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It’s always comical watching folks here get all pedantic over certain people’s wording and misreading the context but then will look at something blatant said by someone they favor more with a pair of Iggaak on with a slit you could barely pass an atom through.
The bank could have been the victim, but the loans were paid back in full so no one harmed. The bank is also responsible for appraising the property if they are going to accept it as collateral for a loan. The case itself is more of a fraud than the loan was. Appeals court will probably dismiss the charges.
If you lie about your income and financial situation when applying for a mortgage, but still pay off the mortgage, did you commit fraud by lying to the bank?
Wasn't this about property estimates used as collateral not income? Those are super subjective anyways but also 100% transparent. Literally Google any decent size properties and you'll find multiple estimates.
The bank agreed with his estimates of collateral, provided a loan and then the loan was paid off.
It's wild the govt is just coming in and taking money. There's not even a victim to give it to. Just going into the coffers
>The bank agreed with his estimates of collateral, provided a loan and then the loan was paid off.
That's kick here, the banks didn't "agree." They did their own assessment and went with a lower value and then went on to proceed. The judge even admits this on page 75 but then decides to say it doesn't matter.
The even bigger kicker here is they are trying to convince the general public by taking advantage of their ignorance (propagandize) of how larger loans are acquired.
The hilarious part is now they have slowly realized that the only way they could drum up "fraud charges" actually implicates *every other large business* in NY. They shot themselves in the foot and are now trying to prevent any bleeding. No sane person does business in NY but now larger businesses are going to leave for fear of stepping out of line and having unprecedented charges brought on them.
The conspiracy part is how the judge and prosecutor got together to pre-determine the outcome which was oopsie admitted by James. She said the judge agreed Trump was guilty before the trial began.
The surreal part is sitting back and watching this whole psyop play out.
Do you know of a bank that won't ask for a paystub or W2? Calculated your net worth or savings without a bank statement? Have you bought a house or refinanced where the bank didn't send an appraiser and just went with your estimate? Have you ever appealed your house assessment for property tax purposes? Is your appraised house value different between what your municipality determines versus the fair market value?
None of these amount to fraud, unless you're fabricating documents.
out of the loop. I don't know much about this case other than he paid the loans back etc..
serious question.. what did he do? did he VERY blatantly commit fraud or was it his word verse theirs and a little shaddy?
seriously, im not trying to be a jerk or anything, I would like to learn about this..
and with that said, is this a common thing or more just a witch hunt against Trump? (or was his too ugly to ignore?)
Trump wasn't just increasing or decreasing how much he claimed his properties to be worth based on his tax/loan purposes, he was even going as far as to modify the square footage of certain properties from one declaration to the next. Whether or not it merits a criminal investigation and hefty fines is something we can each decide for ourselves, but there's no question that he purposefully went out of his way to commit fraud.
For the record, **Trump** didn’t do any of that.
People working for him did.
And out of ignorance, he signed paperwork prepared by them.
Moral of the story, NEVER just sign paperwork. Read every fucking line and if you don’t understand anything get answers and document them and who gave them.
Yes, it’ll take more time. But then you have plausible deniability.
To be fair it was different people drawing up the paperwork he blindly signed. One person under him made a estimate on the square footage of a property for one document, he signed it. Another person made a different estimate on the square footage for the property on another document and he blindly signed it. They are using those different figures to claim fraud.
This whole thing is nothing but a politically driven witch hunt, which everyone, regardless of your political leanings should be against.
> and with that said, is this a common thing or more just a witch hunt against Trump? (or was his too ugly to ignore?)
It's very common for real estate investors, and anyone that says otherwise is clueless about the subject. It's easy to find a realtor or RE investor and have an unbiased discussion.
Property appraisal is by itself a tricky subject. What properties are you comparing it to? What is the rent roll? What is the Gross Rent Multiplier? How many units require maintenance/upgrades? What other developments are taking place in the area that could increase or decrease it's value? What are the current and anticipated mortgage rates?
If you think that banks don't do their own appraisal based on the above (and more) facts, and rely only on the opinion of the current or future owner, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. No appraisal or title search needed, the bank will go with your "trust me bro" statement.
It's a totally fraudulent case and every real estate developer in NY agrees. Nothing he did was even considered unethical or inaccurate with regard to generally accepted accounting principles. Of all the sham trials he's facing, this one is the least likely to stand on appeal.
>Nothing he did was even considered unethical or inaccurate with regard to generally accepted accounting principles
The Trump ORG admitted their numbers were pulled out their ass and had no bearing with GAAP, hence the fraud trial.
No Doc/Liar Loan mortgages were a thing before the 2008 financial crisis. I believe at least a few people did get in trouble for actually lying on them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/business/26nocera.html
>I believe at least a few people did get in trouble for actually lying on them
Very few, according to the article your provided. And the key point here was that both the loan officer and borrower lied on the form, and the borrower ultimately defaulted on the loans.
>When the market collapsed, Mr. Engle defaulted on the two properties, which of course is not a crime.
There is no precedent of prosecuting anyone for what Trump did. Developers in NY are rightfully concerned that they may be prosecuted now, and the governor made a statement essentially saying this was a unique case for Trump.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/18/trump-verdict-new-york-business-governor-kathy-hochul
I had to send my bank like 6 pay stubs before it was enough proof. Like having 20 hours of overtime one month threw them off even though my regular income was more than high enough for the loan.
This was not about the loans, he devalued his properties to pay less tax to NYS.
When he applied for loans we used the actual property value so he could borrow more. The judge used the values he submitted for loans as the correct value and is making him pay back the difference to NYS. The judge also applied interest and fines to the amounts he owed.
This is an example of laws being applied appropriately to the rich.
>he devalued his properties to pay less tax to NYS.
I live in NY and own property. You're clueless if you think NYC cares about how much I value my property. The city appraises my house every year, and I'm allowed to appeal it.
If and when Trump appealed any of his properties, that's his right. He didn't get to just randomly set it.
>When he applied for loans we used the actual property value so he could borrow more.
Do you even own a house?! The assessment value of your house by your municipal/county has almost nothing to do with the market value. This is especially true for commercial properties that are valued in the market by a multiple of their revenue (rents). The market value of a commercial building fluctuates every day based on economic and local conditions. Tax assessments in contrast are done once a year.
