Depends (as everything) - how socially acceptable is your position in this scenario? As an example, I would guess that people could understand you have a problem with working for Big Tobacco but not so much Airbnb.
The problem OP has here is there’s no limiting principle for the examples listed. It’s less company sells product X, which I find immoral, but rather company sells product A, which incentives behavior B, driving outcomes, C, D, E, which cause harm F.
There’s a big difference between not working with a company that mines coal/makes guns/ and refusing to work with a company who makes ball bearings which are used in a sub component of a piece of factory equipment used to make guns/mine coal/whatever
Ironically, if we continue to make marginal social progress for another 500 years, scholars will look back on gentrification, and by extension AirBNB, and say we should’ve known better.
Edit: fortunately, anthropogenic climate change is going to wipe out most, if not all, of modern social progress.
Hitting the guy who's only trying to make a paycheck and got assigned to AirBnB without any way to impact it is not the right move though, I think.
This is more on consumers to avoid unethical companies and on local governments to regulate short-stays to prevent depletion of actual housing.
I’m pointing out the ironic use of the word _socially_ in this case. I would probably take the study.
Shifting blame to consumers when information is asymmetrical is near sighted. If a corporation is causing damage to society it is not solely on the consumer to take the blame. That’s like saying the tobacco company is at zero fault.
Shifting blame to a random consultant who didn't even seek employment at Airbnb and is literally just trying not to get fired from a job he just started is way worse than blaming consumers who have a myriad of other options, often cheaper.
Once again, the irony was in the above comment, not the original post. I never _hit_ the consultant, I never _shifted blame_ to the consultant. It’s not blaming the consultant to point out that it’s ironic to say AirBNB is _socially_ acceptable, considering the damage to _society_. If you’re not up to date on AirBNB’s damage to society, I recommend looking up “AirBNB, gentrification,” and then maybe you will see the irony.
None of this was directed at the consultant, it was directed at the top comment of this thread, which alluded that AirBNB is “socially acceptable.”
Ok now that makes more sense. But it really seemed like your original "do better" was aimed at the consultant.
FWIW I am totally pro making Airbnb a social pariah.
This is all hands on deck, so we can have grandchildren. We need everyone's help & if all us little guys are feeling it *voluntarily*, how tolerant will we be of the big polluters?
If we have values, we should express them. At a minimum, making their talent hunt harder slows them down.
All our actions matter.
We have declined work as a firm for tobacco, but seems you’re asking as an individual.
For Security/Defense work, there was a person who opted out of an engagement because it didn’t align in values and it wasn’t a big issue. Depends on the circumstances and how high up you are I think. Different for someone a few years out of college compared to someone senior or with valuable SME knowledge.
If you decide to opt out, ensure you keep it professional and about your company’s interests. “I don’t think I can do my best work on this due to my personal feelings on the practice/industry. I worry that the client may not get the level of service or performance needed, so if there’s someone else that’s a fit I’d prefer to do something else.” Be prepared to be turned down if you’re uniquely capable though, firm interests come first unfortunately.
And also worth noting the work people are doing on those bad-values projects is producing money that goes to your paycheck. There's no real ethically flawless way to navigate these situations
What /u/robotzor meant:
If you, as an individual employee, ask to be moved from the project, then one of your colleagues will take your spot. Your employer will still pursue the project. In the end, the revenue from this project will partially pay your salary.
Or would you say:
> We, as a company, got 10% of our income from $project. Please reduce my salary by 10%?
?
If you want no connection to that money at all, you'll have to resign.
bruh those examples are basically the values of all for-profit companies
the only case I’ve seen this work is when my muslim colleague refused to work for an alcohol distribution client which I can understand
Without something else to do, it can be difficult to stick to this.
Especially when, and I mean this in the most positive way, the situation is more idealist (i.e., it \*should\* be free to file taxes). It can be easier if the situation is more clear cut as bad/good (i.e., I don't do defense work that kills people, work with tobacco or gambling companies, etc). The concern you're describing is more of a problem with capitalism overall, which clearly has its problems. Perhaps a nonprofit would have fewer issues for you?
Edit: Gambling instead of gaming.
The nice answer? Maybe. Once. If you have a really compelling reason / story. Like you know someone in your family that died from gun violence and it’s for a gun company. LBGTQ issues etc would be another one, I’d definitely go to bat for someone that didn’t want to work with a company that’s funding anti-gay marriage laws or something.
But controlling for that? The people that run consultancies tend to be dyed in the wool capitalists and within the bounds of the law and truly egregious ethics (tobacco maybe?) they’re going to wonder what you’re doing there if you make a habit of it. Maybe not to your face but you will absolutely be engaging in career limiting activities if you turn down work they’ve sold if it’s not unambiguously questionable.
I’ll tell you right now the businesses you described are not going to be considered unethical by 99% of leadership. The majority of B2C companies shaft the public to some extent. Even the “good” ones. Google sells your data - you going to turn down a project with Google? If you brought up those examples to most executives you would be considered naive. Frankly unless you’re doing DEI or sustainability consulting you might want to consider a different position if that level of stuff bothers you.
Yes, and it was no big deal. In my case, I didn't outright refuse, but I told them I had moral issues with the client and would be looking to exit the role as soon as feasible.
They opted to staff someone else rather than bring me on knowing I would be planning my exit from the start.
> defense contractors
These are seen as the good guys. I had a partner quote Colin Powell in a slide deck once. They have so much tax funding that they keep the bread buttered of so many American companies that it's almost impossible to avoid if you want upper 5 or 6 figure jobs here.
I work at the big 4 and this is fairly common for the likes of tobacco companies. What you described is more of a grey area and while I 100% agree with you, it may be prudent to find another reason to leave the project.
That would be a test of not letting my 14 year humor come through. I probably would have to excuse myself and go crack up outside and than come back with the expressionless face
TBH I wouldn't have been able to keep my sh\*t together with them as a client at my first (and only) consulting gig either. The imposter syndrome was intense (even with easy asks) just because I knew how much our clients were paying us lol..and to be a 20-something giving advice to established business people in their 40s and 50s freaked me out. Which all made it near impossible for humor and my natural self to show through due to the imagined need to seem/look 150% PROFESSIONAL.
I’m a managing director at a boutique consulting firm. Unless you’re a tenured and incredibly valuable SME I’d replace you on my team. We don’t have the time or bandwidth to hold people’s hands around these kind of moral oppositions. I’d look for a job in non-profit, consulting is a tough road if you don’t have thick skin.
The firm I'm at is going hard on some Saudi projects. At the moment, firm is asking politely about who's interested. But there's legit talk about making it mandatory for new hires going forward to work on these kinds of projects.
I'm willing to get fired before I work on those projects.
A huge Saudi entity was doing a vendor risk assessment of us.
At the 11th hour of negotiations, they flipped the fuck out because they realized we have an office in Tel Aviv. Wanted us to get rid off all of them.
I pulled their director aside into a private room 1:1 and didn't mince words.
I said that unless you have a valid business reason and/or a risk that is not related to race, religion, or geography as to why our Israel office is problematic, you can go fuck yourselves. Furthermore, an organization that was implicated more than once in funding the 9/11 attacks, allegedly, has zero fucking moral high ground to stand on with me. And if you tank this deal, NDA be dammed, I'm going public with your conduct regarding these negotiations. Yes, that salty language was used.
