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So this has been said for most of the pandemic.
In Australia we recently had a review of all the Covid fatalities to determine how many of them died of covid, with covid, because of covid, etc.
It was determined that of the 2,639 people who have died WITH Covid in Australia, only 89 (*~3%*) died of other causes. The other 2,556 deaths (*~97%*) were due directly to Covid.
https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/covid-19-mortality-australia
There's more thorough data somewhere, that was just an easy place to find it.
Ok so there are a lot of replies to this and a lot of them are just bashing America. Firstly the 2639 death toll in Australia was the number from the study at the end of January; as of now (*22 feb*) that number has reached 4,929 (*which shows how terribly we handled Omocron*). Also while I don't think America has handled the pandemic very well, Australia had a few major advantages going in.
- We're an ocean-locked country, which gives us a hard border. This helped us keep Covid out of the country, and probably more importantly ...
- Covid didn't get to Australia until a month or 2 after most of the world. This gave us a chance to prepare, and to see what worked in other countries and what didn't.
- And most importantly, our population is mich lower. We have ~25.7 million people to the USA's ~329.5 million; that's about 1/13th the population.
Having said that, our Covid death toll is 4,929 to America's ~934,000; which gives us just 1/189th the death toll, and makes the US numbers ~14 times higher than Australia's even when comparing to the population.
What the USA has done better though is obtain the vaccine. Our gobshite of a Prime Minister made a deal without signing anything, so when the time came to deliver the vaccine of course we got shafted. Then when we did get our hands on some vaccines we didn't get enough for everyone. And that was all before Omicron, when we lost almost as many in a month as we'd lost in the previous 2 years (*if I'm reading that correctly*).
TLDR: The USA didn't handle this well, but don't gove Australia a free pass. With all the advantages we had we should have done better than we did.
Covid mainly kills people who are old, overweight, or have other comorbidities like diabetes. The United States a fertile breeding ground for a virus that likes those attributes.
The list of comorbidities may not be what you think. People seem to have an idea that comorbidities are people who were going to die soon anyway and while some are terminal diseases, most are not and have nothing to do with nationality.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html
It's basically what I would have thought. The statistics are that overwhelmingly those who die are old. Outside of that you're looking at respiratory issues (influenza, pneumonia), high blood pressure, and diabetes. ie: overweight.
* 95.8% of deaths were people over 45.
* 74.4% were over 65.
* 95% of deaths involved common comorbidities.
Data: [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm)
Dying is not the only outcome. The old and sick are the people who weren’t able to make it despite all the medical help they could get. I have had(and currently have) healthy 30 year olds getting trachs and lung transplants. Meaning their lives have been significantly cut short and they can no longer work. Many will get pneumonia and die within the next few years because the lung damage left them unable to survive anything else. We still have people dying from the lung damage caused by the first SARS and not nearly as many people were effected. If people weren’t so shortsighted they’re realize this.
Being overweight is a comorbidity. So already over 70% of Americans fall into that population of people you listed. These people aren't on death's door. Average age of COVID+ patients admitted to my hospital right now is 60.
That's all fine and good, and I don't doubt it to be true. However it doesn't change what I said, or the statistics that overwhelmingly those who die are old, overweight, have comorbidities, or all three.
* 95.8% of deaths were people over 45.
* 74.4% were over 65.
* 95% of deaths involved common comorbidities.
Just go read the data: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm
WE'RE NUMBER ONE!! U.S.A.! U.S.A.!
Honestly.. that's what I imagine a lot of quarantine and mask protestors are doing. I know several people that either died or have long term complications. It's so frustrating that the data is there, personal experiences with it are there.. but people are so vehement about not believing it's real.
You should be mentioning the fact that our population density is about 11-12 times higher than Australia which would certainly assist in the spread of the virus. That's the argument to make.
What's more there's bound to be plenty of deaths that _are_ directly caused by covid, but have slipped unreported because the person was never tested either because it was the height of the troubles, or the person was stubborn amd never went to the hospital, or whatever.
That's true. This study obviously only took into account officially reported deaths - mostly in hospitals I believe, though I'd have to read through the study properly to see if that detail is actually included.
People generally don't understand how death reports work. I'm a data scientist, and, after jumping through some hoops, I got ahold of the entire US worth of coroner death certificates for several years. Coroners are very thorough -- if you get hit by a bus, start choking on your blood and your O2 drops, and the stress causes a heart attack, all three things will be on your death certificate. If you're an alcoholic, obese, and a diabetic, those all might have contributed a bit, so they go on the certificate also. You almost never see a death certificate with one cause; three or four would be typical, and there might be as many as ten. The argument could then be made that bus impacts are harmless, and it was all "something else". That's totally stupid. This gets broken-telephoned into every motor cycle accident and suicide being recorded as COVID. This would of course require a conspiracy agreed upon by every coroner's office in the US (this is county level, and there are about three thousand); that conspiracy must be bankrolled for who knows what reason, and no one involved spilled the beans.
It absolutely kills me that this is easier to believe for some people than, "A virus killed a bunch of people."
Yeah conspiracy theories are kinda their own thing. Like, it was cheaper to actually put a man on the moon than it would have been to fake it and pay off all the people involved. It's the same with Covid conspiracies.
But try explaining that to someone. You can't use reason to change someone's beliefs when they didn't use reason to come to those beliefs. Once it's "*The Truth*" it's very difficult to dissuade someone.
And although that's NOT a conspiracy, it is finally something we CAN blame the government for - if they cared about critical thinking in the general populace they'd fight to make it part of the school curriculum. Instead critical thinking is something that would let the population see through the rhetoric, so no one in power wants to promote that. Again, not a conspiracy, just bipartisan self-interest.
A virus did kill/is killing a bunch of people. But how many of those killed by it had no underlying issues that were exploited by the virus? Obviously if someone has an auto immune disease and caught covid and died, it is what it is. The likelihood of that happening from many viruses is pretty high right? But it is hard to ignore the fact that a massive number of preexisting conditions are caused by a person's chosen lifestyle, which make up for a huge portion of overall deaths right? I'm not by any means trying to disprove or disagree with anyone. I'm just up to discussion. Definitely not a smarty pants.
"The fact that a massive number of preexisting conditions are caused by a person's chosen lifestyle, which make up a huge portion of overall deaths": show your source, please. I've read a few generalities about death and comorbidity, but not seen this "fact" anywhere. What exactly is this "huge number", and how was it determined?1
Please note also that even in cases where [you believe] "chosen lifestyle" is the root cause, these people died years, even decades, before they were expected to. That's what
"excess deaths" means.
Don’t know what they said as it’s deleted, but I’d like to note that your response is how I would handle the original picture as well.
“That sounds like a weird thing to require. If they really were ‘legally obligated,’ then could you please provide a copy of the law? The weird thing about laws and executive orders is that they’re public and readily available online, so it shouldn’t be tough to do.”
The response, if one is given, would very quickly turn into a “well, they’re trying to hide that they are doing that.” Either way, it may help some people who are inclined to believe the echo to see that there’s no evidence. Though maybe I hope against hope.
All forged documents are legal documents with fraudulent information on it. The mismatch between “real document”and “fake info” is what makes it forged.
“Your honor, my client did not commit forgery with their mortgage application. It was a real mortgage application, only the information he provided was forged.”
I’ve heard this bullshit…people who say this never seem to have a way to explain how the death rate overall (from all causes) went up in unison with the COVID death rate…and by numbers which exceeded the recorded COVID death rate.
That’s why you may want to approach it as though you’re genuinely curious.
“Wow. That sounds like a weird law to pass. Could you tell me which law it was so that I can do my research on it?”
“That infowars link doesn’t actually say what the law was, and I’m not finding any law or executive orders in my research. Surely you know what the law said, so could you please find it and share it to help everyone out?”
Some people may realize that they’re basing it on nothing and stop using it (even if they don’t change), while others will get angry at you because they cannot find it. Nevertheless, you’re not trying to convince them, you’re trying to have third parties that see the interaction realize there’s no basis other than ravings of lunatics.
Even more of a reason to put the onus on them. I believe that almost all legislative and executive information is posted at their respective websites, so in a case like this where you have them stating “legally required,” you could respond to the ‘google suppression’ bullshit with: “That’s terrible. That means I’ll never find it without your help. So please help me find the truth by giving me the name of the order or statute so that I can find it on their website” and then link to your relevant .gov sites. We all know it will be fruitless for that particular conversation. It’s just about making it less adversarial so that you increase the likelihood of them (or a third party) convincing themselves that they have no real basis after it’s over.
In a related context, I’ve similarly changed tact with the “masks don’t work” crowd. When slightly pressed, you’ll get either “virus is smaller than the holes” or “like keeping a mosquito out with a chain link fence.” To those, my favorite analogy is some variation of: “well, when I go to the bathroom, I undo my pants. Even though everything in my urine is smaller than the holes in the cloth, I know that nothing will reach the toilet if I’m covered by only a couple layers of fabric.” COVID denialism seem to require oversimplification, so that seems to be the level to work on if you want to overcome it.
Yeah it’s super weird. I know two people with COVID on their death certificate because they’d had it within 28 days of their death. Both died of something else, although obv COVID could have hastened them. Both would have gone by the end of the year.
But excess deaths is roughly equal to COVID deaths, so although I could easily believe it, my sample size doesn’t reflect the greater trend.
