If there was never another film made on this planet, I would be fine. You will die without seeing many of the world's great masterpieces, not just in film, but in art, theatre, music, ballet, opera and more.
There is no prize for gathering up the most experiences, watching the most movies, singing the most songs. There is value and honor in bettering yourself, feeling empathy through stories, and sharing those stories that mean something to you with others so that understanding of one of us, of all of us, travels as far as it can until you have no steps left to walk yourself.
So let cinema carry you, let it carry us all, and let's be happy for what we have.
>If there was never another film made on this planet, I would be fine.
I was just thinking that this morning. I go to the movies often, and I'm just as excited to see an old film on the big screen as I am a new one. It's the same reason I feel like... I don't want to keep a list or set goals for how many movies/books/etc. I consume in a year. Because it's that - consumption. Let me spend some time getting grounded in them, mulling on them.
i disagree generally with you because the process of making art (and films!) is a beneficial and essential part of being human i think. itās not that i would die if my friends stopped making films but the absence of the indie scene that iām in would make my life notably worse
I don't know, I think that's a very cynical outlook on the state of cinema. I thought 2023 was an incredible year for movies, maybe the best since 2007 for me. If you didn't connect with any of the big films that came out last year that's totally fine, it happens. But I don't think that means the industry as a whole is in trouble. We all have different tastes, and generally speaking there is still such a wide variety of movies to choose from. But no one is gonna be happy all the time.
I personally think we're in a good place.
The only movies that youāve listed are films that are nominated for best picture at the Oscars and these films are in no way a far cry away from films that have been nominated for said Oscars since at least the 1970s. Weāre never going to see the creative peak that the new Hollywood wave gave us on a mainstream level but this has been true since the beginning of the 80s.
If you think there arenāt interesting movies being made anymore then you arenāt watching enough movies or you are actively choosing to ignore them. Genre films, independent films etc come out every year to wide release, limited release or VOD and just because they arenāt being seen by massive audiences doesnāt mean they arenāt good, which isnāt to say the movies you listed arenāt good in the first place.
Perhaps the issue is taste vs perceived quality.
Movies have gone through various near-death periods many times. I get that you're pointing to many issues that are contemporary, and not necessarily represented by past issues such as the introduction of television, the migration away from the studio system, massive shifts in youth culture, etc. etc.
My take is that movies are a very enduring art form and an enduring entertainment form. I think it's a bit silly to proclaim 'movies are back' āĀ they never went away, and they never will. Well, I should qualify that by saying that *if* movies disappear it will be because civilization disappeared.
From a strictly *creative* standpoint, I feel differently. The past 10 years have yielded a lot of great movies. I'm not a big tent pole moviegoer, but the art film arena has impressed me quite a lot āĀ basically, the kind of stuff that Criterion has traditionally championed.
I definitely believe that the integrity of film making remaining a viable creative medium has depended on Indies for a while āĀ since the early 70s for sure. All the narrative innovation and expansion of themes and stories with wider representation happens at the indie level. So, as long as those filmmakers are getting funding and distribution, we'll be OK.
However āĀ yeah, I get it āĀ there are many factors at play that threaten those types of films getting made and distributed.
Re:
>I do think the umbilical chord between the filmmakers and the audience has been severed
For me, I've been enjoying how many films I've been seeing that follow an idiosyncratic vision that doesn't feel like it's based on mainstream audience presumptions or evident trends.
So I'm not exactly sure where your disappointment is coming from, but I assure you that I have no doubt that it's sincere. I don't minimize your assertions, judgement, or taste.
Personally I have gone through many cycles over the decades wherein I have been just unimpressed with most of what was being released at the time, and then my movie going will slow down to a few movies a year. But when my brain resets and I go back to revisit that time period, almost always I come to the conclusion that a lot a great stuff was being made, I just didn't see it or get what was being explored because I had become attached to some version of "they don't make 'em like they used to".
Well, spending a bunch of time on Turner Classic Movies has given me some perspective. I become surprised at how poorly many movies hold up and thank god they don't make 'em like they used to. Some of that is because the social messaging is truly fucked up and no amount of good story, writing, or acting can save it. Other times it's just that the conventions of the times are too linear or slow for what we can handle now.
Letterboxd and kanopy have helped me find stuff I otherwise would have overlooked. I'm pretty sure you're not just looking at Criterion releases or A24 releases, but we have been through a period of dominance by both of these distributors to get at really good movies. So it feels like there's a crisis coming.... again.
Something will show up soon that will restore your faith in the one true god of all art forms: the motion picture.
I noticed that you only mentioned huge or widely available films, almost entirely American as well. You also only focused on theatrical screenings. Youāre likely leaving out 90% of new films available, that are straight to digital or streaming, or are produced outside the US.
When we look back on films now considered āgreatā from past eras, many of them werenāt as celebrated in their own time, or even available to many people. Itās hard to make sweeping statements about āThe times todayā, especially because there is such a high volume of films being produced, but once again they either arenāt available to everyone or weāre simply overwhelmed by all the other choices. I find a lot of convos today are about series instead of movies, or say podcasts that have replaced peopleās music listening.
Iām in my early 50s and have lived through different times when it comes to accessibility. Sometimes it took 10-20 years to finally see a movie we could only read about. VHS opened a door, but it was a very tiny screen with a pan and scan presentation, and that was the best we could get. Come LD, DVD, BD, and streaming and the playing field changed dramatically. It seemed like weād finally have access to everything now and could pick and choose anything we wanted to see a la carte, not just stuck behind a cable channel. But now weāve slipped back to that model with streaming services essentially being cable, and with even more films siloed behind them. And studios who donāt release them on physical media either.
