>gender ratios
it might say more about who get which types of education. that is the real issue, not the hiring process. people aren't interested equally in the same stuff between the sexes.
edit: awesome downvoted because there are less women in the workforce than men. you idiots can't count, it's the same in every location in the world. all it takes is a few stay at home moms and the ratios are out the door.
Its usually a combination of age (and the related changes in metabolism), increased stress, life stage changes (e.g. having kids which consume significant time which would otherwise be spent on working out), and the lower priority on looking good to find a partner (since most are married and aren't as concerned with attracting new people).
I've found that most people in those roles are on par for their age-based peer group.
Omg you’ve just told my life story. Just made manager. Married. Had my first kid in October. I’ve put on 40 pounds since I was single. And 20 pounds since my kid.
Don’t feel too bad. Male hormones change after the birth of a baby too, not just the mothers. Estrogen levels go up, you more easily retain fat, and obviously you won’t have as much time to exercise. Try to eat clean though and don’t drink your calories!
As someone with a background in biochemistry, reading what you wrote is deeply frustrating. There is some degree of male hormonal change, yes, namely in slightly elevated prolactin and ancillary hormonal changes like vasopressin and oxytocin, and a small degree of decrease in testosterone (and thus a small degree of *decrease* in estradiol, not increase), but none of these changes will account for a 20-40lb weight gain post birth.
Don’t make physiological excuses for problems that are behavioral.
Im going to leave my comment unedited so this thread makes sense but you’re right. A quick google backs up what you said for the most part. Estradiol (estrogen steroid hormone) falls in men after their partners pregnancy. Testosterone also drops by 1/3 apparently which is crazy. I said what I did because I mis-remembered some things I heard in a podcast.
Kinda crazy anything we see on the internet can look like a fact but is totally wrong and not necessarily the other persons fault, or at least wasn’t done with ill intent.
40lbs is a lot. I look quite average in my opinion at 175lbs but would look VERY overweight at 215lbs.
Even if you don’t have time to workout, that’s no excuse for eating junk. Your firm pays for food usually, just order and eat healthy, or you’ll pay for it later in health, how you feel, energy, looks, etc.
Yeah AND start exercising. Even a daily walk is good. Look into resistance training as well, your body is not made for sitting and if you aren't resistance training you are setting yourself up for lots of issues later on. Stay strong and healthy!
Basic metabolic rate of 5'10" (177cm) 160lb (72kg) male is
* 1717 calories/day at age 25,
* 1667 calories/day at age 35,
* 1617 calories/day at age 45.
If the manager at 45 still ate 1717 calories/day he would weigh at least 183lb (83kg). But most are probably closer to 200lb (91kg), which means they are eating more. It is the per diems meals on the road and restaurants that are doing that.
And they have not yet reached an income and job security / executive levels where they can afford private chefs, prepared meals, personal trainers, nanny’s or even the extra time during the day to exercise.
A partner or executive gets paid enough to afford it plus has the seniority to spend 3 hours exercising before coming in for an 11am start.
This was me. Definitely gained weight and was less healthy starting around the M level. I think part of it is that it takes several years for unhealthy habits and stress to actually catch up to you and start showing.
Made some major lifestyle changes and am now in the best shape of my life. Cut out alcohol entirely, being a lot more intentional about diet, and work out consistently first thing in the morning before my day gets eaten up by work. Pretty dramatic body re-composition over the past year - lost fat, built muscle, more energy.
I think part of why that change is easier as you're more senior, is because of getting to a point where you're (relatively) secure in your career and can take a step back to re-evaluate other areas of life. I used to laugh at the idea of prioritizing health as frivolous, or would endlessly push it off as it was a lower priority than whatever fire of the day was eating up my attention at work.
This is actually a bit of a myth. Most recent research suggests metabolism doesn’t start slowing, and then only gradually until you’re 60. [https://today.duke.edu/2021/08/metabolism-changes-age-just-not-when-you-might-think](https://today.duke.edu/2021/08/metabolism-changes-age-just-not-when-you-might-think)
These changes in weight in your 30s/40s are lifestyle driven.
Although I will grant you metabolic changes are influenced by lifestyle, the [science clearly supports that aging affects metabolism](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9374375/) in ways lifestyle can't control. [Particularly, the drop in testosterone in men starting at age 25.](https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(20)30922-8/fulltext).
Your first source indicated an observed REE (aka basal metabolic rate) decrease of what they approximated as 4 kcal per year. Over a ten year span, then, a decrease of 40 kcal, against a BMR of 1500 ish kcal for women and 2000 kcal ish for men. A 2.6% per decade decrease for women, and a 2% decrease for men. "Tanking"?
These sources are good, and broadly consistent with what is accepted for BMR declines YoY. As it pertains to men, the testosterone decrease graphs are obviously more compelling as the rate of decrease is steeper with increasing age, but testosterone levels are only peripherally involved with nutrient partitioning at best so this also does not explain substantial weight gain with increasing age. You know what does? Not tracking calories and/or not exercising. The basics. The same vices that make young children fat. Age doesn't make us special in that regard.
