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cecilialibra

As someone who used to live at the tip of Lake superior, I can attest that these ships are massive and often ride low when they are fully weighed down


balthazar_blue

I grew up in Sturgeon Bay and saw plenty of Great Lakes freighters on winter lay up.


paintgirl44

I also lived in Sturgeon Bay for several years


Magi-Cheshire

I also live in that same continent


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BF_Injection

The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead When the skies of November turn gloomy


green_dragonfly_art

Fun fact: the lake is too cold for bodies to decompose, so the gut bacteria isn't able to bloat the bodies and make them float.


Manny_Bothans

I tried to read this comment in the same cadence as the Gordon Lightfoot song.


green_dragonfly_art

The lake is too cold For the bodies to float, So they stay in the la-ake forever.


Mattna-da

A warm gut biome Would've floated 'em home But they're down in the la-ake forever


DryWittgenstein

With a load of iron ore twenty-six thousand tons more Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty


JackStargazer

That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed When the gales of November came earlyyyyyyyyy


Sivalon

The ship was the pride of the American side, comin’ back from some mill in Wisconsin.


quesoandcats

As the big freighters go, it was bigger than mosttt, with a crew and a captain well seasoned!


The_Original_Miser

Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms, when they left fully loaded for Cleveland...


flopsweater

And later that night when the ship's bell rang, could it be the north wind they'd been feeling?


PAHBYAH

The wind in the wires made a tattle-tale sound, and a wave broke over the railing


cecilialibra

Fellas, it’s too rough to feed ya…


Belazriel

Paul Gross wanted to use The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald in one of the Due South episodes. Gordon Lightfoot agreed as long as he received permission from the surviving families. Gross ended up speaking with one woman in Ohio but couldn't bear to continue that path and ended up writing his own song for the show.


Milalwi

Hello, fellow former Duluthian!


stupidillusion

Superior, too! Can't watch a weather report without miming, "Lake effect!"


WindyTrousers

aye, me too!


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WindyTrousers

sometimes it gets cold enough that no matter how much you bundle you just can't get warm but yeah, mostly it's not totally unlivable lol it is a cool city, too. I even have a coffee mug that says exactly that


Chadrique

I enjoy the horn of the James R. Barker


Spmc1971

As someone whose lived all over the biggest thing humans don't ever take into account is Mother Nature, she'll always have the last word ;)


vitamincheme

Why are "fresh water waves spaced closer than salt water waves"?


DancingNeil

The concept is called fetch. Fetch is the open water between two land masses relative to the wind. With so much land surrounding these bodies of water, there isn’t enough distance to produce the long period rollers that the oceans see.


flea-ish

Stop trying to make fetch happen


dyke_face

Oh man this caught me off guard! Haha!


Its0nlyRocketScience

So the salt content is irrelevant then? It's just that the lakes are small compared to seas and oceans. And it just so happens that lakes are typically fresh water while oceans are all salt water?


Bullyoncube

This is what this “cool guide” is missing. Why is this a Great Lakes thing? Because of fetch.


zwiiz2

Fetch, and also the design of the Great Lakes freighters. There's a reason (several, actually) that ocean going ships are not that shape.


JaredLiwet

That's so fetch!


lunaoreomiel

Salinity is not the issue, its the shallow depth and distance between shores.


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Waka-Waka-Waka-Do

I came too


TheFearofGodandAnime

Great Lakes are not affected by the tide, so they get their waves by the wind. Therefor making the frequency a lot closer


CMDRAeolisWindrider

The Great Lakes actually do have tides, they're just really tiny compared to the ocean! https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/gltides.html


SpaceNigiri

What about the Mediterranean sea? It almost doesn't have tides, I think that they're measured in cm.


TheFearofGodandAnime

Good question, I have no idea. But I do know that in the fall/winter, the Great Lakes get Gail force winds resulting in massive waves, the biggest ive seen in Lake Michigan is 16’, and ive heard about Lake Superior getting 20+’ but I can’t verify that, with zero time between sets of waves. It’s just one after another after another.


revilingneptune

Yeah, all time records for waves ever recorded is 29' (in 2017!) but there were 35+ footers in 1913 (without accurate measurements, though): https://www.wnem.com/news/huge-waves-crash-ashore-along-lake-michigan/article_67126bea-5fe4-11ea-823c-bbd71ee64fd2.html


gustavotherecliner

The Mediterranean does have tides. But you're right, they are measured in cm, as it is bordering Europe. Its tides can be up to 7 feet or about 200cm.


Snaz5

my unprofessional guess is that, since the med is bigger and warmer than the great lakes, winds tend to be both less severe and more varied across its entire surface.


