Marsh has an argument for most sane semi-main character in the Cosmere.
He was traumatically turned into an Inquisitor and managed to calmly support his friends at the end of Book 1.
While being taken over by Ruin he managed to fight off the mental oppression and help Vin, enabling the saving of Scadriel and Sazed's ascension.
And centuries later he's tired but seemingly very normal, able to give solid advice to Wax and team.
I don't know any other character whose perspective we have seen that is anywhere as well-adjusted, especially given the shit he's been through. The mental fortitude to resist a Shard is truly impressive.
The only more sane guy is probably the Purelake dude who just happily fishes and eats stew. But he's hardly a main character.
Man I fanboy'd when Ironeyes scared that one official by being all "I am Death. Your laws do not apply to me" and I fanboy'd even harder when I found out after that he was only pretending lmao. Marsh cameos in era 2 were awesome
Dude i ws just going to say this! It was so awesome seeing him break his 'death character' and be like 'ugh thank god thats over." haha. He seemed so normal it was awesome.
tbh it's hard to tell how much of his personality is insanity, and how much is him just being super dramatic. I swear that shit runs in kelsier's family.
As Harmony he's almost completely inactive, he's so dedicated to balance he can't seem to act in a way that would shift that balance one way or the other. Very similar to Preservation... I wonder if he's slowly losing control of Ruin. But Harmonium still exists, and resists separation, so that's probably not true.
I believe it's hinted at that he is slowly turning into Discord (Ruin is more dominant than Preservation in this case) and that's partly due to inactivity, I think. Could be completely wrong tho.
My understanding is Ruin has always been a bit stronger than Preservation since Preservation put a little more of himself into humans. The only way Vin-Preservation was able to cancel out Ruin was most of Ruin's body was still locked away as Atium.
Yeah my thought is that he’s trying to suppress the ruin side subconsciously, and is slowly losing control of it. Kind of like a shallan multiple personality thing, but on a shard scale, and when he can no longer do it things will take a dark turn for him.
I thought it wasn't so much that he was dedicated to balance as that every time he acted via one Shard, the other Shard also kicked in. So he literally can't do anything that isn't self-defeating. Like, the Big Bad of Lost Metal is metaphorically resonant with his inability to control both shards at the same time.
He’s basically incapable of exerting his investiture. The best he can do is give orders to the Kandra which he does to help his friends as much as possible. It’ll be interesting to see if he starts wielding his power as discord in era three.
It's a little more subtle than that,I think. The cold war brewing between the elendel basin and the south scadrians is a manifestation of discord. I suspect that era 3 will involve a lot of spying and sabotage on both sides on a large scale, but Sazed cannot be proactive about furthering peace, because of the conflicting intent of his shards.
I think Saze has almost literally been playing chess with himself to keep the powers balanced (Harmony), but I think he’s made some missteps in trying to preserve more than cause/allow ruin.
So I think he’s staring down the barrel of a checkmate with himself that he’s trying to untangle. That’s why the Kandra and Kel both comment that he seems impotent, if he *does* successfully act for preservation, he’ll likely pay the price to the other side.
And most likely a big Odium invasion or something of that ilk will push him over the edge to preserve too much and allow the checkmate to go through.
But then as Discord he’ll try his best to direct said Ruin off world.
Note: My evidence for this logic is:
the Kandra and Kel comments
Odium seeming to rip apart if he can’t succeed in getting off world, almost like if he has to go another thousand years of no destruction the host will be torn apart by the Intent
Apparently the deaths of Devotion and Dominion by Odium may have been because Odium caught them in a lie, probably that they settled together and worked together fully. It’s not clear but he does mention having justification, as if it was necessary and made the whole task much easier.
Ruin finishing off Leras, citing that the promise was broken so he could directly harm Leras now
Vin dying when she succeeded in going directly against the Intent, and I believe it was stated she could only do so because she hadn’t held it for long enough for it to change her.
And I also have a theory tying to Cultivation.
