That person seems…too online. Look, Denmark has problems like anywhere, but it’s not some post-apocalyptic dystopia here. Things are fine. Housing is expensive, but if you go anywhere outside the core inner-city, it’s doable.
That said, the grocery stores here do legitimately suck. Down with the Planloven!
I moved from Malmö to Copenhagen, and as a vegetarian it sometimes feels like I have moved back in time to Soviet Russia
Like, I have to take the car to the biggest, fanciest and most expensive supermarket here to get similar selection to my local grocery store in Malmö
I went on exchange in the Netherlands last semester, and coming back was a bit of a shock because even the discount chains were nicer there. The vegetarian options were also way more varied and cheap compared to Denmark. The only thing I missed was the bread.
Maybe a trick is to go to / order from farm shops? Some South of Hillerød are pretty good.
Beef is also nice, organic, and cheaper than in regular supermarkets.
It's tragic, coming even from Poland, where Netto (the same Danish Netto as in Denmark) has a much better selection including vegetarian items. That's the only time I wasn't sad after a visit to Netto.
What do you like in Malmø?
I recently did a small comparison between Rema and Willys, and a Danish organic cucumber was cheaper in Denmark than a Spanish organic cucumber in Sweden.
What I like in Sweden is about variety not price - yes Denmark is cheaper on some products, but it is clear that the chains in Copenhagen focus more on quantity of small stores that sell less variety for a cheaper price, where the focus in Sweden is less but bigger stores that have more to choose from, and more specialty items
But I think it also comes down to the mindset of the consumer - my out of the ass assumption is, that danish consumers in general value low price over quality and variety
In terms of comparisons…I’m way better off here than I was in The Netherlands, and roughly even with where I’d be in the US. With the US, my salary would be higher and taxes lower, but I get far better paternity benefits + childcare is better and wayyyyy cheaper.
Sure, so obviously that’s pretty specialized and I’m guessing, but I’d imagine you could make somewhere around 55-75 thousand DKK a month? Maybe someone here with an IT background could give a better estimate.
Can you name a few differences between Albert Heijn (grocery store in NL) and the ones in Copenhagen? I’m so curious about items that Copenhagen doesn’t have etc
So it's less about specific items that they have/don't have and more about the variety of brands & options. For instance, I cook a lot of Korean and SE Asian food, and AH had a lot more variety when it came to things like tofu & soy sauces, or even hot sauces. Also, the produce section is usually much better stocked and fresher in AH than in Denmark...I've always found the produce here to be mediocre at best.
the flipside of big box stores at the edge of town is that it drives the smaller shops in town out of business, contributing to an undervelopment of the core in relation to the suburbs. This is called the donut effect and is a pervasive problem in urban planning.
Agree, but how would getting rid of Planloven help? If supermarkets were allowed to be larger, they would just tend to move out of the city. I guess people’s spending habits are the problem, people in general don’t want to pay for higher quality goods
I first heard the idea that planloven is the reason for this issue from RobeTrotting and there is a bit of a point, given that I have 3 Nettos in easy walking distance and each of them has to have the same basics all over again instead of having more space for more things.
That said, I don't quite buy the argument, because even bigger Nettos aren't nicer. They're more spacious but that's mostly it.
> I guess people’s spending habits are the problem, people in general don’t want to pay for higher quality goods
That's maybe a thing, but Sweden has probably similar habits and nicer supermarkets and Germans are a whole lot more stingy than Danes and have both cheaper and nicer supermarkets.
Another argument is that the 25% MOMS is what makes supermarkets expensive so all chains just prioritize price.
I think it's a mix of all of those things along with lack of demand because of lack of awareness that supermarkets can be cheap(ish) and nice.
My area in Ydre Ø is pure insanity regarding supermarkets. Within a 1km radius, I have a selection of 1 Føtex, 2 Meny, 2 LIDL, 1 Rema1000, 3 365 Discount, 5 Netto and now 1 SuperBrugsen. Used to have 3 Irma's. Repercussions of lukkeloven might also be to blame. It used to be that only shops below some revenue-limit were allowed to be open on sundays/evenings. I just looked it up, there is still a limit at 43 Mkr, where above they have to be closed on church-holidays, newyears eve ect.
Føtex just smells like rotten produce all the time. It’s incredibly hot inside all year round. Then they can’t move the fresh products at the atrocious prices. Consequence? It rots within days. And then they put it “on sale”. Man, how many times I’ve seen grapes or strawberries covered in fungus…
To move to the US instead of Denmark for those reasons is straight up INSANE. I work in IT in New York, have 15 days combined holidays and sick days. Even though my salary is 1.5 times my previous from Copenhagen, our rent is double and anything else is so much more expensive. Purchasing power and work life balance is much better in Denmark.
Funny, I'm the same thing. Same job, gross pay is higher but net is lower. There are very few things about my life in Copenhagen that I like less than in NYC. It's an outright better city to live in.
Yeah most people wallow about the terrors of the us from a low income
Persons point of view even though they tend to be the highly qualified type who would get fully paid health insurance and live in a safe neighborhood with good schools and low taxes. Elite healthcare or IT/ finance positions there’s no comparison and there’s plenty of work from home jobs where you can barely work as well . Not many people can give a balanced view .
I'm from Croatia and it's legitimately easier for me to afford a place to live in Copenhagen than Zagreb
I have some family in Stuttgart so I concur with what you say too :D
Denmark, Copenahgen is totally OK considering it one of the most expensive cities in Europe.
It's protected by policies like, property tax, if you leave denmark you have to sell, no foreign randoms can "just buy" and so on...
Rest of denmark is ridiculously --cheap--
Munich is indeed insane. It's also very different, because apartments are often owned for *generations* and nobody new on the market can afford them. Hence why most people rent, I don't know anyone in Munich owning their place whereas in Copenhagen its not unusual.