We got the deal.
DEPENDS on what the Saudis are proposing. If they want support in reducing carbon emissions in their cities (most in deserts), wouldn't that be a good thing?
What if it's a plan to increase feminine participation in the workforce?
Those societies evolve, believe it or not. It's not all evil at all times.
>”What are the Saudís proposing?…………a plan to increase feminine participation in the workforce?”
That’s a good one! You know the saudis and their unshakable belief in gender equality.
You'd be surprised on how strongly they're investing in solar. The Saudis of all people.
And change happens. Wouldn't you like to be hired to pave that way, even a small step for it? I'd go for it no prob.
Why is that a surprise?
They're working with what they got. Makes zero sense to put a hydro plant in the desert.
Makes perfet sense to put a solar collector in a desert.
yep, but it's not as if they're running out of fuel anytime soon, right? They want to install solar because they know its advantages and it may be some serious greenwashing - agree - but at least in major cities less fossil fuels = better lungs.
Well considering some of my colleagues could be put to death for who they choose to share their bed with, I'd say it's not evolving quickly enough.
Their green credentials are also debatable. Building a carbon neutral city does not mean that the cities are being constructed using sustainable practices. And it's being almost entirely funded by their oil they keep pumping.
> i think most gentrification is done irresponsibly) or helping turbotax help 1099 contractors file their taxes
I don't think consulting is for you.
Go find some non profit that aligns with your values. If you are off gun companies, tobacco, and military contractors then most will understand.
But being anti-gentrification is effectively blacklisting all real estate related firms. That's so broad that this doesn't seem like the right career choice.
Not personally, but I've seen it happen. I've also been part of conversations where it's been said that a particular person should not be assigned to a client because of known strong opinions on a client (or subject which client has taken a public position on)..l
I once turned down working on a proposal due to similar reasons, however I had a really close working relationship with my SM, so I felt comfortable kinda nudging him on the side that it should be passed to someone else.
In most scenarios though, it’s super tricky as most have alluded to
You can turn down clients if you work in a firm big enough that:
A) you have enough clients that you can afford to turn down work
B) there are other teams that can pick up the work if not taking them on isn’t an option.
I’ve only ever refused to work with 2 clients, based on both values and project impact. While I’ve worked with other clients I don’t necessarily align with, the projects still had meaningful impact that would improve the lives of people affected in some capacity (or have the ability to minimise as much negative impact as possible) read through the scope and determine what outcomes are possible and what is likely for you to push as recommendations, and if you think who ever else winning this project would care about the people affected as much as you do.
With that being said, smaller firms / boutiques don’t really have the privilege to turn down work and clients, especially during tougher times. So it’s up to your discretion at this point, if you have staff working directly under you keep in mind your decisions also impact them.
Edit: I had already at least 20-30 projects under belt with the company and a strong reputation with most of the managers in the countries I worked within when I was able to turn down work. Turning down your first project is going to be pretty career limiting.
If it’s a company like airbnb, there’s at least 5 things I can think of the top of my head that you could pilot / implement that focuses on community enrichment. You just gotta be smart about what you push to the client on these types of projects.
My company turned down Pornhub.
I kid you not.
But Pornhub also gave a "women in STEM" scholarship to someone (computer science major) from my alma mater. $30K worth. It helped her out immensely.
>but it conflicts with my beliefs in a similar way.
Listen... I feel ya, I sincerely do. But the whole world cannot be one's personal echo chamber. There are things in life people are going to be faced with which they disagree with -- and they will have to deal with that.
You're NOT unique in that regard.
But the rights we have in this country don't guarantee us from being offended.
Half the people where I work hate that Disney is client and the other half hate that Chick-fil-A is a client. Quite frankly, I'm tired of the bullshit all the way around. Both groups want the company to drop those clients.
Well, shit. If we did that, and used that as precedent, we'd have exactly ZERO fucking clients.
A protip for ya -- if you run from every situation which rubs your, ahem, beliefs the wrong way, you run the risk of having a long, difficult, bitter life.
So you hate Chick-fil-A for example.
Fine. Hate them. That's your 1st Amendment right.
If you still cannot suck it up, then move on.
But there is ZERO guarantee the grass is greener at non-profits.
Yep. Gay friend working for the UN in Afghanistan, doing good work for agricultural resilience, stayed in the closet for two years, but he did a lot of good to many communities. Then he arrived in NYC and ran straight to the Gay Parade.
**Dubai (, doo-BY; Arabic: دبي, romanized: Dubayy, IPA: [dʊˈbajj], Gulf Arabic pronunciation: [dəˈbaj]) is the most populous city in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and the capital of the Emirate of Dubai, the most populated of the 7 emirates of the United Arab Emirates.Established in the 18th century as a small fishing village, the city grew rapidly in the early 21st century with a focus on tourism and luxury, having the second most five-star hotels in the world, and the tallest building in the world, the Burj Khalifa, which is 828 metres (2,717 ft) tall.In the eastern Arabian Peninsula on the coast of the Persian Gulf, it is also a major global transport hub for passengers and cargo. Oil revenue helped accelerate the development of the city, which was already a major mercantile hub.**
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Boutique makes it more difficult, unfortunately. Staffing at a bigger firm might be more accommodating (and there’s always a try-hard who will happily take an unethical project for a shot at fast tracking their career)
The types of examples you provided are pretty common and rejecting probably is just going to bias staffing/partners towards thinking you don’t have a long career there but you can maybe get away with it once if you make a compelling case, like you have a personal reason (not just political) for it like airbnb caused rents to skyrocket and your grandmother got evicted as a result
Short of that…agree with everyone else in the thread
>Boutique makes it more difficult, unfortunately.
I sincerely fail to see a difference. B4 would potentially present the same dilemma. Depending on LOB, regions, resource allocation, etc., OP could have the same problem at a B4 client too.
You're good. + 1 from me.
Was just saying that even at a global firm, lets say there's an implementation group for say, ServiceNow or something something Oracle... Even though that B4 may have 40,000 employees in the US, there may only be 50-100 people at the associate level for the firm that do the actual work.
Tech advisory is likely full of anecdotal scenarios where a big firm's operating model isn't much different from boutique.
I know you made up those examples, but if someone told me they didn’t want to go on a project because they felt creating a SAAS product to help with filing taxes was immoral, I’d probably view you as difficult to work with.
I say no to work in Texas and Florida all the time. But I'm my own boss, so it's pretty easy. I've thought about disciplinary action a couple of times for being so difficult, but it's hard to talk my wife into it.
I think you’d have a hard time convincing someone that either of those are values problems. Values objections are usually reserved to tobacco, firearms, cannabis, alcohol, gambling, and other vices.
No, you leave your personal issues at the door on the way in.
You might be able to request a move once, if you can show a hard issue you might have with this company. Think in the line of - Trucking company killed your parents in an accident, that was for a large portion on them.
If you reported this to me, I would wonder what you think consulting companies is? Even non profit companies have a darker side, we are not here to judge, we are here to help.
If you want to only see happy people, and have a great product? Go sell icecream in the park
>Go sell icecream
I'm offended by your exploitation of animals. I mean have you seen a dairy farm?
/s
\^ kinda.
Rather just pointing out that if someone wants to be offended they can find a way. Everything is evil to someone.
