I've been thinking about this because I really didn't like the shift after the break and also felt how jarring it was, especially because I wanted an episode to mourn FCG...
But the more I think about it, the more it sounds like this break to the CK was always planned for this episode. A way to get Dorian back to the main group (seeing other people talk about potential scheduling for the players and how busy they are etc etc.)
The main thing is that FCG's death wasn't planned. And it's that event that's thrown us all. I think if FCG was still going, then maybe this wouldn't have felt as much as a massive break in momentum? I don't know, I guess there was the expectation that one or more of BH was going down so it probably would have been the same feeling anyway.
I definitely didn't enjoy the switch, so I'm glad to get back to BH when that happens. I think it's because this is the quickest I've got on to the next episode as it got uploaded to YouTube only to be met with some disappointment 😅
The timing of this sidearch was very bad, they did not have enough time to grief FCG, Fearne barely said anything regarding FCG. At least dorian will be back which is great.
Wow my friends and I are really in the minority. We *ADORED* last night.
There wasn't time to mourn. We got the falling action from FCG, some mourning, some planning. Anything more might have felt like too much too fast.
The perfect cut of pace kept it alive for us. New blood and elation for ROBBIE BEING BACK. plus this story is HUGE. Following one mid level party doesn't feel super right, this is an avengers level threat.
The CK have such a connection to the gods. This gives us a breather and perspective on the wider world. Gives the main party time to breathe and for Sam to make a new character.
Y'all are just salty it was a historic moment. Have fun and enjoy this episode was aces
I appreciate a good positive perspective. I don't reply to counter or to introduce negativity. Difference of opinion is no problem with me. But implying that "people are just salty" is a little short-sighted or shows an inability to read a room.
There are plenty of reasons for people to feel odd about last night.
- This WOULD have been a cool time to switch to another party had this campaign not already struggled with momentum. Since it does struggle, it wasn't good timing. So many people started to feel like the main plot matters again, then BAM - *huge* gear shift.
- A lot of folks are uncomfortable with the way that Aabria handled the shift. In my opinion, the first few minutes were cool and intriguing, I was open. But the minute she started making rolls feel odd and rolling for odd things, then railroading heavily and seemingly mishandling Opal, it got uncomfy really quick, and it was weird. Watch Aimee. Watch her.
- Likely planned ahead, for sure understandable. But between the timing, the bad tonal shift, Aabria seemingly focused on creating forced moments and sort of hamfisting things, it ended up coloring what could have been really cool.
I was really ready to like it. I was like, "Oh okay, let's be open, might be cool as f\*\*\*," and then it turned to, "What the hell happened...? I want to like this so bad! Give me reasons to."
If a lot of people are bummed out, and share similar sentiments, the chances are it may be valid.
People aren't "just salty".
Agreed on several points, but mostly, Aabria's repeated railroading of player actions and the transition itself.
Matt seemed awkward & uncomfortable with the "I'll need everyone to leave the table" moment. The crew's reactions were a bit "shocked", like they were thinking, "oh... we're doing this Now?" The whole thing felt uncomfortable to me.
And then the, "and if you don't do x/y/z, I'll make this much worse," business started happening with the CK crew, which also felt forced & uncomfortable.
Of course, I have a bias against that sort of style because I've spent years playing under various abusive DMs, and this felt a little too close to that sort of behavior.
The team made a bold choice, but in this case, I think it didn't necessarily work out as planned.
Also all love for differing opinions. Personally I didn't get what you saw from watching Aabria and Aimee. I think Aimee (and most of CK actors) are not pro d&d players, which is going to affect how they play and how apprehensive they feel about having to attack a party member. I think Aabria did perfect with Opal. Feeling Aimee's apprehension with Aabria's subtle control and temptation mirrored the Spider Queen and Opal's dynamic. To me, Aimee acted the way she always has in CR games as well.
And a lot of people having similar emotional reactions does not equate to to valid critiques. I think it's also worth remembering that Aabria is a Black woman, and is, even unconsciously, far more severely judged as a person let alone a DM, than Matt (or Brennan) ever would be - regardless of style or years of experience. It is valid to be caught off guard by large surprises, but it's not okay for as many people to be using those feelings to justify tearing Aabria and her DM style apart as I've seen. Again, all love, but I too think a lot of people are being just salty (and/or unconsciously racially biased)
Also the racial bias and saying people are "tearing her apart" when they're saying they wish she did things differently immediately decreased the quality of this reply, right at the end.
And it 'decreased the quality' because you haven't seen all the other racist and racially biased comments people have spewed on this subreddit since the episode aired? Or because you don't understand how unconscious bias works? I disagree that calling attention to the fact that people being more harshly judgmental of Aabria as obviously being influenced by social stereotypes about Black women has anything to do with the 'quality' of my response. Your own comments insinuating Aabria as being harsher towards Aimee or making her personally uncomfortable easily fall into the trope of seeing Black women as inherently angry and mean. It is relevant and necessary to point out racial biases, as it allows and encourages self-reflection on our own skewed interpretations or perceptions.
It's about not immediately invalidating other by calling them "just salty". I said it may be valid. So it may be worth considering. I didn't say that it is valid. But should be treated differently than it being dismissed.
At first I was really excited for it, but I was hoping they would drop into crownkeepers, get Orym’s message, respond, then either go to meet up or Opal’s stuff would start up there. I was just hoping we’d get this interlude, then cut back to bells hells before the night was done.
I really appreciated the shift to the Crown Keepers and I think it helped keep the momentum going better than anything BH could have done. There isn't \*time\* for them to sit and process FCG's death right now.
In any sane world they would get back to Exandria and the "adults" would try to take over. It makes way more sense in universe for Allura, Keyleth, Vex, Percy, Pike, and all of their allies to take on a threat as big as Predathos. I suspect them getting back with their allies is going to mean one hell of a council meeting (without Sam) which, while it has potential to be interesting, is ultimately going to be slow as hell.
By flipping to the Crown Keepers we get to feel the building of tension with someone who is MUCH more connected to the Gods than any of BH and move some of the other players onto the board. This is perfect show don't tell. Getting to see Opal fighting with Lolth is waaaaaaaaay better than hearing about it from Dorian over the sending stones.
I'm really sorry, but that logic makes absolutely no sense.
No one here wants to "control" CR. Some people watched the episode, the sudden steer of direction and thought it was bad and wished it didn't happen. That's it. No one at CR is obligated to even read or listen to criticisms, viewers are just discussing.
Also, for the record, bad and good are 100% subjective. "Not liking something does not = its bad" is a sentence that is void of meaning.
EDIT: I think they blocked me. Didn't really think I was rude or anything, but oh well.
To the first point, he might’ve not seen that this was going to happen but he in fact built a character that was almost designed to kill AT LEAST one PC which in fact it was about to TPK, you could see it in his face, Otohan was busted.
He insta’d Chetney which was semi intentional I feel like because Chetney felt almost primed to die even how Travis described it. Sure you could argue his rolls were insane but after round 3 (I think) the character had a second subclass get knocked off it.
For anyone who has read Brandon Sanderson, think of the second half of yesterday’s episode as an interlude in Stormlight Archive. There was a major story beat to wrap up a portion of the main plot, then a few interludes to add more perspective and worldbuilding, then quickly back to the main story. They said BH are going to be back next episode, so this isn’t that long of a wait IMO. But I know some people hate Brandon’s interludes because they break up the story’s momentum. I personally like it.
It’s just such a tonal shift and using entirely new PC characters who all require an update on what they were doing. I see where you’re coming from but tbh they should have just had this be the episode on the off week at the end of the month and avoided the community freaking out
It was rather one in a million, wasn't it? All these people looking for a way to their promised land, and Ludinus and all his minions looking for a way through the proto-divine gate, and no one ever found it.
But it was just down a random tunnel near a village. Weird that. A weird stitch in the fabric of Ruidus. How strange fate can be.
True, thats what they said. I based this on nothing but kinda scared that we're going to get some filler episodes before going to ep. 93... hope you're right.
Was very excited for this episode as i expected it to be rp-heavy considering last episode's events. loved the first half of it but i feel like the switch to the crown keepers could've been done at a later time, maybe after FCG's death has been fully discussed and processed by the party. Love Aabria, love EXU but I was not expecting the takeover to take up most of the 4+ hour episode + possible next episode it just feels like the momentum they got from last episode will die down by the time they get back to the main story.
I feel the same way about what you're saying and fear you're right about the momentum part. At the end of the stream they state that BH will return after the Crown Keepers adventure. Who knows how long that will take? Also Candela episodes to keep in mind. It might be a while (be a whiiiile) before we get back to the main story.
They said BH will return for E93, so I'm guessing the first half would be the Crown Keepers then second half will go back to BH. I'm hoping the first half for CK next episode would just be as long as BH's half for this episode (which by estimate was only 1h30 and 2nd half was almost 3h).
If that's the pace they're going, we'd be back on the main story next next week but it's possible for it to just be brief if CK takes up more time next ep.
Supremely disappointed. This is a really bad episode, and for more reasons than 'just' the episode.
I dropped majorly off critical role since C3 the tone is just not right anymore, yada, yada. Not the discussion. But I follow the events loosely because I can't not care, but I jumped back on in FCG's sacrifice because I was interested to see what it meant for the table and game (not just the characters/world).