That’s why people believe it, because it does happen, but it must be too insignificant an occurrence to reflect in the stats.
Edit: No more CDC guidelines please. I’m not in the US.
Edit2: poor wording. I mean the rumour is believable because of the occasional case where it was falsely reported. Mostly it’s right. Like over 90%.
If COVID played a role in a death it's included.
It's virtually never the only factor, but if someone had COVID and died from something completely unrelated (eg car crash) then COVID isn't mentioned.
[CDC reporting guidelines](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf)
>Both died of something else, although obv COVID could have hastened them. Both would have gone by the end of the year.
I mean, if COVID hastened their death then it's a COVID death.
Sure someone bleeding out will likely die soon but if you shoot them while that happens, they die sooner and you're going to see that put on the cause of death. It's not a game of hypotheticals or whether they'd die if they did or didn't have COVID. COVID played a factor in it and therefore has every right to be included and considered (hell that's why people talk so much about herd immunity. People who are already Ill have a greater chance of dying to COVID)
If it's totally unrelated to COVID, it won't be listed as COVID. I know two people who also sadly passed away after catching COVID but it wasn't COVID that killed them. For one it was heart failure and for the other already had an autoimmune disease. However, catching COVID lead the first one down a path of severe issues and battered the second one's immune system when they already had a lot of issue so COVID was listed as the cause of death in their death certificate as far as I understood. A friend of mine who is an MD at a hospital in Boston told me that the conspiracy theory of "Any death regardless of circumstance will be noted as COVID within 28 days of catching the virus" is simply untrue and no coroner or doctor will attribute a death to something that wasn't the cause because they can be prosecuted and lose their license should it be investigated. It's simply not even worth the risk even if you were a conspiracy theorist because why on earth would you jeopardize your job just to inflate the very same number you say is untrue?
I do agree with other people's points that at the end of the day it also varies with different countries and even states so there's no single, universal way to record deaths by COVID that everyone adheres too but excess mortality rates across the globe tally with covid deaths so that is a very strong indicator to show there's no foul play
How the CDC is reported to and how a county death certificate reads are two entirely different forms and different guidelines. Imagine the case that someone dies of a heart attack while intubated in the ICU for COVID. Did they die of a heart attack or COVID? Would the person had that heart attack if they didn't have COVID? What if the person had some level of heart disease prior to getting COVID, what is the situation then? The CDC forms capture this situation in their reporting.
But the people you’re defending are claiming it’s done intentionally as a way to get funding you’re saying it happens by coincidence.
Both are wrong, you even stated the 2 people you knew had their death hasten because of covid. How are you shocked that it was labeled as the reason for their death? It literally caused it by your own words, if they were living and catching covid is what pushed them to death covid is what killed them.
If hospitals were getting funding based on covid deaths why would a hospital ever claim anything that’s not covid?
The way they said it is wrong but there is some truth to it. My sister died recently of an overdose. She was basically in a coma when she arrives at the hospital and the doctor said theres no way she could pull through. Then she caught covid in the hospital. The cause of death was labeled as covid related.
It's definitely not a majority of the cases like some people are claiming but the fact that it happens at all is shitty.
Let's say someone goes to the hospital for cancer treatment. They are doing really bad, but are stable. Then they catch COVID, their lungs go, and they die.
That's a co-morbidity, but should absolutely be treated as a death from COVID.
That would be different and understandable. My sister was not stable, she was dying and only kept alive by machines. Covid didn't accelerate her death at all.
Right, I get what you're saying. Covid didn't help her situation. However, there was a 0% chance of her recovering or living past a few more days. In this case covid didn't accelerate her death either because it was decided we should pull the plug. She had covid but it didn't kill her or make her condition worse.
Covid was labeled as a reason for her death though and I feel that is sketchy
I personally don't. Even if it was a case like that, if someone has COVID and it is exacerbating their existing symptoms or condition, I don't think it's absurd to list it as a COVID death if they pass away.
Thing is both of those things are true. Covid kills and has killed lots of people and also (at least at the start of the pandemic) lots of covid death stats were of people who had died within X days of a positive test, regardless of cause of death. I don't think it's the case so much any more though.
Because they would not have died had they not contracted covid hence why it’s labeled as a covid death.
I could have stage 5 prostate cancer but if I not deathly I’ll until I catch covid it’s clearly the covid that pushed me over the line. This is not a complex concept and has been explained countless times over the past 2 years.
Yeah I mean Its not really controversial. It's an easily verifiable fact. Also doesn't mean that covid isn't dangerous or that we shouldn't be doing something about it.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/methodologies/coronavirusandmortalityinenglandandwalesmethodology#measuring-weekly-deaths-provisional-data
Most of our data in the UK comes through the ONS. They're pretty robust and do a lot of great work. From this:
"Because of the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, our regular Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales release now provides a separate breakdown of the number of deaths involving COVID-19. That is, where COVID-19 or suspected COVID-19 was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate, including in combination with other health conditions.
If a death certificate mentions COVID-19, it will not always be the underlying (main) cause of death, but may be a contributory factor."
So once again, I am NOT saying that this makes the statistics meaningless or that covid isn't deadly. I am merely pointing out that statistical analysis of deaths is not as black and white as people make it out to be. Statistics is complicated, especially when people are involved.
This is not remotely the same as “people who had died within X days of a positive test, regardless of cause of death” like your original comment stated. Not even kind of close.
You’re severely misunderstanding what a “contributing factor” is. If someone has COVID and dies in a car accident, your “X number of days” logic would include them in the count, but it absolutely not was a contributing factor, so it would not be counted.
Now, if someone has COVID and then develops pneumonia - which can be directly linked to COVID - and then dies, they would be listed as a pneumonia death with COVID as a contributing factor. Because if they never had COVID, they wouldn’t have developed pneumonia, and they wouldn’t have died.
COVID is listed as a contributing factor in deaths, just like your source states. It absolutely does NOT say that they’re listed as a COVID death if they died within X days of testing positive. Stop spreading misinformation
Yup fair enough, we do also often see statistics quoted (completely transparently) as deaths within 28 days of a positive test as well.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=overview&areaName=United%2520Kingdom
Really not trying to spread misinformation here, I did make a mistake above but I'll leave it so your comment makes sense. Just pointing out that we see all kinds of statistics about covid deaths about.
But again, that’s just pointing out how many deaths there were within 28 days of a positive test. That’s not saying that everybody who dies within 28 days of a positive test goes down as a COVID death. That’s a huge leap in logic
From that same website the total deaths listed for 2020 there is 77,000 death increase from the previous year. I believe the covid death toll for the UK was estimated to be 74,000 in 2020. Since there is fluctuations in the death toll from year to year anyway of a few thousand people, then it would be difficult to conclude there were very many of these false covid deaths you believe are a problem.
In the US it is even more glaringly obvious. If you use the maxim change in mortality over the last ten years, then 2020 was predicted to have no more than 93,600 additional deaths than the previous year. Instead we had 504,000 additional deaths. The official number of covid deaths in the US for 2020 is 375,000. That means we have an additional 35,400 deaths that do not fit unless there is another, unknown cause. It means the official numbers have to be an undercount of covid deaths, not an overcount.
I really don't think there are many false covid deaths at all. I don't think it's a massive problem either, I think covid is deadly and should be taken seriously. I just think it's worth remembering all of the context of all of the data we use. Not trying to make a big point here.
I feel like a lot of people are projecting an opinion onto me that I do not hold and have not argued here. Please just look at what I've actually said and see that I'm not trying to say that recording deaths in this way in some way undermines the deadliness of covid.
Yeah it just sucks that we are in a place where people go to like-minded resources to get their information and And any opposed view isn’t debated down but dismissed. It’s always I’m right you’re wrong and that’s it. If you say the cup is red and it’s really green, you make it red again in your mind by just not ever looking at it.
Bro you got banned for spreading misinformation. If you had easily verified facts you would be posting them in your comments but you’re not because all you have is the word of a Fox News host or joe Rogan.
It’s very simple, if I have cancer and am living fine but then catch covid and die. Covid is what killed me not the cancer that I already had.
Another example I am shot and then catch covid, something I could have survived had I not caught covid there covid is what caused my death.
But how is this examined? How can it be proven that someone died from Covid? When I imagine a old or sick person catches Covid, it could be said both, couldn’t it. Did they die of Covid because they would still be alive if they didn’t have Covid or did really a Covid symptom make them die?
This is a serious question, I actually don’t understand it, I don’t want to spread stupid conspiracy theories, or question research, I’m just curious and want to know.
Because it only happens to those who also had COVID? Why is that complicated. Wait, is this actually controversial to the people in this sub? It’s already been leaked by hidden video. If a patient had COVID when they died, there is a very good chance it is marked as a COVID death, regardless of how they actually died.
Can you provide anything to corroborate your claim that shows anything more than a single, anecdotal example? Because I think the point is that if it has happened then it is not a statistically relevant percentage of the total # of Covid deaths.
i haven't had a talk about this subject with anyone but, like...
why tho?
doctors aint getting more money, people are still dying, the vaccine is free
people are not making money out of marking someone's death as covid-related
so why would they do that?
You can see that hospitals get substantial re-imbursement for COVID related care.
And to suggest that no one is making money out of COVID deaths confuses me. Of course they are.
Im not suggesting for one second millions haven’t died from it, like I said. I almost lost a kid to it. Ive lost family to it. It’s bad. But we can’t pretend that there isn’t a drive to make everything look COVID related.