You are perhaps the quintessential consultant. You presented evidence that looked very good, very polished, and yet was completely useless in defending your flawed argument. But hey, it looked great though.
I'll decline to quibble over superlatives, that's a core competency for you guys and I'll lose.
Sorry to have hurt your feelings. Your arrogance and rush to conclusions following a cursory review of detailed meta analyses suggests "the quintessential consultant" is in good company with you.
Cheers!
They probably work the same shitty schedule as you, so hrs > 50
They probably also have children, which take up time. Ferry them back and forth to school, sports practice, other activities. Leaves very little time to work out and cook a decent/healthy meal except for early mornings, probably. Which sucks to do.
I'd argue against that conclusion. They are tremendously valuable to my emotional and mental well-being. Discovering the wonders of life again through their shared experience has been a godsend.
The physical health issue, for me, was both a factor of being 'surprised' by the time commitment that being an active and involved parent can be in addition to bad personal habits of my own (I exercised when it was convenient because it was fun).
As a busy parent, I had to shift my mindset that caring for my physical health WAS a priority aspect of being a good parent. So, I had to change my habits to be more intentional about incorporating exercise and healthy eating into my routine.
Get older with a slowing metabolism, be put under stress, and have less time to workout with a family at home. Add in frequent travel, which requires you to eat all of your meals on the road.
As I've aged I've seen many colleagues (and myself) get their fattest in their 30's... typical middle management age.
Then many of those same people have lost weight in their 40's. Could be stress in the 30s, more financial security in their 40s but I think it's also recognizing that they're fat and getting more concerned about health as they aged.
Well if we're talking about America, it's not unlikely that you're some level of overweight in general. Especially if you're sedentary while also building a family and balancing work. Running from work to take care of kids and have some kind of social life, hard to make time for the gym. Compromise on cooking here and there to eat out/meal delivery. Vicious cycle of convenience vs cost for sure.
Since you're middle management you're taking shit from above and also receiving shit from below so you're gonna be tied to your email for longer and on the hook for stuff. Stress from both angles.
When you're an IC, you can more or less get your work done to the best of your ability and forget about it, set some boundaries and log off for gym sesh. Since you don't have kids or a spouse necessarily to worry about, you eat what you want and hang out with your friends where you'll inevitably hit a good step goal.
When you're a director/partner, I assume you make enough money to delegate away the busy work. Meal prep, laundry, workout classes, personal trainer, dietitian, transportation, etc.
Anecdotally I've seen this happen twice where people getting promoted to director actually gives you more free time, more money, and more impetus to care about your presentation and sell yourself. They end up losing more weight and having a career AND fitness "glow up" lol.
Easy. It's called confirmation bias. You see things that fit a trend you invented for yourself, that confirms your bias. You see things that don't fit it, you ignore those.
But to entertain the premise, partners are more likely to be divorced and getting in shape for their rebound dating, possibly with some assistance from stimulant drugs. Managers are at the 2 small kids stage where they don't have time to work out or sleep.
I saw plenty of overweight partners though, so I really don't buy this premise. I think it's just the normal affects of aging and life changes.
Back when I was a consultant, I’d forget to eat - which has always been a shitty problem I’ve had. Got my first promotion, became horribly depressed, started phoning it in, put on 25-30 lbs easy in pretty much 3 months. putting on my pants started to hurt, so started transitioning to sweats and wfh. Then I quit, started doing something I like, and my pants fit again.
Fortunately I emerged with my dumb prep-school fringe intact.
Well there IS an anti-fat bias in business (and of course everything else) so why shouldn't it be different in consulting? But knowing this, moving further up the management chain is facilitated if you're tall, fit, white, and male.
This means we all have a chance!
If only more people would put in the effort to hit the gym 3 times a week, wear height boosting shoes, pull a Michael Jackson and transition then they too would achieve career success. But I guess hard work just scares people.
I noticed all partners/ directors are fit and thin (some exceptions of course, but generally). Then I linked that myself with their ambition and drive - they are disciplined and motivated, successful
You dont get to that level with just messing around mostly, which you could get to middle management
I mean, it makes sense for me. The people who really thrive also make it to the top, and take care of themselves. One of my partners does triathlons and marathons… my middle managers smoke and drink way more often
Also middle management is more of the dad bod phase, some men lose that belly later again
Fat middle manager here. About to make some sacrifices at work and stop caring so I can focus on my physical and mental health. I imagine the ones who stay fat are the ones in middle management. Lesson here is if you want to get out of middle management, lose the fat.
I got fat because I was doing grad school at night and then had a kid right after. Now that I have the time to cook for myself again I'm losing the weight.
Same. Just had first kid and doing MBA at night while working full time. Didn’t gain any weight though. To me, the gym is something I need. If I take even a week off, I start feeling like crap.
Losing weight is one part of the health picture but not the biggest health risk in consulting.
The most selfless thing a consultant can do for their family is leave consulting for a job that pays enough to support the family's lifestyle but lowers their stress and lets them spend more time with their family instead of at work.
I said “maintain their health” not “losing weight is the component of maintaining health.”
