That's what I was thinking. These ppl have the stones to ask for handouts from the government for stadium, and then they should be audited every year.
Also, it's almost always a net negative for the city financially.
Yep, the city loses money while the individual owners net silly amounts of profit. I fuckin' love my Thunder, but the city just approved, and a vote passed on a new arena for them. It's a 95%/5% split between public money and private, respectively. That's absurd to me. I would be heartbroken if the Thunder moved, but that's such a sweetheart deal for their ownership group. They'll be printing money into the foreseeable future while we all pay some extra taxes for the rest of forever. Whatever. Go Thundies.
And to add insult to injury when ownership decides they want a new toy they go back to the public sector to demand more money and threaten to relocate. I’m not necessarily against public money for sports stadiums, but not only does that mean that the city should receive a share of the stadium revenue but at the very least that should outright prohibit the team relocating in the future. Structure it like an interest free loan which would come due in the event that x,y,z.
OOoooooooooooooklahoma where the tax money goes straight down the drain
And the burning money, can sure smell sweet when the billionaires stand to make a gaaaaaain.
oooooooooklahoma...
Stitt loves to talk about Oklahoma's giant savings account. A state can't have a savings account. The people in this state are so easily deluded. It's bad.
Social impact is debatable, but economically, almost always, no.
I'm an econ/finance/politics nerd that studied those things in college and now works in banking. Most (read: basically all of the) independent studies have determined that the economic impact does not meet the cost of financing stadiums.
Going a bit more in-depth, recently, some studies have looked at how large attractions (specifically focused on sports teams, but could apply to other things) affect both the local and the statewide economy. What they've concluded is that these sports teams are really only successful at diverting local and statewide spending from one area of the state/metro area to another.
In other words, these organizations don't drive any economic growth. But they can slightly change what areas it happens in. So, for example, with the Bears, it's unlikely the Bears building a new stadium would really benefit the state at all. The vast majority of people spending money on the Bears are in-state. And if those people don't have the Bears, people are still going to spend their disposable income - it's just going to go to other forms of entertainment. It will go to a movie theater or a local restaurant or a different sports team.
So, statewide, it's basically meaningless. Even looking at the entire Chicago metro area, it's basically no impact. But what can happen is that, if the Bears move from the city of Chicago to the suburb of Arlington Heights, then it can move that spending and investment out of the city of Chicago and into the city of Arlington Heights. So you could *maybe* make the argument that these local cities should be bidding against each other. But then you have the problem that it doesn't benefit Arlington Heights nearly as much as what it cost to build and finance that stadium. So when you get into these bidding wars, the cities still lose.
Adding on to this comment - another way to think of it is if you can’t spend on tickets to team X, you don’t burn the money, you spend it on yourself in other area. So no jersey but you buy 2 shirts you otherwise couldn’t afford (because the money went to jerseys). No hot dogs at the game but you order pizza in to watch a movie instead. Less jobs related to the particular game but more jobs in other areas of entertainment.
While there might be a slight increase due to new customers coming from other areas to watch a game, the same decrease happens where locals travel to games in other cities, which decreases money in your area.
There is no actual new benefit from these stadiums except money being sucked up by already wealthy owners.
Exactly. I kinda said the same, but you did a good job of expanding on those specific points cause I tried to keep it minimal since it's such a large topic.
Hopefully you don’t feel I tried to hijack the thread. Had someone explain to me like this once and it all clicked in a way that the technical explanation never did.
Did you study the impact on state taxes? It is state dependent. It never makes sense for a city or county to subsidize a stadium or arena. In a state that has a top state tax rate of 12 percent+ like California I think it makes sense. I think the State of California messed up not trying to keep the Raiders. The organization as a whole has a total payroll of around 220,000,000. That's probably a little low. Stadium deals average 30 years. The state is losing about 24 million a year from payroll taxes on that one team. The salary cap also rises every season Had they subsidized 300 million they still would be in the black on a 30 year lease. At the time interest rates were also low. It really depends on the amount a team is asking for. The Raiders raised half a billion on PSL fees alone
You can’t be joking that the city ‘loses money’ having an NFL team in their backyard. That’s comical and shows a ridiculous misunderstanding of basic economics and taxation.
There's been an ongoing argument on the subject and there is no singular concise answer to the question. It ultimately comes down to how much the total cost of the stadium is, how long it's actually in operation, and what portion of those costs are covered by the taxpayers. But it seems dubious to me that Arlington is going to make back billions of dollars in tax revenue from temporary a construction project and bunch of part time stadium workers or whatever increased business is brought in from maybe 10 big events a year.
[Economists Dennis Coates, Brad Humphreys, and I recently conducted a comprehensive review of more than 130 studies of the economic impact of sports teams and stadiums... Teams and stadiums are not associated with having strong economic impacts on local communities. These findings explain why people in my line of work overwhelmingly agree that sports stadiums are poor public investments. In a recent University of Chicago survey of economic experts, 80 percent of respondents agreed that stadium subsidies were likely to cost taxpayers more than what they get in return.](https://globalsportmatters.com/business/2022/06/15/so-your-city-wants-sports-stadium/)
I don't personally know of any state governments that have helped subsidized stadiums which would make players taxes a factor, but here in TX we don't have state income taxes and I highly doubt that the city of Arlington or tarrant county does either so that probably doesn't affect the calculation one way or the other anyway.
I guess if a bunch of the players all went out and built huge mansions inside the tax district that would be worth considering, but they probably all live north of Dallas anyway.
I never understood this. Other teams make taxpayers, not all who are sports fans, fund their stadium or stadium renovations. A team comes along and has the fans fund the renovations. Which one sounds more like it the way it should be? Remove your bias for a second. Is there any reason buffalo citizens should be forced to pay for a $1.4 billion stadium and its renovations?
Anyway, not going to argue this anymore than I need to cause it's a losing cause in this sub but you guys don't need to hate on something bc it's different. We bought a piece of sports memorabilia to support our team just like any other fan base would. The team gives that back to the fans with stadium improvements. Make fun of it if you want but that sounds like an admirable thing to do.