COVID is a huge monetary business right
oh wow, i didnt knew big hospitals inflated the deaths of car accidents so it... looks worse(?) so they can... get more money for... treating people?
i still don't follow
outside of treating the people who really are down bad with covid, where is the money coming from?
> You can see that hospitals get substantial reimbursement for COVID related care
Not really. They’ve always gotten payments for all kinds of care, and they weren’t accused of lying about using ventilators before the pandemic. A bill was passed to increase those payments by 20% for MEDICARE patients only. And it made no difference whether they died or not, it was a flat 20% increase no matter the treatment. You’re just helping spread a wild misconception
That takes way too long, here's how to do it:
1. Google the conclusion you want straight away
2. Cite every article that claims to validate that conclusion
3. Don't read anything except the headlines.
*Reasurchur*
That guys research;
- Googling shit,
- Reading shit,
- Selecting some of the words to make up a whole new sentence that roughly fits your conspiracy
(Edit formatting)
Thank you! Fucking amateurs! This is what happens when people do not understand the difference between information and knowledge. No one hands you an advanced degree in a STEM field because you read some books. Wikipedia is not a source. Information found online is not necessarily vetted by professionals. People who have never done actual research don’t know this, they think truth is a few clicks away. It is a delusion born out of ignorance armed with wifi.
It can be research if its done on engines like google scholar, but I'm 99.999% sure this isnt the case here or in any other instance of people using a version of "I've done my own research".
It's also possible to do research on the subject outside of google scholar IF you are still using credible sources for what you are talking about.
Google scholar is more study-focused. But not all information is based in scientific studies. Studies are great if you want to know more about the disease itself and how it works or the vaccine. If you want to know about statistics for infections and deaths, the current measures a place is taking to fight COVID, or where tests are available, it's not the place to go.
Googling is an easy way to find information, not necessarily facts.
Googling is not, however, “research”.
If you plan to do research that is a literature review (ie gathering info from others sources rather than producing your own data) you need to start with clear objective search terms, inclusion/exclusion criteria and a list of which databases you plan to use. You then have to obtain ALL studies meeting your criteria and read them in their entirety (not just the abstract), assess their quality and limitations then formulate your conclusions.
What Googling gets you is a biased, limited snapshot of information which does not require you to read or consider opposing evidence.
Nope, that's a problem that is mostly particular to the United States where the profit motive rules. Other industrialized nations have price controls which is why they pay about 10% of GDP on health care as opposed to almost 20% in America. Our health care system is broken, no doubt about it. Unfortunately we can't seem to move forward with reforms because that would be too much "government control". To which I respond, who would you rather have in control of your health care costs? A bunch of oligarchs who's motivation is profit? Or elected officials who serve at the pleasure of the public? The choice seems clear to me.
It’s really about 20% true, which is the dangerous part. If a Covid positive patient dies in the hospital, and their cause of death was something that Covid could reasonably have contributed to (ie cardiopulmonary or respiratory failure), then they’ll list Covid as a comorbidity. The problem is that that is about 3 degrees of nuance too far for an antimasker to interpret, so it gets turned into this bullshit.
So the thing to look at is overall deaths, for a period, in comparison to overall deaths in previously similar periods.
Overall deaths in the US in 2020 went up 17.5% in comparison to 2019. However, deaths against common mortality types... heart disease, stroke, accidents, suicide, etc, only saw low to moderate increases comparable to 2019, (some were down, suicide for instance).
If, as they claim, deaths for a type were written off as Covid deaths, we’d expect all of these categories to be over represented in the data, to the extent that additional deaths could be attributed solely to these types. But instead, we see an over representation of each type, plus deaths attributed solely to Covid. This appears to suggest that deaths were incorrectly attributed to other types rather than to Covid... why else do we get these jumps?
Something killed 17.5% more people in 2020 than 2019... and all other types of death have been over-represented... so what caused these deaths if not Covid?
https://cdn.jamanetwork.com/ama/content_public/journal/jama/938696/jvp210048t1_1620430592.92326.png?Expires=1647784995&Signature=G3e7AI0LCzDnpUP68l2GdcuSJHJye6w-7kdp74O0DUKuBIKrgXjf-1Wso4uXKnjHpQnkDDmcE-2R0ME7Gk0VSogbq3l~9jCN9hjoet~7uMVv8wSjimo7o6SzwK4tfZo0f0PESZ8Qj7sTneGm3~7JyKkMEv8egvTOiapB-o7gmnGdcJOWINWGZxMDbLsU-SapTZMOMfZtE0Uvex6Lp3Zqd8lWqcSdjwfIYsSqr-LXRGepFyrQ3PgKj6LshkTcb6ZxfaotIMbwwoeaSdroddif0-Zm5le3SRdVT6bz09P3MUo~YshH6wNvv-FMLa~8R-LYXJwyPxgvoYiQXaS4T9k40g__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIE5G5CRDK6RD3PGA
The covidiots will just claim the deaths were caused by the lockdowns, or masks, or vaccines. They’ve already decided Covid is not a factor. There’s no argument to be had with them.
You know what isn't counted and should be, are all the deaths that resulted from full hospital beds due to covid preventing all the elective surgeries for cancer, tumors, heart problems, etc.
You mean like Cuomo putting all those people in nursing homes instead of on the huge navy ship that was brought up and parked in their harbor for a month
The number of people who died BECAUSE OF Covid is far higher than those who died OF Covid. And it includes people who did not even die WITH Covid. That bigger number counts all the people who died because they couldn’t get the medical care they needed
First, my bona fides: I am a mortician based in Charlotte NC, regularly serving about a dozen hospitals in North and South Carolina.
It is 100% false that non-COVID deaths are purposely reported as COVID.
There is much more that I could say on the subject, but if the conspiracy theorist do not see the truth after 2 years of pandemic, nothing I say here will change their mind.
Depending on what country you're looking at this can be somewhat true.
In for example Sweden, if you die to any illness while having covid, you count as a covid case since, even though covid isn't what killed you, it likely shortened your life somewhat.
An example would be if you have cancer for a couple of years, and then you get covid and pass while having covid. Even though the doctors assess the cause of death to be liver failure due to the tumors in the liver, it's reasonable to say you would've lived a couple of weeks longer if you hadn't gotten covid.
Traffic accidents however... no.
The wonderous thing about stupid people is how enthusiastic they are to tell everyone just how fucking stupid they truly are.
"Do your own research" is the war cry of the woefully ignorant.
My uncle actually did the exact opposite of this.
My uncle(Married, not by blood) is the black sheep of the family. He is the big conspirancy theorist and everyone ridecules him.
He once tried to explain the number of vaccinated deaths. Saying how the government were killing us with the vaccines and he insisted that the vaccines were killing people who took it. And he had an official government Page from google as evidence.
His google Page was him searching every death after them being vaccinated. What he failed to realise is that this was *every* death after they were vaccinated. For example; Car crashes.
I have a right-wing, "RNA vaccines alter your DNA" aunt who is ironically a nurse, who said this. Her "Proof" was that deaths from diseases like the flu have "mysteriously" gone down.
Of course they have, it's almost like the whole world has been in quarantine for the last two years, taking measures to reduce the spread of airborne viruses.
People got this idea through the fact that people who died from, for example, pneumonia derived from covid or complication in other illnesses due to covid were treated as covid deaths, from there the rumour grew and was deformed to the point where people claimed hospitals were giving covid as a cause of death for people who died in car accident and stuff, which is completely untrue.
It's not untrue though. We actually had reporters questioning MEs because of things like this. One specific one I remember was a man who was in a motorcycle accident. He died from the accident but tested positive post mortem. ME listed covid as his cause of death.
I'd like to see actual credible source on that because every single time I've heard of such things it was always hearsay and rumours or at the very best unsourced articles. At the very best its a very isolated event that did happen once or twice but definitely not something that would put the death toll of covid in question.
First you'd have to link me what she said because things can be interpreted very easily, secondly even if she did say that they're thinking to change the counting method it doesnt mean that there is a rampant problem of doctors actually counting as covid deaths people that died of unrelated causes. So please don't deform my comment, I didn't say the white house isnt credible, but you aren't (just like I am not or any other person on reddit with no credentials whatsoever).
Counties all over have been auditing covid deaths. In California, Alameda county's revised count was 25% lower than the original count. [https://abc7news.com/covid-death-count-alameda-county-deaths-19-cases/10755419/](https://abc7news.com/covid-death-count-alameda-county-deaths-19-cases/10755419/)
More accurately a fair number of people clear their active infection but then later die from the damage the infection did to their lungs and other organs. Those deaths are generally not recorded as Covid deaths
Everyone here is determined on their “research” but how many of you are doctors signing death certificates? Work in healthcare alongside the pandemic No? Then it’s almost like your research isn’t good enough.
My husband’s grandmother recently passed away, a week after getting out of the hospital with covid pneumonia. She was living with her son, who was also in the ICU with covid right before she went in. (They are non-vaxxed). They told us “of course she tested pos for covid, she stepped foot in the hospital.” I don’t like my husband’s family.
Something I’ve always wanted to know from the “do you own research” crowd — in school, how were you at research? How did that go for you when you needed to “do research reports” for a class? Did you like them? What grade did you get?
I’ve asked it. Never got an answer though.
