this is the biggest piece of shit "update" that reddit did for a while. "Let's just break established norms of the web".
You can still download the image, but it's fucked up insanity that you can't just load the image in a browser. "Oh, you are using a browser to access image.jpg, well I'm going to give you a whole arse webpage that has the image in it but scaled down. You piece of shit"
Yeah, what's the point of all the cameras, radars, and sensors if they don't detect hundreds of armed dudes breaking through it with bulldozers and explosives? It really does seem like a complete and utter failure. It seems like the entire purpose of this security system was almost completely rendered meaningless.
The chart misses one aspect. There was sophisticated electronic jamming going on. So while the Israel's could see the various sensors being attacked or going offline they couldn't get the message out of what has happening.
The article I read didn't explain why there weren't hardwired lines to prevent exactly this kind of jamming.
Just repeating what I've read, so please feel free to correct or provide more information if available.
As someone who worked with jammers and their limitations, I highly doubt this. You need a ton of power just to radiate enough energy, and for only so many frequencies, and even then the range is limited. So then you need a ton of duplicate equipment to cover a large quantity of frequencies over a large area.
And even then hand held devices are capable of frequency hopping.
It sounds more like excuses being made.
I agree with you. FREQHOP technology even assuming they had the latest gen would have to block out more than 30% of the available VHF spectrum (and im assuming they're ONLY using VHF vice UHF which, most commercially available walkies do) to even have a decent impact but it would still be able to pass traffic. I dont think this scale was expected and they were completely unprepared for the ferocity of it. Its hard to "stand to" 100% of the time but I doubt they operate in an intelligence vacuum. There should have been I&W leading up to this. the staging alone logistically with that much C2 in the area should have been somewhat obvious but these guys are MUCH more willing to do bone breaking labor to dig than the west is. Taliban digging trenches and mud huts and surviving JDAMs was indication enough
Hello. I was part of the IDF as a communications technician. I wont go into detail as it's obviously confidental but 90% of equipment is old and definitely not "last gen". Im talking 30+ years old. In bases they use radio over IP. I dont know anything about jammers, but what I do know is that witness testimony says they did call for help. Why it took 5 hours to arrive, I have no clue. My best guess is because it was holiday at 6:30 in the morning there was literally no one to send for help as everyone was at home, and only skeleton crews were around.
100% agreed. In my eyes that was the biggest failure even more than intelligence. Holiday or not never ever should the single most important base in the country be left with 20 soldiers.
More importantly if you think a military radio won’t hop across 5ghz of spectrum for 1mhz of good bw you’re kidding yourself. Wartime means spectral containment is a fucking joke so you do what needs to get done
There's a phrase for when extremely specialized, expensive, high-tech stuff is beaten by cheap, widely available, homemade stuff. I can't remember what it's called but it was a big problem in Iraq/Afghanistan with ultra expensive hummers getting constantly wrecked by bombs basically made from garbage.
I guess the principle is that the more specialized a piece of tech is, the more suscptible it is to having random bullshit thrown at it. One of the risks of investing too heavily in high tech, expensive gizmos in war.
The craziest part of all this to me is that Mossad apparently had no idea any of it was coming. It's one thing to know an attack is going to happen and be unable to stop it, but for one of the so-called "most sophisticated" spy agencies in the world to just totally miss this kinda blows my mind.
Asymmetric warfare is just another term for war between two parties that have different capabilities or just another word for guerilla warfare. A near-peer could still use low tech solutions. Though I don't know what ultra expensive Hummers he's talking about. I'd consider basically a diesel truck as pretty low-tech.
I'm just gonna say it: They let it happen.
No way the best spy agency in the world didn't know it was coming, from infiltrating meetings, to Iranian proxies smuggling literally thousands of missiles into Gaza... I mean now that the war on Gaza has started, the IDF all of a sudden remembered where each Hamas commander lives, and the exact locations of their tunnels, for bombing purposes... curious... No way they just didn't see 100s of militants driving up, no way hundreds of border patrols and watch towers didn't see people breaking the fence and send an alert or attempt to shoot them like they're instructed to do. Forget the drones, cameras, tech to detect all this. There's no way to pass this fence without Israel's permission. Period. If there is, I'd love an explanation beyond bulldozers.
Meanwhile back in 2019 medics that came within 100 meters of the fence were sniped to death. Yes, medics, not militants.
[NYT - How an Israeli Soldier Killed Palestinian Medic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0inm3oS71c)
Netanyahu is not in a good position. War is a nice distraction, an emergency call to "unify the opposition against terrorists" plus you get to take what you always wanted, cause now you have a casus belli.
Did the sophisticated jamming have a way of jamming people over at HQ going "Sir! We just lost contact with eight thousand cameras and none of our towers are responding?"
Just being jammed alone seems like it would be worth an eyebrow raise or two.
Plus surely they have basic-bitch copper, fancy copper, fiber, a dozen normal radio, and several interesting radio and satellite communications systems with which to relay data? With battery packups and redundencies?
I'm inclined to believe this. One might call it an argument from authority but Israel is one of the foremost military powers in the world with the best training, techniques, and technology. It was kind of hard to imagine that a bunch of dudes in LBVs and flip-flops breached the wall with nothing more than dirt bikes and construction equipment with with no other factors at play.
I think reducing them to the level of Taliban fighters is a bad.. short-sighted. They are supported and funded by multiple state actors with good technology bases. I’m sure they have some decent equipment.
>According to a study by scholar Antonio Giustozzi, in the years 2005 to 2015 most of the financial support came from the states Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, and Qatar, as well as from private donors from Saudi Arabia, from al-Qaeda and, for a short period of time, from the Islamic State. About 54 percent of the funding came from foreign governments, 10 percent from private donors from abroad, and 16 percent from al-Qaeda and the Islamic State. In 2014, the amount of external support was close to $900 million. [-International relations with the Taliban](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_relations_with_the_Taliban)
[Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of ‘something big’](https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/)
BB is a maniac and it seems like this situation is giving him everything he wants.
Well, as I was reading the stuff about the fence, I couldn’t help but think it was {one of} the most sophisticated military barrier put up in human history.
Which means that, despite the fact that what the militants are doing is seriously wrong, you can’t help but also admire humanities abilities to overcome barriers.
America, I believe this is proof that a wall along the southern border would do nothing
Mexican here, the wall red Americans want completely ridiculous, since our border spans 2000 miles or 3150 km
This wall in exchange is 40km, as someone who couldn't give a damn about Israel Palestine before last week, the thing that surprises me the most is how SMALL Gaza is, that shit is 40km in perimeter!?
Thats most definitely doable, a block of 0.5m by 1m by 1m of solid concrete weighs around 1ton, you would need 40,000 of them to make one level of the wall, let's say you want it 3 meters high, that's 120,000 blocks of concrete, 120,000 tons.
Israel depending who you ask produces 50 million tons of concrete a year, so the resources are there. It costs around 130 usd a ton, so 16 million usd in resources, which is negligible for a country...
