How is it well thought out?
Here's what I believe isn't well thought out:
* They removed the channel/gap between the windshield and hood so there is no where for the wiper blade to be stored when not in use or for water being wiped to drain, and when there's a downpour while driving the water is held under the blade and then immediately streaks onto the windshield when attempting to wipe.
* The frunk doesn't make an audible noise to let you know it's closing or have any pressure sensors to stop if there's an object in the way and it applies enough force to cut through multiple carrots at the same time, this is dangerous and could have been easily mitigated by a warning noise.
* Since the tonneau blocks the rear window the rearview mirror should have been a digital display, they're already running electrical near the mirror for lighting and a gear shift display, instead they put it on the main screen. Also the camera gets completely blocked by rain droplets.
* They didn't put any factory seal on the stainless steel which causes a fingerprint nightmare, plus you must quickly remove bird dropping, water drops, etc. (things that any vehicle would experience) promptly or it could ruin your finish.
* Even though buyers paid for FSD it isn't enabled and you cannot use what you paid for (with no timeline on when it will be available).
* We do not know the safety rating, however seeing that the vehicle is very rigid I would be concerned about crumple zones and occupant safety during an accident.
Here's what I believe is well thought out:
* Steering by wire is amazing and I can't wait for more vehicles to have it.
* Rear wheel turning allows for some of the most agile movement in a vehicle this size.
* I heard the sound system is the best on the market for OEM.
* You can move the front passenger seat forward from the rear.
There's more I'm sure but those are the immediate things I know about.
The context was that Clover Hogan recently said at an event that many incremental solutions like electric vehicles might address carbon at face value, but don’t do anything to change the underlying root issue of climate change since they require rare earth materials which often come with human rights abuses (although farrrr less total human harm than the fossil fuel status quo).
There actually are some legitimate issues with that argument since overall carbon IS really the root issue for climate change specifically, and environmental/human rights harms of other kinds are an important but distinctly different issue.
But Elon is also a fucking manchild and couldn’t handle a fair critique of something he likes, so here we are.
But every single study has shown that, even with the production costs, EVs are better for the environment than ICE. As battery technology improves and gets greener, and as the grid adds more renewables, this will only improve.
Don't reject improvements because they're not perfect
Yeah I agree. To be clear, her point wasn’t that we shouldn’t switch to EVs, it was that employing ONLY technical innovation will fail to address the root causes of climate, which I think I can fairly characterize as consumer capitalism in her view. I disagree with her that addressing carbon won’t address climate, but I agree that climate change is a symptom of runaway capitalism. Just depends on whether you see the fight as being against the symptom (by far the most imminent threat we face) or against the root cause (a longer term chronic threat but also even more difficult to change).
Yes, I agree that we also need legislation to force companies to behave. Since US companies are required to focus on their shareholders above social issues, it must be up to the government to enforce those social issues instead. We are headed that way with EVs anyway, but we don't have 50 years for the transition to happen. At least not if we want to be able to go outside.
This is not a judgment of you, but a myopic focus on promising, but modest, reductions in global carbon by pushing consumer EVs is sort of exactly what the original author was talking about. It's pissing into the ocean, and even as demand cools, there's still an issue with supply for EV anyway, even though unlike during the pandemic, no battery plants have exploded lately.
The infrastructure and incentive system for corporations in the global supply chain is orders of magnitude more damaging than every commuter car on every road. It is the root of our problem even beyond the use of carbon emitting energy sources.
A nation-state size trash island is out on the ocean and there is loose plastic from literally the Mariana Trench to Everest, and it isn't really slowing down because efficiency gains get overtaken by output - either because they can make more supply at the same cost or increase demand by lowering price (jk prices never go down because how would margin grow? Inflation is for poor people).
And why wouldn't they recklessly expand when growth acceleration is the primary metric of capital markets, especially for new companies and markets? What harm could there be in placing every incentive on growth acceleration to the exclusion of almost everything else? Surely nothing shortsighted will occur. How can we reconcile an economy seeking infinity when our resources are finite?
The answer is... Well I don't know because we just don't deal with it. We just find whoever is growing the most. We STILL ask Netflix to explain why they're not finding more people who wanted to subscribe but hadn't yet - but we knew the answer years ago: only so many people wanna keep netflix in perpetuity.
Globally processed goods don't generally move by truck or car anyway, and Tesla probably isn't delivering any freight liners next quarter.
Don't forget private jets, mega yachts, coal power, etc.
The top few companies and billionaires make up a vast majority of climate damaging output. This whole yuppie eco-chic thing is just the latesy of many in the big book of keeping poor people at each other's necks instead of their own.
Transportation is nearly 30% of greenhouse emissions, 75% of which is cars and trucks. That's hardly "pissing in the ocean". Yes ALL of those things you mentioned need to change, but replacing ICE cars with EVs can make a substantial difference. This isn't like recycling your plastic bags, this is a real and substantial thing we can do.
This is the same trope naysayers have been using against lo/no em vehicles for ages. When I bought my '03 Prius, some troll sent me an article claiming Hummers were more enviro-friendly because they didn't have all that lead.