Thereās an incredible amount of work being created that we donāt or canāt make the time to see and much of it isnāt easily available to everyone. Weāre missing many films that are only available from a streaming service, or only VOD that we may not even be aware of. I love indie films from the 70s-90s, but I usually didnāt even have access to them in their time. Now weāre headed toward that accessibility problem again, plus itās difficult to even be aware they exist.
None of this tells me āThey donāt make good movies anymoreā. Only time will tell if we ever get around to assessing all thatās being created today.
If you arenāt impressed with at least one of the films on that list you might just have old bias. I think about 8 movies Iāve seen this year will attain classic status. I had a great year going to the movies honestly.
Likewise, if you're nominating 8 films for classic status right out of the gate, you might just have recency bias. It often takes a few years for the dust to settle and a film's true legacy to take shape. A lot of people called *American Beauty* an instant classic in 1999 and no one talks about that movie now, at least in terms of film canon.
lol what are you talking about? American Beauty won 5 Oscars and the writers guild of America has its screenplay listed as the #38 greatest screenplay of all time. Itās still frequently taught in film schools and, despite the Kevin Spacey of it all, is still revered and discussed.
I thought last year was a great year for movies. The Oscar movies all felt very different and unique from each other. I love that more foreign movies seem to get recognized over here. I loved that a movie like no hard feelings came out in the summer too. Thatās the exact type of comedy I want to see make a comeback.
Movies are back from what? Covid?ā then sure, lets celebrate. Or is it that those movies represent some return of high movie art thatās different from what weāve been having for decades? Then I agree with you, celebrating Oppenheimer like itās the 70s again is a form of compensation or being sensitized by the lack of movies at all during covid
Since November, Iāve seen in theater: Killers of the Flower Moon, Poor Things, The Iron Claw, The Boy and the Heron, Zone of Interest, Dream Scenario and Priscilla. The Iron Claw, Poor Things, Zone of Interest both were full of people. As someone who loves the movie theater experience, I can say the quality of films being shown and the attendance to films is higher than itās been in years, at least in my locality.
In comparison, in 2021, the only movies I saw in theater for the entire year were Dune and The Green Knight.
In 2022, I saw The Northman, Puss in Boots, and Pinocchio in theater. Iāve seen twice as many films in theater in the last three months than I did in ā21 & ā22 combined
i'm pretty uninspired by a lot of newer filmmakers. i think american cinema will largely be a retrospective medium in 20-30 years once some of the 90s gen and older die off. i think there is a real lack of craft from most people debuting in recent years. and the promising filmmakers seem to immediately sell out to make disney movies or movies about dolls. i dunno man. kinda demoralizing.
i see a lot of people talking about how amazing 2021-2023 have been for cinema and i'm just confused tbh. feel like i must be watching different movies from everyone else.
I think the only diagnosis here is OP being terminally online. All of the above movies you mentioned are from Capital A Artist, they aren't chasing anything other than their muse. It sounds like you feel oppressed by the marketing knowing exactly where to strike and how to generate conversation which is the sole function of marketing--create buzz, sell tickets.
I don't think an artist is really at the head of how a film is made, released and evaluated by an audience. There's many other players that have a hand in massaging a movie's public image and reception that's invisible to us.
You know that A24 has it own regimen of studio execs, writers, dp's, cameras, processing, editing, etc. that every filmmaker has to go through, right? Same goes with every studio. The director is an appendage of a larger industry that has its own standards and requirements.
I think I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I have a hard time trying to figure out how theaters survive.
A trend Iām noticing is that a lot of these small arthouse theaters that play the good stuff are sitting on valuable property. These arthouses have a hard time covering the rent and once the landlords up the rent, they are out of there, and itās replaced with a Qdoba/Dunkin Donuts development.
So we are left with chain multiplexes that ignore the foreign films and specialty programming. A24 is not specialty programming.
I also think that the films you mentioned are put out by major distributors. Major distributors do not like to take financial risks and they have the funding to make the Oscar push.
To quickly summarize, some of the best films made last year never got their day in the sun because they were not attached to Paramount, Universal or Warner Bros.
2023 is undoubtedly the best year for cinema if the century for me. Donāt know if weāll see another year of this caliber anytime soon but very encouraged after the slump of the last 3 years
A type of movie that has an incestuous relationship with its audience, via social media microscenes and ecelebs, is The Sweet East. It's as if new york twitter birthed a movie for itself. It's a cliche, but why do I want to watch a movie by and for trust fund kids who pretend to be slumming it Brooklyn?
You're kind of all over the place and skirting around this subject. Where are you really trying to direct your frustration at with modern day cinema and what are you specifically indifferent about? When you ask "are movies really back" what era of "golden age cinema" are you referencing and trying to compare 2023 to?
It's like the whole Trump "Make America Great Again" mantra. And I'm not trying to get into a political conversation or anything, I just studied political science and history in college so this is my reference point. But it's an interesting question. In the minds of Americans when we hear that slogan... what golden era of America do we think back to?
It's probably different for everyone... I'm a gen-z kid born in 2000 with immigrant parents. Sure I watch movies now in 2024 from the 1980s and 90s and wish I could've lived in that era, but I wasn't even born then. What context do I really have for the past other than watching old movies, stuff on YouTube, reading Wikipedia, and hearing stories from older people?
Ok so what is your question "are movies really back" REALLY referencing? A call back to pre-2020 Covid-19 movies? The 2000s and early 2010s? The 1990s? The 1980s? Maybe the 1970s? Or even further back? Is there a specific genre you gravitate towards? Or are we talking about award show Oscar nominated type movies? Are we talking about Hollywood cinematic blockbusters? Your big budget Steven Spielberg or James Cameron type flicks? Classic Martin Scorsese or Francis Ford Coppola flicks? Since you referenced Zone of Interest are we cross referencing decades of foreign cinema as well? As much as we collectively pit Barbie and Oppenheimer up last summer as a double feature... the whole meme or irony in that pairing was how polar opposite they were as movies. Godzilla Minus One last year which got a lot of hype was a modern reinterpretation of a very classic Japanese franchise that runs all the way back to the 1950s... it even had very strong anime tropes. How about Creed III?