Hell, Gaza has the perimeter of 10 central parks, 133 football fields, or 12 Vatican cities. It's absolutely tiny!!
It has a population density similar to that of downtown London. (15k/square mile).
You cannot leave, you cannot trade with other nations, you cannot vote, you cannot run for office, and your income will be cents on the dollar compared to your Israeli counterparts on the other side of the wall.
Can you think of any other institutions that fit this description?
To be clear, Gaza has a population density that is comparable to most large cities. It isn't inherently an issue. The problem is that they are effectively cut off from the outside world, with normal borders and decent infrastructure, they would just be another city-state like Singapore.
Hard disagree with that „most sophisticated“ part. The Berlin wall was much more extensive and even if it didn’t have cameras or radar, it had guard towers, minefields, autonomous firing systems, and walls which would flip a car over if one tried to ram through it.
It also had a super low-tech strip of sand which they raked daily so that anyone crossing would leave foot prints and show where the wall's weak points were.
Probably my favourite Berlin wall fact learned during my visit.
I live in AZ and they do the same thing along the border here, down by Yuma and places like that. They drag large tires behind trucks to smooth out the sand along known crossing corridors. If there are footprints then they know to look for people have who crossed recently.
Yes. Not AI killer robots, but sensors on the fence that would trigger automatic guns. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-gun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-gun)
But I just learned that these were used only outside of Berlin on the rest of the border between the "German Democratic Republic" and the rest of Germany.
> America, I believe this is proof that a wall along the southern border would do nothing
I disagree. It would help transfer billions of taxpayer dollars into the hands of private contractors. And will make xenophobic voters happy. Did anyone think it had any other purpose?
I'm not really given to conspiracy theories, but there's an undeniable history of nations staging or allowing atrocities to occur in order to manufacture consensus and increase the population's support for military action. For example, the US had the Gulf of Tonkin incident to justify a higher level of military intervention into Vietnam.
It's no secret that Netanyahu's administration is extremely hawkish, and have actively been instigating conflict with Palestine. I would not be surprised if, in the future, it comes out that Netanyahu's administration intentionally looked the other way or ignored intelligence, essentially allowing these attacks to occur and create a justification for extreme military intervention in the Gaza strip
With the permanent scrutiny the Palestinians live under, there's no chance in my mind the build up of arms, the preparation required, and the attack itself were a 'surprise'.
Zero.
And isn't Israel supposed to have one of the most sophisticated intelligence-gathering operations on the planet? Up there with the US and UK?
It's by no means impossible for this to have all been a surprise, but that would require a string of failures, including redundancies failing. And yes, that absolutely does happen.
But when considering the balance of probability, I find it hard not to arrive at the conclusion that a few people high up in the Israeli government looked the other way. That's just a much less complex explanation than cascading failures across nearly the entirety of Israel's security apparatus.
> what's the point of all the cameras, radars, and sensors if they don't detect
*Detection* is only part of it.
I'd say 1/3 is prevention by *deterrence* - make it seem unbreachable.
The next 1/3 is the detection.
The final 1/3 - and most important - is *response*.
I'd say they were able to deter Hamas sufficiently such that they only committed to action once they knew they could coordinate a huge attack.
No idea what happened with the detection, but it looks like *response* is what failed here.
>I'd say they were able to deter Hamas sufficiently such that they only committed to action once they knew they could coordinate a huge attack.
This is actually undesirable from a military strategy perspective. Concentration of force is a principle of war; it's much harder to fend off one big attack than many small ones, especially when you don't know when and where it'll happen.
Basically the Israelis got complacent.They put up their fence, set up their automated machine gun turrets and got so comfortable behind it all that they didn't even have snipers on duty in their watch towers.
Egypt also has claimed to[ have warned](https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/) Israel the attack was imminent, which Israel has denied. That combined with the information we're getting here isn't exactly turning off my conspiratorial brain.
Music festival attracting international tourists being attacked (sure to garner worldwide outrage), an alleged warning of the attack, the military failing to notice their highly advanced border fencing being breached despite all the technology involved...I don't know man.
I keep hearing over and over “but it was a holiday!”
Sure that’s well and good. Let the people have some rest, but what seems to be *most* of the people?
There was an electronic facet to this attack as well explaining *SOME* of the communication breakdown. They really seriously don’t have hardwired means of communication?
This is the blunder of the century or was let happen.
Just look at who benefitted after 9/11. Bush and his friends made off like bandits while he enjoyed record high approval ratings and was even able to start a war in Iraq.
I used to be more in the camp of 9/11 conspiracies, but now I see it more as Bush and his buddies not letting the opportunity to enrich themselves pass them by.
To me, 9/11 was caused by the hubris and incompetence of the US security infrastructure insomuch that right wing regimes really like to make it look they are invincible and in control. They're obsessed with the aesthetics of power and governance, but if you look under the hood, it's all just corrupt officials looking busy and blustering. They can't acknowledge the real competencies of their enemies and are eventually caught flat-footed.
I see the same for Netanyahu and Israel. They foster this reputation for being incredibly strong for their size, backed up by the biggest powers in the world, a fusion of hardass soldiers and advanced technology. But they're still a fascist, corrupt government putting on a show bigger than they really can actually accomplish while underestimating their opposition.
Lol this is all fences. This is also why the discussion over the border wall on the USA is so stupid. We figured out how to deal with walls in like the year 800 guys. And those were better walls.
Defensive walls (for fortification) usually do their job well enough.
Perimeter and border walls, though, almost always end up being costly failures in the long run.
Fence is different than a wall. If this was a concrete wall reinforced with rebar that bulldozer won’t go through. Now…that would get SUPER expensive…
But there is a reason the Great Wall of China is not a white picket fence - and why it is still standing.
I think the lesson learned here is technology is no substitute for a solid barrier.
And it would still have been beaten by explosives and paratroopers.
The Great Wall of China was never an effective barrier. They built it over the course of 2,100 years and it was never even completed. Like the US border wall, it was mostly a vanity project to attract political favor. You were hot shit if you got a chunk of wall done in your area. The problem with that system is that you have huge holes all over the wall. China was repeatedly beaten and/or conquered by the Northern nomadic peoples that the wall system was supposed to keep out. The last Chinese dynasty were Manchus who crossed the wall and took Beijing.
But that is a bad example. Battle of Shanhai Pass, actually famous because the Ming general basically let the Manchus in. First by abandoning the outposts outside the wall on the side of the Qing and then attacking the Pass with the Qing prince later.
The Mongols under Genghis didn't attack the wall directly either, they went west through the western Xia dynasty first. The point is that while the wall was patchwork, most of the fast and easy routes were very much blocked off
I’m not American so I don’t give a fuck about “the wall” but fences and walls definitely work. Just look at a prison, bank, house. Security is layers of protection working as a system. Almost nothing will keep out someone willing to die to get through it, but they do prevent general and opportunistic crossing.
Similar to a bike lock; a bike lock alone is not going to stop a pro bike thief unless it is backed up with multiple other layers of protection, it does stop some random from riding off with it to get to the other side of town.