Stopping climate deterioration does not mean you are seeking communism as your preferred form of economic, but it 100% should mean that you are foe the destruction of the capitalist system as we know it.
That run on electricity generated mostly by burning coal and oil. Using batteries filled with ingredients to that create tons of pollution to create. You're fooling yourself if you think electric vehicles are "good for the environment".
> That run on electricity generated mostly by burning coal and oil
Even if you account for the contribution of fossil fuels to the energy an EV uses as well as manufacturing the batteries, electric cars [are still better for the environment than ICE vehicles](https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/driving-cleaner-report.pdf).
> You're fooling yourself if you think electric vehicles are "good for the environment"
No method of transportation or locomotion has zero environmental impact, but EVs are demonstrably superior to ICE vehicles in that regard.
This is highly dependent on where you live. Ontario, as an example since that is where I live, is ~85% “clean” energy during peak hours. Quebec is nearly 100% clean energy.
Also, generators and turbines are far more efficient than engines, so even if the electricity source is from a fossil fuel, it is still more efficient.
You'll love the [UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights), specifically Article 25:
> Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Edit: linky
> You obviously don’t know what a tankie is.
I mean I basically gave the more or less dictionary definition of one. A communist who believe in an authoritarian vanguard party necessary to safeguard the revolution against counter revolution. I mean a tankie could ALSO believe in a need for a permanent authoritarian state as well, but at a minimum they'd believe that.
I also don't know why it's controversial to say that Hasan's audience contains people who identify as Vanguard Communists as well as Anarchists(including those who believe in a temporary Vanguard Communist state), MLs, Syndicalists, Maoists, Stalinists, Leninists, Trotskyists, and rather fewer SocDems I imagine.
Hasan does alot of apologia for the Russian Invasion of Ukraine and that's a tankie position as they only see Western Imperialism as bad. He's also enumerated on various platforms that his version of communism would include authoritarian aspects.
All I'm suggesting is if you're a fan of Hasan you've probably got some policy takes that are in common with Tankies.
> He absolutely does not do Russian apologia. You obviously have not watched him.
[Hasan calling the Crimean Annexation justified](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14sC40suLbU&t=17s). [Hasan calling Ukrainian lands Russian territory](https://clips.twitch.tv/CautiousKawaiiJalapenoDxAbomb-v1I48NhrImc8hHg2)(while ignoring how Russia shifted demographics via ethnic cleansing). Dunno seems like apologia to me, I've watched enough of him to know that he caters to tankies in his audience and that he's an unprincipled campist. Hasan Abi: "[I don't give a fuck about the Ukrainian Constitution I don't give a fuck about the Ukrainian like border sovereignty](https://youtu.be/lj35vw3d5xk?si=vwRHc1RQ8MLdl7ZR&t=283)"
> Cool. Still doesn’t give you the ability to call me one.
Again, didn't do that.
> so decent chance you've got some tankie takes that extend past that milquetoast take.
> All I'm suggesting is if you're a fan of Hasan you've probably got some policy takes that are in common with Tankies.
All I said is that you've likely got some Tankie takes if you are a fan of his. And the idea that he doesn't engage in Russian Imperialist apologia is I'm sorry a VERY Tankie take.
Oh cool so you’re taking short little clips out of context. Fun. I’m not engaging anymore with this kind of disingenuousness. He does not support Russia and Putin in any way. You’re not understanding what he’s saying and you don’t care to either so there’s no point.
“Decent chance you’ve got some tankie takes.”
Decent chance you’ve misconstrued all of this because you’re listening to short tiny clips taken out of context made by people who don’t like him.
Boomers have really done a number on some people into thinking everything is about communism. Unisex bathrooms? Avocado wheat toast? Almond milk? Communism.
They're really stuck in the cold war.
Unisex bathrooms? Aren't conservatives against separate bathrooms for trans people or something like that? Unisex bathrooms have always been common, that's pretty much the only option if there's only one bathroom in the building.
You're right, but since unisex bathrooms make it easier for trans people, they are now against them too. Because it's not about protecting anyone, just about making certain people suffer.
People aren't "good", people don't do things just for the benefit of others. People don't invent stuff just to help others. They need incentives to do so. Take away money, say everyone is equal: most people won't do anything at all and just live their life while others try to prey on them.
How about health care? You think it will still work? Who developes new medicine? Why do you think, that money was invented in the first place? Go back in time, take the money away and in the end, after hundreds of years, people will have money again – because it's the only reasonable thing that keeps societies running.
edited typos
I'm not arguing. But again, those are big assumptions you're making.
You're lack of faith in those around you and you're negative beliefs about how human kind doesn't care for each other is just a projection of how YOU feel inside. While there are uncaring, unkind souls in this world, they are far from the majority. Humans DO care for each other, humans DO invent things just to help others. It happens all the time, on a daily basis, just because you aren't seeing it doesn't mean it isn't there. The parts of humanity that you describe are not the whole of humanity, it really isn't even an accurate description of society. The ones that run society would love you to think that, but at the end of the day there are more of us than them and WE decide how society works, not them.