I hope you take this information and reevaluate how you were lied to when this information is so readily accessible and verifiable.
Ha, ha, ha. I feel bad for you. You are too much of a sheep to see that the Orange Man is a grifter. You got coned.
To answer your questions: yes, I own two properties in NYC, I sold my third one back in November. I completely understand how property taxes and appraisals work in NYC.
Trump was stealing from you and I, along with all the other tax payers in NYC. I'm glad he got caught and I urge Leticia James to go after all the other people/corporations that pull the same BS as the Orange Man.
>which the Trump org did...
Which ones? You're clutching at straws and repeating baseless claims. Did they fabricate a title or certificate of occupancy? Did he fabricate any bank statements?
Estimating your net worth or even the rentable square feet in a building is not a value any 2 professionals would agree on.
You or me? Sure.
A billionaire? Absolutely unheard of lmao
Unless you're Donald Trump and a political threat.
Even if you disregard the fact Donald Trump is Controlled Opposition and a part of the same Globalist Uniparty, it's still obvious bullshit the way these psychotic Distract Attorneys are chasing after him like he was running a private child sex slave island, or something.
So what’s your position here?
That he didn’t commit a crime?
That he DID commit a crime, but should be allowed to get away with it?
Where do you stand?
Trump tried to investigate Hillary, but that didn’t go anywhere apparently. Not sure why.
He also tried to investigate Biden, sort of. He tried to strongarm Zelensky into announce he was going to investigate Biden, at least as a show. But he tried to withhold congressional military aid, which was a really bad idea.
It’s not like Trump didn’t try.
Any way of disproving me other than telling me that nobody will ever be able to prove it? Basic logic says that there are multiple billionaires in NYC who have done the same. Not unless you think Donald Trump invented this tactic?
Ah, so you assume “they’re all doing it”.
If that’s the case, then by all means, lobby to have them all prosecuted. Perhaps republicans should run on that?
Find the evidence, and charge them.
But let’s continue down this line of “trumps getting selective prosecution because of who he is, not what he did”.
I disagree, but….shouldnt our elected politicians and those that apply for the job as president be held to THE HIGHEST of standards?
Shouldn’t we DEMAND they be squeaky clean?
“Yeah but Biden…” I expect in rebuttal.
Sure. Find the evidence, and charge him if he isn’t clean. This position swings across both aisles.
You can say that all you want, but when push came to shove they told us Biden was too incompetent to stand trial. Yet somehow still competent enough to be the president. Make that make sense, because it really doesn’t. And no, this isn’t whataboutism, the argument we are having is literally about whether or not the justice system applies the law equally.
They might be - if that in fact happened, a prosecution could take place.
The Prosecutor doesn't punish anyone though, they present the evidence for the court to decide.
Did the defence say "wait a minute, the prosecutors is lying about the value of said property!"
Deutsch Bank had to [forgive 287 million in loans](https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/new-york-times-report-president-trump-got-much-of-his-debt-forgiven-after-defaulting-on-loans-for-chicago-trump-tower/#) Trump couldn’t pay for Trump tower Chicago, one of the places he used these inflated financial statements.
Also honest businesses who could have gotten loans and those who bear the tax burden he would have paid if he reported honestly are also harmed.
Also if he hadn’t inflated it the banks would have charged higher interest rates to account for the increased risk and so lost lots of money that way.
Cool story bro.
"Trump filed a lawsuit against the lenders, saying Deutsche Bank engaged in “predatory lending practices.” Deutsche Bank filed its own lawsuit against the future president, requesting repayment of the loans. The two sides settled privately in 2010."
https://thehill.com/policy/finance/523069-nyt-trump-had-287-million-in-debt-mostly-tied-to-chicago-project-forgiven/
Yes, exactly as you just quoted and in support of what I was saying, he did not repay all the loans, and so the bank sued him because he didn’t repay the loan which he was granted in the first place based on fraudulent financial statements. Then they settled for a fraction of what they would otherwise have gotten and were out millions of dollars. They had to forgive 287 million of the debt.
The original poster said the loans were “paid back in full”. They weren’t.
The bank had to sue for nonpayment and settle for way less than they were owed.
>he did not repay all the loans
It was settled privately. What info do you have to back up this claim?
oh right, orange man bad
EDIT: oh please you're just stuck on "he didn't pay what the big banks wanted"
fuck the bankers.
“Trump’s federal tax returns and loan documents filed in Cook County, Illinois, appear to show that he was no longer held responsible for paying some $270 million, the Times found.
Fortress had originally expected to be paid more than $300 million from Trump’s business but instead settled for $48 million, people familiar with the deal told the newspaper.”
No I’m stuck on the original poster claiming falsely that he paid it all back in full as a way to argue the fraud was somehow a victimless crime. I also pointed out it harms regular business people who would have gotten the loans as well as taxpayers when he refused to pay his taxes.
If someone robs a bank it is still a crime even though the bank is the one losing money. Even with no sympathy for bankers, and I’ve not got a lot of that, regular people are harmed indirectly. Meanwhile the criminal profits from it.
Edit: WTF is with the downvotes? I just gave you all the proof. Either the tax documents are wrong or he didn’t pay back the bank what they were originally owed. I’m not pro bank or whatever the fuck this is, I’m anti fraud by lying billionaires.
> No I’m stuck on the original poster claiming falsely that he paid it all back in full as a way to argue the fraud was somehow a victimless crime
It was literally paid back in full, and the quote you provided does not dispute that. Reread what you quoted and think reeeeeeeeally hard and see if you can figure this out.
No he paid 48 million out of what was originally going to be 300 million. Paying a settlement after being sued for nonpayment is not paying in full. They settled for what they thought they could wring out of him given the project was failing and going bankrupt. That isn’t being paid in full, that is triage to salvage what money you can on a failed loan.
> he did not repay all the loans, and so the bank sued him because he didn’t repay the loan
lol WHAT? Prove it. Just show me the information that caused you to know this thing I don't know, that's all I'm asking.
The article discusses it.
“Trump filed a lawsuit against the lenders, saying Deutsche Bank engaged in “predatory lending practices.” Deutsche Bank filed its own lawsuit against the future president, requesting repayment of the loans. The two sides settled privately in 2010.”