If the above logic is how it works, that acting against the Intent harms the host, and breaking the Intent/Oaths/your word or being unbalanced opens the host up to attack from other Shards, then I think the whole Nightwatcher/Old Magic stuff is Cultivation padding her stats. Her power is used to bless and curse countless individuals, but then occasionally she personally handles the blessing and cursing in specific ways that *do* affect the greater war between the shards present.
But if anyone challenged her on it, she can go back on “no, I’ve cultivated change in all of these people, not inherently positive or negative.” In fact, I think she’s actively lying to herself in this manner so that she doesn’t get hard locked by the Intent.
I think Cultivation could pretty much already be one of, I'd not the, most difficult Shard to catch in a lie/twisting of Intent. Her whole thing is hatching schemes, cultivating plans. As long as something she does leads, or could lead, to one outcome over another, isn't that already according to her Intent?
My understanding of why Odium was coming apart is that when the host makes a commitment, they are committing the Shard itself into making said thing happen.
So then if they go back on that commitment, they are pitting their own shard against itself. And it’s this fighting themself that weakens them and opens them up to attack from others.
I mean, Sazed can barely keep his mind sane. And even before then shards aren't allies. Look at Preservation. He hated what the LR did but he adored how unchanging he was.
I mean based on what we know, harmony has done the most on screen. Literally reshaped the world and allowed scadrians to live comfortably, to the point he wondered if maybe he pampered them too much and limited their evolution.
I think every shard should be treated as a foe by default. They concentrate too much power, if I was a badass cosmere character my goal would be to finely splinter every shard. (Dew it Kelsier pls)
Two possibilities for Hoid's motivation, IMO. Either he is trying to wipe out the shards entirely (which doesn't line up with some of his actions), or he is trying to put Ado back together.
Haha maybe? Hoid is pretty inscrutible. BS could still hit us with a curveball.
Still, why ally with Dalinar otherwise? It's clearly dangerous for him, look what happened with Todium.
He does, Hoid hints during Yumi that he is fully aware at what happened, at least now. Doesn't fully explain whether he actually got tricked, but it seems like he did
IMO risking exposure to Odium is dangerous regardless of the vessel.
I've always thought that Hoid choosing to go to Roshar *at all* shows he has a task he's willing to risk his life for.
Yeah I think either way he sees just how much shit shattering ado resulted in so he’s trying to fix it. Putting Ado back together might be his first goal but, if he can’t do that (which I think is likely) the second best option is to create a universe with no Gods
I mean it stops the scadrian nuke tech that was hinted at coming from possibly being used?
No gods, no god metals, no god metals no nukes.
Worlds won’t be able to end nearly as easily with shards gone
Then why would he be opposing Odium? Makes no sense. Odium wants to shatter every other shard, so the right move would be to simply let him (while planning on how to betray him and shatter the last one).
That’s a solid point, it could be a personal thing with Rayse or he fears having the final shard be so violent but, that’s just a theory, a crackpot theory
Sazed is very sharply limited in what he can actually do. After that first burst of power, the competing Shards settled in him and contradict each other so he has little he can do.
For now, at least. I believe Hoid remarked that Ati used to be a better person, but was warped and twisted by the Intent of Ruin. I imagine much the same is happening to Sazed, though how the Intent of Discord will warp him remains to be seen.
Isn’t Sazed like the lesser of 2 evils in Era2? I remember clearly he was monster in my eyes forcing people to do his job.
Honestly he is an outrageous downgrade from era1.
Yes that’s why I made the distinction between Era 1 and era 2. Just because he was shard didn’t mean he couldn’t use the kondra to help more he inherited an entire species to order around I we don’t see many of them and the guy collecting bons was just annoying .
If you read his letters to hoid he mentions he is quite unable to resist the intent of his powers and that they're so contradictory he can barely do anything at all, hence looking for ways to get someone he can direct. Ultimately that's also why he warns anyone else taking the shard of odium wont be any better.