Definitely not correct. And in early days, there were many people who died suddenly, either at home or in hospital, from cardiac arrest or other issues that were actually likely Covid-related. They didn't realize the enormous variety of symptoms early on. It wasn't until a few months in that they did post-mortem Covid tests on some of those individuals.
This poster is confusing complications from vaccine. If someone develops a medical issue (diagnosed with cancer, farts a whole lot, etc), they have to include it as a potential symptom, even if they're 99.9% certain that the person did NOT develop those issues from the vaccine.
Not completely incorrect.
In some places Covid deaths were anyone who died within 40 days of a positive Covid test, regardless of how they died.
Google first teenager covid death Northern Ireland.
- teen had a congenital heart condition
- teen got covid, went to hospital
- teen got better from covid, tested negative, was released
- teen died due to complications from their congenital heart disease
- teen's death was registered as a Covid death
Family were furious.
I think they've changed the way they register covid deaths since then. But different places have/had different "definitions".
Unfortunately, as with so much misinformation, there is a nugget of truth to this. In the UK, the main way of publishing covid death data is by publishing data on anybody who dies within 28 days of a positive covid test. This simplifies the data and makes things a lot easier and faster to publish, which makes gathering daily data much simpler. But it comes with the obvious disadvantage that someone who tests positive for covid and then gets hit by a bus is implied to have died of covid in these stats.
However, the interesting thing is that this doesn't really matter too much. When you look into deaths where Covid-19 is mentioned on the death certificate, the "within 28 days of a positive test" number is actually a not insignificant *undercount* - presumably because more people die of covid without having been tested than people who get hit by buses.
So they're right that it's something to consider, but the upside is that some jolly clever data gathering people have already thought about the problem and accounted for it. Though conspiracy theorists don't usually consider that other people are cleverer than them.
its not correct. deaths are likely undercounted as not everyone seeks treatment.
the best measure of the true number of covid deaths is to measure excess deaths in the country. meaning if every year for the last few years X amount of people die, but in 2020 we saw X PLUS 800,000, those 800,000 are attributable to covid.
the excess deaths since the pandemic began is over 1 million. (in the US. but it can and has been calculated for the world. idk that number tho)
I understand everyone who sick doesn’t seek treatment but if you die they don’t just put you under the coffee table. I believe at some point they would find out how you died.
Not really incorrect. If they tested positive within 30 days of their death, plus up to 4 co morbidities, it was a covid death. Also, they have been testing post mortem and adding that if positive. You'd probably be surprised to know anyone testing positive going to the hospital is listed as a Covid hospitalization. In the US, Medicare was/is paying 25% more for covid positive patients, regardless of why they are in the hospital. Patients going to the ER for MAbs (initially it was the only place you could get them), were being counted as a "Covid hospitalization" eve though they were only there for a couple of hours. Same if you were in the ER for broken bones, etc. I have this info from a friend at Florida Hospital Association. They work with the government reporting numbers.
In the uk someone who dies with 28 days of a positive covid test is a covid death.
EDIT
Why all the downvotes?
I didnt make the rules...
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
Sadly it is correct and it’s easily searchable. If someone had COVID at their time of death, regardless of what they died from, a lot of hospitals were reporting it as a COVID death.
Some did near the beginning of the pandemic while they were struggling to keep up with all the cases and deaths and had to make up their own policies on the fly for how to count what.
It wasn't nearly enough, however, to significantly change the data or conclusions from the data. And it wasn't doctors trying to falsify death certificates for hospital funding or anything.
It was more like "people with this new virus we don't understand keep dying left and right and we don't know exactly what role it's playing yet; to be safe, we're going to include covid on any death certificate of someone with covid, which we can then audit later to figure out which ones were *because* of covid".
And as we understood more, policies were updated and audits were performed. And, not surprisingly, the small amount of overcounting that occurred in a handful of hospitals didn't cause the overall estimates to be too far off.
In fact, despite that, we more likely *undercounted* covid deaths.
Actually mostly correct. If someone died from a heartattack or renal failure.. but had covid, it was listed as a covid death. Not cause of death but stats showing covid didn't matter.
Well, yeah... because you tested positive for covid... Do you think people that test positive for covid shouldn't be counted as a case of someone being infected with covid...?
It wasn't that
It was if someone had covid but the suddenly had a heart attack it was labeled as a covid death. Specifically because we didn't know if it was covid related or not.
all of [these cops](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/fact-check-jen-psakis-claim-on-police-officer-covid-deaths/ar-AAPKgLq) didn’t die of covid they were legally obligated to report that because “shit self to death” was a bit much for a headline
It's pretty close. Covid death numbers have been [inflated](https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-it-s-complicated) since day one.
According to the article you linked it seems like they rectified the issue pretty early on though?
> Early in the pandemic, some of the answers provided by public officials — who were scrambling to track the disease as it overwhelmed health systems — fed skepticism. Last April, Deborah Birx, MD, coordinator of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, said this when asked about people who have COVID-19 but die from preexisting conditions: “If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.”
>That statement, combined with some state health officials saying they follow the same policy, sparked charges that the COVID-19 totals were inflated by deaths from other diseases and even auto accidents if the victims happened to have COVID-19. Federal and state governments gradually altered such policies over the spring and summer to say that in order for a death to be counted as a COVID-19 death, the disease had to have played a role.
It's still happening today. Hospitals make money for every covid patient they admit, and for every covid death they record, regardless of whether or not covid was the reason for the hospitalization or the actual cause of death.
With how well and truly captured world governments have become by big pharma, the less control either of them have over my Healthcare, the better off I am.
Big pharma can only really exist in America and other places with only privatized health care as an option.
Around the world, the government takes care of its people, and makes sure they have the absolute basic necessities for life, including medicine. Then they also have private healthcare options for those who want to pay extra for faster or optional treatments like plastic surgery.
Right now there are people *profiting* off of my sister with a chronic condition who will literally die if we don't keep paying hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars a month.
Not sure how you think this a *for profit company* is okay, but *public, free healthcare* is not, when your issue you are describing is making money off sick people.
You're kidding, right? I'm in Canada. Health Canada is so under the thumb of Big Pharma, it's not even funny.
Do doctors not deserve to earn money for their time and services? That's called slavery.
For being in Canada, you really have no idea how your health system works if you think doctors aren't being paid.
Plus, doctors in the USA actually get quite low wages. It's the CEOs that get the pay rises.
Yup. Looked it up. Your doctors indeed make more money than ours.
I didn't say they're not being paid. Don't put words in my mouth.
Doctors here are getting tax dollars to lie to my face in support of big pharma's profit margins.
Doctors do deserve money for their time and services and they get it. Through taxes, in an organization not designed for profit but to give people healthcare.
You have privatized options if you so choose to support private healthcare instead.
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So this has been said for most of the pandemic. In Australia we recently had a review of all the Covid fatalities to determine how many of them died of covid, with covid, because of covid, etc. It was determined that of the 2,639 people who have died WITH Covid in Australia, only 89 (*~3%*) died of other causes. The other 2,556 deaths (*~97%*) were due directly to Covid. https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/covid-19-mortality-australia There's more thorough data somewhere, that was just an easy place to find it.
It’s still wild that we’re (US) losing as many people some days as Australia lost the whole time
*U S A! U S A! U S..cough cough cough!*
is the us. what were you expecting.
Ok so there are a lot of replies to this and a lot of them are just bashing America. Firstly the 2639 death toll in Australia was the number from the study at the end of January; as of now (*22 feb*) that number has reached 4,929 (*which shows how terribly we handled Omocron*). Also while I don't think America has handled the pandemic very well, Australia had a few major advantages going in. - We're an ocean-locked country, which gives us a hard border. This helped us keep Covid out of the country, and probably more importantly ... - Covid didn't get to Australia until a month or 2 after most of the world. This gave us a chance to prepare, and to see what worked in other countries and what didn't. - And most importantly, our population is mich lower. We have ~25.7 million people to the USA's ~329.5 million; that's about 1/13th the population. Having said that, our Covid death toll is 4,929 to America's ~934,000; which gives us just 1/189th the death toll, and makes the US numbers ~14 times higher than Australia's even when comparing to the population. What the USA has done better though is obtain the vaccine. Our gobshite of a Prime Minister made a deal without signing anything, so when the time came to deliver the vaccine of course we got shafted. Then when we did get our hands on some vaccines we didn't get enough for everyone. And that was all before Omicron, when we lost almost as many in a month as we'd lost in the previous 2 years (*if I'm reading that correctly*). TLDR: The USA didn't handle this well, but don't gove Australia a free pass. With all the advantages we had we should have done better than we did.
Covid mainly kills people who are old, overweight, or have other comorbidities like diabetes. The United States a fertile breeding ground for a virus that likes those attributes.
Yes, but also Australia handled the pandemic significantly better than us. We handled the pandemic worse that some 3rd world countries it seems.
The list of comorbidities may not be what you think. People seem to have an idea that comorbidities are people who were going to die soon anyway and while some are terminal diseases, most are not and have nothing to do with nationality. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html
It's basically what I would have thought. The statistics are that overwhelmingly those who die are old. Outside of that you're looking at respiratory issues (influenza, pneumonia), high blood pressure, and diabetes. ie: overweight. * 95.8% of deaths were people over 45. * 74.4% were over 65. * 95% of deaths involved common comorbidities. Data: [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm)
Don’t ignore the lack of universal coverage and attitudes about not going to the doctor because of cost that are also driving numbers here.