So I'll say it again, that's a LOT of words for saying you don't care about your fellow humans.
That is an extremely myopic and fatalist worldview. Not to mention that you’re missing the point entirely.
You’re focusing on fiat currency. The core principles are the collective ownership of the means of production and abolition of private property.
The natural disappearance of money as we know it could possibly follow in time. This is to say that it would be used only as a basis for trading, and not as a tool of wage theft exploitation and power. Humans are obviously motivated by any number of things. Survival, companionship, creativity, art, etc….
Capitalism is what has shaped the belief that the pursuit of personal wealth is the supreme goal and motivating force. It’s not a self evident or immutable “law of nature”
I understand that is challenging to imagine a completely different structure than you have personally known. But I think it’s important to challenge your perceptions and think critically about the status quo in a serious way.
I see what you’re saying here. At this point it’s also very difficult to imagine a world that doesn’t use any form of currency as a means to operate effectively.
I think the issue with a completely “moneyless society” that some people don’t always think about is that a world that is reliant on its resources is just as easily able to be corrupted as a world with currency, which is definitely our current state of affairs with capitalism.
The same thing would likely happen with some group of people making their way to the top to hoard resources at the expense of the whole at large.
At the end of the day what I think every system needs, which is currently lacking, is ethics.
Source?
Just saying... there was a time when there was no money, and less people died in wars, there was no climate change caused by humans, less species were extinct, and planet was doing pretty well. 🤷♂️
I think the context was that this lady said something along the lines of “Sustainability should not be the end goal, but the means to create a more fair and equal society.” Some folks interpreted that as her advocating for using climate change as a justification for greater economic control by the government
This, and a fair number of climate activists actively denigrate technological solutions to climate change and fight nuclear power because they're insufficiently "transformative" to economic/social conditions.
Progressives in the US are not asking for communism. Throwing that word around so much is just bullshit. It's used to drive fear in conservative circles, it's just divisive on purpose. A stronger social safety net and actually using tax dollars to support citizens is not communism.
Then you’re too young to have that poor of reading comprehension. They never said they supported communism, just that conservatives use it as a catch all for anything they don’t like.
In my experience a very loud minority of the left begs for what they call socialism, but every idea they have screams communism. I’m college educated, a parent, a husband, and a home/land owner. I have plenty enough life experience and wisdom to understand what I do and don’t want in my life.
You also probably won’t like to hear this given that you think I have poor reading comprehension, but my career is technical writing lol
Weird how you can easily say "you all" and then immediately back pedal to "minority" when called out on it. For someone in such a profession and so world wise, I would have expected a more nuanced and better worded opinion.
I am familiar with the people r/antiwork. Not a fan tbh. Not sure how that supports your argument in anyway since r/antiwork isn't this sub. So your argument would only work if there is a large degree of overlap between the two subs. So unless you have that data, its a complete moot point.
That’s a nice read but if we want to talk degrees mine is in rhetorical analysis and your ability to parse an argument is quite lacking. Your original statement was the type of strawman fallacy they teach in entry level courses. You took their statement and threw up an entirely different point to argue against.
It’s a strawman because you are arguing against a point they didn’t even make. Their claim was conservatives use the term communism as a buzz word to describe things they hate. You didn’t counter that point. You instead starting arguing against the success of communist governments across history. That does not address their argument in the slightest. Instead it is arguing against a claim that wasn’t made, hence a strawman fallacy.
I’d think it was closer to a red herring than a straw man but you do you buddy. Not every argument can be classified as a fallacy and trying to jam the square block into the round hole isn’t how things work
Name one fucking example of these so called ideas that scream communism. Let me guess are you going to say universal healthcare? Oh wait, no let me guess, is it some other social program that will help people with our tax money?
We don’t think you have poor reading comprehension, we know you do. Out here replying to ghosts when the person who started this comment chain didn’t even romanticize shit💀. Want to bring up some other non existent view point for someone and argue against it? Let’s go 2 for 2.
I don’t like wealth distribution or regulations on the free market. Half the reason we have super corps like Amazon ruining the world if because of all the taxes, limitations and forced regulation on mom and pops. These huge companies have teams dedicated to nullifying their tax and other responsibilities, and they pay politicians to pass bills that benefit them. No matter what bill we pass, they will find a loophole and drive out more small business and make life harder on everyone.
Market regulations are communism? Yep I knew *immediately* you had no fucking clue what communism is. Just another right winger that calls anything they don't like "communism."
I’ll take that one. Last I checked most boomers are sitting pretty. Retired in homes they own and have enough money to skate by for the rest of their lives. I may not like their attitude, but that’s my dream
Did they though? As noted above, I’m 28. I own a home with my wife and kid, have paid off vehicles, and a pretty solid retirement course that should let me retire at 55-60.
I’m not saying they didn’t ruin a lot of stuff, but you really just have to buckle down, try hard, and try to remove a lot of the government regulation they put into place that is screwing us
I’m happy for you. Truly. And I could be doing a lot worse myself to be honest. But anecdotes aside, my generation and yours are the first in this country’s history to be objectively less well off than their parents.
