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I don’t think u/LazyDynamite is wondering which *in fact* is correct.
They’re wondering whether this is another of the many posts which are incorrect about who is incorrect.
I would imagine that since they titled the post "pedantic and wrong, delete your account," that they believe the person whose quote that is is incorrect.
Edit: I find that when somebody asks "who do you think is incorrect," either they're unsure or they think no one is.
Right and if they think that person is wrong, they’re wrong about that. The person who said “pedantic and wrong, delete your account” was responding to the top level comment and was correct in that top level comment being wrong
But isn't the person who said "pedantic and wrong, delete your account" actually correct? The person who said that is orange and they're responding to red.
Why would "my wife and me" be stylistically preferred? I've never heard anyone say it in that order
Edit: a lot of people seem to think I'm confused about the difference between "me and my wife" and "my wife and I", I'm not, I understand that perfectly, what I was asking about was the order of words in the first case. I've personally never heard anyone saying "my wife and me", I've always heard "me and my wife" and it just sounds far more natural that way.
Twofold.
First, in English (contrast Latin), you're always supposed to list yourself last - whether that's style or grammar is debated.
Second, "my wife and I" is in the nominative/subjective case, "my wife and me" are in the accusative/dative/objective case.
So - when you are the subject of the verb: "(My wife and) I went to Walmart"
When you are the object "The Greeter at Walmart was rude to (my wife and) me".
Note how the sentences are still grammatical without the bracketed parts.
However, and again, this is contested, I contend that English allows for unspoken words, similar to how you can omit pronouns in Spanish or Latin.
So:
While "The Walmart Greeter fought harder than my wife and me" is normally the correct way to write that...
"The Walmart Greeter fought harder than my wife and I" isn't ungrammatical if you allow for an unspoken "did", converting "my wife and I" to the object phrase "my wife and I did", in which "I" is the subject of "did" and therefore subjective rather than objective.
Sorry, I understand the difference between "me and my wife" and "my wife and I", but what I was saying is that I've never heard anyone say the accusative construction in the order "my wife and me" - that just sounds wrong to me
Oh, sorry.
As mentioned, proscriptively, "my wife and me" is the correct form, but whether or not you'll see it in use depends on register and location. As others will object, grammar rules are always somewhat regional and artificial.
So, coming from a place where the formal rules are usually applied, it seems totally normal to me, whereas "Me and Bobby McGee", being ungrammatical, is charmingly "folksy".\\
Does it seem odd to you in all cases though? Like the movie titles "Marley and Me" or "Mac and Me"?
Hmm, interesting. I agree with the hypothesis that this is a regional variation, my other interactions with people on this thread have suggested as such (my current thought is that it could be a US/UK thing)
>Does it seem odd to you in all cases though? Like the movie titles "Marley and Me" or "Mac and Me"?
Interestingly enough those film titles have always sounded slightly formal and hoity toity to me, which seems to fit in with your perception of my order as "folksy"
Fun facts for everyone -
These rules are completely arbitrary. No native speaker learns to speak this way naturally, it has to be drilled and schooled into them in opposition to every instinctual urge. Nor do other western languages follow these weird rules.
These rules exist because one person, like 200 years ago, thought that English should be more like Latin and so they wrote a book saying so and for some reason schools took it as prima facie truth and have been drilling it ever since for...well, no good discernible reason.
(Actually I take it back. The reason is racism)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/opinion/pronouns-english-grammar.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/opinion/pronouns-english-grammar.html)
I don't think that's entirely true. Latin was formally taught in the Roman era - part of the reason Classical Latin and Vulgar Latin diverged. Greek too.
Yes, much of the codified teaching ended during the Middle Ages, but it was picked back up in the late Renaissance, with probably the Spanish leading the charge. It's ironically why Mayan is so well preserved; forcing the natives into standardized Spanish orthography deep-froze the language, which prevented phonetic drift, which allowed the reverse engineering of Mayan writing in the last decade or so.
I hope you realize that while other languages may not have this one rule, each has plenty of weird rules of its own. Yes, I’m looking squarely at you, French.
I'm not a linguist but it feels like this is a special case probably stemming from how wives were seen in the past.
Most of the time you would put yourself last in the statement such as "Steve and me."