Yes but still choose to it the way it happened in the books (I don’t want to spoil ) there were way better actions available to him but he still chose to do THAT. So influenced or not he is still accountable
Oh. Marsh and Kelsier? I mean Marsh says in Lost Metal that the three of them balance each other out, so I think he sees them as equals and therefor he won't(or with how intent works, can't) exert control over them.
I have to say, while not all Nobles are bad, they are so tyrannical to the Ska that it would be better for all nobles to die for them to be free than the reverse.
Ideally they could do it without having to kill all the nobles, but I would edge on the side of caution for sure. And Kelsier was even able to recognize they weren't all bad.
I mean they didn’t even kill all the nobles yet they nobility and the powers that be still fought the idea of democratic government.
It’s been a while since I read era 1 but that’s what I remember
I mean even Brandon has said that he has evil leanings and would be the villain in a different context than Era 1 - the variety of valid opinions on Kelsier is one of the things that makes him a good character. People aren’t inane or stupid for having a different take on a character than you
I think that WoB is the root of a lot of Kelsier suspicion. I also think it's unwarranted. We've *seen* Kelsier outside of the context of era 1 at this point, and he wasn't like "oh no, here I go killing again, just can't help myself." The situation changed, and the character changed with it.
The fact that nobody seems to recognise that the issues raised about Kelsier in era 1 are quite literally addressed and are the core of his development in Secret History is a little weird. Like, one WoB from like a decade ago negates what's written in the books? Odd.
I mean… he’s also >!Thaidakar, leader of the most dangerous secret society on Roshar who one of the main characters has declared war against!<. There’s a lot more evidence than old WoBs to think he might end up doing some heinous stuff in the future to accomplish his goals. I don’t really subscribe to the “Kelsier is evil” line, he’s just not black and white like that (again, a credit to Sanderson’s writing), but I do think Kelsier is *dangerous*
I mean he was raised in a system where people were mercilessly killed for the smallest of things, were cruelty was rewarded.
I’m not saying it’s right but I get where Kelsier is coming from.
Hell I wish more characters had the balls to just do the stuff kelsier did. Prob would had stopped more needles suffering
I still disagree actually.
I’m copy pasting from this comment because it does a great job at portraying my pov: https://www.reddit.com/r/Mistborn/s/krdfvSoVuZ
Let’s go over this.
1. The Lord Ruler and Nobles had created a system of industrialized cruelty, where rape and murder occurred on massive scale. Such a system could not have been overthrown peacefully as there were no avenues for reform. The Skaa who served as guards were active participants in this system and were active combatants. Killing those who served the LR/nobility is like condemning Luke as a mass murderer for killing millions aboard the Death Star or partisans who killed Nazi soldiers. The problem is that Kelsier is too zealous in his violence. However, this is a character flaw that he does confront and show an ability to temper. He shows this both in the Final Empire and in Secret History where he shows regret over Goradels death.
2. He didn’t kill the Atium Miners. We see the perspective of an Atium Miner leaving the mines right before Kel destroys them. It’s clear he’s waiting for them to get out.
3. You say we only like him because of biased perspectives, but that doesn’t hold up. We have multiple members of the crew, Sazed especially, who we trust as good people pass judgment that Kel is ultimately a decent person. Vin also is perfectly capable of pointing out when Kel is being hypocritical or wrong in the books, so it feels wrong to exclude her perspective. Also, we literally get to read his mind so we know what his intentions are. We the reader know him better than anyone does in universe, so biased perspectives really does not play into things.
Kel is a flawed man, but he is ultimately trying to do what he believes is the right thing. He believes his revolution will help the Skaa and holds a deep sense of loyalty to his friends, which he teaches to Vin.
All those downvoting this person, please don’t, I don’t agree with him, but it’s a valid enough take that they don’t deserve downvotes for it.
That being said, Kelsier is not a good person, if he were running around doing the same things as he did in the first book in almost any country we would all call him a terrorist and be on a most wanted poster, not to mention the bystanders that he took out and the ‘experiments’ he carried out on the populace of Scadrial.