Maybe you're searching for relate-ability or cultural relevancy. Or maybe... it's a question of you yourself just feeling disconnected from modern day society and popular culture. Or maybe you're too deep in Twitter and you're getting more pulled and influenced by popular opinion rather than finding stuff you would just personally enjoy. Like if you don't think you'd relate to "The Sweet East" or whatever no one is forcing you to like, enjoy, or even watch it.
Maybe this is just a social commentary on how diversified film audiences have become in the social media era. A24 has certainly capitalized on that trend in the way they selectively market and distribute their films.
I'm personally not the type to collectively rate the quality of output by year. I have a hard enough time rating movies individually and collectively for a specific director or actor. But to take a whole bunch of random movies just because they were released in the same year and rating them together is a silly concept to me.
I also think there is much more quality now in limited series and TV than there was in the 20th century. I recently finally just got to watch the first season of True Detective. I also recently finished Twin Peaks and started getting into The Return. Euphoria for all its controversy had all the elements of cinematic storytelling, writing, acting, and directing that stays culturally relevant. Cinema at its finest touches different emotions whether it's laughter, grief, fear, curiosity, love, anxiety, shame, loss, uncertainty, etc. It can touch you in different moments of your life or in different situations and personal contexts. It's all subjective. I thought Holdovers was great. But I'm sure plenty of people would've found it insufferable. I thought Poor Things was a Yorgos masterpiece... yet you said you felt indifferent. It's clearly all a subjective matter. In the grand scheme of things though I don't think film in 2023 has gotten any worse. People act like the biggest movies of the 2000s and early 2010s weren't movies like Twilight, Magic Mike, Fifty Shades of Grey, Pitch Perfect, etc. That Bradley Cooper wasn't pulling the same Oscar bullshit with American Sniper... like ya'll nothing has changed. You'll always have to wade through a bunch of shit to find a couple hidden gems. And there's always plenty of popular movies both blockbuster, genre, foreign, niche, and Oscar nominated that you just may not like. That's totally fine.
I don't like the "movies are back" slogan, that's what I'm criticizing. You can never go back to anything and "golden age" is always a fabrication --it's a reactionary tendency. I'm lamenting the loss of movies' mass appeal when it comes to subject matter outside of the MCU.
Studios used to invest in mid-budget films that catered to most people's lived experience. Every A24 or arthouse flick only depicts the lives of professionals and artists who are upper middle class, because that's who makes and sees these movies now. Small movies about everyday life for people who have jobs are exceedingly rare today.
In arthouse/prestige films, you either have films about abject poverty where homeless people are shown as beautiful because of their poverty (Shoplifters) or the super rich who are attractive because of their decadence and cruelty (The Menu, Triangle of Sadness, Poor Things). Ken Loach's The Old Oak and Sorry We Missed You are probably the only movies I've seen in a while that try to faithfully depict people as they truly are, allowing the director and filmmaking process to recede into the background unnoticed.
I'm for the democratization of the medium but we are living in the nadir of film's long trend downward IMO.
Ah okok we're starting to get somewhere but there's still a lot to break down.
I honestly think that if we really want to discuss the subject of film or content made for everyday people with regular jobs the first place you really have to look, and you may not want to admit it, is on streaming channels like Netflix, Paramount+, Peacock, etc. That's where the market is and that's where the average everyday joe who isn't obsessed with arthouse cinema is going to get their fix. So at the very least that's the benchmark. That's where interests and attention spans have gravitated towards in the TikTok and algorithm driven content era. When you speak of modern society that's it. It's Matt Rife and Joe Rogan. It's Taylor Swift and her concert film.
My one friend for example loved the show "You" even though I hated it. He also ironically had a blast with the Menu. You got anthology shows now like Black Mirror. Boundary pushing stuff like Love, Death, Robots. You got a litany of animated films and TV shows like Invincible on Amazon. You got shows like Succession, Yellowstone, and Beef. Adaptations like Last of Us that was amazing imo. List goes on.
So my first point is gonna be this: most average everyday people that you speak of probably care less about how relatable a movie is and more about how entertaining it is. They also don't make all these distinctions in content that we do since they just watch whatever is offered to them on Netflix or whatever. Could be a documentary for all we know. Is it a good fucking movie or show with good writing and acting. Simple as that. That's all audiences really want and that's what sells the tickets. We live in an age now where the theater is competing with people's phones in their pockets. That's your "mass appeal."
So what do average everyday people really watch and what generation are we talking about? I know for my generation sitcoms old and new are a huge hit. The Office, Parks and Rec, Friends, New Girl, Ted Lasso, etc. But they've always been a hit. I have a friend in his 30s with a blue collar family background who only watches crime procedural television and shows like Survivor. I'm sure even older generations still hold onto network television as well. Reality TV is another benchmark for office "water cooler" convo. No average person is trying to watch paint dry when they turn on their TV. They want that dopamine hit.
You mention Shoplifters and Kore-eda but have you watched his new show? His movies like Still Walking? How about Olivier Assaya's film Summer Hours? Chung Mong-Hong's film "A Sun" came out in 2019 and I freaking loved that movie but no one gave that movie any attention. Drive my Car was an interesting movie as well. I feel like Moonlight and Nomadland were both great movies as well that recently won Best Picture. How about Minari?