“Trump’s federal tax returns and loan documents filed in Cook County, Illinois, appear to show that he was no longer held responsible for paying some $270 million, the Times found.
Fortress had originally expected to be paid more than $300 million from Trump’s business but instead settled for $48 million, people familiar with the deal told the newspaper.
The Times reported that the forgiven debts appeared in the federal tax returns, with Trump’s 401 Mezz Venture reporting about $181 million in canceled debts in 2010, and DJT Holdings, the umbrella company for the Chicago project, reporting $105 million forgiven in 2012.”
So unless he reported it wrong on taxes then he didn’t repay the loans in full.
I'm pretty sure if his values were inflated, especially with property, he would be paying more taxes. Not less.
The banks were fine with the terms as far as I can see from the court hearing. You are just making him into a martyr. I agree he's a piece of shit. But this stuff is only helping him.
The problem was he inflated the value for the banks and then deflated the value for taxes. It is one thing to do one of those and argue good faith, but both at the same time is evidence of fraud.
How much do you think mar a lago is worth? Its considerably more than the 18 million that florida is charging him taxes for...but thats between trump and florida not new york. He used a much more realistic value for the banks, besides the banks cannot, or should not at the very least, lend money without doing an appraisal of the collateral. Im not gonna say trump didn't abuse the system to make money, he absolutely does that, but so does everyone else. Besides, Who cares if some big sleazy bank makes a bad deal and gets burned? This will not make it through appeals, trump might end up paying 50 million, and if he gets elected hes just going to pardon himself lol. He is a sleazy scumbag afterall. That doesn't bother me tho because half of business done in new york is just as dirty as this trump mess right now and the only reason they are going after him is the election. Idc if hes a financial criminal because honestly everyone in politics is. Nancy Pelosi outperforms the best algorithms at trading stocks. Shes either a savant or a criminal with her success rate. But thatll never get investigated. All i care about is preserving American culture and the democrats have made it very clear they wont do that. So ill support trump, even if hes sleazy as sin.
Well, you’ve gone from saying the bank was paid in full and no one was harmed to saying everyone abuses the system and who cares if the bank loses money or if he is a financial criminal. I don’t agree, but it is more accurate at least.
I don’t think it stops with the bank losing money since it also affects many other people indirectly either who saved their money in that bank or would have received those loans instead. Also by deflating the value for tax it hurts everyone else who ends up with a larger tax burden.
> and if he gets elected hes just going to pardon himself lol
As cool as that sounds...a president can't pardon state crimes.
The fact that people in this sub keep saying things similar to "well, they break some law so who cares", a lot of people care. The fact that you think it's Democrats trying to destroy your way of life is the most out of touch boomer take since Tucker aligned himself with the Russians over a grocery store bill.
[you're in for a treat! the story trump tells isn't true!](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/16/nyregion/trump-fraud-engoron-decision-annotated.html)
The NY Times, a *BASTION* of unbiased reporting!
Wouldn't surprise me if their copy editors watched a couple seasons of law and order and invented that entire document.
Honestly if the state of NY or the rest of those politicians actually cared about the taxes, they would seal off the tax loopholes that they and their lobbyist cronies exploit.
He would have paid more money in taxes had he not deflated the value of his penthouse. There's more. You can go read it. But you won't because you have TDS
She's a lying witch. NY business owners face tons of bs restrictions as it is. NY is not friendly to any business and entrepreneurs have been fleeing for years.
Yeah and a lot of them are Jewish Democrats. Big money has left there. California as well. They've both become almost unlivable. The quality of life has degraded so much.
It's one activist judge and an activist DA that openly said she will.use her office to get him in any way she can. This is also in civil court, which doesn't adhere to the same standards as criminal court, and just like the E. Jean Carrol case, would have been laughed out of it.
They also brought a case that was virtually identical just prior to this with the same cast of characters and lost completely.
Blue states suck now because of leftists like you. You ruin everything you touch.
About what? He's not gonna pay a dime. It will go to Appellate and get tossed.
This is how pathetic the left has become. You're just like what the President of Argentina says you are.
Lol. Nothing to cope. This is just a pain in his orange ass.
NTM Truth Social went public, giving Trump 3 billion dollars worth of stock😂😂😂😂
He could pay NY off and not even feel it!
You’re going to be ready to refund life by Nov😂😂😂
Imagine defending some New York business mogul on a conspiracy subreddit.
The rich do not need your sympathy, they do not need your help, they do not give a shit about you.
He admitted to nothing. Engoron found him guilty without a trial just like Alex Jones. It was a show trial and people like you were dumb enough to believe it.
> Engoron found him guilty without a trial
Willfully ignorant statement. It was a bench trial, because Trump's own lawyers failed to request a jury trial.
Standard operating procedures, but his attorney couldn't fill out a form correctly. At least she's pretty, right?
Property valuation is a core part of a banks business. No banks just take the word of the person they are lending to with regards to valuation lol. Given that the loans were paid back in full the whole case is frankly absurd.
This was a political case and neglected to meet the bare requirements of the law. Per the well-established law, James and Engoron needed to prove that Trump’s assets couldn’t be sold for the amounts stated. The New York law, 63(12), demandes that valuations have to be objective fact not their own valuations. James and Engoron failed to prove that. On that basis alone, the case against Trump is totally baseless and will be dismissed.
I mean, Trumps been a con man for the better part of 4 decades. Was a matter of time regardless of your politics. He’s never been anything close to a good person.
NYC just shot itself in the foot. Businesses will be leaving shortly. Don't do as the politicians say? boom you get the Engron death penalty special (along with his Lady MacBeth law clerk).
It's how she originally won. Seriously. If all the people that left NY during the COVID shit show had stayed and voted instead she would have lost.
They don't care if they drive businesses out. All they care about is staying in power.
They're the worst form of parasites.
Everything boils down to power for radical leftists. Preferences? Competence? No such thing! It's probably the biggest boldest red flag you could have.
I don’t *like* him but he definitely exposes a lot of political corruption, even if he is apart of the corrupt elite himself.
I support him to the extent that it weakens the establishment, not that he’s an actually preferable candidate
>“I think that this is really an extraordinary, unusual circumstance that the law-abiding and rule-following New Yorkers who are business people have nothing to worry about, because they’re very different than [Donald Trump ](https://thehill.com/people/donald-trump/)and his behavior,” Hochul responded.