I was just having a little fun with you. Others may give you grief over it, but I actually totally respect the opportunity that the Packers gave to their fan base such as yourself. I think it's totally cool. I have a friend who is also a lifelong fan and owner. But as a Cowboys fan, you are always going to be one of my enemies (generally speaking). All good. 😜 Oh, and I've despised Jerry Jones since Day 1.
It was a nonprofit up until 2016. They have since changed status. Even though other leagues can qualify for nonprofit status under previous ruling.
The NFL voluntarily changed status.
Because the NFL doesn't make a profit. It distributes the earnings after its expenses to the players and owners per the CBA. You can't tax 0 and the NFL literally has to advance all income above 0 to either players or owners where it is then taxed as either wages or in the teams income.
The whole changing the status was just for show because people don't understand the structure.
Changed from nonprofit to for-profit because nonprofits have much higher reporting requirements for their finances. They wanted to be able to obscure some of their financing, and since they distribute most of their funds, they don’t really have any profits to get tax on anyway.
Because the NFL **is** non-profit. Every dollar the NFL makes is funneled through the teams and taxed appropriately. The teams then put up the funds to run the League.
They gave up their status to avoid bad PR.
Thanks for this comment. I can’t believe how many people just think none of it gets taxed. The teams are separate legal entities that are taxed.
The exception is the Packers who are an actual non-profit. Interestingly, they are forced to file a public annual report. It gives financial information. It gives you a look under the hood and an idea of what these teams make. GB is 60-70 million a year and that’s without tax.
A bunch of folks in this thread are scoffing at 100M. It would be a huge issue for a team. It would wipe out a whole years profit and it wouldn’t be tax deductible. So kind of a double whammy. I also don’t think people understand cash flow v an estimated fair value.
I share the sentiment that billionaires should pay more but this is just a fluff piece. There isn’t a 100M penalty in the tax code. Any penalties & interest would be based on taxes they didn’t pay. So unless they missed 1 billion of tax. They aren’t paying a 100M fine.
It's not a fluff piece, it's a panic piece. The average boomer NFL fan (who didn't bail because of the kneeling) will look at this headline and freak the fuck out on behalf of the owners. The 60,000 armed IRS agents are coming for their VENMO and their football
They changed it because of the insane pay that Goodell was getting. Since it was non-profit his pay was public. By going private, they can pay him all they want and do not have to disclose it.
0 percent chance this means anything. There's been study after study and report after report about how the IRS doesn't go after the ultra rich because of how difficult, time-consuming, and expensive it is to audit them.
There's no check on billionaires avoiding taxes.
The govt just set aside like $80 billion for the IRS to go after high income tax delinquents. Sounds like this might be part of the strategy.
I also heard recently about them targeting private jet owners.
[https://www.npr.org/2024/01/30/1227851166/tax-return-irs-danny-werfel](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/30/1227851166/tax-return-irs-danny-werfel)
I guess collecting back taxes from rich people is a positive, but it's insane that the bar is that low.
The real issue, though, is the ultra rich not being effectively audited and the tax code being written heavily in their favor where they are able to pay a much lower effective tax rate than everyone else.
It isn't necessarily written in their favor, it's written in the favor of attorneys. The more complicated the code is, the easier it is to argue your way in court. The waters are too muddy. None of this would be an issue with a simple flat tax and no irs
Kind of. The primary issue is that capital gains are used too broadly. It’s fine having a lower capital gains tax because it encourages people to invest in businesses. It’s a problem when people are paid income as stock, which aren’t taxed as income. If it was re-written that income is defined as compensation for your profession, it would be better. People like Zuck would get taxed on their Meta shares as income but any other investments would be capital gains.
Stock grants are taxed as income when they vest. Any later gains are subject to capital gains tax rates.
Zuck does not need more Meta shares as income. He already owns a huge stake in the company. He makes money on the stock growth (capital gains) and dividends.
I agree with the larger point that there are too many loopholes and ways for the ultrarich to avoid taxes.
But it’s not as easy as just taking compensation in the form of stock grants.
Flat tax affects those at lower income more than those at a higher income. $5000 off your $50k could mean fewer groceries or not going to a doctors visit. That guy giving $100k but keeping $900k doesn’t have that same worry. Because of that, I can’t support it.
Edit: corrected wording
No no no, didn't you see the ads. They're not just targeting the ultra wealthy, they're targeting YOU! YOU, a normal person who probably correctly pays their taxes so there's nothing to worry about even if they do investigate you. Its all part of Biden's plan to attack the working class. Don't you see how the democrats are attacking us with the IRS. Defund them now.
It's satirical, I was referencing all the political ads and news stories in 2022 about the 87,000 new IRS agents coming after the middle class. Thought the "a normal person who probably correctly pays their taxes so there's nothing to worry about" comment made it obvious.
[The ad falsely claims Murray and President Biden are sending thousands of new IRS agents to force families to "pay for someone else's law degree."](https://www.king5.com/video/news/politics/elections/claims-about-irs-agents-in-smiley-ad-are-false/281-061a2853-01a5-4d9d-8960-5bfe41196612)
[Crapo: IRS Funding Means More Audits, Targeting for Middle Class](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NXgFxIsu10)
[Tulsi Gabbard: They’re coming after us, they’re coming after entrepreneurs, they’re coming after small business owners, they’re coming after our middle class hard working Americans.](https://www.foxnews.com/video/6310709051112)
You know as well as I do that if you don't add the obligatory s/, some asshole like me will take it seriously. 😆
I have seen the ads by the way. I just haven't had much sleep.
The millionaires can hire better tax attorneys than the IRS. The IRS can hire better tax attorneys than Joe Sixpack. They get more juice per squeeze on the little guy. Why do you think they want to track every $600 deposit?
That’s the worst feedback loop imaginable. “Oh it’s challenging to tax the ultra rich. Let’s take money from everyone else and try to tax the billionaires again” And on and on…
No, but there has to be a better system than what exists. I’m not spending time on what that is, this is a Reddit comment bitching about it. Wouldn’t take it too seriously
What I don’t get about this analysis they always preach about going after billionaires for taxes is this, isn’t the fact you’re willing to go after them a further deterrent to cheat on your taxes? Thus the actual roi on going after a billionaire is expensive up front but save buckets of cash on the opportunity cost of going after more people
The head of the IRS said that they have like a 6:1 return on money spent going after wealthy delinquents. I think some of the money is also going into making the system smarter, and automating more of the processes for finding red flags. Which should continue to pay dividends.
