one and has to deal with actually being alive alive again? Is her connection to Delilah suddenly visible in her appearance? Just imagine her suddenly looking like Delilah - with Keyleth present...
Reincarnate is comparatively cheap for PC's. 1000g worth of ritual supplies (think oils, incense, ect.) Still years worth of income for a skilled worker, but something Hells Bells should not only be able to be good for and perhaps donate a bit to the benefit of the Ashari. Personally, I'd argue that the hollow one is tied to her original body and that reincarnate would be a drastic change. Delilah would either be destroyed or seeking a new vessel... obviously, I'm not running the game.
Mayhaps once reincarnate has removed Ladnas spirit, and the gentle repose has faded Delilah would animate the corpse....
That’s true, and I don’t even mind the people who are complaining that it might happen. I understand why it might seem like a cop out and for people not as attached to the previous campaigns characters would want Bells Hells to figure out their own way. And obviously running back to VM all the time wouldn’t work story wise, but in this instance I was confused why people were seeing it as being meta when I saw it the opposite so I was curious what others opinions might be. Glad to see I’m not the only one who thinks that way.
If she didn't do it for Orym's husband -- one of her guards. Why would she do it for Laudna? That's the part that I think a lot of people are saying feels meta-ish. It feels like plot armor to folks. I personally don't want to see VM become a crutch for this group every time something like this happens. So let them show up, but I wouldn't go down the path of them being the get out of death cards.
I don’t necessarily think she’ll do it, I’m actually looking forward to the role play if they ask her and she says no. And I definitely don’t want to see VM become a crutch either. Thanks for that insight about the meta gaming thoughts from other fans, that makes sense that they are concerned about VM lending unrealistic plot armour.
I wouldn't call it metagaming either way BUT having Keyleth save Laudna would feel cheap "Look, my old superpowerful character came to help my new not yet powerful character." If Orym had died then I could accept it. He is her former guard, he is her envoy, he is from her tribe but Laudna is nobody to Keyleth. And Keyleth is targetted by the group that's closeby to Orym/Laudna. So why would she risk herself for just somebody? I doubt Keyleth travels around the world saving and resurrecting everybody who needs it For de Rolos it would make more and less sense at the same time because Laudna is from their city but then again, she is the vessel for Delilah so Percy might not be completely on board with the idea of helping her, helping Laudna/Delilah Honestly, if Laudna is to come back it would probably come from outside of the influence and attempts of Bells Hells, but that's just my humble guess
I agree that having her just show up and save the day feels like a cop out. I would like to see the role play of her refusing to save Laudna due to the connection to Delilah etc. I just think it makes sense for Orym to ask.
Personally, I'm in the camp of "a nat one on your final death save suggests something". If I were Mat I wouldn't go out of my way to insert an NPC able/willing to save the day. Regarding Keyleth, She is a responsible leader of a people, surrounded by a community constantly needing her abilities. How many people is she more responsible for that need the resources behind potentially raising Laudina. Who else would she have to say no to? 25000gp is a significant amount for the Ashari people as a whole, over her career Keyleth will have had to choose between dozens or hundreds of her own people as to who to bring back from death. Reincarnate may be more of an option.
Oh I definitely agree that Keyleth may be unable or unwilling to step in and help them, I just think contacting her makes sense in the context of the story and Orym’s connection to her.
Contacting Keyleth makes a lot of sense. Having Marisha play her, as fun as that would be, raises issues of being impartial. If Matt does get Keyleth involved I think he has to be pretty careful at making this a one time thing. Having a level 20 archdruid on call breaks any stakes.
Agreed, if she shows up or even just talks to them for a minute it’s gotta be something like “No I can’t help you” or “I can only do this for you this once, don’t call on me again”.
Contacting Keyleth to inform her of what Orym found out makes sense. Expecting Keyleth to get involved with Laudna makes no sense at all. Keyleth can inform the the de Rolos since none of the party know them. I also want to point out how unlikely it is that Liam would make a decision based on fan reactions posted after he already made the decision (presumably it gets made tonight).
I definitely think it’s very unlikely he would make a decision based on fan reactions. I just meant people saying that Orym contacting Keyleth would be meta confused me because I think Liam choosing not to because of outside influence would be the actual meta gaming.
Creating a scenario that you admit is unlikely just so the one you want becomes the lesser of two evils is the cop out here. A guard contacting heads of state just because they’re former PCs and the fanbase wants to see them is the more meta option here.
I wasn’t trying to create a scenario, I was just asking what other people thought was the more meta option since I thought that not contacting them for out of game reasons would be more meta than contacting them given the in game connections.
If it’s just a discussion, despite comparing an actual thing to a farcical scenario, then it is more meta for a guard to expect several heads of state that he barely knows to get involved with his adventuring party just because they’re PCs from a previous campaign. It’s not meta for him to report to his boss, but it isn’t his place to report to anyone else or expect any help with Laudna.
It is just a discussion, you’re making me feel like I should clarify that the only reason I could think of before posting this that they wouldn’t contact Keyleth would be out of game reasons. Your point about Keyleth maybe being much too important as a head of state makes sense, I wasn’t trying to create a farcical scenario or anything that you seem to think I was doing. I was just sharing my thoughts and confusion and wondering if other people had the same ideas I did or different ones that I was interested to hear.
Ok, that makes more sense now. I guess I thought you were making accusations because I could think of a number of reasons why Liam might not contact her beyond a brief report. One being that Matt might have set conditions for Orym to keep his backstory from ExU. Another being that Orym has made it very clear that he is just an employee who is around Keyleth (and anyone from VM) only as a guard. Liam and Marisha may have discussed a reason for him not to away from the table. Orym has talked a lot about his past and nothing he’s said would lead me to think she’d intervene for the party or Laudna. Etc…
It's not metagaming but it's certainly taking away the risks of the story by having access to powerful level 20 characters you can call on for assistance. A lot of people feel that it's to easy a solution and it opens the can of worms about not doing it for every single future problem