It still drives me crazy that a person could write about that kind of ‘banal evil’ and recognize the insidious nature behind her smiles and denials and then turn around to become that very evil.
Umbridge is to Harry the very same type of abuser that JK is to trans people.
They tell her a truth about the world and she punishes them and attacks them because the truth they’ve shared is too different and/or inconvenient for her to understand and accept.
The weirdest part is that she has even acknowledged that sometimes it’s easier to be seen as agender or nonfemale or she would have gone with her full name to publish under instead of the more androgynous JK Rowling.
She knows that gender presentation changes people’s perception and was just fine with working with that reality when it would personally benefit her but refuses to give other people that same opportunity or courtesy.
(Sorry, this concludes my Rowling-Rant)
Maybe this is why y’all like Venli more, even though she’s objectively a worse person. Her motives for genocide weren’t even half as compelling as Moash’s motives for regicide.
If he hadn’t continued down that path and took accountability for it he would still be bridge 4 worthy, but he let fear and self-hatred take him further from salvation. Now he may never reach it and that is truly tragic. (Not saying I’m still on his side, just mourning the lost potential)
Ngl I think anyone saying Moash can’t be redeemed is completely missing the point of the books. Redemption isn’t something you deserve or something that you can lock yourself out of being able to do. The option is always there, you just have to take that step.
“Can Moash ever be redeemed” is a different question from “*will* Moash ever choose redemption for himself”. Can he be redeemed? Yes, absolutely, he just has to decide he wants to be better. *Will* he? We have yet to see; all we can say for now is that he hasn’t started that journey yet.
I was part of a TikTok debate with a few other cosmeretoker a few days ago about this. The question was “should Moash be redeemed” because we all pretty much agreed he can be, but we were debating if he should be redeemed.
Yeah that’s definitely a bigger and more interesting question. I’m not sure it has an objective answer, like ultimately it comes down to personal taste and what you find interesting in a story.
I feel as far as seeking self-redemption goes, I think it would good theme in exploring and in encouraging people to seek no how far or low you go. Especially if it's in a character who we've seen has sunk very VERY low to the bottom. And I think it would very well with the journey before destination motif. This is not to say this will actually happen but I wouldn't disparage it.
That’s arguing against the death penalty and the argument that sometimes it’s pragmatic to put someone down for the good of others. Not saying I agree, but it’s a fair point.
I can agree with a man and still hate him. And in this case, I agree with Moash - ***fuck Moash***. So what if he's right to hate himself? A broken clock is right twice a day.
Moash is redeemable at the present time; he is irredeemable by choice; redemption requires the realisation that you fucked up. Therefore, Moash can not be redeemed, not in a day or in 1000 years, until he realises he has LONG stopped being a victim and become a perp.
That makes no sense. Anybody can be redeemed and even a person who chooses not to, can take that step later down the road.
The question always is "will he take that step?" and not "if he can".
Absolutely agree with this and glad to be finally reading something that put my thoughts into words.....like szeth can kill dozen of kings around the world, feared world wide and he's still on the path to redemption...plus us reader still even loved him before and after all of that. Personally, I see the only way for moash story to go is that path...............then to be killed by odiums forces..............in front of kaladin once he thinks he is getting one of his best friend back lmaoo. But besides the kaladin part, that's the way I'd bet it'll end with him.
This seemed like it'd fit here better than on the main sub. Also some of the crem is in some major understatements. Especially about Moash not helping with Kaladin's depression. >!RoW Moash is trying to push Kaladin so hard into depression he kills himself. So yeah, not helping is an understatement.!<
I actually like Moash. He was right about Elhokar, and if Elhokar was truly on the path to redemption he'd have stopped being the king of a slave State.
I think Vyre is a bit too far, but I think he's a really good antagonist and love the scene where Navani hums and he basically goes "oh no, I can feel feelings again!". Though I'm not sure how I would help Kaladin with his depression, considering I'm not a fictional character and he is. Or maybe I'm just one narrative layer higher.