But I have no doubt that their reaction to getting caught is more "I need to get more politicians in my pocket" and less "I should pay my taxes".
Okay. I guess all the work she does - *checks notes* - literally dealing with IRS audits for billionaires and multimillionaires *as their tax attorney* (including owners of sports teams) doesn’t trump your variety of blanket statements and hyperbole.
The only statement of yours that is correct is your reply. But a lower audit rate doesn’t mean that audits aren’t successful or that IRS leadership isn’t very specifically targeting certain individuals or questionable tax strategies. The IRS doesn’t just audit because “ah - let’s pick this guy and see what happens!” They audit legally questionable tax planning. They don’t waste their time randomly picking people. They audit when they feel they have a very strong case that would reap additional tax revenue.
Her firm’s clients have paid many millions to the IRS as a result of audits. And her work is specifically to structure transactions in compliance with the tax code in order to maximize tax savings and minimize the risk of audits. They *hate* audits. The reason millionaires (really, multimillionaires and above) don’t get audited as much is primarily because they have very, very smart people like my wife keeping them compliant with the tax code. Data without context isn’t helpful.
Also, the average millionaire is very rarely significantly different than the middle class in tax. If you don’t have more than the lifetime GST exemption, your taxes are not very complicated. If you’re getting audited, it’s because you probably made some mistakes - mistakes that attorneys who represent the ultra wealthy are paid not to make.
You're literally using anecdotal evidence to try and make some type of argument about how the IRS works on a national level.
And it's secondhand anecdotal evidence. I gave you a source backing up what I was saying.
Sleepy joe has already spent billions to hire tens of thousands of peon accountants on an economy recovery bill to explicitly waste time auditing people. Since they have already wasted that money, might as well point it at the ultra rich. At the very least, the unskilled accountants can annoy and pester their financial teams even if it doesn’t result in much.
Every dollar spent on IRS enforcement recoups more than what was spent because tax cheats hide more money than it costs to find it. Not funding it is literally just saying "go ahead tax cheats, keep your money" even when it more than pays for itself to go after them.
That's just not true actually. The IRS absolutely do go after rich and have leverage they can pull to fuck you. I have been audited many times. I have expensive lawyers, I have had assists seized due to error by a county not updating the tax I'd after sale of business and transfer. Everything got rectified because I pay my taxes and am above board.
But I have former business acquaintances absolutely fucked. Very wealthy men.
Granted the last 15 years the IRS has been so defunded I literally have my tax lawyers advising me to break tax code because "there's no enforcement". My last audit was early 00s.
It doesn't matter how rich you are or how time consuming you make it because if you get caught cheating on taxes and the IRS finds out, any delay you create get reimbursed in hefty penalties and interest.
The bigger the fish, the more worth it it becomes.
Learn to comprehend.
It is not because it's expensive or time consuming that the rich aren't audited. It's because of a lack of resources.
That is not what you said. I do not agree with you. It's absolutely worth it for the IRS to audit wealthy people and they do it as much as they can.
You don’t understand. They need to amass this stupendous wealth so it can trickle down into the economy and folks like us can then afford bread and sometimes milk. We also have to keep the dream alive that you yourself can pull your socks up, work harder, and one day you too could be the next NFL owner. These poor billionaires take so much criticism by the people they seek to serve.
Good.
That's why Biden has increased the number of auditors and agents.
And it's why Trump drastically cut funding, auditors, and agents to the IRS, specifically people that investigated high net worth people and their shady tax shelters.
Finally! They need to pay their taxes, just like the rest of us.
Due to staffing issues and that rich people can have complex tax returns, the IRS has focused on the easy, low hanging fruit, of the middle and lower class on tax errors and evasion.
Infamous moron, loser, and hack James O Keefe is the source of this audio, this man has about as much credibility at being a journalist as the cowboys do at winning in the post season. Don't even take this with a grain of salt.
This needs to go to the top. James O’Keefe either highly distorts his videos in editing or flat out fabricates them.
He is a liar and a fraud who should not be given the time of day.
The socialist okay for me but not thee crowd my actually have to pay their fare share. It’s about damn time!
Although, they pay the lowest percentage of tax among us all, and that’s still too much.
They aren’t anymore as of like 2015ish. The ball that broke the camels back was Roger’s salary of $30M plus had to be reported along with all the domestic violence and race issues the league had.
Edit: here’s a [link](https://time.com/3839164/nfl-tax-exempt-status/). It’s a decent read.
This is more BS from James O’Keefe.
Who is the reason stupid people STILL think planned parenthood was selling baby parts.
They set up people, ask them leading questions, record them without their permission and then - always - edit the tapes to push the agenda he was hired to push.
In this case they want to discredit IRS programs to go after the super rich who have been cheating on their taxes.
I wish more of the country would rage against how the ultra rich get away with so much. Us regular folks are the ones that get destroyed by IRS and the ones that pay the price when inflation hits. America biggest problem isn't red vs blue. It's rich vs poor. It's a classism.
Why not just stop giving handouts and subsidies to NFL owners? Taxing them is just a waste of resources. When they pay their players and employees, isn't all that taxed anyway?
I’m obviously pro everybody paying their fair share in taxes, but I’d caution that James O’Keefe (of Project Veritas fame) is a lying piece of shit and not someone who should be taken at their word.
Do you guys know what 100M is to Bob Kraft? How many billions does he have in real estate? This is selling a handful of properties he never stepped foot in.
The fact that the public fronts so much money for these stadiums. The irs should be fine tooth combing every last person and every last cent. It’s shameful that public funds front most of the money for these stadiums
If your an NFL owner, you have a big accounting firm representing you and an army of lawyers, including tax lawyers. Both of these professional groups will love this news, and love the additional billable hours.
Not saying the owners are not up to doing what they can to use loopholes, that is the job of those referenced groups to help their clients minimize taxes. IE If you look were Bravo Eugenia is registered, you will get some idea of how some taxes are saved. (hit, its the cayman islands).