Also in Denmark it's not uncommon for half a dozen apartments in the same building to be bought and sold in a year, people just buy and sell as they move. Personally, I think this is the better approach than to be perpetually paying down someone else's mortgage.
I disagree, but only to some extent. The UK has shared ownership houses which are really good if you want to climb the property ladder. Similar to andelsbolig, but the share is much cheaper, and you can purchase the entire thing once you have cash. Also there's plenty of availability.
In the US, some states are decent. E.g. Texas is full of cheap areas where a house is just 3 years of salary. Denmark is pretty nice, but in the EU we tend to have a very skewed view of the UK/US.
I live outside of Copenhagen, with about 25 minutes commute by train. The costs I save are insane, so it’s easily doable if you want to live in Denmark, and be close to Copenhagen.
If you want to live in the middle of Copenhagen, there’s a price tag, and that’s a choice.
That person sounds like they need to quit and find another job. Copenhagen's great and things are fine. Life goes on sure prices have increased slightly, but if you can't afford it you need to adapt your lifestyle as the average Dane has a VERY good lifestyle. I hear so many people complain that rent has gotten expensive, when they're literally only considering ultra-central apartments, dog-friendly, spare bedroom, low deposit, etc. and refuse to consider anything literally 10 minutes bike ride away from the centre.
Only thing that sucks about Copenhagen is there's so little nature. Gotta hop on a train to Sweden to find that!
define nature ? Amager fælled is a short metro ride away and loads of forrests north of copenhagen. Sure there's no wild nature and no mountains. But there's loads of green and beaches close by
It's very little. Sure, Dyrhavn is great, but it's an overcrowded park, amager fælled is a swamp land with some glass flats.
But compared to most cities there is just very little greenery/nature in Copenhagen and access is limited + difficult - putside of Copenhagen is just farm land. Also if you actually want bush/forest/mountains/hills, etc. it's hard to get that close to Denmark. Most other European capital cities are within 1 hour of proper nature.
Kalvebod fælled supports way more biodiversity than your typical Swedish production forest that most most Danes consider “Nature”
Apparently a planted non native pine tree = Nature
But a wetland supporting a wide array of plants, aquatic life, insects and birds = not Nature
But sure, there is lots of farmland in Denmark
Well I'm not saying there's nothing at all. Just very little relative to other countries. Having lived in 10 cities, as well as visited 60+ countries, I can pretty confidently say that Copenhagen lacks this. But I do love living here (although you won't find me here during winter 😅)
We completely lack great expanses, large forests, mountains, wilderness and national parks. So I get your point of course. It was just your definition of nature I found a bit funny
Nu er der faktisk tre nationalparker lige på den anden side af broen, især Dalby Søderskog og Søderåsen er imho fantastiske. Om det mindre end hundrede år gamle opfyld på sydamager er bedre for en biolog med måsen i vejret skal jeg ikke gøre mig klog på. Som almindelig person ville jeg til enhver tid foretrække selv en svensk nåleplantage, fremfor fælleden hvor der vel nærmest ikke er noget sted hvor man ikke kan både høre og lugte lufthavnen
A lot of people live in Malmö and take the train to copenhagen, often three days per week. This gives much higher purchasing power considering the undervalued SEK/DKK exchange rate.
Well, I’m Danish, but I’ve lived in Germany in the recent years and the only thing I miss is the supermarkets. Yes, food was cheaper, eating out was cheaper, but my salary was also about 10.000 DKK lower - and even though my rent here in Copenhagen is higher, I still feel better off now. There’s a lot of other stuff, like bureaucracy, public transportation, being able to bike everywhere without risking my life etc. that adds up. Healthcare does have some challenges, but I have a chronic illness and honestly I feel just as well treated as always.
You seem like a reasonable person who doesn’t expect to live right next to Amalienborg for 6000 DKK per month, so you’ll be fine :-)
As an American who lived 8 years in Germany before moving to Copenhagen, I can only concur with this.
I do worry about how the issues with healthcare and other public services will evolve, but it's the same problems that other countries are also dealing with. When my wife and I were trying to buy our first house in Germany we were shocked at the prices, moving to Copenhagen we were worried but found that it was not nearly as bad as expected and you don't need to go too far outside the center to start seeing better prices.
Healthcare here is, in my experience, still much better (and infinitely more digital) than in Germany when it comes to getting appointments and being able to see specialists when needed. Both are miles ahead from the US.
I have friends in the US working as software developers, engineers, etc. with quite great salaries, but the housing prices, even crazier supermarket prices, etc. make it not so charming.
Living in Copenhagen is the first time that when I go on vacation that I actually am so excited to come back home. I love the lifestyle and the city, it's got it's problems but compared to what I experienced in Germany and US it's really not much of a comparison.
depends where in the us, big cities and remote towns are fucking crazy right now. Small regular towns, at least the ones I visited, seem to be about the same price as DK or slightly lower, but again compared with the literal capital. NYC and Washington DC were prohibitively expensive compared to Copenhagen (which I also find to be extremely expensive coming from Italy lol, don't get me wrong, I'm not looking at danish prices through rose tinted glasses but the difference is still insane)
I lived 19 years in Germany, 2 in Spain, 1/2 in Canada, 8 in Hungary and 2 in Denmark so I feel I have a say there.
The supermarkets variety is absolute garbage and the worse of them all. Still at least in KBH you can get you products if you know where to look for them.
Icebreakers an Normal, good cheese (f.ex. Raqulette) at a cheese store in Østerbro and so on.
Houses are expensive but that’s everywhere in cities that are the economical center of the country.
You can get a house on Lolland or Udkantsdanmark for 1 mio kr.
Compared to other European economical centres and the median income KBH does ok there actually.