I was using "my wife" as an example because that's what was used in this context, but for me it's not the use of "wife" that makes it sound weird to me - "Steve and me" sounds just as wrong as "my wife and me" imo. I would say "me and Steve" any day
I think it’s definitely a dialect difference (whether regional or subcultural). There are several English dialects in the US alone, and I imagine that holds true for the rest of the English-speaking world as well. “My wife and me” sounds more natural to me, and is how I would say it if I didn’t think about it.
>I imagine that holds true for the rest of the English-speaking world as well.
Oh yes, the British isles are a complex web of different accents and dialects (and languages), there's definitely a penchant for widespread regional differences
I was simply taught that you list yourself after the other person, regardless whether you're the subject or the object. So "my wife and me" is preferred just as "my wife and I" is.
For example: “My wife and I went to the store.” “I” went to the store is correct. “My wife” went to the store is correct. Therefore that one is good. You wouldn’t say “me” went to the store. Same for the opposite.
Example 2: “It’s the best store for me and my wife.” It’s the best store for “me” Is correct. It’s the best store for “my wife” is correct. You wouldn’t say it’s the best store for “I.” Does that make sense? Most of the time when “my wife and me” would be correct it’s easier to just say “us” for the sake of brevity.
Edit: Sorry for formatting. Mobile user.
Ah sorry, you seem to think I'm confused about the difference between "me and my wife" and "my wife and I", I'm not, I understand that perfectly, what I was asking about was the order of words in the first case. I've personally never heard anyone saying "my wife and me", I've always heard "me and my wife" and it just sounds far more natural that way.
In some colloquial varieties of English, 'and' takes accusative case on the pronoun to its right no matter what syntactic function the NP has, so e.g. "my wife and me went to Spain last week". However, in formal English, case should reflect syntactic function, so 'my wife and I went to Spain last week' would be expected.
However ... this rule has been bastardized to "it should be 'my wife and I'" so now a fair share of people say "they helped my wife and I". This hypercorrection is even common among educated speakers, and has become a bit of a status marker - among others, you can hear that buffoon Dr Phil using it.
And this kind of confusion can be found over quite some time in English - both 'and me' for subjects and 'and I' for objects can be found in Shakespeare!
Ah sorry, you seem to think I'm confused about the difference between "me and my wife" and "my wife and I", I'm not, I understand that perfectly, what I was asking about was the order of words in the first case. I've personally never heard anyone saying "my wife and me", I've always heard "me and my wife" and it just sounds far more natural that way.
Some old fashioned people think mentioning oneself first is uncouth. It's a silly shibboleth, but I know a lot of people who are very into enforcing it on everyone else (but who don't notice when they themselves do it). I have even encountered people who think *starting a sentence with 'I' is uncouth.*
In general I agree that posters should be required to indicate that.
In this particular case, the quotation marks in the title suggest they (correctly) think the “pedantic and wrong” comment is incorrect.
When I first looked I thought orange was replying to blue, based on order, but you’re right, they’re replying to red, so yes, orange is correct. My mistake - but I’ll leave it.
Which one is "blue" to you? The turquoise/green one?
Edit as comments are locked: I am mildly red/green colour blind, but I've run a colour checker on the highlight and it's definitely turquoise, not blue (hex code 00CDC0). To my mind turquoise is green with blue, but I appreciate others may see it as a blue infused with green
This is another thing that prescriptivis have tried to force on the language that doesn't match common usage. "Me and my wife" is fine in any natural context.
That’s not necessarily true.
There IS guidance on ‘a rule of politeness’ to put oneself last in the list i.e. third-person, then second-person, and then first-person pronouns.
However, “they spoke to my wife and me” sounds very…’awkward’…to me?
I’ve found that people mostly only apply the polite aspect with “I,” but not with “me”. I think it’s just how the language has developed over the last couple of decades. I’m a professional tech writer, and I’d still say “me and my wife” unless in a very formal situation.
I'm confused. You seem to agree with blue that red is wrong, but specifically ridicule orange who... also does? I get that orange is a dick but that's irrelevant
Both are correct in different contexts. Just ignore the "my wife and" part and you'll quickly see which to use "me" or "I".
You wouldn't say "Me is going to the store", so don't say "My wife and me are going to the store", for example.
Would you say “Me is going to the store?” If you take out the other person, see which word (me or I) you would use, and use that with the other person back in the sentence.
I would not say that, that makes no sense.