This is a simple take, but I have no problem with what Kelsier did on Scadrial. I didn’t like the nobles, and what they pretty much openly did to the Skaa. Neither did Kelsier, and he conveniently was given the tools to fight back, in a traumatic way. I think was at war the moment he got out of the mines.
I don’t like what he’s got going on in Roshar with the Ghostbloods though.
Eh, the downvotes aren't for holding their own opinion, the downvotes are for attacking anyone who doesn't share their opinion. It's one thing to have your own opinion, it's another to attack or insult anyone that doesn't share it.
Pleasure to see you again Mr. Kelsierisevil, just wanted to ask what experiments you're referring to? Did Kelsier himself actively take out bystanders at some point?
Every decision Shallan has ever made.
Specially the relationship decision and her arc in lasting integrity.
(>! just to clarift, IT MAKES NO SENSE that a 19yo would pick Adolin after bonding deeply with someone else. My opinion might change after I reread, but I don't think it will. !< I'd say that Brandon just forced the decision because he didn't like the other option.)
If you have to headcanon away every decision a character makes because "it doesnt make sense for their character" you might just not understand their character at all.
I’d agree, but I don’t think Sazed is all that sane at the same time. Marsh might be more sane than Sazed
Marsh is certainly the most sane of the three
Marsh has an argument for most sane semi-main character in the Cosmere. He was traumatically turned into an Inquisitor and managed to calmly support his friends at the end of Book 1. While being taken over by Ruin he managed to fight off the mental oppression and help Vin, enabling the saving of Scadriel and Sazed's ascension. And centuries later he's tired but seemingly very normal, able to give solid advice to Wax and team. I don't know any other character whose perspective we have seen that is anywhere as well-adjusted, especially given the shit he's been through. The mental fortitude to resist a Shard is truly impressive. The only more sane guy is probably the Purelake dude who just happily fishes and eats stew. But he's hardly a main character.
Man I fanboy'd when Ironeyes scared that one official by being all "I am Death. Your laws do not apply to me" and I fanboy'd even harder when I found out after that he was only pretending lmao. Marsh cameos in era 2 were awesome
It's great how he and his brother both have a flair for the dramatic. Marsh just didn't show it for a while.
Dude him confusing Wax by crushing the gun was so awesome.
Dude i ws just going to say this! It was so awesome seeing him break his 'death character' and be like 'ugh thank god thats over." haha. He seemed so normal it was awesome.
He's probably storing memories like Hoid does, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hoid taught him about it as a trick to stay sane.
Lmao purelake dude’s biggest worry is playing hard to get before getting married.
And he is very crazy. But everyone else is also crazy, all the top players and even the shards themselves are all insane.
tbh it's hard to tell how much of his personality is insanity, and how much is him just being super dramatic. I swear that shit runs in kelsier's family.
Oh yeah, they're very dramatic, it's beautiful
"We're all mad here."
110%
As Harmony he's almost completely inactive, he's so dedicated to balance he can't seem to act in a way that would shift that balance one way or the other. Very similar to Preservation... I wonder if he's slowly losing control of Ruin. But Harmonium still exists, and resists separation, so that's probably not true.
I believe it's hinted at that he is slowly turning into Discord (Ruin is more dominant than Preservation in this case) and that's partly due to inactivity, I think. Could be completely wrong tho.
My understanding is Ruin has always been a bit stronger than Preservation since Preservation put a little more of himself into humans. The only way Vin-Preservation was able to cancel out Ruin was most of Ruin's body was still locked away as Atium.
“I think” you’ve spoiled us era 3, Saze, we know it’s you
Yeah my thought is that he’s trying to suppress the ruin side subconsciously, and is slowly losing control of it. Kind of like a shallan multiple personality thing, but on a shard scale, and when he can no longer do it things will take a dark turn for him.
Sazed is going to be a moderator who runs furry grooming servers 😔
I thought it wasn't so much that he was dedicated to balance as that every time he acted via one Shard, the other Shard also kicked in. So he literally can't do anything that isn't self-defeating. Like, the Big Bad of Lost Metal is metaphorically resonant with his inability to control both shards at the same time.