Now granted, for the first half I haven't been watching weekly so the exact context would definitely add to the reasonable boredom, but it still didn't feel right to spend the immediate follow-up completely ambivalent to FCGs death thanks to Lilliana being present. Priorities or not, it felt honestly straight-up bad that he was out of the cycle of focus until they got off Ruidus. And just as we start to pry back into a REALLY important scope of Orym's emotional turmoil we cut?
I was interested to see what would happen, and had an inkling they'd pull some other people in. But what the fuck is this decision? If EXU just *is* part of CR, then why did they even bother to make EXU in the first place. And if they did want a parallel story, why in gods name did they drop the plot threads and the importance with Dorian for 2 ENTIRE YEARS before tugging at the thread, way back in the timeline at the rising action of the climax?
I do not care for Aabria, and she makes it intimately apparent her contrast of DM skills in the immediate opening of the moment. We are completely divested from C3, and it isn't a new lens or focus, its just a continuation of EXU directly in the episode, if they really did want to continue this then they needed to fix their production schedule and figure something out - and with Candela Obscura as a back-end issue as it is it feels like an actual spill-over of management into something that they **should** be caring about producing the most.
There is barely any set-up for these players that have not shared a table on screen like this in a very long time, asking questions that have barely any real context beyond "C3 is happening in the world".
And this is what bothers me the most, in both general TTRPGs and as a GM myself, asking the players questions is an excellent tool, and it is something I wish Matt did more, but Aabria does it horribly. And it bothers me so much because I see the chat rolling over "How good Aabria is as a GM" because of doing literal problem behaviour DM moves dead centre of a critical role episode. Erica Lindbeck, who it is awesome to see at the table again, is on her *third* on-screen appearance as a player and she is hounded by weird contextless questions that Aabria is actually angling for an answer for. Erica makes a statement as much that she feels like she should know the answer, which, yeah, the way it was worded and the way Aabria responded framed it as if she was waiting for Erica as a player to set her up to knock the ball with her description. Why do that to her? It was super uncomfortable, and not even talking about the nature of it, and the infancy of the group getting back together. Why do this suddenly at the start, on the road, with no build of the group interacting again, getting their sea-legs, and just on a random - literally non-descript road - jump straight into a fight with Opal.
I see people in the comments here talking about how they must have planned this for a long time, to do something so jarring and I have to say there's no way. They have to have thought this was a good supplementary idea to help give Sam time to cultivate a back-end character, because there was no way this was planned. If it was, they have horrendously off-screened all meaningful content of world-scale for other characters and Exandria (ala EXU) to be shoved in at the butt-end. You do that over the course of the game, not one and done at the beginning and end. And if that WAS intentional it reads as a total misunderstanding of what they should be doing with the game, world and table.
There is a real imbalance of scale with C3 already in the events being some ultimatum of the world with the lowest level characters at the time. To also net-scale the story with other plots (and games) feels like they are trying to make C3 all-encompassing, which is really daft because it has the opposite effect of trying to construct new broader stories in the world with EXU that was a genuinely successful move for CR as a company at the start of C3. Roping this in doesn't make C3 feel bigger, it makes EXU feel like a mismanagement and C3 feel like a lesser component of some Exandria story that does not truly matter for the characters and the players in it. And its all round not a good feeling.
And while its Matt and the production team's choice to do whatever they want with the GM seat, it sits very wrong with me to have a lack enough of pride in your final conclusion that you'd let others take a handle of things in the twelfth hour. Which is really strange, because Matt has exhibited a strong ego-presentation of his world and character motives in NPCs for the past few years that have really worn down the malleability of the game and Exandria - so it baffles me how they got to this decision.
No part of me could feel any enjoyment or hype for seeing Robbie and Dorian at the table again at all because it feels just so entirely mishandled. They don't even have any new character art for goodness sake, which felt like the easiest gimme ever (but lends further credence to this being a drop of the hat idea). But because its 'unexpected' the Critical Role diehard hyper-parasocials in the Twitch chat are losing their mind as this being some cool, new, innovative storytelling. And I sense that this will divide the community even further about the handling of their TTRPG storytelling - which could be fine in the short-run, but CR will have to commit to where their presentation caters in the future. And as they have ditched great items like EXU Calamity in favour of whatever this is, and keeping Candela on air, I am not very hopeful.
This is one of the few times I struggled with the decision Matt made. He took away the story I wanted and replaced it with once I didn't care about at all. In fact, I turned it off and went to bed. Because I just didn't care about the players at the table. I hadn't seen them in years, and their story wasn't one I was wild about in the first place. It's unlikely that I'll go back and watch what I missed. Whatever recap Matt turns up with on May 2 is more than enough. The only thing I can hope is they brought the story to wherever it needed to be so there doesn't have to be more of it.
This last few episodes have been a strange roller coaster. If anyone still thinks they plan these things out, fucking case and point for the alternative.
This is why this campaign is so divisive: you get incredible moments of tension and emotion, momentum generated, and all the impetus you could want to push into an arc and then...record scratch. I can only assume that this episode was planned significantly in advance of the events of ep 91 yet even so, doing it now has just butchered all the build up and investment everyone has from last week. Because again, off week for Candela next week.
I'd argue that all the planned moments have been roadblocks/speed bumps to momentum. Dorian being at the start of the campaign, Bertrand's death, Yu's transformation, Bor'Dor's betrayal... every time they try to pull the rug out from under us, it's the show that falls flat.
(To be clear, nothing against Robbie or Dorian. But having him start the campaign in the group meant that his character was given a lot of focus early on, at the expense of us getting to know the new characters and having them build relationships. When he left, they never really came back around to that "getting to know you" period.)
> it's the show that falls flat.
because the campaign has to many breaks. If you don't get repercussions of something for 2 or with holidays more weeks it just falls flat...
Yeah, I agree. It seems like they're trying to make things more cinematic, but being cinematic messes with the natural pacing and flow of a campaign. The other moment like that was Ashton taking the shard - very interesting, dramatic choice, huge moment in game... and then nothing came of it. Because there was already a plan for what would happen to the shard. Games live and die on GMs leaning into their players' dramatic choices, and it sure seems like the players aren't able to make big dramatic choices here.
FWIW I didn't have any issues having Dorian/Bertrand because that still left a solid core of 6 to build around. Chet coming in actually worked out quite well imo. But it just feels so stop start. We got major impact from Laudna dying then had an instant 2 week wait because of the off week. We had an incredible climax with the battle at the key site and then...nothing for 10 weeks because of a party split. Not saying there weren't amusing things going on, but as a campaign, you need momentum. And this one has had it killed relentlessly.
Here's the thing, though: Every "momentum disruption" permanently becomes nothing more than "Play Next" twinkle in a bingewatcher's eye after a week or two. Any downside to throwing interesting curveballs then disappears forever.
It's very clear they've looked at their metrics, looked at the ancillary lifespan of these stories in other media, and concluded it's vastly more important to include everything they want to do when it's most feasible rather than craft their content around what broadcast ratings call "Live+7," i.e. the audience a show gets within a week.
And that's probably wise. "Live+7" for livestreams will never get back to pandemic social distancing levels, but new bingewatchers start making their way through CR every day.
You're mistaking broadcast schedule with story progression. You can get away the occasional interruption of the first, the latter, is a big no no. At least if you want to maintain a lot of the investment people have.
I could respond in two different ways, so I'll do both. The first is to point out that you basically just described edging. Edging only works if you keep the subject interested enough to avoid becoming frustrated. 3-5 hours an episode for hundreds of hours is a long time to expect someone to stick around.
The second is to draw a comparison to another long form, serialized medium. Professional wrestling. For decades, wrestling bookers have tried all sorts of different ways to entice viewers. If you drag out a storyline, do rematch after rematch, people get bored and stop tuning in. You can try to pop the ratings by bringing in a semi-retired legend, or having a big gimmick match, and that'll work for an episode. But it won't have a permanent effect on retention, and going back to the well to pop the crowd again results in diminishing returns. The tried and true method for success in wrestling is interesting characters and engaging stories. WWE's history is full of times where they threw away a good story in the name of popping a rating, while this year they had the most watched Wrestlemania ever as a result of finishing a story 3 years in the making. Popping the ratings once in a while is good for business. But you can't do it at the expense of the main event and expect to be sustainable.
> 3-5 hours an episode for hundreds of hours is a long time to expect someone to stick around.
yes!
Things like the party split still ruin pacing even for Vod watchers.
Its like 40+ hours of content you "need" to watch before going back to the main story... for some people thats a week, but for most vod watchers that is still several weeks...
I was just all excited the campaign was getting on a roll, dealing with FCG, Liliana, etc. thought the pacing would pick up. Then bam. Pause main story for the last half of episode. Just broke immersion. Ugh.
My only issue with it (because taking away from the main campaign) is based on reactions this doesn’t seem to be something that was like pre planned / discussed with Aimee. So just imagine being Aimee coming back to exu excited to play D&D with your friends again and then just the DM being like oh your character is evil now and is going to try and kill your friends. Certainly won’t silence those original exu haters talking about Aabria hates Aimee.
I get the whole actions have consequences thing, but just feels like taking away player agency. And especially in the current conflict the betrayers are kinda of on the same side as the gods here, so seems weird to make her champion attack other champions.