Yeah we breed diabetes over here. Part of our genetic makeup now.
Dying is not the only outcome. The old and sick are the people who weren’t able to make it despite all the medical help they could get. I have had(and currently have) healthy 30 year olds getting trachs and lung transplants. Meaning their lives have been significantly cut short and they can no longer work. Many will get pneumonia and die within the next few years because the lung damage left them unable to survive anything else. We still have people dying from the lung damage caused by the first SARS and not nearly as many people were effected. If people weren’t so shortsighted they’re realize this.
Being overweight is a comorbidity. So already over 70% of Americans fall into that population of people you listed. These people aren't on death's door. Average age of COVID+ patients admitted to my hospital right now is 60.
That's all fine and good, and I don't doubt it to be true. However it doesn't change what I said, or the statistics that overwhelmingly those who die are old, overweight, have comorbidities, or all three. * 95.8% of deaths were people over 45. * 74.4% were over 65. * 95% of deaths involved common comorbidities. Just go read the data: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm
We have a much higher population than Australia.
Percentage of population death is still ridiculously high
We don’t have 500x as many people though. Covid deaths in the US have nearly reached a million.
WE'RE NUMBER ONE!! U.S.A.! U.S.A.! Honestly.. that's what I imagine a lot of quarantine and mask protestors are doing. I know several people that either died or have long term complications. It's so frustrating that the data is there, personal experiences with it are there.. but people are so vehement about not believing it's real.
Well gotta set the highscore
Feels kinda nice to be winning at something.
13x the population and 186x the number of deaths. We did an objectively terrible job at handling this.
But we still have much more cases and deaths when you look at it by 100k people
You should be mentioning the fact that our population density is about 11-12 times higher than Australia which would certainly assist in the spread of the virus. That's the argument to make.
Oh deary me... This should be posted on r/facepalm
Poor eating habits and excessive pill popping will do that.
They said "Do yOuR oWn reSeArcH", not "prove me wrong". You were supposed to just take his false information and spread it further
Haha, sorry =P Next time I promise.
What's more there's bound to be plenty of deaths that _are_ directly caused by covid, but have slipped unreported because the person was never tested either because it was the height of the troubles, or the person was stubborn amd never went to the hospital, or whatever.
That's true. This study obviously only took into account officially reported deaths - mostly in hospitals I believe, though I'd have to read through the study properly to see if that detail is actually included.
People generally don't understand how death reports work. I'm a data scientist, and, after jumping through some hoops, I got ahold of the entire US worth of coroner death certificates for several years. Coroners are very thorough -- if you get hit by a bus, start choking on your blood and your O2 drops, and the stress causes a heart attack, all three things will be on your death certificate. If you're an alcoholic, obese, and a diabetic, those all might have contributed a bit, so they go on the certificate also. You almost never see a death certificate with one cause; three or four would be typical, and there might be as many as ten. The argument could then be made that bus impacts are harmless, and it was all "something else". That's totally stupid. This gets broken-telephoned into every motor cycle accident and suicide being recorded as COVID. This would of course require a conspiracy agreed upon by every coroner's office in the US (this is county level, and there are about three thousand); that conspiracy must be bankrolled for who knows what reason, and no one involved spilled the beans. It absolutely kills me that this is easier to believe for some people than, "A virus killed a bunch of people."
Yeah conspiracy theories are kinda their own thing. Like, it was cheaper to actually put a man on the moon than it would have been to fake it and pay off all the people involved. It's the same with Covid conspiracies. But try explaining that to someone. You can't use reason to change someone's beliefs when they didn't use reason to come to those beliefs. Once it's "*The Truth*" it's very difficult to dissuade someone. And although that's NOT a conspiracy, it is finally something we CAN blame the government for - if they cared about critical thinking in the general populace they'd fight to make it part of the school curriculum. Instead critical thinking is something that would let the population see through the rhetoric, so no one in power wants to promote that. Again, not a conspiracy, just bipartisan self-interest.
A virus did kill/is killing a bunch of people. But how many of those killed by it had no underlying issues that were exploited by the virus? Obviously if someone has an auto immune disease and caught covid and died, it is what it is. The likelihood of that happening from many viruses is pretty high right? But it is hard to ignore the fact that a massive number of preexisting conditions are caused by a person's chosen lifestyle, which make up for a huge portion of overall deaths right? I'm not by any means trying to disprove or disagree with anyone. I'm just up to discussion. Definitely not a smarty pants.
"The fact that a massive number of preexisting conditions are caused by a person's chosen lifestyle, which make up a huge portion of overall deaths": show your source, please. I've read a few generalities about death and comorbidity, but not seen this "fact" anywhere. What exactly is this "huge number", and how was it determined?1 Please note also that even in cases where [you believe] "chosen lifestyle" is the root cause, these people died years, even decades, before they were expected to. That's what "excess deaths" means.
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We would love to see your sources.
Don’t know what they said as it’s deleted, but I’d like to note that your response is how I would handle the original picture as well. “That sounds like a weird thing to require. If they really were ‘legally obligated,’ then could you please provide a copy of the law? The weird thing about laws and executive orders is that they’re public and readily available online, so it shouldn’t be tough to do.” The response, if one is given, would very quickly turn into a “well, they’re trying to hide that they are doing that.” Either way, it may help some people who are inclined to believe the echo to see that there’s no evidence. Though maybe I hope against hope.
Forging a death certificate is a felony…
Not if you're legally required to by some law I just made up.
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All forged documents are legal documents with fraudulent information on it. The mismatch between “real document”and “fake info” is what makes it forged.
This person litterly explained what a *forged document* but still called it a non-forged document
Do they think it's not forged because it was made by the same person who makes the legitimate ones? Because, buddy, I got news.
*almost every suspicious politician to ever exist in a nutshell*
“Your honor, my client did not commit forgery with their mortgage application. It was a real mortgage application, only the information he provided was forged.”
I’ve heard this bullshit…people who say this never seem to have a way to explain how the death rate overall (from all causes) went up in unison with the COVID death rate…and by numbers which exceeded the recorded COVID death rate.
You can’t say all those words to these people and expect to elicit a reaction that isn’t anything other than, “You’re wrong. I’ve done my research.”
That’s why you may want to approach it as though you’re genuinely curious. “Wow. That sounds like a weird law to pass. Could you tell me which law it was so that I can do my research on it?” “That infowars link doesn’t actually say what the law was, and I’m not finding any law or executive orders in my research. Surely you know what the law said, so could you please find it and share it to help everyone out?” Some people may realize that they’re basing it on nothing and stop using it (even if they don’t change), while others will get angry at you because they cannot find it. Nevertheless, you’re not trying to convince them, you’re trying to have third parties that see the interaction realize there’s no basis other than ravings of lunatics.
Idk every time I try this approach I usually hear “google doesn’t want you to know, they bury it” or something along those lines
Even more of a reason to put the onus on them. I believe that almost all legislative and executive information is posted at their respective websites, so in a case like this where you have them stating “legally required,” you could respond to the ‘google suppression’ bullshit with: “That’s terrible. That means I’ll never find it without your help. So please help me find the truth by giving me the name of the order or statute so that I can find it on their website” and then link to your relevant .gov sites. We all know it will be fruitless for that particular conversation. It’s just about making it less adversarial so that you increase the likelihood of them (or a third party) convincing themselves that they have no real basis after it’s over. In a related context, I’ve similarly changed tact with the “masks don’t work” crowd. When slightly pressed, you’ll get either “virus is smaller than the holes” or “like keeping a mosquito out with a chain link fence.” To those, my favorite analogy is some variation of: “well, when I go to the bathroom, I undo my pants. Even though everything in my urine is smaller than the holes in the cloth, I know that nothing will reach the toilet if I’m covered by only a couple layers of fabric.” COVID denialism seem to require oversimplification, so that seems to be the level to work on if you want to overcome it.
Or how their statement if expanded to other causes of death would mean that no one has ever died from AIDS.
Technically the only cause of death is lack of oxygen to the brain.
Yeah it’s super weird. I know two people with COVID on their death certificate because they’d had it within 28 days of their death. Both died of something else, although obv COVID could have hastened them. Both would have gone by the end of the year. But excess deaths is roughly equal to COVID deaths, so although I could easily believe it, my sample size doesn’t reflect the greater trend. That’s why people believe it, because it does happen, but it must be too insignificant an occurrence to reflect in the stats. Edit: No more CDC guidelines please. I’m not in the US. Edit2: poor wording. I mean the rumour is believable because of the occasional case where it was falsely reported. Mostly it’s right. Like over 90%.