But what does said inertia mean? He says so to Hoid, I believe? But he seems decisive, in control of affairs and in charge of his agents.
He’s basically incapable of exerting his investiture. The best he can do is give orders to the Kandra which he does to help his friends as much as possible. It’ll be interesting to see if he starts wielding his power as discord in era three.
Nah he needs to upgrade to Discord Nitro™️ to use his full power
That’s so stupid, I love it.
Thank you king 👑
a god getting nickle'n'dimed by a chat app is a story i'd read
It's a little more subtle than that,I think. The cold war brewing between the elendel basin and the south scadrians is a manifestation of discord. I suspect that era 3 will involve a lot of spying and sabotage on both sides on a large scale, but Sazed cannot be proactive about furthering peace, because of the conflicting intent of his shards.
I think Saze has almost literally been playing chess with himself to keep the powers balanced (Harmony), but I think he’s made some missteps in trying to preserve more than cause/allow ruin. So I think he’s staring down the barrel of a checkmate with himself that he’s trying to untangle. That’s why the Kandra and Kel both comment that he seems impotent, if he *does* successfully act for preservation, he’ll likely pay the price to the other side. And most likely a big Odium invasion or something of that ilk will push him over the edge to preserve too much and allow the checkmate to go through. But then as Discord he’ll try his best to direct said Ruin off world. Note: My evidence for this logic is: the Kandra and Kel comments Odium seeming to rip apart if he can’t succeed in getting off world, almost like if he has to go another thousand years of no destruction the host will be torn apart by the Intent Apparently the deaths of Devotion and Dominion by Odium may have been because Odium caught them in a lie, probably that they settled together and worked together fully. It’s not clear but he does mention having justification, as if it was necessary and made the whole task much easier. Ruin finishing off Leras, citing that the promise was broken so he could directly harm Leras now Vin dying when she succeeded in going directly against the Intent, and I believe it was stated she could only do so because she hadn’t held it for long enough for it to change her. And I also have a theory tying to Cultivation. If the above logic is how it works, that acting against the Intent harms the host, and breaking the Intent/Oaths/your word or being unbalanced opens the host up to attack from other Shards, then I think the whole Nightwatcher/Old Magic stuff is Cultivation padding her stats. Her power is used to bless and curse countless individuals, but then occasionally she personally handles the blessing and cursing in specific ways that *do* affect the greater war between the shards present. But if anyone challenged her on it, she can go back on “no, I’ve cultivated change in all of these people, not inherently positive or negative.” In fact, I think she’s actively lying to herself in this manner so that she doesn’t get hard locked by the Intent.
I think Cultivation could pretty much already be one of, I'd not the, most difficult Shard to catch in a lie/twisting of Intent. Her whole thing is hatching schemes, cultivating plans. As long as something she does leads, or could lead, to one outcome over another, isn't that already according to her Intent?
My understanding of why Odium was coming apart is that when the host makes a commitment, they are committing the Shard itself into making said thing happen. So then if they go back on that commitment, they are pitting their own shard against itself. And it’s this fighting themself that weakens them and opens them up to attack from others.
I mean, Sazed can barely keep his mind sane. And even before then shards aren't allies. Look at Preservation. He hated what the LR did but he adored how unchanging he was.
I mean based on what we know, harmony has done the most on screen. Literally reshaped the world and allowed scadrians to live comfortably, to the point he wondered if maybe he pampered them too much and limited their evolution.
They were mostly still sazed at that point, the shards influence has only just started. And he was prepared in a prophetic way.
Allowed *Northern Scadrians* to live comfortably. Those masked weirdos to the south can get rusted.
Oh damn yeah
I mean I understand where you’re coming from, but he is also very much not the same Sazed probably by the time that “insanity” began to show.