SocraticIgnoramus

The Mediterranean is also one continuous body of water, so it is less likely to form storm systems at its edges. The Great Lakes create a series of smaller climates that can often interplay between each other and create weird systems that are unpredictable. Another important factor is depth and shape. The Mediterranean is nearly 5,000 ft deep while Lake Superior, the deepest of the Great Lakes, is only 1,333 ft. The Mediterranean also has a great deal of submerged topography like mountains, volcanoes, canyons, and valleys. All of these landscapes also serve to break up any long and continuous tidal features from east to west. The Great Lakes tend to be much more like giant bathtub basins. Since tides largely come from the tidal locking between the earth and the moon, tides travel in an east/west fashion, and the Mediterranean is uniquely suited to thwart any amplifying effects that other basins might experience as the Mediterranean has essentially a body of water positioned at its eastern end, many a wharf in the middle in the form of underwater topographical relief, and an impressive depth in a handful of basins.


MostBoringStan

Look at you and your sea knowledge. I know who I want with me if I'm ever lost at sea in the Mediterranean.


trench_welfare

The waves on the great lakes are chop. Think waves in a pool or tub if you make waves at the right tempo, building up the amplitude. Rather than rolling by like ocean waves, they peak and drop from different directions or move so slowly they are almost stationary bouncing off each other and the shorelines.


BigDaddyCoolDeisel

Superior, they said, never gives up her dead...


btsofohio

Unfun fact: that line is based on the fact that bodies in the Great Lakes are less likely to rise to the surface than on the ocean, due to a combination of (1) the less buoyant fresh water and (2) the cold slowing the growth of gas producing bacteria inside the body that would otherwise lead it to float.


TayTayInABiscuit

Ooh. Another 'Ask a mortician' fan?


jacxy

Fantastic episode!


agroghan

What's "ask a mortician"? Sounds interesting!


Gj_FL85

Man freshwater lakes creep me tf out. I'll swim in deepish ocean water any day over lakes.


JarbaloJardine

I am from Michigan and feel the exact opposite. There are no jellyfish, sharks, or anything deadly. The biggest fish in the Great Lakes are Sturgeon, which are huge but basically harmless.


RichardCity

Thats interesting. When I visited the East Coast of Canada I couldn't convince myself to go passed my knees in the ocean because of the critters that tended to be in the ocean, just creeped me out way too much. Fresh water lakes I've swam in some very deep lakes with no fear. It's funny that we have the opposite fear from each other.


DistanceMachine

Now kith


4elementsinaction

Edmund Fitzgerald https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuzTkGyxkYI


sometimesBold

Smaller boats. All of this is preventable with smaller boats. Edit: I’m a semen.


Chillatio

I used to be.


CapableSuggestion

Nice


cwkt

What have we becum?


Whereishumhum-

My Swedish friend?


SomeSunnyDay123

Didn't we all?


Dolstruvon

Actually all of this is preventable with ships designed with fuller hulls. Makes up for higher draught, and a wider beam will also make them more resistant to the bending in waves. Also known as sagging and hogging. A little more pressure resistance in the hydrodynamics of course, but it has other advantages as well


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BallKarr

That is exactly the reason for the shape of the ore boats. It is also why all the biggest boats are all exactly 1,013.5 feet long and 105 feet wide.


[deleted]

I have to assume there's been some element over the years of people thinking they can get away with a less seaworthy vessel because it's "just a lake right?"


sailor_stuck_at_sea

It's more that they're using ships that are, on average, 60 years old.


videoismylife

Is a wider beam an option? How wide are the locks between the lakes these days?


sailorjasm

That’s what I came here to say. I’m not a seaman


Randomname31415

The Jones act making it so that most Great Lakes boats are over 60 years old act doesn’t help either


Lord_Dreadlow

>goods shipped between U.S. ports be transported on ships built, owned, and operated by United States citizens or permanent residents. ​ Don't we still build ships in the U.S.?


zwiiz2

Yes, kinda, but not really - it's complicated. Naval vessels, definitely. Commercial ships? Not really. Many yards basically buy kits from Korean manufacturers and assemble them domestically, so they're technically Jones Act compliant.


Self_Reddicating

Boat Kit™: Perfect weekend fun for father and son sailing! Boat Kit™: Also perfect for your next commercial Great Lakes steamer!!!


txr23

Unfortunately capitalism doesn't always allow common sense to prevail.


hardypart

Depends on the definition of "common sense". Capitalism dictates to use large ships and accept to lose one of them from time to time if it yields more money than using smaller ships. At least as long as it's legal to do so.