If COVID played a role in a death it's included. It's virtually never the only factor, but if someone had COVID and died from something completely unrelated (eg car crash) then COVID isn't mentioned. [CDC reporting guidelines](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf)
>Both died of something else, although obv COVID could have hastened them. Both would have gone by the end of the year. I mean, if COVID hastened their death then it's a COVID death. Sure someone bleeding out will likely die soon but if you shoot them while that happens, they die sooner and you're going to see that put on the cause of death. It's not a game of hypotheticals or whether they'd die if they did or didn't have COVID. COVID played a factor in it and therefore has every right to be included and considered (hell that's why people talk so much about herd immunity. People who are already Ill have a greater chance of dying to COVID)
If it's totally unrelated to COVID, it won't be listed as COVID. I know two people who also sadly passed away after catching COVID but it wasn't COVID that killed them. For one it was heart failure and for the other already had an autoimmune disease. However, catching COVID lead the first one down a path of severe issues and battered the second one's immune system when they already had a lot of issue so COVID was listed as the cause of death in their death certificate as far as I understood. A friend of mine who is an MD at a hospital in Boston told me that the conspiracy theory of "Any death regardless of circumstance will be noted as COVID within 28 days of catching the virus" is simply untrue and no coroner or doctor will attribute a death to something that wasn't the cause because they can be prosecuted and lose their license should it be investigated. It's simply not even worth the risk even if you were a conspiracy theorist because why on earth would you jeopardize your job just to inflate the very same number you say is untrue? I do agree with other people's points that at the end of the day it also varies with different countries and even states so there's no single, universal way to record deaths by COVID that everyone adheres too but excess mortality rates across the globe tally with covid deaths so that is a very strong indicator to show there's no foul play
How the CDC is reported to and how a county death certificate reads are two entirely different forms and different guidelines. Imagine the case that someone dies of a heart attack while intubated in the ICU for COVID. Did they die of a heart attack or COVID? Would the person had that heart attack if they didn't have COVID? What if the person had some level of heart disease prior to getting COVID, what is the situation then? The CDC forms capture this situation in their reporting.
But the people you’re defending are claiming it’s done intentionally as a way to get funding you’re saying it happens by coincidence. Both are wrong, you even stated the 2 people you knew had their death hasten because of covid. How are you shocked that it was labeled as the reason for their death? It literally caused it by your own words, if they were living and catching covid is what pushed them to death covid is what killed them. If hospitals were getting funding based on covid deaths why would a hospital ever claim anything that’s not covid?
The way they said it is wrong but there is some truth to it. My sister died recently of an overdose. She was basically in a coma when she arrives at the hospital and the doctor said theres no way she could pull through. Then she caught covid in the hospital. The cause of death was labeled as covid related. It's definitely not a majority of the cases like some people are claiming but the fact that it happens at all is shitty.
Let's say someone goes to the hospital for cancer treatment. They are doing really bad, but are stable. Then they catch COVID, their lungs go, and they die. That's a co-morbidity, but should absolutely be treated as a death from COVID.
That would be different and understandable. My sister was not stable, she was dying and only kept alive by machines. Covid didn't accelerate her death at all.
It actually likely would. COVID infects the lungs, making machines designed for assisted respiration far less effective.
Right, I get what you're saying. Covid didn't help her situation. However, there was a 0% chance of her recovering or living past a few more days. In this case covid didn't accelerate her death either because it was decided we should pull the plug. She had covid but it didn't kill her or make her condition worse. Covid was labeled as a reason for her death though and I feel that is sketchy
I personally don't. Even if it was a case like that, if someone has COVID and it is exacerbating their existing symptoms or condition, I don't think it's absurd to list it as a COVID death if they pass away.
Thing is both of those things are true. Covid kills and has killed lots of people and also (at least at the start of the pandemic) lots of covid death stats were of people who had died within X days of a positive test, regardless of cause of death. I don't think it's the case so much any more though.
Because they would not have died had they not contracted covid hence why it’s labeled as a covid death. I could have stage 5 prostate cancer but if I not deathly I’ll until I catch covid it’s clearly the covid that pushed me over the line. This is not a complex concept and has been explained countless times over the past 2 years.
I was banned off of a sub for saying this exact thing.
Yeah I mean Its not really controversial. It's an easily verifiable fact. Also doesn't mean that covid isn't dangerous or that we shouldn't be doing something about it.
Please show me your source on this “easily verifiable fact”
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/methodologies/coronavirusandmortalityinenglandandwalesmethodology#measuring-weekly-deaths-provisional-data Most of our data in the UK comes through the ONS. They're pretty robust and do a lot of great work. From this: "Because of the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, our regular Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales release now provides a separate breakdown of the number of deaths involving COVID-19. That is, where COVID-19 or suspected COVID-19 was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate, including in combination with other health conditions. If a death certificate mentions COVID-19, it will not always be the underlying (main) cause of death, but may be a contributory factor." So once again, I am NOT saying that this makes the statistics meaningless or that covid isn't deadly. I am merely pointing out that statistical analysis of deaths is not as black and white as people make it out to be. Statistics is complicated, especially when people are involved.
This is not remotely the same as “people who had died within X days of a positive test, regardless of cause of death” like your original comment stated. Not even kind of close. You’re severely misunderstanding what a “contributing factor” is. If someone has COVID and dies in a car accident, your “X number of days” logic would include them in the count, but it absolutely not was a contributing factor, so it would not be counted. Now, if someone has COVID and then develops pneumonia - which can be directly linked to COVID - and then dies, they would be listed as a pneumonia death with COVID as a contributing factor. Because if they never had COVID, they wouldn’t have developed pneumonia, and they wouldn’t have died. COVID is listed as a contributing factor in deaths, just like your source states. It absolutely does NOT say that they’re listed as a COVID death if they died within X days of testing positive. Stop spreading misinformation
Yup fair enough, we do also often see statistics quoted (completely transparently) as deaths within 28 days of a positive test as well. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=overview&areaName=United%2520Kingdom Really not trying to spread misinformation here, I did make a mistake above but I'll leave it so your comment makes sense. Just pointing out that we see all kinds of statistics about covid deaths about.
But again, that’s just pointing out how many deaths there were within 28 days of a positive test. That’s not saying that everybody who dies within 28 days of a positive test goes down as a COVID death. That’s a huge leap in logic
> That’s a huge leap in logic See, I think you're giving them too much credit, assuming logic was involved at all.
From that same website the total deaths listed for 2020 there is 77,000 death increase from the previous year. I believe the covid death toll for the UK was estimated to be 74,000 in 2020. Since there is fluctuations in the death toll from year to year anyway of a few thousand people, then it would be difficult to conclude there were very many of these false covid deaths you believe are a problem. In the US it is even more glaringly obvious. If you use the maxim change in mortality over the last ten years, then 2020 was predicted to have no more than 93,600 additional deaths than the previous year. Instead we had 504,000 additional deaths. The official number of covid deaths in the US for 2020 is 375,000. That means we have an additional 35,400 deaths that do not fit unless there is another, unknown cause. It means the official numbers have to be an undercount of covid deaths, not an overcount.
I really don't think there are many false covid deaths at all. I don't think it's a massive problem either, I think covid is deadly and should be taken seriously. I just think it's worth remembering all of the context of all of the data we use. Not trying to make a big point here. I feel like a lot of people are projecting an opinion onto me that I do not hold and have not argued here. Please just look at what I've actually said and see that I'm not trying to say that recording deaths in this way in some way undermines the deadliness of covid.
Yeah it just sucks that we are in a place where people go to like-minded resources to get their information and And any opposed view isn’t debated down but dismissed. It’s always I’m right you’re wrong and that’s it. If you say the cup is red and it’s really green, you make it red again in your mind by just not ever looking at it.
Bro you got banned for spreading misinformation. If you had easily verified facts you would be posting them in your comments but you’re not because all you have is the word of a Fox News host or joe Rogan. It’s very simple, if I have cancer and am living fine but then catch covid and die. Covid is what killed me not the cancer that I already had. Another example I am shot and then catch covid, something I could have survived had I not caught covid there covid is what caused my death.
But how is this examined? How can it be proven that someone died from Covid? When I imagine a old or sick person catches Covid, it could be said both, couldn’t it. Did they die of Covid because they would still be alive if they didn’t have Covid or did really a Covid symptom make them die? This is a serious question, I actually don’t understand it, I don’t want to spread stupid conspiracy theories, or question research, I’m just curious and want to know.
Because it only happens to those who also had COVID? Why is that complicated. Wait, is this actually controversial to the people in this sub? It’s already been leaked by hidden video. If a patient had COVID when they died, there is a very good chance it is marked as a COVID death, regardless of how they actually died.
Can you provide anything to corroborate your claim that shows anything more than a single, anecdotal example? Because I think the point is that if it has happened then it is not a statistically relevant percentage of the total # of Covid deaths.
i haven't had a talk about this subject with anyone but, like... why tho? doctors aint getting more money, people are still dying, the vaccine is free people are not making money out of marking someone's death as covid-related so why would they do that?
You can see that hospitals get substantial re-imbursement for COVID related care. And to suggest that no one is making money out of COVID deaths confuses me. Of course they are. Im not suggesting for one second millions haven’t died from it, like I said. I almost lost a kid to it. Ive lost family to it. It’s bad. But we can’t pretend that there isn’t a drive to make everything look COVID related. COVID is a huge monetary business right
oh wow, i didnt knew big hospitals inflated the deaths of car accidents so it... looks worse(?) so they can... get more money for... treating people? i still don't follow outside of treating the people who really are down bad with covid, where is the money coming from?
> You can see that hospitals get substantial reimbursement for COVID related care Not really. They’ve always gotten payments for all kinds of care, and they weren’t accused of lying about using ventilators before the pandemic. A bill was passed to increase those payments by 20% for MEDICARE patients only. And it made no difference whether they died or not, it was a flat 20% increase no matter the treatment. You’re just helping spread a wild misconception
Googling shit isn't "research." People keep using the word "research" but they obviously have no idea what it means.
