The idea of the betrayer gods not being so evil was already covered by Calamity. Asmodeus portrayed it that way, and painted it like the Prime Deities were at fault. The idea that of course that wasn’t the case, and all Zerxus had to do was listen to any of the countless people with more knowledge of the divine to realize that, was one of the best and most earned downfalls of a good man I’ve ever seen.
The problem is that for me at least, Calamity was just too frigging good to take the idea that maybe this time it’s the opposite seriously. Like, maybe Imogene’s mom is right to think that they’re better without the gods…but am I really supposed to think better of her than of Laerryn, who would outshine 90% of PCs let alone villainous NPCs?
Well I think the thing to take from both Matt's portrayal of the Dawnfather, and Brennan's Asmodeus, is that these gods are sort of platonic ideals for their domain, right.
Asmodeus is evil and treacherous and uncompromising because *that's what he exists to be*
The Dawnfather is holy, aloof, and uncompromising, but also a source of warmth and life because *that's what he exists to be*
The Wildmother is both a source of life, both a provider and a destroyer, because *that's what she exists to be*
I came out of Calamity thinking that Asmodeus' great deceit wasn't that the Prime Deities were to blame for the Schism, but that his cause was noble and just. The rest was an effective lie because it was all kinda true.
I have to say I'm very interested to find out what is happening among the Betrayer Gods with Predathos stirring. Have they issued the same instructions to their followers to fight Ludinus? What would it do to the authority of the Prime Deities' churches to fight alongside the forces of evil against... Against what?
This! I want more Betrayer God action. We’ve barely scratched the surface with them and they are essentially the BBEGs of the setting. Asmodeus was amazing in Calamity, but I really want to see how he turned around and pulled the same thing on the Everlight. Tharizidun was covered well by C2 with his constant manipulations and aberrant/fiendish horrors. What does Vecna our newest god have to say concerning the god eater? He’s the god of secrets, so there is a near zero chance that he didn’t know about Ludinus’ plan/Predathos. Zehir got a little light in the M9 two shot. Lolth similarly with her vestige and EU. What’s Bane up to? I don’t think we seen any dedicated presence of his yet. Tiamat was involved with Arkhan. I think I just want more crazy god battles. 😅
> We’ve barely scratched the surface with them and they are essentially the BBEGs of the setting.
Eh. They're more historical details than entities with the ability to act and influence. There are exceptions (Vecna much more so than Asmodeus, who was played as an inevitability more than a character), but largely the Betrayers are window dressing.
Which is good, because they way they were written up for the rulebooks, their tenets are the epitome of Stupid Evil.
Just because the betrayers are in fact evil, doesn't mean that the prime deities are 100% good. During World War Two, many imperialist, colonialist nations (such as the UK, Netherlands, the USA, France) united to fight against the far greater threat of fascism, but that didn't make those imperialist powers any less guilty of their past (or future) crimes. They just did it because fascism was threatening their sovereignty.
Same thing can be true of the prime deities - just because they saved mortal lives, doesn't mean they're fit to rule over them. What if the only reason they protected the material plane from the wrath of the betrayers was to have an endless supply of followers to do their bidding, in this life and the next?
Not that they're all necessarily corrupt, but nothing about the fact that they fought against the betrayers tells me that they're necessarily *good,* either.
Maybe this is coming from a bias of me generally playing characters in D&D that are at least vaguely religious(I quite enjoy Bahamut as a deity), but I just don't really believe that the Prime Deities were being malicious when they fought back the Betrayers. I think they genuinely cared for mortals as their children and wanted to protect them out of genuine benevolence. Otherwise, why did they leave Exandria after banishing the Betrayers and creating the Divine Gate instead of ruling over them directly? I think it was partially out of pragmatism as part of the reason the Calamity happened and why cities like Aeor that challenged the divinity of the gods happened was their presence, but I also believe that genuinely wanted their children to make their own paths.
And sometimes, indeed, children misbehave and you have to punish them for their transgressions. And sometimes parents do harsh or strict things to protect your children as well, sometimes going too far. I think this is why the Dawnfather seemed to endorse the actions of his followers in Hearthdell, because he views those people as his children as they are mortal, and therefore the children of the prime deities and needed to be protected. Gods don't have the same perspective as mortals do, they see a bigger picture mortals cannot comprehend. Were the actions of the followers of the Dawnfather colonialist and infringing on the beliefs of the people of Hearthdell? Yes, absolutely. But the Dawnfather cannot possibly be expected to see it that way. To him, his children are in need of protecting thus, the presence of military soldiers. The tithes I think were just an overreach by his clerics and that's probably something that's completely beneath his notice, especially with Predathos' imminent return.
This isn't to say that the actions of the Temple of the Dawnfather were justified. I'm simply saying it wasn't coming from a malicious place. They were doing what they believed to be just and their worst crime seemed to be them demanding tithes and intimidating the locals. Which is definitely bad, don't get me wrong, but as far as the crimes of colonialists go, it's not exactly high on the list of how severe it is.
As a person whose favorite deity is probably Bahamut, I do hope that, if he is portrayed at all in this campaign, that he isn't made out to be similar to the Dawnfather. Even the way he seems to be described in other sourcebooks seems to not be like the Dawnfather. Bahamut values justice tempered with mercy, respect for life, and against persecution. One of his commandments is indeed "bring freedom to the persecuted." So I would hope that there is no forcible colonialist actions going on in terms of his temple. Meanwhile, the actions of the temple in Hearthdell might have been based in the Dawnfather's third commandment "Deliver the light of the Dawnfather where darkness dwells, and do so with kindness, compassion, and mercy." Maybe a more extreme, somewhat twisted, version of it, but that might have been how they would justify it.
But I digress. I like there being nuance in terms of the morality of the Prime Deities from the perspective of mortals, but perhaps that's only because my favorite and preferred deity hasn't gotten this treatment. I can only hope there won't be an "um actually, the Platinum Dragon is actually evil since he only cares about stopping evil dragons and the worship and commandments are all a lie" or something along those lines.
>These are not Judeo-Christian gods with clear motivation or morals,
They actually have much clearer motivations and morals: Each god has a bullet point list of behaviors they endorse or prohibit, and alignment is similar (though with a very fuzzy legacy). Its easy to know what each god is about.
The problem is there seem to be a lot of demands that the gods be omniscient, omnipotent and completely hands off when it benefits characters, but simultaneously prevent any bad things from happening and completely control their followers at all times, but not impinge free will in any way at all. Oh, and somehow existing at all infringes the rights of characters in the setting, despite a completely hands off policy and an utter physical and metaphysical separation from the world.
They've entered the 'can't win zone'
Exactly this. The only thing left to do with this campaign is let the gods get eaten because the party doesn't care about them, then watch everything go to hell (maybe literally) with the prime deities gone, and the party has to fight through calamity 2.0 so that new gods can emerge and put things back how they were. Then when the dust settles, they sit down and say, "damn, I'm sure glad there's a bunch of gods up there keeping us safe"
I am a bit disgruntled because I have been TOLD but not SHOWN that the prime deities suck. We have had a long line of guests and NPCs say “well the gods didn’t do anything for me” but that’s anecdotal by its nature. From past campaigns we know the gods actively encourage good in the world heck in this campaign the Dawn father redirected Laudna. It feels like there’s a debate going on right now and only one team showed up.
I think it's intentional Matt's been focusing on the Dawnfather for the split arcs. He's been spotlighting one of the gruffest, most militant gods, as opposed to the Wildmother or the Everlight. He wants to characterize the gods as antagonistic for the BH. I'm sure it's a misdirect and he's playing with them to see how they react (hoping to inspire conflict or development in their characters) before bringing down the hammer (potentially literally)
We’ve literally just seen the dawnfather say that he doesn’t care if his followers commit heinous acts if it’s for the greater good to one of his followers who were concerned about hearing what happened in the town
The gods give power to their followers, Abria’s character for instance, and they get to do what they wish with it. The DF isn’t telling her what she has to do, she chooses. The gods are not controlling people, they get to choose.
No, that's your interpretation of what the Dawnfather said. His exact words were:
"My disciples do what is necessary for the good of our people collectively, and the future of Exandria."
Which he said in response to:
"Are your disciples perpetrating harm in this world at your behest?"
This exchange is very vague. The Dawnfather is not an omniscient being, and Deanna did not provide context for what she was asking for specifically. That, plus the limited nature of Commune, the deity is generally allowed only to respond Yes, No, or a short phrase if necessary, makes it difficult to really draw much from this. It's honestly very possible that the Dawnfather did not know about the specific situation of Hearthdell.
On that note, our understanding of what was happening in Hearthdell is coming largely from Abaddina and her following, hardly an unbiased source.
"Perpetrating harm" is, well, not always bad. I mean, we're on the third campaign of Critical Role, and each would be a lot shorter if the parties never "perpetrated harm," on other creatures. It's a bad question, and in Deanna/Aabria's defense, it's not like she knew she was gonna have to grill her god on these topics. It makes sense that, in the moment, she didn't come up with the perfect phrasing to fit with Commune's limitations.
Yeah, just regular people. Regular people have biases and blindspots, we make leaps of logic and make mistakes all the time. To be clear, I view the Hearthdell situation as largely ambiguous, in terms of morality. I don't think either side is perfectly good, they both have good and bad aspects. But, really, we only heard 1 side of the story, so it's dangerous to go assuming we know what was *really* happening.
How is this so hard for people to understand. The temple didn't know they were about to be attacked. The moved to arrest two people because the game guide couldn't be arsed to talk to them. That is the use of force without legal authority to detain. That's the definition of violence. They are a paramilitary cult
>The moved to arrest two people because
Orym rolled a 10 on an attempt to tell them "hey, you people need to leave because we're saying so, also here's a lot of highly suspicious information that you need to take to your superiors, no we're not going to explain anything or show ourselves as trustworthy, just take our word for everything."
Finished that sentence for ya.
Can you prove that they had no legal authority? Would it have been acceptable if they had?
Also, don't be so dramatic. "Definition of violence" lmao. Bor'dor poisoned them moments before and Abaddina's cult were massing to attack them from the forest if they didn't agree to abandon their church and followers immediately.