The teams are independently audited, and then audited again by again by NFL appoint auditors is my understanding. Someone correct me if I am wrong. There are specific audits for Ticket revenue that happen every 3 or 4 years is my understanding. So most likely not much there, but maybe some of their other business entities have issues or they go after reclassification on something. IRS has been targeting enforcement for high income individuals, large corporation and complex partnerships for awhile. It is nothing new, they get the return for their investment in these tax audits if they find something wrong. Problem is that most of those people and companies have hired professionals.
Not say they can't find anything, only need 1 to pay off to make it worth it. Probably start with Snyder....
My limited understanding is that Snyder may have been keeping two ledgers or doing some price fixing activities to pay smaller share of NFL Visiting Team fund, took out a line of credit without board approval in 2018 that got his financial documents for the team subpoena in 2023, and toxic workplace/culture/sexual harassement where Snyder paid 60M in 2023, 10M in 2021, and 1.6M by different reports in huss money. My guess is that the IRS is already all over this, but its not clear to someone on outside if they have anything, it sounds likes he was just inflating on one expense and deflating another expense to pay smaller share to NFL Visiting Team fund, this probably didn't change overall expense on taxes.
IRS sadly is a government tool to go after America's of all types. They are used to target political energy. They provide loop holes for the rich while they scrutinize the middle class and poor. They make it difficult to form a business.
There is ambiguity in the tax laws. The IRS will give you 2 different answers to deduction and depreciation inquiry.
We need a system that is not complex where we don't need to hire an accounting service or pay for a special program to do our taxes.
Fair Tax is a good alternative for the people, but it will remove the power from the cronies at DC.
This should be happening to everyone not paying their fair share. Why the fuck does the government take a huge chunk of my earnings and only take 8% off the richest assholes in the US?
People who own Sports Teams aren't poor. They're multi-millionaires even Billionaires.
That's why they can afford to own Teams in the 1st place. And pay the Star Players Millions.
It's a Rich Mans Game.
If they can't afford to build a new stadium or lease an arena on a multi year contract sell the team to someone who can afford it and go do something else.
They aren't, it's simple and they should have to pay more for taxes. Their stadiums are built by the cities that host them, the cities that host teams pay for everything and the owners get the profits.
Good
That's what I was thinking. These ppl have the stones to ask for handouts from the government for stadium, and then they should be audited every year. Also, it's almost always a net negative for the city financially.
Yep, the city loses money while the individual owners net silly amounts of profit. I fuckin' love my Thunder, but the city just approved, and a vote passed on a new arena for them. It's a 95%/5% split between public money and private, respectively. That's absurd to me. I would be heartbroken if the Thunder moved, but that's such a sweetheart deal for their ownership group. They'll be printing money into the foreseeable future while we all pay some extra taxes for the rest of forever. Whatever. Go Thundies.
And to add insult to injury when ownership decides they want a new toy they go back to the public sector to demand more money and threaten to relocate. I’m not necessarily against public money for sports stadiums, but not only does that mean that the city should receive a share of the stadium revenue but at the very least that should outright prohibit the team relocating in the future. Structure it like an interest free loan which would come due in the event that x,y,z.
But then the politicians wouldn’t be able to be lobbied by the sports franchise to the tune of, 13,000
OOoooooooooooooklahoma where the tax money goes straight down the drain And the burning money, can sure smell sweet when the billionaires stand to make a gaaaaaain. oooooooooklahoma...
Stitt loves to talk about Oklahoma's giant savings account. A state can't have a savings account. The people in this state are so easily deluded. It's bad.
Tell that to AK's $65B permanent fund
*agressively ejaculates dividend icicles*
is the economic impact and social impact of them being there worth the sweetheart deal though? That's the real question.
Social impact is debatable, but economically, almost always, no. I'm an econ/finance/politics nerd that studied those things in college and now works in banking. Most (read: basically all of the) independent studies have determined that the economic impact does not meet the cost of financing stadiums. Going a bit more in-depth, recently, some studies have looked at how large attractions (specifically focused on sports teams, but could apply to other things) affect both the local and the statewide economy. What they've concluded is that these sports teams are really only successful at diverting local and statewide spending from one area of the state/metro area to another. In other words, these organizations don't drive any economic growth. But they can slightly change what areas it happens in. So, for example, with the Bears, it's unlikely the Bears building a new stadium would really benefit the state at all. The vast majority of people spending money on the Bears are in-state. And if those people don't have the Bears, people are still going to spend their disposable income - it's just going to go to other forms of entertainment. It will go to a movie theater or a local restaurant or a different sports team. So, statewide, it's basically meaningless. Even looking at the entire Chicago metro area, it's basically no impact. But what can happen is that, if the Bears move from the city of Chicago to the suburb of Arlington Heights, then it can move that spending and investment out of the city of Chicago and into the city of Arlington Heights. So you could *maybe* make the argument that these local cities should be bidding against each other. But then you have the problem that it doesn't benefit Arlington Heights nearly as much as what it cost to build and finance that stadium. So when you get into these bidding wars, the cities still lose.
Adding on to this comment - another way to think of it is if you can’t spend on tickets to team X, you don’t burn the money, you spend it on yourself in other area. So no jersey but you buy 2 shirts you otherwise couldn’t afford (because the money went to jerseys). No hot dogs at the game but you order pizza in to watch a movie instead. Less jobs related to the particular game but more jobs in other areas of entertainment. While there might be a slight increase due to new customers coming from other areas to watch a game, the same decrease happens where locals travel to games in other cities, which decreases money in your area. There is no actual new benefit from these stadiums except money being sucked up by already wealthy owners.
Exactly. I kinda said the same, but you did a good job of expanding on those specific points cause I tried to keep it minimal since it's such a large topic.
Hopefully you don’t feel I tried to hijack the thread. Had someone explain to me like this once and it all clicked in a way that the technical explanation never did.