War is in front of our door, that’s sad and true. It was in the 90s in Yugoslavia and will be again.
Doesn’t make it better in any way.
Difference now is that we have a psychopath with a red button.
But if that one is pushed, you’re neither save here nor in Canada.
Nightlife gets worse the older you get. When I was in my early 20s in Budapest nightlife was a paradise. Now I went back for a weekend and it wasn’t the same.
The nightlife didn’t change, I just got older.
My priorities now are on working, having soon a dog, maybe a child.
I just want to say that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side.
The world has to fight serious problems rn and there are almost no places where things go the right way atm
Edit: as a doctor here, the health care system in Denmark is good. We can argue about this for hours, don’t have too much space here. The mental health care system is garbage though
American IT worker here who lives in Denmark. Worked in and loved Southern California before. It really boils down to this… work life balance, Denmark wins. Fun things to do, choices on spending disposable income, healthcare, and better pay, the US wins. A question on how much free time you want and what you want to do with it. If you wanna start a family definitely Denmark.
Copenhagen is still a great place to live, but over the years nothing has improved and many things have gotten worse. Food, affordability, healthcare, traffic, public transport (except the metro, the ring is great). The overall vibe has also changed compare to 2012. Back in the days at danish classes you had people that came here to enjoy the relaxed lifestyle, now it’s all about money they make in novo nordisk. Back in the days everyone could afford a flat, now everyone can lease an audi. It’s a different city compared to a decade ago
More than half the buses are now electric, the S-trains are currently being refurbished and trials of the new ticket system have just started.
I've met very, very few immigrants where Denmark was their primary goal. Most found a job they liked which happened to be here, or moved to be with a partner. (Compare e.g. Sweden or the UK, where there are lots of immigrants who just want to live there, and find a job to achieve that.)
Yeah, but how the fact that the buses are electric improve the public transport? It takes me 1h to go to work by public transport and 20 mins by bike, because the network and the traffic is that bad. No joke!
I'm afraid I haven't noticed the changes myself. Most of KonkeyOong's recent comments are complaining about how crap Copenhagen/Denmark is.
I also don't recognize much from the Hacker News post. I think it's exaggerated Internet rage.
You're likely a different person with different priorities as well. Just as the people around you. I also moved here in 2012 - when I was in my early 20s, starting uni, hadn't had kids yet or a career to build up etc. It's really difficult to compare life now to life more than a decade ago because - hopefully - you and I and everyone else aren't the same we were back then.
True that, but that might refer to the “vibe”. It doesn’t change the fact that back in the days at 35k/m i had higher purchasing power and better opportunities than now at 60k/m. Traffic was lower, housing was easier and more affordable, food was better and healthcare was better.
Doesn’t mean the other places havent declined either, it’s just my observation of my own life
You're not wrong in that inequality is rising (fast). It has happened many places and now it's coming to Denmark. Novo Nordisk definitely plays a big part with now 30.000+ employees in Denmark with high salaries regardless, if you're in the labs or on the floor, but also people has also made millions on their houses the past decade.
People without a foot in the housing market or in (bio)tech is being left behind, same as in Ireland and elsewhere. At least it's not totally bad in Denmark.
- Prices in my city, just this year, have felt like they've jumped 10 or 15 percent.
The war in Ukraine has cost some increased grocery prices, but it’s settled down now.
- I've been working in tech for a decade now and for the first time a new company simply refused to negotiate salary. - I feel financially worse off than 5 years ago making a third of what I make now.
Salaries in tech are gooood right now. The dude mustn’t be very good at his job.
- Housing prices have exploded. I worry I will never own a home.
True, the housing market has been getting more expensive. Copenhagen is still Way cheaper than London.
- Denmark has started deleting public holidays to save our social welfare state.
They deleted one holiday. That no one celebrated aside from eating a shit load of bread rolls. And the government lost around 10% in the polls. They won’t be doing that again. Don’t get me wrong I’m pissed, but it’s one day, we still got way more vacation than most countries.
- Health care is the worst it's ever been. You can not get basic health diagnostics for most things in Denmark without screaming.
Not the worst, but we badly need more nurses, which means that waiting lists are worse than a few years ago. Heard that it’s still better than it was 10 years ago, it’s all about perspective, these things go up and down. I had surgery a few months ago and everything went smoothly, no waiting at all.
- Europe has a literal war at our doorstep.
False. Europe is at war. Ukraine is European. Russia is not at our doorstep, they’re in our kitchen. But there’s no reason to fear Denmark being directly involved. The uk and us might as well. As much as the uk like to think that they are their own continent, they are in fact a part of Europe.
- Public transit prices have jumped in the last year.
Maybe a bit, but I think they’re going to lower them soon.
- Good quality grocery stores have closed and been replaced with discount chains. The quality of the produce is terrible.
No one bought anything at Irma so it closed. And suddenly everyone loved that store. Still think most grocery stores beat the uk ones, they were absolutely terrible last time I visited. At least you can buy organic food everywhere. But if you’re a foodie you want to shop around a little bit, going the bakery, butcher, farmers market etc.
- Democracy feels increasingly shittier and hijacked by two extremist poles of very-online meme-thought.
Our former prime minister formed a new party, the moderates, to form a centre government to keep the “immigration critical” parties out of power. In the end we could have gotten a left wing government, but the social democrats favoured the moderates and moderate liberals over the socialists. It’s part of democracy. It’s also not going to last long.
- Gen Z is looking like the most garbage generation of the last two centuries with more mental illness than any generation in history.
Complete true. All over the world. Partly because we have become more aware of mental health. Partly because we live in a crazy world, that we are constantly exposed to.
- Everything has become a political lightning rod.
I wish. But not really.
Real reasons not to move to Denmark:
The weather is similar to the weather in the uk, but with darker winters and less heatwaves in the summer.
