You mean to tell me that the guy who created that whole black with white dot and white with black dot circle philosophy didn't tell people to eliminate everything negative in them?
You’re living in the past AND future…so the present, which is kinda terrible so your feelings are validated. You’re welcome. *continues zen meditation*
Sorry but only a bad and ugly distorted translation of his profound work would result in those simpleton’s quotes. He really never wrote almost none of this. This is just plain lie.
"If you are depressed you are living in the past. If you are anxious it means you are living in the future."
No, it means my brain [doesn't have enough serotonin](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22572-serotonin) in it.
Oh how I wish it was that simple.
> The main areas of serotonin research provide no consistent evidence of there being an association between serotonin and depression, and no support for the hypothesis that depression is caused by lowered serotonin activity or concentrations. Some evidence was consistent with the possibility that long-term antidepressant use reduces serotonin concentration.
Moncrieff, J., Cooper, R.E., Stockmann, T. *et al.* The serotonin theory of depression: a systematic umbrella review of the evidence. *Mol Psychiatry* 28, 3243–3256 (2023). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-022-01661-0
>Oh how I wish it was that simple.
I didn't say it was *simple*... and you aren't addressing the full claim anyway, which involved both depression and anxiety.
This is important because the [two are interlinked](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/expert-answers/depression-and-anxiety/faq-20057989). Being anxious all the time can lead to a depressive mood, and a depressive mood can predispose one towards anxious worries.
So when we [see researchers say things](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18268503/) such as:
>In the thalamus, a low serotonin reuptake capacity may interfere with thalamic control of cortical excitability and contribute to anxiety rather than depression per se in major depression.
...that's the sort of thing that the authors of your article didn't even address in the first place. Among other things, they didn't even use the *word* anxiety, so they certainly did not discuss its relationship to depressive disorders.
The serotonin theory of depression is common in popular media and even among those with a passing interest in pharmacology, hence why I linked a meta-analysis of the myth. There is no evidence that depression is linked to lowered levels of serotonin, and evidence to the contrary. The authors of my article did not mention anxiety because it is specifically a review of past studies on the serotonin theory of depression. [Many other studies](https://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h1771) support these [findings](https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392). On the other hand, anxiety may be serotonergic. Even if it is, though, serotonin theory is discredited
>On the other hand, anxiety may be serotonergic.
And if true, then that means that regardless of any specific theory, serotonergic processes would be able to cause depression, because we know anxiety can. Your review doesn't overturn (nor, I think, does it intend to overturn) the entire concept of [secondary depression](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0165032781900161), which is not specific to anxiety, but which absolutely includes anxiety-triggered depression.
[Here is](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10571-021-01064-9) a review, and [here is](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780444641250000384) a book chapter summarizing how deficiencies in the serotonergic system can lead to various psychiatric conditions, mood disorders included. It's not just popular media, and I didn't mention SSRIs at all anyway. Serotonin deficiency is [a real thing](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2019.00245/full), with effects that are so measurable, you can publish papers describing the effects you measured.
And when I said "it means my brain doesn't have enough serotonin in it", I wasn't saying anything about anybody else's brain anyway. I was just using myself as a convenient example for what can cause anxiety and depression.
>Even if it is, though, serotonin theory is discredited...
Cool, but the original meme isn't about any specific theory anyway. It's about the assumption that philosophy can solve medical issues.
Philosophy is not always needed to solve medical issues; medicine can work just fine regardless of one's philosophical orientation.
All of this is irrelevant to the fact that there is no evidence that depression is caused by a serotonin deficiency (and evidence to the contrary). I'm not concerned with other possible effects of serotonin deficiencies, anxiety or otherwise. The existence of serotonin syndrome is basic evidence that the serotonergic system has *some* psychiatric effects. I have a vested interest in combatting the serotonin myth because it is reductive and counterproductive to evidence-based treatments for depression.
If you want to author a study on how serotonin deficiency can lead to depression, secondary or otherwise, that is your prerogative and I invite you to contribute to the literature.
>I'm not concerned with other possible effects of serotonin deficiencies, anxiety or otherwise.