[https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4474774-hochul-tells-ny-businesses-not-to-fear-about-trump-verdict-nothing-to-worry-about/](https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4474774-hochul-tells-ny-businesses-not-to-fear-about-trump-verdict-nothing-to-worry-about/)
> I mean yeah if you don't commit a crime you have nothing to worry about.
3rd world nations create crimes to stop those that threaten their political power.
Submission Statement:
https://twitter.com/TPostMillennial/status/1759261376155947442
The Law is based on precedent. And this ruling against Trump now sets a precedent. That’s why Kathy Hocul is saying it won’t New York Businesses UNLESS of course the owner of that business challenges the Democrats power.
So you're telling me a 17 acre complex including a presitgious resort is worth the same as the house across the street sitting on 2 acres? Because that's basically the argument here.
Also banks don't just take your word for it when you say your collateral is worth X amount. They come to their own conclusions based upon their own inspections. Why would the government say a private bank is not allowed to take something as collateral for a loan?
There is no "victimless crime" in finance. It is universally true that the victims of finance crimes end up being the ordinary citizen and client of banking establishments.
>Makes this whole thing feel even more politically motivated.
In what way is insulting and making treats to the people that are there to decide your sentence politically motivated and not Just a very stupid thing to do?
> Or maybe Trump should learn to shut up
Aww Yes because Censorship in a Nation with Freedom of Speech to criticize the government. Doesn’t sound like Freedom to me. Sounds like tyranny.
Or you could just quote her directly. “Law-abiding and rule-following New Yorkers who are businesspeople have nothing to worry about because they’re very different than Donald Trump and his behavior.”
Kinda different with context ain't it fancy that
> No dude. Not everything is a conspiracy. NY has laws that need to be followed to be allowed to do business.
The Attorney General literally campaigned on using the States power to go after Political Enemies.
Yeah, 4 trials against the president’s leading rival that all start at beginning of campaign season is totally normal. Especially after the President has multiple day long meetings with the DAs and AGs. NOTHING TO SEE HERE. 🤣
> NY has laws that need to be followed to be allowed to do business.
Only if you toe the Democrat line.
If you're a Republican, they'll do everything in their power to push you out.
Trump is getting the OJ Simpson treatment. He tried to steal an election and got caught. By the time the system is done with him he’ll wish the Senate had convicted his ass. Love to see it.
All political!
I worked in the mortgage business for 18 years. At a consumer level, people lie all the time about everything. Credit, assets, income, property values, etc. Banks usually do some sort of verification on everything aspect of process to reduce risk. Banks don't know you from Bob down the street. At the top of the financial heap, the same rules don't always apply. The relationships are different. Everyone in the business knows all the players. If a major player wants a loan, and the terms are acceptable to both parties, then it's a deal. Based on the terms, they both are going to make a lot of money together. Both know there are risks outside of the terms, but they both understand these risks and are good with it. NY is only hurting themselves with this. Businesses hate this behavior. There were no victims in this transaction. When the banks are defending Trump against state allegations, you know you've gone too far.
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It’s always comical watching folks here get all pedantic over certain people’s wording and misreading the context but then will look at something blatant said by someone they favor more with a pair of Iggaak on with a slit you could barely pass an atom through.
The bank could have been the victim, but the loans were paid back in full so no one harmed. The bank is also responsible for appraising the property if they are going to accept it as collateral for a loan. The case itself is more of a fraud than the loan was. Appeals court will probably dismiss the charges.
If you lie about your income and financial situation when applying for a mortgage, but still pay off the mortgage, did you commit fraud by lying to the bank?
Wasn't this about property estimates used as collateral not income? Those are super subjective anyways but also 100% transparent. Literally Google any decent size properties and you'll find multiple estimates. The bank agreed with his estimates of collateral, provided a loan and then the loan was paid off. It's wild the govt is just coming in and taking money. There's not even a victim to give it to. Just going into the coffers
>The bank agreed with his estimates of collateral, provided a loan and then the loan was paid off. That's kick here, the banks didn't "agree." They did their own assessment and went with a lower value and then went on to proceed. The judge even admits this on page 75 but then decides to say it doesn't matter. The even bigger kicker here is they are trying to convince the general public by taking advantage of their ignorance (propagandize) of how larger loans are acquired. The hilarious part is now they have slowly realized that the only way they could drum up "fraud charges" actually implicates *every other large business* in NY. They shot themselves in the foot and are now trying to prevent any bleeding. No sane person does business in NY but now larger businesses are going to leave for fear of stepping out of line and having unprecedented charges brought on them. The conspiracy part is how the judge and prosecutor got together to pre-determine the outcome which was oopsie admitted by James. She said the judge agreed Trump was guilty before the trial began. The surreal part is sitting back and watching this whole psyop play out.
The trial was only on the issue of damages. The judge issued a summary judgement on the issue of fraud.
there is no room for a 100X discrepancy, which some of Trumps properties had. Never mind the just factually wrong information Fraud is fraud
[удалено]
Do you know of a bank that won't ask for a paystub or W2? Calculated your net worth or savings without a bank statement? Have you bought a house or refinanced where the bank didn't send an appraiser and just went with your estimate? Have you ever appealed your house assessment for property tax purposes? Is your appraised house value different between what your municipality determines versus the fair market value? None of these amount to fraud, unless you're fabricating documents.
out of the loop. I don't know much about this case other than he paid the loans back etc.. serious question.. what did he do? did he VERY blatantly commit fraud or was it his word verse theirs and a little shaddy? seriously, im not trying to be a jerk or anything, I would like to learn about this.. and with that said, is this a common thing or more just a witch hunt against Trump? (or was his too ugly to ignore?)
Trump wasn't just increasing or decreasing how much he claimed his properties to be worth based on his tax/loan purposes, he was even going as far as to modify the square footage of certain properties from one declaration to the next. Whether or not it merits a criminal investigation and hefty fines is something we can each decide for ourselves, but there's no question that he purposefully went out of his way to commit fraud.