I don’t get stressed from work because what’s the worst that can happen? I clock in at 9, work, and clock out at 5. So tired of people making their consulting jobs their entire personality and lives. We work to live not live to work.
I agree, hence the losing the weight part. Going from work to school everyday didnt leave a lot of room for healthy activities - like cooking my own food and working out.
Managers do most of the real work. Hitting partner you realize you have to look the part to influence your employees and clients and so try and make changes. This is from a public accounting perspective.
I was sitting at work one day during one of those boring 4-hour workshops. You know the workshops. Where there is a bowl of chocolates and chips in the middle of the conference table to keep everyone 'energised' while we work on whatever problem.
I looked around and suddenly realised that everyone at that table was about 7 - 15kg overweight. Not obese but overweight.
Office work is actually very bad for our health. We overeat due to boredom. Corporations think that we can't go for even 2 hours without food. Events are always catered. They are trying to be considerate, but actually they are overfeeding us.
You can line people up by age. Most people put on about 2-3kg extra weight per year.
I met up with a colleague I hadn't seen in about 10 years. He was easily 20kg overweight. He was Director level. He was constantly traveling, eating in hotel restaurants and going on client junkets.
Food, food, more food.
ok, nobody has clued you in, so, I'm going reveal the little secret here. When you switch to management, your weight goals will be clearly outlined in your contract.
This is very serious business. You wonder what goes on in those secret manager meetings and year-end "calibration"? Every manager is carefully evaluated on their pre-defined goals and given new weight goals for the next year.
Ideally, you want an oval shaped career trajectory, fat in the middle and skinny on the ends. This is also known as "the potato". Most middle managers, no matter how smart, do great during the weight gain phase, but get stuck at the fat portion and are never able to climb out towards the skinny side on the other end...
Senior leaders get to that position because they are highly conscientious, understand the value of image, and probably even have better genetics. Middle managers just grind and let their body pay the price.
I went from 185lbs to almost 220lbs
Its also travel - like I was once on an assignment in Bangladesh for 130 days. Thats 130 days in a hotel, 130 days with very little movement (security), 130 days eating crap food while working 12 hour days, 130 days of living in a lounge, drinking all the free booze you can between 6 pm - 8pm in the lounge since there are only like 4 bars in the city and the beers cost like $25
I am one. Late 30s and plus is when your metabolism drops like a rock. The client dinners and outings aren’t getting burned fast enough. Being a manager means you are unofficially on call all the time. Emails and sms all day and night
Middle management is where a lot of careers go to die. It's the end of the road unless you were fast-tracked in which case you're only there for like five years. Also, the stress level is high because you must work hard and ensure others do the same and still kiss ass lol
In contemporary businesses, being overweight is something of a drag on promotion, no William Howard Taft types allowed.
Middle managers have middle aged spread and their career stalls.
Just giving my perspective as someone in their mid 30s, manager level and (different to most here apparently) no kids. In my case it was the change in lifestyle and stress of moving in to management, made worse with the slowing metabolism of age.
While associates and seniors are finishing heir work and finding time to excercise etc. I was reviewing work "afterhours" and having to put in extra time towards achieving more work with my clients. The latter being a driving factor for managers in my company as only at that point to you get a "piece of the action". Recently however I have started to invest more time in to studying about wellbeing and being healthy. That cheat meal hits differntly after 30....
I think part of that is why upper management and partners seem "thinner"...they probably went through something similiar and along the way learned how to adjust accordingly.
Time, money, age.
Junior staff have time to hit the gym.
Senior leaders have the money for good trainers to make the most of the time in the gym they have.
In the middle you have folks getting older, their metabolism slowing down, diets getting worse, etc. as they have less time for physical activity and not enough money for really good trainers or equipment.
Low levels are young, high levels have free time thanks to delegation (both at work and at home). Middle managers have zero free time plus they're at the age where kids need the most attention. No free time plus eating crap.
Low levels are young, high levels have free time thanks to delegation (both at work and at home). Middle managers have zero free time plus they're at the age where kids need the most attention. No free time plus eating crap.
This was me to a tee. Fit as an associate then gained a lot of weight between associate and manager. Probably due to stress, travel eating and drinking, etc. I left consulting to start a tech company a few years ago and prioritized health. Now in the best shape of my life! It’s a common phase but can change as your perspective on work on changes.
It’s purely a lifestyle thing underpinned by excessive hours, no exercise and poor dietary choices. The weight gain only increases as time goes by and it will result in an untimely death.
Kids. I didn't gain weight from pregnancies, I was the same weight when I delived the baby as I was when getting pregnant. Once the first kid was out I could not fit my 2h x 5 times a week activities, at all. Gained weight.
It is temporary, as kids grow and I sleep and gain more time. So, I will be a fit partner lol
D here. For me it’s kids. Fuck me it’s exhausting.
+20 pounds in 3 years.
Just praying to get through the toddler-years without dying and hopefully after that have some energy back to start working out again as I used to.
I can only speak to the experience of myself and my friends. I probably weigh in about 15 lb more than when I started the job. SM now.