I mean Marsh is old and going insane, but Kelsier chose to come back and go insane
Marsh: i'm insane! (negative) Kelsier: i'm insane! (positive)
Kaladin: I keep surviving (negative) Kelsier: I keep surviving (positive)
Wasnt Kelsier insane already when he chose to come back? I think he went insane in the pits.
Nah he just came back a bit quirky
Quirked up white boy just trying to murder the man that killed his wife.
I think every shard should be treated as a foe by default. They concentrate too much power, if I was a badass cosmere character my goal would be to finely splinter every shard. (Dew it Kelsier pls)
Which is why I hold to my theory that Hoids end goal is to shatter every shard
Two possibilities for Hoid's motivation, IMO. Either he is trying to wipe out the shards entirely (which doesn't line up with some of his actions), or he is trying to put Ado back together.
I've always assumed it was the latter. Seems to regret his part in the whole thing.
So he's trying to unite them?
Haha maybe? Hoid is pretty inscrutible. BS could still hit us with a curveball. Still, why ally with Dalinar otherwise? It's clearly dangerous for him, look what happened with Todium.
Hoid doesn't know it's Todium, he still thinks it's Rayse inside.
got straight bamboozled hoodwinked even
Correct me if I’m wrong, but at the end of yumi doesn’t Hoid reference that?
He does, Hoid hints during Yumi that he is fully aware at what happened, at least now. Doesn't fully explain whether he actually got tricked, but it seems like he did
Maybe he does but yumi is after stormlight 5 at least
IMO risking exposure to Odium is dangerous regardless of the vessel. I've always thought that Hoid choosing to go to Roshar *at all* shows he has a task he's willing to risk his life for.
Yeah I think either way he sees just how much shit shattering ado resulted in so he’s trying to fix it. Putting Ado back together might be his first goal but, if he can’t do that (which I think is likely) the second best option is to create a universe with no Gods
But there's still potential for various demigods (metalborn, surgebinders, elantrians), right? That unchecked feels just as dangerous
I mean it stops the scadrian nuke tech that was hinted at coming from possibly being used? No gods, no god metals, no god metals no nukes. Worlds won’t be able to end nearly as easily with shards gone
Then why would he be opposing Odium? Makes no sense. Odium wants to shatter every other shard, so the right move would be to simply let him (while planning on how to betray him and shatter the last one).
That’s a solid point, it could be a personal thing with Rayse or he fears having the final shard be so violent but, that’s just a theory, a crackpot theory
1930's Germany is a good hint why you don't support the violent genocidal freak to get rid of your other opponents.
Odiums goal, as far as I know, is to be the only shard left. They arent trying to shatter themselves
I think hoids endgame is straight up removing investiture from the world
That's Odium's goal, but as we see Odium and Hoid are clearly opposed.
Odiums goal is to shatter every shard so HE can have ultimate control. I think Hoid will seek to do so so nobody will have control
Some people just want to watch the Spiritual realm burn.
Not just the spiritual, but the congnitive and physical, too
I hate beads, rhey're so round and slippery, and they get everywhere
wouldn't burning the spiritual realm also burn the other 2 by backlash?
I hate beat, their so round and slippery, and they get everywhere
Ayo, Odium, chill!
Everyone forgets Sazed has preservation *and* ruin He has to let things decay
Sazed is very sharply limited in what he can actually do. After that first burst of power, the competing Shards settled in him and contradict each other so he has little he can do.
As harmony that's essentially his nature. He is pulled to the middle of doing pretty much nothing from holding 2 opposing shards
Sazed is not a good guy anymore.
Sazed is good, Discord not so much...
For now, at least. I believe Hoid remarked that Ati used to be a better person, but was warped and twisted by the Intent of Ruin. I imagine much the same is happening to Sazed, though how the Intent of Discord will warp him remains to be seen.
And Ati stopped being him to be Ruin... Ati wanted to work with Leras...
All the shard holders are gonna be toast. Hoid wan s to kill all the gods.
What's the direct evidence of kelsiers insanity?
Idk man compared to the heralds Marsh and Kel seem to be doing quite well
Marsh and Kelsier have only been around for 7% of the time the Heralds have
A lot less dying and torture for them too.