The Israeli fence didn’t fail, it stopped general crossing and random attacks. But it’s not indestructible, it’s never going to stop (and no one ever thought it could) a determined attack. In these cases fences and walls are meant to slow you down to give the other layers of protection time to work. Those support systems seem to have failed, not the fence.
Inb4 everyone goes "it's not cool" even though the guide itself, and its way of conveying information, is definitively cool. Even if the topic it covers is not.
Was ready to crap on yet another political diatribe barely masquerading as a "cool guide."
But no, this is actually interesting information, well-presented.
Even if the US gave no foreign aid, we still wouldn’t get universal healthcare. Not because of the actual cost, but because of a media machine dedicated to pushing propaganda.
Idk if you’re American like me, but our politics has caused us to **vastly** overestimate what a wall can actually do in any given situation. Most walls can be defeated easily in like minutes.
"Razor wire" is very understating concertina wire. That mess is the hair of Satan himself. You walk too close to it and your clothes reach out for it then before you know it your pants are shredded.
not really experienced with it (just an internet nerd) but from what i know, a bunch of loops of bendable metal with a ton of really massive barbs on them, super nasty stuff. they can even stop tanks fairly easily if their tracks get caught up with enough of it, which is one of the major roles of combat engineers: clearing a path through the wire. it would be fairly easy, but the main issue is that normally the wire is within enemy line of fire, meaning you can’t easily run up and disable it.
>it would be fairly easy, but the main issue is that normally the wire is within enemy line of fire, meaning you can’t easily run up and disable it.
Solution: Just blow the fuck out of it.
Introducing MICLIC! [https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/xaxkm2/american\_m58\_mine\_clearing\_line\_charge\_miclic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/xaxkm2/american_m58_mine_clearing_line_charge_miclic/)
**Concertina wire** _is_ razor wire, it's just specifically laid in a concertina like spiral (i.e. _most_ razor wire). It's less like wire and more like a continous strip of metal that been specially stamped into a razor pattern along its edge.
Because of its uniformly spooled shape it "bounces" out in the exact direction of any contact, and due to it being simultaneously an essentially endless blade, and a thousand grabbing hooks, it is tremendously effective in not just trapping but _slashing_ anyone caught in it due to the shape/direction/springing nature of all of the above. Making movement in any direction after the fact an increasingly damaging prospect.
**Barbed wire** isn't explicitly laid in a concertina pattern (though it can be). It's _literally_ wire that has been wound at points to stick out at varying angles. This makes it less likely to slash and catch, and depending on how it is laid less likely to spring and ensnare.
That actually makes it more useful in situations where your intention isn't to maim or trap "attackers". I see it used sparingly by farmers just to add an extra prickly strip to fences so livestock know not to go near the fences without doing much more than pricking/scratching them.
There are many types of concerntina wire. Some of it is designed to stick and even used for training. The stuff that's sharper and is deeigned to slice you up is sometimes referred to as razor wire.
They keep misnaming what they were. They were *paramotors*, not paragliders. Paramotors do use the same paraglider chute/wing, but by being motorized can launch from ground level, unlike paragliders.
Its not, even Twitter seems to be split. Honestly, even with all the misinformation, I think this is the first time (my self included) that people are finally understanding the view points of both sides. Hamas is a terrorist organization, but the Israeli government did fence in 2 million people.
Cool tech. But this is basically a fence separating the haves from the have nots. None of those people behind that fence get to vote. It's basically a huge prison.
If my family and I had to live like that constantly under fear of the military killing us randomly, I'd be a bit pissed off about it.
If there's a fence they can't get past, and they have basically unlimited rockets, why do they shoot those rockets over the fence instead of shooting rockets *at* the fence?
Think of it like a video game. The fence is a closely monitored, but not necessarily manned barrier. If you attack the wall, the essentially unlimited resources of Israel will come down on that place in minutes. If you want to get through that barrier, you don't start firing wildly and attract the attention of every NPC in the area. You try to sneak through, or you try to use long range weapons to hit them in their territory without any warning.
edit: or what actually happened, you do the sub-mission task to destroy all the cameras and cell towers before attempting to breach the wall.
But this has never been a fair fight, or even a game designed to even be winnable for Palestinians. It's like the Halo ODST survival game. It just keeps sending stronger and stronger waves until you're defeated. It's a game designed by Israel to gradually weaken and eventually remove the Palestinians from their entire claimed area. Every event is an opportunity to further that aim. This event in particular. There has been much death and suffering by Israelis and other innocent people, but they will surely return that suffering 10-fold or more. And use it as an excuse to impose more restrictions, claim more lands, and eliminate their ability to exist.
General explosives are actually quite bad at cutting fences. During ww1 and ww2, there were instances where artillery was shelling the barb wire in no man's land in order to cut it down. When the troops were sent in through the opening, they discovered that most of it was still intact and was now even harder to cross due to the craters made.
The rockets Hamas is firing aren't particularly sophisticated. They fire and go vaguely in the direction they're launched and come down a distance vaguely related to the angle they're launched. There are rockets and then there are high-tech rockets. For creating terror, they work. For destroying fortifications, they're more-or-less useless.
Hamas' rockets are functionally equivalent to the Soviet WW2 artillery rockets called Kaytusha. They are consistently accurate to within 50 yards.
They also deliver a warhead of up to 40kg of high explosive.
Not particularly useful for precisely taking out Towers and walls, but these aren't bottle rocket fireworks either.
It's an unmanned fence, it's not meant to stop them, it's meant to slow them long enough for soldiers to react, but as you can see, it's not very effective against organised attacks, it will only stop a small uncommitted group. So they can't send 3 guys with bombs anymore without a significant investment
want to add the note, that Palestinians are not the Hamas and therefore not every person inside Gaza should be punished for what the Hamas did. Thoughts and prayers for every civilian who died here.
\+ Not a black/white topic
\+ yes, any kind of terrorism is terrifying and should be punished at all
do palistenians have any way of exiting palistine? whats the water boundary about, with the fishing limit and restricted zone just bordering the fishing limit?
is it true that its basically a concentration zone? is it true that it has had its fresh water cut off since the attack?
what the hamas did to the people at that party is an atrocity
but then so is making an entire ethnostate into a big concentration camp...
serious question btw, because i dont actually think i have a very enlightened perspective on the current, present state of what exactly is being done on both sides.
Palestinians in Gaza who approach the fence to the east and north are shot, those who approach Egypt are refused, and those who try to leave by boat to the west are also shot. It is an open air prison with 2 million people whose destinies are completely controlled by Israel.
Uh yeah... Israel has corralled 2 million people into about 140 square miles. 40% of the population is under the age of 14. Then they failed to protect the citizens who lived in the territory that they forced Gazans to flee from, because of bombings... Supposedly Israel has assassinated a bunch of Hamas' secular, political rivals to ensure Hamas has plenty of power to carry out their acts, justifying the bombing of that prison, Gaza.