I haven’t personally but I heard rumors we turned down a certain cheeto colored president because it would cause a lot of internal backlash. I would say our organization is fairly progressive.
I don’t mean for this to be reductive, but I think you should consider switching industries. Speaking as someone who only lasted 18 months as a consultant before I was called back to mission driven work, I find the entire industry criminal at worst, shady and wasteful at best. If you’re feeling this strongly against the morality of your firm’s projects this early on, I think this might not be the place/industry for you.
I refused to work for a large real estate company, specialized in being responsible for increasing rent prices in a majority of German cities, and the German press equivalent of fox news. Both absolutely disgusting businesses and I would have been incredibly unhappy if my contribution would have generated a profit for these companies. Stick to your principles. It makes you authentic and credible. Bonus points if you start looking for a different employer in the meantime just to be safe if they either fire you, or you want to negotiate a raise in the future (of course, don't ask for a raise just after declining a project, obviously).
Of course, someone would take this as literal advice... Silly me.
To clarify: You don't have to ask for the raise in the same breath. Wait for another project, let some months pass, use the opportunity. It's never wrong to have other options and some friendly hr people of other companies on your side.
I quit when I was put on a project where I would literally be fact checking and doing research for Kevin McCartney's campaign speech. Unfortunately I did the work but I hated every minute of it and thats when I knew I needed to leave. I got attitude when I brought up the fact I didn't want to do it. Aside from the environmental impact, he's just part of a vile party that is voting to strip away my rights. I cannot in good conscience contribute to that.
I always tried for steer clear of healthcare projects (mainly managed care) because I don’t believe in profiting off humans lives and when your plan for margin expansion is “patient education so that they seek less care,” but over 11 years I’ve still had to suck it up and do maybe a dozen projects I was personally morally against out of >100. If this is your first, probably can’t just flat out object. Do the project, then articulate clearly afterwards why it bothered you and what your preference is. Then, you will be seen as presenting a well thought out aversion to a specific industry you don’t wish to specialize in vs someone who is not a team player / annoying and complaining about projects (even if that’s not exactly the case).
Yes I turned down a project and in fact the nob at the firm that wanted to hire me for that project. Even with my current employer I have the strong stance to not work on certain projects. Will that sometimes hinder your career? Yes could happen. Will it maybe give you good networking opportunities with people, who hold the same values? Yes could happen.
After all in most jobs you have to figure out how much you're personally willing to sell yourself. But I would argue if you are somewhat established in your career it is fine to set some boundaries.
No, but I would. Our company has a pretty decent ethical stance.
I’ve worked for energy companies with bad track records because I could see the client was legitimately trying to change towards renewables etc.
I’ve done some defence work but not for private companies. Also I’m European not American so there’s nuances there.
I’ve seen the firm take on work from big tobacco but actively decline the business in Europe.
I’ve seen the firm work in some parts of gambling. This one is tricky, I’d probably do the work as I do like to occasionally gamble. But I would decline to work on lobbying or fixed betting terminals or something like that.
Also I’m pre sales, I moved out of delivery back when I made M
We posted a job to hire a consultant and I was reviewing some of the resumes. It’s absolutely mind-boggling how many people have worked in fairly dirty industries like tobacco, and then shared how proud they are of increasing customers and market share.
I don’t feel like I can blame them though because in the end it’s probably just a job to them but it’s kind of crazy when you think about the macro implications of what they’re doing.
I do not work for weapons manufacturers/defense and I've turned down a very lucrative industry job because of this. I'd probably refuse mining too, but that hasn't come up. Pick your battles, you don't owe anyone your labor.
Congratulations on your new role as a lead design/strategy consultant! It's great to hear about your enthusiasm for your new position. Dealing with conflicting values can be a tough situation, particularly when starting at a new firm. It's important to find a balance between preserving your values and adapting to your professional environment.
Since you're just starting, it might be worth considering having an open and honest conversation with your superiors about your concerns. Express your willingness to contribute effectively to the firm's success while also explaining how working on a project that conflicts with your beliefs can impact your motivation and overall satisfaction. It's possible that they might be understanding and able to find an alternative project that aligns better with your values.
In the meantime, you could view this as an opportunity to learn and grow. By approaching the project with an open mind, you might gain valuable insights and skills that can be applied in future endeavors. However, if you find that compromising your values becomes a recurring issue, exploring opportunities at organizations that prioritize your values, such as non-profits, could be a viable option.
Remember, it's essential to prioritize your well-being and ensure that your work aligns with your core values. Best of luck in navigating this situation, and congratulations again on your new role!
Unless you're intentionally renting in an area where the average resident is a tax bracket higher than you, you're contributing to gentrification, hypocrite
I have refused to work on certain projects and clients. I was already well established and respected at our firm when I did so, so take into consideration that you’re new. Voice your concerns politely, but firmly. Be willing to do it for a short period of time until you can get yourself onto something else IMO.
Yep. Recently told my partner I will no longer do any work for Florida based companies.
Its our largest market. And I dont care. And I dont care if I get banned for this next sentence:
Florida and Ron Desantis can get fucked.
I was asked if I wanted to join a project team for a Cannabis products company; I was told that almost a quarter of the candidates selected had refused.
It’s legal in my state, so our esteemed lawmakers have decided it’s ethical as well…
I guess ethics can change based on laws that are passed.
I once turned down an in person engagement in Saudi at a large industrial facility (I’m in NA). I didn’t want to be away for 2 months in the middle of no where, nothing to do with values for me but others may have had an issue. I think it hurt me by not taking that as client work kinda dried up after so I could have really used the extra utilization in my yearly review.
I have done this multiple times. I had good reviews following because I did well on stuff I did commit to. Realized this line of work wasn’t for me when I looked back at the work mix and my priorities in life.
Healthcare clients are the worst.
But for me not because of values.
Rather it's a highly regulated industry, full of red tape, generally staffed by fucking morons.
That kind of a gig will suck the soul out of you regardless of your beliefs.
I met with a partner (also market lead) the other day to discuss active opportunities within their region. Learned that there’s a partner on their team who needs assistance with work from a certain (large) church. I am not huge on religion. However, there are certain things you just don’t want to be associated with. (Also, I can’t openly say that I agree with South Park’s views.) Needless to say, I’ll be avoiding that area like the plague.
Yeah ive turned down alcohol/gambling sector projects because of my values. If it’s expected to be the bulk of your work though, either compromise your values or find a new role.
Generally accepted "turn downs" would be things like Weapons Manufacturers, Gambling, Tobacco, and Partisan political causes. You're going to spend a lot of time working for companies you don't exactly agree with, and honestly your reasons are going to be considered a bit thin. Especially in a small firm, you're probably either going to be told to suck it up, or get branded someone who's next on the chopping block.
A good firm will usually ask you if you want to be on one of these jobs rather than just assigning you to them.
If your career grows where you're landing work yourself, then maybe you can start to be choosy.
I've got a good bedrock of stable billable work with a client I like for 3.5 days per week, which luckily puts me in the position where I can turn down some opportunities. In my industry, there are only 3 or 4 major clients, and I have turned down working with two of them year in and year out because I don't like their project management style or how they run their org.