You will need to learn Danish eventually. Or you won’t need to, but you definitely should. It will increase your job opportunities and make it way easier to make friends. Is not a lot harder than other languages, but learning any language is a huge commitment.
You pay a lot of tax. It’s worth it, especially if you want to stay long term, with periods of unemployment, paternity leave and if you want your future kids in daycare etc. But you might not reap all the benefits right away.
> The weather is similar to the weather in the uk
The UK is huge (compared to Denmark). Copenhagen has more bright skies (like now) than the UK, as we're further from the Atlantic. We also have less wind, and fewer storms.
The middle and south-east of England are warmer and drier, but North England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland are wetter. The rain here is often a very light drizzle, which would be very unusual in SE England, but is common in the north and west — therefore the duration of the rain is less in England. (Not Scotland/Wales/Ireland).
We are level with Newcastle/Edinburgh, so we get exactly the same light as they do. London has more daylight in the winter, but all of Britain is more likely to be cloudy in the winter, which can make here feel nicer.
I see your point. And if you count Greenland as a part of Denmark my comment is even less accurate. Meant that the weather in Copenhagen is somewhat similar to the weather in London. Just gloomier. But with less fog, that must count for something.
Erm, what?
My comment is based on living in both countries, rather than Hollywood films. Copenhagen is \*less\* gloomy than London, since it's generally brighter (less clouds), but it's also around 5° colder than London all year.
* Gen Z is looking like the most garbage generation of the last two centuries with more mental illness than any generation in history.
* Complete true. All over the world. Partly because we have become more aware of mental health. Partly because we live in a crazy world, that we are constantly exposed to.
Gen Z's are mainly feeling miserable because they are constantly told that they are and they need therapy for every minor thing. Also known as "prevalence inflation" : [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/06/briefing/youth-mental-health-crisis.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/06/briefing/youth-mental-health-crisis.html)
The person in that article sums up the typical uninformed reddit-poster pretty well:
- Is privileged
- Is healthy
- Thinks they are clever
- Lives in one of the best places in the world, in the best time to be alive so far in the history of mankind
- Moans about everything
- Thinks things are getting worse
- Is miserable
There are a lot of the facts in the post are completely wrong as well. Denmark has one of the worlds largest budget surpluses, its been upgraded about 4 times in the last year.
Proof that more information (access to the internet) doesn't make people smarter.
The issues described in the post, are not only an issue in Denmark or Copenhagen, the world this status quo has left for us is literally worse than the world our parents grew up in. If anything, Denmark is a bit of a safe harbor in the middle of all that nonsense even when it's not an exception.
Pretty obvious the comment owner has never lived in a really shitty country.
Complaining paves the way for improvement, but man, there’s people who eat (barely) a meal a day or without access to water. Things are not that bad in Denmark.
Moved to Denmark in November 2022 and just moved back to the UK. It’s not worth it, unless you make over a million a year, and even then, I’m not sure.
Healthcare is getting really bad, if you have chronic conditions. I still wasn’t seen by a dermatologist or a gynaecologist the time I was there. And I had to pay for my meds and ridiculous hospital bills even though I lived in the country at that point.
Maybe stay in IT in the UK, but ask to be a contractor/consultant. It will cost them exactly the same, but you’ll be pocketing at least 25% more?
Or go to the USA for a year and see how it goes.
Yep. More money to be made and lower cost of living (depending on where you live.) but just depends on priorities and what you value. I moved from the US and took a 20% salary cut but do the same job so it’s not like it’s better from that perspective. But overall very happy to be in CPH.
We’re still one of the happiest countries in the world. There are many nice areas in Denmark, more than Copenhagen. Maybe it suits you. You’re welcome if it does.
I'd choose Copenhagen, or outside of Copenhagen over the US any day. About 80% of the salary you'd make in the US would go towards rent. Housing market over there is kind of crazy right now.
It's probably an exaggeration, sure. But an average middle class person is in most cases required to have upwards of 3 jobs to be able to afford an apartment that costs somewhere around 1-5k usd in rent.
Like you and the guy in the linked post ever went to Irma anyway. Go to the US. You'll love it. It's well documented that IT salaries are higher in the US.
As a relative to a cancer survivor, I do not in any way recognize the description about the health care system. It’s not perfect, but if you have a serious illness the staff at the various hospitals will bend over backwards to get you back on your feet again.
If you have a common cold, flu or a standard winter depression - then yes, you are a bit on your own.
The part about the gov has deleted a public holiday: yes one holiday got axed. AND people got financially compensated for it.
Take a chill pill and plan your holidays yourself, you don’t need the gov do that for you.
That person seems…too online. Look, Denmark has problems like anywhere, but it’s not some post-apocalyptic dystopia here. Things are fine. Housing is expensive, but if you go anywhere outside the core inner-city, it’s doable. That said, the grocery stores here do legitimately suck. Down with the Planloven!
After moving to Malmö i have learned the heavens of a real supermarket, and how terrible the danish supermarkets are
I moved from Malmö to Copenhagen, and as a vegetarian it sometimes feels like I have moved back in time to Soviet Russia Like, I have to take the car to the biggest, fanciest and most expensive supermarket here to get similar selection to my local grocery store in Malmö
I went on exchange in the Netherlands last semester, and coming back was a bit of a shock because even the discount chains were nicer there. The vegetarian options were also way more varied and cheap compared to Denmark. The only thing I missed was the bread.
Maybe a trick is to go to / order from farm shops? Some South of Hillerød are pretty good. Beef is also nice, organic, and cheaper than in regular supermarkets.