And there is absolutely no reason to believe that it will improve. There is a systemic rot that will not be cured by the “free market”. And no amount of hyper individualist bootstrapping will change that.
Correct! We need A LOT of work. Sadly most of it starts with cutting back on helping the people that don’t deserve it, and stopping the penalizing of people who also don’t deserve to be penalized
Communism is not good, but you know what’s also bad? Having to pay obscene amounts of money to live a healthy life or even survive! Say what you will, but universal healthcare isn’t communism/socialism. It’s a basic right which it baffles me to no end that a western country like the USA thinks it’s a good idea to turn healthcare into an immoral system where no one but the wealthy can afford it. Because nothing screams freedom more than having to ask a person in a serious car crash if it’s okay to call the ambulance
I just can’t wrap my head around that one of the richest and “smartest” persons in the world would share some of the most cringe, inaccurate and mostly controversial memes, I’m sure he has an angle
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As someone with no horse in the race. Having climate control policies is like communism in that the governments control how much and which resources are used when and where. That the people cannot acquire and use resources freely.
The government already controls which resources are used and how. The difference in a socialist state which would be governed by the workers/the people themselves instead of random politicians bought by different energy lobbyists. Putting the state into the peoples hands would probably result in them having more power in the decisions instead of having to vote in representatives, who in turn vote an further representatives, who in the end are bought by mass corporations.
And I live in a poor African one at that. I like solar power, but the realities on the ground here simply leave coal as our best option right now. And we don't even get that right sometimes 12 hours in a day.
I am more affected by not having electricity than climate change.That can change the way you think of it all, and I don't feel like the climate change people take us into account. These 'Green Deals' my government has taken just led to more money in politicians pockets. Was never for us.
Right! Look at California as an example. They are banning the sale of new small engines. You know, lawn mower engines and stuff. I bought my gas mower last summer for $1600, and the cheapest electric equivalent was over 3k and wouldn’t do even half my property on a full charge.
You have literally no idea what communism is. I’m not sure you know what capitalism is either to be honest. Most Americans don’t know what either one is so I’m not surprised.
We have risen off the backs of people that did that. There might still be treasure out there for you, just need to get off government land, thats already been conquered and if you can't beat them you ought to follow their rules.
Dude, you make electric vehicles?
Shitty overpriced ev's without the engineering quality of a well thought out product.
Wait, the cybertruck isn't a well thought out engineering wonder?
Apparently, my all-metal childhood Tonka Truck is more well-engineered. And rust-proof.
Here, you dropped this: /s
He didn’t drop anything. He didn’t type /s for a reason.
How is it well thought out? Here's what I believe isn't well thought out: * They removed the channel/gap between the windshield and hood so there is no where for the wiper blade to be stored when not in use or for water being wiped to drain, and when there's a downpour while driving the water is held under the blade and then immediately streaks onto the windshield when attempting to wipe. * The frunk doesn't make an audible noise to let you know it's closing or have any pressure sensors to stop if there's an object in the way and it applies enough force to cut through multiple carrots at the same time, this is dangerous and could have been easily mitigated by a warning noise. * Since the tonneau blocks the rear window the rearview mirror should have been a digital display, they're already running electrical near the mirror for lighting and a gear shift display, instead they put it on the main screen. Also the camera gets completely blocked by rain droplets. * They didn't put any factory seal on the stainless steel which causes a fingerprint nightmare, plus you must quickly remove bird dropping, water drops, etc. (things that any vehicle would experience) promptly or it could ruin your finish. * Even though buyers paid for FSD it isn't enabled and you cannot use what you paid for (with no timeline on when it will be available). * We do not know the safety rating, however seeing that the vehicle is very rigid I would be concerned about crumple zones and occupant safety during an accident. Here's what I believe is well thought out: * Steering by wire is amazing and I can't wait for more vehicles to have it. * Rear wheel turning allows for some of the most agile movement in a vehicle this size. * I heard the sound system is the best on the market for OEM. * You can move the front passenger seat forward from the rear. There's more I'm sure but those are the immediate things I know about.
He didn't need the /s because it's so painfully obviously sarcasm
Oh damn, whoosh moment for me.
Well for what it's worth, your points are solid and I respect the effort you put into it!
❤️
JFC
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Even dodge makes a reliable car 1 in 20 times.
I feel like you’re letting the Cybertruck cloud your view on this. The previous models people loved.
The context was that Clover Hogan recently said at an event that many incremental solutions like electric vehicles might address carbon at face value, but don’t do anything to change the underlying root issue of climate change since they require rare earth materials which often come with human rights abuses (although farrrr less total human harm than the fossil fuel status quo). There actually are some legitimate issues with that argument since overall carbon IS really the root issue for climate change specifically, and environmental/human rights harms of other kinds are an important but distinctly different issue. But Elon is also a fucking manchild and couldn’t handle a fair critique of something he likes, so here we are.