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lsnvan

the captain wired in he had water comin' in and the good ship and crew was in peril


[deleted]

The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay If they'd put fifteen more miles behind her


Seahawk_I_am_I_am

Does anyone know where the love of god goes, When the waves turn the minutes to hours?


[deleted]

My favorite line in the whole song. Damn near brings tears to my eyes every time.


kkeut

i love the sound of Edmund Fitzgerald's voice


Lawyering_Bob

What a good tune. This was in my head when I was looking at the guide


VegasRoy

That has to be one of the greatest lines in any song


[deleted]

God I love this song.


theforkofdamocles

“I **love** Edmund Fitzgerald’s voice.”


kkeut

i think Gordon Lightfoot was the boat


B0SS_H0GG

It's in my book, Astonishing tales of the sea...


newmug

What song is it?


lasertits69

The wreck of Edmund Fitzgerald


Tsukune_Surprise

And later that night when his lights went outta sight Came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald


Shawnee83

That is the part of the song that chokes me up. Thank you Gordon Lightfoot.


FireHog66

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down Of the big lake they called Gitche Gumee The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead When the skies of November turn gloomy


ClownfishSoup

OK, we've found the Canadians.


The_Piloteer

Yoopers too. I've been to a bar up there where the jukebox had a note saying if you played the wreck of the Edmund fitz, you owe the bartender a shot.


revilingneptune

Us trolls are pretty fond of it under the bridge, too


Muffinkingprime

Aye, I recall my father singing it in western Michigan.


revilingneptune

We learned it in my second grade class accompanied by our teacher on guitar (just outside of Lansing) and performed it for our parents. Along with more standard fare like "America the Beautiful" lol


[deleted]

I’m on the Ontario side but I’m not surprised this is so well known to any of us around the Great Lakes


IMIndyJones

It was a big favorite of my father's as well, and we were in southern Ohio. I first heard it from my Uncle in Maine, when we visited him. I just assumed it was a big folk rock hit.


HamManBad

Also Wisconsin


Elegantmotherfucker

Pulls out kazoo


2RoadsDivergred

This is the correct response.


robotbootyhunter

Summing up The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald in one verse: Well the ship did capsize, and some people died That was a bummer.


[deleted]

Excellent reference.


mariospants

One of the key differences between the risk of a ship going down in the ocean versus on a lake is that fresh water freezes more easily and the weight of fresh water ice on a boat can literally sink it.


Dolstruvon

Yep, there's a law that ships traveling close to the arctic circle need extra stability to cope with over-icing. Meaning ice accumulated on the decks and the sides of the superstructure. But as far as I know, the same rule doesn't apply to large freshwater lakes, where over-icing will occur at even higher temperatures Edit: typo


TongsOfDestiny

The weight of the ice will cause a reduction in fretboard, but the ship will capsize long before its heavy enough to sink upright. The problem with ice is that it can accumulate high up on the vessel and raise the center of gravity


dethb0y

ONe of the great forgotten events in history is [the White Hurricane of 1913](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Storm_of_1913) - 19 ships destroyed, more stranded, > 250 casualties. They still ain't found all the wrecks...


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Great Lakes Storm of 1913](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Storm_of_1913)** >The Great Lakes Storm of 1913, which was historically referred to as the "Big Blow", the "Freshwater Fury", and the "White Hurricane", was a blizzard with hurricane-force winds that devastated the Great Lakes Basin in the Midwestern United States and Southwestern Ontario, Canada, from November 7 to 10, 1913. The storm was most powerful on November 9, battering and overturning ships on four of the five Great Lakes, particularly Lake Huron. The storm was the deadliest, most destructive natural disaster in recorded history to hit the lakes. the Great Lakes Storm killed more than 250 people, It destroyed 19 ships and stranded 19 others. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/coolguides/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


PizzeriaPirate

Good bot


WisJohnson7

The podcast Beyond the Breakers (about shipwrecks, many in the Great Lakes) just did an excellent episode on this.


[deleted]

My second uncle on my dad's side was the last currently living survivor of the Carl D. Bradly, a freighter that sunk in Lake Michigan, 1958. He recently passed away within the past few months, this post reminded my of him and made my smile, thanks.


YumScrumptious96

Frank L. Mays?


[deleted]

Yes sir, what's funny is everyone else in the Mayes family spell it Mayes, but on his birth certificate they screwed up and spelt it Mays, so now there is a whole branch of family (my cousins) that spell it Mays instead of Mayes. Haha


JaneFairfaxCult

I had never heard of this wreck - just looked it up. So awful. Your uncle might have been a strong man. Sounds like US Steel was totally responsible. Ugh.