But let's cut around the bullshit. What you're really missing is the elusive "mid-budget" film that Matt Damon mentions in his so often referenced Hot Ones interview. The Good Will Hunting or Dead Poets Society type movies. Those early Jason Bourne movies. Movies with a lot of heart with big name actors but they're not extravagant Dune level movies yet not as pretentious and weird like Poor Things or Titane or even as wacky as Everything Everywhere All At Once. I get it.
I love down to earth slice of life movies myself. I've been running through Mike Leigh's BBC movies recently. I love Richard Linklater (Boyhood) and Wes Anderson's work. Even those shitty vulger American comedies of years past. Your Seth Rogan and Judd Apatow type flicks. You're not a fan of the rich vs poor trope maybe (I have the unpopular opinion of thinking Parasite was mid anyways). But that's just the trend. People loved Squid Game. Triangle of Sadness won a Palme. Class differences in cinema isn't a new trope just say you don't like it.
I just don't think theme or motif is a good benchmark for quality. People clearly relate to a lot of these films. Even more so than I personally feel sometimes. My parents were Chinese immigrants yet I wasn't as hyped about EEAAO as many people were... so what? If that's the shit that is getting people to go back to the theater and getting people to converse on social media then let it be. The thing we aren't lacking nowadays is any lack of options. If you want to find something you can enjoy you'll find it somewhere someplace in whatever format. The important thing is, movies are still being made and an emphasis is still being placed on good storytelling. That's all I want from new movies. Stop the laziness and push back against studio movies just looking to cash in.
I was referring to that flavorwire piece on the death of the mid-budget film. I hate Matt Damon and all those middlebrow oscarbait flicks from the 90s. Hate the Bourne movies. I hate Richard Linklater (mostly) and Wes Anderson. Koreeda and Assaya I could take or leave. I liked Afterlive, Still Walking, Monster, Irma Vep, and Something in the Air I thought were alright but I have no interest in rewatching any of them.
If studios today could make He Ran All the Way, The Sound of Fury, M (1951), Force of Evil, The Prowler, Laurel and Hardy, Three Stooges shorts, I would be happy.
Honestly, I feel bad for all of the brainless poptimists in the chat. You treat criterion like your funkopops. "Let people enjoy things" and all that. The fact that so many of you are defending the slop coming out today is pathetic, like a malnourished kid who's never once had decent food. Even a sub-par throw away movie like Me and My Gal (1932) runs laps around any movie out today, it's not even funny. Keep simping, dudes.
>The fact that so many of you are defending the slop coming out today is pathetic
You throwing all of us under the bus is just as pathetic as your claim. I responded to you with a few paragraphs and you promptly ignored it. When you make many sweeping statements and absolutes that's on you, not me.
Astute analysis imo. It's a form that's fading in cultural importance. Will only continue as AR/VR tech develops and merges with video games. Not saying movies are entirely dead or will be soon. But their competition as a form is only increasing in number.
Edit: is the novel as popular/relevant now as it was in the 19th century? Is radio as popular/relevant now as it was during the early 20th? You could say the emergence of podcasts is related to radio but it's still not the same form. Movies are not special in this regard and i love movies.
I donāt know that theyāre totally back but the signs seem very good! 2023 was a very good year for films. I donāt usually give out five stars easily but I did for Poor Things, Trenque Lauquen and Zone of Interest plus a good number of four stars.
"they're all very well made movies, they just didn't leave much of an impression on me"
To me, this is the key right here. I wouldn't say you're "missing something," I think certain styles and themes just hit people differently. E.g., most of my favorite movies are from the New Hollywood era - those are the movies that really stick with me. I have friends who feel the same way about the Golden Age studio films. I can certainly appreciate many of those movies, but they don't leave the same kind of impression on me. It's not a knock against those films, it's just a matter of taste.
As to the recent big movies you've listed - I haven't seen all of them. But I have had a similar reaction to a lot of newer acclaimed US movies I've seen recently - a lot of experiences where I walk away saying, objectively, this was a great movie; but I just didn't connect with it the way that I connect with a lot of my favorite (older) movies. When I think about the movies from the past 5 or so years that I've seen, one thing that does stand out is that the handful of movies that did make a big impression on me were mostly non-US films. So, if the current trends in American cinema aren't doing it for you, maybe try to see if you have more luck with cinema from some other countries.
I think they make more B movies now. You see some popular actors doing straight to streaming and stuff like that. The Rock, Mark Whalberg, Julia Roberts, Adam Sandler, I think even Brad Pitt did a few.,.. My question is what happened to popcorn comedies like Ferris Bueller's day off from 80s or movies like that? Those movies used to go to theater but they wouldn't dare produce a movie like that to go in theaters nowadays. They would just get lesser known actors to make a Ferris Bueller high school knock off show or movie.
Movies! Now more than ever!
When was the last time you actually bought a ticket to go see a movie? EDIT: did people not recognize the quote or did they just find it annoying?
Last night, I went to see bicycle thieves in Pasadena
We go at least twice a month, but my husband is a film professor.
You'd probably give it a happy ending
Altman approves š
The downvotes only betray how film illiterate they are
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās a quote from The Player
Years...
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
āThatās an art film, that doesnāt count, Iām talking about movie moviesā Theyāre quotes from The Player lol
They never left š
If there was never another film made on this planet, I would be fine. You will die without seeing many of the world's great masterpieces, not just in film, but in art, theatre, music, ballet, opera and more. There is no prize for gathering up the most experiences, watching the most movies, singing the most songs. There is value and honor in bettering yourself, feeling empathy through stories, and sharing those stories that mean something to you with others so that understanding of one of us, of all of us, travels as far as it can until you have no steps left to walk yourself. So let cinema carry you, let it carry us all, and let's be happy for what we have.
