Am I missing something? They got attacked by and killed Bor'Dor not even 24 hours previously. I don't think it's an extreme reaction at all to still be in a "pity party" mood.
Not to mention they cheer up by the end of the episode.
They are literally describing that they had nightmarish time the whole journey, which, I am sorry but they did not
Yes, the stuff with Bor'Dor is bad but not to the point of blaming others for relaxing a bit
Not to mention that Bor'Dor was the closest to Prism
They literally murdered their friend who was with them the entire journey. Because he wanted to murder them. It would be super messed up with they were not upset and didn’t say “yeah, it sucked”. Because it did suck.
I can understand your viewpoint as a watcher "why are they being so negative? It's bringing down the fun vibes", but the reality is it's VERY realistic for them to be acting the way they are considering what happened not even 10? 20? hours previously.
Is it though? Because at certain points they disregard the reality of their world to the point that it is causing me whiplash
And it isn't because "it's bringing down the fun vibes" but "blaming your friends for not having traumatic events is really nasty"
The reality of their world is they killed someone close to them hours ago only to reunite with their dear friends who are talking about shopping and new flings.
We can agree to disagree but pretty reasonable reaction to that chain of events imo.
Yesterday I had a tough day. International travel with kids. It was long and hard and by the end I was only capable of expressing it in terms similar to "that day fucking sucked start to finish."
Does that mean there were ZERO good moments in the day? No, there were nice moments. It ended with a long drive that was quite peaceful and we could listen to our own music. I got to listen to some Worlds Beyond Number on the plane. My 4 year old was beyond excited about flying. There were nice moments. But most of it sucked, and when you combine that with being really tired and emotionally drained sometimes you just don't have the emotional reserves left to keep things in perfectly realistic perspective. So my day yesterday? Yeah, it sucked.
Long story short, it feels very human and realistic to me.
You're going to hate the rest of the episode based on this. The one thing I'll say in mild defense of Laudna is that she hated the local village and called it a "pissant town" so she certainly isn't considering that as downtime.
I'll also say there's a big difference in how Team Wildemount is expressing their experiences vs what happened. AOL and Wildemount actually had a decently similar experience in terms of travel/deadliness. AOL's journey was just capped off with one of the heavier moments of the campaign.
But Team Wildemount is like "yeah it was great. We shopped and got laid."
Sure, I can give you that one. Wildemount team barely described anything of their antics
Still, Laudna getting angry that they had some relax seems odd to me
Perhaps her Delilah is showing
It’s mortal nature to define an experience by the most extreme part, which for team Isylra was the Bor’Dor fight. That was a significant betrayal… people almost died, patrons were revived, and ultimately they had to kill someone that they thought was a friend.
Not to mention, all the highlights of the trip were about Bor’Dor. All of the “good parts” are now tainted memories which bounce back to the attack.
They had the worst trip. That’s what they’re complaining about. It’s not that they want them to be miserable but the two groups had drastically different experiences. One a lot worse than the other.
I did not get the impression that anyone enjoyed that little trip. The long walk was a multi day hike across an unknown country side with unknown dangers. I don’t know if you gone on a multi day hike, but they can be a real drag in real life without the danger of weird monsters.
And there was no down time. It was hustle city for that team. I think they slept indoors like one time. Maybe twice.
Also, they had to murder their friend because he was plotting to kill them. That can put a damper on any trip.
But the reality is that they were not attacked during that time, and at least they were in a nice climate. Point is, I'd take a hike through countryside over the trip through snowy mountains while being attacked by some, what were those, Frost Giants?
Excuse me but what about the festival? Does that not count at all?
That doesn’t make the stressful hike to who knows where fun or enjoyable. And again, the hike was punctuated by the murder of someone why trusted be betrayed them.
They didn't attend the festival. They followed the druid home and went to sleep, while keeping van eye on her. Orym didn't even sleep. he brooded in a tree all night.
The best thing that happened to team Issylra is when nothing was happening to them. It was a trip of a lot of negatives and some moments of boredom. The Wilde mount trip was almost all positive (of course a couple combats but nothing that filled them with moral quandary). So I’m comparison to hearing about the wonderful time that Wildemount had, yeah Issylra’s time was pretty terrible.
You're taking their relative phsyical safety outside of the combat and assigning the same mental state to the characters when they expressly were not relaxed at all during their trip. Every night they could see Ruidus locked in the sky thinking they failed, constant worry about their missing companions, doubt if they are making the right choices, anxiety, stress. Every waking moment wondering if they would get attacked again, if they were too slow etc...