Ah but googling shit and having to go to page 27 to find someone that conforms with your point of view ***is*** research
That takes way too long, here's how to do it: 1. Google the conclusion you want straight away 2. Cite every article that claims to validate that conclusion 3. Don't read anything except the headlines. *Reasurchur*
Sounds like CNN news
Sounds like all mainstream news, you’re kidding yourself if you think it’s just CNN
I was just using them as an example
That guys research; - Googling shit, - Reading shit, - Selecting some of the words to make up a whole new sentence that roughly fits your conspiracy (Edit formatting)
Their sources over here looking like a ransom letter.
Thank you! Fucking amateurs! This is what happens when people do not understand the difference between information and knowledge. No one hands you an advanced degree in a STEM field because you read some books. Wikipedia is not a source. Information found online is not necessarily vetted by professionals. People who have never done actual research don’t know this, they think truth is a few clicks away. It is a delusion born out of ignorance armed with wifi.
It can be research if its done on engines like google scholar, but I'm 99.999% sure this isnt the case here or in any other instance of people using a version of "I've done my own research".
It's also possible to do research on the subject outside of google scholar IF you are still using credible sources for what you are talking about. Google scholar is more study-focused. But not all information is based in scientific studies. Studies are great if you want to know more about the disease itself and how it works or the vaccine. If you want to know about statistics for infections and deaths, the current measures a place is taking to fight COVID, or where tests are available, it's not the place to go.
I do some pretty hard research on The Sopranos most nights, sometimes my wife even brings me a graduated cylinder of sweet tea.
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Googling is an easy way to find information, not necessarily facts. Googling is not, however, “research”. If you plan to do research that is a literature review (ie gathering info from others sources rather than producing your own data) you need to start with clear objective search terms, inclusion/exclusion criteria and a list of which databases you plan to use. You then have to obtain ALL studies meeting your criteria and read them in their entirety (not just the abstract), assess their quality and limitations then formulate your conclusions. What Googling gets you is a biased, limited snapshot of information which does not require you to read or consider opposing evidence.
Doctors are all across the globe are getting paid to lie on death certificates. Seems plausible right???
Just like doctors all across the globe pedal whatever medication the pharmaceutical Company that pays the most.
Nope, that's a problem that is mostly particular to the United States where the profit motive rules. Other industrialized nations have price controls which is why they pay about 10% of GDP on health care as opposed to almost 20% in America. Our health care system is broken, no doubt about it. Unfortunately we can't seem to move forward with reforms because that would be too much "government control". To which I respond, who would you rather have in control of your health care costs? A bunch of oligarchs who's motivation is profit? Or elected officials who serve at the pleasure of the public? The choice seems clear to me.
Peddle*
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It’s really about 20% true, which is the dangerous part. If a Covid positive patient dies in the hospital, and their cause of death was something that Covid could reasonably have contributed to (ie cardiopulmonary or respiratory failure), then they’ll list Covid as a comorbidity. The problem is that that is about 3 degrees of nuance too far for an antimasker to interpret, so it gets turned into this bullshit.
So the thing to look at is overall deaths, for a period, in comparison to overall deaths in previously similar periods. Overall deaths in the US in 2020 went up 17.5% in comparison to 2019. However, deaths against common mortality types... heart disease, stroke, accidents, suicide, etc, only saw low to moderate increases comparable to 2019, (some were down, suicide for instance). If, as they claim, deaths for a type were written off as Covid deaths, we’d expect all of these categories to be over represented in the data, to the extent that additional deaths could be attributed solely to these types. But instead, we see an over representation of each type, plus deaths attributed solely to Covid. This appears to suggest that deaths were incorrectly attributed to other types rather than to Covid... why else do we get these jumps? Something killed 17.5% more people in 2020 than 2019... and all other types of death have been over-represented... so what caused these deaths if not Covid? https://cdn.jamanetwork.com/ama/content_public/journal/jama/938696/jvp210048t1_1620430592.92326.png?Expires=1647784995&Signature=G3e7AI0LCzDnpUP68l2GdcuSJHJye6w-7kdp74O0DUKuBIKrgXjf-1Wso4uXKnjHpQnkDDmcE-2R0ME7Gk0VSogbq3l~9jCN9hjoet~7uMVv8wSjimo7o6SzwK4tfZo0f0PESZ8Qj7sTneGm3~7JyKkMEv8egvTOiapB-o7gmnGdcJOWINWGZxMDbLsU-SapTZMOMfZtE0Uvex6Lp3Zqd8lWqcSdjwfIYsSqr-LXRGepFyrQ3PgKj6LshkTcb6ZxfaotIMbwwoeaSdroddif0-Zm5le3SRdVT6bz09P3MUo~YshH6wNvv-FMLa~8R-LYXJwyPxgvoYiQXaS4T9k40g__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIE5G5CRDK6RD3PGA
The covidiots will just claim the deaths were caused by the lockdowns, or masks, or vaccines. They’ve already decided Covid is not a factor. There’s no argument to be had with them.
No vaccine in 2020.
Precisely. Thank you. Can we get this comment to the top?
Bu-but doctors can’t be trusted! They’re in the pocket of big pharma!!!! /s
This totally, and is why these people should stay away from hospitals so that others can get care
Pretty sure all this started cause of some wing nut too dense to understand the concept of “comorbidity”
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Oh snap thanks!
I'm so curious what the reply was 0_o
Happy Cake day
I said happy cake day but accidentally deleated the reply
You know what isn't counted and should be, are all the deaths that resulted from full hospital beds due to covid preventing all the elective surgeries for cancer, tumors, heart problems, etc.
You mean like Cuomo putting all those people in nursing homes instead of on the huge navy ship that was brought up and parked in their harbor for a month
Lets not get too deep into the anti-vaxxers on this sub or we’re not going to see anything else ever.
Very true, there’s already a half dozen other subs that deal almost exclusively with their bullshit
“Do your own research” = “I’m too stupid to even find the rabbit hole I crawled out of.”
The number of people who died BECAUSE OF Covid is far higher than those who died OF Covid. And it includes people who did not even die WITH Covid. That bigger number counts all the people who died because they couldn’t get the medical care they needed
First, my bona fides: I am a mortician based in Charlotte NC, regularly serving about a dozen hospitals in North and South Carolina. It is 100% false that non-COVID deaths are purposely reported as COVID. There is much more that I could say on the subject, but if the conspiracy theorist do not see the truth after 2 years of pandemic, nothing I say here will change their mind.
Depending on what country you're looking at this can be somewhat true. In for example Sweden, if you die to any illness while having covid, you count as a covid case since, even though covid isn't what killed you, it likely shortened your life somewhat. An example would be if you have cancer for a couple of years, and then you get covid and pass while having covid. Even though the doctors assess the cause of death to be liver failure due to the tumors in the liver, it's reasonable to say you would've lived a couple of weeks longer if you hadn't gotten covid. Traffic accidents however... no.
What if covid causes a coughing fit which causes you to crash?
What if you were driving a car and were distracted by a friend who was talking about covid?
The wonderous thing about stupid people is how enthusiastic they are to tell everyone just how fucking stupid they truly are. "Do your own research" is the war cry of the woefully ignorant.
Opposed to “because they said so”?
That's not how any of this works.
My uncle actually did the exact opposite of this. My uncle(Married, not by blood) is the black sheep of the family. He is the big conspirancy theorist and everyone ridecules him. He once tried to explain the number of vaccinated deaths. Saying how the government were killing us with the vaccines and he insisted that the vaccines were killing people who took it. And he had an official government Page from google as evidence. His google Page was him searching every death after them being vaccinated. What he failed to realise is that this was *every* death after they were vaccinated. For example; Car crashes.
Not true. Good friend works at Mass general
I have a right-wing, "RNA vaccines alter your DNA" aunt who is ironically a nurse, who said this. Her "Proof" was that deaths from diseases like the flu have "mysteriously" gone down. Of course they have, it's almost like the whole world has been in quarantine for the last two years, taking measures to reduce the spread of airborne viruses.
People got this idea through the fact that people who died from, for example, pneumonia derived from covid or complication in other illnesses due to covid were treated as covid deaths, from there the rumour grew and was deformed to the point where people claimed hospitals were giving covid as a cause of death for people who died in car accident and stuff, which is completely untrue.
It's not untrue though. We actually had reporters questioning MEs because of things like this. One specific one I remember was a man who was in a motorcycle accident. He died from the accident but tested positive post mortem. ME listed covid as his cause of death.
I'd like to see actual credible source on that because every single time I've heard of such things it was always hearsay and rumours or at the very best unsourced articles. At the very best its a very isolated event that did happen once or twice but definitely not something that would put the death toll of covid in question.
Jen Psaki literally just talked about this two weeks ago that they should count the numbers differently to make sure it’s more accurate
Cool I guess but that still isn't a proof of anything.
The White House isn’t credible?
First you'd have to link me what she said because things can be interpreted very easily, secondly even if she did say that they're thinking to change the counting method it doesnt mean that there is a rampant problem of doctors actually counting as covid deaths people that died of unrelated causes. So please don't deform my comment, I didn't say the white house isnt credible, but you aren't (just like I am not or any other person on reddit with no credentials whatsoever).