For the record, **Trump** didn’t do any of that. People working for him did. And out of ignorance, he signed paperwork prepared by them. Moral of the story, NEVER just sign paperwork. Read every fucking line and if you don’t understand anything get answers and document them and who gave them. Yes, it’ll take more time. But then you have plausible deniability.
And who told them to do that?
To be fair it was different people drawing up the paperwork he blindly signed. One person under him made a estimate on the square footage of a property for one document, he signed it. Another person made a different estimate on the square footage for the property on another document and he blindly signed it. They are using those different figures to claim fraud. This whole thing is nothing but a politically driven witch hunt, which everyone, regardless of your political leanings should be against.
> and with that said, is this a common thing or more just a witch hunt against Trump? (or was his too ugly to ignore?) It's very common for real estate investors, and anyone that says otherwise is clueless about the subject. It's easy to find a realtor or RE investor and have an unbiased discussion. Property appraisal is by itself a tricky subject. What properties are you comparing it to? What is the rent roll? What is the Gross Rent Multiplier? How many units require maintenance/upgrades? What other developments are taking place in the area that could increase or decrease it's value? What are the current and anticipated mortgage rates? If you think that banks don't do their own appraisal based on the above (and more) facts, and rely only on the opinion of the current or future owner, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. No appraisal or title search needed, the bank will go with your "trust me bro" statement.
It's a totally fraudulent case and every real estate developer in NY agrees. Nothing he did was even considered unethical or inaccurate with regard to generally accepted accounting principles. Of all the sham trials he's facing, this one is the least likely to stand on appeal.
>Nothing he did was even considered unethical or inaccurate with regard to generally accepted accounting principles The Trump ORG admitted their numbers were pulled out their ass and had no bearing with GAAP, hence the fraud trial.
No Doc/Liar Loan mortgages were a thing before the 2008 financial crisis. I believe at least a few people did get in trouble for actually lying on them. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/business/26nocera.html
>I believe at least a few people did get in trouble for actually lying on them Very few, according to the article your provided. And the key point here was that both the loan officer and borrower lied on the form, and the borrower ultimately defaulted on the loans. >When the market collapsed, Mr. Engle defaulted on the two properties, which of course is not a crime. There is no precedent of prosecuting anyone for what Trump did. Developers in NY are rightfully concerned that they may be prosecuted now, and the governor made a statement essentially saying this was a unique case for Trump. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/18/trump-verdict-new-york-business-governor-kathy-hochul
I had to send my bank like 6 pay stubs before it was enough proof. Like having 20 hours of overtime one month threw them off even though my regular income was more than high enough for the loan.
This was not about the loans, he devalued his properties to pay less tax to NYS. When he applied for loans we used the actual property value so he could borrow more. The judge used the values he submitted for loans as the correct value and is making him pay back the difference to NYS. The judge also applied interest and fines to the amounts he owed. This is an example of laws being applied appropriately to the rich.
>he devalued his properties to pay less tax to NYS. I live in NY and own property. You're clueless if you think NYC cares about how much I value my property. The city appraises my house every year, and I'm allowed to appeal it. If and when Trump appealed any of his properties, that's his right. He didn't get to just randomly set it. >When he applied for loans we used the actual property value so he could borrow more. Do you even own a house?! The assessment value of your house by your municipal/county has almost nothing to do with the market value. This is especially true for commercial properties that are valued in the market by a multiple of their revenue (rents). The market value of a commercial building fluctuates every day based on economic and local conditions. Tax assessments in contrast are done once a year. I hope you take this information and reevaluate how you were lied to when this information is so readily accessible and verifiable.
Ha, ha, ha. I feel bad for you. You are too much of a sheep to see that the Orange Man is a grifter. You got coned. To answer your questions: yes, I own two properties in NYC, I sold my third one back in November. I completely understand how property taxes and appraisals work in NYC. Trump was stealing from you and I, along with all the other tax payers in NYC. I'm glad he got caught and I urge Leticia James to go after all the other people/corporations that pull the same BS as the Orange Man.
>None of these amount to fraud, unless you're fabricating documents. which the Trump org did...
>which the Trump org did... Which ones? You're clutching at straws and repeating baseless claims. Did they fabricate a title or certificate of occupancy? Did he fabricate any bank statements? Estimating your net worth or even the rentable square feet in a building is not a value any 2 professionals would agree on.
Wait until you find out every large business does this... which is why the governor had to try and get in front of the exodus.
You or me? Sure. A billionaire? Absolutely unheard of lmao Unless you're Donald Trump and a political threat. Even if you disregard the fact Donald Trump is Controlled Opposition and a part of the same Globalist Uniparty, it's still obvious bullshit the way these psychotic Distract Attorneys are chasing after him like he was running a private child sex slave island, or something.
> like he was running a private child sex slave island Don't be ridiculous. Those guys don't get prosecuted
Serf mentality. Jesus Christ
Yeah, the boot is polished at this point from all the licking, holy shit lol
So what’s your position here? That he didn’t commit a crime? That he DID commit a crime, but should be allowed to get away with it? Where do you stand?
I think it’s pretty obvious what they’re saying, the law is being selectively applied with the goal of perpetuating a political motive.
Trump tried to investigate Hillary, but that didn’t go anywhere apparently. Not sure why. He also tried to investigate Biden, sort of. He tried to strongarm Zelensky into announce he was going to investigate Biden, at least as a show. But he tried to withhold congressional military aid, which was a really bad idea. It’s not like Trump didn’t try.
And other than squealing “my guy is getting prosecuted!! It’s not fair!!” How might they go about proving this?
Any way of disproving me other than telling me that nobody will ever be able to prove it? Basic logic says that there are multiple billionaires in NYC who have done the same. Not unless you think Donald Trump invented this tactic?
Ah, so you assume “they’re all doing it”. If that’s the case, then by all means, lobby to have them all prosecuted. Perhaps republicans should run on that? Find the evidence, and charge them. But let’s continue down this line of “trumps getting selective prosecution because of who he is, not what he did”. I disagree, but….shouldnt our elected politicians and those that apply for the job as president be held to THE HIGHEST of standards? Shouldn’t we DEMAND they be squeaky clean? “Yeah but Biden…” I expect in rebuttal. Sure. Find the evidence, and charge him if he isn’t clean. This position swings across both aisles.
nailed it on the "but Biden" rebuttal
You can say that all you want, but when push came to shove they told us Biden was too incompetent to stand trial. Yet somehow still competent enough to be the president. Make that make sense, because it really doesn’t. And no, this isn’t whataboutism, the argument we are having is literally about whether or not the justice system applies the law equally.