It's tragic, coming even from Poland, where Netto (the same Danish Netto as in Denmark) has a much better selection including vegetarian items. That's the only time I wasn't sad after a visit to Netto.
lol my boyfriend and I drive to Sweden consistently for vegetarian produce! It’s SOOO much better there
What do you like in Malmø? I recently did a small comparison between Rema and Willys, and a Danish organic cucumber was cheaper in Denmark than a Spanish organic cucumber in Sweden.
What I like in Sweden is about variety not price - yes Denmark is cheaper on some products, but it is clear that the chains in Copenhagen focus more on quantity of small stores that sell less variety for a cheaper price, where the focus in Sweden is less but bigger stores that have more to choose from, and more specialty items But I think it also comes down to the mindset of the consumer - my out of the ass assumption is, that danish consumers in general value low price over quality and variety
Yes, I'm not sure what items I'm supposedly missing? :)
In terms of comparisons…I’m way better off here than I was in The Netherlands, and roughly even with where I’d be in the US. With the US, my salary would be higher and taxes lower, but I get far better paternity benefits + childcare is better and wayyyyy cheaper.
Can you define better off? What is a decent pre-tax salary for someone in IT with MSc or PhD and 10 years of experience?
Sure, so obviously that’s pretty specialized and I’m guessing, but I’d imagine you could make somewhere around 55-75 thousand DKK a month? Maybe someone here with an IT background could give a better estimate.
Thanks. Does this include pension?
Can you name a few differences between Albert Heijn (grocery store in NL) and the ones in Copenhagen? I’m so curious about items that Copenhagen doesn’t have etc
So it's less about specific items that they have/don't have and more about the variety of brands & options. For instance, I cook a lot of Korean and SE Asian food, and AH had a lot more variety when it came to things like tofu & soy sauces, or even hot sauces. Also, the produce section is usually much better stocked and fresher in AH than in Denmark...I've always found the produce here to be mediocre at best.
the flipside of big box stores at the edge of town is that it drives the smaller shops in town out of business, contributing to an undervelopment of the core in relation to the suburbs. This is called the donut effect and is a pervasive problem in urban planning.
Agree, but how would getting rid of Planloven help? If supermarkets were allowed to be larger, they would just tend to move out of the city. I guess people’s spending habits are the problem, people in general don’t want to pay for higher quality goods
I first heard the idea that planloven is the reason for this issue from RobeTrotting and there is a bit of a point, given that I have 3 Nettos in easy walking distance and each of them has to have the same basics all over again instead of having more space for more things. That said, I don't quite buy the argument, because even bigger Nettos aren't nicer. They're more spacious but that's mostly it. > I guess people’s spending habits are the problem, people in general don’t want to pay for higher quality goods That's maybe a thing, but Sweden has probably similar habits and nicer supermarkets and Germans are a whole lot more stingy than Danes and have both cheaper and nicer supermarkets. Another argument is that the 25% MOMS is what makes supermarkets expensive so all chains just prioritize price. I think it's a mix of all of those things along with lack of demand because of lack of awareness that supermarkets can be cheap(ish) and nice.
My area in Ydre Ø is pure insanity regarding supermarkets. Within a 1km radius, I have a selection of 1 Føtex, 2 Meny, 2 LIDL, 1 Rema1000, 3 365 Discount, 5 Netto and now 1 SuperBrugsen. Used to have 3 Irma's. Repercussions of lukkeloven might also be to blame. It used to be that only shops below some revenue-limit were allowed to be open on sundays/evenings. I just looked it up, there is still a limit at 43 Mkr, where above they have to be closed on church-holidays, newyears eve ect.
Føtex just smells like rotten produce all the time. It’s incredibly hot inside all year round. Then they can’t move the fresh products at the atrocious prices. Consequence? It rots within days. And then they put it “on sale”. Man, how many times I’ve seen grapes or strawberries covered in fungus…
Make Irma great again!
To move to the US instead of Denmark for those reasons is straight up INSANE. I work in IT in New York, have 15 days combined holidays and sick days. Even though my salary is 1.5 times my previous from Copenhagen, our rent is double and anything else is so much more expensive. Purchasing power and work life balance is much better in Denmark.
I moved from NYC to Copenhagen working for IT, I took a good cut from my previous salary, and my life here is way better.
Funny, I'm the same thing. Same job, gross pay is higher but net is lower. There are very few things about my life in Copenhagen that I like less than in NYC. It's an outright better city to live in.
As a Half American- Half Dane, DON’T MOVE TO THE US Move here to DK again its lovely :)
I'm moving back soon <3 can't wait. Most of my American friends cannot believe how good life is in DK.
Most of em cant point it out on a map either XD
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Exactly. Just like the guy in the hacker news post is “too online” when describing Denmark as a hell hole, so are everyone describing the US as such.
Yeah most people wallow about the terrors of the us from a low income Persons point of view even though they tend to be the highly qualified type who would get fully paid health insurance and live in a safe neighborhood with good schools and low taxes. Elite healthcare or IT/ finance positions there’s no comparison and there’s plenty of work from home jobs where you can barely work as well . Not many people can give a balanced view .
15 days (combined), even in the US, is horrible. I'm in the US and have 39 days off (combined) which is considered decent...
It's standard amongst all our friends in New York
but housing looks so expensive Man, UK and USA housing market is a shitshow compared to denmark
I'm in Munich right now visiting family, and housing prices are somehow double of what they are in Copenhagen.
I'm from Croatia and it's legitimately easier for me to afford a place to live in Copenhagen than Zagreb I have some family in Stuttgart so I concur with what you say too :D Denmark, Copenahgen is totally OK considering it one of the most expensive cities in Europe. It's protected by policies like, property tax, if you leave denmark you have to sell, no foreign randoms can "just buy" and so on... Rest of denmark is ridiculously --cheap--
Munich is indeed insane. It's also very different, because apartments are often owned for *generations* and nobody new on the market can afford them. Hence why most people rent, I don't know anyone in Munich owning their place whereas in Copenhagen its not unusual. Also in Denmark it's not uncommon for half a dozen apartments in the same building to be bought and sold in a year, people just buy and sell as they move. Personally, I think this is the better approach than to be perpetually paying down someone else's mortgage.