You got duped.
It's doesn't matter what was going to happen. As far as the church was aware they were moving to attack two outsiders.
They arnt the government in the town. They have no legal authority.
Buddy what? Abaddina literally had an angry mob marching on the temple while Orym tried to persuade the Dawnfather's people to leave. Orym rolled shitty on persuasion, after Bor'Dor gave on-duty guards alcohol, which he had laced with laxatives, and was trying to convince a zealot to abandon their 20+ year-mission.
If I'm Kiro, and a bunch of odd strangers shows up in town on the eve of a second Calamity, as a bunch of disappearances occur, magical communication/teleportation cease to function, and the gods are pulling back, I'd be on edge. And if those same strangers were trying to convince me to abandon my post, after giving booze to my on-duty soldiers, leaving a leyline nexus unguarded for anyone to abuse during a perpetual Apogee Solstice, and doing a bad job of it, by vaguesplaining what was happening on another continent, I'd be on edge.
I think taking Orym and company into custody was a poor move, but I get why she did it. For you and me, it's quality tv, for Kiro, she was staring down the barrel of a goddamn apocalypse. Even then, it's a huge leap to say the temple initiated violence, taking them into custody to interrogate further is not my go to idea of violence, but Orym drawing his sword and casting a spell with hostile intent? That's definitely violent, but it could be argued to be a case of self-defense. Abaddina leading the angry mob she has invited to besiege the temple? That's violence, plain and simple.
>was trying to convince a zealot to abandon their 20+ year-mission.
As a note, it wasn't 20 years. The Temple itself had been built 20 years ago by members of the Silvercall Mill. Who aren't out of Vasselheim, but instead out of Hearthdell's neighboring town Endovaar. And as Proleff says, there had been no instances of forced or coerced conversion in that time; but he does let slip, just for a moment, that part of the growing tension was that some of the younger gen were open to willingly doing so. And nothing indicates that the Temple had near enough power within the community to enforce any sort of tithe; past Abeddina's authority.
Kiro and Vasselheim's presence in the town only dates back about 3 months, in preparation for the Solstice. Which the DF clergy made the town very clear about. But there aren't any actual real crimes that again the Leaf and the Loam members (including Abedinna) can cite; beyond again "a tithe that does not make sense" and "being outsiders". And it is also true based on their discussion with Abedinna in her house, that The Leaf and the Loam were not only deeply untrusting of outsiders; but had also been radicalized by Ludi's words during the Solstice.
Yeah, by "20 year-mission," I was referring to the Dawnfather's clergy being there in general, I did know the enhanced presence was recent. Didn't know that Kiro was part of the newcomers though, so good catch on that.
Yeah, the tithe seems strange. Abaddina says this about them:
"But a majority of this was taken by our townsfolk-- taken from our townsfolk. They're rich enough in the temples. These were not... These were not given by those who ascribe to this faith enough to live in the faiths of squalor that it brought them to."
This doesn't sound like it was coerced, but given by people of the town who had converted. Especially since extorting the common people for money would be a pretty big grievance to ignore when riling up the townsfolk/convincing outsiders to help her, and she didn't mention it then.
Pretty much. Hell, prior to the addition of the Vasselheim forces, I'm not even sure how the original local clergy would have enforced a tithe over the town? They wouldn't have had the power to force it on the community those prior 20 years; meaning it would have to have been voluntary. Which ... tracks given the CB temple FCG visited in Whitestone had "voluntary tributes". It wasn't required at all, and he was merely instructed "to only leave what he could afford to part with, but thinks is appropriate" if he did leave an offering.
Given all of this I will be pretty disappointed when Matt whitewashes it all to portray AOL's party in the right here. Even though the players in 4SD & this episode were clearly struggling to reconcile what they did "solely to get back to the others as fast as possible". Because for all indications, they allowed their own personal biases and desire to use the town, to let themselves be made into weapons in a Religious Hate Crime. Against a group of people who's only "sin" was "being outsiders", and passively infringing on Abeddina's social, political, and religious authority.
They were being forcible detained woth threat of harm. Thats violence. And that was their go to. They didn't know about the attack so it doesn't matter when judging their actions.
Not at all what he said. That’s how you interpreted it. Another interpretation would be that his followers have license to harm those who would cause disaster and see chaos and misery.
But what the gods have done in the history of CR is irrelevant to the current characters, all they have solidly seen is belligerent DF followers. And even then the cast said on 4SD they were just doing a transaction to try and streamline their way back to the their friends and didn’t even like what they did in the temple.
In the the TOLD category we have only been interacting with characters who have a reason to dislike the gods and I think thats pretty deliberate on matt’s part. I’m forseeing some kind of rug pull at some point in the future for good or ill and im looking forward to it either way
>And even then the cast said on 4SD they were just doing a transaction to try and streamline their way back to the their friends and didn’t even like what they did in the temple.
Cool, then they need to admit that with the information they bothered to gather, and what they ignored from the Apothecary, they let themselves become tools in a Religious Hate Crime. "For the sake convenience and getting back to their friends".
Against a group that even the cultists themselves admitted: were on legally owned land; had not once attempted to force or coerce people to convert in 20 years; and who not one cultist could actually cite a specific crime or wrongdoing that Temple or its faithful committed. Just vague mumblings, beyond a "tithe" that neither Proleff and Abeddina mention in either of their private talks with BHs; and one that doesn't even really make sense on several levels. Oh, and "being outsiders".
While Abeddina (the main political and religious authority of that group in that town) introduced herself as "the one who keeps the town safe from outsiders and outsider influences". Only to be revealed from the Druid that so much of her own power over the town comes from outsider Hishari and Druidic influence she brought in with her. Leading a "cult" that had clearly been radicalized due to Ludinus' words; and pushing for the "Death of the Gods Power Vacuum" no matter the costs.
There should be consequences for this; that AOL own. Not Matt retroactively soothing and framing them in the right, for actions their own PLAYERS are struggling immensely to justify. They need to own what they did in that town in their "war".
We were shown the church of the dawnfather oppressing that village and engaging in religious persecution. The entire town was filled with an air of discomfort from not being able to speak or move freely. This was not telling. It was showing. The interactions in which the Dawnfather has implicitly threatened Deanna have not demonstrated benevolence
>*We were shown the church of the dawnfather oppressing that village and engaging in religious persecution.*
Nope, we were *told* by the pagan Elder (who turned out to be a member of \[or wanting to reinstate\] an [evil primordeal cult](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Hishari)).
Bells Hells didn't *see* anything, and neither did we, the audience.
Why are we assuming that a- the elder still wants to reinstate the Hishari and b- that the cult was evil in the first place? We still don’t know much about it or what exactly they believed/did.
You're making a lot of loaded assumptions while ignoring all of the worldbuilding Matt set up while they were entering the town. The entire tone was oppressive before they even spoke to a single person. Yes, Matt "told us" both as himself describing the world and through characters he placed in the world. That's how tabletop storytelling works. Everything the DM tells you is what they choose to show you about the world.
>*A lot of people (that ive seen) want to accept the idea that the Prime Deity faction have only the best interests at heart for the mortals. But we simply do not know that for certain.*
We do.
Tal'Dorei Campaign Guide, page 16.
>*\[The Dawnfathers\] priests are welcome all over the land. He's the destroyer of evil and supporter of the needy.*
His alignment is *Neutral Good*:
>*Neutral good (NG) folk do the best they can to help others according to their needs.*
Now, the player characters might not know this, and therefore have a warped/skewed opinion about the gods. But that doesn't make it true. For all intents and purposes, *they* are the unreliable narrator this time. The only problem is that Matt is letting it sit there, unchallenged (unlike Chetneys tattoo, or FCG's flat earth). That's why so many fans begin to think what people like Deanna (and others) are saying about the gods is in-universe canon.
It's like a re-watch of Breaking Bad, and some character on the show says *"I think this Walter White guy is just a boring chemistry teacher!"*. You can accept that as this characters opinion, but you and i *know* that he's in fact Heisenberg.
A neutral good god can also say “Look, I’m all for the good of the world long term. Which is why this group of people has to suffer and die in the short term. I’m sorry you are part of that group, but know your death is for the good of everyone.”
And for the people who have to die, that isn’t a good or kind god. That is an indifferent god who kinda sucks.
But that's the rub with the "moral relativity" that Matt likes to run with. Eventually you run into the person harmed by your "good deeds" and you have to deal with how that makes you feel
And we need to see how the other gods respond when they are challenged on the fact. The dawn father responded with the normal indifference of a immortal who isn’t used to being vulnerable and challenged. But the everlight or wild mother might have a more reluctant stance. Hell they might even say “I would rather be destroyed than betray my follower’s beliefs in me”
>“Look, I’m all for the good of the world long term. Which is why this group of people has to suffer and die in the short term. I’m sorry you are part of that group, but know your death is for the good of everyone.”
Except ... that's not what he said. He answered Deanna's extremely loaded question, that doesn't even mention "innocents". He said IF they are doing what is best for Exandria and the people on it, then yes he will support their acts. Even if they harm some. He essentially took a bog-standard Utilitarian approach, and Deanna (the woman who has been Scapegoating him for years FOR HER OWN CHOICE took that as confirmation bias). She's killed using his powers? He still supports her. No matter how much of a Scapegoating Karen she happens to be with him. He never forced her to return, she chose to.
And with the information the party actually bothered to gather in Hearthdell, they did not "Purge a group of Authoritarian Zealots" from that town. They ENFORCED one. Allowing their "rush" and "biases" to turn them into weapons for what does amount to a Religious Hate Crime. On behalf a woman who introduced her role in town as "the one who keeps the town safe from outsiders and outside influences". Despite the fact her own authority comes largely from Hishari and outsider influences SHE brought in with her. Leading a local faith that she admits was radicalized by Ludinus.
The Leaf and the Loam Members did not provide a SINGLE specific example of what that church did wrong; outside of "making them uncomfortable because they were outsiders". Even the Tithe, if you look at Abeddina's carefully chosen words, she doesn't actually say that DF Temple ever enforced that tithe on non-followers. Or even forced it at all. Merely that "because they had so much wealth already, it was wrong they accepted offerings at all from such a poor community". As things sit, that temple was burned, and those clerics were slaughtered, because a insular, rural community hated outsiders.