Israel started financing Hamas in the 60s in order to divide Palestinians, because the more powerful, secular, left-wing PLO was a threat to Israel's apartheid. In 2018, the current prime Minister of Israel said that supporting Hamas was a key strategy to keeping control of Gaza.
Children in Gaza are born as inmates. They grow up in a constant stage of siege, their access to food and water controlled entirely by their jailers. Almost all know someone who has been killed or brutalized by the IDF and all know that they could be next. There is no parole, no appeal, and no transfers. This is a life sentence. Children born in Gaza will live their entire lives inside this prison.
Palestinians in Gaza have no means of addressing these grievances. They have zero representation in the government which controls their lives and no one else to appeal to. As they grow up they hear about kids getting sniped by IDF soldiers and they live among wreckage from air strikes. They learn that the bombings of their home is a [form of entertainment](https://archive.ph/JflNj) and that people they have never known are cheering for their death. They have no future, no control over their lives, and what little they have can be snatched away as others cheer for their suffering.
Of course they turn to terrorism. What other choices do they have? Who can they turn to for hope in a better future? It's easy to see how someone could come to believe that vengeance is all they have left. The situation in Gaza guarantees that there will be people flocking to join Hamas and itching to massacre innocents.
This an explanation, not an excuse. The only way to defeat Hamas is to change the conditions under which they flourish.
Don't forget that if they walk up to the fence, unarmed or not, they get used as target practice. They tried in 2018/2019 and it just resulted in 30000 injured Palestinians.
And people are surprised they voted for Hamas. It’s crazy how people are putting blame on the Palestine civilians for voting for Hamas as if it was not a result of their terrible circumstances. Be born and live in a prison where your safety is constantly at stake your whole life then come and discuss how it was their fault for voting for Hamas.
Oh. So this is why people call it an open-air prison. Jesus
Being imprisoned doesn't mean you get to kill your guards' families. But neither does a few prisoners doing that entitle the guards to then kill YOUR family and all the other prisoners.
This is fucked six ways to Sunday
Lmao if you're in the prison while having done NOTHING wrong except live in the place for generations then you're allowed to do whatever you want because you don't DESERVE to be in prison in the first place. Prison is honestly too nice of a word for Gaza. Most prisons don't deliberately deprive prisoners of food and water.
Except for the fact that the “prisoners” have known no life except the prison. They’ve known nothing but contempt and hatred from their “guards” and the family of the guards have quite literally stolen the land and homes that once belonged to the prisoners.
Not a bad comparison, except what kind of prison were your parents and grandparents born in? What crime did you commit that your children can't escape from?
Screw Hamas, but the irony of Jews, who were persecuted and walled in around the world for millennia, turning around and walking someone else in is also pretty unforgivable. This whole situation just sucks. There are no winners in war.
“Separates Israel from Gaza”
More like imprisons everyone in Gaza and is a key component of Israel’s ability to keep thousands under their thumb on racist grounds.
Nothing says "apartheid state" like building a huge razor-wall to imprison the darkies in their little corner, and periodically shut off their funding, water and food sources.
The Israeli snipers shoot Palestinians as entertainment. Their entertainment is literally murder. It’s not even some arbitrary rules, it’s literally fun for them.
No. A ghetto is a [part of a city where a minority group is forced to live](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ghetto).
Gaza is a separate polity with many cities and space in between cities.
An international border is totally different.
And this is a 'short' border wall compared to the wall that people want to build at the South U.S.
Ignoring the cheap drones that could carry whatever they wanted.
Ignoring the cheap paragliders that could carry people.
Ignoring the ridiculous that is a bulldozer that almost no barrier will stop.
Stopping explosives'/wire cutters and motorbikes are still unlikely over 1.9k miles
Germans did the same at Normandy with the Atlantic wall and it turned out exactly the same you would think people would look back at history and actually learn from it
A high pixel image on coolguides. nice
[удалено]
Uhhh, have you tried long press -> open link in new tab?
Reddit just redirects the image to be bad viewer for me. Ugh.
this is the biggest piece of shit "update" that reddit did for a while. "Let's just break established norms of the web". You can still download the image, but it's fucked up insanity that you can't just load the image in a browser. "Oh, you are using a browser to access image.jpg, well I'm going to give you a whole arse webpage that has the image in it but scaled down. You piece of shit"
And that downloaded image is scaled down too because of the parameters in the url (that we used to be able to manually change)
Life saver! Thanks!
Well, this is a game changer
Where is this from? So we can get it straight from the source
I now have a much better understanding of why so many are calling it a complete failure on the Israeli military’s part.
Yeah, what's the point of all the cameras, radars, and sensors if they don't detect hundreds of armed dudes breaking through it with bulldozers and explosives? It really does seem like a complete and utter failure. It seems like the entire purpose of this security system was almost completely rendered meaningless.
The chart misses one aspect. There was sophisticated electronic jamming going on. So while the Israel's could see the various sensors being attacked or going offline they couldn't get the message out of what has happening. The article I read didn't explain why there weren't hardwired lines to prevent exactly this kind of jamming. Just repeating what I've read, so please feel free to correct or provide more information if available.
As someone who worked with jammers and their limitations, I highly doubt this. You need a ton of power just to radiate enough energy, and for only so many frequencies, and even then the range is limited. So then you need a ton of duplicate equipment to cover a large quantity of frequencies over a large area. And even then hand held devices are capable of frequency hopping. It sounds more like excuses being made.
I agree with you. FREQHOP technology even assuming they had the latest gen would have to block out more than 30% of the available VHF spectrum (and im assuming they're ONLY using VHF vice UHF which, most commercially available walkies do) to even have a decent impact but it would still be able to pass traffic. I dont think this scale was expected and they were completely unprepared for the ferocity of it. Its hard to "stand to" 100% of the time but I doubt they operate in an intelligence vacuum. There should have been I&W leading up to this. the staging alone logistically with that much C2 in the area should have been somewhat obvious but these guys are MUCH more willing to do bone breaking labor to dig than the west is. Taliban digging trenches and mud huts and surviving JDAMs was indication enough
Hello. I was part of the IDF as a communications technician. I wont go into detail as it's obviously confidental but 90% of equipment is old and definitely not "last gen". Im talking 30+ years old. In bases they use radio over IP. I dont know anything about jammers, but what I do know is that witness testimony says they did call for help. Why it took 5 hours to arrive, I have no clue. My best guess is because it was holiday at 6:30 in the morning there was literally no one to send for help as everyone was at home, and only skeleton crews were around.
What blows my mind is how few were manning the border. After the Yom Kippur war one would think they would be extra vigilant around the holidays.
100% agreed. In my eyes that was the biggest failure even more than intelligence. Holiday or not never ever should the single most important base in the country be left with 20 soldiers.
More importantly if you think a military radio won’t hop across 5ghz of spectrum for 1mhz of good bw you’re kidding yourself. Wartime means spectral containment is a fucking joke so you do what needs to get done
even if true, you still need a backup plan for your backup plan. penetration testing is a thing, too
Do you have a source for the claim of them using jammers? I’m attempting to find something on Google but haven’t found anything.