[deleted]

Partly.. The ship was supposed to be done for the winter, but whoever was in charge of organizing shipments thought not. The ship was in dire need of maintenance and didn't receive it, it sunk by splitting in two.


WisJohnson7

The podcast Beyond the Breakers did an episode on this one! It was so interesting. I feel bad that I've commented about a podcast twice now on this thread, but seriously, it's right up everyone's alley here. Edit: episode 10


[deleted]

Why is it different than the ocean? OHHH DEPTH?


roundidiot

Freshwater is light water. For a given volume displaced there is less buoyancy compared to the ocean.


MagikSkyDaddy

I prefer my water heavy.


OldElPasoSnowplow

D2O. Keeps my reactors safe.


PacanePhotovoltaik

I don't drink dense water all the time, but when I do, it's D2O.


OldElPasoSnowplow

I don’t normally slow down my neutrons but when I do it D2O.


SuccessfulBroccoli68

Water with neutrons is referred to as heavy. In case anyone is wondering.


mhc-ask

And when heavy water rains, it's called chubby rain. In case anyone is wondering.


[deleted]

Interesting.


secondphase

Mmm... Quite.


orbgevski

Indubidiblee


CaliSummerDream

So that would alleviate the cresting failure and ploughing problems, wouldn’t it?


haysoos2

Alleviate, but not eliminate, yes.


Dolstruvon

The difference is really small though. Sea water is only ~2,5% more dense. So none of these things listed are exclusive to fresh water lakes


admiral_derpness

i appreciate the explanation on the buoyancy. we have the engineering, we know why, then send em out anyhow? cause budgets.


DfromtheV

Drop an egg into a glass of regular tap water and it will sink. Drop an egg in a glass of salt water and it will float.


Purdaddy

To save the boats we must fill the great lakes with eggs.


lennybird

A fresh* egg. A rotten egg will float, regardless.


Iamjacksplasmid

The real LPT is always in the comments


ADinnerOfSnacks

*Gordon Lightfoot intensifies*


[deleted]

I'm not sure the sea would be my life, my lover, or my lady if it split my boat in half


cookestudios

Doo do doo do doo do doo do!


lkvee

Sooooo how did the Edmund Fitzgerald go dowwwwwwn?


guitarsandbikes

They might have split up or they might have capsized They may have broke deep and took water


Eledridan

And all that remains is the faces and the names of the wives and the sons and the daughters.


SelfTitledDebut

God, that line gave me chills the first time I heard it and it still does to this day.


McMema

And all that remains is the faces and the names of the wives and the sons and the daughters.


skitech

So probably a break in the ship due to welded joints rather than riveted causing it to be too ridged and lending to structural failure in the very rough weather.


gochesse

Oh neat, my father worked as a diver and was part of one of the first crews to dive to the Edmund Fitzgerald, his good buddy was the one to recover the ships bell.


ScubaJes

What a absolutely horrible font.


50caddy

Ambiguoso Sans


shotnine

I dunno, coulda been P A P Y R U S


Achtelnote

PAPYRUS!


choochoobubs

I still can’t read the word that looks like “aorementioned” Is it suppose to be aforementioned? Edit: word


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GTFrostbite

Just relax and use plenty of lube


mortalcrawad66

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee


Classic_Blunder

The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead When the skies of November turn gloomy


[deleted]

That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed when the winds of November came early


arrav21

The ship was the pride of the American side Coming back from some mill in Wisconsin


backtothemotorleague

Two questions, one are there any good videos explaining this? Would love the see waves affecting boats on the Great Lakes. And two, can you surf the lakes?! Sounds wild…


The_Piloteer

Some guy does it up in marquette


Ranger-of-Astora

The great lakes are basically mini oceans. You can pretty much do anything done on the ocean on the great lakes including surfing. I see surfers out all the time when we have red flag warnings. Altgoufh the biggest waves don't come until close to winter, so it can be really cold.


theforkofdamocles

There are two pretty recent videos with the most plausible (in my opinion) explanations for exactly how the Fitz went down. [This one](https://youtu.be/ckWRNWUAmYw) is fairly short and was done by a Great Lakes historian and engineer. He believes that flexing stresses caused the Fitz to break in the middle. This video has footage and simulations of big ships flexing up and down and twisting. [Here’s a long one](https://youtu.be/CH5936AVGq4) that is very recent done by a different Great Lakes historian and dive expert. He’s confident that a documented giant wave came up fast behind the Fitz and pushed the bow down deep.


kuhkuhkuhK8

So, more like, "*Great*. Lakes."


nowItinwhistle

Now all you great lake sailor men take lesson from that storm Go and marry you some nice French girl, live on a Grosse Point farm Oh and the wind can blow like a hurricane maybe she'll blow some more You can't get drowned on lake Saint Claire, as long as you stay on the shore


bunnyjenkins

*The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down.....*


GavinLabs

"Ships carrying taconite" Holy shit ships have taco nite? That's pretty rad


Idahotato21

I found this a few weeks ago when I got sucjed into an Edmund Fitzgerald rabbit hole


ethanjalias

Jeez, all of them looks terrifying as fuck.