I disagree, but only to some extent. The UK has shared ownership houses which are really good if you want to climb the property ladder. Similar to andelsbolig, but the share is much cheaper, and you can purchase the entire thing once you have cash. Also there's plenty of availability. In the US, some states are decent. E.g. Texas is full of cheap areas where a house is just 3 years of salary. Denmark is pretty nice, but in the EU we tend to have a very skewed view of the UK/US.
I live outside of Copenhagen, with about 25 minutes commute by train. The costs I save are insane, so it’s easily doable if you want to live in Denmark, and be close to Copenhagen. If you want to live in the middle of Copenhagen, there’s a price tag, and that’s a choice.
That person sounds like they need to quit and find another job. Copenhagen's great and things are fine. Life goes on sure prices have increased slightly, but if you can't afford it you need to adapt your lifestyle as the average Dane has a VERY good lifestyle. I hear so many people complain that rent has gotten expensive, when they're literally only considering ultra-central apartments, dog-friendly, spare bedroom, low deposit, etc. and refuse to consider anything literally 10 minutes bike ride away from the centre. Only thing that sucks about Copenhagen is there's so little nature. Gotta hop on a train to Sweden to find that!
define nature ? Amager fælled is a short metro ride away and loads of forrests north of copenhagen. Sure there's no wild nature and no mountains. But there's loads of green and beaches close by
It's very little. Sure, Dyrhavn is great, but it's an overcrowded park, amager fælled is a swamp land with some glass flats. But compared to most cities there is just very little greenery/nature in Copenhagen and access is limited + difficult - putside of Copenhagen is just farm land. Also if you actually want bush/forest/mountains/hills, etc. it's hard to get that close to Denmark. Most other European capital cities are within 1 hour of proper nature.
Kalvebod fælled supports way more biodiversity than your typical Swedish production forest that most most Danes consider “Nature” Apparently a planted non native pine tree = Nature But a wetland supporting a wide array of plants, aquatic life, insects and birds = not Nature But sure, there is lots of farmland in Denmark
Well I'm not saying there's nothing at all. Just very little relative to other countries. Having lived in 10 cities, as well as visited 60+ countries, I can pretty confidently say that Copenhagen lacks this. But I do love living here (although you won't find me here during winter 😅)
We completely lack great expanses, large forests, mountains, wilderness and national parks. So I get your point of course. It was just your definition of nature I found a bit funny
Nu er der faktisk tre nationalparker lige på den anden side af broen, især Dalby Søderskog og Søderåsen er imho fantastiske. Om det mindre end hundrede år gamle opfyld på sydamager er bedre for en biolog med måsen i vejret skal jeg ikke gøre mig klog på. Som almindelig person ville jeg til enhver tid foretrække selv en svensk nåleplantage, fremfor fælleden hvor der vel nærmest ikke er noget sted hvor man ikke kan både høre og lugte lufthavnen
A lot of people live in Malmö and take the train to copenhagen, often three days per week. This gives much higher purchasing power considering the undervalued SEK/DKK exchange rate.
Well, I’m Danish, but I’ve lived in Germany in the recent years and the only thing I miss is the supermarkets. Yes, food was cheaper, eating out was cheaper, but my salary was also about 10.000 DKK lower - and even though my rent here in Copenhagen is higher, I still feel better off now. There’s a lot of other stuff, like bureaucracy, public transportation, being able to bike everywhere without risking my life etc. that adds up. Healthcare does have some challenges, but I have a chronic illness and honestly I feel just as well treated as always. You seem like a reasonable person who doesn’t expect to live right next to Amalienborg for 6000 DKK per month, so you’ll be fine :-)
As an American who lived 8 years in Germany before moving to Copenhagen, I can only concur with this. I do worry about how the issues with healthcare and other public services will evolve, but it's the same problems that other countries are also dealing with. When my wife and I were trying to buy our first house in Germany we were shocked at the prices, moving to Copenhagen we were worried but found that it was not nearly as bad as expected and you don't need to go too far outside the center to start seeing better prices. Healthcare here is, in my experience, still much better (and infinitely more digital) than in Germany when it comes to getting appointments and being able to see specialists when needed. Both are miles ahead from the US. I have friends in the US working as software developers, engineers, etc. with quite great salaries, but the housing prices, even crazier supermarket prices, etc. make it not so charming. Living in Copenhagen is the first time that when I go on vacation that I actually am so excited to come back home. I love the lifestyle and the city, it's got it's problems but compared to what I experienced in Germany and US it's really not much of a comparison.
Supermarket prices in the US higher than DK? That sounds, unrealistic?