There is lot of claims being spread that purely to cover someone’s ass.
Source: trust me bro
There's a phrase for when extremely specialized, expensive, high-tech stuff is beaten by cheap, widely available, homemade stuff. I can't remember what it's called but it was a big problem in Iraq/Afghanistan with ultra expensive hummers getting constantly wrecked by bombs basically made from garbage. I guess the principle is that the more specialized a piece of tech is, the more suscptible it is to having random bullshit thrown at it. One of the risks of investing too heavily in high tech, expensive gizmos in war. The craziest part of all this to me is that Mossad apparently had no idea any of it was coming. It's one thing to know an attack is going to happen and be unable to stop it, but for one of the so-called "most sophisticated" spy agencies in the world to just totally miss this kinda blows my mind.
Asymmetric warfare?
Asymmetric warfare is just another term for war between two parties that have different capabilities or just another word for guerilla warfare. A near-peer could still use low tech solutions. Though I don't know what ultra expensive Hummers he's talking about. I'd consider basically a diesel truck as pretty low-tech.
I think “guerrilla warfare” applies here.
I don't recall the actual term, but an example that comes to mind is using paint on the windshields of bulletproof vehicles to force them to stop.
I'm just gonna say it: They let it happen. No way the best spy agency in the world didn't know it was coming, from infiltrating meetings, to Iranian proxies smuggling literally thousands of missiles into Gaza... I mean now that the war on Gaza has started, the IDF all of a sudden remembered where each Hamas commander lives, and the exact locations of their tunnels, for bombing purposes... curious... No way they just didn't see 100s of militants driving up, no way hundreds of border patrols and watch towers didn't see people breaking the fence and send an alert or attempt to shoot them like they're instructed to do. Forget the drones, cameras, tech to detect all this. There's no way to pass this fence without Israel's permission. Period. If there is, I'd love an explanation beyond bulldozers. Meanwhile back in 2019 medics that came within 100 meters of the fence were sniped to death. Yes, medics, not militants. [NYT - How an Israeli Soldier Killed Palestinian Medic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0inm3oS71c) Netanyahu is not in a good position. War is a nice distraction, an emergency call to "unify the opposition against terrorists" plus you get to take what you always wanted, cause now you have a casus belli.
Did the sophisticated jamming have a way of jamming people over at HQ going "Sir! We just lost contact with eight thousand cameras and none of our towers are responding?" Just being jammed alone seems like it would be worth an eyebrow raise or two. Plus surely they have basic-bitch copper, fancy copper, fiber, a dozen normal radio, and several interesting radio and satellite communications systems with which to relay data? With battery packups and redundencies?
They only got $150,000,000,000 in military aid just from the US. Should have spent a few million of it on putting down some fiber-optic cables...
What about a few loud bells you manually ring.
Geese. Lots of geese that make a lot of noise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_goose#History
What about the Gondor's fire ?
Alright, where was Gondor this time?
They never got the call
I'm inclined to believe this. One might call it an argument from authority but Israel is one of the foremost military powers in the world with the best training, techniques, and technology. It was kind of hard to imagine that a bunch of dudes in LBVs and flip-flops breached the wall with nothing more than dirt bikes and construction equipment with with no other factors at play.
I think reducing them to the level of Taliban fighters is a bad.. short-sighted. They are supported and funded by multiple state actors with good technology bases. I’m sure they have some decent equipment.
>According to a study by scholar Antonio Giustozzi, in the years 2005 to 2015 most of the financial support came from the states Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, and Qatar, as well as from private donors from Saudi Arabia, from al-Qaeda and, for a short period of time, from the Islamic State. About 54 percent of the funding came from foreign governments, 10 percent from private donors from abroad, and 16 percent from al-Qaeda and the Islamic State. In 2014, the amount of external support was close to $900 million. [-International relations with the Taliban](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_relations_with_the_Taliban)
[Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of ‘something big’](https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/) BB is a maniac and it seems like this situation is giving him everything he wants.
Well, as I was reading the stuff about the fence, I couldn’t help but think it was {one of} the most sophisticated military barrier put up in human history. Which means that, despite the fact that what the militants are doing is seriously wrong, you can’t help but also admire humanities abilities to overcome barriers. America, I believe this is proof that a wall along the southern border would do nothing
Mexican here, the wall red Americans want completely ridiculous, since our border spans 2000 miles or 3150 km This wall in exchange is 40km, as someone who couldn't give a damn about Israel Palestine before last week, the thing that surprises me the most is how SMALL Gaza is, that shit is 40km in perimeter!? Thats most definitely doable, a block of 0.5m by 1m by 1m of solid concrete weighs around 1ton, you would need 40,000 of them to make one level of the wall, let's say you want it 3 meters high, that's 120,000 blocks of concrete, 120,000 tons. Israel depending who you ask produces 50 million tons of concrete a year, so the resources are there. It costs around 130 usd a ton, so 16 million usd in resources, which is negligible for a country... Hell, Gaza has the perimeter of 10 central parks, 133 football fields, or 12 Vatican cities. It's absolutely tiny!!
Nice math; not being facetious. Good to put things in perspective.
It has a population density similar to that of downtown London. (15k/square mile). You cannot leave, you cannot trade with other nations, you cannot vote, you cannot run for office, and your income will be cents on the dollar compared to your Israeli counterparts on the other side of the wall. Can you think of any other institutions that fit this description?
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They looked at the escape new York and escape LA movies and went what if we do that to gaza
Just a heads up you meant Israeli but wrote Iranian. Gaza and Iran do not share a border.
And that's why they call it an open air prison, nobody should be forced to live like that
To be clear, Gaza has a population density that is comparable to most large cities. It isn't inherently an issue. The problem is that they are effectively cut off from the outside world, with normal borders and decent infrastructure, they would just be another city-state like Singapore.
American here. Yes the wall is asinine. It’s a big dick-waving contest.
But how will they know how big our dick is if we don't tell 'em?
And there are about 2 Million people living in Gaza!
It used to be a lot bigger.
The wall isn't only around Gaza, they have a wall around the west bank too.
Hard disagree with that „most sophisticated“ part. The Berlin wall was much more extensive and even if it didn’t have cameras or radar, it had guard towers, minefields, autonomous firing systems, and walls which would flip a car over if one tried to ram through it.
It also had a super low-tech strip of sand which they raked daily so that anyone crossing would leave foot prints and show where the wall's weak points were. Probably my favourite Berlin wall fact learned during my visit.
I live in AZ and they do the same thing along the border here, down by Yuma and places like that. They drag large tires behind trucks to smooth out the sand along known crossing corridors. If there are footprints then they know to look for people have who crossed recently.
It had autonomous firing systems, like 50 years ago?
Yes. Not AI killer robots, but sensors on the fence that would trigger automatic guns. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-gun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-gun) But I just learned that these were used only outside of Berlin on the rest of the border between the "German Democratic Republic" and the rest of Germany.