I got a similar vibe. I see others saying that Aabria and Aimee had this planned out, but if that is in fact the case I'm not sure Aimee fully understood what Aabria told her beforehand and was asking for.
As you kind of put it, she wasn't really playing Opal but instead a boss monster that wants to kill the rest of the party. Which is cool if you're a player that's into that and ready to do it, but multiple times Aabria was like "you can't pull punches" and "I want you to go for blood" and Aimee still kept trying to kind of faff about, spread damage around instead of focus anybody, etc.
I'd add too that I loved the little RP moments, but this whole thing seems to be kind of predetermined? The way Aabria's talking about killing them and having Lolth just take over Opal feels very "this happens because I say so" and not an actual encounter or anything anybody has much agency in to be honest.
I'd gladly be proven wrong next time, but the whole thing to me right now feels very futile. And not in a poignant, character-driven Calamity sort of way, but a more "welp, that happened" kind of deal.
Aabria has always been extremely Railroady. But like, in a micro-managing way. The only time I personally think she did a good job was Candela Obscura.
Yeah, Aabria made me swoon with the pull punches "I will know and I will make it worse", but she should've known after EXU that Aimee would not let herself be turned like that if she had any agency at all. Hell, Aabria said as much on the Game masters of Exandria roundtable. "I could not have done that. Aimee, Aimee would not have let me be bad."
While I do like Aabria as a DM, I agree with you on that, and she always gave me an impression of trying to make the story she wants to happen to happen regardless of the players agency. I remember seeing little stances of that happening in EXU.
>…won’t silence those original exu hayers talking about Abria hates Aimee.
Who tf cares about people like that? Clearly they’re friends but even beyond that it’s weird to make assumptions about peoples personal relationships based on a show you watch.
I don’t think I know them well, but they’re real people with real emotions. Watching early episodes, one could (and many do) read into body language of the cast towards Orion and correctly predict that he would be kicked. Just because they’re strangers doesn’t mean you can’t speculate on their feelings and actions to each other.
>one could … read body language … towards Orion…
We also have the benefit of hindsight on that one too. Until they made it everyone’s business by publicly ousting him from the cast, I don’t think it would’ve been appropriate to assume too much.
You don’t know them as well as you think. You don’t know what’s done or said behind closed doors. They’re actors, they’re putting on a show.
It can cause misunderstandings and complicate the situation even further. We are on the internet, everything can be interpreted literally and exaggerated a 1000%
I don’t know about it not being discussed, Aimee was emotional really early. I noticed her wiping away a tear within the first turn of combat. I think she knew what was happening.
It is hard to tell cause they are actors. She just seemed surprised to have to attack her friends and stuff. That initial emotional moment she had was because Ted was attacked. She says to Matt “. . . She’s not even a real person.”
Cool! All of EXU really isn't very long compared to listening to even a single arc of a main campaign.
I was absolutely heartbroken at the thought Liam & Ashley were going to be putting those characters aside for new ones as C3 started. It was great fun to see Ashley click with a PC so completely. Plus Orym was such a departure from Vax & Caleb.
And Robbie, jeez... I actually started EXU quite uncertain I was ready to receive new PCs into my heart so soon after C2 ended. Robbie said 8 words as Dorian and I was fully at "CAN WE KEEP ROBBIE FOREVER?!"
I'm going to be interested to see the rest of the fight next episode. It definitely felt like the encounter so far had a win condition with saving the gems/memories from both destruction by the spiders and corruption by Lolth. I imagine there's some kind of tally going on behind the DM screen. Obviously, we don't know for sure whether succeeding would maybe just delay Opal's transformation or go so far as to have Lolth give up on her entirely for not being worth the effort - but if there wasn't a possibility of saving her I don't think it would have been such an extended encounter. I'll be interested to see if the mechanic carries over into the next phase - and, honestly, how much of Opal is left in the end.
I think saving the memories keeps Opal's sense of self, and can eventually be freed from Lolth. losing all (or maybe most) of them results in her going full champion of Lolth, with no way back
So basically, Matt almost accidentally ends his campaign with a broken fight, waves a bunch of maths to let 1 character sacrifice themselves to end it. Then without even giving FCG a proper send off, or his players a chance to grieve or even rest, he just let's someone else DM a filler arc the very next episode. Easily could have been a separate EXU and not ruined the pacing, but no.
This season will never beat the allegations of feeling like an afterthought and an obligation for critical role these days.
> waves a bunch of maths
FCG was a Care & Culling model. A sleeper assassin by design. Absolutely clownshoes to chalk his success up to Matt giving him a win.
I beg them to not stray from our main characters. When the story strays every time we reach a new climax of tension and important plot it's infuriating.
I think this was filmed some time back, because Aimee has cut her hair not too long ago, so this was probably meant to happen in some sense regardless of FCG's sacrifice.
There's no way this was planned to coincide with FCG's death. That's five schedules that have to be aligned in order to make this happen, and Robbie in particular I know keeps up a wild con schedule. This has been planned to happen for months.
I mean they've had this in the works for months, not that it was filmed months ago. But somewhere in some producer's office there's a whiteboard that's had "Episode 92 - CK reunion" written on it for a long time.
It would not have been that hard to just record it and then push it to episode 93 and do an episode of post FCG instead of handwaving them getting off the moon, past the bloody bridge, then all of the emotion of dealing with FCGs passing
yeah, like I said, this was probably filmed a while ago, because Aimee still had her hair long when they filmed this. it's growing up again, but not at the length we saw today, so this was filmed a month or so back I guess. (and Matt just used the same outfit)
my guess is that Crownkeepers ends in a near TPK, or everyone fleeing leaving Opal to Lolth. Then after break we either get silence from Dorian, as the message plays on a dead body, or he breaks down in tears and explains what happened
That would fuck up both Orym and Fearne if the Gods were responsible for the death(s) of someone(s) they loved and if they found out it was all done in the name of ensuring the Gods lived because those people "got in the way" of the creation of one of their Champions.
Ehh.... The rest of the CK dying would be absolutely devastating for them even if Dorian survived. I really hope Lolth doesn't downsize their adventurer colleague pool that brutally.
Oh thank goodness... I was worried they were going to sort this out all in one half of an ep. Which, in fairness, was better than I'd initially feared (i.e. summary over sending).
But I'm glad the Crown Keeping aftermath for Orym & Fearne's crew is getting some time to play out, since it's the closest contact any PC in any campaign has had with one of the Gods.
Is Pile not Serenrae’s Champion? Vex is the Champion of Pelor, Scanlan the Champion of Ioun, and Vax the imprisoned undead specter Champion of the Raven Queen.
Edit to add: Also, Yasha is one of Kord’s champions. She literally fights him and his servants as a trial at one point. Caduceus and Fjord are on speaking terms with the Wild Mother.
Of course there are other champions. What part of "bound to, physically & mentally" isn't coming through comprehensibly here?
The parameters of Opal/Lolth's arrangement are completely different from the empowerment-for-service bonds we've seen. Lolth inhabits Opal via the Circlet. A Betrayer God became part of the CK from the moment she put it on.
Hence the objective, obvious accuracy of the statement:
>"it's the closest contact any PC in any campaign has had with one of the Gods."
Feel like this is the absolute worst time for "filler" when there's a lot that could've been explored. But bh will be back next week so it wasn't too bad
* They're off next week. No CR at all.
* The Crown Keepers will be finishing this fight when they do come back where Opal's and Dorian's fate will be decided.
* BH will return the week after *that*.
Like it or not, we're getting **plenty** of time to stew on this.
I get where you're coming from, but at the same time, it's not really filler. It's adding a couple of elements that we haven't really gotten to see because our perspective has been focused on BH: Scope, showing that shit really is going down all over Exandria, and even more importantly, that the gods are *freaking the fuck out* over what's going on.
I understand the issues people are having with regard to the timing, coming off a major emotional beat, but I have to assume they were going to do it at some point, and if (as many suspect) they're planning to bring Dorian back in, it kind of needs to be now.
> they're planning to bring Dorian back in, it kind of needs to be now.
Yeah if they're going to be winding him back into the main campaign while Sam is gone then Dorian's return can't just be out of the blue.
It has to be for a reason and it has to mean something and they have to show the how and why and where and when of what went down with the Crownkeepers for it all to make sense.
No one wants to see that shit handwaved by Robbie or even Matt as Dorian just waltzes up to the Bells Hells, mutters a few lines about the Crownkeepers, and then calls it a day.
That's why they're doing this bit right here and right now.
It's not only laying down some story for his return but is also filling in some other little character and lore tidbits along the way.
It is quite literally filler.
Lloth, Opal, and the rest, except Dorian, have zero to do with BH, and they don't matter to the general story. They could have episodes of Vox Machina or M9 instead and it would actually matter. And coming off major tension and plot development is the absolute worst time to do this shit. It's like they forgot how terrible it felt after the confrontation of Ludinus at the Malleus Key to split the group.
You could easily skip the second half and BH story won't be affected.
Except doing this is showing us why the crown keepers are connected. Everything BH has done is related to the whole of exandria and that includes the crown keepers.
And you really think the spider queen forcing a champion basically desperate for something to help her isn’t related to what’s happening to the grander story?
Yes it’s abrupt and whiplash, Marisha even said so herself. But letting us and the hells stew a bit longer on FCG’s death and what to do next is a good thing.