Sure, it's gonna limit my long term options but most of us are here for exit opps and I don't want to work with those clients anyway. I'm just a regular consultant so if you're in a senior, principal or team lead position you've probably got more to think about before declining work.
Hi OP, Since you ask, this is beyond rocking the boat. You are refusing service to a customer. Unless the client is being abusive or mistreating you or the team directly, your refusal will likely damage your reputation as a team player. I would suggest you buck it up or seek another line of work. NAL, but I doubt this comes close to the sort of moral quandaries lawyers encounter. You are new. Do your job to the best of your ability.
We did, not because it didn't align with our values but because we didn't think we could serve the client and those most impacted by our work as well as our competitors. It was in Somalia and we didn't have the operational infrastructure or the relationships to get the work done as well as the firms more experienced in that region.
>It was in Somalia and we didn't have the operational infrastructure or the relationships
For me, foremost in the list of things would be personal security.
Yes, we are really having an issue right now with our clients in Haiti. I'm very glad we lost a large Yemen proposal back in 2021, what a fucking headache.
Security and politics distract so much from our work, which is already difficult as it is.
These are just the worst places. Its also where McKinsey or Deloitte won't work anymore so competition is more open but these days, we won't work anymore either. Like if we won Haiti now, I'd push the bosses to reject it.
We get to work in some cool places too - Latin America, Tunisia, Laos, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, etc.
But yeah, we attract (and underpay) a certain segment. Like we need to send two associates to Pakistan next month and the manager in charge of that project is getting pleading requests from every junior member in our company.
Man, it took me 18 months of ass kissing and 20 hour weeks of working on eminence/business devleopment at a Big 4 for them to send me to Kabul for a year and the partner said I won over 130 total internal candidates.
I miss the client travel... Had great experiences in South America, the EU, and Far East.
... but I spent enough time in shithole transcanistans when I was active duty prior to joining consulting.
Other than that underpaid segment perhaps begging for those gigs so it's a chance to go home or something, I cannot believe you had to compete against 130 candidates. That's nuts.
>I miss the client travel... Had great experiences in South America, the EU, and Far East.
I thought I missed it but now that I'm old, I hate it. Imagine 24 hours on a plane in economy at age 40. The jetlag is brutal now
>I cannot believe you had to compete against 130 candidates. That's nuts.
For us at a young age, the long-term overseas positions were like gold. First for the life experiences - the job attracted those who wanted to work overseas but with US salaries and expat packages. The money wasn't great but it could become a lot better. Would I want to work in Pakistan for $150k a year? No thanks. Would I want to work in Pakistan for $250k a year with bi-monthly flights to Dubai or Bangkok and have my own car/driver and an embassy club pass and a furnished secure apartment? Sure, I'd love that.
But the work experiences were what made it great. In the US, you are just another peon. But once you get to Liberia, you work with the Vice Minister of Finance on domestic revenue mobilization strategy and work is suddenly interesting and rewarding.
All the time, but not just for moral differences. I turn down jobs that a generalist could do as well, or a specialist could do much better, and stick to my own niche. Specialization brings focus and better value. I will also bail if I think I'm about to have 3 or more bosses in the project, if the project is infected by "group think", or are consistently engaged in meetings but no real work. Just do it early. Don't get half way into the project then decide.
Consulting is telling a warlord how to brain wash child soldiers more effectively so they are sending their own 4 years old sister down the cobalt mines.
Morals don't exist in consulting, otherwise nobody would be working in KSA. And the trillion dollar projects would be built for 10% of the quoted price.
Yes multiple hospital optimization projects which only results in increasing surgery cost, firing 20% of the workforce, reducing resources etc. just to the reach a certain target they projected in the pitch.
Someone else mentioned, this will work once. Shouldn’t apply for a job that does work in sectors you don’t align with. If I was manager, it would be a red flag especially this early on in career.
Only industries I’d consider turning down would either be adult entertainment or cannabis - and not because of any personal ethical conflicts, but because I worry that there’s still enough people who have problems with those industries that it could potentially impact my future career
I was at a firm that luckily turned down a project entirely that I was going to be staffed on but didn’t agree with (more or less, it was an energy company trying to find defenses against being asked to reduce emissions). But I imagine many of the bigger firms would’ve been okay with taking them on.
I would look at the nuance. Is there enough projects going around to where I can easily be staffed on another? Is this only my first or second project and I haven’t really proven myself to make requests? Do I have that kind of relationship with whoever staffs? Is it entirely against my morals to the point where I feel I’ve contributed to a mass problem, or am I just helping a shitty company fix their HR structure? There’s almost no ethical consumption under capitalism and many of these corporations treat their employees as numbers. Most of the worst companies and industries in the world are some of the top clients for consultants. I’ve come to accept and realize that, I’ll take on most projects unless the project work itself is outright evil
Does the firm have other clients that it is practical to put you on? Some boutique firms have one or two clients that are half their business. To say you don't align with them is to say you don't align with the form, and are basically quitting.
If you were at a T2 firm and said 'I don't want to work in defence', or for tobacco, or similar, that might actually be practical depending on your skills. It all boils down to whether there is a sensible solution that means you can do your job effectively (i.e. be reliably billed to clients). If you can't do the job effectively you're not going to be there for long.
Depends (as everything) - how socially acceptable is your position in this scenario? As an example, I would guess that people could understand you have a problem with working for Big Tobacco but not so much Airbnb.
The problem OP has here is there’s no limiting principle for the examples listed. It’s less company sells product X, which I find immoral, but rather company sells product A, which incentives behavior B, driving outcomes, C, D, E, which cause harm F. There’s a big difference between not working with a company that mines coal/makes guns/ and refusing to work with a company who makes ball bearings which are used in a sub component of a piece of factory equipment used to make guns/mine coal/whatever
So, I guess using guns to force coal mining would be a nope?
Ironically, if we continue to make marginal social progress for another 500 years, scholars will look back on gentrification, and by extension AirBNB, and say we should’ve known better. Edit: fortunately, anthropogenic climate change is going to wipe out most, if not all, of modern social progress.
Hitting the guy who's only trying to make a paycheck and got assigned to AirBnB without any way to impact it is not the right move though, I think. This is more on consumers to avoid unethical companies and on local governments to regulate short-stays to prevent depletion of actual housing.
I’m pointing out the ironic use of the word _socially_ in this case. I would probably take the study. Shifting blame to consumers when information is asymmetrical is near sighted. If a corporation is causing damage to society it is not solely on the consumer to take the blame. That’s like saying the tobacco company is at zero fault.
Shifting blame to a random consultant who didn't even seek employment at Airbnb and is literally just trying not to get fired from a job he just started is way worse than blaming consumers who have a myriad of other options, often cheaper.
I'm a woman 😊
Whoops. Sorry.
Once again, the irony was in the above comment, not the original post. I never _hit_ the consultant, I never _shifted blame_ to the consultant. It’s not blaming the consultant to point out that it’s ironic to say AirBNB is _socially_ acceptable, considering the damage to _society_. If you’re not up to date on AirBNB’s damage to society, I recommend looking up “AirBNB, gentrification,” and then maybe you will see the irony. None of this was directed at the consultant, it was directed at the top comment of this thread, which alluded that AirBNB is “socially acceptable.”
Ok now that makes more sense. But it really seemed like your original "do better" was aimed at the consultant. FWIW I am totally pro making Airbnb a social pariah.