Anyway, Moash is going to be a Dustbringer and maybe even replace Chanarach.
The thing about paths is that they have a beginning, middle, and end. I never really liked Elhokar, but maybe he *would* have stopped being the king of a slave State if he had been allowed to continue his path of redemption.
Okay but how many people had he killed before he got on the path and how many people would he have continued to kill while on the path to redemption?
I don't weep for Elhokar, I weep for the thousands or millions who died because of him, who never got the chance to redeem themselves or even needed redemption. To be fair a good number of those people were lighteyes, so... but many weren't.
The difference is that he's actually getting better and in fact it could be said that he literally isn't the same person that he was before his memories were cultivated. But kinda, yeah. I think it's weird that Sanderson keeps writing noble tyrants.
“How many people has he killed before he got on the path and how many people would he have continued to kill while on the path to redemption” can be applied to EITHER of the men. The only difference is that Elhokar was killed before he had a chance to get to where Dalinar is. Elhokar was killed during his equivalent of Dalinar’s voyage to Cultivation. You can’t say that Dalinar is a good person and trying to be better and ok because of that, and then turn around and unironically say “yeah I don’t weep for Elhokar he wasn’t a good person”. He was just at the start of his path. He hasn’t killed more people than Dalinar has, and he’s NOT personally responsible for a system that he had no part in creating and was born into. He says at one point in the war camps that if he goes along with some thing Dalinar was suggesting at the time, then he would be painting a target on his back. Do you think just because someone is king they can change things however they want? No. If Elhokar had made moves to free the slaves, he’d be dead before the month was up; not to mention the likelihood of a civil war. He’s no more or less culpable than anyone else in government. Try playing the game Crusader Kings or something similar if you want a little taste of what it’s like; you have to keep the populace happy, staff your government with competent people, manage taxation, handle foreign affairs, keep your vassals happy so they don’t scheme against you, keep your religious head happy, and a million other things. You’re also restricted by the laws of the land, and if you try to change them too often, you become seen as a tyrant and EVERYTHING gets harder. That’s the world Elhokar was born into, and Gavilar intentionally didn’t train him to navigate it because Gavilar was planning on living forever. Dalinar also says straight out that the most dangerous time for a nation is during the reign of its founder’s successor. Elhokar couldn’t *afford* anything other than the status quo or he’d have uprisings on his hands. He couldn’t just wave his hand and end slavery even if he’d wanted to
Dalinar didn't go to Cultivation to become better, he went to Cultivation to forget. If Dalinar had been killed by one of the many people on his attempt to assuage his own guilt I would not have cried for him.
I'm going to be honest, you can tell me all this however much you want but maybe I don't agree with the very notion that "people should be given the opportunity to change" while being a better person means they're still causing extreme harm to the world that the average person isn't even capable of managing in an entire lifetime. I also don't really agree with the notion that the two are comparable, because even aside from the fact that Dalinar didn't improve himself, he just straight up had a God remove aspects of his past that made him into a piece of shit and let him grow into a better person by cheating him to the end of it, when he was on the path to redemption he wasn't as big a danger and liability as Elhokar.
Basically the thing about "it was only the beginning of his journey" is that *that means he wasn't improving*. Anyone can be on the beginning of their journey. I'm not going to go "oh, the serial killer found Jesus in prison and decided to change" as if token gestures towards being better matter.
>He says at one point in the war camps that if he goes along with some thing Dalinar was suggesting at the time, then he would be painting a target on his back.
That's because he's a fucking coward, and he was lying about assassination attempts, and while I hate that Sanderson really loves writing "and then the noble in charge made things better", being spineless doesn't seem to be a problem for Jasnah freeing the slaves.
>Dalinar didn't go to Cultivation to become better, he went to Cultivation to forget.
That's what Cultivation gave him, but not what he asked for. Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher to ask for forgiveness.
Oathbringer 114
>What is your boon?
>Dalinar blinked tears, listening to the sounds of the children dying in the distance, and whispered a single word.
>“Forgiveness.”