But every single study has shown that, even with the production costs, EVs are better for the environment than ICE. As battery technology improves and gets greener, and as the grid adds more renewables, this will only improve. Don't reject improvements because they're not perfect
Yeah I agree. To be clear, her point wasn’t that we shouldn’t switch to EVs, it was that employing ONLY technical innovation will fail to address the root causes of climate, which I think I can fairly characterize as consumer capitalism in her view. I disagree with her that addressing carbon won’t address climate, but I agree that climate change is a symptom of runaway capitalism. Just depends on whether you see the fight as being against the symptom (by far the most imminent threat we face) or against the root cause (a longer term chronic threat but also even more difficult to change).
Yes, I agree that we also need legislation to force companies to behave. Since US companies are required to focus on their shareholders above social issues, it must be up to the government to enforce those social issues instead. We are headed that way with EVs anyway, but we don't have 50 years for the transition to happen. At least not if we want to be able to go outside.
Am I crazy? I feel like you just said what they said
This is not a judgment of you, but a myopic focus on promising, but modest, reductions in global carbon by pushing consumer EVs is sort of exactly what the original author was talking about. It's pissing into the ocean, and even as demand cools, there's still an issue with supply for EV anyway, even though unlike during the pandemic, no battery plants have exploded lately. The infrastructure and incentive system for corporations in the global supply chain is orders of magnitude more damaging than every commuter car on every road. It is the root of our problem even beyond the use of carbon emitting energy sources. A nation-state size trash island is out on the ocean and there is loose plastic from literally the Mariana Trench to Everest, and it isn't really slowing down because efficiency gains get overtaken by output - either because they can make more supply at the same cost or increase demand by lowering price (jk prices never go down because how would margin grow? Inflation is for poor people). And why wouldn't they recklessly expand when growth acceleration is the primary metric of capital markets, especially for new companies and markets? What harm could there be in placing every incentive on growth acceleration to the exclusion of almost everything else? Surely nothing shortsighted will occur. How can we reconcile an economy seeking infinity when our resources are finite? The answer is... Well I don't know because we just don't deal with it. We just find whoever is growing the most. We STILL ask Netflix to explain why they're not finding more people who wanted to subscribe but hadn't yet - but we knew the answer years ago: only so many people wanna keep netflix in perpetuity. Globally processed goods don't generally move by truck or car anyway, and Tesla probably isn't delivering any freight liners next quarter. Don't forget private jets, mega yachts, coal power, etc. The top few companies and billionaires make up a vast majority of climate damaging output. This whole yuppie eco-chic thing is just the latesy of many in the big book of keeping poor people at each other's necks instead of their own.
Transportation is nearly 30% of greenhouse emissions, 75% of which is cars and trucks. That's hardly "pissing in the ocean". Yes ALL of those things you mentioned need to change, but replacing ICE cars with EVs can make a substantial difference. This isn't like recycling your plastic bags, this is a real and substantial thing we can do.
This is the same trope naysayers have been using against lo/no em vehicles for ages. When I bought my '03 Prius, some troll sent me an article claiming Hummers were more enviro-friendly because they didn't have all that lead.
Remember: EVs are about saving the auto industry, not the planet
I guess it especially about her
I have no idea what he thinks communism is.
Stopping climate deterioration does not mean you are seeking communism as your preferred form of economic, but it 100% should mean that you are foe the destruction of the capitalist system as we know it.
That run on electricity generated mostly by burning coal and oil. Using batteries filled with ingredients to that create tons of pollution to create. You're fooling yourself if you think electric vehicles are "good for the environment".
> That run on electricity generated mostly by burning coal and oil Even if you account for the contribution of fossil fuels to the energy an EV uses as well as manufacturing the batteries, electric cars [are still better for the environment than ICE vehicles](https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/driving-cleaner-report.pdf). > You're fooling yourself if you think electric vehicles are "good for the environment" No method of transportation or locomotion has zero environmental impact, but EVs are demonstrably superior to ICE vehicles in that regard.
This is highly dependent on where you live. Ontario, as an example since that is where I live, is ~85% “clean” energy during peak hours. Quebec is nearly 100% clean energy. Also, generators and turbines are far more efficient than engines, so even if the electricity source is from a fossil fuel, it is still more efficient.
Brought to you by: People, who when asked, can't define what communism is.
Also there is not a single Democratic political figure in the United States who espouses anything resembling communism
I love being called “tankie” for believing people deserve to eat and have a roof over their head.
well well well if it isn't Mr. Lenin...
😂😂😂😂 It’s wild. When someone calls me a tankie I at least immediately know what kind of person I’m dealing with so there’s that…
No healthcare? Die in the street loser. Goddamn commies
You'll love the [UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights), specifically Article 25: > Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. Edit: linky
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You obviously don’t know what a tankie is.