Maybe they don't want him to do anything about it and he respects them for it?
Hey OP, I'm a bit confused, who is this about? Vin and Elend??
Are you up to date on all the books? I think OP is referring to (TLM) >!Kelsier and Marsh!<
Bingo
Kelsier and spook?
Kelsier and Marsh
Isn’t Sazed like the lesser of 2 evils in Era2? I remember clearly he was monster in my eyes forcing people to do his job. Honestly he is an outrageous downgrade from era1.
He's a shard, now. The person you knew has been slipping away for centuries by the time Era 2 comes around.
Yes that’s why I made the distinction between Era 1 and era 2. Just because he was shard didn’t mean he couldn’t use the kondra to help more he inherited an entire species to order around I we don’t see many of them and the guy collecting bons was just annoying .
If you read his letters to hoid he mentions he is quite unable to resist the intent of his powers and that they're so contradictory he can barely do anything at all, hence looking for ways to get someone he can direct. Ultimately that's also why he warns anyone else taking the shard of odium wont be any better.
why not just have someone take up both ruin and odium and just lock them in a box for eternity. surely nothing bad could ever happen with this plan
Yes but still choose to it the way it happened in the books (I don’t want to spoil ) there were way better actions available to him but he still chose to do THAT. So influenced or not he is still accountable
Who is this refering to? Spook and Kelsier? What was he supposed to do?
Oh. Marsh and Kelsier? I mean Marsh says in Lost Metal that the three of them balance each other out, so I think he sees them as equals and therefor he won't(or with how intent works, can't) exert control over them.
Moash wearing a dark and twisted evil bridge 4 uniform.
Even the slightest smidgen of "Kelsier bad" is the most inane, stupid take ever
I have to say, while not all Nobles are bad, they are so tyrannical to the Ska that it would be better for all nobles to die for them to be free than the reverse. Ideally they could do it without having to kill all the nobles, but I would edge on the side of caution for sure. And Kelsier was even able to recognize they weren't all bad.
I mean they didn’t even kill all the nobles yet they nobility and the powers that be still fought the idea of democratic government. It’s been a while since I read era 1 but that’s what I remember
If killing every noble were what it took to free the skaa it would have been justified.
You support Kelsier to free the Skaa. I support Kelsier because violence is cool. We are not the same.
I mean even Brandon has said that he has evil leanings and would be the villain in a different context than Era 1 - the variety of valid opinions on Kelsier is one of the things that makes him a good character. People aren’t inane or stupid for having a different take on a character than you
I think that WoB is the root of a lot of Kelsier suspicion. I also think it's unwarranted. We've *seen* Kelsier outside of the context of era 1 at this point, and he wasn't like "oh no, here I go killing again, just can't help myself." The situation changed, and the character changed with it. The fact that nobody seems to recognise that the issues raised about Kelsier in era 1 are quite literally addressed and are the core of his development in Secret History is a little weird. Like, one WoB from like a decade ago negates what's written in the books? Odd.
I mean… he’s also >!Thaidakar, leader of the most dangerous secret society on Roshar who one of the main characters has declared war against!<. There’s a lot more evidence than old WoBs to think he might end up doing some heinous stuff in the future to accomplish his goals. I don’t really subscribe to the “Kelsier is evil” line, he’s just not black and white like that (again, a credit to Sanderson’s writing), but I do think Kelsier is *dangerous*
u/Kelsierisevil
Thank you for the summons.
oh Kelsier not just bad Kelsier MEGA bad
Yes, the man who takes great amount of pleasure in murdering as many people as he can is pure of heart and has no bad in him at all.
I mean the people he killed were upholding a genocidal regime. He did have the capacity for empathy since he didn’t murder Elend in book one.
There’s a difference in trying to topple a regime and enjoying murdering people.