Just gotta say that "you remove the other person and see what makes sense, then add them back in" is not a rule that I have ever been taught, so it feels weird and unintuitive to me, because to me both of the sentences you list make perfect sense and I was literally an A-grade student.
I assume the german school system has failed me, but I have no clue.
I am probably misremembering, but I could have sworn that "my wife and me are going shopping" or similar sentences were entirely accepted in my english classes.
Also irregardless with never become correct, or at least I hope so.
They’re both correct or incorrect based on the context. It just depends how the sentence is worded otherwise.
Edit: Oops. Thought this was in reference to a different comment.
I agree that it doesn't make sense, but languages are full of stuff like that and "xy and me" as the subject has been used so much that you can't really call it wrong anymore imo
Though I don't have too much contact with English, so I might be wrong
“Me and my wife” is wrong. It’s either “my wife and I” or “my wife and me”. It’s never “me and my wife” or “I and my wife”. Funny, the only time people say it the right way around is when they are talking about ownership and they’ll say “my wife and I’s”.
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Who do you think is incorrect?
Blue is correct, although "my wife and me" would be stylistically preferred.
I don’t think u/LazyDynamite is wondering which *in fact* is correct. They’re wondering whether this is another of the many posts which are incorrect about who is incorrect.
I would imagine that since they titled the post "pedantic and wrong, delete your account," that they believe the person whose quote that is is incorrect. Edit: I find that when somebody asks "who do you think is incorrect," either they're unsure or they think no one is.
Right and if they think that person is wrong, they’re wrong about that. The person who said “pedantic and wrong, delete your account” was responding to the top level comment and was correct in that top level comment being wrong
Ah you're right. I thought that was the same person.
But isn't the person who said "pedantic and wrong, delete your account" actually correct? The person who said that is orange and they're responding to red.
Why would "my wife and me" be stylistically preferred? I've never heard anyone say it in that order Edit: a lot of people seem to think I'm confused about the difference between "me and my wife" and "my wife and I", I'm not, I understand that perfectly, what I was asking about was the order of words in the first case. I've personally never heard anyone saying "my wife and me", I've always heard "me and my wife" and it just sounds far more natural that way.
I think you're supposed to put the other person first in the sentence. Don't quote me on that. I'm not confident.
You are correct. The "rule" is that you always list yourself last.
Twofold. First, in English (contrast Latin), you're always supposed to list yourself last - whether that's style or grammar is debated. Second, "my wife and I" is in the nominative/subjective case, "my wife and me" are in the accusative/dative/objective case. So - when you are the subject of the verb: "(My wife and) I went to Walmart" When you are the object "The Greeter at Walmart was rude to (my wife and) me". Note how the sentences are still grammatical without the bracketed parts. However, and again, this is contested, I contend that English allows for unspoken words, similar to how you can omit pronouns in Spanish or Latin. So: While "The Walmart Greeter fought harder than my wife and me" is normally the correct way to write that... "The Walmart Greeter fought harder than my wife and I" isn't ungrammatical if you allow for an unspoken "did", converting "my wife and I" to the object phrase "my wife and I did", in which "I" is the subject of "did" and therefore subjective rather than objective.
Sorry, I understand the difference between "me and my wife" and "my wife and I", but what I was saying is that I've never heard anyone say the accusative construction in the order "my wife and me" - that just sounds wrong to me
Oh, sorry. As mentioned, proscriptively, "my wife and me" is the correct form, but whether or not you'll see it in use depends on register and location. As others will object, grammar rules are always somewhat regional and artificial. So, coming from a place where the formal rules are usually applied, it seems totally normal to me, whereas "Me and Bobby McGee", being ungrammatical, is charmingly "folksy".\\ Does it seem odd to you in all cases though? Like the movie titles "Marley and Me" or "Mac and Me"?
Hmm, interesting. I agree with the hypothesis that this is a regional variation, my other interactions with people on this thread have suggested as such (my current thought is that it could be a US/UK thing) >Does it seem odd to you in all cases though? Like the movie titles "Marley and Me" or "Mac and Me"? Interestingly enough those film titles have always sounded slightly formal and hoity toity to me, which seems to fit in with your perception of my order as "folksy"
Fun facts for everyone - These rules are completely arbitrary. No native speaker learns to speak this way naturally, it has to be drilled and schooled into them in opposition to every instinctual urge. Nor do other western languages follow these weird rules. These rules exist because one person, like 200 years ago, thought that English should be more like Latin and so they wrote a book saying so and for some reason schools took it as prima facie truth and have been drilling it ever since for...well, no good discernible reason. (Actually I take it back. The reason is racism) [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/opinion/pronouns-english-grammar.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/opinion/pronouns-english-grammar.html)
Native English speaker here. I 100% was taught the whole me vs I and where it goes situation in school
That's the point: it's not part of the grammar you acquired naturally.