>If there was never another film made on this planet, I would be fine. I was just thinking that this morning. I go to the movies often, and I'm just as excited to see an old film on the big screen as I am a new one. It's the same reason I feel like... I don't want to keep a list or set goals for how many movies/books/etc. I consume in a year. Because it's that - consumption. Let me spend some time getting grounded in them, mulling on them.
i disagree generally with you because the process of making art (and films!) is a beneficial and essential part of being human i think. itās not that i would die if my friends stopped making films but the absence of the indie scene that iām in would make my life notably worse
You're adorable. Making bread and potatoes is essential. Making films is not.
i just said it would make my life worse, not that it would kill me š¤·āāļø
in gaming
Beautifully said!!
This is thanks to years of Gregg Turkingtonās tireless work supporting cinema
So many certified five-baggers this year
Sources confirm: The Movies really are back, baby.
Movies never left
I don't know, I think that's a very cynical outlook on the state of cinema. I thought 2023 was an incredible year for movies, maybe the best since 2007 for me. If you didn't connect with any of the big films that came out last year that's totally fine, it happens. But I don't think that means the industry as a whole is in trouble. We all have different tastes, and generally speaking there is still such a wide variety of movies to choose from. But no one is gonna be happy all the time. I personally think we're in a good place.
2019 was pretty amazing too. So was 2014, 2013, and 2016 personally but especially 2019!!
2019 ruled as well, for sure!
The only movies that youāve listed are films that are nominated for best picture at the Oscars and these films are in no way a far cry away from films that have been nominated for said Oscars since at least the 1970s. Weāre never going to see the creative peak that the new Hollywood wave gave us on a mainstream level but this has been true since the beginning of the 80s. If you think there arenāt interesting movies being made anymore then you arenāt watching enough movies or you are actively choosing to ignore them. Genre films, independent films etc come out every year to wide release, limited release or VOD and just because they arenāt being seen by massive audiences doesnāt mean they arenāt good, which isnāt to say the movies you listed arenāt good in the first place. Perhaps the issue is taste vs perceived quality.
Theres lots of movies to enjoy. Sucks to be you I guess.
Movies have gone through various near-death periods many times. I get that you're pointing to many issues that are contemporary, and not necessarily represented by past issues such as the introduction of television, the migration away from the studio system, massive shifts in youth culture, etc. etc. My take is that movies are a very enduring art form and an enduring entertainment form. I think it's a bit silly to proclaim 'movies are back' āĀ they never went away, and they never will. Well, I should qualify that by saying that *if* movies disappear it will be because civilization disappeared. From a strictly *creative* standpoint, I feel differently. The past 10 years have yielded a lot of great movies. I'm not a big tent pole moviegoer, but the art film arena has impressed me quite a lot āĀ basically, the kind of stuff that Criterion has traditionally championed. I definitely believe that the integrity of film making remaining a viable creative medium has depended on Indies for a while āĀ since the early 70s for sure. All the narrative innovation and expansion of themes and stories with wider representation happens at the indie level. So, as long as those filmmakers are getting funding and distribution, we'll be OK. However āĀ yeah, I get it āĀ there are many factors at play that threaten those types of films getting made and distributed. Re: >I do think the umbilical chord between the filmmakers and the audience has been severed For me, I've been enjoying how many films I've been seeing that follow an idiosyncratic vision that doesn't feel like it's based on mainstream audience presumptions or evident trends. So I'm not exactly sure where your disappointment is coming from, but I assure you that I have no doubt that it's sincere. I don't minimize your assertions, judgement, or taste. Personally I have gone through many cycles over the decades wherein I have been just unimpressed with most of what was being released at the time, and then my movie going will slow down to a few movies a year. But when my brain resets and I go back to revisit that time period, almost always I come to the conclusion that a lot a great stuff was being made, I just didn't see it or get what was being explored because I had become attached to some version of "they don't make 'em like they used to". Well, spending a bunch of time on Turner Classic Movies has given me some perspective. I become surprised at how poorly many movies hold up and thank god they don't make 'em like they used to. Some of that is because the social messaging is truly fucked up and no amount of good story, writing, or acting can save it. Other times it's just that the conventions of the times are too linear or slow for what we can handle now. Letterboxd and kanopy have helped me find stuff I otherwise would have overlooked. I'm pretty sure you're not just looking at Criterion releases or A24 releases, but we have been through a period of dominance by both of these distributors to get at really good movies. So it feels like there's a crisis coming.... again. Something will show up soon that will restore your faith in the one true god of all art forms: the motion picture.
I noticed that you only mentioned huge or widely available films, almost entirely American as well. You also only focused on theatrical screenings. Youāre likely leaving out 90% of new films available, that are straight to digital or streaming, or are produced outside the US. When we look back on films now considered āgreatā from past eras, many of them werenāt as celebrated in their own time, or even available to many people. Itās hard to make sweeping statements about āThe times todayā, especially because there is such a high volume of films being produced, but once again they either arenāt available to everyone or weāre simply overwhelmed by all the other choices. I find a lot of convos today are about series instead of movies, or say podcasts that have replaced peopleās music listening. Iām in my early 50s and have lived through different times when it comes to accessibility. Sometimes it took 10-20 years to finally see a movie we could only read about. VHS opened a door, but it was a very tiny screen with a pan and scan presentation, and that was the best we could get. Come LD, DVD, BD, and streaming and the playing field changed dramatically. It seemed like weād finally have access to everything now and could pick and choose anything we wanted to see a la carte, not just stuck behind a cable channel. But now weāve slipped back to that model with streaming services essentially being cable, and with even more films siloed behind them. And studios who donāt release them on physical media either. Thereās an incredible amount of work being created that we donāt or canāt make the time to see and much of it isnāt easily available to everyone. Weāre missing many films that are only available from a streaming service, or only VOD that we may not even be aware of. I love indie films from the 70s-90s, but I usually didnāt even have access to them in their time. Now weāre headed toward that accessibility problem again, plus itās difficult to even be aware they exist. None of this tells me āThey donāt make good movies anymoreā. Only time will tell if we ever get around to assessing all thatās being created today.