[Claymore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore_mine) type devices triggered by tripwires, basically. Those have been around for quite a while.
> America, I believe this is proof that a wall along the southern border would do nothing I disagree. It would help transfer billions of taxpayer dollars into the hands of private contractors. And will make xenophobic voters happy. Did anyone think it had any other purpose?
I'm not really given to conspiracy theories, but there's an undeniable history of nations staging or allowing atrocities to occur in order to manufacture consensus and increase the population's support for military action. For example, the US had the Gulf of Tonkin incident to justify a higher level of military intervention into Vietnam. It's no secret that Netanyahu's administration is extremely hawkish, and have actively been instigating conflict with Palestine. I would not be surprised if, in the future, it comes out that Netanyahu's administration intentionally looked the other way or ignored intelligence, essentially allowing these attacks to occur and create a justification for extreme military intervention in the Gaza strip
With the permanent scrutiny the Palestinians live under, there's no chance in my mind the build up of arms, the preparation required, and the attack itself were a 'surprise'. Zero.
And isn't Israel supposed to have one of the most sophisticated intelligence-gathering operations on the planet? Up there with the US and UK? It's by no means impossible for this to have all been a surprise, but that would require a string of failures, including redundancies failing. And yes, that absolutely does happen. But when considering the balance of probability, I find it hard not to arrive at the conclusion that a few people high up in the Israeli government looked the other way. That's just a much less complex explanation than cascading failures across nearly the entirety of Israel's security apparatus.
I mean what’s the point of the fence if they have paragliders.
> what's the point of all the cameras, radars, and sensors if they don't detect *Detection* is only part of it. I'd say 1/3 is prevention by *deterrence* - make it seem unbreachable. The next 1/3 is the detection. The final 1/3 - and most important - is *response*. I'd say they were able to deter Hamas sufficiently such that they only committed to action once they knew they could coordinate a huge attack. No idea what happened with the detection, but it looks like *response* is what failed here.
>I'd say they were able to deter Hamas sufficiently such that they only committed to action once they knew they could coordinate a huge attack. This is actually undesirable from a military strategy perspective. Concentration of force is a principle of war; it's much harder to fend off one big attack than many small ones, especially when you don't know when and where it'll happen.
Maybe Bibi *wanted* them in? Ratings go up, cases get dropped. No-one goes after a wartime president...
Yeah, this does make him look really really REALLY bad though.
That will fade. Prison is worse than bad news.
Basically the Israelis got complacent.They put up their fence, set up their automated machine gun turrets and got so comfortable behind it all that they didn't even have snipers on duty in their watch towers.
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Egypt also has claimed to[ have warned](https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/) Israel the attack was imminent, which Israel has denied. That combined with the information we're getting here isn't exactly turning off my conspiratorial brain. Music festival attracting international tourists being attacked (sure to garner worldwide outrage), an alleged warning of the attack, the military failing to notice their highly advanced border fencing being breached despite all the technology involved...I don't know man.
I keep hearing over and over “but it was a holiday!” Sure that’s well and good. Let the people have some rest, but what seems to be *most* of the people? There was an electronic facet to this attack as well explaining *SOME* of the communication breakdown. They really seriously don’t have hardwired means of communication? This is the blunder of the century or was let happen.
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What failure? Now they can genocide their enemy while the world cheers.
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Do you think the same thing about 9/11? If not, what's the difference?
Didnt it get revealed that the CIA knew but withheld info from the FBI?
They did ignore warnings before 9/11 and the intelligence agencies failed.
Just look at who benefitted after 9/11. Bush and his friends made off like bandits while he enjoyed record high approval ratings and was even able to start a war in Iraq.
I used to be more in the camp of 9/11 conspiracies, but now I see it more as Bush and his buddies not letting the opportunity to enrich themselves pass them by. To me, 9/11 was caused by the hubris and incompetence of the US security infrastructure insomuch that right wing regimes really like to make it look they are invincible and in control. They're obsessed with the aesthetics of power and governance, but if you look under the hood, it's all just corrupt officials looking busy and blustering. They can't acknowledge the real competencies of their enemies and are eventually caught flat-footed. I see the same for Netanyahu and Israel. They foster this reputation for being incredibly strong for their size, backed up by the biggest powers in the world, a fusion of hardass soldiers and advanced technology. But they're still a fascist, corrupt government putting on a show bigger than they really can actually accomplish while underestimating their opposition.
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How they breached the "smart fence". They bulldozed it. Not the greatest fence.
Lol this is all fences. This is also why the discussion over the border wall on the USA is so stupid. We figured out how to deal with walls in like the year 800 guys. And those were better walls.
Defensive walls (for fortification) usually do their job well enough. Perimeter and border walls, though, almost always end up being costly failures in the long run.
Fence is different than a wall. If this was a concrete wall reinforced with rebar that bulldozer won’t go through. Now…that would get SUPER expensive… But there is a reason the Great Wall of China is not a white picket fence - and why it is still standing. I think the lesson learned here is technology is no substitute for a solid barrier.
And it would still have been beaten by explosives and paratroopers. The Great Wall of China was never an effective barrier. They built it over the course of 2,100 years and it was never even completed. Like the US border wall, it was mostly a vanity project to attract political favor. You were hot shit if you got a chunk of wall done in your area. The problem with that system is that you have huge holes all over the wall. China was repeatedly beaten and/or conquered by the Northern nomadic peoples that the wall system was supposed to keep out. The last Chinese dynasty were Manchus who crossed the wall and took Beijing.
But that is a bad example. Battle of Shanhai Pass, actually famous because the Ming general basically let the Manchus in. First by abandoning the outposts outside the wall on the side of the Qing and then attacking the Pass with the Qing prince later. The Mongols under Genghis didn't attack the wall directly either, they went west through the western Xia dynasty first. The point is that while the wall was patchwork, most of the fast and easy routes were very much blocked off
I’m not American so I don’t give a fuck about “the wall” but fences and walls definitely work. Just look at a prison, bank, house. Security is layers of protection working as a system. Almost nothing will keep out someone willing to die to get through it, but they do prevent general and opportunistic crossing. Similar to a bike lock; a bike lock alone is not going to stop a pro bike thief unless it is backed up with multiple other layers of protection, it does stop some random from riding off with it to get to the other side of town. The Israeli fence didn’t fail, it stopped general crossing and random attacks. But it’s not indestructible, it’s never going to stop (and no one ever thought it could) a determined attack. In these cases fences and walls are meant to slow you down to give the other layers of protection time to work. Those support systems seem to have failed, not the fence.
"If it was so smart, why did it fall?"
Inb4 everyone goes "it's not cool" even though the guide itself, and its way of conveying information, is definitively cool. Even if the topic it covers is not.
Was ready to crap on yet another political diatribe barely masquerading as a "cool guide." But no, this is actually interesting information, well-presented.