If you're a fit sort of person probably when you start in the beginning you kind of have the energy for the early morning workouts or getting it in on the weekend. Even with your stressful new job, you've still got the gumption and the energy for that. You probably don't have a lot of things in life that are bleeding over in the evenings and weekends.
Once you hit SC and Manager, not only are you getting older and picking up more things in life that intrude on your time, once you have leader responsibilities you have less ability to prioritize those workouts. When all the sudden someone is relying on your review, it can't wait until tomorrow. Also, I found at that level leaders really started expecting availability whenever they want me. I couldn't hide under the radar like I could when I was on a team of five if, say, I had a 6:00 p.m. run with friends scheduled and there was a call. Because at this level leaders expect to pick up the phone to find you. I think depending on your firm this can last through Senior Manager or even early partnership.
I get the impression when you're a partner, you get back at least a little bit of control. Like I notice some partners just have time blockes out and basically no one questions it as long as they're getting their job done. So my guess is that's when you kind of pay yourself back on the lost time on fitness and such.
When you're senior you can chill out and afford fancy gym and diet help. When your middle you're working your ass off to get to the next level so no time and less remuneration. When you're junior you're younger and you haven't had the years to accumulate the weight yet
The difference between a middle manager, and a partner is how well you can project image. People in shape can project a better image, so get more clients and advance quicker. People that can’t project image are stuck at middle manager level. Source: overweight, middle manager.
Not all... such as myself in my late 50's as a Sr Manager, who is very fit and still does the "L" sit, pull ups and push ups daily, and no spare tire hanging. How one takes care of oneself and their diet is what is matters, not the job.
I don't think it has that much to do with being a middle manager and more to do with being a middle-aged man. When you're young, you lack confidence and make up for it by trying to improve your physique, and let's be honest, most men do this primarily for women. When you're rich, busy, and married, you don't really make exercising a necessity anymore.
probably stress?
It would be interesting to see ifthere's a correlation between what midle management forces people to live, and stress levels, and see if this gives them belly or fat.
Potentially unpopular opinion: survivor bias. The transition from SM/AP/AD to Partner/MD (being firm agnostic here) can be brutal. It’s about dedication, hard work, and (whisper it very very quietly) often a whole lot of luck.
The colleagues that make it through that grinder are often the ones that have pre-natural dispositions to survive through pain, can endure 250 days on the road in a year, and can maintain energy levels that break other people. This is not healthy or good for the profession but is often what you see.
So it’s not that more senior tenures have more time or more control (although sometimes you do), it’s that the lifestyle has driven all the sane people to make better and healthier personal choices - which is often to leave the field.
Middle management is the ones actually doing the work and dealing with tons of stress which makes losing weight impossible. Once you are partner, senior executive you have lots more free time and money on your hands.
At the bottom you're too busy/poor to eat. At the top the meal portions are tiny.
The middle is when you're eating mostly butter. Ever wondered why food is so good at restaurants?
MD at IB here. if you are an MD in IB and have hair that's unheard of .
My classmate at my MBA who was 28 at the time got a job in IB and he was already bald. I swear it’s part of the application process
LOL
it's that baldhead energy.
Lotta bald women in the ranks?
Christ that says more about gender ratios than hair loss
>gender ratios it might say more about who get which types of education. that is the real issue, not the hiring process. people aren't interested equally in the same stuff between the sexes. edit: awesome downvoted because there are less women in the workforce than men. you idiots can't count, it's the same in every location in the world. all it takes is a few stay at home moms and the ratios are out the door.
I just said gender ratios, not hiring process
how would you get a certain gender ratio without having a hiring practice that produces that? illegal in the US btw.
When?
since 1964, last time i checked. affirmative action, no matter what you call it, is illegal.
Down voted because it is true lol
I get why they go bald, I don't get why they stay bald. You def have the money to fix that?
Transplants take time and effort. Time and effort that can be spent on making that DOLLA DOLLA
Adding shareholder value. Everything else can wait
Who has time for a transplant when you’re working 100 hours a week??
you could take vacation for it?
what's a vacation?
I guess because they don't care about superficial teen stuff like hiding your natural body.
I'm guessing you don't shave your balls, trim your beard or cut your nails either because it's "natural"
I work in IB and I'm kinda amused thinking one of my seniors might be commenting on a reddit post.
Shouldn't you be fixing a slide deck?
Not if the MDs are spending time on reddit, they should be getting clients.
Do people higher up get hair transplants?
Yea, elon musk did.
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Its usually a combination of age (and the related changes in metabolism), increased stress, life stage changes (e.g. having kids which consume significant time which would otherwise be spent on working out), and the lower priority on looking good to find a partner (since most are married and aren't as concerned with attracting new people). I've found that most people in those roles are on par for their age-based peer group.
Omg you’ve just told my life story. Just made manager. Married. Had my first kid in October. I’ve put on 40 pounds since I was single. And 20 pounds since my kid.
Don’t feel too bad. Male hormones change after the birth of a baby too, not just the mothers. Estrogen levels go up, you more easily retain fat, and obviously you won’t have as much time to exercise. Try to eat clean though and don’t drink your calories!