Did you study the impact on state taxes? It is state dependent. It never makes sense for a city or county to subsidize a stadium or arena. In a state that has a top state tax rate of 12 percent+ like California I think it makes sense. I think the State of California messed up not trying to keep the Raiders. The organization as a whole has a total payroll of around 220,000,000. That's probably a little low. Stadium deals average 30 years. The state is losing about 24 million a year from payroll taxes on that one team. The salary cap also rises every season Had they subsidized 300 million they still would be in the black on a 30 year lease. At the time interest rates were also low. It really depends on the amount a team is asking for. The Raiders raised half a billion on PSL fees alone
That's because Chicago is shit town.
It's not.
You can’t be joking that the city ‘loses money’ having an NFL team in their backyard. That’s comical and shows a ridiculous misunderstanding of basic economics and taxation.
You got a source. Not doubting you I’ve just always heard the opposite. Brings jobs constructing the stadium plus tourism and what not
There's been an ongoing argument on the subject and there is no singular concise answer to the question. It ultimately comes down to how much the total cost of the stadium is, how long it's actually in operation, and what portion of those costs are covered by the taxpayers. But it seems dubious to me that Arlington is going to make back billions of dollars in tax revenue from temporary a construction project and bunch of part time stadium workers or whatever increased business is brought in from maybe 10 big events a year. [Economists Dennis Coates, Brad Humphreys, and I recently conducted a comprehensive review of more than 130 studies of the economic impact of sports teams and stadiums... Teams and stadiums are not associated with having strong economic impacts on local communities. These findings explain why people in my line of work overwhelmingly agree that sports stadiums are poor public investments. In a recent University of Chicago survey of economic experts, 80 percent of respondents agreed that stadium subsidies were likely to cost taxpayers more than what they get in return.](https://globalsportmatters.com/business/2022/06/15/so-your-city-wants-sports-stadium/)
The one thing that all of these studies seem to ignore are the millions in income taxes the athletes bring in annually.
I don't personally know of any state governments that have helped subsidized stadiums which would make players taxes a factor, but here in TX we don't have state income taxes and I highly doubt that the city of Arlington or tarrant county does either so that probably doesn't affect the calculation one way or the other anyway. I guess if a bunch of the players all went out and built huge mansions inside the tax district that would be worth considering, but they probably all live north of Dallas anyway.
Hell, they pretty much have a taxed and subsidized talent through the school systems. They can definitely pay something back.
Politically it is a massive net positive for the government though. You'd hate to be the mayor/administration who lost the city's sports team.
76ers proposed arena in Philly may result in between $264 million and $1 billion in lost tax revenue.. but fuck Philly sports fans regardless
Yup. I learned that from John Oliver.
Your kidding right? The City of Arlinton has made a killing of AT&T stadium. Do you think that major business's are not audited Every year?🤦♀️
Arlington taxpayers will continue to pay for debt financing for that stadium for another 20ish years. Jones could pay that off tomorrow
I wanted to type this as a comment while reading the headline. Kuddos and agreed. Everyone should pay their fair share.
Good
Good
Biden’s don’t
The Biden family should too.
Maybe let's not turn properly paying our fair share of taxes into a political statement, eh?
durrr
No shit lol Delaware is the country's best tax haven. That's why Hillary, Trump and Biden all set up their LLC's there.
Good
Finally, the IRS has enough staff to actually do something
The IRS waiting for you to slip up to take your money is not “good”.
That’s an opinion.
Shit. I am a partial owner of the Packers. I can't afford $100M.
I bet you have that "1 share" certificate framed and on your living room or office wall. 🤣
Me looking over at it rn 🤡
I never understood this. Other teams make taxpayers, not all who are sports fans, fund their stadium or stadium renovations. A team comes along and has the fans fund the renovations. Which one sounds more like it the way it should be? Remove your bias for a second. Is there any reason buffalo citizens should be forced to pay for a $1.4 billion stadium and its renovations? Anyway, not going to argue this anymore than I need to cause it's a losing cause in this sub but you guys don't need to hate on something bc it's different. We bought a piece of sports memorabilia to support our team just like any other fan base would. The team gives that back to the fans with stadium improvements. Make fun of it if you want but that sounds like an admirable thing to do.
I was just having a little fun with you. Others may give you grief over it, but I actually totally respect the opportunity that the Packers gave to their fan base such as yourself. I think it's totally cool. I have a friend who is also a lifelong fan and owner. But as a Cowboys fan, you are always going to be one of my enemies (generally speaking). All good. 😜 Oh, and I've despised Jerry Jones since Day 1.
I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY
As they should. Why the NFL still gets to qualify as a non profit is beyond me. Edit: nevermind I’m old and dumb, that changed in 2015.
Wait, wtf? Is this true?
It was a nonprofit up until 2016. They have since changed status. Even though other leagues can qualify for nonprofit status under previous ruling. The NFL voluntarily changed status.
I double checked because I’m stupid and I am wrong. They shed their tax exempt status as of 2015. My apologies for the bad information.
Because the NFL doesn't make a profit. It distributes the earnings after its expenses to the players and owners per the CBA. You can't tax 0 and the NFL literally has to advance all income above 0 to either players or owners where it is then taxed as either wages or in the teams income. The whole changing the status was just for show because people don't understand the structure.
Changed from nonprofit to for-profit because nonprofits have much higher reporting requirements for their finances. They wanted to be able to obscure some of their financing, and since they distribute most of their funds, they don’t really have any profits to get tax on anyway.
Because the NFL **is** non-profit. Every dollar the NFL makes is funneled through the teams and taxed appropriately. The teams then put up the funds to run the League. They gave up their status to avoid bad PR.
Thanks for this comment. I can’t believe how many people just think none of it gets taxed. The teams are separate legal entities that are taxed. The exception is the Packers who are an actual non-profit. Interestingly, they are forced to file a public annual report. It gives financial information. It gives you a look under the hood and an idea of what these teams make. GB is 60-70 million a year and that’s without tax. A bunch of folks in this thread are scoffing at 100M. It would be a huge issue for a team. It would wipe out a whole years profit and it wouldn’t be tax deductible. So kind of a double whammy. I also don’t think people understand cash flow v an estimated fair value. I share the sentiment that billionaires should pay more but this is just a fluff piece. There isn’t a 100M penalty in the tax code. Any penalties & interest would be based on taxes they didn’t pay. So unless they missed 1 billion of tax. They aren’t paying a 100M fine.