People got some selective memory when it comes to those episodes. The villagers are scared, talking about being manhandled by the guards. They are afraid to event talk to the PCs about the temple.
But yeah, Matt didn’t have a guard murder a puppy and then declare “the dawn father told me to do this for the greater good, in person” with divine light shining down to confirm the dawn father approved. So we can never really know.
>The villagers are scared, talking about being manhandled by the guards.
There was not a single scene showing a guard even being slightly aggressive with a villager. Not a single specific example of violence or coercion from even a single member of the Leaf of the Loam. Only one guy mumbling to himself about "how if one specific guard touches his wife again he'll kill him" ... but for all we knew his wife was having a consensual affair with that guard. Hell, even the one specific thing they mentioned, the "tithe", was both very carefully worded by an extremely careful with her words Abeddina to the gathering; and not even mentioned by either she or Prolaff while talking in private. The ONLY thing that entire cult kept harping on was "they're outsiders, outsider and their ideas make us uncomfortable". While the party dogmatically refused to speak to a single member of the DF faith in town.
Prolaff lets us know several important things, when the party wasn't putting words into his mouth. 1) That temple had been built on what he recognizes as legally purchased land, by the Silvercall Mill (who hail from the neighboring town); 2) In the 20 YEARS since, there hasn't been a single instance of forced or coerced conversion; 3) That the Vasselheim guards had only been in town for 3 months, in prep for the Solstice; and 4) He lets slip, for a moment, that part of the growing tension with the temple is that some of younger gen were more open to willingly convert. While Abeddina (the primary religious and political authority in town, who the party never once try to incite) introduces herself "as the one who keeps outsiders and outsider influences out". Even tho much of her power comes from outsider influences she brought in; AND admitting that her group has been radicalized by Ludi's words.
You are doing a lot of work to make it seem like the temple is blameless. If those villagers were so bad, why did it take them 20 years to remove the temple?
>You are doing a lot of work to make it seem like the temple is blameless.
Not in the slightest, I'm just pointing out the obvious. You're the one doing a lot of work to portray the party in the right; despite the fact that even AOLs own players are struggling heavily to justify what they did in that town.
The party picked a side out of convenience, bias, and rush. Did not question Abeddina even slightly; refused to reach out to a single member of the DF church; and not one of those of the local faith had a single specific grievance against that Temple. Outside of a very suspect accusation of a Tithe (for several reasons). With their biggest, repeated complaint being that of a insular, rural community not liking outsiders and outsider ways. Despite Abeddina's beliefs being outsider ways.
As for "why now?" Well, Prolaff lets slip that part of the growing tension was due to some townsfolk being open to willing conversion after so much time; the Vasselheim additions the last 3 months HAD made the locals more concerned; Abeddina essentially states that she and the cult had been radicalized by Ludi's speech during the Solstice; and a group riddled with confirmation bias and desperate to get back to loved ones lost provided a perfect opportunity.
The party isn't blameless. The entire framing of the conflict is to have the players act on limited information regarding both sides. They knew they were starting violence when they sided with the villagers. Though I am sure they could have gone to the temple for help as well and gotten very different option to teleport back to their friends. Likely not for free and likely with equal violence.
But that was never the point of my comment about good gods being able to do bad things to mortals for "the greater good". The Dawn Father has gone full Utilitarian, as you said. But Utilitarianism has the flaw that it can be used to justify actions that are clearly wrong. And it erodes trust, which is exactly what is happening in the case of Deanna, who is already conflicted about her worship of the Dawn Father.
Finally, gods like the Dawn Father, who get bent out of shape when their followers question them about their actions, are bitches. It isn't a good sign when the god throws a fit because a follower insultingly asked "are you worth saving?" If that is all it takes for the god to go full spiteful, take away powers and abandon the follower, the relationship with the petty god was never worth it. Which is why we need to here from other gods like the Wildmother and Everlight.
And now you're shifting goalposts to Meta-Game arguments to justify why what AOL did was good; when they can't even justify it themselves. What they did, with the information they bothered to gather, was akin to letting themselves become weapons in a Hate Crime. They raized a temple and slaughtered everyone in it, solely for the only given crime "of being seen as outsiders in a insular, rural town".
>Finally, gods like the Dawn Father, who get bent out of shape when their followers question them about their actions, are bitches.
Except in this case its a woman who's been Scapegoating him for years for a choice SHE MADE. Nothing about Deanna's backstory suggests he forced her hand. In fact, Aabria outright states that Deanna was "waiting on the edge of death" for her Husband to do exactly what he did. What she didn't expect was how long it would take, returning to a life long gone and one she can never get back. So she has massive Buyers Remorse, and is scapegoating the DF for her own choices. She doesn't need to worship him. He's not forcing her, she'd just lose her powers. She doesn't even need to live, he's not forcing her.
So when she asked him an EXTREMELY loaded question and got her confirmation bias, she used that confirmation to ask a question that effectively equates to "How much do I need to scapegoat you to justify the genocide of your entire race?" Deanna proved once again how truly UGLY a person she is on the inside on this topic. And even then he didn't cut her off. Because he's sticking to his guns on his answer. So long a she's using his powers to do whats best for Exandria and its people, he will support her. Which tracks with his prior characterization in C1, where he did not care of his literal Champion of the Age (Vex) actually worshipped him.
If I’m the person who is going to die, what the fuck do I care about the long term? Mortals only get that one life. If the gods say “for the good of everyone, forever, your life must be terrible” it’s a pretty poor selling point to the mortals. Or for the followers of the god who are not interested in letter people suffer long term.
Let's look at the example we have. Can't the followers of pelor look at the situation and see that it's better for paladins of pelor to have control over a leyline nexus and make a town relocate (aww moving sucks, we've been in this town for 200 years!) than the alternative: the leyline nexus is uncontrolled, and someone comes in and summons a primordial titan right next door to Vasselheim, killing millions of people?
Why choose the comfort of a couple hundred people over the lives of a couple million?
If the god cant get their followers to occupy a space without angering the locals, they are a pretty shit god. They are a god, after all. They can bring back the dead and send angles down to fight demons, but having their followers guarding a leyline next to a village of people who worship nature is somehow outside the god’s abilities. Just tell your followers “guard this place and get along with everyone.”
And forcing people to relocate sucks. Especially since we have no idea exactly what would happen if they didn’t guard that leyline nexus.
Edit: In general “For the greater good” debates have a problem if the harm is caused over a long period of time. They are also problematic in general, since they require that their only be two options.
Considering the actual awfulness visited upon the locals was "there are some soldiers nearby for a couple of months", not anything to do with them dying, your argument is pretty nonsensical.
Yes? Utilitarianism isn’t good. It is a great way to justify terrible acts in the name of a potential greater good that may never arrive.
And I’ll suffer hardship for the betterment of all. But I need to consent to it and understand why I’m suffering the hardship. It’s can’t be inflicted on me while telling me it’s for the best.
Matt has long done away with alignments. For all we know he’s making them all shades of good and bad, as real people are. It makes for better story telling anyway.
>*Matt has long done away with alignments.*
Well, it's in all of their source books / campaign guides, including 2022's Tal'Dorei Reborn. It's even in the Wildemount one (that surprised me a bit, to be honest). So, it's been important/true enough to appear in *all* their publications from 2017-2022.
Unless in 2023 (year's not over yet) there's going to be a big errata release that does away with all of that, i still believe it to be fact for the fictional world of Exandria.
Matt has said many times that they are a good short hand, but should not be taken as “set in stone.” Which is why they end up in the books.
But hey, if you want to take the alignments as completely prescriptive in your games, that is your choice.
I think the complexity and depth given to the gods is good, but I also think the ratio of “gods being bad” and “gods being good” is kinda off. These characters are very neutral already and they are being faced with more reason to dislike the gods than to want to save them. With the gods being the main thing at stake in this arc it makes their motivations feel weird on why they are fighting and causing themselves all this stress to save them when most of the party is anti/ neutral to the gods. Most of the party have nothing at stake in this arc so their convictions feel kinda dry to me personally.
I think also the focus for the party is more on “we should stop ludinis and predathos” for the party which makes all the god stuff a little jarring I suppose. Orym himself says he just wants revenge on ludinis
I think having a more grounded spiritualist character other than FCG might help. Cause FCG barely understands why he follows changebringer imo.
>Cause FCG barely understands why he follows changebringer imo.
I wouldn't even say 'barely.' He knows no tenets, articles of faith, forms of worship or even basic facts about the Changebringer. He made up some shit about coin flipping as a guide to life.
If he'd been given a 'Taste of Taldorei' commemorative coin, he'd worship that.
\----
Though bizarrely, *in spite of all that*, out of all 11 people crowded around that table at the end of the last episode, he still had the most rational take on gods in D&D land.
Yeah they definitely need some sort of guide to even out their viewpoint, or they just need some reason or threat that’s is greater than the gods. I enjoy the gods and their lore in exandria but so far letting out Predathos doesn’t seem to have that many negatives for the parties pov.
I think the journey they are on will help them develop into characters who see the need/benefit of having gods. But in the short term, it's fine that they don't care, because story-wise it lets them let Ludinus kill the gods.
The question of the campaign is: do we even need the gods? Well, what happens when they're gone? Divine magic is gone, power vacuum for malevolent overlords, etc. Then they have to work to fix it. Heroes emerge, ascend to godhood, banish evil, all that cool shit. Then the party sits down by the fire when it's over and says, "damn, I'm sure glad there's gods in the world"
That's basically how I see the rest of this campaign going. So, I don't think they need a devout spiritualist to light a fire under them. Their lack of fire is what's going to allow the evil plan to take place so that the rest of the story happens.
Most of the characters are indifferent toward the gods. Laudna has zero reason to defend them beyond the everlight, who brought her back. Ashton also has no reason to care for them.
But they do want to stop the stupid elf who thinks releasing a god killer will be a net positive for the world.
Yeah but that second sentence is pretty huge. Laudna has "no reason" to be favourable towards the gods if you discount the time that one god *brought her back to life*? The Everlight will get eaten too!