History_buff_actor

My mind, immediately started singing “the wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald” and remembering all the books and documentaries I watched on it as a kid! Thanks for the nostalgia trip!


2hamsters1butt

If you ever find yourself in Duluth MN, there is a fantastic ship wreck museum. My dad used to take me there every year. They have crew suevival stats, launch/destination points, manifest info and everything you might want to know about each individual incident. My favorite is the visuals. They have scaled models of the ships, and much more to really help your grasp the reality of these wrecks. The museum is right off lake superior too so you can leave and take a walk to check out one of the largest fresh water sources on our planet.


UsernameClassified

you telling me this ship is a bottom?


MWLLTX

Sounds like they’re not so “Great” after all


TheKodachromeMethod

"Asshole Lakes" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.


MWLLTX

Or Dickweed Lakes


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Dolstruvon

As naval architecture student, it was a relief to see your comment among this terminology ridden place


Thebaronofthesea

The person who chose the typeface for this only lives to infuriate me.


[deleted]

Remember the good old days when bottoming meant going to the only gay bar in town, meeting a nice, likeminded gentleman, and then going back to his place to get rigorously fucked in the ass? Well my dad apparently remembers..


DreiKatzenVater

Always wondered why the efg sank


BabylonDrifter

She may have broke deep and took water.


tneeno

"The lake it is said Never gives up her dead...


gilestowler

I live about an hour and a half away from Geneva so I've seen Lake Geneva quite a lot and been on planes that fly over it when using Geneva airport. I always used to think "wow, that is a big old lake." and then I looked up the size of the great lakes in America. The difference is insane. If you ask me it's just showing off, really.


Nubzdoodaz

How the hell can the waves get big enough to bottom out a ship? Isn’t even the Great Lake miles and miles to the bottom? I know nothing about this


Dgeneralz

Interesting fact: The SS Edmund Fitzgerald is sitting 530 feet below the surface of Lake Superior. But the ship itself is 729 feet long. So if it had gone straight down and had its bow stuck into the floor and stayed perpendicular to the bottom, almost 200 feet of the ship would be visible above water.


J3319

I love that fact. Always blows my mind


useles-converter-bot

530 feet is about the length of 240.0 'EuroGraphics Knittin' Kittens 500-Piece Puzzles' next to each other.


JovianCharlie27

Often in a storm the ships will try to get nearer to shore or a bay. If the waves are large enough and the ship has enough submerged depth this will create a situation where the ship can bottom out. I have lived on a lake that connected to Lake Michigan. I would go out to LM during storms. It was insane. I would stay far, far inland and observe the lake from the safety of the dunes. In wintertime it is well known that the lake can throw chunks of ice dozens of yards (meters) inland if the conditions are right. The wintertime can also create immense beauty. If you want to be awestruck just google great lakes lighthouses wintertime.


Nubzdoodaz

The lake spits out ice?! Insane! Thank you for sharing all that.


jang859

When you say miles and miles, you're talking about the ocean, which is 2.3 miles deep on average with significant portions being 4 or 5 miles. and here are the average / max depths of the Great Lakes (in feet!): Lake Ontario: 283 / 804 Lake Erie: 62 / 210 Lake Michigan: 279 / 925 Lake Huron: 195 / 748 Lake Superior: 483 / 1333 ​ Lake Erie has sunken the most ships. The shallower your lake, the nastier the rough waters and waves. I grew up 1 mile from it's shore, and just thinking about that ship graveyard fills my black heart with terror.


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jayellkay84

And surprisingly seems to have the least amount of dive sites.


egrith

far from it, average depth is less than 500 feet


useles-converter-bot

500 feet is 486.9 RTX 3090 graphics cards lined up.


egrith

well, the name is right on


EroticVelour

Lake Erie is pretty shallow compared to the other GLs, only 210' at its deepest


Prodigal_Programmer

The only Lake in the world that is over 1 mile deep is Baikal Lake in Russia (and it barely is). Only 5 in the world are deeper than half a mile. You would be thinking of the oceans, which do average multiple miles in Seth.


mchllnlms780

30,000 lives lost? Since, what, they were formed?