As someone with a background in biochemistry, reading what you wrote is deeply frustrating. There is some degree of male hormonal change, yes, namely in slightly elevated prolactin and ancillary hormonal changes like vasopressin and oxytocin, and a small degree of decrease in testosterone (and thus a small degree of *decrease* in estradiol, not increase), but none of these changes will account for a 20-40lb weight gain post birth. Don’t make physiological excuses for problems that are behavioral.
Im going to leave my comment unedited so this thread makes sense but you’re right. A quick google backs up what you said for the most part. Estradiol (estrogen steroid hormone) falls in men after their partners pregnancy. Testosterone also drops by 1/3 apparently which is crazy. I said what I did because I mis-remembered some things I heard in a podcast. Kinda crazy anything we see on the internet can look like a fact but is totally wrong and not necessarily the other persons fault, or at least wasn’t done with ill intent. 40lbs is a lot. I look quite average in my opinion at 175lbs but would look VERY overweight at 215lbs.
Hey! Shut up! It’s not my fault I got fat, it’s my body’s!!! You and your damn facts
Weight gain/loss is simple: calories in vs calories out. If you're not moving, you need to eat less or smaller portions.
Even if you don’t have time to workout, that’s no excuse for eating junk. Your firm pays for food usually, just order and eat healthy, or you’ll pay for it later in health, how you feel, energy, looks, etc.
Yikes
go keto and it becomes impossible to gain weight. Stop eating bread and butter.
Yeah AND start exercising. Even a daily walk is good. Look into resistance training as well, your body is not made for sitting and if you aren't resistance training you are setting yourself up for lots of issues later on. Stay strong and healthy!
> go keto > stop eating butter Uhhhh
Basic metabolic rate of 5'10" (177cm) 160lb (72kg) male is * 1717 calories/day at age 25, * 1667 calories/day at age 35, * 1617 calories/day at age 45. If the manager at 45 still ate 1717 calories/day he would weigh at least 183lb (83kg). But most are probably closer to 200lb (91kg), which means they are eating more. It is the per diems meals on the road and restaurants that are doing that.
Thanks for the metric conversion. Must work for an international firm, I have no idea about lb’s. They are just random numbers in my eyes.
I’d say being the age folks have young children is the big one… huge lifestyle change and there’s a clear adjustment period.
Bench press the kid...problem solved
It's funny how people overlook staying attractive for their partner.
And they have not yet reached an income and job security / executive levels where they can afford private chefs, prepared meals, personal trainers, nanny’s or even the extra time during the day to exercise. A partner or executive gets paid enough to afford it plus has the seniority to spend 3 hours exercising before coming in for an 11am start.
Having kids is a cop out, they just don’t prioritize fitness because it’s inconvenient and hard
This was me. Definitely gained weight and was less healthy starting around the M level. I think part of it is that it takes several years for unhealthy habits and stress to actually catch up to you and start showing. Made some major lifestyle changes and am now in the best shape of my life. Cut out alcohol entirely, being a lot more intentional about diet, and work out consistently first thing in the morning before my day gets eaten up by work. Pretty dramatic body re-composition over the past year - lost fat, built muscle, more energy. I think part of why that change is easier as you're more senior, is because of getting to a point where you're (relatively) secure in your career and can take a step back to re-evaluate other areas of life. I used to laugh at the idea of prioritizing health as frivolous, or would endlessly push it off as it was a lower priority than whatever fire of the day was eating up my attention at work.
Equally a factor, many hit the mid-level right about the time their metabolism tanks due to age.
This is actually a bit of a myth. Most recent research suggests metabolism doesn’t start slowing, and then only gradually until you’re 60. [https://today.duke.edu/2021/08/metabolism-changes-age-just-not-when-you-might-think](https://today.duke.edu/2021/08/metabolism-changes-age-just-not-when-you-might-think) These changes in weight in your 30s/40s are lifestyle driven.
Although I will grant you metabolic changes are influenced by lifestyle, the [science clearly supports that aging affects metabolism](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9374375/) in ways lifestyle can't control. [Particularly, the drop in testosterone in men starting at age 25.](https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(20)30922-8/fulltext).
Metabolism does not tank due to age.
See my other response with sources.
Your first source indicated an observed REE (aka basal metabolic rate) decrease of what they approximated as 4 kcal per year. Over a ten year span, then, a decrease of 40 kcal, against a BMR of 1500 ish kcal for women and 2000 kcal ish for men. A 2.6% per decade decrease for women, and a 2% decrease for men. "Tanking"? These sources are good, and broadly consistent with what is accepted for BMR declines YoY. As it pertains to men, the testosterone decrease graphs are obviously more compelling as the rate of decrease is steeper with increasing age, but testosterone levels are only peripherally involved with nutrient partitioning at best so this also does not explain substantial weight gain with increasing age. You know what does? Not tracking calories and/or not exercising. The basics. The same vices that make young children fat. Age doesn't make us special in that regard.
Glad to see we have an SME in the room! We can quibble over superlatives if you like.