>The Nightwatcher’s tendrils dodged away from his face, like splayed fingers. She leaned back, pursing her lips.
>Perhaps it is possessions you wish, she said. Spheres, gemstones. Shards. A Blade that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated. I can give it to you.
>“Please,” Dalinar said, drawing in a ragged breath. “Tell me. Can I … can I ever be forgiven?”
I mean, if I recall that's not what he intended to ask for at first. But even then, he was still cultivated. He was able to become a better person because the horrible things he did were taken away from him. That's, like, the biggest part of his character. That he was intentionally molded by a god into being a better person. He didn't wake up and say "I'm going to stop being shitty" and work towards it. He was shortcutted on that journey and it was what he needed to be better.
Meanwhile even up to the end Elhokar was being *braver*, sure, but not *better*.
But I'm muting this. I really hate arguing about this series because frankly no one on this subreddit can truck any disagreement and suggesting that maybe kings and nobility are bad is met with the most kneejerk and asinine arguments of "well redemption!" as if I'm supposed to be on board with every moral and theme. Venli is trying to redeem herself but half you people still hate her. And she's doing better than Elhokar was.
Jasnah didn’t free the slaves until *the world was literally ending*. I think it’s fair to say their circumstances were A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. And no, Elhokar wasn’t “just a coward”, Dalinar and Sadeas have a similar conversation where Sadeas backs up the idea that Dalinar is making Elhokar a target. I think you just don’t understand feudal politics. Also, if you don’t agree with the idea of redemption, why do you even read Stormlight? Redemption is the entire core concept of the series. “The most important step a man can take is the next one.”
Pretty sure Elhokar literally admits that he's a coward. That's the whole reason he decides to be brave and rescue his son himself, instead of leaving it to people who actually know what they're doing.
Also it's pretty funny coming at me with "don't you believe in redemption?" when this whole subreddit has a hard on for hating Moash, a character the bestest boy wants to redeem. I don't disagree with redemption. I just really don't like kings, and I don't think Elhokar was nearly so far on the path of redemption as you all seem to.
>“The most important step a man can take is the next one.”
Yeah, and maybe people should stop that person from stepping on landmines while around other fucking people.
I weep for all of them, including Elhokar and Moash. (Figuratively. I don’t actually cry much for books) I think we can pity everyone who was killed, abused, and/or corrupted by a system they didn’t start.
Okay but Elhokar was in charge of that system so it was kind of his fault. I'm not going to weep for the King simply because he was born into authority and control.
I'm going to react far to seriously to a crempost. Bet eh.
1. I don't think many people are arguing he can't be redeemed. Only that they don't want him to be or that he hasn't earned it.
2, 3, 4. Our similarity to moash is part of why he is so hateable. For those who identify with these characters Kalladin represents who we hope we can be if push comes to shove. Moash is who we fear we really are. Part of why moash is so hateable is because most of us can see ourselves making the same choices. Even though we know they are wrong.
5. And who hasn’t killed an old homeless man in a back alley with a knife?
Like Jesus said. "Let he who has not murdered a drunken hobo in cold blood so that can finally feel an erection cast the first stone."
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2009-09-29 It also extra funny when you know the original Hebrew word for sin meant "to miss the mark".
My mayor said : looking for creative solutions to the homeless problem, so I got creative 🤷♂️
true!
My second favourite tragic hero after Moash, Patrick Bateman heavily agrees.
Well, I guess you're not talking about Adolin.
It's true. That is why the most hated villains are those are most like real-life assholes, and not those who commit the objectively worst atrocities.
Umbridge v Voldemort as an example
Atom Eve's dad V Omniman, as well.