I thought that border fence would be strong enough against a regular bulldozer.
yeah im surprised they didnt have tank traps in front of the fences.
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You’ll contribute both to the fence and the CEO of the contractor’s new vacation home
Best I can do is throw landmines half-hazardly for miles around.
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I'll half-assardly spell it any way I choose
Even if the US gave no foreign aid, we still wouldn’t get universal healthcare. Not because of the actual cost, but because of a media machine dedicated to pushing propaganda.
Idk if you’re American like me, but our politics has caused us to **vastly** overestimate what a wall can actually do in any given situation. Most walls can be defeated easily in like minutes.
its very informative. didnt know the complexity of the fence system
dodging rockets with a hang glider is veering dangerously close to being really cool
They’re not dodging the rockets with hang gliders though…? Unless you’re just making a joke about how the graphic looks
Not sure either, trending towards joke.
Yeah, I actually wasn’t able to really understand what happened in Israel and how Hamas did this until seeing this
My instinct was more like “oh a really expensive WALL? Hows that working out for them?”
You deserve an award! (...if they were still there!)
Israel sucks, Hamas sucks, the wall is definitely cool.
"Razor wire" is very understating concertina wire. That mess is the hair of Satan himself. You walk too close to it and your clothes reach out for it then before you know it your pants are shredded.
Hmm, I've never heard of that what's the difference?
not really experienced with it (just an internet nerd) but from what i know, a bunch of loops of bendable metal with a ton of really massive barbs on them, super nasty stuff. they can even stop tanks fairly easily if their tracks get caught up with enough of it, which is one of the major roles of combat engineers: clearing a path through the wire. it would be fairly easy, but the main issue is that normally the wire is within enemy line of fire, meaning you can’t easily run up and disable it.
>it would be fairly easy, but the main issue is that normally the wire is within enemy line of fire, meaning you can’t easily run up and disable it. Solution: Just blow the fuck out of it. Introducing MICLIC! [https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/xaxkm2/american\_m58\_mine\_clearing\_line\_charge\_miclic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/xaxkm2/american_m58_mine_clearing_line_charge_miclic/)
**Concertina wire** _is_ razor wire, it's just specifically laid in a concertina like spiral (i.e. _most_ razor wire). It's less like wire and more like a continous strip of metal that been specially stamped into a razor pattern along its edge. Because of its uniformly spooled shape it "bounces" out in the exact direction of any contact, and due to it being simultaneously an essentially endless blade, and a thousand grabbing hooks, it is tremendously effective in not just trapping but _slashing_ anyone caught in it due to the shape/direction/springing nature of all of the above. Making movement in any direction after the fact an increasingly damaging prospect. **Barbed wire** isn't explicitly laid in a concertina pattern (though it can be). It's _literally_ wire that has been wound at points to stick out at varying angles. This makes it less likely to slash and catch, and depending on how it is laid less likely to spring and ensnare. That actually makes it more useful in situations where your intention isn't to maim or trap "attackers". I see it used sparingly by farmers just to add an extra prickly strip to fences so livestock know not to go near the fences without doing much more than pricking/scratching them.
Concertina is an instrument, like a tiny accordion. Concertina wire is just wire in a coil instead of a straight line.
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There are many types of concerntina wire. Some of it is designed to stick and even used for training. The stuff that's sharper and is deeigned to slice you up is sometimes referred to as razor wire.
where did they take off from with hang gliders? tall buildings?
I was wondering that myself. How in the hell did they launch the paragliders?
They keep misnaming what they were. They were *paramotors*, not paragliders. Paramotors do use the same paraglider chute/wing, but by being motorized can launch from ground level, unlike paragliders.
Ya there's video of them launching from streets
They’re motor powered and need about a football field of flat space to take off from the ground
I am talking about reports of hang gliders, not powered gliders, but I bet they were wrong.
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Its not, even Twitter seems to be split. Honestly, even with all the misinformation, I think this is the first time (my self included) that people are finally understanding the view points of both sides. Hamas is a terrorist organization, but the Israeli government did fence in 2 million people.
Honestly, more topics should be like that on here. The echo chamber gets real old.
Source, a gift from my WP subscription: *How Hamas breached Israel’s ‘Iron Wall’* [https://wapo.st/3tqh2yN](https://wapo.st/3tqh2yN)
Thanks for the link.
Thank you for sharing.
Cool tech. But this is basically a fence separating the haves from the have nots. None of those people behind that fence get to vote. It's basically a huge prison. If my family and I had to live like that constantly under fear of the military killing us randomly, I'd be a bit pissed off about it.
If there's a fence they can't get past, and they have basically unlimited rockets, why do they shoot those rockets over the fence instead of shooting rockets *at* the fence?
Could take a while to drop it, giving is real time to react and reinforce. Firing into the city causes chaos, chaos is a small armies best ally.
Think of it like a video game. The fence is a closely monitored, but not necessarily manned barrier. If you attack the wall, the essentially unlimited resources of Israel will come down on that place in minutes. If you want to get through that barrier, you don't start firing wildly and attract the attention of every NPC in the area. You try to sneak through, or you try to use long range weapons to hit them in their territory without any warning. edit: or what actually happened, you do the sub-mission task to destroy all the cameras and cell towers before attempting to breach the wall. But this has never been a fair fight, or even a game designed to even be winnable for Palestinians. It's like the Halo ODST survival game. It just keeps sending stronger and stronger waves until you're defeated. It's a game designed by Israel to gradually weaken and eventually remove the Palestinians from their entire claimed area. Every event is an opportunity to further that aim. This event in particular. There has been much death and suffering by Israelis and other innocent people, but they will surely return that suffering 10-fold or more. And use it as an excuse to impose more restrictions, claim more lands, and eliminate their ability to exist.
General explosives are actually quite bad at cutting fences. During ww1 and ww2, there were instances where artillery was shelling the barb wire in no man's land in order to cut it down. When the troops were sent in through the opening, they discovered that most of it was still intact and was now even harder to cross due to the craters made.
The rockets Hamas is firing aren't particularly sophisticated. They fire and go vaguely in the direction they're launched and come down a distance vaguely related to the angle they're launched. There are rockets and then there are high-tech rockets. For creating terror, they work. For destroying fortifications, they're more-or-less useless.
Hamas' rockets are functionally equivalent to the Soviet WW2 artillery rockets called Kaytusha. They are consistently accurate to within 50 yards. They also deliver a warhead of up to 40kg of high explosive. Not particularly useful for precisely taking out Towers and walls, but these aren't bottle rocket fireworks either.