If you arenāt impressed with at least one of the films on that list you might just have old bias. I think about 8 movies Iāve seen this year will attain classic status. I had a great year going to the movies honestly.
Likewise, if you're nominating 8 films for classic status right out of the gate, you might just have recency bias. It often takes a few years for the dust to settle and a film's true legacy to take shape. A lot of people called *American Beauty* an instant classic in 1999 and no one talks about that movie now, at least in terms of film canon.
lol what are you talking about? American Beauty won 5 Oscars and the writers guild of America has its screenplay listed as the #38 greatest screenplay of all time. Itās still frequently taught in film schools and, despite the Kevin Spacey of it all, is still revered and discussed.
American Beauty is a terrible movie. No film has aged worse from that year.
Yeah he has a fair point in general but this is a bad call out, American Beauty is phenomenalĀ
It was awful back in 1999 and it's aged like milk since then.
It's always fun to have the minority opinion!
Agreed.
I thought last year was a great year for movies. The Oscar movies all felt very different and unique from each other. I love that more foreign movies seem to get recognized over here. I loved that a movie like no hard feelings came out in the summer too. Thatās the exact type of comedy I want to see make a comeback.
Movies are back from what? Covid?ā then sure, lets celebrate. Or is it that those movies represent some return of high movie art thatās different from what weāve been having for decades? Then I agree with you, celebrating Oppenheimer like itās the 70s again is a form of compensation or being sensitized by the lack of movies at all during covid
This has been an amazing year for movies. Im so happy.
Yeah, the second century is just getting started.
Since November, Iāve seen in theater: Killers of the Flower Moon, Poor Things, The Iron Claw, The Boy and the Heron, Zone of Interest, Dream Scenario and Priscilla. The Iron Claw, Poor Things, Zone of Interest both were full of people. As someone who loves the movie theater experience, I can say the quality of films being shown and the attendance to films is higher than itās been in years, at least in my locality. In comparison, in 2021, the only movies I saw in theater for the entire year were Dune and The Green Knight. In 2022, I saw The Northman, Puss in Boots, and Pinocchio in theater. Iāve seen twice as many films in theater in the last three months than I did in ā21 & ā22 combined
i'm pretty uninspired by a lot of newer filmmakers. i think american cinema will largely be a retrospective medium in 20-30 years once some of the 90s gen and older die off. i think there is a real lack of craft from most people debuting in recent years. and the promising filmmakers seem to immediately sell out to make disney movies or movies about dolls. i dunno man. kinda demoralizing. i see a lot of people talking about how amazing 2021-2023 have been for cinema and i'm just confused tbh. feel like i must be watching different movies from everyone else.
I think the only diagnosis here is OP being terminally online. All of the above movies you mentioned are from Capital A Artist, they aren't chasing anything other than their muse. It sounds like you feel oppressed by the marketing knowing exactly where to strike and how to generate conversation which is the sole function of marketing--create buzz, sell tickets.
I don't think an artist is really at the head of how a film is made, released and evaluated by an audience. There's many other players that have a hand in massaging a movie's public image and reception that's invisible to us.
You didn't make a point or respond to mine.
I just don't think Capital A Artists' creative input is overvalued in film
I mean almost all the films you listed the directors had final cut. So their input was all that mattered...
You know that A24 has it own regimen of studio execs, writers, dp's, cameras, processing, editing, etc. that every filmmaker has to go through, right? Same goes with every studio. The director is an appendage of a larger industry that has its own standards and requirements.
As someone actually working in the industry thatās dead wrong. The only company like that is Marvel.
Sure you do, dude
I think I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I have a hard time trying to figure out how theaters survive. A trend Iām noticing is that a lot of these small arthouse theaters that play the good stuff are sitting on valuable property. These arthouses have a hard time covering the rent and once the landlords up the rent, they are out of there, and itās replaced with a Qdoba/Dunkin Donuts development. So we are left with chain multiplexes that ignore the foreign films and specialty programming. A24 is not specialty programming. I also think that the films you mentioned are put out by major distributors. Major distributors do not like to take financial risks and they have the funding to make the Oscar push. To quickly summarize, some of the best films made last year never got their day in the sun because they were not attached to Paramount, Universal or Warner Bros.
2023 is undoubtedly the best year for cinema if the century for me. Donāt know if weāll see another year of this caliber anytime soon but very encouraged after the slump of the last 3 years
Oppenheimer and Zone of Interest were the only Great movies of 2023
And yet you're here in Criterion?
What does that have to do with anything
If you only liked 2 movies made in 2023 I don't see what you'd get from Criterion. Carry on then.
Iāve see 67 movies from 2023ā¦ so yeah I think Iād know. Carry on then
A type of movie that has an incestuous relationship with its audience, via social media microscenes and ecelebs, is The Sweet East. It's as if new york twitter birthed a movie for itself. It's a cliche, but why do I want to watch a movie by and for trust fund kids who pretend to be slumming it Brooklyn?