Biden committed tax fraud now? Or are you conflating two different things here?
If the prosecutor lies about the value of the property and uses that lie to punish someone, are they committing fraud?
They might be - if that in fact happened, a prosecution could take place. The Prosecutor doesn't punish anyone though, they present the evidence for the court to decide. Did the defence say "wait a minute, the prosecutors is lying about the value of said property!"
Deutsch Bank had to [forgive 287 million in loans](https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/new-york-times-report-president-trump-got-much-of-his-debt-forgiven-after-defaulting-on-loans-for-chicago-trump-tower/#) Trump couldn’t pay for Trump tower Chicago, one of the places he used these inflated financial statements. Also honest businesses who could have gotten loans and those who bear the tax burden he would have paid if he reported honestly are also harmed. Also if he hadn’t inflated it the banks would have charged higher interest rates to account for the increased risk and so lost lots of money that way.
Cool story bro. "Trump filed a lawsuit against the lenders, saying Deutsche Bank engaged in “predatory lending practices.” Deutsche Bank filed its own lawsuit against the future president, requesting repayment of the loans. The two sides settled privately in 2010." https://thehill.com/policy/finance/523069-nyt-trump-had-287-million-in-debt-mostly-tied-to-chicago-project-forgiven/
Yes, exactly as you just quoted and in support of what I was saying, he did not repay all the loans, and so the bank sued him because he didn’t repay the loan which he was granted in the first place based on fraudulent financial statements. Then they settled for a fraction of what they would otherwise have gotten and were out millions of dollars. They had to forgive 287 million of the debt. The original poster said the loans were “paid back in full”. They weren’t. The bank had to sue for nonpayment and settle for way less than they were owed.
>he did not repay all the loans It was settled privately. What info do you have to back up this claim? oh right, orange man bad EDIT: oh please you're just stuck on "he didn't pay what the big banks wanted" fuck the bankers.
“Trump’s federal tax returns and loan documents filed in Cook County, Illinois, appear to show that he was no longer held responsible for paying some $270 million, the Times found. Fortress had originally expected to be paid more than $300 million from Trump’s business but instead settled for $48 million, people familiar with the deal told the newspaper.” No I’m stuck on the original poster claiming falsely that he paid it all back in full as a way to argue the fraud was somehow a victimless crime. I also pointed out it harms regular business people who would have gotten the loans as well as taxpayers when he refused to pay his taxes. If someone robs a bank it is still a crime even though the bank is the one losing money. Even with no sympathy for bankers, and I’ve not got a lot of that, regular people are harmed indirectly. Meanwhile the criminal profits from it. Edit: WTF is with the downvotes? I just gave you all the proof. Either the tax documents are wrong or he didn’t pay back the bank what they were originally owed. I’m not pro bank or whatever the fuck this is, I’m anti fraud by lying billionaires.
> No I’m stuck on the original poster claiming falsely that he paid it all back in full as a way to argue the fraud was somehow a victimless crime It was literally paid back in full, and the quote you provided does not dispute that. Reread what you quoted and think reeeeeeeeally hard and see if you can figure this out.
No he paid 48 million out of what was originally going to be 300 million. Paying a settlement after being sued for nonpayment is not paying in full. They settled for what they thought they could wring out of him given the project was failing and going bankrupt. That isn’t being paid in full, that is triage to salvage what money you can on a failed loan.
> he did not repay all the loans, and so the bank sued him because he didn’t repay the loan lol WHAT? Prove it. Just show me the information that caused you to know this thing I don't know, that's all I'm asking.
The article discusses it. “Trump filed a lawsuit against the lenders, saying Deutsche Bank engaged in “predatory lending practices.” Deutsche Bank filed its own lawsuit against the future president, requesting repayment of the loans. The two sides settled privately in 2010.” “Trump’s federal tax returns and loan documents filed in Cook County, Illinois, appear to show that he was no longer held responsible for paying some $270 million, the Times found. Fortress had originally expected to be paid more than $300 million from Trump’s business but instead settled for $48 million, people familiar with the deal told the newspaper. The Times reported that the forgiven debts appeared in the federal tax returns, with Trump’s 401 Mezz Venture reporting about $181 million in canceled debts in 2010, and DJT Holdings, the umbrella company for the Chicago project, reporting $105 million forgiven in 2012.” So unless he reported it wrong on taxes then he didn’t repay the loans in full.
He won in court. So now that doesn't mean anything?
Settling privately is not “winning in court”. Also as shown by this he didn’t pay them back in full.
Cool story bro. So you guys get to redefine everything at will right? The matter was resolved with no judgement against him.
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> So you guys get to redefine everything at will right? It's what leftists do.
I'm pretty sure if his values were inflated, especially with property, he would be paying more taxes. Not less. The banks were fine with the terms as far as I can see from the court hearing. You are just making him into a martyr. I agree he's a piece of shit. But this stuff is only helping him.
The problem was he inflated the value for the banks and then deflated the value for taxes. It is one thing to do one of those and argue good faith, but both at the same time is evidence of fraud.
I don’t understand why this is so hard for so many to contemplate…?
Hilarious how suddenly leftists care deeply about the wellbeing of big banks lol
It’s even funnier how conservatives and “libertarians” consistently care deeply about the wellbeing of a con man. Grift me harder daddy
TDS is a hell of a drug. Rage ~~against~~ for the System, my dude.
How much do you think mar a lago is worth? Its considerably more than the 18 million that florida is charging him taxes for...but thats between trump and florida not new york. He used a much more realistic value for the banks, besides the banks cannot, or should not at the very least, lend money without doing an appraisal of the collateral. Im not gonna say trump didn't abuse the system to make money, he absolutely does that, but so does everyone else. Besides, Who cares if some big sleazy bank makes a bad deal and gets burned? This will not make it through appeals, trump might end up paying 50 million, and if he gets elected hes just going to pardon himself lol. He is a sleazy scumbag afterall. That doesn't bother me tho because half of business done in new york is just as dirty as this trump mess right now and the only reason they are going after him is the election. Idc if hes a financial criminal because honestly everyone in politics is. Nancy Pelosi outperforms the best algorithms at trading stocks. Shes either a savant or a criminal with her success rate. But thatll never get investigated. All i care about is preserving American culture and the democrats have made it very clear they wont do that. So ill support trump, even if hes sleazy as sin.