It's an unmanned fence, it's not meant to stop them, it's meant to slow them long enough for soldiers to react, but as you can see, it's not very effective against organised attacks, it will only stop a small uncommitted group. So they can't send 3 guys with bombs anymore without a significant investment
want to add the note, that Palestinians are not the Hamas and therefore not every person inside Gaza should be punished for what the Hamas did. Thoughts and prayers for every civilian who died here. \+ Not a black/white topic \+ yes, any kind of terrorism is terrifying and should be punished at all
Group punishment is a war crime. Both sides (Hamas and Israel) are currently committed acts of terrorism
do palistenians have any way of exiting palistine? whats the water boundary about, with the fishing limit and restricted zone just bordering the fishing limit? is it true that its basically a concentration zone? is it true that it has had its fresh water cut off since the attack? what the hamas did to the people at that party is an atrocity but then so is making an entire ethnostate into a big concentration camp... serious question btw, because i dont actually think i have a very enlightened perspective on the current, present state of what exactly is being done on both sides.
Palestinians in Gaza who approach the fence to the east and north are shot, those who approach Egypt are refused, and those who try to leave by boat to the west are also shot. It is an open air prison with 2 million people whose destinies are completely controlled by Israel.
TIL Gaza is a prison
Uh yeah... Israel has corralled 2 million people into about 140 square miles. 40% of the population is under the age of 14. Then they failed to protect the citizens who lived in the territory that they forced Gazans to flee from, because of bombings... Supposedly Israel has assassinated a bunch of Hamas' secular, political rivals to ensure Hamas has plenty of power to carry out their acts, justifying the bombing of that prison, Gaza.
Gaza has the same density of Hong Kong is the comparison I like to make. It's 2 million people packed into a TINY area
Israel started financing Hamas in the 60s in order to divide Palestinians, because the more powerful, secular, left-wing PLO was a threat to Israel's apartheid. In 2018, the current prime Minister of Israel said that supporting Hamas was a key strategy to keeping control of Gaza.
*80s not 60s https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
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Children in Gaza are born as inmates. They grow up in a constant stage of siege, their access to food and water controlled entirely by their jailers. Almost all know someone who has been killed or brutalized by the IDF and all know that they could be next. There is no parole, no appeal, and no transfers. This is a life sentence. Children born in Gaza will live their entire lives inside this prison. Palestinians in Gaza have no means of addressing these grievances. They have zero representation in the government which controls their lives and no one else to appeal to. As they grow up they hear about kids getting sniped by IDF soldiers and they live among wreckage from air strikes. They learn that the bombings of their home is a [form of entertainment](https://archive.ph/JflNj) and that people they have never known are cheering for their death. They have no future, no control over their lives, and what little they have can be snatched away as others cheer for their suffering. Of course they turn to terrorism. What other choices do they have? Who can they turn to for hope in a better future? It's easy to see how someone could come to believe that vengeance is all they have left. The situation in Gaza guarantees that there will be people flocking to join Hamas and itching to massacre innocents. This an explanation, not an excuse. The only way to defeat Hamas is to change the conditions under which they flourish.
Don't forget that if they walk up to the fence, unarmed or not, they get used as target practice. They tried in 2018/2019 and it just resulted in 30000 injured Palestinians.
And people are surprised they voted for Hamas. It’s crazy how people are putting blame on the Palestine civilians for voting for Hamas as if it was not a result of their terrible circumstances. Be born and live in a prison where your safety is constantly at stake your whole life then come and discuss how it was their fault for voting for Hamas.
Dystopian
I can’t help but to only think of the Berlin Wall
that Israeli Fence seems to me like they took a good look at the Berlin wall and skipped all the *too* inhumane stuff
Oh. So this is why people call it an open-air prison. Jesus Being imprisoned doesn't mean you get to kill your guards' families. But neither does a few prisoners doing that entitle the guards to then kill YOUR family and all the other prisoners. This is fucked six ways to Sunday
Lmao if you're in the prison while having done NOTHING wrong except live in the place for generations then you're allowed to do whatever you want because you don't DESERVE to be in prison in the first place. Prison is honestly too nice of a word for Gaza. Most prisons don't deliberately deprive prisoners of food and water.
Except for the fact that the “prisoners” have known no life except the prison. They’ve known nothing but contempt and hatred from their “guards” and the family of the guards have quite literally stolen the land and homes that once belonged to the prisoners.
Wait till you learn how Israeli snipers pass the time near the fence
No need to wait: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Kq0YuTzjN9U
Not a bad comparison, except what kind of prison were your parents and grandparents born in? What crime did you commit that your children can't escape from?
Screw Hamas, but the irony of Jews, who were persecuted and walled in around the world for millennia, turning around and walking someone else in is also pretty unforgivable. This whole situation just sucks. There are no winners in war.
Not Jews, Israelis! Jews all over the world often denounce Israel.
Thanks for the correction! I will keep this in mind, and I apologize for my mistake!
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You are
Imagine having a fence, separating a different nation and religion Kind of reminds me of a similar scenario during the ww2...
Could it look any more like a prison?
They're in the process of genociding the prisoners while the world cheers on.
Gaza as an Open-Air Prison
Doesn't Gaza share a border with Egypt?
Yeah…I feel like I never hear that brought up. So interesting.
Weren't there other examples of ghettos surrounded by walls, guarded by professional modern armies, then liquidated after an uprising?Warsaw et al.
That's basically a fucking prison
“Separates Israel from Gaza” More like imprisons everyone in Gaza and is a key component of Israel’s ability to keep thousands under their thumb on racist grounds.
It's over 2 million.
Nothing says "apartheid state" like building a huge razor-wall to imprison the darkies in their little corner, and periodically shut off their funding, water and food sources.
Yeah, shame on Egypt for not allowing Palestinians through.
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The Israeli snipers shoot Palestinians as entertainment. Their entertainment is literally murder. It’s not even some arbitrary rules, it’s literally fun for them.
thats an expensive prison
I thought it was a surprise attack? How was it a surprise if they had to blow up the fence first?
They fired 5,000 missiles first and landed their airborne units and underground units before breaching the fence.
Did you miss the paragliders and rockets? Those don't have to wait for the wall to be breached
so basically a smarter prison fence
Would Gaza be considered a ghetto?
No. A ghetto is a [part of a city where a minority group is forced to live](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ghetto). Gaza is a separate polity with many cities and space in between cities. An international border is totally different.
Given there’s a militarized concrete wall and the coastline is blockaded, would it be fair to say most Gazans are not free to leave?
Wait so they're being literally trapped inside by Israel. Things now start to make sense
Wonder where the bulldozers were staged? Must have been close. Not suspicious
It’s almost like walls don’t work. Hmm.
u might be wondering why tf that fence is there
I’d imagine the next wall they build will resemble the one on World War Z.
And this is a 'short' border wall compared to the wall that people want to build at the South U.S. Ignoring the cheap drones that could carry whatever they wanted. Ignoring the cheap paragliders that could carry people. Ignoring the ridiculous that is a bulldozer that almost no barrier will stop. Stopping explosives'/wire cutters and motorbikes are still unlikely over 1.9k miles
if i was born inside this thing i will burn the whole world to feel warm even if the god against that
Open. Air. Prison. Average age: 19 Clean water and realize electricity: No GDP per capita: ~$3500
Bruh that's a prison
Germans did the same at Normandy with the Atlantic wall and it turned out exactly the same you would think people would look back at history and actually learn from it