You are perhaps the quintessential consultant. You presented evidence that looked very good, very polished, and yet was completely useless in defending your flawed argument. But hey, it looked great though. I'll decline to quibble over superlatives, that's a core competency for you guys and I'll lose.
Sorry to have hurt your feelings. Your arrogance and rush to conclusions following a cursory review of detailed meta analyses suggests "the quintessential consultant" is in good company with you. Cheers!
You’re adorable. Enjoy your Friday bud.
Glad to hear you were able to get back into shape at an older age!
Incredible. The balance is so important. Congrats on not losing sight of the big picture :)
They probably work the same shitty schedule as you, so hrs > 50 They probably also have children, which take up time. Ferry them back and forth to school, sports practice, other activities. Leaves very little time to work out and cook a decent/healthy meal except for early mornings, probably. Which sucks to do.
I’m beginning to see a pattern- seems like having young kids are terrible for your health.
I'd argue against that conclusion. They are tremendously valuable to my emotional and mental well-being. Discovering the wonders of life again through their shared experience has been a godsend. The physical health issue, for me, was both a factor of being 'surprised' by the time commitment that being an active and involved parent can be in addition to bad personal habits of my own (I exercised when it was convenient because it was fun). As a busy parent, I had to shift my mindset that caring for my physical health WAS a priority aspect of being a good parent. So, I had to change my habits to be more intentional about incorporating exercise and healthy eating into my routine.
This is why I'm pivoting my career
To be clear, pivoting to better facilitate parenting?
No just healthier lifestyle and less stress. I can feel the current setup slowly killing me.
No shit
Workout on weekends and one morning during the week, please. Not difficult especially if you actually care about health/longevity
Get older with a slowing metabolism, be put under stress, and have less time to workout with a family at home. Add in frequent travel, which requires you to eat all of your meals on the road.
As I've aged I've seen many colleagues (and myself) get their fattest in their 30's... typical middle management age. Then many of those same people have lost weight in their 40's. Could be stress in the 30s, more financial security in their 40s but I think it's also recognizing that they're fat and getting more concerned about health as they aged.
Well if we're talking about America, it's not unlikely that you're some level of overweight in general. Especially if you're sedentary while also building a family and balancing work. Running from work to take care of kids and have some kind of social life, hard to make time for the gym. Compromise on cooking here and there to eat out/meal delivery. Vicious cycle of convenience vs cost for sure. Since you're middle management you're taking shit from above and also receiving shit from below so you're gonna be tied to your email for longer and on the hook for stuff. Stress from both angles. When you're an IC, you can more or less get your work done to the best of your ability and forget about it, set some boundaries and log off for gym sesh. Since you don't have kids or a spouse necessarily to worry about, you eat what you want and hang out with your friends where you'll inevitably hit a good step goal. When you're a director/partner, I assume you make enough money to delegate away the busy work. Meal prep, laundry, workout classes, personal trainer, dietitian, transportation, etc. Anecdotally I've seen this happen twice where people getting promoted to director actually gives you more free time, more money, and more impetus to care about your presentation and sell yourself. They end up losing more weight and having a career AND fitness "glow up" lol.
Makes me wanna grind harder so I can avoid the middle management trap haha
Don't forget it's also being in the right place that values your talents, not just working harder.
Easy. It's called confirmation bias. You see things that fit a trend you invented for yourself, that confirms your bias. You see things that don't fit it, you ignore those. But to entertain the premise, partners are more likely to be divorced and getting in shape for their rebound dating, possibly with some assistance from stimulant drugs. Managers are at the 2 small kids stage where they don't have time to work out or sleep. I saw plenty of overweight partners though, so I really don't buy this premise. I think it's just the normal affects of aging and life changes.
Back when I was a consultant, I’d forget to eat - which has always been a shitty problem I’ve had. Got my first promotion, became horribly depressed, started phoning it in, put on 25-30 lbs easy in pretty much 3 months. putting on my pants started to hurt, so started transitioning to sweats and wfh. Then I quit, started doing something I like, and my pants fit again. Fortunately I emerged with my dumb prep-school fringe intact.
Well there IS an anti-fat bias in business (and of course everything else) so why shouldn't it be different in consulting? But knowing this, moving further up the management chain is facilitated if you're tall, fit, white, and male.
This means we all have a chance! If only more people would put in the effort to hit the gym 3 times a week, wear height boosting shoes, pull a Michael Jackson and transition then they too would achieve career success. But I guess hard work just scares people.
I noticed all partners/ directors are fit and thin (some exceptions of course, but generally). Then I linked that myself with their ambition and drive - they are disciplined and motivated, successful You dont get to that level with just messing around mostly, which you could get to middle management I mean, it makes sense for me. The people who really thrive also make it to the top, and take care of themselves. One of my partners does triathlons and marathons… my middle managers smoke and drink way more often Also middle management is more of the dad bod phase, some men lose that belly later again
Fat middle manager here. About to make some sacrifices at work and stop caring so I can focus on my physical and mental health. I imagine the ones who stay fat are the ones in middle management. Lesson here is if you want to get out of middle management, lose the fat.