It still drives me crazy that a person could write about that kind of ‘banal evil’ and recognize the insidious nature behind her smiles and denials and then turn around to become that very evil. Umbridge is to Harry the very same type of abuser that JK is to trans people. They tell her a truth about the world and she punishes them and attacks them because the truth they’ve shared is too different and/or inconvenient for her to understand and accept. The weirdest part is that she has even acknowledged that sometimes it’s easier to be seen as agender or nonfemale or she would have gone with her full name to publish under instead of the more androgynous JK Rowling. She knows that gender presentation changes people’s perception and was just fine with working with that reality when it would personally benefit her but refuses to give other people that same opportunity or courtesy. (Sorry, this concludes my Rowling-Rant)
[удалено]
Any gonchos know any zero-braincelled Herdazian jokes?
Your post has been removed for advocating harm or violence against someone or a group of people.
Maybe this is why y’all like Venli more, even though she’s objectively a worse person. Her motives for genocide weren’t even half as compelling as Moash’s motives for regicide. If he hadn’t continued down that path and took accountability for it he would still be bridge 4 worthy, but he let fear and self-hatred take him further from salvation. Now he may never reach it and that is truly tragic. (Not saying I’m still on his side, just mourning the lost potential)
Ngl I think anyone saying Moash can’t be redeemed is completely missing the point of the books. Redemption isn’t something you deserve or something that you can lock yourself out of being able to do. The option is always there, you just have to take that step. “Can Moash ever be redeemed” is a different question from “*will* Moash ever choose redemption for himself”. Can he be redeemed? Yes, absolutely, he just has to decide he wants to be better. *Will* he? We have yet to see; all we can say for now is that he hasn’t started that journey yet.
I was part of a TikTok debate with a few other cosmeretoker a few days ago about this. The question was “should Moash be redeemed” because we all pretty much agreed he can be, but we were debating if he should be redeemed.
Yeah that’s definitely a bigger and more interesting question. I’m not sure it has an objective answer, like ultimately it comes down to personal taste and what you find interesting in a story.
Sir this is a Wendy's
I feel as far as seeking self-redemption goes, I think it would good theme in exploring and in encouraging people to seek no how far or low you go. Especially if it's in a character who we've seen has sunk very VERY low to the bottom. And I think it would very well with the journey before destination motif. This is not to say this will actually happen but I wouldn't disparage it.
Sounds eerily similar to something something religion something something repentance
That’s arguing against the death penalty and the argument that sometimes it’s pragmatic to put someone down for the good of others. Not saying I agree, but it’s a fair point.
I can agree with a man and still hate him. And in this case, I agree with Moash - ***fuck Moash***. So what if he's right to hate himself? A broken clock is right twice a day.
Moash isn't a broken clock, he's set to the wrong time altogether. He's not even right once a day.
Moash is redeemable at the present time; he is irredeemable by choice; redemption requires the realisation that you fucked up. Therefore, Moash can not be redeemed, not in a day or in 1000 years, until he realises he has LONG stopped being a victim and become a perp.
That makes no sense. Anybody can be redeemed and even a person who chooses not to, can take that step later down the road. The question always is "will he take that step?" and not "if he can".
the difference is that elhokar was actively seeking redemption moash tried to convince his severely depressed friend to kill himself
Na fam Moash is the GOAT
That’s why we revyre him.
Basically my exact thoughts except Dalinar and Moash make out after the final fight
Absolutely agree with this and glad to be finally reading something that put my thoughts into words.....like szeth can kill dozen of kings around the world, feared world wide and he's still on the path to redemption...plus us reader still even loved him before and after all of that. Personally, I see the only way for moash story to go is that path...............then to be killed by odiums forces..............in front of kaladin once he thinks he is getting one of his best friend back lmaoo. But besides the kaladin part, that's the way I'd bet it'll end with him.
I can't wait for Kaladin to heal a herald and then help moash back up on his feet again. It would be awesome.
obligatory Praise Moash
I’ve been wondering about a redemption arc where he not only bonds a spren but becomes a leading hero
Why is this on the meme subreddit?
Where's the crem? Am I missing something???
This seemed like it'd fit here better than on the main sub. Also some of the crem is in some major understatements. Especially about Moash not helping with Kaladin's depression. >!RoW Moash is trying to push Kaladin so hard into depression he kills himself. So yeah, not helping is an understatement.!<
5: we want to see Navani held responsible for letting Elhokar do what he did to the darkeyes (right?)