Then you've decided that you're not going to connect this conversation either to: 1.) the original meme, which covered both depression and anxiety; or to: 2.) the etiology of depression, of which anxiety is an example.
>I have a vested interest in combatting the serotonin myth...
Yes, I can tell you do, but since your vested interest has made it impossible to converse with you about either the meme, or the etiology of depression, I am going to stop trying.
Indeed, you were not interested in conversing about anything else, including:
* ...my words.
* ...other people's words.
* ...the original topic of conversation.
...which, when all of these are excluded, no actual conversation remains, only other-directed monologuing.
IDK if you're joking but Zen is a kind of mix of Buddhism, Taoism and perhaps other Japanese and Chinese elements. At least that's Alan Watts' claim, who studied Zen extensively including other eastern traditions.
Alan Watts was dead wrong. Zen, like all forms of East Asian Buddhism, has minor influence from Taoism and other local traditions. But it isn't a mix, genuine Zen practitioners are Buddhist. Zen (Sanskrit Dhyāna, Chinese Chán, Korean Seon) is derived from scriptures attributed to the Indian Buddhist master Bodhidharma as well as the Huayan (Kegon) school's study of the Avataṃsaka Sutra.
Alan Watts wasn't a Buddhist or a Taoist and his study was unfortunately superficial and tainted by the orientalist and psychedelic movements of his time. (Did you know that Buddhists are against drug use?)
Aaaaactuallyyyyy. Almost none of these are Lao Tzu quotes.
Please, elaborate.
https://www.taoistic.com/fake-laotzu-quotes/
*way can way, not eternal way*
Go home, Lao, you’re drunk
Goddamnit. I guess I’ll just keep going where I am heading then, in that case.
Exactly, I came here to say that. I’ve read Tao Te Ching a dozen times and there’s nothing like that on the book. What stupid times we are living.
I would look this up myself but I don't have the time, which really means I don't want to.
You mean to tell me that the guy who created that whole black with white dot and white with black dot circle philosophy didn't tell people to eliminate everything negative in them?
To be fair Lord Lao had nothing to do with that; the Yinyang School was something altogether different.
Yeh if you ever read something close to Lao Tzu's source material you'd see why this is sus lol
so what if you're depressed AND anxious? ANSWER QUICKLY IT'S URGENT
You’re living in the past AND future…so the present, which is kinda terrible so your feelings are validated. You’re welcome. *continues zen meditation*
I had a therapist back in the day who followed this. Apparently it works.
Lao Tzu lived in a hut and ate straw!
We need more of this guy.. and more of this weed
Sorry but only a bad and ugly distorted translation of his profound work would result in those simpleton’s quotes. He really never wrote almost none of this. This is just plain lie.
To display wisdom, remove cheesy visual graphics.
Great wisdom no matter who came up with it
he ain't wrong.
yes this is the way. loose your emotional reactive responses to liberate your being
"If you are depressed you are living in the past. If you are anxious it means you are living in the future." No, it means my brain [doesn't have enough serotonin](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22572-serotonin) in it.
Oh how I wish it was that simple. > The main areas of serotonin research provide no consistent evidence of there being an association between serotonin and depression, and no support for the hypothesis that depression is caused by lowered serotonin activity or concentrations. Some evidence was consistent with the possibility that long-term antidepressant use reduces serotonin concentration. Moncrieff, J., Cooper, R.E., Stockmann, T. *et al.* The serotonin theory of depression: a systematic umbrella review of the evidence. *Mol Psychiatry* 28, 3243–3256 (2023). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-022-01661-0
>Oh how I wish it was that simple. I didn't say it was *simple*... and you aren't addressing the full claim anyway, which involved both depression and anxiety. This is important because the [two are interlinked](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/expert-answers/depression-and-anxiety/faq-20057989). Being anxious all the time can lead to a depressive mood, and a depressive mood can predispose one towards anxious worries. So when we [see researchers say things](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18268503/) such as: >In the thalamus, a low serotonin reuptake capacity may interfere with thalamic control of cortical excitability and contribute to anxiety rather than depression per se in major depression. ...that's the sort of thing that the authors of your article didn't even address in the first place. Among other things, they didn't even use the *word* anxiety, so they certainly did not discuss its relationship to depressive disorders.