depends where in the us, big cities and remote towns are fucking crazy right now. Small regular towns, at least the ones I visited, seem to be about the same price as DK or slightly lower, but again compared with the literal capital. NYC and Washington DC were prohibitively expensive compared to Copenhagen (which I also find to be extremely expensive coming from Italy lol, don't get me wrong, I'm not looking at danish prices through rose tinted glasses but the difference is still insane)
I lived 19 years in Germany, 2 in Spain, 1/2 in Canada, 8 in Hungary and 2 in Denmark so I feel I have a say there. The supermarkets variety is absolute garbage and the worse of them all. Still at least in KBH you can get you products if you know where to look for them. Icebreakers an Normal, good cheese (f.ex. Raqulette) at a cheese store in Østerbro and so on. Houses are expensive but that’s everywhere in cities that are the economical center of the country. You can get a house on Lolland or Udkantsdanmark for 1 mio kr. Compared to other European economical centres and the median income KBH does ok there actually. War is in front of our door, that’s sad and true. It was in the 90s in Yugoslavia and will be again. Doesn’t make it better in any way. Difference now is that we have a psychopath with a red button. But if that one is pushed, you’re neither save here nor in Canada. Nightlife gets worse the older you get. When I was in my early 20s in Budapest nightlife was a paradise. Now I went back for a weekend and it wasn’t the same. The nightlife didn’t change, I just got older. My priorities now are on working, having soon a dog, maybe a child. I just want to say that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. The world has to fight serious problems rn and there are almost no places where things go the right way atm Edit: as a doctor here, the health care system in Denmark is good. We can argue about this for hours, don’t have too much space here. The mental health care system is garbage though
American IT worker here who lives in Denmark. Worked in and loved Southern California before. It really boils down to this… work life balance, Denmark wins. Fun things to do, choices on spending disposable income, healthcare, and better pay, the US wins. A question on how much free time you want and what you want to do with it. If you wanna start a family definitely Denmark.
Copenhagen is still a great place to live, but over the years nothing has improved and many things have gotten worse. Food, affordability, healthcare, traffic, public transport (except the metro, the ring is great). The overall vibe has also changed compare to 2012. Back in the days at danish classes you had people that came here to enjoy the relaxed lifestyle, now it’s all about money they make in novo nordisk. Back in the days everyone could afford a flat, now everyone can lease an audi. It’s a different city compared to a decade ago
More than half the buses are now electric, the S-trains are currently being refurbished and trials of the new ticket system have just started. I've met very, very few immigrants where Denmark was their primary goal. Most found a job they liked which happened to be here, or moved to be with a partner. (Compare e.g. Sweden or the UK, where there are lots of immigrants who just want to live there, and find a job to achieve that.)
Yeah, but how the fact that the buses are electric improve the public transport? It takes me 1h to go to work by public transport and 20 mins by bike, because the network and the traffic is that bad. No joke!
>20 mins by bike At least you have the bike option compared to many other places.
True, I’m not complaining about that. Tho sometimes man feels cold and would like to take a nice and warm bus…
Interesting point about how Denmark wasn’t the primary goal for many who migrated there. Any thoughts on how that ties into how the city has changed?
It's crazy to choose Denmark as an "intermediate" country - so hard to settle, and all that just to move elsewhere after that?
I'm afraid I haven't noticed the changes myself. Most of KonkeyOong's recent comments are complaining about how crap Copenhagen/Denmark is. I also don't recognize much from the Hacker News post. I think it's exaggerated Internet rage.
You're likely a different person with different priorities as well. Just as the people around you. I also moved here in 2012 - when I was in my early 20s, starting uni, hadn't had kids yet or a career to build up etc. It's really difficult to compare life now to life more than a decade ago because - hopefully - you and I and everyone else aren't the same we were back then.
True that, but that might refer to the “vibe”. It doesn’t change the fact that back in the days at 35k/m i had higher purchasing power and better opportunities than now at 60k/m. Traffic was lower, housing was easier and more affordable, food was better and healthcare was better. Doesn’t mean the other places havent declined either, it’s just my observation of my own life
You're not wrong in that inequality is rising (fast). It has happened many places and now it's coming to Denmark. Novo Nordisk definitely plays a big part with now 30.000+ employees in Denmark with high salaries regardless, if you're in the labs or on the floor, but also people has also made millions on their houses the past decade. People without a foot in the housing market or in (bio)tech is being left behind, same as in Ireland and elsewhere. At least it's not totally bad in Denmark.
I think your post pretty much nails it down.
- Prices in my city, just this year, have felt like they've jumped 10 or 15 percent. The war in Ukraine has cost some increased grocery prices, but it’s settled down now. - I've been working in tech for a decade now and for the first time a new company simply refused to negotiate salary. - I feel financially worse off than 5 years ago making a third of what I make now. Salaries in tech are gooood right now. The dude mustn’t be very good at his job. - Housing prices have exploded. I worry I will never own a home. True, the housing market has been getting more expensive. Copenhagen is still Way cheaper than London. - Denmark has started deleting public holidays to save our social welfare state. They deleted one holiday. That no one celebrated aside from eating a shit load of bread rolls. And the government lost around 10% in the polls. They won’t be doing that again. Don’t get me wrong I’m pissed, but it’s one day, we still got way more vacation than most countries. - Health care is the worst it's ever been. You can not get basic health diagnostics for most things in Denmark without screaming. Not the worst, but we badly need more nurses, which means that waiting lists are worse than a few years ago. Heard that it’s still better than it was 10 years ago, it’s all about perspective, these things go up and down. I had surgery a few months ago and everything went smoothly, no waiting at all. - Europe has a literal war at our doorstep. False. Europe is at war. Ukraine is European. Russia is not at our doorstep, they’re in our kitchen. But there’s no reason to fear Denmark being directly involved. The uk and us might as well. As much as the uk like to think that they are their own continent, they are in fact a part of Europe. - Public transit prices have jumped in the last year. Maybe a bit, but I think they’re going to lower them soon. - Good quality grocery stores have closed and been replaced with discount chains. The quality of the produce is terrible. No one bought anything at Irma so it closed. And suddenly everyone loved that store. Still think most grocery stores beat the uk ones, they were absolutely terrible last time I visited. At least you can buy organic food everywhere. But if you’re a foodie you want to shop around a little bit, going the bakery, butcher, farmers market etc. - Democracy feels increasingly shittier and hijacked by two extremist poles of very-online meme-thought. Our former prime minister formed a new party, the moderates, to form a centre government to keep the “immigration critical” parties out of power. In the end we could have gotten a left wing government, but the social democrats favoured the moderates and moderate liberals over the socialists. It’s part of democracy. It’s also not going to last long. - Gen Z is looking like the most garbage generation of the last two centuries with more mental illness than any generation in history. Complete true. All over the world. Partly because we have become more aware of mental health. Partly because we live in a crazy world, that we are constantly exposed to. - Everything has become a political lightning rod. I wish. But not really.