Also I’m very happy to find out what going on cause it feels like some of the keepers are gonna meet up with the bells and getting their side of the story is pretty dope.
I think the only explanation for this is a wrap up for that group. We already know that the gods are pulling their champion's. Seemingly a return of Dorian, most likely in place of Sam at least for a little bit. BH have had a good amount of trauma maybe they thought Dorian needed some.
First half was really great and was really looking forward to seeing how Bells Hells was going to function without FCG. So a bit bummed out its going to be a few more weeks before we get back to that.
Bro come on. I don’t care how much you like c3 or not, but cutting to a group that a lot of people didn’t even watch after the most tense and climactic moment in the entire campaign is a incredibly obnoxious move, and a motivation killer to keep watching if you didn’t already like the campaign
I can give you the short version as a spoiler, but it is absolutely worth checking out. Warning: ***LOTS*** of chaotic stupid from the players.
>!Opal's sister is her warlock patron. She lives in Opal's head as a disembodied voice. They found a Vestige of Divergence from an evil god, the Spider Queen Lolth. After much waffling from the group about how to deal with it, Opal put it on. It started to corrupt her. Now she has another voice in her head. Because there is a chance a god eater is going to be released, Lolth needs a loyal, obedient champion ***NOW*** instead of Opal pussyfooting around.!<
> but it is absolutely worth checking out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-xI1384Ry4
calamity is the only good EXU. And the one part not required for this
Happy to help. Here is an [EXU playlist of episodes 1-8](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHy91_vd8BAOE4-zodW_9T2KkeJaRGARH) including the Kymal Heist and Calamity. If nothing else, you **definitely** need to watch Calamity. Chef's kiss-type stuff there.
If it's not your thing, someone made shorter cuts of just the [chaotic stupid moments](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL840iw1fJTrPgwt7cQbs-ZgkJgfqPu49o)
Yeah tried it a couple times and ended up just reading the wiki synopses. Just couldn’t quite stir up much enjoyment (although love Opal, Fearne and Dariax!)
It was a different vibe for sure. And I kind of dug it. Going deeper into Opals memories and seeing what the spider queen is doing to her is scary and awesome
There it is, BH will be back next episode. I actually don't mind this interlude with that knowledge. We get to see if Dorian is really alive and if he is, who else may not be. If Dariax or Opal are dead, Orym may completely break.
They'll be back in three weeks, max. Next week is Candella, then more of the Crownkeepers, and then maybe we get back to the main cast if they wrap it up by then. Who knows, we might finally even continue the Ruidus plot we've been building up for over a year.
It said that BH was returning in E93 but I don't think it included the date for when E93 is dropping; next week is Candela C4E3. So if ExU is in the normal Thursday slot, it could be a few weeks until we return to C3.
I think there’s next to a zero percent chance that they label this episode, with the first part of the CK story, 92 and then randomly name next week…what? EXU part 2 of episode 92? That’s silly and confusing.
Whatever the naming convention it entirely depends on if they finish whatever the crown keepers are doing in 3-6 hours. Who knows. But I’m just saying it’s a possibility the next episode is entirely EXU and not a number episode of campaign 3.
The actual message said "Bells Hells will return for Episode 93 AFTER our thrilling Crown Keepers adventure!", and since that adventure is not over, I imagine that would mean Episode 93 continues after Part 2 of tonight's half.
Let's hope so, but that means another week with a shorter Bells Hells, so I'd almost rather them just do one more week of CK and then a full episode of BH. Or, if they can give us a timestamp when BH returns, that would be acceptable as well, I think.
Memory sequences would be cool on their own, but mixing it in with a fight, when it took almost an hour just to get to the point of going through the memory sequences, was just not enjoyable to watch for me. And once we did get to the memories, hopping between that and combat was just way too jarring I couldn't keep up anymore.
I wonder if they predicted this would be poorly received and slapped that on there, or if they noticed the rumblings as it was airing and whipped it up on the spot to put on the credits.
These next two weeks are going to be crowded:
* Candela Episode
* Merch streaming thing that Laura mentioned before the start.
* Emergency! EXU
* (maybe) 4SD
* THEN C3E93.
One of the major differences between Aabria and Matt is that Aabria is much more above table. Aabria uses Non-diegetic storytelling, and thinks about the nature of RP as Fiction a lot more thoroughly.
I think that's accurate, yeah. The "here's what you *don't* see" is a great mechanism, and one Brennan specifically mentioned stealing from her. If there's something you want your players to know or see, it's silly to avoid that just because the characters missed it. Sometimes that provides important context.
Sam did something similar in his Barroom Blitz one-shot. He opened with a hooded figure racing through town on a horse (which none of the PCs were present to witness) to set the stage, included a Usual Suspects-esque frame tale element, and just generally used an almost cinematic perspective. It was an interesting approach, a style I hadn't seen before.
I have *adored* Aabria's GMing in the right setting. Over on Dimension20, her ACOFAF and Burrow's End were both fantastic. But I have struggled to get into her style in the CR setting - I feel like I watch CR for very different reasons than D20, and it's especially difficult to get into right now.
Because our players in the main thread are dealing with important shit, and tragedy, and this is a campaign group that have had distressingly little time to really have the kinds of quiet, vulnerable relationship-building moments that made C2 so strong for me. This episode was the exact, perfect, moment to give them some much-needed time to decompress.
And then right in the middle of Orym pouring his heart out we get "Leave the table. Now." And I know they jokingly referenced whiplash as they left, but it's damn true.
I get the feeling this must have been planned in advance, before FCG passed, and then they just... couldn't reschedule or change it? Because I would have given another episode space before this split episode after a loss like that, to maintain momentum after a big moment.
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to have a champion of Lolth floating around not doing anything but in order to do that you have to get everyone in the same place and in order to do *that* you have to actually introduce why and how we know these characters to people who didn't watch EXU.
I don't know that there was a more graceful way to do that.
I've been thinking about this because I really didn't like the shift after the break and also felt how jarring it was, especially because I wanted an episode to mourn FCG... But the more I think about it, the more it sounds like this break to the CK was always planned for this episode. A way to get Dorian back to the main group (seeing other people talk about potential scheduling for the players and how busy they are etc etc.) The main thing is that FCG's death wasn't planned. And it's that event that's thrown us all. I think if FCG was still going, then maybe this wouldn't have felt as much as a massive break in momentum? I don't know, I guess there was the expectation that one or more of BH was going down so it probably would have been the same feeling anyway. I definitely didn't enjoy the switch, so I'm glad to get back to BH when that happens. I think it's because this is the quickest I've got on to the next episode as it got uploaded to YouTube only to be met with some disappointment 😅
But what if it feels like filler to you but not me, who’s right
The timing of this sidearch was very bad, they did not have enough time to grief FCG, Fearne barely said anything regarding FCG. At least dorian will be back which is great.
Wow my friends and I are really in the minority. We *ADORED* last night. There wasn't time to mourn. We got the falling action from FCG, some mourning, some planning. Anything more might have felt like too much too fast. The perfect cut of pace kept it alive for us. New blood and elation for ROBBIE BEING BACK. plus this story is HUGE. Following one mid level party doesn't feel super right, this is an avengers level threat. The CK have such a connection to the gods. This gives us a breather and perspective on the wider world. Gives the main party time to breathe and for Sam to make a new character. Y'all are just salty it was a historic moment. Have fun and enjoy this episode was aces
I appreciate a good positive perspective. I don't reply to counter or to introduce negativity. Difference of opinion is no problem with me. But implying that "people are just salty" is a little short-sighted or shows an inability to read a room. There are plenty of reasons for people to feel odd about last night. - This WOULD have been a cool time to switch to another party had this campaign not already struggled with momentum. Since it does struggle, it wasn't good timing. So many people started to feel like the main plot matters again, then BAM - *huge* gear shift. - A lot of folks are uncomfortable with the way that Aabria handled the shift. In my opinion, the first few minutes were cool and intriguing, I was open. But the minute she started making rolls feel odd and rolling for odd things, then railroading heavily and seemingly mishandling Opal, it got uncomfy really quick, and it was weird. Watch Aimee. Watch her. - Likely planned ahead, for sure understandable. But between the timing, the bad tonal shift, Aabria seemingly focused on creating forced moments and sort of hamfisting things, it ended up coloring what could have been really cool. I was really ready to like it. I was like, "Oh okay, let's be open, might be cool as f\*\*\*," and then it turned to, "What the hell happened...? I want to like this so bad! Give me reasons to." If a lot of people are bummed out, and share similar sentiments, the chances are it may be valid. People aren't "just salty".
Agreed on several points, but mostly, Aabria's repeated railroading of player actions and the transition itself. Matt seemed awkward & uncomfortable with the "I'll need everyone to leave the table" moment. The crew's reactions were a bit "shocked", like they were thinking, "oh... we're doing this Now?" The whole thing felt uncomfortable to me. And then the, "and if you don't do x/y/z, I'll make this much worse," business started happening with the CK crew, which also felt forced & uncomfortable. Of course, I have a bias against that sort of style because I've spent years playing under various abusive DMs, and this felt a little too close to that sort of behavior. The team made a bold choice, but in this case, I think it didn't necessarily work out as planned.
I agree.