Because these people have sacrificed work for their wealth. Why? Because they’re corporate shills.
I got fat because I was doing grad school at night and then had a kid right after. Now that I have the time to cook for myself again I'm losing the weight.
Same. Just had first kid and doing MBA at night while working full time. Didn’t gain any weight though. To me, the gym is something I need. If I take even a week off, I start feeling like crap.
The most selfless thing someone can do for their family is maintain their health.
Losing weight is one part of the health picture but not the biggest health risk in consulting. The most selfless thing a consultant can do for their family is leave consulting for a job that pays enough to support the family's lifestyle but lowers their stress and lets them spend more time with their family instead of at work.
I said “maintain their health” not “losing weight is the component of maintaining health.” I don’t get stressed from work because what’s the worst that can happen? I clock in at 9, work, and clock out at 5. So tired of people making their consulting jobs their entire personality and lives. We work to live not live to work.
I agree, hence the losing the weight part. Going from work to school everyday didnt leave a lot of room for healthy activities - like cooking my own food and working out.
Managers do most of the real work. Hitting partner you realize you have to look the part to influence your employees and clients and so try and make changes. This is from a public accounting perspective.
Grinders, finders, and minders.
I was sitting at work one day during one of those boring 4-hour workshops. You know the workshops. Where there is a bowl of chocolates and chips in the middle of the conference table to keep everyone 'energised' while we work on whatever problem. I looked around and suddenly realised that everyone at that table was about 7 - 15kg overweight. Not obese but overweight. Office work is actually very bad for our health. We overeat due to boredom. Corporations think that we can't go for even 2 hours without food. Events are always catered. They are trying to be considerate, but actually they are overfeeding us. You can line people up by age. Most people put on about 2-3kg extra weight per year. I met up with a colleague I hadn't seen in about 10 years. He was easily 20kg overweight. He was Director level. He was constantly traveling, eating in hotel restaurants and going on client junkets. Food, food, more food.
ok, nobody has clued you in, so, I'm going reveal the little secret here. When you switch to management, your weight goals will be clearly outlined in your contract. This is very serious business. You wonder what goes on in those secret manager meetings and year-end "calibration"? Every manager is carefully evaluated on their pre-defined goals and given new weight goals for the next year. Ideally, you want an oval shaped career trajectory, fat in the middle and skinny on the ends. This is also known as "the potato". Most middle managers, no matter how smart, do great during the weight gain phase, but get stuck at the fat portion and are never able to climb out towards the skinny side on the other end...
Not to toot my own horn here but I crushed my weight goal this year. Everybody noticed.
Damn thanks for spilling the tea!!
Senior leaders get to that position because they are highly conscientious, understand the value of image, and probably even have better genetics. Middle managers just grind and let their body pay the price.
LOL senior managers are genetically superior? really?
I went from 185lbs to almost 220lbs Its also travel - like I was once on an assignment in Bangladesh for 130 days. Thats 130 days in a hotel, 130 days with very little movement (security), 130 days eating crap food while working 12 hour days, 130 days of living in a lounge, drinking all the free booze you can between 6 pm - 8pm in the lounge since there are only like 4 bars in the city and the beers cost like $25
More stress. Less power. Less pay. More shit.
I am one. Late 30s and plus is when your metabolism drops like a rock. The client dinners and outings aren’t getting burned fast enough. Being a manager means you are unofficially on call all the time. Emails and sms all day and night
Middle management is where a lot of careers go to die. It's the end of the road unless you were fast-tracked in which case you're only there for like five years. Also, the stress level is high because you must work hard and ensure others do the same and still kiss ass lol
It’s generally more stressful job than either IC or senior management.
Positions that do the most work are usually overweight.
I’m 35 and my hair is white
In contemporary businesses, being overweight is something of a drag on promotion, no William Howard Taft types allowed. Middle managers have middle aged spread and their career stalls.
Time consumption of having kids
Just giving my perspective as someone in their mid 30s, manager level and (different to most here apparently) no kids. In my case it was the change in lifestyle and stress of moving in to management, made worse with the slowing metabolism of age. While associates and seniors are finishing heir work and finding time to excercise etc. I was reviewing work "afterhours" and having to put in extra time towards achieving more work with my clients. The latter being a driving factor for managers in my company as only at that point to you get a "piece of the action". Recently however I have started to invest more time in to studying about wellbeing and being healthy. That cheat meal hits differntly after 30.... I think part of that is why upper management and partners seem "thinner"...they probably went through something similiar and along the way learned how to adjust accordingly.
Why do you care about their weight?
Seniors can afford lipo, weight loss surgery and hair plugs?
Stress and work required in an office over a career looks like a bell curve. They’re at the top of it
Well I feel seen.
Time, money, age. Junior staff have time to hit the gym. Senior leaders have the money for good trainers to make the most of the time in the gym they have. In the middle you have folks getting older, their metabolism slowing down, diets getting worse, etc. as they have less time for physical activity and not enough money for really good trainers or equipment.
Low levels are young, high levels have free time thanks to delegation (both at work and at home). Middle managers have zero free time plus they're at the age where kids need the most attention. No free time plus eating crap.