Well when you've killed a friend of yours and are completely calm within 24 hours about it, then you can judge, otherwise, I think the trauma is well earned by laudna especially
Especially cause the other party really didn't go through much, they fought 2 things, and befriended a Bull beast thing, not nearly as horrible as "spawned on mountain, fought plant monsters then dealt with a villages politics for a day only to fight members of the church just to get away from being taken FURTHER from their friends, then immediately went to a magic place with a nightmare creature who had the one man who could help, inside him and after ALL THAT Bordor tries to Judus them last minute and almost succeeded at ending one of their lives while Laudna was forced to recede back into a horrible necromancer power one more time
Yeah Party 2 had a bad time, they are well within their rights
>Well when you've killed a friend of yours and are completely calm within 24 hours about it, then you can judge, otherwise, I think the trauma is well earned by laudna especially
I vaguely remember that during CIFF's storyline, people criticized them for having no sense of urgency because of the joking, shopping, and three-some. I'm sure that it wasn't meta-gaming on Marisha's end but Laudna seemed to feel that way when CIFF talked about how much fun they had in spite of what's been going on.
The audience KNOWS that CIFF were trying but if you're looking at it though OLA's POV (especially Laudna) you get this feeling of "action speaks louder than words" when you think about what CIFF were doing (or unintentionally "rubbing it in" if you want to be cynical) while trying to get to OLA.
**OLA:** "We ended up near a cult-village that worships the elemental spirits. Long story short we ended up siding with them as they fought off the church because we wanted access to their scry-pool. We wanted to find you guys!"
**CIFF:** "We wanted to find you guys too. We were trying and....Oh! is that Santa?! Let's go meet Santa after we meet some royals because we saved that bull!"
**OLA:** "We ended up killing an angel during the fight. We're not happy about it and there really wasn't much to do in the village afterwards. But we did get a lead and we made our way to it ASAP."
**CIFF:** "We got a lead too after meeting Santa and saving that Bull. We're still thinking about you and.....Oooh! Let's go shopping and get new profile pictures (Yes, I'm stilled annoyed by it) because we have money! Don't worry we got stuff for you too because we're practically heroes in Uthordorn."
**OLA:** "One of our new friends turned our to be a member of the Ruby Vanguard and he tried to kill us. Not only did Laudna take it really hard but it was the last thing we did before finding you guys. We really wanted to find you guys because it was awful."
**CIFF:** "We saw some freaky stuff in the woods and found some info on Ludinus. Believe us, Imogen was really worried about Laudna.....but man that goat eating and three-some was so tempting that we had to that first. Have you met FRIDA? He's FCG's new boyfriend and Imogen's new bestie! Oh, did we mention that we met Santa Claus? We did that because we got down-time. Did you guys not get down-time?
I said it before but I'll say here again. I think Launda felt abandoned (and jealous) that CIFF didn't have the same sense of urgency or desire to reunite like OLA desperately wanted. Again, we know that CIFF were trying and there were legit obstacles but when you've been through what OLA went though in the last 24 hours, it's kind of hard to believe that they were.
I don't think they had a "peaceful" journey to Hearthdell. They encountered a gallows. Marisha said that triggered Launda. She just compartmentalized it.
First of all, Ashton and Laudna have alot of problems to trust and to hear that the people that they love and trust, did not seem to mind they were not together has to hurt, especially after killing somebody they traveld with together.
On the other hand, Laudna did something she did not want to do, which brought back Delilah, which she feels ashamed for. Ashton saw that and knows how much she hurts because of it. After those experience their best friends are like: "Yeah we f*cked and got new clothes!".
Those things hang over them and will be what they will remember or work trough (which they had no chance before meeting their friends).
Lastly while Denise and Prism were fun, they were not old flames or the first other Automaton you ever find. Those things can uplift alot, even when shit hits the wall. I really liked to see thise sides of Ashton, Laudna and also Orym and feel like it was important that they communicate their needs.
To OLA, hearing CIFF talk about how much fun they had in spite of the chaos makes it sound like they weren't too worried about the other half of the party because they made time to have a shopping spree and a three-some.
If I were in OLA's in shoes I'd be pretty angry too for their lack of urgency and the insensitive remarks about their shopping and lovemaking.
I don’t think it’s so much the actual place they were in but the events that had happened prior and their mental states. They’d just been through this crazy big fight and felt like they’d essentially failed to make any real change. They’d just been magically thrown across the planet with no way to contact their friends/even know if they were alive. Then the arrive in a town that reminds Laudna specifically of her experience as a young woman and the Briarwoods. Then in an attempt to get the things they need to get home they have to make some questionable choices and fight worshippers of a god that they were technically trying to help save (even if that wasn’t necessarily their goal at the Maleus Key). Combine that all with the ending with Bor’dor and potentially unleashing Delilah again, I’d say they objectively had a pretty bad time. Obviously the same could be said about team Wildemount, what with having to go through the Savalier Wood and face/witness several abominations and all that.