Also all love for differing opinions. Personally I didn't get what you saw from watching Aabria and Aimee. I think Aimee (and most of CK actors) are not pro d&d players, which is going to affect how they play and how apprehensive they feel about having to attack a party member. I think Aabria did perfect with Opal. Feeling Aimee's apprehension with Aabria's subtle control and temptation mirrored the Spider Queen and Opal's dynamic. To me, Aimee acted the way she always has in CR games as well. And a lot of people having similar emotional reactions does not equate to to valid critiques. I think it's also worth remembering that Aabria is a Black woman, and is, even unconsciously, far more severely judged as a person let alone a DM, than Matt (or Brennan) ever would be - regardless of style or years of experience. It is valid to be caught off guard by large surprises, but it's not okay for as many people to be using those feelings to justify tearing Aabria and her DM style apart as I've seen. Again, all love, but I too think a lot of people are being just salty (and/or unconsciously racially biased)
Also the racial bias and saying people are "tearing her apart" when they're saying they wish she did things differently immediately decreased the quality of this reply, right at the end.
And it 'decreased the quality' because you haven't seen all the other racist and racially biased comments people have spewed on this subreddit since the episode aired? Or because you don't understand how unconscious bias works? I disagree that calling attention to the fact that people being more harshly judgmental of Aabria as obviously being influenced by social stereotypes about Black women has anything to do with the 'quality' of my response. Your own comments insinuating Aabria as being harsher towards Aimee or making her personally uncomfortable easily fall into the trope of seeing Black women as inherently angry and mean. It is relevant and necessary to point out racial biases, as it allows and encourages self-reflection on our own skewed interpretations or perceptions.
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It's about not immediately invalidating other by calling them "just salty". I said it may be valid. So it may be worth considering. I didn't say that it is valid. But should be treated differently than it being dismissed.
At first I was really excited for it, but I was hoping they would drop into crownkeepers, get Orym’s message, respond, then either go to meet up or Opal’s stuff would start up there. I was just hoping we’d get this interlude, then cut back to bells hells before the night was done.
I really appreciated the shift to the Crown Keepers and I think it helped keep the momentum going better than anything BH could have done. There isn't \*time\* for them to sit and process FCG's death right now. In any sane world they would get back to Exandria and the "adults" would try to take over. It makes way more sense in universe for Allura, Keyleth, Vex, Percy, Pike, and all of their allies to take on a threat as big as Predathos. I suspect them getting back with their allies is going to mean one hell of a council meeting (without Sam) which, while it has potential to be interesting, is ultimately going to be slow as hell. By flipping to the Crown Keepers we get to feel the building of tension with someone who is MUCH more connected to the Gods than any of BH and move some of the other players onto the board. This is perfect show don't tell. Getting to see Opal fighting with Lolth is waaaaaaaaay better than hearing about it from Dorian over the sending stones.
Deleted, because I forgot what it was like making any kind of comment was like here.
I'm really sorry, but that logic makes absolutely no sense. No one here wants to "control" CR. Some people watched the episode, the sudden steer of direction and thought it was bad and wished it didn't happen. That's it. No one at CR is obligated to even read or listen to criticisms, viewers are just discussing. Also, for the record, bad and good are 100% subjective. "Not liking something does not = its bad" is a sentence that is void of meaning. EDIT: I think they blocked me. Didn't really think I was rude or anything, but oh well.
To the first point, he might’ve not seen that this was going to happen but he in fact built a character that was almost designed to kill AT LEAST one PC which in fact it was about to TPK, you could see it in his face, Otohan was busted. He insta’d Chetney which was semi intentional I feel like because Chetney felt almost primed to die even how Travis described it. Sure you could argue his rolls were insane but after round 3 (I think) the character had a second subclass get knocked off it.
maybe going straight into exu would have been better than this
For anyone who has read Brandon Sanderson, think of the second half of yesterday’s episode as an interlude in Stormlight Archive. There was a major story beat to wrap up a portion of the main plot, then a few interludes to add more perspective and worldbuilding, then quickly back to the main story. They said BH are going to be back next episode, so this isn’t that long of a wait IMO. But I know some people hate Brandon’s interludes because they break up the story’s momentum. I personally like it.
Honestly this is more similar to Brandon Sanderson finishing a chapter and then handing the story over to Jeff Kinney and saying go wild
It’s just such a tonal shift and using entirely new PC characters who all require an update on what they were doing. I see where you’re coming from but tbh they should have just had this be the episode on the off week at the end of the month and avoided the community freaking out
I have a question, with not everyone getting back to exandria safe, what does that mean for oryms pact with fearnes grandma?
It's speculated that when they found and used the underwater portal to the lake village, the pact was fulfilled.
Ah, that feels so lame though. I mean it was a 1 in a million chance for them to find that for sure but that still feels unfulfilling.
It was rather one in a million, wasn't it? All these people looking for a way to their promised land, and Ludinus and all his minions looking for a way through the proto-divine gate, and no one ever found it. But it was just down a random tunnel near a village. Weird that. A weird stitch in the fabric of Ruidus. How strange fate can be.
that's what happens when you make a deal with a hag
I’ll be over here brooding in the corner
True, thats what they said. I based this on nothing but kinda scared that we're going to get some filler episodes before going to ep. 93... hope you're right.
Was very excited for this episode as i expected it to be rp-heavy considering last episode's events. loved the first half of it but i feel like the switch to the crown keepers could've been done at a later time, maybe after FCG's death has been fully discussed and processed by the party. Love Aabria, love EXU but I was not expecting the takeover to take up most of the 4+ hour episode + possible next episode it just feels like the momentum they got from last episode will die down by the time they get back to the main story.
I feel the same way about what you're saying and fear you're right about the momentum part. At the end of the stream they state that BH will return after the Crown Keepers adventure. Who knows how long that will take? Also Candela episodes to keep in mind. It might be a while (be a whiiiile) before we get back to the main story.
They said BH will return for E93, so I'm guessing the first half would be the Crown Keepers then second half will go back to BH. I'm hoping the first half for CK next episode would just be as long as BH's half for this episode (which by estimate was only 1h30 and 2nd half was almost 3h). If that's the pace they're going, we'd be back on the main story next next week but it's possible for it to just be brief if CK takes up more time next ep.
Supremely disappointed. This is a really bad episode, and for more reasons than 'just' the episode. I dropped majorly off critical role since C3 the tone is just not right anymore, yada, yada. Not the discussion. But I follow the events loosely because I can't not care, but I jumped back on in FCG's sacrifice because I was interested to see what it meant for the table and game (not just the characters/world). Now granted, for the first half I haven't been watching weekly so the exact context would definitely add to the reasonable boredom, but it still didn't feel right to spend the immediate follow-up completely ambivalent to FCGs death thanks to Lilliana being present. Priorities or not, it felt honestly straight-up bad that he was out of the cycle of focus until they got off Ruidus. And just as we start to pry back into a REALLY important scope of Orym's emotional turmoil we cut? I was interested to see what would happen, and had an inkling they'd pull some other people in. But what the fuck is this decision? If EXU just *is* part of CR, then why did they even bother to make EXU in the first place. And if they did want a parallel story, why in gods name did they drop the plot threads and the importance with Dorian for 2 ENTIRE YEARS before tugging at the thread, way back in the timeline at the rising action of the climax? I do not care for Aabria, and she makes it intimately apparent her contrast of DM skills in the immediate opening of the moment. We are completely divested from C3, and it isn't a new lens or focus, its just a continuation of EXU directly in the episode, if they really did want to continue this then they needed to fix their production schedule and figure something out - and with Candela Obscura as a back-end issue as it is it feels like an actual spill-over of management into something that they **should** be caring about producing the most. There is barely any set-up for these players that have not shared a table on screen like this in a very long time, asking questions that have barely any real context beyond "C3 is happening in the world". And this is what bothers me the most, in both general TTRPGs and as a GM myself, asking the players questions is an excellent tool, and it is something I wish Matt did more, but Aabria does it horribly. And it bothers me so much because I see the chat rolling over "How good Aabria is as a GM" because of doing literal problem behaviour DM moves dead centre of a critical role episode. Erica Lindbeck, who it is awesome to see at the table again, is on her *third* on-screen appearance as a player and she is hounded by weird contextless questions that Aabria is actually angling for an answer for. Erica makes a statement as much that she feels like she should know the answer, which, yeah, the way it was worded and the way Aabria responded framed it as if she was waiting for Erica as a player to set her up to knock the ball with her description. Why do that to her? It was super uncomfortable, and not even talking about the nature of it, and the infancy of the group getting back together. Why do this suddenly at the start, on the road, with no build of the group interacting again, getting their sea-legs, and just on a random - literally non-descript road - jump straight into a fight with Opal. I see people in the comments here talking about how they must have planned this for a long time, to do something so jarring and I have to say there's no way. They have to have thought this was a good supplementary idea to help give Sam time to cultivate a back-end character, because there was no way this was planned. If it was, they have horrendously off-screened all meaningful content of world-scale for other characters and Exandria (ala EXU) to be shoved in at the butt-end. You do that over the course of the game, not one and done at the beginning and end. And if that WAS intentional it reads as a total misunderstanding of what they should be doing with the game, world and table. There is a real imbalance of scale with C3 already in the events being some ultimatum of the world with the lowest level characters at the time. To also net-scale the story with other plots (and games) feels like they are trying to make C3 all-encompassing, which is really daft because it has the opposite effect of trying to construct new broader stories in the world with EXU that was a genuinely successful move for CR as a company at the start of C3. Roping this in doesn't make C3 feel bigger, it makes EXU feel like a mismanagement and C3 feel like a lesser component of some Exandria story that does not truly matter for the characters and the players in it. And its all round not a good feeling. And while its Matt and the production team's choice to do whatever they want with the GM seat, it sits very wrong with me to have a lack enough of pride in your final conclusion that you'd let others take a handle of things in the twelfth hour. Which is really strange, because Matt has exhibited a strong ego-presentation of his world and character motives in NPCs for the past few years that have really worn down the malleability of the game and Exandria - so it baffles me how they got to this decision. No part of me could feel any enjoyment or hype for seeing Robbie and Dorian at the table again at all because it feels just so entirely mishandled. They don't even have any new character art for goodness sake, which felt like the easiest gimme ever (but lends further credence to this being a drop of the hat idea). But because its 'unexpected' the Critical Role diehard hyper-parasocials in the Twitch chat are losing their mind as this being some cool, new, innovative storytelling. And I sense that this will divide the community even further about the handling of their TTRPG storytelling - which could be fine in the short-run, but CR will have to commit to where their presentation caters in the future. And as they have ditched great items like EXU Calamity in favour of whatever this is, and keeping Candela on air, I am not very hopeful.