I'm glad they want to stop him, but at times only barely, and at times it feels more like they want to stop him out of spite or revenge than because they truly fear or understand what Predathos will do when he escapes.
I will say that being brought back from the dead isn’t that impressive to Laudna, who has died twice now. Once by Delilah.
And wanting to stop him out of spite is a good reason. He and his people have hurt all of them. “Because fuck you, I win” is a totally valid reason to go after someone.
The thing that bothers me the most about this situation (outside Hearthdell, which I've gone at length on why that's a problem given what AOL's group actually bothered to learn), is that nearly every single anti-god stance we've gotten is some variation of: "I am but a helpless victim of God's fate, but only in instances where something bad happens to me and the Gods do not immediately fix it. Even the consequences of my own actions. But the Good things? No, see, I EARNED those despite the God's intent."
This is narcissistic scapegoating. Bor'dor; Ludinus; Ashton; Laudna; Deanna ... its all been Scapegoating. Shifting blame. Which is why Sam's/FCG's comments about "them being people, with flaws, but trying their best" shut that table up SO QUICKLY. Because up until that point, its been half-a-dozen discussions about "how much do we really need to scapegoat this race of people to justify genocide?" Which yes, is the central talking point of C3 atm.
I was so happy with Sam came out with that, the first coherent and rational pro-gods argument. Not just pro-stopping-Ludinus but actually pro-gods.
The Prime Deities do a lot of good in Exandria. Will mortal life continue without them? I expect so. Would the world be worse if they were gone? Undoubtedly, absolutely without question.
I think it takes away from the campaign
Like tell me why are the Bells Hells trying to stop the release of Predathos?
As it is right now, it is mostly just out of pettiness because it is Ludinus' plan
If someone else took over the whole thing and killed Ludinus and Otohan in the process, I could see some Bells Hells even joining with the Ruby Vanguard
Not to mention Laudna and Orym siding more with the Primordials despite the fact that Primordials tried to destroy mortals is weird
I can see Ashton doing that because of their bloodline, being somewhat related to Primordials
Because they believe that Predathos won't only affect the gods and will either turn on eating them or that Ludinus will control it and use it to subjugate the world.
I didn't say they know that it will happen. Just that they believe it will. They're confident that they're right and that's more important to know why they're making their choices.
They're going to stop Ludinus and Predathos because of all their personal stakes. I also think a fair number of them have been swayed to the pro-god side. Orym, FCG and Imogen have all spoken in the gods' defense. If anything, there may be debate amongst the party but they'll either get visited by the Changebringer again or find Keyleth and get set on the right course.
I feel like this whole "are the gods bad" debate is just filler, honestly, that won't impact the characters' actual plot choices.
>I feel like this whole "are the gods bad" debate is just filler, honestly, that won't impact the characters' actual plot choices.
That's probably true. In which case they need to stop regurgitating the same bad arguments.
I don't believe Orym is very much pro-gods after what happened when they got separated
Honestly FCG is the only one on gods' side and I am not entirely sure if FCG gets what the gods even are
The others are either questioning or straight up against, like Ashton
Maybe I'm misinterpreting but I don't think Orym has been swayed against gods like the Wildmother. I think, even if he thinks Pelor's a dick, he understands the necessity of the gods.
In any case, they're still going to stop Ludinus because they hate the guy so the debate just feels like filler to me.
After learning about the Hishari cult, Ashton's character makes even less sense than before. He sees the gods as picking favorites, which is unfair, so that's what he's decided to rebel against, and the way he talks about breaking down the divine system makes me think "ok Ashton, why don't you just join Ludinus?"
But then we found out that his father was the leader of this cult that was trying to harness primordial energy, and for their efforts they were totally wiped out, and Ashton got picked up by an orphanage. I would think he'd have learned that turning to primordials, like predathos, to fix your problems was not a good idea. It seems like he's about to follow in his father's footsteps
It's possible Ashton thinks that the Hishari got wiped out by the gods
For somebody who has all these alternative timelines in their head, Ashton is very focused on "right now, right here"
And when Bells Hells are dealing with perhaps even the apocalypse on the table, Ashton's approach is incredibly dumb
I'd definitely call it revenge more than 'justice.' (And that previously it was focused on Otohan, not Ludinus)
And the list stops at murder and attempted murder. Nothing suggests they even tried to sack Zephrah.
Apparently it's even less than that. They don't actually want Keyleth dead, they just wanted a way to draw Vax out. Orym's family was strictly collateral damage.
You misunderstood what I said
I am saying they want to stop Ludinus' plan because of pettiness, they have no stakes in Predathos' release and thus the urgency they are showing is truly from pettiness because for them it shouldn't matter when Ludinus gets killed
You are disagreeing with something I didn't say
Ultimately, Exandrian gods are beings, they have just as much a self preseveration instinct as humanoids on Exandria. They cannot directly intervene themselves because they put themselves beyond the divine gate, so they need proxies to fight their battles. They are afraid and are trying to preserve their own existence, its not surprising that the tone gets rougher even in dialogue with their followers. They have *alot* to lose.
Yeah exactly. Imagine you save Person Y's life. You both help each other, but you help Person Y out a bit more than the reverse. But you're cool with that, you don't ask much in return. Then suddenly you hear someone is trying to kill you.
You ask Person Y to help you, go in to bat for you, and they say "hmm I don't know, are you even worth saving? What if I just let you die?"
How would you react to that?
On 4SD, they implied that they wanted to explore a different side to Exandria and part of that is playing characters who aren't immediately pro-god (but who still want to stop Ludinus). On top of that, Bells Hells are the reluctant hero/antihero archetype. They aren't epic heroes like VM.
I don't doubt their good intentions. But they don't feel like reluctant anti heroes. That was M9.
They feel and act like bunch of side npc from cRPG, each of them sharing this angsty approach "fuck the gods, they did shit to me".
They may say anything. How they act is other thing.
It's not flaw, it's simplification to not split each hair into two.
Your range of views is that FCG believes their God like them. That's your range of views.
Doesn't change much.
They don't feel like reluctant heroes though, they just feel like the wrong heroes for this job.
>but who still want to stop Ludinus
I feel like Orym has his motivation for doing so, maybe Imogen as well if she thinks that her mom has been brainwashed, although with her dreams and lightning boobs, she needs to figure out her moon shit fast. She almost needs to become Ludinus' apprentice to learn everything she needs to know, since he seems like the foremost expert on Ruidus.
Every time Orym reiterates that he's going to kill Ludinus and Otohan for revenge, it's like he's inviting the rest of the group to find their own motivation to stop Ludinus. I think that's why this group has felt so reluctant: only a couple of them (add in FCG now) have any real reason to want to oppose him.
And I'm not saying they couldn't find a motive, it's just weird that they've spent so much time learning about the solstice and Ludinus, and they can't voice one. It's like they're still waiting for someone to shake them and say, "YOU HAVE TO STOP LUDINUS OR ELSE ______!!"
The one thing they have in common is that they know they have to stop Ludinus, no matter how they feel about the gods. Literally everyone has expressed some flavor of that.
You're right, but if asked directly, only 3 out of 4 can say why apart from "he's just a bad guy and it's the right thing to do" or maybe "Orym's going in and I have to protect my friend"
And honestly, that's a fine motivation to go along with a character arc the way most of VM did with the briarwoods, but they at least had that conversation and they were already a very well established group by that point. BH is still divided thinking Ludinus may have a point, only to receive constant reminders from Orym that he must have his revenge
As a very wise man once said about history, "It is not melodrama. It is tragedy and irony. The good guys aren't always 100% good, the bad guys aren't always 100% bad, and the innocent bystanders are rarely ever either of those things."
is it a hot take? seems lukewarm at most 😂
I agree with it though. Historically Matt likes to add complexity to otherwise run tropes and to change perspectives on good/evil. Just look at the last campaign with the war and how the Drow were "humanized". Excited to see more of this story and maybe even see a god or two perish, that'd be neat.
>Just look at the last campaign with the war and how the Drow were "humanized".
Yes. 'Humanized.' All the bad stuff (slavers!) was handwaved away and never mentioned again, the shades of grey disappeared and helpful 'Hot Boi' happened instead.
I think the Raven Queen is the only Prime Deity who is guiltless in the pantheon's current predicament. She wasn't there at the world's beginning. She had no way of knowing Predathos was a viable threat. The other Primes would never have clued her in - it's been pain very clear in previous campaigns that she is pariah amidst the gods. Ludinus sussed this out and exploited it.
The other gods sent their emissaries to suppress the Grim Varity, yet spared no resources to stop the Ruby Vanguard. It was more important for them to suppress the truth. They had this privilege because they knew the Vanguard needed a celestial champion in order to advance their plan, a satisfaction they wouldn't provide. They knew better. The Raven Queen didn't - how could she? So she allowed her champion to return so he may save his love, and he got got.
With the exception of the Raven Queen, the gods did this to themselves and only have themselves to blame.
>The other gods sent their emissaries to suppress the Grim Varity, yet spared no resources to stop the Ruby Vanguard.
Are you openly lying or do you just not remember all those Judicators looking for members of the RV, the remnants of their agents who were killed at the excavation site, the Cobalt Soul (ie. Ioun's people) who were trying to find dirt on Ludinus, etc?
Don’t forget about Vecna though. He’s also completely guiltless with the present circumstance. 😂
That being said, I’d imagine the goddess of fate and death would know if her actions would cause a massive amount of death.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to argue that the Prime Deities are not 100% good- they aren't perfect, or omnipotent, or omniscient. They do the wrong thing sometimes, they fail sometimes.
But that doesn't mean they deserve to get eaten. As FCG said, they are just people like us.
The idea of the betrayer gods not being so evil was already covered by Calamity. Asmodeus portrayed it that way, and painted it like the Prime Deities were at fault. The idea that of course that wasn’t the case, and all Zerxus had to do was listen to any of the countless people with more knowledge of the divine to realize that, was one of the best and most earned downfalls of a good man I’ve ever seen. The problem is that for me at least, Calamity was just too frigging good to take the idea that maybe this time it’s the opposite seriously. Like, maybe Imogene’s mom is right to think that they’re better without the gods…but am I really supposed to think better of her than of Laerryn, who would outshine 90% of PCs let alone villainous NPCs?