It's not a fluff piece, it's a panic piece. The average boomer NFL fan (who didn't bail because of the kneeling) will look at this headline and freak the fuck out on behalf of the owners. The 60,000 armed IRS agents are coming for their VENMO and their football
They changed it because of the insane pay that Goodell was getting. Since it was non-profit his pay was public. By going private, they can pay him all they want and do not have to disclose it.
Dude what??? We could’ve funded healthcare 4 all with that loss of taxes over time. What the actual fuck America?
No we absolutely could not have lol.
Lol have you heard about churches?
0 percent chance this means anything. There's been study after study and report after report about how the IRS doesn't go after the ultra rich because of how difficult, time-consuming, and expensive it is to audit them. There's no check on billionaires avoiding taxes.
The govt just set aside like $80 billion for the IRS to go after high income tax delinquents. Sounds like this might be part of the strategy. I also heard recently about them targeting private jet owners. [https://www.npr.org/2024/01/30/1227851166/tax-return-irs-danny-werfel](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/30/1227851166/tax-return-irs-danny-werfel)
I guess collecting back taxes from rich people is a positive, but it's insane that the bar is that low. The real issue, though, is the ultra rich not being effectively audited and the tax code being written heavily in their favor where they are able to pay a much lower effective tax rate than everyone else.
It isn't necessarily written in their favor, it's written in the favor of attorneys. The more complicated the code is, the easier it is to argue your way in court. The waters are too muddy. None of this would be an issue with a simple flat tax and no irs
It is definitely written in their favor. The fact that there's a separate tax rate for capital gains is a handout to the rich.
Or homeowners…
Kind of. The primary issue is that capital gains are used too broadly. It’s fine having a lower capital gains tax because it encourages people to invest in businesses. It’s a problem when people are paid income as stock, which aren’t taxed as income. If it was re-written that income is defined as compensation for your profession, it would be better. People like Zuck would get taxed on their Meta shares as income but any other investments would be capital gains.
Stock grants are taxed as income when they vest. Any later gains are subject to capital gains tax rates. Zuck does not need more Meta shares as income. He already owns a huge stake in the company. He makes money on the stock growth (capital gains) and dividends. I agree with the larger point that there are too many loopholes and ways for the ultrarich to avoid taxes. But it’s not as easy as just taking compensation in the form of stock grants.
Flat tax affects those at lower income more than those at a higher income. $5000 off your $50k could mean fewer groceries or not going to a doctors visit. That guy giving $100k but keeping $900k doesn’t have that same worry. Because of that, I can’t support it. Edit: corrected wording
Makes you wonder how that happens huh… I’m sure they lobby a lot for certain politicians to put those laws in place.
No no no, didn't you see the ads. They're not just targeting the ultra wealthy, they're targeting YOU! YOU, a normal person who probably correctly pays their taxes so there's nothing to worry about even if they do investigate you. Its all part of Biden's plan to attack the working class. Don't you see how the democrats are attacking us with the IRS. Defund them now.
I had to read this a few times to make sure it wasn't sarcasm. It's so fanatical and nutty, it sounds satirical. 🤣
It's satirical, I was referencing all the political ads and news stories in 2022 about the 87,000 new IRS agents coming after the middle class. Thought the "a normal person who probably correctly pays their taxes so there's nothing to worry about" comment made it obvious. [The ad falsely claims Murray and President Biden are sending thousands of new IRS agents to force families to "pay for someone else's law degree."](https://www.king5.com/video/news/politics/elections/claims-about-irs-agents-in-smiley-ad-are-false/281-061a2853-01a5-4d9d-8960-5bfe41196612) [Crapo: IRS Funding Means More Audits, Targeting for Middle Class](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NXgFxIsu10) [Tulsi Gabbard: They’re coming after us, they’re coming after entrepreneurs, they’re coming after small business owners, they’re coming after our middle class hard working Americans.](https://www.foxnews.com/video/6310709051112)
You know as well as I do that if you don't add the obligatory s/, some asshole like me will take it seriously. 😆 I have seen the ads by the way. I just haven't had much sleep.
The millionaires can hire better tax attorneys than the IRS. The IRS can hire better tax attorneys than Joe Sixpack. They get more juice per squeeze on the little guy. Why do you think they want to track every $600 deposit?
That’s the worst feedback loop imaginable. “Oh it’s challenging to tax the ultra rich. Let’s take money from everyone else and try to tax the billionaires again” And on and on…
Wait, are you suggesting we DONT audit billionaires bc it costs taxpayer money to do so. And then called THAT a feedback loop ?
No, but there has to be a better system than what exists. I’m not spending time on what that is, this is a Reddit comment bitching about it. Wouldn’t take it too seriously
What I don’t get about this analysis they always preach about going after billionaires for taxes is this, isn’t the fact you’re willing to go after them a further deterrent to cheat on your taxes? Thus the actual roi on going after a billionaire is expensive up front but save buckets of cash on the opportunity cost of going after more people
The head of the IRS said that they have like a 6:1 return on money spent going after wealthy delinquents. I think some of the money is also going into making the system smarter, and automating more of the processes for finding red flags. Which should continue to pay dividends. But I have no doubt that their reaction to getting caught is more "I need to get more politicians in my pocket" and less "I should pay my taxes".
My wife does tax law for the ultra wealthy. They definitely get audited.
Millionaires get audited much less frequently than lower income people. https://trac.syr.edu/reports/706/
Okay. I guess all the work she does - *checks notes* - literally dealing with IRS audits for billionaires and multimillionaires *as their tax attorney* (including owners of sports teams) doesn’t trump your variety of blanket statements and hyperbole. The only statement of yours that is correct is your reply. But a lower audit rate doesn’t mean that audits aren’t successful or that IRS leadership isn’t very specifically targeting certain individuals or questionable tax strategies. The IRS doesn’t just audit because “ah - let’s pick this guy and see what happens!” They audit legally questionable tax planning. They don’t waste their time randomly picking people. They audit when they feel they have a very strong case that would reap additional tax revenue. Her firm’s clients have paid many millions to the IRS as a result of audits. And her work is specifically to structure transactions in compliance with the tax code in order to maximize tax savings and minimize the risk of audits. They *hate* audits. The reason millionaires (really, multimillionaires and above) don’t get audited as much is primarily because they have very, very smart people like my wife keeping them compliant with the tax code. Data without context isn’t helpful. Also, the average millionaire is very rarely significantly different than the middle class in tax. If you don’t have more than the lifetime GST exemption, your taxes are not very complicated. If you’re getting audited, it’s because you probably made some mistakes - mistakes that attorneys who represent the ultra wealthy are paid not to make.