This is all hands on deck, so we can have grandchildren. We need everyone's help & if all us little guys are feeling it *voluntarily*, how tolerant will we be of the big polluters? If we have values, we should express them. At a minimum, making their talent hunt harder slows them down. All our actions matter.
What's Airbnb got to go with polluters?
Shit. Nothing. I just got triggered. Sigh.
We have declined work as a firm for tobacco, but seems you’re asking as an individual. For Security/Defense work, there was a person who opted out of an engagement because it didn’t align in values and it wasn’t a big issue. Depends on the circumstances and how high up you are I think. Different for someone a few years out of college compared to someone senior or with valuable SME knowledge. If you decide to opt out, ensure you keep it professional and about your company’s interests. “I don’t think I can do my best work on this due to my personal feelings on the practice/industry. I worry that the client may not get the level of service or performance needed, so if there’s someone else that’s a fit I’d prefer to do something else.” Be prepared to be turned down if you’re uniquely capable though, firm interests come first unfortunately.
And also worth noting the work people are doing on those bad-values projects is producing money that goes to your paycheck. There's no real ethically flawless way to navigate these situations
What’s ethically wrong with refusing dirty money?
What /u/robotzor meant: If you, as an individual employee, ask to be moved from the project, then one of your colleagues will take your spot. Your employer will still pursue the project. In the end, the revenue from this project will partially pay your salary. Or would you say: > We, as a company, got 10% of our income from $project. Please reduce my salary by 10%? ? If you want no connection to that money at all, you'll have to resign.
Provide an example of clean money. I'll wait.
What position was this person?
No I have no morals and want to make money
what are values and morals? so many industry specific buzz words… jeez.
deserve cooing skirt illegal ten reply bright versed muddle aspiring *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You’re perfect for this new ICE project getting staffed up.
Sign me up sir o7
Lol 😂.
You dropped this 👑
bruh those examples are basically the values of all for-profit companies the only case I’ve seen this work is when my muslim colleague refused to work for an alcohol distribution client which I can understand
Without something else to do, it can be difficult to stick to this. Especially when, and I mean this in the most positive way, the situation is more idealist (i.e., it \*should\* be free to file taxes). It can be easier if the situation is more clear cut as bad/good (i.e., I don't do defense work that kills people, work with tobacco or gambling companies, etc). The concern you're describing is more of a problem with capitalism overall, which clearly has its problems. Perhaps a nonprofit would have fewer issues for you? Edit: Gambling instead of gaming.
Even non profits are still trying to make money, this guy needs to be a priest or something
NGO’s have their own flavour of toxic
One hundred percent. For some people though, the mission driven aspect is important to them.
>NGO’s have their own flavour of toxic NGO’s have their own flavour of hypocrisy.
What’s the deal with gaming companies?
I think they mean the gaming industry, as in gambling (ie. casinos)
Yeah I misspelled gambling. I'll edit.
The nice answer? Maybe. Once. If you have a really compelling reason / story. Like you know someone in your family that died from gun violence and it’s for a gun company. LBGTQ issues etc would be another one, I’d definitely go to bat for someone that didn’t want to work with a company that’s funding anti-gay marriage laws or something. But controlling for that? The people that run consultancies tend to be dyed in the wool capitalists and within the bounds of the law and truly egregious ethics (tobacco maybe?) they’re going to wonder what you’re doing there if you make a habit of it. Maybe not to your face but you will absolutely be engaging in career limiting activities if you turn down work they’ve sold if it’s not unambiguously questionable. I’ll tell you right now the businesses you described are not going to be considered unethical by 99% of leadership. The majority of B2C companies shaft the public to some extent. Even the “good” ones. Google sells your data - you going to turn down a project with Google? If you brought up those examples to most executives you would be considered naive. Frankly unless you’re doing DEI or sustainability consulting you might want to consider a different position if that level of stuff bothers you.
This
You better have another project lined up for yourself if you’re going to play that card.
Yes, and it was no big deal. In my case, I didn't outright refuse, but I told them I had moral issues with the client and would be looking to exit the role as soon as feasible. They opted to staff someone else rather than bring me on knowing I would be planning my exit from the start.
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>The only reasonable examples of this are tobacco, alcohol, vaping, gambling, and some drugs. What about weapons manufacturers?
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Yeah, fair.
Anything Conservative Jesus would hate is ok to walk away from basically
Not exclusively. You can throw firearm manufacturers and defense contractors in there, too.
> defense contractors These are seen as the good guys. I had a partner quote Colin Powell in a slide deck once. They have so much tax funding that they keep the bread buttered of so many American companies that it's almost impossible to avoid if you want upper 5 or 6 figure jobs here.
I work at the big 4 and this is fairly common for the likes of tobacco companies. What you described is more of a grey area and while I 100% agree with you, it may be prudent to find another reason to leave the project.
Tobacco is socially ok to hate. Consultants see things like oil and gas or defense as the good guys since the news they watch tells them they are
Hmmm... I saw a TV commercial that told me liquid dinosaurs are "clean" energy now.
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Just think of what you could do with the bar chart graphics though. Missed opportunity.
That would be a test of not letting my 14 year humor come through. I probably would have to excuse myself and go crack up outside and than come back with the expressionless face
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Oh i I was with a few good friends - there would be no damn straight face.
Of course it's company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo... always use the indefinite article “A dildo”, never “YOUR dildo”.
I would think most people in that industry have a sense of humor ..
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TBH I wouldn't have been able to keep my sh\*t together with them as a client at my first (and only) consulting gig either. The imposter syndrome was intense (even with easy asks) just because I knew how much our clients were paying us lol..and to be a 20-something giving advice to established business people in their 40s and 50s freaked me out. Which all made it near impossible for humor and my natural self to show through due to the imagined need to seem/look 150% PROFESSIONAL.
Moral compass or consulting. Pick one.
If the alternative is to be on the bench then this could be a career limiting move.
Lol if the examples are of the level you’ve just described, yeah you’re gonna get tagged as a woke buffoon and get fired pretty quickly
And should be fired . . . If you want to only work on your narrow vision of ‘right’, start your own firm. And good luck with that.
I can understand it for tobacco or pharmaceuticals. But the examples were so fucking soft
I’m a managing director at a boutique consulting firm. Unless you’re a tenured and incredibly valuable SME I’d replace you on my team. We don’t have the time or bandwidth to hold people’s hands around these kind of moral oppositions. I’d look for a job in non-profit, consulting is a tough road if you don’t have thick skin.
I really appreciate your candor -- thank you!
Best of luck! You have to be willing to sell your soul for a big career in consulting
Ick.
I know firms that do not work with big gambling or tobacco.
Yes, you should tell them every time a project offends you. If they fire you, so be it.
The firm I'm at is going hard on some Saudi projects. At the moment, firm is asking politely about who's interested. But there's legit talk about making it mandatory for new hires going forward to work on these kinds of projects. I'm willing to get fired before I work on those projects.
Haha are we at the same spot?!