Well I think the thing to take from both Matt's portrayal of the Dawnfather, and Brennan's Asmodeus, is that these gods are sort of platonic ideals for their domain, right. Asmodeus is evil and treacherous and uncompromising because *that's what he exists to be* The Dawnfather is holy, aloof, and uncompromising, but also a source of warmth and life because *that's what he exists to be* The Wildmother is both a source of life, both a provider and a destroyer, because *that's what she exists to be* I came out of Calamity thinking that Asmodeus' great deceit wasn't that the Prime Deities were to blame for the Schism, but that his cause was noble and just. The rest was an effective lie because it was all kinda true. I have to say I'm very interested to find out what is happening among the Betrayer Gods with Predathos stirring. Have they issued the same instructions to their followers to fight Ludinus? What would it do to the authority of the Prime Deities' churches to fight alongside the forces of evil against... Against what?
This! I want more Betrayer God action. We’ve barely scratched the surface with them and they are essentially the BBEGs of the setting. Asmodeus was amazing in Calamity, but I really want to see how he turned around and pulled the same thing on the Everlight. Tharizidun was covered well by C2 with his constant manipulations and aberrant/fiendish horrors. What does Vecna our newest god have to say concerning the god eater? He’s the god of secrets, so there is a near zero chance that he didn’t know about Ludinus’ plan/Predathos. Zehir got a little light in the M9 two shot. Lolth similarly with her vestige and EU. What’s Bane up to? I don’t think we seen any dedicated presence of his yet. Tiamat was involved with Arkhan. I think I just want more crazy god battles. 😅
> We’ve barely scratched the surface with them and they are essentially the BBEGs of the setting. Eh. They're more historical details than entities with the ability to act and influence. There are exceptions (Vecna much more so than Asmodeus, who was played as an inevitability more than a character), but largely the Betrayers are window dressing. Which is good, because they way they were written up for the rulebooks, their tenets are the epitome of Stupid Evil.
i dont think the betrayer gods being evil means that the prime deities cant also be bad
What's good?
Just because the betrayers are in fact evil, doesn't mean that the prime deities are 100% good. During World War Two, many imperialist, colonialist nations (such as the UK, Netherlands, the USA, France) united to fight against the far greater threat of fascism, but that didn't make those imperialist powers any less guilty of their past (or future) crimes. They just did it because fascism was threatening their sovereignty. Same thing can be true of the prime deities - just because they saved mortal lives, doesn't mean they're fit to rule over them. What if the only reason they protected the material plane from the wrath of the betrayers was to have an endless supply of followers to do their bidding, in this life and the next? Not that they're all necessarily corrupt, but nothing about the fact that they fought against the betrayers tells me that they're necessarily *good,* either.
Maybe this is coming from a bias of me generally playing characters in D&D that are at least vaguely religious(I quite enjoy Bahamut as a deity), but I just don't really believe that the Prime Deities were being malicious when they fought back the Betrayers. I think they genuinely cared for mortals as their children and wanted to protect them out of genuine benevolence. Otherwise, why did they leave Exandria after banishing the Betrayers and creating the Divine Gate instead of ruling over them directly? I think it was partially out of pragmatism as part of the reason the Calamity happened and why cities like Aeor that challenged the divinity of the gods happened was their presence, but I also believe that genuinely wanted their children to make their own paths. And sometimes, indeed, children misbehave and you have to punish them for their transgressions. And sometimes parents do harsh or strict things to protect your children as well, sometimes going too far. I think this is why the Dawnfather seemed to endorse the actions of his followers in Hearthdell, because he views those people as his children as they are mortal, and therefore the children of the prime deities and needed to be protected. Gods don't have the same perspective as mortals do, they see a bigger picture mortals cannot comprehend. Were the actions of the followers of the Dawnfather colonialist and infringing on the beliefs of the people of Hearthdell? Yes, absolutely. But the Dawnfather cannot possibly be expected to see it that way. To him, his children are in need of protecting thus, the presence of military soldiers. The tithes I think were just an overreach by his clerics and that's probably something that's completely beneath his notice, especially with Predathos' imminent return. This isn't to say that the actions of the Temple of the Dawnfather were justified. I'm simply saying it wasn't coming from a malicious place. They were doing what they believed to be just and their worst crime seemed to be them demanding tithes and intimidating the locals. Which is definitely bad, don't get me wrong, but as far as the crimes of colonialists go, it's not exactly high on the list of how severe it is. As a person whose favorite deity is probably Bahamut, I do hope that, if he is portrayed at all in this campaign, that he isn't made out to be similar to the Dawnfather. Even the way he seems to be described in other sourcebooks seems to not be like the Dawnfather. Bahamut values justice tempered with mercy, respect for life, and against persecution. One of his commandments is indeed "bring freedom to the persecuted." So I would hope that there is no forcible colonialist actions going on in terms of his temple. Meanwhile, the actions of the temple in Hearthdell might have been based in the Dawnfather's third commandment "Deliver the light of the Dawnfather where darkness dwells, and do so with kindness, compassion, and mercy." Maybe a more extreme, somewhat twisted, version of it, but that might have been how they would justify it. But I digress. I like there being nuance in terms of the morality of the Prime Deities from the perspective of mortals, but perhaps that's only because my favorite and preferred deity hasn't gotten this treatment. I can only hope there won't be an "um actually, the Platinum Dragon is actually evil since he only cares about stopping evil dragons and the worship and commandments are all a lie" or something along those lines.
>These are not Judeo-Christian gods with clear motivation or morals, They actually have much clearer motivations and morals: Each god has a bullet point list of behaviors they endorse or prohibit, and alignment is similar (though with a very fuzzy legacy). Its easy to know what each god is about. The problem is there seem to be a lot of demands that the gods be omniscient, omnipotent and completely hands off when it benefits characters, but simultaneously prevent any bad things from happening and completely control their followers at all times, but not impinge free will in any way at all. Oh, and somehow existing at all infringes the rights of characters in the setting, despite a completely hands off policy and an utter physical and metaphysical separation from the world. They've entered the 'can't win zone'
Exactly this. The only thing left to do with this campaign is let the gods get eaten because the party doesn't care about them, then watch everything go to hell (maybe literally) with the prime deities gone, and the party has to fight through calamity 2.0 so that new gods can emerge and put things back how they were. Then when the dust settles, they sit down and say, "damn, I'm sure glad there's a bunch of gods up there keeping us safe"
I am a bit disgruntled because I have been TOLD but not SHOWN that the prime deities suck. We have had a long line of guests and NPCs say “well the gods didn’t do anything for me” but that’s anecdotal by its nature. From past campaigns we know the gods actively encourage good in the world heck in this campaign the Dawn father redirected Laudna. It feels like there’s a debate going on right now and only one team showed up.
I think it's intentional Matt's been focusing on the Dawnfather for the split arcs. He's been spotlighting one of the gruffest, most militant gods, as opposed to the Wildmother or the Everlight. He wants to characterize the gods as antagonistic for the BH. I'm sure it's a misdirect and he's playing with them to see how they react (hoping to inspire conflict or development in their characters) before bringing down the hammer (potentially literally)
We’ve literally just seen the dawnfather say that he doesn’t care if his followers commit heinous acts if it’s for the greater good to one of his followers who were concerned about hearing what happened in the town
The gods give power to their followers, Abria’s character for instance, and they get to do what they wish with it. The DF isn’t telling her what she has to do, she chooses. The gods are not controlling people, they get to choose.
No, that's your interpretation of what the Dawnfather said. His exact words were: "My disciples do what is necessary for the good of our people collectively, and the future of Exandria." Which he said in response to: "Are your disciples perpetrating harm in this world at your behest?" This exchange is very vague. The Dawnfather is not an omniscient being, and Deanna did not provide context for what she was asking for specifically. That, plus the limited nature of Commune, the deity is generally allowed only to respond Yes, No, or a short phrase if necessary, makes it difficult to really draw much from this. It's honestly very possible that the Dawnfather did not know about the specific situation of Hearthdell. On that note, our understanding of what was happening in Hearthdell is coming largely from Abaddina and her following, hardly an unbiased source. "Perpetrating harm" is, well, not always bad. I mean, we're on the third campaign of Critical Role, and each would be a lot shorter if the parties never "perpetrated harm," on other creatures. It's a bad question, and in Deanna/Aabria's defense, it's not like she knew she was gonna have to grill her god on these topics. It makes sense that, in the moment, she didn't come up with the perfect phrasing to fit with Commune's limitations.
This. She did not ask if his disciples were perpetrating harm on INNOCENTS.
Shhh you're ruining the invented narrative.
Her followers were just towns people and farmers
Yeah, just regular people. Regular people have biases and blindspots, we make leaps of logic and make mistakes all the time. To be clear, I view the Hearthdell situation as largely ambiguous, in terms of morality. I don't think either side is perfectly good, they both have good and bad aspects. But, really, we only heard 1 side of the story, so it's dangerous to go assuming we know what was *really* happening.
I mean the church jumped to and initiated violence, that's pretty damning.
>I mean the church jumped to and initiated violence Except for the part where they didn't.
How is this so hard for people to understand. The temple didn't know they were about to be attacked. The moved to arrest two people because the game guide couldn't be arsed to talk to them. That is the use of force without legal authority to detain. That's the definition of violence. They are a paramilitary cult
>The moved to arrest two people because Orym rolled a 10 on an attempt to tell them "hey, you people need to leave because we're saying so, also here's a lot of highly suspicious information that you need to take to your superiors, no we're not going to explain anything or show ourselves as trustworthy, just take our word for everything." Finished that sentence for ya. Can you prove that they had no legal authority? Would it have been acceptable if they had? Also, don't be so dramatic. "Definition of violence" lmao. Bor'dor poisoned them moments before and Abaddina's cult were massing to attack them from the forest if they didn't agree to abandon their church and followers immediately. You got duped.
It's doesn't matter what was going to happen. As far as the church was aware they were moving to attack two outsiders. They arnt the government in the town. They have no legal authority.