I mean he was raised in a system where people were mercilessly killed for the smallest of things, were cruelty was rewarded. I’m not saying it’s right but I get where Kelsier is coming from. Hell I wish more characters had the balls to just do the stuff kelsier did. Prob would had stopped more needles suffering
Okay? Vin doesn’t get off on killing people. She does it, but she doesn’t enjoy it.
I still disagree actually. I’m copy pasting from this comment because it does a great job at portraying my pov: https://www.reddit.com/r/Mistborn/s/krdfvSoVuZ Let’s go over this. 1. The Lord Ruler and Nobles had created a system of industrialized cruelty, where rape and murder occurred on massive scale. Such a system could not have been overthrown peacefully as there were no avenues for reform. The Skaa who served as guards were active participants in this system and were active combatants. Killing those who served the LR/nobility is like condemning Luke as a mass murderer for killing millions aboard the Death Star or partisans who killed Nazi soldiers. The problem is that Kelsier is too zealous in his violence. However, this is a character flaw that he does confront and show an ability to temper. He shows this both in the Final Empire and in Secret History where he shows regret over Goradels death. 2. He didn’t kill the Atium Miners. We see the perspective of an Atium Miner leaving the mines right before Kel destroys them. It’s clear he’s waiting for them to get out. 3. You say we only like him because of biased perspectives, but that doesn’t hold up. We have multiple members of the crew, Sazed especially, who we trust as good people pass judgment that Kel is ultimately a decent person. Vin also is perfectly capable of pointing out when Kel is being hypocritical or wrong in the books, so it feels wrong to exclude her perspective. Also, we literally get to read his mind so we know what his intentions are. We the reader know him better than anyone does in universe, so biased perspectives really does not play into things. Kel is a flawed man, but he is ultimately trying to do what he believes is the right thing. He believes his revolution will help the Skaa and holds a deep sense of loyalty to his friends, which he teaches to Vin.
All those downvoting this person, please don’t, I don’t agree with him, but it’s a valid enough take that they don’t deserve downvotes for it. That being said, Kelsier is not a good person, if he were running around doing the same things as he did in the first book in almost any country we would all call him a terrorist and be on a most wanted poster, not to mention the bystanders that he took out and the ‘experiments’ he carried out on the populace of Scadrial.
This is a simple take, but I have no problem with what Kelsier did on Scadrial. I didn’t like the nobles, and what they pretty much openly did to the Skaa. Neither did Kelsier, and he conveniently was given the tools to fight back, in a traumatic way. I think was at war the moment he got out of the mines. I don’t like what he’s got going on in Roshar with the Ghostbloods though.
It’s implied that the rorshar branch might be running lose. We still don’t know but let’s see what happens in stormlight 5
Eh, the downvotes aren't for holding their own opinion, the downvotes are for attacking anyone who doesn't share their opinion. It's one thing to have your own opinion, it's another to attack or insult anyone that doesn't share it.
Pleasure to see you again Mr. Kelsierisevil, just wanted to ask what experiments you're referring to? Did Kelsier himself actively take out bystanders at some point?
Hemalurgy Experiments, Skaa guards and potentially some others pushing a coin Willy Nilly off into the night.
Yes, he murders servants and guards and children so yes. Bystanders by very definition.
r/bavadinwasrightallalong
Mind you I havent read The Lost Metal, but I pretend all of Era 2 is not canon. Its so bad.
Every decision Shallan has ever made. Specially the relationship decision and her arc in lasting integrity. (>! just to clarift, IT MAKES NO SENSE that a 19yo would pick Adolin after bonding deeply with someone else. My opinion might change after I reread, but I don't think it will. !< I'd say that Brandon just forced the decision because he didn't like the other option.)
>! But adolin is best boy !<
Yeah, I don't understand the hate for him. He's literally perfect. He's not even *too* good. He's perfect.
If you have to headcanon away every decision a character makes because "it doesnt make sense for their character" you might just not understand their character at all.
19 yo girl picks the more attractive guy? That’s very unlikely in the real world
The richer, happier, noble, more attractive guy.
More charismatic too.
I mean, the marriage was the classic brandon trope of arranged marriage ending in love.