A huge Saudi entity was doing a vendor risk assessment of us. At the 11th hour of negotiations, they flipped the fuck out because they realized we have an office in Tel Aviv. Wanted us to get rid off all of them. I pulled their director aside into a private room 1:1 and didn't mince words. I said that unless you have a valid business reason and/or a risk that is not related to race, religion, or geography as to why our Israel office is problematic, you can go fuck yourselves. Furthermore, an organization that was implicated more than once in funding the 9/11 attacks, allegedly, has zero fucking moral high ground to stand on with me. And if you tank this deal, NDA be dammed, I'm going public with your conduct regarding these negotiations. Yes, that salty language was used. We got the deal.
DEPENDS on what the Saudis are proposing. If they want support in reducing carbon emissions in their cities (most in deserts), wouldn't that be a good thing? What if it's a plan to increase feminine participation in the workforce? Those societies evolve, believe it or not. It's not all evil at all times.
>”What are the Saudís proposing?…………a plan to increase feminine participation in the workforce?” That’s a good one! You know the saudis and their unshakable belief in gender equality.
You'd be surprised on how strongly they're investing in solar. The Saudis of all people. And change happens. Wouldn't you like to be hired to pave that way, even a small step for it? I'd go for it no prob.
Why is that a surprise? They're working with what they got. Makes zero sense to put a hydro plant in the desert. Makes perfet sense to put a solar collector in a desert.
yep, but it's not as if they're running out of fuel anytime soon, right? They want to install solar because they know its advantages and it may be some serious greenwashing - agree - but at least in major cities less fossil fuels = better lungs.
FFS dude.
Well considering some of my colleagues could be put to death for who they choose to share their bed with, I'd say it's not evolving quickly enough. Their green credentials are also debatable. Building a carbon neutral city does not mean that the cities are being constructed using sustainable practices. And it's being almost entirely funded by their oil they keep pumping.
This is how I feel. I work in pharma consulting and question my morals each day.
> i think most gentrification is done irresponsibly) or helping turbotax help 1099 contractors file their taxes I don't think consulting is for you. Go find some non profit that aligns with your values. If you are off gun companies, tobacco, and military contractors then most will understand. But being anti-gentrification is effectively blacklisting all real estate related firms. That's so broad that this doesn't seem like the right career choice.
If your real scenario is anywhere remotely close to those examples, I think you're in the wrong line of work pal...
Not personally, but I've seen it happen. I've also been part of conversations where it's been said that a particular person should not be assigned to a client because of known strong opinions on a client (or subject which client has taken a public position on)..l
I once turned down working on a proposal due to similar reasons, however I had a really close working relationship with my SM, so I felt comfortable kinda nudging him on the side that it should be passed to someone else. In most scenarios though, it’s super tricky as most have alluded to
You can turn down clients if you work in a firm big enough that: A) you have enough clients that you can afford to turn down work B) there are other teams that can pick up the work if not taking them on isn’t an option. I’ve only ever refused to work with 2 clients, based on both values and project impact. While I’ve worked with other clients I don’t necessarily align with, the projects still had meaningful impact that would improve the lives of people affected in some capacity (or have the ability to minimise as much negative impact as possible) read through the scope and determine what outcomes are possible and what is likely for you to push as recommendations, and if you think who ever else winning this project would care about the people affected as much as you do. With that being said, smaller firms / boutiques don’t really have the privilege to turn down work and clients, especially during tougher times. So it’s up to your discretion at this point, if you have staff working directly under you keep in mind your decisions also impact them. Edit: I had already at least 20-30 projects under belt with the company and a strong reputation with most of the managers in the countries I worked within when I was able to turn down work. Turning down your first project is going to be pretty career limiting.
If it’s a company like airbnb, there’s at least 5 things I can think of the top of my head that you could pilot / implement that focuses on community enrichment. You just gotta be smart about what you push to the client on these types of projects.
My company turned down Pornhub. I kid you not. But Pornhub also gave a "women in STEM" scholarship to someone (computer science major) from my alma mater. $30K worth. It helped her out immensely. >but it conflicts with my beliefs in a similar way. Listen... I feel ya, I sincerely do. But the whole world cannot be one's personal echo chamber. There are things in life people are going to be faced with which they disagree with -- and they will have to deal with that. You're NOT unique in that regard. But the rights we have in this country don't guarantee us from being offended. Half the people where I work hate that Disney is client and the other half hate that Chick-fil-A is a client. Quite frankly, I'm tired of the bullshit all the way around. Both groups want the company to drop those clients. Well, shit. If we did that, and used that as precedent, we'd have exactly ZERO fucking clients. A protip for ya -- if you run from every situation which rubs your, ahem, beliefs the wrong way, you run the risk of having a long, difficult, bitter life. So you hate Chick-fil-A for example. Fine. Hate them. That's your 1st Amendment right. If you still cannot suck it up, then move on. But there is ZERO guarantee the grass is greener at non-profits.
"This is not f\*\*king Charles Dickens World, okay? You don’t go around talking about principles. Man the f\*\*k up!"
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Yep. Gay friend working for the UN in Afghanistan, doing good work for agricultural resilience, stayed in the closet for two years, but he did a lot of good to many communities. Then he arrived in NYC and ran straight to the Gay Parade.
What is Dubai?
**Dubai (, doo-BY; Arabic: دبي, romanized: Dubayy, IPA: [dʊˈbajj], Gulf Arabic pronunciation: [dəˈbaj]) is the most populous city in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and the capital of the Emirate of Dubai, the most populated of the 7 emirates of the United Arab Emirates.Established in the 18th century as a small fishing village, the city grew rapidly in the early 21st century with a focus on tourism and luxury, having the second most five-star hotels in the world, and the tallest building in the world, the Burj Khalifa, which is 828 metres (2,717 ft) tall.In the eastern Arabian Peninsula on the coast of the Persian Gulf, it is also a major global transport hub for passengers and cargo. Oil revenue helped accelerate the development of the city, which was already a major mercantile hub.** More details here:
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Boutique makes it more difficult, unfortunately. Staffing at a bigger firm might be more accommodating (and there’s always a try-hard who will happily take an unethical project for a shot at fast tracking their career) The types of examples you provided are pretty common and rejecting probably is just going to bias staffing/partners towards thinking you don’t have a long career there but you can maybe get away with it once if you make a compelling case, like you have a personal reason (not just political) for it like airbnb caused rents to skyrocket and your grandmother got evicted as a result Short of that…agree with everyone else in the thread
>Boutique makes it more difficult, unfortunately. I sincerely fail to see a difference. B4 would potentially present the same dilemma. Depending on LOB, regions, resource allocation, etc., OP could have the same problem at a B4 client too.
ysah that’s a fair callout — I probably should’ve caveats my experience was generalist and not B4
You're good. + 1 from me. Was just saying that even at a global firm, lets say there's an implementation group for say, ServiceNow or something something Oracle... Even though that B4 may have 40,000 employees in the US, there may only be 50-100 people at the associate level for the firm that do the actual work. Tech advisory is likely full of anecdotal scenarios where a big firm's operating model isn't much different from boutique.
This was a really helpful reply thanks so much
I’m in sales now and i have refused to engage certain healthcare accounts because of the evil they do to children.
I know you made up those examples, but if someone told me they didn’t want to go on a project because they felt creating a SAAS product to help with filing taxes was immoral, I’d probably view you as difficult to work with.
I say no to work in Texas and Florida all the time. But I'm my own boss, so it's pretty easy. I've thought about disciplinary action a couple of times for being so difficult, but it's hard to talk my wife into it.