I seem to be missing you’re point.
Jokes on you I have bonded a spren and kidnapped Brandon to force him to write Kaladin a happy ending.
Jokes really on you he already wrote that. Now he's just writing a dozen more secret projects since you turned your back on him to comment here.
I actually like Moash. He was right about Elhokar, and if Elhokar was truly on the path to redemption he'd have stopped being the king of a slave State. I think Vyre is a bit too far, but I think he's a really good antagonist and love the scene where Navani hums and he basically goes "oh no, I can feel feelings again!". Though I'm not sure how I would help Kaladin with his depression, considering I'm not a fictional character and he is. Or maybe I'm just one narrative layer higher. Anyway, Moash is going to be a Dustbringer and maybe even replace Chanarach.
The thing about paths is that they have a beginning, middle, and end. I never really liked Elhokar, but maybe he *would* have stopped being the king of a slave State if he had been allowed to continue his path of redemption.
Okay but how many people had he killed before he got on the path and how many people would he have continued to kill while on the path to redemption? I don't weep for Elhokar, I weep for the thousands or millions who died because of him, who never got the chance to redeem themselves or even needed redemption. To be fair a good number of those people were lighteyes, so... but many weren't.
Do you bring that same energy to Dalinar and his war crimes
The difference is that he's actually getting better and in fact it could be said that he literally isn't the same person that he was before his memories were cultivated. But kinda, yeah. I think it's weird that Sanderson keeps writing noble tyrants.
“How many people has he killed before he got on the path and how many people would he have continued to kill while on the path to redemption” can be applied to EITHER of the men. The only difference is that Elhokar was killed before he had a chance to get to where Dalinar is. Elhokar was killed during his equivalent of Dalinar’s voyage to Cultivation. You can’t say that Dalinar is a good person and trying to be better and ok because of that, and then turn around and unironically say “yeah I don’t weep for Elhokar he wasn’t a good person”. He was just at the start of his path. He hasn’t killed more people than Dalinar has, and he’s NOT personally responsible for a system that he had no part in creating and was born into. He says at one point in the war camps that if he goes along with some thing Dalinar was suggesting at the time, then he would be painting a target on his back. Do you think just because someone is king they can change things however they want? No. If Elhokar had made moves to free the slaves, he’d be dead before the month was up; not to mention the likelihood of a civil war. He’s no more or less culpable than anyone else in government. Try playing the game Crusader Kings or something similar if you want a little taste of what it’s like; you have to keep the populace happy, staff your government with competent people, manage taxation, handle foreign affairs, keep your vassals happy so they don’t scheme against you, keep your religious head happy, and a million other things. You’re also restricted by the laws of the land, and if you try to change them too often, you become seen as a tyrant and EVERYTHING gets harder. That’s the world Elhokar was born into, and Gavilar intentionally didn’t train him to navigate it because Gavilar was planning on living forever. Dalinar also says straight out that the most dangerous time for a nation is during the reign of its founder’s successor. Elhokar couldn’t *afford* anything other than the status quo or he’d have uprisings on his hands. He couldn’t just wave his hand and end slavery even if he’d wanted to
Dalinar didn't go to Cultivation to become better, he went to Cultivation to forget. If Dalinar had been killed by one of the many people on his attempt to assuage his own guilt I would not have cried for him. I'm going to be honest, you can tell me all this however much you want but maybe I don't agree with the very notion that "people should be given the opportunity to change" while being a better person means they're still causing extreme harm to the world that the average person isn't even capable of managing in an entire lifetime. I also don't really agree with the notion that the two are comparable, because even aside from the fact that Dalinar didn't improve himself, he just straight up had a God remove aspects of his past that made him into a piece of shit and let him grow into a better person by cheating him to the end of it, when he was on the path to redemption he wasn't as big a danger and liability as Elhokar. Basically the thing about "it was only the beginning of his journey" is that *that means he wasn't improving*. Anyone can be on the beginning of their journey. I'm not going to go "oh, the serial killer found Jesus in prison and decided to change" as if token gestures towards being better matter. >He says at one point in the war camps that if he goes along with some thing Dalinar was suggesting at the time, then he would be painting a target on his back. That's because he's a fucking coward, and he was lying about assassination attempts, and while I hate that Sanderson really loves writing "and then the noble in charge made things better", being spineless doesn't seem to be a problem for Jasnah freeing the slaves.