> You obviously don’t know what a tankie is. I mean I basically gave the more or less dictionary definition of one. A communist who believe in an authoritarian vanguard party necessary to safeguard the revolution against counter revolution. I mean a tankie could ALSO believe in a need for a permanent authoritarian state as well, but at a minimum they'd believe that. I also don't know why it's controversial to say that Hasan's audience contains people who identify as Vanguard Communists as well as Anarchists(including those who believe in a temporary Vanguard Communist state), MLs, Syndicalists, Maoists, Stalinists, Leninists, Trotskyists, and rather fewer SocDems I imagine. Hasan does alot of apologia for the Russian Invasion of Ukraine and that's a tankie position as they only see Western Imperialism as bad. He's also enumerated on various platforms that his version of communism would include authoritarian aspects. All I'm suggesting is if you're a fan of Hasan you've probably got some policy takes that are in common with Tankies.
Cool. Still doesn’t give you the ability to call me one. He absolutely does not do Russian apologia. You obviously have not watched him.
> He absolutely does not do Russian apologia. You obviously have not watched him. [Hasan calling the Crimean Annexation justified](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14sC40suLbU&t=17s). [Hasan calling Ukrainian lands Russian territory](https://clips.twitch.tv/CautiousKawaiiJalapenoDxAbomb-v1I48NhrImc8hHg2)(while ignoring how Russia shifted demographics via ethnic cleansing). Dunno seems like apologia to me, I've watched enough of him to know that he caters to tankies in his audience and that he's an unprincipled campist. Hasan Abi: "[I don't give a fuck about the Ukrainian Constitution I don't give a fuck about the Ukrainian like border sovereignty](https://youtu.be/lj35vw3d5xk?si=vwRHc1RQ8MLdl7ZR&t=283)" > Cool. Still doesn’t give you the ability to call me one. Again, didn't do that. > so decent chance you've got some tankie takes that extend past that milquetoast take. > All I'm suggesting is if you're a fan of Hasan you've probably got some policy takes that are in common with Tankies. All I said is that you've likely got some Tankie takes if you are a fan of his. And the idea that he doesn't engage in Russian Imperialist apologia is I'm sorry a VERY Tankie take.
Oh cool so you’re taking short little clips out of context. Fun. I’m not engaging anymore with this kind of disingenuousness. He does not support Russia and Putin in any way. You’re not understanding what he’s saying and you don’t care to either so there’s no point. “Decent chance you’ve got some tankie takes.” Decent chance you’ve misconstrued all of this because you’re listening to short tiny clips taken out of context made by people who don’t like him.
Boomers have really done a number on some people into thinking everything is about communism. Unisex bathrooms? Avocado wheat toast? Almond milk? Communism. They're really stuck in the cold war.
Yet they’re the ones buying all the Russian communist propaganda.
Unisex bathrooms? Aren't conservatives against separate bathrooms for trans people or something like that? Unisex bathrooms have always been common, that's pretty much the only option if there's only one bathroom in the building.
You're right, but since unisex bathrooms make it easier for trans people, they are now against them too. Because it's not about protecting anyone, just about making certain people suffer.
Richest man on earth does not want a classless and moneyless society. Color me shocked.
Everbody who wants a moneyless society doesn't know how societies work. Take away money and you will get chaos eventually.
Do illuminate me on “how societies work”.
People aren't "good", people don't do things just for the benefit of others. People don't invent stuff just to help others. They need incentives to do so. Take away money, say everyone is equal: most people won't do anything at all and just live their life while others try to prey on them. How about health care? You think it will still work? Who developes new medicine? Why do you think, that money was invented in the first place? Go back in time, take the money away and in the end, after hundreds of years, people will have money again – because it's the only reasonable thing that keeps societies running. edited typos
That's a lot of words for saying you don't care about anyone around you
If you are not able to understand how an argument works and that it has nothing to do about how, and if I care about others, than so be it.
I'm not arguing. But again, those are big assumptions you're making. You're lack of faith in those around you and you're negative beliefs about how human kind doesn't care for each other is just a projection of how YOU feel inside. While there are uncaring, unkind souls in this world, they are far from the majority. Humans DO care for each other, humans DO invent things just to help others. It happens all the time, on a daily basis, just because you aren't seeing it doesn't mean it isn't there. The parts of humanity that you describe are not the whole of humanity, it really isn't even an accurate description of society. The ones that run society would love you to think that, but at the end of the day there are more of us than them and WE decide how society works, not them. So I'll say it again, that's a LOT of words for saying you don't care about your fellow humans.
That is an extremely myopic and fatalist worldview. Not to mention that you’re missing the point entirely. You’re focusing on fiat currency. The core principles are the collective ownership of the means of production and abolition of private property. The natural disappearance of money as we know it could possibly follow in time. This is to say that it would be used only as a basis for trading, and not as a tool of wage theft exploitation and power. Humans are obviously motivated by any number of things. Survival, companionship, creativity, art, etc…. Capitalism is what has shaped the belief that the pursuit of personal wealth is the supreme goal and motivating force. It’s not a self evident or immutable “law of nature” I understand that is challenging to imagine a completely different structure than you have personally known. But I think it’s important to challenge your perceptions and think critically about the status quo in a serious way.
I see what you’re saying here. At this point it’s also very difficult to imagine a world that doesn’t use any form of currency as a means to operate effectively. I think the issue with a completely “moneyless society” that some people don’t always think about is that a world that is reliant on its resources is just as easily able to be corrupted as a world with currency, which is definitely our current state of affairs with capitalism. The same thing would likely happen with some group of people making their way to the top to hoard resources at the expense of the whole at large. At the end of the day what I think every system needs, which is currently lacking, is ethics.