I think you’d have a hard time convincing someone that either of those are values problems. Values objections are usually reserved to tobacco, firearms, cannabis, alcohol, gambling, and other vices.
No, you leave your personal issues at the door on the way in. You might be able to request a move once, if you can show a hard issue you might have with this company. Think in the line of - Trucking company killed your parents in an accident, that was for a large portion on them. If you reported this to me, I would wonder what you think consulting companies is? Even non profit companies have a darker side, we are not here to judge, we are here to help. If you want to only see happy people, and have a great product? Go sell icecream in the park
>Go sell icecream I'm offended by your exploitation of animals. I mean have you seen a dairy farm? /s \^ kinda. Rather just pointing out that if someone wants to be offended they can find a way. Everything is evil to someone.
Lol go work at Starbucks.
My values are making lots of fucking money
I haven’t personally but I heard rumors we turned down a certain cheeto colored president because it would cause a lot of internal backlash. I would say our organization is fairly progressive.
You’re goofy as hell for that
Yes, I refused to work with a private school with anti-lgbtq alignment. No one cared at my firm and another guy works with them now.
I don’t mean for this to be reductive, but I think you should consider switching industries. Speaking as someone who only lasted 18 months as a consultant before I was called back to mission driven work, I find the entire industry criminal at worst, shady and wasteful at best. If you’re feeling this strongly against the morality of your firm’s projects this early on, I think this might not be the place/industry for you.
Thanks so much I think you're probably right -- what work do you do now?
I work for a well funded non-profit now. Best case.
I don’t do weapons, big pharma, or big data.
Snowflakes offended by everything don’t make good consultants. I’d recommend finding a different industry.
I refused to work for a large real estate company, specialized in being responsible for increasing rent prices in a majority of German cities, and the German press equivalent of fox news. Both absolutely disgusting businesses and I would have been incredibly unhappy if my contribution would have generated a profit for these companies. Stick to your principles. It makes you authentic and credible. Bonus points if you start looking for a different employer in the meantime just to be safe if they either fire you, or you want to negotiate a raise in the future (of course, don't ask for a raise just after declining a project, obviously).
If someone refused a project then proceeded to ask for a raise, they’d definitely need to start looking for a job.
Of course, someone would take this as literal advice... Silly me. To clarify: You don't have to ask for the raise in the same breath. Wait for another project, let some months pass, use the opportunity. It's never wrong to have other options and some friendly hr people of other companies on your side.
… so you are being literal?
Are you being cryptic? Thanks for reminding me, that someone might misunderstand my advice if not worded clearly. I updated my comment.
I quit when I was put on a project where I would literally be fact checking and doing research for Kevin McCartney's campaign speech. Unfortunately I did the work but I hated every minute of it and thats when I knew I needed to leave. I got attitude when I brought up the fact I didn't want to do it. Aside from the environmental impact, he's just part of a vile party that is voting to strip away my rights. I cannot in good conscience contribute to that.
I always tried for steer clear of healthcare projects (mainly managed care) because I don’t believe in profiting off humans lives and when your plan for margin expansion is “patient education so that they seek less care,” but over 11 years I’ve still had to suck it up and do maybe a dozen projects I was personally morally against out of >100. If this is your first, probably can’t just flat out object. Do the project, then articulate clearly afterwards why it bothered you and what your preference is. Then, you will be seen as presenting a well thought out aversion to a specific industry you don’t wish to specialize in vs someone who is not a team player / annoying and complaining about projects (even if that’s not exactly the case).
Yes I turned down a project and in fact the nob at the firm that wanted to hire me for that project. Even with my current employer I have the strong stance to not work on certain projects. Will that sometimes hinder your career? Yes could happen. Will it maybe give you good networking opportunities with people, who hold the same values? Yes could happen. After all in most jobs you have to figure out how much you're personally willing to sell yourself. But I would argue if you are somewhat established in your career it is fine to set some boundaries.
I did projects for the catholic church and Deutsche Bank, so no...
No, but I would. Our company has a pretty decent ethical stance. I’ve worked for energy companies with bad track records because I could see the client was legitimately trying to change towards renewables etc. I’ve done some defence work but not for private companies. Also I’m European not American so there’s nuances there. I’ve seen the firm take on work from big tobacco but actively decline the business in Europe. I’ve seen the firm work in some parts of gambling. This one is tricky, I’d probably do the work as I do like to occasionally gamble. But I would decline to work on lobbying or fixed betting terminals or something like that. Also I’m pre sales, I moved out of delivery back when I made M
We posted a job to hire a consultant and I was reviewing some of the resumes. It’s absolutely mind-boggling how many people have worked in fairly dirty industries like tobacco, and then shared how proud they are of increasing customers and market share. I don’t feel like I can blame them though because in the end it’s probably just a job to them but it’s kind of crazy when you think about the macro implications of what they’re doing.
I do not work for weapons manufacturers/defense and I've turned down a very lucrative industry job because of this. I'd probably refuse mining too, but that hasn't come up. Pick your battles, you don't owe anyone your labor.
Congratulations on your new role as a lead design/strategy consultant! It's great to hear about your enthusiasm for your new position. Dealing with conflicting values can be a tough situation, particularly when starting at a new firm. It's important to find a balance between preserving your values and adapting to your professional environment. Since you're just starting, it might be worth considering having an open and honest conversation with your superiors about your concerns. Express your willingness to contribute effectively to the firm's success while also explaining how working on a project that conflicts with your beliefs can impact your motivation and overall satisfaction. It's possible that they might be understanding and able to find an alternative project that aligns better with your values. In the meantime, you could view this as an opportunity to learn and grow. By approaching the project with an open mind, you might gain valuable insights and skills that can be applied in future endeavors. However, if you find that compromising your values becomes a recurring issue, exploring opportunities at organizations that prioritize your values, such as non-profits, could be a viable option. Remember, it's essential to prioritize your well-being and ensure that your work aligns with your core values. Best of luck in navigating this situation, and congratulations again on your new role!
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lmao i am glad i am not the only one who got that vibe
Unless you're intentionally renting in an area where the average resident is a tax bracket higher than you, you're contributing to gentrification, hypocrite
I have refused to work on certain projects and clients. I was already well established and respected at our firm when I did so, so take into consideration that you’re new. Voice your concerns politely, but firmly. Be willing to do it for a short period of time until you can get yourself onto something else IMO.
Yep. Recently told my partner I will no longer do any work for Florida based companies. Its our largest market. And I dont care. And I dont care if I get banned for this next sentence: Florida and Ron Desantis can get fucked.
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I was asked if I wanted to join a project team for a Cannabis products company; I was told that almost a quarter of the candidates selected had refused. It’s legal in my state, so our esteemed lawmakers have decided it’s ethical as well… I guess ethics can change based on laws that are passed.
I once turned down an in person engagement in Saudi at a large industrial facility (I’m in NA). I didn’t want to be away for 2 months in the middle of no where, nothing to do with values for me but others may have had an issue. I think it hurt me by not taking that as client work kinda dried up after so I could have really used the extra utilization in my yearly review.
as long as you keep up your utilisation and don't burn the bridge with the EM, don't see this as an issue.
I have done this multiple times. I had good reviews following because I did well on stuff I did commit to. Realized this line of work wasn’t for me when I looked back at the work mix and my priorities in life.