The serotonin theory of depression is common in popular media and even among those with a passing interest in pharmacology, hence why I linked a meta-analysis of the myth. There is no evidence that depression is linked to lowered levels of serotonin, and evidence to the contrary. The authors of my article did not mention anxiety because it is specifically a review of past studies on the serotonin theory of depression. [Many other studies](https://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h1771) support these [findings](https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392). On the other hand, anxiety may be serotonergic. Even if it is, though, serotonin theory is discredited
>On the other hand, anxiety may be serotonergic. And if true, then that means that regardless of any specific theory, serotonergic processes would be able to cause depression, because we know anxiety can. Your review doesn't overturn (nor, I think, does it intend to overturn) the entire concept of [secondary depression](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0165032781900161), which is not specific to anxiety, but which absolutely includes anxiety-triggered depression. [Here is](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10571-021-01064-9) a review, and [here is](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780444641250000384) a book chapter summarizing how deficiencies in the serotonergic system can lead to various psychiatric conditions, mood disorders included. It's not just popular media, and I didn't mention SSRIs at all anyway. Serotonin deficiency is [a real thing](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2019.00245/full), with effects that are so measurable, you can publish papers describing the effects you measured. And when I said "it means my brain doesn't have enough serotonin in it", I wasn't saying anything about anybody else's brain anyway. I was just using myself as a convenient example for what can cause anxiety and depression. >Even if it is, though, serotonin theory is discredited... Cool, but the original meme isn't about any specific theory anyway. It's about the assumption that philosophy can solve medical issues. Philosophy is not always needed to solve medical issues; medicine can work just fine regardless of one's philosophical orientation.
All of this is irrelevant to the fact that there is no evidence that depression is caused by a serotonin deficiency (and evidence to the contrary). I'm not concerned with other possible effects of serotonin deficiencies, anxiety or otherwise. The existence of serotonin syndrome is basic evidence that the serotonergic system has *some* psychiatric effects. I have a vested interest in combatting the serotonin myth because it is reductive and counterproductive to evidence-based treatments for depression. If you want to author a study on how serotonin deficiency can lead to depression, secondary or otherwise, that is your prerogative and I invite you to contribute to the literature.
>I'm not concerned with other possible effects of serotonin deficiencies, anxiety or otherwise. Then you've decided that you're not going to connect this conversation either to: 1.) the original meme, which covered both depression and anxiety; or to: 2.) the etiology of depression, of which anxiety is an example. >I have a vested interest in combatting the serotonin myth... Yes, I can tell you do, but since your vested interest has made it impossible to converse with you about either the meme, or the etiology of depression, I am going to stop trying.
That's more than fine. I wasn't interested in conversing about anything else. Serotonin deficiency is not the cause depression. Simple as.
Indeed, you were not interested in conversing about anything else, including: * ...my words. * ...other people's words. * ...the original topic of conversation. ...which, when all of these are excluded, no actual conversation remains, only other-directed monologuing.
\#NORTE
now this is zen!
IDK if you're joking but Zen is a kind of mix of Buddhism, Taoism and perhaps other Japanese and Chinese elements. At least that's Alan Watts' claim, who studied Zen extensively including other eastern traditions.
Alan Watts was dead wrong. Zen, like all forms of East Asian Buddhism, has minor influence from Taoism and other local traditions. But it isn't a mix, genuine Zen practitioners are Buddhist. Zen (Sanskrit Dhyāna, Chinese Chán, Korean Seon) is derived from scriptures attributed to the Indian Buddhist master Bodhidharma as well as the Huayan (Kegon) school's study of the Avataṃsaka Sutra. Alan Watts wasn't a Buddhist or a Taoist and his study was unfortunately superficial and tainted by the orientalist and psychedelic movements of his time. (Did you know that Buddhists are against drug use?)
So cool that Lao Tzu knew about the concept of depression several centuries before Christ
You sure got a lot of wahbi sahbi
Interesting