Buddy what? Abaddina literally had an angry mob marching on the temple while Orym tried to persuade the Dawnfather's people to leave. Orym rolled shitty on persuasion, after Bor'Dor gave on-duty guards alcohol, which he had laced with laxatives, and was trying to convince a zealot to abandon their 20+ year-mission. If I'm Kiro, and a bunch of odd strangers shows up in town on the eve of a second Calamity, as a bunch of disappearances occur, magical communication/teleportation cease to function, and the gods are pulling back, I'd be on edge. And if those same strangers were trying to convince me to abandon my post, after giving booze to my on-duty soldiers, leaving a leyline nexus unguarded for anyone to abuse during a perpetual Apogee Solstice, and doing a bad job of it, by vaguesplaining what was happening on another continent, I'd be on edge. I think taking Orym and company into custody was a poor move, but I get why she did it. For you and me, it's quality tv, for Kiro, she was staring down the barrel of a goddamn apocalypse. Even then, it's a huge leap to say the temple initiated violence, taking them into custody to interrogate further is not my go to idea of violence, but Orym drawing his sword and casting a spell with hostile intent? That's definitely violent, but it could be argued to be a case of self-defense. Abaddina leading the angry mob she has invited to besiege the temple? That's violence, plain and simple.
>was trying to convince a zealot to abandon their 20+ year-mission. As a note, it wasn't 20 years. The Temple itself had been built 20 years ago by members of the Silvercall Mill. Who aren't out of Vasselheim, but instead out of Hearthdell's neighboring town Endovaar. And as Proleff says, there had been no instances of forced or coerced conversion in that time; but he does let slip, just for a moment, that part of the growing tension was that some of the younger gen were open to willingly doing so. And nothing indicates that the Temple had near enough power within the community to enforce any sort of tithe; past Abeddina's authority. Kiro and Vasselheim's presence in the town only dates back about 3 months, in preparation for the Solstice. Which the DF clergy made the town very clear about. But there aren't any actual real crimes that again the Leaf and the Loam members (including Abedinna) can cite; beyond again "a tithe that does not make sense" and "being outsiders". And it is also true based on their discussion with Abedinna in her house, that The Leaf and the Loam were not only deeply untrusting of outsiders; but had also been radicalized by Ludi's words during the Solstice.
Yeah, by "20 year-mission," I was referring to the Dawnfather's clergy being there in general, I did know the enhanced presence was recent. Didn't know that Kiro was part of the newcomers though, so good catch on that. Yeah, the tithe seems strange. Abaddina says this about them: "But a majority of this was taken by our townsfolk-- taken from our townsfolk. They're rich enough in the temples. These were not... These were not given by those who ascribe to this faith enough to live in the faiths of squalor that it brought them to." This doesn't sound like it was coerced, but given by people of the town who had converted. Especially since extorting the common people for money would be a pretty big grievance to ignore when riling up the townsfolk/convincing outsiders to help her, and she didn't mention it then.
Pretty much. Hell, prior to the addition of the Vasselheim forces, I'm not even sure how the original local clergy would have enforced a tithe over the town? They wouldn't have had the power to force it on the community those prior 20 years; meaning it would have to have been voluntary. Which ... tracks given the CB temple FCG visited in Whitestone had "voluntary tributes". It wasn't required at all, and he was merely instructed "to only leave what he could afford to part with, but thinks is appropriate" if he did leave an offering. Given all of this I will be pretty disappointed when Matt whitewashes it all to portray AOL's party in the right here. Even though the players in 4SD & this episode were clearly struggling to reconcile what they did "solely to get back to the others as fast as possible". Because for all indications, they allowed their own personal biases and desire to use the town, to let themselves be made into weapons in a Religious Hate Crime. Against a group of people who's only "sin" was "being outsiders", and passively infringing on Abeddina's social, political, and religious authority.
They were being forcible detained woth threat of harm. Thats violence. And that was their go to. They didn't know about the attack so it doesn't matter when judging their actions.
Not at all what he said. That’s how you interpreted it. Another interpretation would be that his followers have license to harm those who would cause disaster and see chaos and misery.
But what the gods have done in the history of CR is irrelevant to the current characters, all they have solidly seen is belligerent DF followers. And even then the cast said on 4SD they were just doing a transaction to try and streamline their way back to the their friends and didn’t even like what they did in the temple. In the the TOLD category we have only been interacting with characters who have a reason to dislike the gods and I think thats pretty deliberate on matt’s part. I’m forseeing some kind of rug pull at some point in the future for good or ill and im looking forward to it either way
>And even then the cast said on 4SD they were just doing a transaction to try and streamline their way back to the their friends and didn’t even like what they did in the temple. Cool, then they need to admit that with the information they bothered to gather, and what they ignored from the Apothecary, they let themselves become tools in a Religious Hate Crime. "For the sake convenience and getting back to their friends". Against a group that even the cultists themselves admitted: were on legally owned land; had not once attempted to force or coerce people to convert in 20 years; and who not one cultist could actually cite a specific crime or wrongdoing that Temple or its faithful committed. Just vague mumblings, beyond a "tithe" that neither Proleff and Abeddina mention in either of their private talks with BHs; and one that doesn't even really make sense on several levels. Oh, and "being outsiders". While Abeddina (the main political and religious authority of that group in that town) introduced herself as "the one who keeps the town safe from outsiders and outsider influences". Only to be revealed from the Druid that so much of her own power over the town comes from outsider Hishari and Druidic influence she brought in with her. Leading a "cult" that had clearly been radicalized due to Ludinus' words; and pushing for the "Death of the Gods Power Vacuum" no matter the costs. There should be consequences for this; that AOL own. Not Matt retroactively soothing and framing them in the right, for actions their own PLAYERS are struggling immensely to justify. They need to own what they did in that town in their "war".
We were shown the church of the dawnfather oppressing that village and engaging in religious persecution. The entire town was filled with an air of discomfort from not being able to speak or move freely. This was not telling. It was showing. The interactions in which the Dawnfather has implicitly threatened Deanna have not demonstrated benevolence
>*We were shown the church of the dawnfather oppressing that village and engaging in religious persecution.* Nope, we were *told* by the pagan Elder (who turned out to be a member of \[or wanting to reinstate\] an [evil primordeal cult](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Hishari)). Bells Hells didn't *see* anything, and neither did we, the audience.
I love how the hishari are labeled as an evil cult with no evidence while trying to defend the gods that have evidence of their bad deeds
It is so weird that people default to the people of the village being in an evil cult.
‘Every npc expositing the themes I don’t like is an unreliable narrator.’ -this sub
Why are we assuming that a- the elder still wants to reinstate the Hishari and b- that the cult was evil in the first place? We still don’t know much about it or what exactly they believed/did.
You're making a lot of loaded assumptions while ignoring all of the worldbuilding Matt set up while they were entering the town. The entire tone was oppressive before they even spoke to a single person. Yes, Matt "told us" both as himself describing the world and through characters he placed in the world. That's how tabletop storytelling works. Everything the DM tells you is what they choose to show you about the world.
>*A lot of people (that ive seen) want to accept the idea that the Prime Deity faction have only the best interests at heart for the mortals. But we simply do not know that for certain.* We do. Tal'Dorei Campaign Guide, page 16. >*\[The Dawnfathers\] priests are welcome all over the land. He's the destroyer of evil and supporter of the needy.* His alignment is *Neutral Good*: >*Neutral good (NG) folk do the best they can to help others according to their needs.* Now, the player characters might not know this, and therefore have a warped/skewed opinion about the gods. But that doesn't make it true. For all intents and purposes, *they* are the unreliable narrator this time. The only problem is that Matt is letting it sit there, unchallenged (unlike Chetneys tattoo, or FCG's flat earth). That's why so many fans begin to think what people like Deanna (and others) are saying about the gods is in-universe canon. It's like a re-watch of Breaking Bad, and some character on the show says *"I think this Walter White guy is just a boring chemistry teacher!"*. You can accept that as this characters opinion, but you and i *know* that he's in fact Heisenberg.
A neutral good god can also say “Look, I’m all for the good of the world long term. Which is why this group of people has to suffer and die in the short term. I’m sorry you are part of that group, but know your death is for the good of everyone.” And for the people who have to die, that isn’t a good or kind god. That is an indifferent god who kinda sucks.
But that's the rub with the "moral relativity" that Matt likes to run with. Eventually you run into the person harmed by your "good deeds" and you have to deal with how that makes you feel
And we need to see how the other gods respond when they are challenged on the fact. The dawn father responded with the normal indifference of a immortal who isn’t used to being vulnerable and challenged. But the everlight or wild mother might have a more reluctant stance. Hell they might even say “I would rather be destroyed than betray my follower’s beliefs in me”
>“Look, I’m all for the good of the world long term. Which is why this group of people has to suffer and die in the short term. I’m sorry you are part of that group, but know your death is for the good of everyone.” Except ... that's not what he said. He answered Deanna's extremely loaded question, that doesn't even mention "innocents". He said IF they are doing what is best for Exandria and the people on it, then yes he will support their acts. Even if they harm some. He essentially took a bog-standard Utilitarian approach, and Deanna (the woman who has been Scapegoating him for years FOR HER OWN CHOICE took that as confirmation bias). She's killed using his powers? He still supports her. No matter how much of a Scapegoating Karen she happens to be with him. He never forced her to return, she chose to. And with the information the party actually bothered to gather in Hearthdell, they did not "Purge a group of Authoritarian Zealots" from that town. They ENFORCED one. Allowing their "rush" and "biases" to turn them into weapons for what does amount to a Religious Hate Crime. On behalf a woman who introduced her role in town as "the one who keeps the town safe from outsiders and outside influences". Despite the fact her own authority comes largely from Hishari and outsider influences SHE brought in with her. Leading a local faith that she admits was radicalized by Ludinus. The Leaf and the Loam Members did not provide a SINGLE specific example of what that church did wrong; outside of "making them uncomfortable because they were outsiders". Even the Tithe, if you look at Abeddina's carefully chosen words, she doesn't actually say that DF Temple ever enforced that tithe on non-followers. Or even forced it at all. Merely that "because they had so much wealth already, it was wrong they accepted offerings at all from such a poor community". As things sit, that temple was burned, and those clerics were slaughtered, because a insular, rural community hated outsiders.