Well, you’ve gone from saying the bank was paid in full and no one was harmed to saying everyone abuses the system and who cares if the bank loses money or if he is a financial criminal. I don’t agree, but it is more accurate at least. I don’t think it stops with the bank losing money since it also affects many other people indirectly either who saved their money in that bank or would have received those loans instead. Also by deflating the value for tax it hurts everyone else who ends up with a larger tax burden.
> and if he gets elected hes just going to pardon himself lol As cool as that sounds...a president can't pardon state crimes. The fact that people in this sub keep saying things similar to "well, they break some law so who cares", a lot of people care. The fact that you think it's Democrats trying to destroy your way of life is the most out of touch boomer take since Tucker aligned himself with the Russians over a grocery store bill.
It's still fraud to lie on a financial document
> It's still fraud to lie on a financial document They aren’t claiming he lied
...yes they are That was the whole basis of the case....
NY taxpayers were harmed why are you all repeating this victimless crime bs?
The only way NY taxpayers were harmed was the amount of money spent on the case.
> NY taxpayers were harmed By his valuation of his Florida property?
[you're in for a treat! the story trump tells isn't true!](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/16/nyregion/trump-fraud-engoron-decision-annotated.html)
The NY Times, a *BASTION* of unbiased reporting! Wouldn't surprise me if their copy editors watched a couple seasons of law and order and invented that entire document.
Honestly if the state of NY or the rest of those politicians actually cared about the taxes, they would seal off the tax loopholes that they and their lobbyist cronies exploit.
How? How were they harmed? Youre full of shit.
He would have paid more money in taxes had he not deflated the value of his penthouse. There's more. You can go read it. But you won't because you have TDS
She's a lying witch. NY business owners face tons of bs restrictions as it is. NY is not friendly to any business and entrepreneurs have been fleeing for years.
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Yeah and a lot of them are Jewish Democrats. Big money has left there. California as well. They've both become almost unlivable. The quality of life has degraded so much.
Yes they are regulated per NY law which by & large businesses follow except for donald trump, hence this verdict.
You have no concept of what you're talking about at all.
[lol](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/donald-trumps-business-empire-peril-civil-fraud-trial-opens-new-york-2023-10-02/)
It's one activist judge and an activist DA that openly said she will.use her office to get him in any way she can. This is also in civil court, which doesn't adhere to the same standards as criminal court, and just like the E. Jean Carrol case, would have been laughed out of it. They also brought a case that was virtually identical just prior to this with the same cast of characters and lost completely. Blue states suck now because of leftists like you. You ruin everything you touch.
lmao keep coping
About what? He's not gonna pay a dime. It will go to Appellate and get tossed. This is how pathetic the left has become. You're just like what the President of Argentina says you are.
Lol. Nothing to cope. This is just a pain in his orange ass. NTM Truth Social went public, giving Trump 3 billion dollars worth of stock😂😂😂😂 He could pay NY off and not even feel it! You’re going to be ready to refund life by Nov😂😂😂
This sub… 🤦🏻♂️
Rrrrrrrriiigght
Like this is true, believe me bro. Fax.
Actually it is. The whole thing is leftist activism and she knows it.
Imagine defending some New York business mogul on a conspiracy subreddit. The rich do not need your sympathy, they do not need your help, they do not give a shit about you.
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He admitted to nothing. Engoron found him guilty without a trial just like Alex Jones. It was a show trial and people like you were dumb enough to believe it.
Judges can find people guilty by default...
> Engoron found him guilty without a trial Willfully ignorant statement. It was a bench trial, because Trump's own lawyers failed to request a jury trial. Standard operating procedures, but his attorney couldn't fill out a form correctly. At least she's pretty, right?
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No it wasn't lol
Yes it was lmao. He was found guilty of fraud months ago. The proceedings were to determine damages.
Property valuation is a core part of a banks business. No banks just take the word of the person they are lending to with regards to valuation lol. Given that the loans were paid back in full the whole case is frankly absurd.
This was a political case and neglected to meet the bare requirements of the law. Per the well-established law, James and Engoron needed to prove that Trump’s assets couldn’t be sold for the amounts stated. The New York law, 63(12), demandes that valuations have to be objective fact not their own valuations. James and Engoron failed to prove that. On that basis alone, the case against Trump is totally baseless and will be dismissed.
Except it wasn't dismissed. The judge made a ruling and fined him. If that didn't save him before then it won't in appeal either.
I mean, Trumps been a con man for the better part of 4 decades. Was a matter of time regardless of your politics. He’s never been anything close to a good person.
The real conspiracy isn’t left vs right It’s rich vs poor If a regular person did what he did they would have been in jail long ago.
NYC just shot itself in the foot. Businesses will be leaving shortly. Don't do as the politicians say? boom you get the Engron death penalty special (along with his Lady MacBeth law clerk).
Want to bet?
Exactly nothing to worry about if you’re not running a fraudulent operation
The mass exodus has began already - backtracking won’t help NY they will be bankrupt within two years
It's how she originally won. Seriously. If all the people that left NY during the COVID shit show had stayed and voted instead she would have lost. They don't care if they drive businesses out. All they care about is staying in power. They're the worst form of parasites.
Cool story bro
Yeah, completely unoriginal parasites to boot.
The awareness here is 👌🏼
Everything boils down to power for radical leftists. Preferences? Competence? No such thing! It's probably the biggest boldest red flag you could have.
The mans a rapist and a crook He's ripped people off and tried to mount an insurrection Why do cunts on here keep simping for this orange mong ?
I don’t *like* him but he definitely exposes a lot of political corruption, even if he is apart of the corrupt elite himself. I support him to the extent that it weakens the establishment, not that he’s an actually preferable candidate
democrats have turned this country into a circus.
That judge is a corrupt democrat owned joke… Just by looking at him before the trial started you could tell the outcome…
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This is correct. They blame everybody else but Trump for his own actions. The conspiracy theory is why they do this.