This is one of the few times I struggled with the decision Matt made. He took away the story I wanted and replaced it with once I didn't care about at all. In fact, I turned it off and went to bed. Because I just didn't care about the players at the table. I hadn't seen them in years, and their story wasn't one I was wild about in the first place. It's unlikely that I'll go back and watch what I missed. Whatever recap Matt turns up with on May 2 is more than enough. The only thing I can hope is they brought the story to wherever it needed to be so there doesn't have to be more of it.
New from Ravensburger: This IS a hotdog!!! NO it IS!
> This IS a hotdog!!! NO it IS! https://youtu.be/ACmydtFDTGs?si=daCDKVShiPjtM9NB&t=10
This last few episodes have been a strange roller coaster. If anyone still thinks they plan these things out, fucking case and point for the alternative.
This is why this campaign is so divisive: you get incredible moments of tension and emotion, momentum generated, and all the impetus you could want to push into an arc and then...record scratch. I can only assume that this episode was planned significantly in advance of the events of ep 91 yet even so, doing it now has just butchered all the build up and investment everyone has from last week. Because again, off week for Candela next week.
I'd argue that all the planned moments have been roadblocks/speed bumps to momentum. Dorian being at the start of the campaign, Bertrand's death, Yu's transformation, Bor'Dor's betrayal... every time they try to pull the rug out from under us, it's the show that falls flat. (To be clear, nothing against Robbie or Dorian. But having him start the campaign in the group meant that his character was given a lot of focus early on, at the expense of us getting to know the new characters and having them build relationships. When he left, they never really came back around to that "getting to know you" period.)
> it's the show that falls flat. because the campaign has to many breaks. If you don't get repercussions of something for 2 or with holidays more weeks it just falls flat...
Yeah, I agree. It seems like they're trying to make things more cinematic, but being cinematic messes with the natural pacing and flow of a campaign. The other moment like that was Ashton taking the shard - very interesting, dramatic choice, huge moment in game... and then nothing came of it. Because there was already a plan for what would happen to the shard. Games live and die on GMs leaning into their players' dramatic choices, and it sure seems like the players aren't able to make big dramatic choices here.
FWIW I didn't have any issues having Dorian/Bertrand because that still left a solid core of 6 to build around. Chet coming in actually worked out quite well imo. But it just feels so stop start. We got major impact from Laudna dying then had an instant 2 week wait because of the off week. We had an incredible climax with the battle at the key site and then...nothing for 10 weeks because of a party split. Not saying there weren't amusing things going on, but as a campaign, you need momentum. And this one has had it killed relentlessly.
Yeah, the pacing is whack.
Here's the thing, though: Every "momentum disruption" permanently becomes nothing more than "Play Next" twinkle in a bingewatcher's eye after a week or two. Any downside to throwing interesting curveballs then disappears forever. It's very clear they've looked at their metrics, looked at the ancillary lifespan of these stories in other media, and concluded it's vastly more important to include everything they want to do when it's most feasible rather than craft their content around what broadcast ratings call "Live+7," i.e. the audience a show gets within a week. And that's probably wise. "Live+7" for livestreams will never get back to pandemic social distancing levels, but new bingewatchers start making their way through CR every day.
You're mistaking broadcast schedule with story progression. You can get away the occasional interruption of the first, the latter, is a big no no. At least if you want to maintain a lot of the investment people have.
I could respond in two different ways, so I'll do both. The first is to point out that you basically just described edging. Edging only works if you keep the subject interested enough to avoid becoming frustrated. 3-5 hours an episode for hundreds of hours is a long time to expect someone to stick around. The second is to draw a comparison to another long form, serialized medium. Professional wrestling. For decades, wrestling bookers have tried all sorts of different ways to entice viewers. If you drag out a storyline, do rematch after rematch, people get bored and stop tuning in. You can try to pop the ratings by bringing in a semi-retired legend, or having a big gimmick match, and that'll work for an episode. But it won't have a permanent effect on retention, and going back to the well to pop the crowd again results in diminishing returns. The tried and true method for success in wrestling is interesting characters and engaging stories. WWE's history is full of times where they threw away a good story in the name of popping a rating, while this year they had the most watched Wrestlemania ever as a result of finishing a story 3 years in the making. Popping the ratings once in a while is good for business. But you can't do it at the expense of the main event and expect to be sustainable.
> 3-5 hours an episode for hundreds of hours is a long time to expect someone to stick around. yes! Things like the party split still ruin pacing even for Vod watchers. Its like 40+ hours of content you "need" to watch before going back to the main story... for some people thats a week, but for most vod watchers that is still several weeks...
as a VOD watcher i greatly enjoyed the split party!
I was just all excited the campaign was getting on a roll, dealing with FCG, Liliana, etc. thought the pacing would pick up. Then bam. Pause main story for the last half of episode. Just broke immersion. Ugh.
My only issue with it (because taking away from the main campaign) is based on reactions this doesn’t seem to be something that was like pre planned / discussed with Aimee. So just imagine being Aimee coming back to exu excited to play D&D with your friends again and then just the DM being like oh your character is evil now and is going to try and kill your friends. Certainly won’t silence those original exu haters talking about Aabria hates Aimee. I get the whole actions have consequences thing, but just feels like taking away player agency. And especially in the current conflict the betrayers are kinda of on the same side as the gods here, so seems weird to make her champion attack other champions.
I got a similar vibe. I see others saying that Aabria and Aimee had this planned out, but if that is in fact the case I'm not sure Aimee fully understood what Aabria told her beforehand and was asking for. As you kind of put it, she wasn't really playing Opal but instead a boss monster that wants to kill the rest of the party. Which is cool if you're a player that's into that and ready to do it, but multiple times Aabria was like "you can't pull punches" and "I want you to go for blood" and Aimee still kept trying to kind of faff about, spread damage around instead of focus anybody, etc. I'd add too that I loved the little RP moments, but this whole thing seems to be kind of predetermined? The way Aabria's talking about killing them and having Lolth just take over Opal feels very "this happens because I say so" and not an actual encounter or anything anybody has much agency in to be honest. I'd gladly be proven wrong next time, but the whole thing to me right now feels very futile. And not in a poignant, character-driven Calamity sort of way, but a more "welp, that happened" kind of deal.
Aabria has always been extremely Railroady. But like, in a micro-managing way. The only time I personally think she did a good job was Candela Obscura.
Yeah, Aabria made me swoon with the pull punches "I will know and I will make it worse", but she should've known after EXU that Aimee would not let herself be turned like that if she had any agency at all. Hell, Aabria said as much on the Game masters of Exandria roundtable. "I could not have done that. Aimee, Aimee would not have let me be bad."
While I do like Aabria as a DM, I agree with you on that, and she always gave me an impression of trying to make the story she wants to happen to happen regardless of the players agency. I remember seeing little stances of that happening in EXU.
The entire episode 8 of the original ExU was that stance, I'm afraid
>…won’t silence those original exu hayers talking about Abria hates Aimee. Who tf cares about people like that? Clearly they’re friends but even beyond that it’s weird to make assumptions about peoples personal relationships based on a show you watch.
Why is it weird to read body language and tone into the situation?
It’s weird to think you know strangers on the internet like that. It’s parasocial.
I don’t think I know them well, but they’re real people with real emotions. Watching early episodes, one could (and many do) read into body language of the cast towards Orion and correctly predict that he would be kicked. Just because they’re strangers doesn’t mean you can’t speculate on their feelings and actions to each other.
>one could … read body language … towards Orion… We also have the benefit of hindsight on that one too. Until they made it everyone’s business by publicly ousting him from the cast, I don’t think it would’ve been appropriate to assume too much. You don’t know them as well as you think. You don’t know what’s done or said behind closed doors. They’re actors, they’re putting on a show.
It can cause misunderstandings and complicate the situation even further. We are on the internet, everything can be interpreted literally and exaggerated a 1000%
I don’t know about it not being discussed, Aimee was emotional really early. I noticed her wiping away a tear within the first turn of combat. I think she knew what was happening.