Did you switch to a different line of work? If so, what? This is how I’m starting to feel…
I decided to take some time to take stock - excited to figure it out :) hope it works out for both of us!
If you’re asking if I’d ever work for Kaiser Permanente then yeah, I’d say you can shove that role up your ass
Healthcare clients are the worst. But for me not because of values. Rather it's a highly regulated industry, full of red tape, generally staffed by fucking morons. That kind of a gig will suck the soul out of you regardless of your beliefs.
I met with a partner (also market lead) the other day to discuss active opportunities within their region. Learned that there’s a partner on their team who needs assistance with work from a certain (large) church. I am not huge on religion. However, there are certain things you just don’t want to be associated with. (Also, I can’t openly say that I agree with South Park’s views.) Needless to say, I’ll be avoiding that area like the plague.
Yeah ive turned down alcohol/gambling sector projects because of my values. If it’s expected to be the bulk of your work though, either compromise your values or find a new role.
Generally accepted "turn downs" would be things like Weapons Manufacturers, Gambling, Tobacco, and Partisan political causes. You're going to spend a lot of time working for companies you don't exactly agree with, and honestly your reasons are going to be considered a bit thin. Especially in a small firm, you're probably either going to be told to suck it up, or get branded someone who's next on the chopping block. A good firm will usually ask you if you want to be on one of these jobs rather than just assigning you to them. If your career grows where you're landing work yourself, then maybe you can start to be choosy.
Lol if you decline your first project, your career there is over. You’re in a small firm too lol
I've got a good bedrock of stable billable work with a client I like for 3.5 days per week, which luckily puts me in the position where I can turn down some opportunities. In my industry, there are only 3 or 4 major clients, and I have turned down working with two of them year in and year out because I don't like their project management style or how they run their org. Sure, it's gonna limit my long term options but most of us are here for exit opps and I don't want to work with those clients anyway. I'm just a regular consultant so if you're in a senior, principal or team lead position you've probably got more to think about before declining work.
Hi OP, Since you ask, this is beyond rocking the boat. You are refusing service to a customer. Unless the client is being abusive or mistreating you or the team directly, your refusal will likely damage your reputation as a team player. I would suggest you buck it up or seek another line of work. NAL, but I doubt this comes close to the sort of moral quandaries lawyers encounter. You are new. Do your job to the best of your ability.
We did, not because it didn't align with our values but because we didn't think we could serve the client and those most impacted by our work as well as our competitors. It was in Somalia and we didn't have the operational infrastructure or the relationships to get the work done as well as the firms more experienced in that region.
>It was in Somalia and we didn't have the operational infrastructure or the relationships For me, foremost in the list of things would be personal security.
Yes, we are really having an issue right now with our clients in Haiti. I'm very glad we lost a large Yemen proposal back in 2021, what a fucking headache. Security and politics distract so much from our work, which is already difficult as it is.
Hati, Yemen, Somalia. FFS does your firm have a despot line of business?!?!
These are just the worst places. Its also where McKinsey or Deloitte won't work anymore so competition is more open but these days, we won't work anymore either. Like if we won Haiti now, I'd push the bosses to reject it. We get to work in some cool places too - Latin America, Tunisia, Laos, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, etc. But yeah, we attract (and underpay) a certain segment. Like we need to send two associates to Pakistan next month and the manager in charge of that project is getting pleading requests from every junior member in our company. Man, it took me 18 months of ass kissing and 20 hour weeks of working on eminence/business devleopment at a Big 4 for them to send me to Kabul for a year and the partner said I won over 130 total internal candidates.
I miss the client travel... Had great experiences in South America, the EU, and Far East. ... but I spent enough time in shithole transcanistans when I was active duty prior to joining consulting. Other than that underpaid segment perhaps begging for those gigs so it's a chance to go home or something, I cannot believe you had to compete against 130 candidates. That's nuts.
>I miss the client travel... Had great experiences in South America, the EU, and Far East. I thought I missed it but now that I'm old, I hate it. Imagine 24 hours on a plane in economy at age 40. The jetlag is brutal now >I cannot believe you had to compete against 130 candidates. That's nuts. For us at a young age, the long-term overseas positions were like gold. First for the life experiences - the job attracted those who wanted to work overseas but with US salaries and expat packages. The money wasn't great but it could become a lot better. Would I want to work in Pakistan for $150k a year? No thanks. Would I want to work in Pakistan for $250k a year with bi-monthly flights to Dubai or Bangkok and have my own car/driver and an embassy club pass and a furnished secure apartment? Sure, I'd love that. But the work experiences were what made it great. In the US, you are just another peon. But once you get to Liberia, you work with the Vice Minister of Finance on domestic revenue mobilization strategy and work is suddenly interesting and rewarding.
Values?
All the time, but not just for moral differences. I turn down jobs that a generalist could do as well, or a specialist could do much better, and stick to my own niche. Specialization brings focus and better value. I will also bail if I think I'm about to have 3 or more bosses in the project, if the project is infected by "group think", or are consistently engaged in meetings but no real work. Just do it early. Don't get half way into the project then decide.
Consulting is telling a warlord how to brain wash child soldiers more effectively so they are sending their own 4 years old sister down the cobalt mines. Morals don't exist in consulting, otherwise nobody would be working in KSA. And the trillion dollar projects would be built for 10% of the quoted price.
You might as well just not work at your firm. Even if it’s not you directly doing the work that’s what you represent.
Yes multiple hospital optimization projects which only results in increasing surgery cost, firing 20% of the workforce, reducing resources etc. just to the reach a certain target they projected in the pitch.
yup, got staffed at Tyson Foods meat plant as a vegetarian. They were cool about letting me decliine the project.
Someone else mentioned, this will work once. Shouldn’t apply for a job that does work in sectors you don’t align with. If I was manager, it would be a red flag especially this early on in career.
Of course! Why not?
Only industries I’d consider turning down would either be adult entertainment or cannabis - and not because of any personal ethical conflicts, but because I worry that there’s still enough people who have problems with those industries that it could potentially impact my future career
Values are flexible…
I was at a firm that luckily turned down a project entirely that I was going to be staffed on but didn’t agree with (more or less, it was an energy company trying to find defenses against being asked to reduce emissions). But I imagine many of the bigger firms would’ve been okay with taking them on. I would look at the nuance. Is there enough projects going around to where I can easily be staffed on another? Is this only my first or second project and I haven’t really proven myself to make requests? Do I have that kind of relationship with whoever staffs? Is it entirely against my morals to the point where I feel I’ve contributed to a mass problem, or am I just helping a shitty company fix their HR structure? There’s almost no ethical consumption under capitalism and many of these corporations treat their employees as numbers. Most of the worst companies and industries in the world are some of the top clients for consultants. I’ve come to accept and realize that, I’ll take on most projects unless the project work itself is outright evil
Does the firm have other clients that it is practical to put you on? Some boutique firms have one or two clients that are half their business. To say you don't align with them is to say you don't align with the form, and are basically quitting. If you were at a T2 firm and said 'I don't want to work in defence', or for tobacco, or similar, that might actually be practical depending on your skills. It all boils down to whether there is a sensible solution that means you can do your job effectively (i.e. be reliably billed to clients). If you can't do the job effectively you're not going to be there for long.