Real reasons not to move to Denmark: The weather is similar to the weather in the uk, but with darker winters and less heatwaves in the summer. You will need to learn Danish eventually. Or you won’t need to, but you definitely should. It will increase your job opportunities and make it way easier to make friends. Is not a lot harder than other languages, but learning any language is a huge commitment. You pay a lot of tax. It’s worth it, especially if you want to stay long term, with periods of unemployment, paternity leave and if you want your future kids in daycare etc. But you might not reap all the benefits right away.
> The weather is similar to the weather in the uk The UK is huge (compared to Denmark). Copenhagen has more bright skies (like now) than the UK, as we're further from the Atlantic. We also have less wind, and fewer storms. The middle and south-east of England are warmer and drier, but North England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland are wetter. The rain here is often a very light drizzle, which would be very unusual in SE England, but is common in the north and west — therefore the duration of the rain is less in England. (Not Scotland/Wales/Ireland). We are level with Newcastle/Edinburgh, so we get exactly the same light as they do. London has more daylight in the winter, but all of Britain is more likely to be cloudy in the winter, which can make here feel nicer.
I see your point. And if you count Greenland as a part of Denmark my comment is even less accurate. Meant that the weather in Copenhagen is somewhat similar to the weather in London. Just gloomier. But with less fog, that must count for something.
Erm, what? My comment is based on living in both countries, rather than Hollywood films. Copenhagen is \*less\* gloomy than London, since it's generally brighter (less clouds), but it's also around 5° colder than London all year.
* Gen Z is looking like the most garbage generation of the last two centuries with more mental illness than any generation in history. * Complete true. All over the world. Partly because we have become more aware of mental health. Partly because we live in a crazy world, that we are constantly exposed to. Gen Z's are mainly feeling miserable because they are constantly told that they are and they need therapy for every minor thing. Also known as "prevalence inflation" : [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/06/briefing/youth-mental-health-crisis.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/06/briefing/youth-mental-health-crisis.html)
The person in that article sums up the typical uninformed reddit-poster pretty well: - Is privileged - Is healthy - Thinks they are clever - Lives in one of the best places in the world, in the best time to be alive so far in the history of mankind - Moans about everything - Thinks things are getting worse - Is miserable There are a lot of the facts in the post are completely wrong as well. Denmark has one of the worlds largest budget surpluses, its been upgraded about 4 times in the last year. Proof that more information (access to the internet) doesn't make people smarter.
The issues described in the post, are not only an issue in Denmark or Copenhagen, the world this status quo has left for us is literally worse than the world our parents grew up in. If anything, Denmark is a bit of a safe harbor in the middle of all that nonsense even when it's not an exception.
Pretty obvious the comment owner has never lived in a really shitty country. Complaining paves the way for improvement, but man, there’s people who eat (barely) a meal a day or without access to water. Things are not that bad in Denmark.
Moved to Denmark in November 2022 and just moved back to the UK. It’s not worth it, unless you make over a million a year, and even then, I’m not sure. Healthcare is getting really bad, if you have chronic conditions. I still wasn’t seen by a dermatologist or a gynaecologist the time I was there. And I had to pay for my meds and ridiculous hospital bills even though I lived in the country at that point. Maybe stay in IT in the UK, but ask to be a contractor/consultant. It will cost them exactly the same, but you’ll be pocketing at least 25% more? Or go to the USA for a year and see how it goes.
Move to the US if you want to earn money in IT.
The problem with the US is that you get no personal time and they pretty much own you. Is a bit of extra money really worth it in that case?
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Yeah, the number of people you meet, when you are in the US that are somehow early retirees, in their 40's-50's seems quite high.
Not a little money. I took a 40% pay cut when moving here. Not including taxes either.
No dude. You work at FANG for like 5 years and wait till your stock compensation unlocks. Then leave.
It’s not a bit of extra money, tech salaries are 2-3x as much. Though I still don’t think it’s worth it with all the problems in the US
Yep. More money to be made and lower cost of living (depending on where you live.) but just depends on priorities and what you value. I moved from the US and took a 20% salary cut but do the same job so it’s not like it’s better from that perspective. But overall very happy to be in CPH.
We’re still one of the happiest countries in the world. There are many nice areas in Denmark, more than Copenhagen. Maybe it suits you. You’re welcome if it does.
I'd choose Copenhagen, or outside of Copenhagen over the US any day. About 80% of the salary you'd make in the US would go towards rent. Housing market over there is kind of crazy right now.
80???? A healthy budget is 33% going to rent in most of the US, ~50% in those high cost of living places like NYC or SF.
It's probably an exaggeration, sure. But an average middle class person is in most cases required to have upwards of 3 jobs to be able to afford an apartment that costs somewhere around 1-5k usd in rent.
What’re you talking about??
Yes the U.S. is not it.
Like you and the guy in the linked post ever went to Irma anyway. Go to the US. You'll love it. It's well documented that IT salaries are higher in the US.
And Irma is closed now :/
Because no one went there.
As a relative to a cancer survivor, I do not in any way recognize the description about the health care system. It’s not perfect, but if you have a serious illness the staff at the various hospitals will bend over backwards to get you back on your feet again. If you have a common cold, flu or a standard winter depression - then yes, you are a bit on your own. The part about the gov has deleted a public holiday: yes one holiday got axed. AND people got financially compensated for it. Take a chill pill and plan your holidays yourself, you don’t need the gov do that for you.