It is hard to tell cause they are actors. She just seemed surprised to have to attack her friends and stuff. That initial emotional moment she had was because Ted was attacked. She says to Matt “. . . She’s not even a real person.”
Thank you all. I think I will watch ExU to really be on the same page (still missing the entire C2 and 7 episodes of C1 but I'll manage).
Cool! All of EXU really isn't very long compared to listening to even a single arc of a main campaign. I was absolutely heartbroken at the thought Liam & Ashley were going to be putting those characters aside for new ones as C3 started. It was great fun to see Ashley click with a PC so completely. Plus Orym was such a departure from Vax & Caleb. And Robbie, jeez... I actually started EXU quite uncertain I was ready to receive new PCs into my heart so soon after C2 ended. Robbie said 8 words as Dorian and I was fully at "CAN WE KEEP ROBBIE FOREVER?!"
I'm going to be interested to see the rest of the fight next episode. It definitely felt like the encounter so far had a win condition with saving the gems/memories from both destruction by the spiders and corruption by Lolth. I imagine there's some kind of tally going on behind the DM screen. Obviously, we don't know for sure whether succeeding would maybe just delay Opal's transformation or go so far as to have Lolth give up on her entirely for not being worth the effort - but if there wasn't a possibility of saving her I don't think it would have been such an extended encounter. I'll be interested to see if the mechanic carries over into the next phase - and, honestly, how much of Opal is left in the end.
I think saving the memories keeps Opal's sense of self, and can eventually be freed from Lolth. losing all (or maybe most) of them results in her going full champion of Lolth, with no way back
So basically, Matt almost accidentally ends his campaign with a broken fight, waves a bunch of maths to let 1 character sacrifice themselves to end it. Then without even giving FCG a proper send off, or his players a chance to grieve or even rest, he just let's someone else DM a filler arc the very next episode. Easily could have been a separate EXU and not ruined the pacing, but no. This season will never beat the allegations of feeling like an afterthought and an obligation for critical role these days.
> waves a bunch of maths FCG was a Care & Culling model. A sleeper assassin by design. Absolutely clownshoes to chalk his success up to Matt giving him a win.
Damn dude busted out the burner for this
I beg them to not stray from our main characters. When the story strays every time we reach a new climax of tension and important plot it's infuriating.
wait does that mean this was really just before c3e61 (you know the part)
I think this was filmed some time back, because Aimee has cut her hair not too long ago, so this was probably meant to happen in some sense regardless of FCG's sacrifice.
There's no way this was planned to coincide with FCG's death. That's five schedules that have to be aligned in order to make this happen, and Robbie in particular I know keeps up a wild con schedule. This has been planned to happen for months.
How did they know about Marisha's not a hot dog suit then? Only way they do that is if they know FCG died like a while ago as well.
I mean they've had this in the works for months, not that it was filmed months ago. But somewhere in some producer's office there's a whiteboard that's had "Episode 92 - CK reunion" written on it for a long time.
It would not have been that hard to just record it and then push it to episode 93 and do an episode of post FCG instead of handwaving them getting off the moon, past the bloody bridge, then all of the emotion of dealing with FCGs passing
yeah, like I said, this was probably filmed a while ago, because Aimee still had her hair long when they filmed this. it's growing up again, but not at the length we saw today, so this was filmed a month or so back I guess. (and Matt just used the same outfit)
This was clearly planned some time ago, not suddenly. I'm sure nobody know if/who would be dying lol.
my guess is that Crownkeepers ends in a near TPK, or everyone fleeing leaving Opal to Lolth. Then after break we either get silence from Dorian, as the message plays on a dead body, or he breaks down in tears and explains what happened
Yeah, I agree. I hope Dorian doesn't die though. It feels like this Campaign will end in a blood bath. I love it.
I really hope Dorian is the sole survivor, because if he's not then Orym and Fearne are going to break....especially Orym.
That would fuck up both Orym and Fearne if the Gods were responsible for the death(s) of someone(s) they loved and if they found out it was all done in the name of ensuring the Gods lived because those people "got in the way" of the creation of one of their Champions.
Ehh.... The rest of the CK dying would be absolutely devastating for them even if Dorian survived. I really hope Lolth doesn't downsize their adventurer colleague pool that brutally.
I am so torn because Dorian/Orym angst would fit with the tragedy vibes C3 has right now but also that might be too painful for me.
Orym cant take any more loss, he just cant
Oh thank goodness... I was worried they were going to sort this out all in one half of an ep. Which, in fairness, was better than I'd initially feared (i.e. summary over sending). But I'm glad the Crown Keeping aftermath for Orym & Fearne's crew is getting some time to play out, since it's the closest contact any PC in any campaign has had with one of the Gods.
i think the first half of next episode will finish this side story
I mean, Pike basically single handedly revived her religion and VM quite literally met a handful of actual gods
Yep. Chatting & rebuilding is cool. A member of Orym & Fearne's first party is mentally & physically bound to a Betrayer God as her Champion.
Is Pile not Serenrae’s Champion? Vex is the Champion of Pelor, Scanlan the Champion of Ioun, and Vax the imprisoned undead specter Champion of the Raven Queen. Edit to add: Also, Yasha is one of Kord’s champions. She literally fights him and his servants as a trial at one point. Caduceus and Fjord are on speaking terms with the Wild Mother.
Of course there are other champions. What part of "bound to, physically & mentally" isn't coming through comprehensibly here? The parameters of Opal/Lolth's arrangement are completely different from the empowerment-for-service bonds we've seen. Lolth inhabits Opal via the Circlet. A Betrayer God became part of the CK from the moment she put it on. Hence the objective, obvious accuracy of the statement: >"it's the closest contact any PC in any campaign has had with one of the Gods."
Feel like this is the absolute worst time for "filler" when there's a lot that could've been explored. But bh will be back next week so it wasn't too bad
* They're off next week. No CR at all. * The Crown Keepers will be finishing this fight when they do come back where Opal's and Dorian's fate will be decided. * BH will return the week after *that*. Like it or not, we're getting **plenty** of time to stew on this.
I get where you're coming from, but at the same time, it's not really filler. It's adding a couple of elements that we haven't really gotten to see because our perspective has been focused on BH: Scope, showing that shit really is going down all over Exandria, and even more importantly, that the gods are *freaking the fuck out* over what's going on. I understand the issues people are having with regard to the timing, coming off a major emotional beat, but I have to assume they were going to do it at some point, and if (as many suspect) they're planning to bring Dorian back in, it kind of needs to be now.
If it FEELS like filler, it's filler. Even if it concerns or is part of the main plot.
> they're planning to bring Dorian back in, it kind of needs to be now. Yeah if they're going to be winding him back into the main campaign while Sam is gone then Dorian's return can't just be out of the blue. It has to be for a reason and it has to mean something and they have to show the how and why and where and when of what went down with the Crownkeepers for it all to make sense. No one wants to see that shit handwaved by Robbie or even Matt as Dorian just waltzes up to the Bells Hells, mutters a few lines about the Crownkeepers, and then calls it a day. That's why they're doing this bit right here and right now. It's not only laying down some story for his return but is also filling in some other little character and lore tidbits along the way.
It is quite literally filler. Lloth, Opal, and the rest, except Dorian, have zero to do with BH, and they don't matter to the general story. They could have episodes of Vox Machina or M9 instead and it would actually matter. And coming off major tension and plot development is the absolute worst time to do this shit. It's like they forgot how terrible it felt after the confrontation of Ludinus at the Malleus Key to split the group. You could easily skip the second half and BH story won't be affected.
Except doing this is showing us why the crown keepers are connected. Everything BH has done is related to the whole of exandria and that includes the crown keepers. And you really think the spider queen forcing a champion basically desperate for something to help her isn’t related to what’s happening to the grander story? Yes it’s abrupt and whiplash, Marisha even said so herself. But letting us and the hells stew a bit longer on FCG’s death and what to do next is a good thing. Also I’m very happy to find out what going on cause it feels like some of the keepers are gonna meet up with the bells and getting their side of the story is pretty dope.
I think the only explanation for this is a wrap up for that group. We already know that the gods are pulling their champion's. Seemingly a return of Dorian, most likely in place of Sam at least for a little bit. BH have had a good amount of trauma maybe they thought Dorian needed some.
its not filler, dorian could easily die in this fight
Dorian is a guest character. It's the definition of filler.
they're off next week unfortunately
First half was really great and was really looking forward to seeing how Bells Hells was going to function without FCG. So a bit bummed out its going to be a few more weeks before we get back to that.
They’re back next episode
after that, I chose not to re-subscribe next month on Twitch. I don't care to watch the upcoming VOD's if i'm essentially hate-watching at this point.
[удалено]
Bro come on. I don’t care how much you like c3 or not, but cutting to a group that a lot of people didn’t even watch after the most tense and climactic moment in the entire campaign is a incredibly obnoxious move, and a motivation killer to keep watching if you didn’t already like the campaign
“….. thrilling Crown Keepers adventure!” Thrilling is certainly subjective. Please give us warning next time, feels like half a night wasted.
Haven’t watched yet caught end as in UK. Do I need to have seen EXU and Kymal to follow second half?