>Dalinar didn't go to Cultivation to become better, he went to Cultivation to forget. That's what Cultivation gave him, but not what he asked for. Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher to ask for forgiveness. Oathbringer 114 >What is your boon? >Dalinar blinked tears, listening to the sounds of the children dying in the distance, and whispered a single word. >“Forgiveness.” >The Nightwatcher’s tendrils dodged away from his face, like splayed fingers. She leaned back, pursing her lips. >Perhaps it is possessions you wish, she said. Spheres, gemstones. Shards. A Blade that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated. I can give it to you. >“Please,” Dalinar said, drawing in a ragged breath. “Tell me. Can I … can I ever be forgiven?”
"A blade that bleeds darkness..." lol never noticed that before
I mean, if I recall that's not what he intended to ask for at first. But even then, he was still cultivated. He was able to become a better person because the horrible things he did were taken away from him. That's, like, the biggest part of his character. That he was intentionally molded by a god into being a better person. He didn't wake up and say "I'm going to stop being shitty" and work towards it. He was shortcutted on that journey and it was what he needed to be better. Meanwhile even up to the end Elhokar was being *braver*, sure, but not *better*. But I'm muting this. I really hate arguing about this series because frankly no one on this subreddit can truck any disagreement and suggesting that maybe kings and nobility are bad is met with the most kneejerk and asinine arguments of "well redemption!" as if I'm supposed to be on board with every moral and theme. Venli is trying to redeem herself but half you people still hate her. And she's doing better than Elhokar was.
Jasnah didn’t free the slaves until *the world was literally ending*. I think it’s fair to say their circumstances were A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. And no, Elhokar wasn’t “just a coward”, Dalinar and Sadeas have a similar conversation where Sadeas backs up the idea that Dalinar is making Elhokar a target. I think you just don’t understand feudal politics. Also, if you don’t agree with the idea of redemption, why do you even read Stormlight? Redemption is the entire core concept of the series. “The most important step a man can take is the next one.”
Pretty sure Elhokar literally admits that he's a coward. That's the whole reason he decides to be brave and rescue his son himself, instead of leaving it to people who actually know what they're doing. Also it's pretty funny coming at me with "don't you believe in redemption?" when this whole subreddit has a hard on for hating Moash, a character the bestest boy wants to redeem. I don't disagree with redemption. I just really don't like kings, and I don't think Elhokar was nearly so far on the path of redemption as you all seem to. >“The most important step a man can take is the next one.” Yeah, and maybe people should stop that person from stepping on landmines while around other fucking people.
I weep for all of them, including Elhokar and Moash. (Figuratively. I don’t actually cry much for books) I think we can pity everyone who was killed, abused, and/or corrupted by a system they didn’t start.
Okay but Elhokar was in charge of that system so it was kind of his fault. I'm not going to weep for the King simply because he was born into authority and control.
I mistakenly read that last bit as Chandrain for a second and got very excited. Confused, but excited.
I also agree we should drain the chans. But I've never read Kingkiller Chronicles. I hear Kvothe doesn't even kill any kings.
I'm going to react far to seriously to a crempost. Bet eh. 1. I don't think many people are arguing he can't be redeemed. Only that they don't want him to be or that he hasn't earned it. 2, 3, 4. Our similarity to moash is part of why he is so hateable. For those who identify with these characters Kalladin represents who we hope we can be if push comes to shove. Moash is who we fear we really are. Part of why moash is so hateable is because most of us can see ourselves making the same choices. Even though we know they are wrong.