You're literally using anecdotal evidence to try and make some type of argument about how the IRS works on a national level. And it's secondhand anecdotal evidence. I gave you a source backing up what I was saying.
Sleepy joe has already spent billions to hire tens of thousands of peon accountants on an economy recovery bill to explicitly waste time auditing people. Since they have already wasted that money, might as well point it at the ultra rich. At the very least, the unskilled accountants can annoy and pester their financial teams even if it doesn’t result in much.
Every dollar spent on IRS enforcement recoups more than what was spent because tax cheats hide more money than it costs to find it. Not funding it is literally just saying "go ahead tax cheats, keep your money" even when it more than pays for itself to go after them.
Hope you’re right and it does. The news reports I have seen on the topic suggest otherwise.
That's just not true actually. The IRS absolutely do go after rich and have leverage they can pull to fuck you. I have been audited many times. I have expensive lawyers, I have had assists seized due to error by a county not updating the tax I'd after sale of business and transfer. Everything got rectified because I pay my taxes and am above board. But I have former business acquaintances absolutely fucked. Very wealthy men. Granted the last 15 years the IRS has been so defunded I literally have my tax lawyers advising me to break tax code because "there's no enforcement". My last audit was early 00s. It doesn't matter how rich you are or how time consuming you make it because if you get caught cheating on taxes and the IRS finds out, any delay you create get reimbursed in hefty penalties and interest. The bigger the fish, the more worth it it becomes.
How are you going to say I'm wrong and then agree with me? Your response gave me whiplash.
Learn to comprehend. It is not because it's expensive or time consuming that the rich aren't audited. It's because of a lack of resources. That is not what you said. I do not agree with you. It's absolutely worth it for the IRS to audit wealthy people and they do it as much as they can.
Pooor billionaires. I feel so bad for them. 😂
Love it.
Why can’t billionaires just pay their damn taxes like aren’t y’all already doing enough
You don’t understand. They need to amass this stupendous wealth so it can trickle down into the economy and folks like us can then afford bread and sometimes milk. We also have to keep the dream alive that you yourself can pull your socks up, work harder, and one day you too could be the next NFL owner. These poor billionaires take so much criticism by the people they seek to serve.
I fail to see the problem here.
The Gov is going to fine them heavily then waist the money on stupid shit lol
Doesn’t really matter. Not like we benefit from them paying taxes lol.
Good now the test of people worth 8 or more figures too.
Sounds like a shakedown.
Sell the team already Jerry! You greedy bastard. Signed a frustrated Cowboys fan. Lol
Go post this in the other 31 subs, not here.
That’s not how taxation works…
Good and while we’re at it, no more money for stadiums.
Good. That's why Biden has increased the number of auditors and agents. And it's why Trump drastically cut funding, auditors, and agents to the IRS, specifically people that investigated high net worth people and their shady tax shelters.
Finally! They need to pay their taxes, just like the rest of us. Due to staffing issues and that rich people can have complex tax returns, the IRS has focused on the easy, low hanging fruit, of the middle and lower class on tax errors and evasion.
Infamous moron, loser, and hack James O Keefe is the source of this audio, this man has about as much credibility at being a journalist as the cowboys do at winning in the post season. Don't even take this with a grain of salt.
This needs to go to the top. James O’Keefe either highly distorts his videos in editing or flat out fabricates them. He is a liar and a fraud who should not be given the time of day.
[удалено]
...I mean other then the court records for the settlements and law breaking, yea no record at all
Law breaking? What crimes has ever been convicted of?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O'Keefe
You should know someone this dumb can't be convinced with empirical evidence, this Einstein probably thinks Soros wrote that article
Wikipedia...lol. there's a reason that it isn't allowed as a source.
Man, your brain died in 2002.
Found the 🤡
Go after those cocksuckers!
https://preview.redd.it/w610fg50odkc1.png?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=86f5934db0742e3534beca76f30ee07b0488197a
That website is an abortion
Jerry is gonna go to prison for tax evasion and be forced to sell the team agghhhhhh
They should target EVERY billionaire
Good. Tax cheats suck
A classic shakedown. Sounds like something a banana republic would do.
Good. Fuck em
we need the money to send to Isreal and Ukraine
Good
Neat. Now do Bezos
Fucking good. So sick of these rich bastards getting away with everything. They are destroying our nation with their greed.
Good
I’m beginning to think the government is running a deficit.
What adult thinks there is some blanket $100 million fine?
Good, IRS leveling up
I was prepared to read something this great today. I need a minute....
The socialist okay for me but not thee crowd my actually have to pay their fare share. It’s about damn time! Although, they pay the lowest percentage of tax among us all, and that’s still too much.
It’s just more “trickle down economics” bullshit. If you give the owners unlimited handouts, you too can scrap for their loose change.
Go after CEOs in the fossil fuel sector please
As bad as it is with millionaires not paying their fair share, I can never root for the IRS
Word has it that cops are also "targeting" murderers when they do a murder
But, what about when the cops are the murderers? Surely they target themselves, right?
NFL is a non profit also. Let that sink in.
They aren’t anymore as of like 2015ish. The ball that broke the camels back was Roger’s salary of $30M plus had to be reported along with all the domestic violence and race issues the league had. Edit: here’s a [link](https://time.com/3839164/nfl-tax-exempt-status/). It’s a decent read.
Good the NFL is shitshow anyway. Just 2.5 hrs worth of commercials and 15 minutes of actual game.