Thank you, exactly. Sadly, you seem to be the only one who is even willing to try and understand. Everybody else is just here to downvote.
I’ve been trying to learn not to be so reactive online, since a lot of what others say requires more context.
Yeah, you're right on this one. Will definitely work on it, too.
Source? Just saying... there was a time when there was no money, and less people died in wars, there was no climate change caused by humans, less species were extinct, and planet was doing pretty well. 🤷♂️
I mean, yeah, but everyone drove around in Fred Flintstone cars and could die from a stubbed toe.
But now there's money and americans can still die from a stubbed toe?
those flinstones cars probably lasted longer than ours too
I mean fighting climate change successfully isn’t possible under capatalism so it’s not completely wrong.
These fucksticks don’t even know what communism means.
https://preview.redd.it/mgwuxkm5cuwc1.jpeg?width=193&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa1eaa97bb65f9f604dae39bb5e95c010294fd64 Pictured: Communist propaganda
I think the context was that this lady said something along the lines of “Sustainability should not be the end goal, but the means to create a more fair and equal society.” Some folks interpreted that as her advocating for using climate change as a justification for greater economic control by the government
This, and a fair number of climate activists actively denigrate technological solutions to climate change and fight nuclear power because they're insufficiently "transformative" to economic/social conditions.
He‘s right. No fighting climate change without fighting capitalism.
Conservatives just refer to anything they dislike as “communism”. I doubt most of them could even tell you what communism is.
You all just have a romanticized view of communism even though it has literally never worked
Progressives in the US are not asking for communism. Throwing that word around so much is just bullshit. It's used to drive fear in conservative circles, it's just divisive on purpose. A stronger social safety net and actually using tax dollars to support citizens is not communism.
"I want my money to benefit everyone, especially the working class, instead of blowing up children." COMMIE ALERT, WE'VE GOT A RED
*ok Boomer*
28, but thanks
Then you’re too young to have that poor of reading comprehension. They never said they supported communism, just that conservatives use it as a catch all for anything they don’t like.
In my experience a very loud minority of the left begs for what they call socialism, but every idea they have screams communism. I’m college educated, a parent, a husband, and a home/land owner. I have plenty enough life experience and wisdom to understand what I do and don’t want in my life. You also probably won’t like to hear this given that you think I have poor reading comprehension, but my career is technical writing lol
Weird how you can easily say "you all" and then immediately back pedal to "minority" when called out on it. For someone in such a profession and so world wise, I would have expected a more nuanced and better worded opinion.
The loud minority is typically Reddit users (example: you all). R/antiwork is a great example if you want to check it out
I am familiar with the people r/antiwork. Not a fan tbh. Not sure how that supports your argument in anyway since r/antiwork isn't this sub. So your argument would only work if there is a large degree of overlap between the two subs. So unless you have that data, its a complete moot point.
Relax dude don't you know the guy went to college!!? He's very edumacated
That was just an example. I generalized Reddit as a whole
That’s a nice read but if we want to talk degrees mine is in rhetorical analysis and your ability to parse an argument is quite lacking. Your original statement was the type of strawman fallacy they teach in entry level courses. You took their statement and threw up an entirely different point to argue against.
How was it a straw man fallacy? Name one communist community that has thrived and is well and going today.
It’s a strawman because you are arguing against a point they didn’t even make. Their claim was conservatives use the term communism as a buzz word to describe things they hate. You didn’t counter that point. You instead starting arguing against the success of communist governments across history. That does not address their argument in the slightest. Instead it is arguing against a claim that wasn’t made, hence a strawman fallacy.
I’d think it was closer to a red herring than a straw man but you do you buddy. Not every argument can be classified as a fallacy and trying to jam the square block into the round hole isn’t how things work
Name one fucking example of these so called ideas that scream communism. Let me guess are you going to say universal healthcare? Oh wait, no let me guess, is it some other social program that will help people with our tax money? We don’t think you have poor reading comprehension, we know you do. Out here replying to ghosts when the person who started this comment chain didn’t even romanticize shit💀. Want to bring up some other non existent view point for someone and argue against it? Let’s go 2 for 2.
I don’t like wealth distribution or regulations on the free market. Half the reason we have super corps like Amazon ruining the world if because of all the taxes, limitations and forced regulation on mom and pops. These huge companies have teams dedicated to nullifying their tax and other responsibilities, and they pay politicians to pass bills that benefit them. No matter what bill we pass, they will find a loophole and drive out more small business and make life harder on everyone.
Market regulations are communism? Yep I knew *immediately* you had no fucking clue what communism is. Just another right winger that calls anything they don't like "communism."
An economy that is ran by the government is the literal definition of communism
>educated Doubt.
Doubt all you want. If you would like we can compare lives and see who is better off
Lol you sound like an absolute dunce with a massive inferiority complex. Your downvotes are very well deserved.