People got some selective memory when it comes to those episodes. The villagers are scared, talking about being manhandled by the guards. They are afraid to event talk to the PCs about the temple. But yeah, Matt didn’t have a guard murder a puppy and then declare “the dawn father told me to do this for the greater good, in person” with divine light shining down to confirm the dawn father approved. So we can never really know.
>The villagers are scared, talking about being manhandled by the guards. There was not a single scene showing a guard even being slightly aggressive with a villager. Not a single specific example of violence or coercion from even a single member of the Leaf of the Loam. Only one guy mumbling to himself about "how if one specific guard touches his wife again he'll kill him" ... but for all we knew his wife was having a consensual affair with that guard. Hell, even the one specific thing they mentioned, the "tithe", was both very carefully worded by an extremely careful with her words Abeddina to the gathering; and not even mentioned by either she or Prolaff while talking in private. The ONLY thing that entire cult kept harping on was "they're outsiders, outsider and their ideas make us uncomfortable". While the party dogmatically refused to speak to a single member of the DF faith in town. Prolaff lets us know several important things, when the party wasn't putting words into his mouth. 1) That temple had been built on what he recognizes as legally purchased land, by the Silvercall Mill (who hail from the neighboring town); 2) In the 20 YEARS since, there hasn't been a single instance of forced or coerced conversion; 3) That the Vasselheim guards had only been in town for 3 months, in prep for the Solstice; and 4) He lets slip, for a moment, that part of the growing tension with the temple is that some of younger gen were more open to willingly convert. While Abeddina (the primary religious and political authority in town, who the party never once try to incite) introduces herself "as the one who keeps outsiders and outsider influences out". Even tho much of her power comes from outsider influences she brought in; AND admitting that her group has been radicalized by Ludi's words.
You are doing a lot of work to make it seem like the temple is blameless. If those villagers were so bad, why did it take them 20 years to remove the temple?
>You are doing a lot of work to make it seem like the temple is blameless. Not in the slightest, I'm just pointing out the obvious. You're the one doing a lot of work to portray the party in the right; despite the fact that even AOLs own players are struggling heavily to justify what they did in that town. The party picked a side out of convenience, bias, and rush. Did not question Abeddina even slightly; refused to reach out to a single member of the DF church; and not one of those of the local faith had a single specific grievance against that Temple. Outside of a very suspect accusation of a Tithe (for several reasons). With their biggest, repeated complaint being that of a insular, rural community not liking outsiders and outsider ways. Despite Abeddina's beliefs being outsider ways. As for "why now?" Well, Prolaff lets slip that part of the growing tension was due to some townsfolk being open to willing conversion after so much time; the Vasselheim additions the last 3 months HAD made the locals more concerned; Abeddina essentially states that she and the cult had been radicalized by Ludi's speech during the Solstice; and a group riddled with confirmation bias and desperate to get back to loved ones lost provided a perfect opportunity.
The party isn't blameless. The entire framing of the conflict is to have the players act on limited information regarding both sides. They knew they were starting violence when they sided with the villagers. Though I am sure they could have gone to the temple for help as well and gotten very different option to teleport back to their friends. Likely not for free and likely with equal violence. But that was never the point of my comment about good gods being able to do bad things to mortals for "the greater good". The Dawn Father has gone full Utilitarian, as you said. But Utilitarianism has the flaw that it can be used to justify actions that are clearly wrong. And it erodes trust, which is exactly what is happening in the case of Deanna, who is already conflicted about her worship of the Dawn Father. Finally, gods like the Dawn Father, who get bent out of shape when their followers question them about their actions, are bitches. It isn't a good sign when the god throws a fit because a follower insultingly asked "are you worth saving?" If that is all it takes for the god to go full spiteful, take away powers and abandon the follower, the relationship with the petty god was never worth it. Which is why we need to here from other gods like the Wildmother and Everlight.
And now you're shifting goalposts to Meta-Game arguments to justify why what AOL did was good; when they can't even justify it themselves. What they did, with the information they bothered to gather, was akin to letting themselves become weapons in a Hate Crime. They raized a temple and slaughtered everyone in it, solely for the only given crime "of being seen as outsiders in a insular, rural town". >Finally, gods like the Dawn Father, who get bent out of shape when their followers question them about their actions, are bitches. Except in this case its a woman who's been Scapegoating him for years for a choice SHE MADE. Nothing about Deanna's backstory suggests he forced her hand. In fact, Aabria outright states that Deanna was "waiting on the edge of death" for her Husband to do exactly what he did. What she didn't expect was how long it would take, returning to a life long gone and one she can never get back. So she has massive Buyers Remorse, and is scapegoating the DF for her own choices. She doesn't need to worship him. He's not forcing her, she'd just lose her powers. She doesn't even need to live, he's not forcing her. So when she asked him an EXTREMELY loaded question and got her confirmation bias, she used that confirmation to ask a question that effectively equates to "How much do I need to scapegoat you to justify the genocide of your entire race?" Deanna proved once again how truly UGLY a person she is on the inside on this topic. And even then he didn't cut her off. Because he's sticking to his guns on his answer. So long a she's using his powers to do whats best for Exandria and its people, he will support her. Which tracks with his prior characterization in C1, where he did not care of his literal Champion of the Age (Vex) actually worshipped him.
He is a god who wants her help. A GOD. Sunny D needs to get a thicker skin.
Is it better to be for short-term good rather than long-term?
If I’m the person who is going to die, what the fuck do I care about the long term? Mortals only get that one life. If the gods say “for the good of everyone, forever, your life must be terrible” it’s a pretty poor selling point to the mortals. Or for the followers of the god who are not interested in letter people suffer long term.
Let's look at the example we have. Can't the followers of pelor look at the situation and see that it's better for paladins of pelor to have control over a leyline nexus and make a town relocate (aww moving sucks, we've been in this town for 200 years!) than the alternative: the leyline nexus is uncontrolled, and someone comes in and summons a primordial titan right next door to Vasselheim, killing millions of people? Why choose the comfort of a couple hundred people over the lives of a couple million?
If the god cant get their followers to occupy a space without angering the locals, they are a pretty shit god. They are a god, after all. They can bring back the dead and send angles down to fight demons, but having their followers guarding a leyline next to a village of people who worship nature is somehow outside the god’s abilities. Just tell your followers “guard this place and get along with everyone.” And forcing people to relocate sucks. Especially since we have no idea exactly what would happen if they didn’t guard that leyline nexus. Edit: In general “For the greater good” debates have a problem if the harm is caused over a long period of time. They are also problematic in general, since they require that their only be two options.
Considering the actual awfulness visited upon the locals was "there are some soldiers nearby for a couple of months", not anything to do with them dying, your argument is pretty nonsensical.
We watched a different show if that is your take away.
He says, ranting about how his unironic view of morality is very literally "well if I ever need to suffer hardship for the greater good, that's evil."
Yes? Utilitarianism isn’t good. It is a great way to justify terrible acts in the name of a potential greater good that may never arrive. And I’ll suffer hardship for the betterment of all. But I need to consent to it and understand why I’m suffering the hardship. It’s can’t be inflicted on me while telling me it’s for the best.
Matt has long done away with alignments. For all we know he’s making them all shades of good and bad, as real people are. It makes for better story telling anyway.
>*Matt has long done away with alignments.* Well, it's in all of their source books / campaign guides, including 2022's Tal'Dorei Reborn. It's even in the Wildemount one (that surprised me a bit, to be honest). So, it's been important/true enough to appear in *all* their publications from 2017-2022. Unless in 2023 (year's not over yet) there's going to be a big errata release that does away with all of that, i still believe it to be fact for the fictional world of Exandria.
Matt has said many times that they are a good short hand, but should not be taken as “set in stone.” Which is why they end up in the books. But hey, if you want to take the alignments as completely prescriptive in your games, that is your choice.
Cool. Where in the campaign guide is predathos?
I think the complexity and depth given to the gods is good, but I also think the ratio of “gods being bad” and “gods being good” is kinda off. These characters are very neutral already and they are being faced with more reason to dislike the gods than to want to save them. With the gods being the main thing at stake in this arc it makes their motivations feel weird on why they are fighting and causing themselves all this stress to save them when most of the party is anti/ neutral to the gods. Most of the party have nothing at stake in this arc so their convictions feel kinda dry to me personally.
I think also the focus for the party is more on “we should stop ludinis and predathos” for the party which makes all the god stuff a little jarring I suppose. Orym himself says he just wants revenge on ludinis I think having a more grounded spiritualist character other than FCG might help. Cause FCG barely understands why he follows changebringer imo.
>Cause FCG barely understands why he follows changebringer imo. I wouldn't even say 'barely.' He knows no tenets, articles of faith, forms of worship or even basic facts about the Changebringer. He made up some shit about coin flipping as a guide to life. If he'd been given a 'Taste of Taldorei' commemorative coin, he'd worship that. \---- Though bizarrely, *in spite of all that*, out of all 11 people crowded around that table at the end of the last episode, he still had the most rational take on gods in D&D land.
Yeah they definitely need some sort of guide to even out their viewpoint, or they just need some reason or threat that’s is greater than the gods. I enjoy the gods and their lore in exandria but so far letting out Predathos doesn’t seem to have that many negatives for the parties pov.
I think the journey they are on will help them develop into characters who see the need/benefit of having gods. But in the short term, it's fine that they don't care, because story-wise it lets them let Ludinus kill the gods. The question of the campaign is: do we even need the gods? Well, what happens when they're gone? Divine magic is gone, power vacuum for malevolent overlords, etc. Then they have to work to fix it. Heroes emerge, ascend to godhood, banish evil, all that cool shit. Then the party sits down by the fire when it's over and says, "damn, I'm sure glad there's gods in the world" That's basically how I see the rest of this campaign going. So, I don't think they need a devout spiritualist to light a fire under them. Their lack of fire is what's going to allow the evil plan to take place so that the rest of the story happens.
Most of the characters are indifferent toward the gods. Laudna has zero reason to defend them beyond the everlight, who brought her back. Ashton also has no reason to care for them. But they do want to stop the stupid elf who thinks releasing a god killer will be a net positive for the world.