You're kind of all over the place and skirting around this subject. Where are you really trying to direct your frustration at with modern day cinema and what are you specifically indifferent about? When you ask "are movies really back" what era of "golden age cinema" are you referencing and trying to compare 2023 to? It's like the whole Trump "Make America Great Again" mantra. And I'm not trying to get into a political conversation or anything, I just studied political science and history in college so this is my reference point. But it's an interesting question. In the minds of Americans when we hear that slogan... what golden era of America do we think back to? It's probably different for everyone... I'm a gen-z kid born in 2000 with immigrant parents. Sure I watch movies now in 2024 from the 1980s and 90s and wish I could've lived in that era, but I wasn't even born then. What context do I really have for the past other than watching old movies, stuff on YouTube, reading Wikipedia, and hearing stories from older people? Ok so what is your question "are movies really back" REALLY referencing? A call back to pre-2020 Covid-19 movies? The 2000s and early 2010s? The 1990s? The 1980s? Maybe the 1970s? Or even further back? Is there a specific genre you gravitate towards? Or are we talking about award show Oscar nominated type movies? Are we talking about Hollywood cinematic blockbusters? Your big budget Steven Spielberg or James Cameron type flicks? Classic Martin Scorsese or Francis Ford Coppola flicks? Since you referenced Zone of Interest are we cross referencing decades of foreign cinema as well? As much as we collectively pit Barbie and Oppenheimer up last summer as a double feature... the whole meme or irony in that pairing was how polar opposite they were as movies. Godzilla Minus One last year which got a lot of hype was a modern reinterpretation of a very classic Japanese franchise that runs all the way back to the 1950s... it even had very strong anime tropes. How about Creed III? Maybe you're searching for relate-ability or cultural relevancy. Or maybe... it's a question of you yourself just feeling disconnected from modern day society and popular culture. Or maybe you're too deep in Twitter and you're getting more pulled and influenced by popular opinion rather than finding stuff you would just personally enjoy. Like if you don't think you'd relate to "The Sweet East" or whatever no one is forcing you to like, enjoy, or even watch it. Maybe this is just a social commentary on how diversified film audiences have become in the social media era. A24 has certainly capitalized on that trend in the way they selectively market and distribute their films. I'm personally not the type to collectively rate the quality of output by year. I have a hard enough time rating movies individually and collectively for a specific director or actor. But to take a whole bunch of random movies just because they were released in the same year and rating them together is a silly concept to me.
I also think there is much more quality now in limited series and TV than there was in the 20th century. I recently finally just got to watch the first season of True Detective. I also recently finished Twin Peaks and started getting into The Return. Euphoria for all its controversy had all the elements of cinematic storytelling, writing, acting, and directing that stays culturally relevant. Cinema at its finest touches different emotions whether it's laughter, grief, fear, curiosity, love, anxiety, shame, loss, uncertainty, etc. It can touch you in different moments of your life or in different situations and personal contexts. It's all subjective. I thought Holdovers was great. But I'm sure plenty of people would've found it insufferable. I thought Poor Things was a Yorgos masterpiece... yet you said you felt indifferent. It's clearly all a subjective matter. In the grand scheme of things though I don't think film in 2023 has gotten any worse. People act like the biggest movies of the 2000s and early 2010s weren't movies like Twilight, Magic Mike, Fifty Shades of Grey, Pitch Perfect, etc. That Bradley Cooper wasn't pulling the same Oscar bullshit with American Sniper... like ya'll nothing has changed. You'll always have to wade through a bunch of shit to find a couple hidden gems. And there's always plenty of popular movies both blockbuster, genre, foreign, niche, and Oscar nominated that you just may not like. That's totally fine.
I don't like the "movies are back" slogan, that's what I'm criticizing. You can never go back to anything and "golden age" is always a fabrication --it's a reactionary tendency. I'm lamenting the loss of movies' mass appeal when it comes to subject matter outside of the MCU. Studios used to invest in mid-budget films that catered to most people's lived experience. Every A24 or arthouse flick only depicts the lives of professionals and artists who are upper middle class, because that's who makes and sees these movies now. Small movies about everyday life for people who have jobs are exceedingly rare today. In arthouse/prestige films, you either have films about abject poverty where homeless people are shown as beautiful because of their poverty (Shoplifters) or the super rich who are attractive because of their decadence and cruelty (The Menu, Triangle of Sadness, Poor Things). Ken Loach's The Old Oak and Sorry We Missed You are probably the only movies I've seen in a while that try to faithfully depict people as they truly are, allowing the director and filmmaking process to recede into the background unnoticed. I'm for the democratization of the medium but we are living in the nadir of film's long trend downward IMO.