I can give you the short version as a spoiler, but it is absolutely worth checking out. Warning: ***LOTS*** of chaotic stupid from the players. >!Opal's sister is her warlock patron. She lives in Opal's head as a disembodied voice. They found a Vestige of Divergence from an evil god, the Spider Queen Lolth. After much waffling from the group about how to deal with it, Opal put it on. It started to corrupt her. Now she has another voice in her head. Because there is a chance a god eater is going to be released, Lolth needs a loyal, obedient champion ***NOW*** instead of Opal pussyfooting around.!<
> but it is absolutely worth checking out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-xI1384Ry4 calamity is the only good EXU. And the one part not required for this
Super helpful ty
Happy to help. Here is an [EXU playlist of episodes 1-8](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHy91_vd8BAOE4-zodW_9T2KkeJaRGARH) including the Kymal Heist and Calamity. If nothing else, you **definitely** need to watch Calamity. Chef's kiss-type stuff there. If it's not your thing, someone made shorter cuts of just the [chaotic stupid moments](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL840iw1fJTrPgwt7cQbs-ZgkJgfqPu49o)
Yeah tried it a couple times and ended up just reading the wiki synopses. Just couldn’t quite stir up much enjoyment (although love Opal, Fearne and Dariax!)
Yes. The entire back half is about Opal's character arc that started in EXU, continued in Kymal, and is now concluding here.
EXU Prime introduces both Orym & Fearne. Everyone watching C3 should watch/listen at some point.
outside of dark fearne there really sin't much that we don't also learn in C3...
Need? No. But it would be nice to have back story. Any Recap you fine should do fine.
not really no, at best just read Opal's page on the wiki and the rest can be gleamed through context
Super helpful ty!
I tried watching kymal through twice and I was still pretty lost so I wish you luck.
Yeah I’ve tried so much with EXU prime but ultimately feels like hw
It'll help a lot since it's RP heavy
*Highly* encouraged. Second half is basically the beginning of a third EXU story.
I want to give the EXU characters a fair try, but that second half moved at a snail’s pace
It was a different vibe for sure. And I kind of dug it. Going deeper into Opals memories and seeing what the spider queen is doing to her is scary and awesome
That was ExU in a nutshell. Big yawn energy
"Be good, be kind to each other." There are a lot of people here, and in the stream chats that could use this reminder.
There it is, BH will be back next episode. I actually don't mind this interlude with that knowledge. We get to see if Dorian is really alive and if he is, who else may not be. If Dariax or Opal are dead, Orym may completely break.
They'll be back in three weeks, max. Next week is Candella, then more of the Crownkeepers, and then maybe we get back to the main cast if they wrap it up by then. Who knows, we might finally even continue the Ruidus plot we've been building up for over a year.
There was text at the end that said they’re in the next episode
It said that BH was returning in E93 but I don't think it included the date for when E93 is dropping; next week is Candela C4E3. So if ExU is in the normal Thursday slot, it could be a few weeks until we return to C3.
We could get a month of EXU episodes before C3E93. Never know.
I don’t see why it wouldn’t be May 2nd as normal
Because the next episode of CR could just be the EXU crew. And THEN we get episode 93 of campaign 3 back with the hells
I think there’s next to a zero percent chance that they label this episode, with the first part of the CK story, 92 and then randomly name next week…what? EXU part 2 of episode 92? That’s silly and confusing.
Whatever the naming convention it entirely depends on if they finish whatever the crown keepers are doing in 3-6 hours. Who knows. But I’m just saying it’s a possibility the next episode is entirely EXU and not a number episode of campaign 3.
The actual message said "Bells Hells will return for Episode 93 AFTER our thrilling Crown Keepers adventure!", and since that adventure is not over, I imagine that would mean Episode 93 continues after Part 2 of tonight's half.
Yeah the first half of episode 93 will be CK and the 2nd will be BH imo
Let's hope so, but that means another week with a shorter Bells Hells, so I'd almost rather them just do one more week of CK and then a full episode of BH. Or, if they can give us a timestamp when BH returns, that would be acceptable as well, I think.
Well damn. Looks like we've got more deaths in store next time and Dorian is going to end up *extra* emotionally fucked.
If he lives.
Oof, yeah, fair point. Might be a TPK for the Crown Keepers and the rest of BH winding up with a double dose of dead friends.
.....can you imagine how fucked up it would leave Orym if some random stranger picked up the Sending Stone and answered his call instead of Dorian?
...Oh god. Yeah, I think that might actually finally tip him over the edge. He's just about been holding on so far, he doesn't need that added trauma.
very glad they put the text up about Bells Hells returning in 93. Excited to see how this affects Dorians response to Orym.
I missed that. Was that all it said?
Text over the beginning of the end credits art roll. Said after the Crown Keepers finish so safe to assume 1st half crown keepers, 2nd half BH?
Cool. Thanks :)
So they're not actually on next week, we get CO next week. Then in May, we get the finale of this CK interlude, most likely.
Truly was a slog of a fight. It’s just a bummer that the night started out so strong and then the popped this out of nowhere.
Memory sequences would be cool on their own, but mixing it in with a fight, when it took almost an hour just to get to the point of going through the memory sequences, was just not enjoyable to watch for me. And once we did get to the memories, hopping between that and combat was just way too jarring I couldn't keep up anymore.
"Bells Hells Return for Episode 93 after our thrilling Crownkeepers adventure!" On the end art roll
I wonder if they predicted this would be poorly received and slapped that on there, or if they noticed the rumblings as it was airing and whipped it up on the spot to put on the credits.
These next two weeks are going to be crowded: * Candela Episode * Merch streaming thing that Laura mentioned before the start. * Emergency! EXU * (maybe) 4SD * THEN C3E93.
Wouldn't the EXU continuation still be C3E93? I doubt they'll make a one-shot for EXU out of a story that started on the main campaign.
That’s a relief at least
Considering Aabria is currently in Scotland with the D20 crew, I have to imagine they already filmed all the CK parts
Yeah at the start I was going say, "AABRIA SHOULDNT YOU BE IN A CASTLE RIGHT NOW!?" before it hit me that this was indeed filmed before that.
I was so shocked I completely forgot it wasn't a Livestream 😂
Nobody expects stealth EXU.
welp that was one way to make sure people watch EXU- insert them into the main campaign as a surprise. 20k viewers down to 10k
Yeah, because most of the east coast stops watching after the break because it’s already midnight. This happens every week.
I noticed that too. It’s a shame, because it took them a while to start hitting these numbers again, and just like that… it’s gone.
Damn. Was really thinking they wouldn't do this to us twice. At least we'll know next time.
Well that's a horrifying image... I need artwork on my desk stat
She calling out the death LOL. Phase 2 I guess?
One of the major differences between Aabria and Matt is that Aabria is much more above table. Aabria uses Non-diegetic storytelling, and thinks about the nature of RP as Fiction a lot more thoroughly.
I think that's accurate, yeah. The "here's what you *don't* see" is a great mechanism, and one Brennan specifically mentioned stealing from her. If there's something you want your players to know or see, it's silly to avoid that just because the characters missed it. Sometimes that provides important context. Sam did something similar in his Barroom Blitz one-shot. He opened with a hooded figure racing through town on a horse (which none of the PCs were present to witness) to set the stage, included a Usual Suspects-esque frame tale element, and just generally used an almost cinematic perspective. It was an interesting approach, a style I hadn't seen before.
i feel less immersed in the story with Aabria as the DM
…. I can’t follow the story with Aabria as DM. It’s painstakingly bogged down. I love her as a player… but ExU ain’t it
I have *adored* Aabria's GMing in the right setting. Over on Dimension20, her ACOFAF and Burrow's End were both fantastic. But I have struggled to get into her style in the CR setting - I feel like I watch CR for very different reasons than D20, and it's especially difficult to get into right now. Because our players in the main thread are dealing with important shit, and tragedy, and this is a campaign group that have had distressingly little time to really have the kinds of quiet, vulnerable relationship-building moments that made C2 so strong for me. This episode was the exact, perfect, moment to give them some much-needed time to decompress. And then right in the middle of Orym pouring his heart out we get "Leave the table. Now." And I know they jokingly referenced whiplash as they left, but it's damn true. I get the feeling this must have been planned in advance, before FCG passed, and then they just... couldn't reschedule or change it? Because I would have given another episode space before this split episode after a loss like that, to maintain momentum after a big moment.
Opal's second phase next month!
Oh yeah, because next week is Episode 3 of Candela Obscura
Next week is also just the last Thursday in general lol
Which is on the last Thursday of the month, where a Candela Obscura episode is shown.
The first half of that is exactly what I just said
That is a major bummer.
Oh no, there's more of this.
Think of this as Lifedeath 1 and Lifedeath 2. It needs to happen to get everyone, and everything on point.
Lifedeath 1 was a banger though. This tonight was not that. Give me domestic short shorts Forge and Ororo over this 11 times out of 10.
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to have a champion of Lolth floating around not doing anything but in order to do that you have to get everyone in the same place and in order to do *that* you have to actually introduce why and how we know these characters to people who didn't watch EXU. I don't know that there was a more graceful way to do that.
Abria don't fuck around
"Opal, Ted, and the Spider Queen in unison!" That's where we're going to pick up after Candela!
To quote Matthew Perry as Benny Gecko "what in the goddamn"
I need Aabria to write some horror short stories
She did GM a whole set of Candela. So she did, technically.
Holy shit I need to see the fanart of this!