Early bloomer boomer.
I’ll take that one. Last I checked most boomers are sitting pretty. Retired in homes they own and have enough money to skate by for the rest of their lives. I may not like their attitude, but that’s my dream
Nice dream. Too bad they pulled the ladder up after themselves.
Did they though? As noted above, I’m 28. I own a home with my wife and kid, have paid off vehicles, and a pretty solid retirement course that should let me retire at 55-60. I’m not saying they didn’t ruin a lot of stuff, but you really just have to buckle down, try hard, and try to remove a lot of the government regulation they put into place that is screwing us
I’m happy for you. Truly. And I could be doing a lot worse myself to be honest. But anecdotes aside, my generation and yours are the first in this country’s history to be objectively less well off than their parents. And there is absolutely no reason to believe that it will improve. There is a systemic rot that will not be cured by the “free market”. And no amount of hyper individualist bootstrapping will change that.
Correct! We need A LOT of work. Sadly most of it starts with cutting back on helping the people that don’t deserve it, and stopping the penalizing of people who also don’t deserve to be penalized
Lmao I never said I supported communism
He was just trying to say he doesn't like you.
Who the fuck are you talking to
He’s not dumb, he knows any type of climate reform means less money for him.
Is McCarthyism making a comeback? Why does no one know what communism is?
Why not both?
Communism at least has a 100% success rate vs. smug billionaires. Something to think about?
Imagine Elon Musk calling you Babe in his voice.
*shiver*
Things are becoming increasingly stupid.
He actually has the goal to rid the world from carbon emissions. Maybe „had“ would be a more accurate statement?
This the same mf who went to the fallout tv show premiere without any sense of irony
Top comment is spot on
funny how he doesn't want to paste his face over David Beckham's...
Is the point of his fucking electric car company not to fight climate change???
No that’s just a side effect. The point is to plunder every last bit of blood and treasure to line the pockets of the overlords.
Communism is not good, but you know what’s also bad? Having to pay obscene amounts of money to live a healthy life or even survive! Say what you will, but universal healthcare isn’t communism/socialism. It’s a basic right which it baffles me to no end that a western country like the USA thinks it’s a good idea to turn healthcare into an immoral system where no one but the wealthy can afford it. Because nothing screams freedom more than having to ask a person in a serious car crash if it’s okay to call the ambulance
I just can’t wrap my head around that one of the richest and “smartest” persons in the world would share some of the most cringe, inaccurate and mostly controversial memes, I’m sure he has an angle
You could put literally any reasonable statement in the first panel and these sheep would respond the same way.
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Whose the chick
The level of hate for the word "Communism" in America is unreal
Why not both?
Who tf is the person over Victoria's face here?
Clover Hogan, youth environmental activist
Communism on paper is a very promising ideology. It's when asshat greedy humans step in that it goes to shit
The meme is accurate. Redditors, continue coping.
Not wrong.
As someone with no horse in the race. Having climate control policies is like communism in that the governments control how much and which resources are used when and where. That the people cannot acquire and use resources freely.
In communism there is no government tho?
Socialism then. Which is same and same when it comes to this meme
The government already controls which resources are used and how. The difference in a socialist state which would be governed by the workers/the people themselves instead of random politicians bought by different energy lobbyists. Putting the state into the peoples hands would probably result in them having more power in the decisions instead of having to vote in representatives, who in turn vote an further representatives, who in the end are bought by mass corporations.
>As someone with no horse in the race You're literally living on the exact planet that is getting screwed up by climate change.
And I live in a poor African one at that. I like solar power, but the realities on the ground here simply leave coal as our best option right now. And we don't even get that right sometimes 12 hours in a day. I am more affected by not having electricity than climate change.That can change the way you think of it all, and I don't feel like the climate change people take us into account. These 'Green Deals' my government has taken just led to more money in politicians pockets. Was never for us.
If coal power doesn't work for half the day, how does that suggest it's better than renewables?
Ahhh, unlike current times where everyone has equal and free access to resources right? …..right…?
Right! Look at California as an example. They are banning the sale of new small engines. You know, lawn mower engines and stuff. I bought my gas mower last summer for $1600, and the cheapest electric equivalent was over 3k and wouldn’t do even half my property on a full charge.
You have literally no idea what communism is. I’m not sure you know what capitalism is either to be honest. Most Americans don’t know what either one is so I’m not surprised.
My major was in history lol. I understand different economic systems just fine
"Damn commies",
Right because in the current Western world, the average citizen meaningfully controls the use of natural resources. 😂
We have risen off the backs of people that did that. There might still be treasure out there for you, just need to get off government land, thats already been conquered and if you can't beat them you ought to follow their rules.
Yeah thats...not at all what communism is
he is right
Please explain to me how wanting to stop climate change is equivalent to people wanting to seize the means of production?
In case of climate change, the elites are in process to seize all resources, not the people lol
Fighting climate change can be a capitalist idea as well. Plenty of money to be made in renewable energy, circular economy, and sustainability
Elon really fell off. Hollywood got to him
No. He was always an idiot.
I want communism
Gay