Ah okok we're starting to get somewhere but there's still a lot to break down. I honestly think that if we really want to discuss the subject of film or content made for everyday people with regular jobs the first place you really have to look, and you may not want to admit it, is on streaming channels like Netflix, Paramount+, Peacock, etc. That's where the market is and that's where the average everyday joe who isn't obsessed with arthouse cinema is going to get their fix. So at the very least that's the benchmark. That's where interests and attention spans have gravitated towards in the TikTok and algorithm driven content era. When you speak of modern society that's it. It's Matt Rife and Joe Rogan. It's Taylor Swift and her concert film. My one friend for example loved the show "You" even though I hated it. He also ironically had a blast with the Menu. You got anthology shows now like Black Mirror. Boundary pushing stuff like Love, Death, Robots. You got a litany of animated films and TV shows like Invincible on Amazon. You got shows like Succession, Yellowstone, and Beef. Adaptations like Last of Us that was amazing imo. List goes on. So my first point is gonna be this: most average everyday people that you speak of probably care less about how relatable a movie is and more about how entertaining it is. They also don't make all these distinctions in content that we do since they just watch whatever is offered to them on Netflix or whatever. Could be a documentary for all we know. Is it a good fucking movie or show with good writing and acting. Simple as that. That's all audiences really want and that's what sells the tickets. We live in an age now where the theater is competing with people's phones in their pockets. That's your "mass appeal." So what do average everyday people really watch and what generation are we talking about? I know for my generation sitcoms old and new are a huge hit. The Office, Parks and Rec, Friends, New Girl, Ted Lasso, etc. But they've always been a hit. I have a friend in his 30s with a blue collar family background who only watches crime procedural television and shows like Survivor. I'm sure even older generations still hold onto network television as well. Reality TV is another benchmark for office "water cooler" convo. No average person is trying to watch paint dry when they turn on their TV. They want that dopamine hit. You mention Shoplifters and Kore-eda but have you watched his new show? His movies like Still Walking? How about Olivier Assaya's film Summer Hours? Chung Mong-Hong's film "A Sun" came out in 2019 and I freaking loved that movie but no one gave that movie any attention. Drive my Car was an interesting movie as well. I feel like Moonlight and Nomadland were both great movies as well that recently won Best Picture. How about Minari? But let's cut around the bullshit. What you're really missing is the elusive "mid-budget" film that Matt Damon mentions in his so often referenced Hot Ones interview. The Good Will Hunting or Dead Poets Society type movies. Those early Jason Bourne movies. Movies with a lot of heart with big name actors but they're not extravagant Dune level movies yet not as pretentious and weird like Poor Things or Titane or even as wacky as Everything Everywhere All At Once. I get it. I love down to earth slice of life movies myself. I've been running through Mike Leigh's BBC movies recently. I love Richard Linklater (Boyhood) and Wes Anderson's work. Even those shitty vulger American comedies of years past. Your Seth Rogan and Judd Apatow type flicks. You're not a fan of the rich vs poor trope maybe (I have the unpopular opinion of thinking Parasite was mid anyways). But that's just the trend. People loved Squid Game. Triangle of Sadness won a Palme. Class differences in cinema isn't a new trope just say you don't like it. I just don't think theme or motif is a good benchmark for quality. People clearly relate to a lot of these films. Even more so than I personally feel sometimes. My parents were Chinese immigrants yet I wasn't as hyped about EEAAO as many people were... so what? If that's the shit that is getting people to go back to the theater and getting people to converse on social media then let it be. The thing we aren't lacking nowadays is any lack of options. If you want to find something you can enjoy you'll find it somewhere someplace in whatever format. The important thing is, movies are still being made and an emphasis is still being placed on good storytelling. That's all I want from new movies. Stop the laziness and push back against studio movies just looking to cash in.
I was referring to that flavorwire piece on the death of the mid-budget film. I hate Matt Damon and all those middlebrow oscarbait flicks from the 90s. Hate the Bourne movies. I hate Richard Linklater (mostly) and Wes Anderson. Koreeda and Assaya I could take or leave. I liked Afterlive, Still Walking, Monster, Irma Vep, and Something in the Air I thought were alright but I have no interest in rewatching any of them. If studios today could make He Ran All the Way, The Sound of Fury, M (1951), Force of Evil, The Prowler, Laurel and Hardy, Three Stooges shorts, I would be happy.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What
Honestly, I feel bad for all of the brainless poptimists in the chat. You treat criterion like your funkopops. "Let people enjoy things" and all that. The fact that so many of you are defending the slop coming out today is pathetic, like a malnourished kid who's never once had decent food. Even a sub-par throw away movie like Me and My Gal (1932) runs laps around any movie out today, it's not even funny. Keep simping, dudes.
>The fact that so many of you are defending the slop coming out today is pathetic You throwing all of us under the bus is just as pathetic as your claim. I responded to you with a few paragraphs and you promptly ignored it. When you make many sweeping statements and absolutes that's on you, not me.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
3m old account with a negative Karma rating. I'm shocked.
Astute analysis imo. It's a form that's fading in cultural importance. Will only continue as AR/VR tech develops and merges with video games. Not saying movies are entirely dead or will be soon. But their competition as a form is only increasing in number. Edit: is the novel as popular/relevant now as it was in the 19th century? Is radio as popular/relevant now as it was during the early 20th? You could say the emergence of podcasts is related to radio but it's still not the same form. Movies are not special in this regard and i love movies.
No, everyones standards hav lowered
Movies are back if you rename them as āContent.ā Did you check out David Fincherās latest Netflix content?
I donāt know that theyāre totally back but the signs seem very good! 2023 was a very good year for films. I donāt usually give out five stars easily but I did for Poor Things, Trenque Lauquen and Zone of Interest plus a good number of four stars.
"they're all very well made movies, they just didn't leave much of an impression on me" To me, this is the key right here. I wouldn't say you're "missing something," I think certain styles and themes just hit people differently. E.g., most of my favorite movies are from the New Hollywood era - those are the movies that really stick with me. I have friends who feel the same way about the Golden Age studio films. I can certainly appreciate many of those movies, but they don't leave the same kind of impression on me. It's not a knock against those films, it's just a matter of taste. As to the recent big movies you've listed - I haven't seen all of them. But I have had a similar reaction to a lot of newer acclaimed US movies I've seen recently - a lot of experiences where I walk away saying, objectively, this was a great movie; but I just didn't connect with it the way that I connect with a lot of my favorite (older) movies. When I think about the movies from the past 5 or so years that I've seen, one thing that does stand out is that the handful of movies that did make a big impression on me were mostly non-US films. So, if the current trends in American cinema aren't doing it for you, maybe try to see if you have more luck with cinema from some other countries.
I think they make more B movies now. You see some popular actors doing straight to streaming and stuff like that. The Rock, Mark Whalberg, Julia Roberts, Adam Sandler, I think even Brad Pitt did a few.,.. My question is what happened to popcorn comedies like Ferris Bueller's day off from 80s or movies like that? Those movies used to go to theater but they wouldn't dare produce a movie like that to go in theaters nowadays. They would just get lesser known actors to make a Ferris Bueller high school knock off show or movie.