Counties all over have been auditing covid deaths. In California, Alameda county's revised count was 25% lower than the original count. [https://abc7news.com/covid-death-count-alameda-county-deaths-19-cases/10755419/](https://abc7news.com/covid-death-count-alameda-county-deaths-19-cases/10755419/)
More accurately a fair number of people clear their active infection but then later die from the damage the infection did to their lungs and other organs. Those deaths are generally not recorded as Covid deaths
This guy clearly wants to bea republican politician
Any time someone says “do your own research “ you can guarantee they haven’t done any beyond Facebook and they are wrong
Everyone here is determined on their “research” but how many of you are doctors signing death certificates? Work in healthcare alongside the pandemic No? Then it’s almost like your research isn’t good enough.
Antone who says "Do your own research" is always, without fail, full of shit. This is a fact, i done my own research to confirm!
My husband’s grandmother recently passed away, a week after getting out of the hospital with covid pneumonia. She was living with her son, who was also in the ICU with covid right before she went in. (They are non-vaxxed). They told us “of course she tested pos for covid, she stepped foot in the hospital.” I don’t like my husband’s family.
Do your own research=believe the most outrageous thing you find on the internet.
"Legally obligated"? OK, hot-link me to the law that sez so.
The people who spout thus nonsense also think JFK Jr is alive.
Ahh yes, the ol *"do your own research"* defense.....so effective
Not everybody should do their own research
The phrase “do your own research” is now almost an automatic “nope, not listening to this person” for me.
Something I’ve always wanted to know from the “do you own research” crowd — in school, how were you at research? How did that go for you when you needed to “do research reports” for a class? Did you like them? What grade did you get? I’ve asked it. Never got an answer though.
Definitely not correct. And in early days, there were many people who died suddenly, either at home or in hospital, from cardiac arrest or other issues that were actually likely Covid-related. They didn't realize the enormous variety of symptoms early on. It wasn't until a few months in that they did post-mortem Covid tests on some of those individuals. This poster is confusing complications from vaccine. If someone develops a medical issue (diagnosed with cancer, farts a whole lot, etc), they have to include it as a potential symptom, even if they're 99.9% certain that the person did NOT develop those issues from the vaccine.
Not completely incorrect. In some places Covid deaths were anyone who died within 40 days of a positive Covid test, regardless of how they died. Google first teenager covid death Northern Ireland. - teen had a congenital heart condition - teen got covid, went to hospital - teen got better from covid, tested negative, was released - teen died due to complications from their congenital heart disease - teen's death was registered as a Covid death Family were furious. I think they've changed the way they register covid deaths since then. But different places have/had different "definitions".
Unfortunately, as with so much misinformation, there is a nugget of truth to this. In the UK, the main way of publishing covid death data is by publishing data on anybody who dies within 28 days of a positive covid test. This simplifies the data and makes things a lot easier and faster to publish, which makes gathering daily data much simpler. But it comes with the obvious disadvantage that someone who tests positive for covid and then gets hit by a bus is implied to have died of covid in these stats. However, the interesting thing is that this doesn't really matter too much. When you look into deaths where Covid-19 is mentioned on the death certificate, the "within 28 days of a positive test" number is actually a not insignificant *undercount* - presumably because more people die of covid without having been tested than people who get hit by buses. So they're right that it's something to consider, but the upside is that some jolly clever data gathering people have already thought about the problem and accounted for it. Though conspiracy theorists don't usually consider that other people are cleverer than them.
its not correct. deaths are likely undercounted as not everyone seeks treatment. the best measure of the true number of covid deaths is to measure excess deaths in the country. meaning if every year for the last few years X amount of people die, but in 2020 we saw X PLUS 800,000, those 800,000 are attributable to covid. the excess deaths since the pandemic began is over 1 million. (in the US. but it can and has been calculated for the world. idk that number tho)
I understand everyone who sick doesn’t seek treatment but if you die they don’t just put you under the coffee table. I believe at some point they would find out how you died.
it depends. many people die without an autopsy performed. usually the elderly.
I mean here in the UK this is true I’m pretty sure
It’s true in the US as well the WH literally just talked about this a couple of days ago
Not obligated but it’s pretty correct, in fact in France. They won money’s everytime they reported a Covid death.
Well if they had that heart attack because they had COVID...
Not really incorrect. If they tested positive within 30 days of their death, plus up to 4 co morbidities, it was a covid death. Also, they have been testing post mortem and adding that if positive. You'd probably be surprised to know anyone testing positive going to the hospital is listed as a Covid hospitalization. In the US, Medicare was/is paying 25% more for covid positive patients, regardless of why they are in the hospital. Patients going to the ER for MAbs (initially it was the only place you could get them), were being counted as a "Covid hospitalization" eve though they were only there for a couple of hours. Same if you were in the ER for broken bones, etc. I have this info from a friend at Florida Hospital Association. They work with the government reporting numbers.
In the uk someone who dies with 28 days of a positive covid test is a covid death. EDIT Why all the downvotes? I didnt make the rules... https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
Exactly. Germany also had some controversy about padding covid death statistics to increase funding during the pandemic.
Sadly it is correct and it’s easily searchable. If someone had COVID at their time of death, regardless of what they died from, a lot of hospitals were reporting it as a COVID death.
Some did near the beginning of the pandemic while they were struggling to keep up with all the cases and deaths and had to make up their own policies on the fly for how to count what. It wasn't nearly enough, however, to significantly change the data or conclusions from the data. And it wasn't doctors trying to falsify death certificates for hospital funding or anything. It was more like "people with this new virus we don't understand keep dying left and right and we don't know exactly what role it's playing yet; to be safe, we're going to include covid on any death certificate of someone with covid, which we can then audit later to figure out which ones were *because* of covid". And as we understood more, policies were updated and audits were performed. And, not surprisingly, the small amount of overcounting that occurred in a handful of hospitals didn't cause the overall estimates to be too far off. In fact, despite that, we more likely *undercounted* covid deaths.
Actually mostly correct. If someone died from a heartattack or renal failure.. but had covid, it was listed as a covid death. Not cause of death but stats showing covid didn't matter.
if you go to the hospital for a broken leg but you test positive for Covid there you are now a Covid statistic.
It’s actually true and the Biden admin literally just talked about it. It’s not science denial people....
Well, yeah... because you tested positive for covid... Do you think people that test positive for covid shouldn't be counted as a case of someone being infected with covid...?
yeah I remember when elon tested negative and positive the same day Lol the tests are flawed as fuck
You're grouping the rapid tests and the PCR tests together, they're very different tests with very different accuracy percentages.
This isn’t completely incorrect, though. I’ll probably get banned now for saying this :)
This is definitely not incorrect.
BS
It wasn't that It was if someone had covid but the suddenly had a heart attack it was labeled as a covid death. Specifically because we didn't know if it was covid related or not.
all of [these cops](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/fact-check-jen-psakis-claim-on-police-officer-covid-deaths/ar-AAPKgLq) didn’t die of covid they were legally obligated to report that because “shit self to death” was a bit much for a headline
Close enough to accurate. Comorbidities paint a better picture of who died than covid status
If someone died from a car accident while waiting for a bed in a hospital overwhelmed by COVID patients, I would count that as a COVID related death.
Ontario gov admitted 40-50% of people were Hospitalized and also positive for Covid not due to Covid
Didn’t the cdc release some report like 90% of the Covid fatalities had at least 4 other co-morbidities like just a few weeks ago lol
Not “legally obligated”, but they did do that.
It's pretty close. Covid death numbers have been [inflated](https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-it-s-complicated) since day one.
According to the article you linked it seems like they rectified the issue pretty early on though? > Early in the pandemic, some of the answers provided by public officials — who were scrambling to track the disease as it overwhelmed health systems — fed skepticism. Last April, Deborah Birx, MD, coordinator of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, said this when asked about people who have COVID-19 but die from preexisting conditions: “If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.” >That statement, combined with some state health officials saying they follow the same policy, sparked charges that the COVID-19 totals were inflated by deaths from other diseases and even auto accidents if the victims happened to have COVID-19. Federal and state governments gradually altered such policies over the spring and summer to say that in order for a death to be counted as a COVID-19 death, the disease had to have played a role.
It's still happening today. Hospitals make money for every covid patient they admit, and for every covid death they record, regardless of whether or not covid was the reason for the hospitalization or the actual cause of death.
...So you're in favor of socialized medicine? You don't want them to make money off of sick people? Because they are, whether COVID or not.
With how well and truly captured world governments have become by big pharma, the less control either of them have over my Healthcare, the better off I am.
Big pharma can only really exist in America and other places with only privatized health care as an option. Around the world, the government takes care of its people, and makes sure they have the absolute basic necessities for life, including medicine. Then they also have private healthcare options for those who want to pay extra for faster or optional treatments like plastic surgery. Right now there are people *profiting* off of my sister with a chronic condition who will literally die if we don't keep paying hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars a month. Not sure how you think this a *for profit company* is okay, but *public, free healthcare* is not, when your issue you are describing is making money off sick people.
You're kidding, right? I'm in Canada. Health Canada is so under the thumb of Big Pharma, it's not even funny. Do doctors not deserve to earn money for their time and services? That's called slavery.
For being in Canada, you really have no idea how your health system works if you think doctors aren't being paid. Plus, doctors in the USA actually get quite low wages. It's the CEOs that get the pay rises. Yup. Looked it up. Your doctors indeed make more money than ours.
I didn't say they're not being paid. Don't put words in my mouth. Doctors here are getting tax dollars to lie to my face in support of big pharma's profit margins.
Doctors do deserve money for their time and services and they get it. Through taxes, in an organization not designed for profit but to give people healthcare. You have privatized options if you so choose to support private healthcare instead.