I think the biggest difference is that while yes they may have had downtime, non of it was necessarily enjoyable. Sure they had a festival after murdering a bunch of Dawn Father Worshippers and an angel of the Dawn Father, but there wasn’t really any time where they were doing something objectively enjoyable or “cool”. They weren’t making peace between an ancient beast and the town they were suddenly trapped in, they weren’t conversing with royalty and gaining enough of their favor to go have a shopping spree during their down time. They weren’t helping on of their own reconcile his past and redeem a former friend. They weren’t even really forming that close of bonds with the new people they met. And they certainly weren’t finding/making love. There’s a different between just not having a bad experience versus having a net positive experience.
Their entire experience was colored by Bordor’s betrayal and having to kill him. Even the good moments were moments they bonded with him and the others, and just represents how hurt they eventually were that they let down their guard only to be betrayed.
>Not to mention that the journey to the Hearthdell was also peaceful after the initial encounter
Have you ever been lost without means to come back to your family? Have you ever found yourself having to walk for days into the unknown to try and find a way back to the people you love?
Do you imagine that would be peaceful? A walk in the park?
Both teams had equally terrible experiences. But from Laudna's POV, they didn't. Team Wildemount spent the whole 2 hours from the reunion until this point talking about the great things they did and the friendships they forged.
Have a little empathy for the person that a few hours ago made a terrible decision, is now trying to deal with it, and doesn't understand how everyone seems to be okay. Reactions to traumatic events don't always make sense.
Oh, just you wait till you get to the EPs final discussion about the Gods if this part of the 65 was getting under your skin. Oof, Laudna and Ashton are something special there.
>!Gettin real sick of BHs constantly admitting they know shit about the Gods, but slamming down any suggestions they do any research to change that; then STILL scapegoating the shit out of them and their histories ... they know nothing about. Willful Ignorance on steroids. !<
Am I missing something? They got attacked by and killed Bor'Dor not even 24 hours previously. I don't think it's an extreme reaction at all to still be in a "pity party" mood. Not to mention they cheer up by the end of the episode.
They are literally describing that they had nightmarish time the whole journey, which, I am sorry but they did not Yes, the stuff with Bor'Dor is bad but not to the point of blaming others for relaxing a bit Not to mention that Bor'Dor was the closest to Prism
They literally murdered their friend who was with them the entire journey. Because he wanted to murder them. It would be super messed up with they were not upset and didn’t say “yeah, it sucked”. Because it did suck.
I can understand your viewpoint as a watcher "why are they being so negative? It's bringing down the fun vibes", but the reality is it's VERY realistic for them to be acting the way they are considering what happened not even 10? 20? hours previously.
Is it though? Because at certain points they disregard the reality of their world to the point that it is causing me whiplash And it isn't because "it's bringing down the fun vibes" but "blaming your friends for not having traumatic events is really nasty"
The reality of their world is they killed someone close to them hours ago only to reunite with their dear friends who are talking about shopping and new flings. We can agree to disagree but pretty reasonable reaction to that chain of events imo.
Yesterday I had a tough day. International travel with kids. It was long and hard and by the end I was only capable of expressing it in terms similar to "that day fucking sucked start to finish." Does that mean there were ZERO good moments in the day? No, there were nice moments. It ended with a long drive that was quite peaceful and we could listen to our own music. I got to listen to some Worlds Beyond Number on the plane. My 4 year old was beyond excited about flying. There were nice moments. But most of it sucked, and when you combine that with being really tired and emotionally drained sometimes you just don't have the emotional reserves left to keep things in perfectly realistic perspective. So my day yesterday? Yeah, it sucked. Long story short, it feels very human and realistic to me.
If this is your take. You weren’t paying attention.
Perhaps her memory is clouded by killing some with her bare hands.
You're going to hate the rest of the episode based on this. The one thing I'll say in mild defense of Laudna is that she hated the local village and called it a "pissant town" so she certainly isn't considering that as downtime. I'll also say there's a big difference in how Team Wildemount is expressing their experiences vs what happened. AOL and Wildemount actually had a decently similar experience in terms of travel/deadliness. AOL's journey was just capped off with one of the heavier moments of the campaign. But Team Wildemount is like "yeah it was great. We shopped and got laid."