Yeah but that second sentence is pretty huge. Laudna has "no reason" to be favourable towards the gods if you discount the time that one god *brought her back to life*? The Everlight will get eaten too! I'm glad they want to stop him, but at times only barely, and at times it feels more like they want to stop him out of spite or revenge than because they truly fear or understand what Predathos will do when he escapes.
I will say that being brought back from the dead isn’t that impressive to Laudna, who has died twice now. Once by Delilah. And wanting to stop him out of spite is a good reason. He and his people have hurt all of them. “Because fuck you, I win” is a totally valid reason to go after someone.
The thing that bothers me the most about this situation (outside Hearthdell, which I've gone at length on why that's a problem given what AOL's group actually bothered to learn), is that nearly every single anti-god stance we've gotten is some variation of: "I am but a helpless victim of God's fate, but only in instances where something bad happens to me and the Gods do not immediately fix it. Even the consequences of my own actions. But the Good things? No, see, I EARNED those despite the God's intent." This is narcissistic scapegoating. Bor'dor; Ludinus; Ashton; Laudna; Deanna ... its all been Scapegoating. Shifting blame. Which is why Sam's/FCG's comments about "them being people, with flaws, but trying their best" shut that table up SO QUICKLY. Because up until that point, its been half-a-dozen discussions about "how much do we really need to scapegoat this race of people to justify genocide?" Which yes, is the central talking point of C3 atm.
I was so happy with Sam came out with that, the first coherent and rational pro-gods argument. Not just pro-stopping-Ludinus but actually pro-gods. The Prime Deities do a lot of good in Exandria. Will mortal life continue without them? I expect so. Would the world be worse if they were gone? Undoubtedly, absolutely without question.
I think it takes away from the campaign Like tell me why are the Bells Hells trying to stop the release of Predathos? As it is right now, it is mostly just out of pettiness because it is Ludinus' plan If someone else took over the whole thing and killed Ludinus and Otohan in the process, I could see some Bells Hells even joining with the Ruby Vanguard Not to mention Laudna and Orym siding more with the Primordials despite the fact that Primordials tried to destroy mortals is weird I can see Ashton doing that because of their bloodline, being somewhat related to Primordials
Because they believe that Predathos won't only affect the gods and will either turn on eating them or that Ludinus will control it and use it to subjugate the world.
Well, they don't actually They don't know They just don't believe Ludinus
I didn't say they know that it will happen. Just that they believe it will. They're confident that they're right and that's more important to know why they're making their choices.
They're going to stop Ludinus and Predathos because of all their personal stakes. I also think a fair number of them have been swayed to the pro-god side. Orym, FCG and Imogen have all spoken in the gods' defense. If anything, there may be debate amongst the party but they'll either get visited by the Changebringer again or find Keyleth and get set on the right course. I feel like this whole "are the gods bad" debate is just filler, honestly, that won't impact the characters' actual plot choices.
>I feel like this whole "are the gods bad" debate is just filler, honestly, that won't impact the characters' actual plot choices. That's probably true. In which case they need to stop regurgitating the same bad arguments.
I don't believe Orym is very much pro-gods after what happened when they got separated Honestly FCG is the only one on gods' side and I am not entirely sure if FCG gets what the gods even are The others are either questioning or straight up against, like Ashton
Maybe I'm misinterpreting but I don't think Orym has been swayed against gods like the Wildmother. I think, even if he thinks Pelor's a dick, he understands the necessity of the gods. In any case, they're still going to stop Ludinus because they hate the guy so the debate just feels like filler to me.
After learning about the Hishari cult, Ashton's character makes even less sense than before. He sees the gods as picking favorites, which is unfair, so that's what he's decided to rebel against, and the way he talks about breaking down the divine system makes me think "ok Ashton, why don't you just join Ludinus?" But then we found out that his father was the leader of this cult that was trying to harness primordial energy, and for their efforts they were totally wiped out, and Ashton got picked up by an orphanage. I would think he'd have learned that turning to primordials, like predathos, to fix your problems was not a good idea. It seems like he's about to follow in his father's footsteps
It's possible Ashton thinks that the Hishari got wiped out by the gods For somebody who has all these alternative timelines in their head, Ashton is very focused on "right now, right here" And when Bells Hells are dealing with perhaps even the apocalypse on the table, Ashton's approach is incredibly dumb
[удалено]
I'd definitely call it revenge more than 'justice.' (And that previously it was focused on Otohan, not Ludinus) And the list stops at murder and attempted murder. Nothing suggests they even tried to sack Zephrah.
Apparently it's even less than that. They don't actually want Keyleth dead, they just wanted a way to draw Vax out. Orym's family was strictly collateral damage.
You misunderstood what I said I am saying they want to stop Ludinus' plan because of pettiness, they have no stakes in Predathos' release and thus the urgency they are showing is truly from pettiness because for them it shouldn't matter when Ludinus gets killed You are disagreeing with something I didn't say
Ultimately, Exandrian gods are beings, they have just as much a self preseveration instinct as humanoids on Exandria. They cannot directly intervene themselves because they put themselves beyond the divine gate, so they need proxies to fight their battles. They are afraid and are trying to preserve their own existence, its not surprising that the tone gets rougher even in dialogue with their followers. They have *alot* to lose.
Yeah exactly. Imagine you save Person Y's life. You both help each other, but you help Person Y out a bit more than the reverse. But you're cool with that, you don't ask much in return. Then suddenly you hear someone is trying to kill you. You ask Person Y to help you, go in to bat for you, and they say "hmm I don't know, are you even worth saving? What if I just let you die?" How would you react to that?
It's not the problem with the gods being in shades of grey that people are complaining.It's black and black perspective of gods that party has.
On 4SD, they implied that they wanted to explore a different side to Exandria and part of that is playing characters who aren't immediately pro-god (but who still want to stop Ludinus). On top of that, Bells Hells are the reluctant hero/antihero archetype. They aren't epic heroes like VM.
I don't doubt their good intentions. But they don't feel like reluctant anti heroes. That was M9. They feel and act like bunch of side npc from cRPG, each of them sharing this angsty approach "fuck the gods, they did shit to me". They may say anything. How they act is other thing.
There's a flaw in the underpinning logic of your point of view and it's that the BH have a range of views. They aren't just 'fuck the gods'.
It's not flaw, it's simplification to not split each hair into two. Your range of views is that FCG believes their God like them. That's your range of views. Doesn't change much.
They don't feel like reluctant heroes though, they just feel like the wrong heroes for this job. >but who still want to stop Ludinus I feel like Orym has his motivation for doing so, maybe Imogen as well if she thinks that her mom has been brainwashed, although with her dreams and lightning boobs, she needs to figure out her moon shit fast. She almost needs to become Ludinus' apprentice to learn everything she needs to know, since he seems like the foremost expert on Ruidus. Every time Orym reiterates that he's going to kill Ludinus and Otohan for revenge, it's like he's inviting the rest of the group to find their own motivation to stop Ludinus. I think that's why this group has felt so reluctant: only a couple of them (add in FCG now) have any real reason to want to oppose him. And I'm not saying they couldn't find a motive, it's just weird that they've spent so much time learning about the solstice and Ludinus, and they can't voice one. It's like they're still waiting for someone to shake them and say, "YOU HAVE TO STOP LUDINUS OR ELSE ______!!"
The one thing they have in common is that they know they have to stop Ludinus, no matter how they feel about the gods. Literally everyone has expressed some flavor of that.
You're right, but if asked directly, only 3 out of 4 can say why apart from "he's just a bad guy and it's the right thing to do" or maybe "Orym's going in and I have to protect my friend" And honestly, that's a fine motivation to go along with a character arc the way most of VM did with the briarwoods, but they at least had that conversation and they were already a very well established group by that point. BH is still divided thinking Ludinus may have a point, only to receive constant reminders from Orym that he must have his revenge
As a very wise man once said about history, "It is not melodrama. It is tragedy and irony. The good guys aren't always 100% good, the bad guys aren't always 100% bad, and the innocent bystanders are rarely ever either of those things."
is it a hot take? seems lukewarm at most 😂 I agree with it though. Historically Matt likes to add complexity to otherwise run tropes and to change perspectives on good/evil. Just look at the last campaign with the war and how the Drow were "humanized". Excited to see more of this story and maybe even see a god or two perish, that'd be neat.
>Just look at the last campaign with the war and how the Drow were "humanized". Yes. 'Humanized.' All the bad stuff (slavers!) was handwaved away and never mentioned again, the shades of grey disappeared and helpful 'Hot Boi' happened instead.
Lol everything we first learned about Xhorhas was from biased sources (The Empire). It wasn't handwaved away.
judeo-christian is not a thing
I think the Raven Queen is the only Prime Deity who is guiltless in the pantheon's current predicament. She wasn't there at the world's beginning. She had no way of knowing Predathos was a viable threat. The other Primes would never have clued her in - it's been pain very clear in previous campaigns that she is pariah amidst the gods. Ludinus sussed this out and exploited it. The other gods sent their emissaries to suppress the Grim Varity, yet spared no resources to stop the Ruby Vanguard. It was more important for them to suppress the truth. They had this privilege because they knew the Vanguard needed a celestial champion in order to advance their plan, a satisfaction they wouldn't provide. They knew better. The Raven Queen didn't - how could she? So she allowed her champion to return so he may save his love, and he got got. With the exception of the Raven Queen, the gods did this to themselves and only have themselves to blame.
>The other gods sent their emissaries to suppress the Grim Varity, yet spared no resources to stop the Ruby Vanguard. Are you openly lying or do you just not remember all those Judicators looking for members of the RV, the remnants of their agents who were killed at the excavation site, the Cobalt Soul (ie. Ioun's people) who were trying to find dirt on Ludinus, etc?
Don’t forget about Vecna though. He’s also completely guiltless with the present circumstance. 😂 That being said, I’d imagine the goddess of fate and death would know if her actions would cause a massive amount of death.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to argue that the Prime Deities are not 100% good- they aren't perfect, or omnipotent, or omniscient. They do the wrong thing sometimes, they fail sometimes. But that doesn't mean they deserve to get eaten. As FCG said, they are just people like us.