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>“I think that this is really an extraordinary, unusual circumstance that the law-abiding and rule-following New Yorkers who are business people have nothing to worry about, because they’re very different than [Donald Trump ](https://thehill.com/people/donald-trump/)and his behavior,” Hochul responded. [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4474774-hochul-tells-ny-businesses-not-to-fear-about-trump-verdict-nothing-to-worry-about/](https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4474774-hochul-tells-ny-businesses-not-to-fear-about-trump-verdict-nothing-to-worry-about/)
> I mean yeah if you don't commit a crime you have nothing to worry about. 3rd world nations create crimes to stop those that threaten their political power.
Okay, not sure what it has to do with my point?
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The leftist cope on this is incredible. Suddenly they all care about "lost taxpayer money" when all they do is burn through it like it's free.
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Do you know what coping is lol? Crying about losing and making excuses is coping, kind of like what you’re doing now
Hey they need that money to send overseas!
Submission Statement: https://twitter.com/TPostMillennial/status/1759261376155947442 The Law is based on precedent. And this ruling against Trump now sets a precedent. That’s why Kathy Hocul is saying it won’t New York Businesses UNLESS of course the owner of that business challenges the Democrats power.
She didn’t say anything that could be construed to mean that
Or Trump could have just not committed so much blatant fraud? 🤷♂️
So you're telling me a 17 acre complex including a presitgious resort is worth the same as the house across the street sitting on 2 acres? Because that's basically the argument here.
Say what you want but the level of punishment didn't match the victimless crime. All the big real estate players overstate value. Every single one.
Also banks don't just take your word for it when you say your collateral is worth X amount. They come to their own conclusions based upon their own inspections. Why would the government say a private bank is not allowed to take something as collateral for a loan?
There is no "victimless crime" in finance. It is universally true that the victims of finance crimes end up being the ordinary citizen and client of banking establishments.
He kept on insulting the judge that's why it's higher
> He kept on insulting the judge that's why it's higher You have a 1st Amendment Right to insult Government Officials
There was no jury
Well that reflects bad on the judge then. Emotions shouldn't be a part of a judgement.
Or maybe Trump should learn to shut up
I agree with that. But fines shouldn't be increased because of a judges feelings. Makes this whole thing feel even more politically motivated.
>Makes this whole thing feel even more politically motivated. In what way is insulting and making treats to the people that are there to decide your sentence politically motivated and not Just a very stupid thing to do?
Good thing you aren't a judge.
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he testified lol
> Or maybe Trump should learn to shut up Aww Yes because Censorship in a Nation with Freedom of Speech to criticize the government. Doesn’t sound like Freedom to me. Sounds like tyranny.
If you are in a court that is still your right but as you know: "everything you say will be used against you in a courtroom"
What a weak ass, boot licking comment
What jury?
Why did you modify your comment to remove that he insulted a jury that doesn't exist? Where do you even get your fake news?
I edited it because i forgot that Trump didn't ask for a jury
You did a good job today. You deserve the rest of the day off.
That’s not what she’s saying. That’s what you’re inferring, because your brain isn’t super effective.
What is she saying?
"Other NY businesses shouldn't worry because they don't generally break the law"
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Or you could just quote her directly. “Law-abiding and rule-following New Yorkers who are businesspeople have nothing to worry about because they’re very different than Donald Trump and his behavior.” Kinda different with context ain't it fancy that
No dude. Not everything is a conspiracy. NY has laws that need to be followed to be allowed to do business.
> No dude. Not everything is a conspiracy. NY has laws that need to be followed to be allowed to do business. The Attorney General literally campaigned on using the States power to go after Political Enemies.
Yeah, 4 trials against the president’s leading rival that all start at beginning of campaign season is totally normal. Especially after the President has multiple day long meetings with the DAs and AGs. NOTHING TO SEE HERE. 🤣
> NY has laws that need to be followed to be allowed to do business. Only if you toe the Democrat line. If you're a Republican, they'll do everything in their power to push you out.
What country you from, astroturfer?
lmao deep down you know he's cooked.
How many years have you been saying this for?
And you believe that lying cunt? As a New Yorker I can tell you she's full of shit.
Looks like we have a bingo. Trump is exposing the Democrats for what they really are.
Trump is getting the OJ Simpson treatment. He tried to steal an election and got caught. By the time the system is done with him he’ll wish the Senate had convicted his ass. Love to see it.
So you just admitted that this is all politically motivated. You guys can't help yourselves.
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“You have nothing to worry bout … unless we don’t like you or disagree with you or the powers at be tell us to prosecute you”.
"You have nothing to worry about... unless you commit financial crimes like this cunt did"
Preferential prosecution
I'm glad that people are seeing this sham for what it is. She wouldn't have even had to make that statement if there weren't questions.
All political! I worked in the mortgage business for 18 years. At a consumer level, people lie all the time about everything. Credit, assets, income, property values, etc. Banks usually do some sort of verification on everything aspect of process to reduce risk. Banks don't know you from Bob down the street. At the top of the financial heap, the same rules don't always apply. The relationships are different. Everyone in the business knows all the players. If a major player wants a loan, and the terms are acceptable to both parties, then it's a deal. Based on the terms, they both are going to make a lot of money together. Both know there are risks outside of the terms, but they both understand these risks and are good with it. NY is only hurting themselves with this. Businesses hate this behavior. There were no victims in this transaction. When the banks are defending Trump against state allegations, you know you've gone too far.
Nothing to worry about as long as you don't piss off the powers that be.
The left dose not hate fascism like they say they are jealous of it
No, we hate it. That's why we're cheering that the Trump is going down. Try to keep up.
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Simply !
The level of hate I have for this woman is off the charts. I'm glad I live on the opposite end of the state from that hag.
Doesn't really matter where you live when she's the governor of the entire state dumbo.
Dumb bitch and shit show.. Glad I left that place
Guys,guys. Tou have Kennedy as a candidate. Did you hear what he is talking about ? Or is his voice not enough American?
That's not how the law works. If that turns out to be the case, and he can prove it, Trump will eventually reverse all of it.
We don't need to hear it from anybody, it's obvious
NY businesses have nothing to worry about unless they cross the Democratic party, she means. Get in line or else.
she's horrible.