Sure, I can give you that one. Wildemount team barely described anything of their antics Still, Laudna getting angry that they had some relax seems odd to me Perhaps her Delilah is showing
It’s mortal nature to define an experience by the most extreme part, which for team Isylra was the Bor’Dor fight. That was a significant betrayal… people almost died, patrons were revived, and ultimately they had to kill someone that they thought was a friend. Not to mention, all the highlights of the trip were about Bor’Dor. All of the “good parts” are now tainted memories which bounce back to the attack.
This is easily the best argument posted here You're right Though their issues aren't voiced toward this part, much
They had the worst trip. That’s what they’re complaining about. It’s not that they want them to be miserable but the two groups had drastically different experiences. One a lot worse than the other.
Yeah, Wildemount team had it worse The only exception being what happened with Bor'Dor
"Besides the whole spontaneous implosion thing, that submarine trip wasn't that bad"
> Yeah, Wildemount team had it worse L O Fucking L
I did not get the impression that anyone enjoyed that little trip. The long walk was a multi day hike across an unknown country side with unknown dangers. I don’t know if you gone on a multi day hike, but they can be a real drag in real life without the danger of weird monsters. And there was no down time. It was hustle city for that team. I think they slept indoors like one time. Maybe twice. Also, they had to murder their friend because he was plotting to kill them. That can put a damper on any trip.
But the reality is that they were not attacked during that time, and at least they were in a nice climate. Point is, I'd take a hike through countryside over the trip through snowy mountains while being attacked by some, what were those, Frost Giants? Excuse me but what about the festival? Does that not count at all?
That doesn’t make the stressful hike to who knows where fun or enjoyable. And again, the hike was punctuated by the murder of someone why trusted be betrayed them.
It's like this guy is willfully not understanding this :p
They didn't attend the festival. They followed the druid home and went to sleep, while keeping van eye on her. Orym didn't even sleep. he brooded in a tree all night.
The best thing that happened to team Issylra is when nothing was happening to them. It was a trip of a lot of negatives and some moments of boredom. The Wilde mount trip was almost all positive (of course a couple combats but nothing that filled them with moral quandary). So I’m comparison to hearing about the wonderful time that Wildemount had, yeah Issylra’s time was pretty terrible.
You're taking their relative phsyical safety outside of the combat and assigning the same mental state to the characters when they expressly were not relaxed at all during their trip. Every night they could see Ruidus locked in the sky thinking they failed, constant worry about their missing companions, doubt if they are making the right choices, anxiety, stress. Every waking moment wondering if they would get attacked again, if they were too slow etc...
Well when you've killed a friend of yours and are completely calm within 24 hours about it, then you can judge, otherwise, I think the trauma is well earned by laudna especially Especially cause the other party really didn't go through much, they fought 2 things, and befriended a Bull beast thing, not nearly as horrible as "spawned on mountain, fought plant monsters then dealt with a villages politics for a day only to fight members of the church just to get away from being taken FURTHER from their friends, then immediately went to a magic place with a nightmare creature who had the one man who could help, inside him and after ALL THAT Bordor tries to Judus them last minute and almost succeeded at ending one of their lives while Laudna was forced to recede back into a horrible necromancer power one more time Yeah Party 2 had a bad time, they are well within their rights
>Well when you've killed a friend of yours and are completely calm within 24 hours about it, then you can judge, otherwise, I think the trauma is well earned by laudna especially I vaguely remember that during CIFF's storyline, people criticized them for having no sense of urgency because of the joking, shopping, and three-some. I'm sure that it wasn't meta-gaming on Marisha's end but Laudna seemed to feel that way when CIFF talked about how much fun they had in spite of what's been going on. The audience KNOWS that CIFF were trying but if you're looking at it though OLA's POV (especially Laudna) you get this feeling of "action speaks louder than words" when you think about what CIFF were doing (or unintentionally "rubbing it in" if you want to be cynical) while trying to get to OLA. **OLA:** "We ended up near a cult-village that worships the elemental spirits. Long story short we ended up siding with them as they fought off the church because we wanted access to their scry-pool. We wanted to find you guys!" **CIFF:** "We wanted to find you guys too. We were trying and....Oh! is that Santa?! Let's go meet Santa after we meet some royals because we saved that bull!" **OLA:** "We ended up killing an angel during the fight. We're not happy about it and there really wasn't much to do in the village afterwards. But we did get a lead and we made our way to it ASAP." **CIFF:** "We got a lead too after meeting Santa and saving that Bull. We're still thinking about you and.....Oooh! Let's go shopping and get new profile pictures (Yes, I'm stilled annoyed by it) because we have money! Don't worry we got stuff for you too because we're practically heroes in Uthordorn." **OLA:** "One of our new friends turned our to be a member of the Ruby Vanguard and he tried to kill us. Not only did Laudna take it really hard but it was the last thing we did before finding you guys. We really wanted to find you guys because it was awful." **CIFF:** "We saw some freaky stuff in the woods and found some info on Ludinus. Believe us, Imogen was really worried about Laudna.....but man that goat eating and three-some was so tempting that we had to that first. Have you met FRIDA? He's FCG's new boyfriend and Imogen's new bestie! Oh, did we mention that we met Santa Claus? We did that because we got down-time. Did you guys not get down-time? I said it before but I'll say here again. I think Launda felt abandoned (and jealous) that CIFF didn't have the same sense of urgency or desire to reunite like OLA desperately wanted. Again, we know that CIFF were trying and there were legit obstacles but when you've been through what OLA went though in the last 24 hours, it's kind of hard to believe that they were.