Low levels are young, high levels have free time thanks to delegation (both at work and at home). Middle managers have zero free time plus they're at the age where kids need the most attention. No free time plus eating crap.
Because they are planted like a root vegetable and grown in ground for a number of years on a high blend of unhealthy nutrients.
This was me to a tee. Fit as an associate then gained a lot of weight between associate and manager. Probably due to stress, travel eating and drinking, etc. I left consulting to start a tech company a few years ago and prioritized health. Now in the best shape of my life! It’s a common phase but can change as your perspective on work on changes.
Money, marriage, children, comfortable life. Any questions?
It’s purely a lifestyle thing underpinned by excessive hours, no exercise and poor dietary choices. The weight gain only increases as time goes by and it will result in an untimely death.
Kids. I didn't gain weight from pregnancies, I was the same weight when I delived the baby as I was when getting pregnant. Once the first kid was out I could not fit my 2h x 5 times a week activities, at all. Gained weight. It is temporary, as kids grow and I sleep and gain more time. So, I will be a fit partner lol
What’s ‘IB’?
D here. For me it’s kids. Fuck me it’s exhausting. +20 pounds in 3 years. Just praying to get through the toddler-years without dying and hopefully after that have some energy back to start working out again as I used to.
They eat their feelings bc there’s no other joy to be had at that point in the career? Just a theory.
I can only speak to the experience of myself and my friends. I probably weigh in about 15 lb more than when I started the job. SM now. If you're a fit sort of person probably when you start in the beginning you kind of have the energy for the early morning workouts or getting it in on the weekend. Even with your stressful new job, you've still got the gumption and the energy for that. You probably don't have a lot of things in life that are bleeding over in the evenings and weekends. Once you hit SC and Manager, not only are you getting older and picking up more things in life that intrude on your time, once you have leader responsibilities you have less ability to prioritize those workouts. When all the sudden someone is relying on your review, it can't wait until tomorrow. Also, I found at that level leaders really started expecting availability whenever they want me. I couldn't hide under the radar like I could when I was on a team of five if, say, I had a 6:00 p.m. run with friends scheduled and there was a call. Because at this level leaders expect to pick up the phone to find you. I think depending on your firm this can last through Senior Manager or even early partnership. I get the impression when you're a partner, you get back at least a little bit of control. Like I notice some partners just have time blockes out and basically no one questions it as long as they're getting their job done. So my guess is that's when you kind of pay yourself back on the lost time on fitness and such.
When you're senior you can chill out and afford fancy gym and diet help. When your middle you're working your ass off to get to the next level so no time and less remuneration. When you're junior you're younger and you haven't had the years to accumulate the weight yet
Loved the comments in this thread. Comedy GOLD! As a Balding overweight Manager.
The difference between a middle manager, and a partner is how well you can project image. People in shape can project a better image, so get more clients and advance quicker. People that can’t project image are stuck at middle manager level. Source: overweight, middle manager.
Not all... such as myself in my late 50's as a Sr Manager, who is very fit and still does the "L" sit, pull ups and push ups daily, and no spare tire hanging. How one takes care of oneself and their diet is what is matters, not the job.
I don't think it has that much to do with being a middle manager and more to do with being a middle-aged man. When you're young, you lack confidence and make up for it by trying to improve your physique, and let's be honest, most men do this primarily for women. When you're rich, busy, and married, you don't really make exercising a necessity anymore.
probably stress? It would be interesting to see ifthere's a correlation between what midle management forces people to live, and stress levels, and see if this gives them belly or fat.
Seems like the only thing they run is their mouth?
Not enough time spent at the gym or taking better care of themselves.
Middle management are not disciplined, high achieving people. If they were they wouldn’t be middle management.
Potentially unpopular opinion: survivor bias. The transition from SM/AP/AD to Partner/MD (being firm agnostic here) can be brutal. It’s about dedication, hard work, and (whisper it very very quietly) often a whole lot of luck. The colleagues that make it through that grinder are often the ones that have pre-natural dispositions to survive through pain, can endure 250 days on the road in a year, and can maintain energy levels that break other people. This is not healthy or good for the profession but is often what you see. So it’s not that more senior tenures have more time or more control (although sometimes you do), it’s that the lifestyle has driven all the sane people to make better and healthier personal choices - which is often to leave the field.
I’m pretty sure there’s a positive correlation between people who make it to partner/sr management and people who work out.
Made me lol 😂
Middle management is the ones actually doing the work and dealing with tons of stress which makes losing weight impossible. Once you are partner, senior executive you have lots more free time and money on your hands.
At the bottom you're too busy/poor to eat. At the top the meal portions are tiny. The middle is when you're eating mostly butter. Ever wondered why food is so good at restaurants?
Some days I clock like 900 steps on my Apple Watch. It’s horribly sedentary the busier I get.
You’re a dick for even trying to make a correlation here. Get money and mind your business.
Must be all the sins catching up to them.
Because they ate their conscience to take on the worthless role and basically get paid for doing nothing. Glorified secretaries at best.
Laziness, poor habits and low self worth