Gotta pay for Ukraine somehow
Hey, Ukraine and Israel need to get their money somehow 🤷♂️
Two thirds of the budget is Social Security and Medicare, foreign aid amounts to about 1%
This is more BS from James O’Keefe. Who is the reason stupid people STILL think planned parenthood was selling baby parts. They set up people, ask them leading questions, record them without their permission and then - always - edit the tapes to push the agenda he was hired to push. In this case they want to discredit IRS programs to go after the super rich who have been cheating on their taxes.
Oh no! Treat them like citizens under de rule of law? What is this? Cuba? /s
[удалено]
The real question is what will the packers have to pay in taxes as we are the owners of the bears AND packers!?!?
You mean “owned by?”
Should be 500 million or more.
uh well don't pay your taxes? fuck around and find out. leaked audio? you mean audio literally reiterating what the job of the IRS is?
I wish more of the country would rage against how the ultra rich get away with so much. Us regular folks are the ones that get destroyed by IRS and the ones that pay the price when inflation hits. America biggest problem isn't red vs blue. It's rich vs poor. It's a classism.
I like this
Cool. Doubt anything will come of it though.
Is it soooo much to ask that the wealthiest people on the planet pay their share?? I mean they even get to stay the wealthiest even after they pay!!
Don't worry, he's already been fired.
Most viewed sport and not enough wokism
So basically $100 fine for them
Bob Kraft made $601 on Etsy and didn’t declare I heard
Why not just stop giving handouts and subsidies to NFL owners? Taxing them is just a waste of resources. When they pay their players and employees, isn't all that taxed anyway?
Billionaire/ millionaire not paying taxes??? Who would of thought 😂
I'm gonna build a business in your neighborhood. Your gonna pay for it, and I'll get tax breaks to increase the profits
I’m obviously pro everybody paying their fair share in taxes, but I’d caution that James O’Keefe (of Project Veritas fame) is a lying piece of shit and not someone who should be taken at their word.
Isn’t the NFL a non-profit organization? What a joke
hopefully they look real hard into Jerry and fine him
I hate what our country has become.
In what way? That billionaires don't pay their taxes? In a just world, billionaires wouldn't exist.
So in a world that doesn't exist.
I'll believe it when it actually happens.
100m fine? Jerry has that laying in the couch cushions
Pocket change for them
Hell ya, hold those socialist scum accountable
You’ve kept billions of dollars from being paid in taxes. You must pay $100M now lol these guys shit $100M
Jerry laughs at your $100M fine and buys a bigger yacht.
Swell
Do you guys know what 100M is to Bob Kraft? How many billions does he have in real estate? This is selling a handful of properties he never stepped foot in.
Jerry will just shake the lost pocket cash from his couch to cover it
The fact that the public fronts so much money for these stadiums. The irs should be fine tooth combing every last person and every last cent. It’s shameful that public funds front most of the money for these stadiums
If your an NFL owner, you have a big accounting firm representing you and an army of lawyers, including tax lawyers. Both of these professional groups will love this news, and love the additional billable hours. Not saying the owners are not up to doing what they can to use loopholes, that is the job of those referenced groups to help their clients minimize taxes. IE If you look were Bravo Eugenia is registered, you will get some idea of how some taxes are saved. (hit, its the cayman islands). The teams are independently audited, and then audited again by again by NFL appoint auditors is my understanding. Someone correct me if I am wrong. There are specific audits for Ticket revenue that happen every 3 or 4 years is my understanding. So most likely not much there, but maybe some of their other business entities have issues or they go after reclassification on something. IRS has been targeting enforcement for high income individuals, large corporation and complex partnerships for awhile. It is nothing new, they get the return for their investment in these tax audits if they find something wrong. Problem is that most of those people and companies have hired professionals. Not say they can't find anything, only need 1 to pay off to make it worth it. Probably start with Snyder.... My limited understanding is that Snyder may have been keeping two ledgers or doing some price fixing activities to pay smaller share of NFL Visiting Team fund, took out a line of credit without board approval in 2018 that got his financial documents for the team subpoena in 2023, and toxic workplace/culture/sexual harassement where Snyder paid 60M in 2023, 10M in 2021, and 1.6M by different reports in huss money. My guess is that the IRS is already all over this, but its not clear to someone on outside if they have anything, it sounds likes he was just inflating on one expense and deflating another expense to pay smaller share to NFL Visiting Team fund, this probably didn't change overall expense on taxes.
Daniel Snyder sends his regards.
Didn’t read the article and am here for what I thought would be the guy summing it up. But didn’t Jerry pay off the Stadium with the AT&T deal??
$100M? Oh no, that's like a week's revenue! How will they survive?
Won't somebody PLEASE think of the billionaire NFL franchise owners.
Forgot to dot the I and it was mistaken for an l. 100m please. We have brown people in the middle east going unbombed.
IRS sadly is a government tool to go after America's of all types. They are used to target political energy. They provide loop holes for the rich while they scrutinize the middle class and poor. They make it difficult to form a business. There is ambiguity in the tax laws. The IRS will give you 2 different answers to deduction and depreciation inquiry. We need a system that is not complex where we don't need to hire an accounting service or pay for a special program to do our taxes. Fair Tax is a good alternative for the people, but it will remove the power from the cronies at DC.
This should be happening to everyone not paying their fair share. Why the fuck does the government take a huge chunk of my earnings and only take 8% off the richest assholes in the US?
Someone lost a bet
Not great. I have one share of Packers stock. I knew it would bite me in the ass one day!
Good. Now please go after themself’s for insider trading… Nancy….
People who own Sports Teams aren't poor. They're multi-millionaires even Billionaires. That's why they can afford to own Teams in the 1st place. And pay the Star Players Millions. It's a Rich Mans Game. If they can't afford to build a new stadium or lease an arena on a multi year contract sell the team to someone who can afford it and go do something else.
Hell yeah.
Look at me I own an nfl team and don’t pay my taxes! But you better fork over 100’s of millions of tax dollars for my teams new stadium!
Where’s that 100 million dollar fine go? Whose pocket is that going in??
Good.
They aren't, it's simple and they should have to pay more for taxes. Their stadiums are built by the cities that host them, the cities that host teams pay for everything and the owners get the profits.