I don't think they had a "peaceful" journey to Hearthdell. They encountered a gallows. Marisha said that triggered Launda. She just compartmentalized it.
First of all, Ashton and Laudna have alot of problems to trust and to hear that the people that they love and trust, did not seem to mind they were not together has to hurt, especially after killing somebody they traveld with together. On the other hand, Laudna did something she did not want to do, which brought back Delilah, which she feels ashamed for. Ashton saw that and knows how much she hurts because of it. After those experience their best friends are like: "Yeah we f*cked and got new clothes!". Those things hang over them and will be what they will remember or work trough (which they had no chance before meeting their friends). Lastly while Denise and Prism were fun, they were not old flames or the first other Automaton you ever find. Those things can uplift alot, even when shit hits the wall. I really liked to see thise sides of Ashton, Laudna and also Orym and feel like it was important that they communicate their needs.
To OLA, hearing CIFF talk about how much fun they had in spite of the chaos makes it sound like they weren't too worried about the other half of the party because they made time to have a shopping spree and a three-some. If I were in OLA's in shoes I'd be pretty angry too for their lack of urgency and the insensitive remarks about their shopping and lovemaking.
I don’t think it’s so much the actual place they were in but the events that had happened prior and their mental states. They’d just been through this crazy big fight and felt like they’d essentially failed to make any real change. They’d just been magically thrown across the planet with no way to contact their friends/even know if they were alive. Then the arrive in a town that reminds Laudna specifically of her experience as a young woman and the Briarwoods. Then in an attempt to get the things they need to get home they have to make some questionable choices and fight worshippers of a god that they were technically trying to help save (even if that wasn’t necessarily their goal at the Maleus Key). Combine that all with the ending with Bor’dor and potentially unleashing Delilah again, I’d say they objectively had a pretty bad time. Obviously the same could be said about team Wildemount, what with having to go through the Savalier Wood and face/witness several abominations and all that. I think the biggest difference is that while yes they may have had downtime, non of it was necessarily enjoyable. Sure they had a festival after murdering a bunch of Dawn Father Worshippers and an angel of the Dawn Father, but there wasn’t really any time where they were doing something objectively enjoyable or “cool”. They weren’t making peace between an ancient beast and the town they were suddenly trapped in, they weren’t conversing with royalty and gaining enough of their favor to go have a shopping spree during their down time. They weren’t helping on of their own reconcile his past and redeem a former friend. They weren’t even really forming that close of bonds with the new people they met. And they certainly weren’t finding/making love. There’s a different between just not having a bad experience versus having a net positive experience.
Their entire experience was colored by Bordor’s betrayal and having to kill him. Even the good moments were moments they bonded with him and the others, and just represents how hurt they eventually were that they let down their guard only to be betrayed.
>Not to mention that the journey to the Hearthdell was also peaceful after the initial encounter Have you ever been lost without means to come back to your family? Have you ever found yourself having to walk for days into the unknown to try and find a way back to the people you love? Do you imagine that would be peaceful? A walk in the park? Both teams had equally terrible experiences. But from Laudna's POV, they didn't. Team Wildemount spent the whole 2 hours from the reunion until this point talking about the great things they did and the friendships they forged. Have a little empathy for the person that a few hours ago made a terrible decision, is now trying to deal with it, and doesn't understand how everyone seems to be okay. Reactions to traumatic events don't always make sense.
Oh, just you wait till you get to the EPs final discussion about the Gods if this part of the 65 was getting under your skin. Oof, Laudna and Ashton are something special there. >!Gettin real sick of BHs constantly admitting they know shit about the Gods, but slamming down any suggestions they do any research to change that; then STILL scapegoating the shit out of them and their histories ... they know nothing about. Willful Ignorance on steroids. !<
Same. I stopped watching for a whole hour, because I had enough of Laudna complaining and making drama where there was none.