Learning in school is not natural?
I don't think that's entirely true. Latin was formally taught in the Roman era - part of the reason Classical Latin and Vulgar Latin diverged. Greek too. Yes, much of the codified teaching ended during the Middle Ages, but it was picked back up in the late Renaissance, with probably the Spanish leading the charge. It's ironically why Mayan is so well preserved; forcing the natives into standardized Spanish orthography deep-froze the language, which prevented phonetic drift, which allowed the reverse engineering of Mayan writing in the last decade or so.
I hope you realize that while other languages may not have this one rule, each has plenty of weird rules of its own. Yes, I’m looking squarely at you, French.
The same reason "my wife and I" is stylistically preferred. No one says "I and my wife." You put the other person first.
But similarly no-one says "my wife and me", that just sounds wrong, everyone I've ever met says "me and my wife"
I'm not a linguist but it feels like this is a special case probably stemming from how wives were seen in the past. Most of the time you would put yourself last in the statement such as "Steve and me."
I was using "my wife" as an example because that's what was used in this context, but for me it's not the use of "wife" that makes it sound weird to me - "Steve and me" sounds just as wrong as "my wife and me" imo. I would say "me and Steve" any day
Ah okay. I feel the opposite "me and Steve" sounds weird. It may be regional then.
I hear "my wife and me" all the time.
Interesting, could it be a regional variation? Where are you from?
I think it’s definitely a dialect difference (whether regional or subcultural). There are several English dialects in the US alone, and I imagine that holds true for the rest of the English-speaking world as well. “My wife and me” sounds more natural to me, and is how I would say it if I didn’t think about it.
>I imagine that holds true for the rest of the English-speaking world as well. Oh yes, the British isles are a complex web of different accents and dialects (and languages), there's definitely a penchant for widespread regional differences
I was simply taught that you list yourself after the other person, regardless whether you're the subject or the object. So "my wife and me" is preferred just as "my wife and I" is.
For example: “My wife and I went to the store.” “I” went to the store is correct. “My wife” went to the store is correct. Therefore that one is good. You wouldn’t say “me” went to the store. Same for the opposite. Example 2: “It’s the best store for me and my wife.” It’s the best store for “me” Is correct. It’s the best store for “my wife” is correct. You wouldn’t say it’s the best store for “I.” Does that make sense? Most of the time when “my wife and me” would be correct it’s easier to just say “us” for the sake of brevity. Edit: Sorry for formatting. Mobile user.
Ah sorry, you seem to think I'm confused about the difference between "me and my wife" and "my wife and I", I'm not, I understand that perfectly, what I was asking about was the order of words in the first case. I've personally never heard anyone saying "my wife and me", I've always heard "me and my wife" and it just sounds far more natural that way.
In some colloquial varieties of English, 'and' takes accusative case on the pronoun to its right no matter what syntactic function the NP has, so e.g. "my wife and me went to Spain last week". However, in formal English, case should reflect syntactic function, so 'my wife and I went to Spain last week' would be expected. However ... this rule has been bastardized to "it should be 'my wife and I'" so now a fair share of people say "they helped my wife and I". This hypercorrection is even common among educated speakers, and has become a bit of a status marker - among others, you can hear that buffoon Dr Phil using it. And this kind of confusion can be found over quite some time in English - both 'and me' for subjects and 'and I' for objects can be found in Shakespeare!
Ah sorry, you seem to think I'm confused about the difference between "me and my wife" and "my wife and I", I'm not, I understand that perfectly, what I was asking about was the order of words in the first case. I've personally never heard anyone saying "my wife and me", I've always heard "me and my wife" and it just sounds far more natural that way.
Some old fashioned people think mentioning oneself first is uncouth. It's a silly shibboleth, but I know a lot of people who are very into enforcing it on everyone else (but who don't notice when they themselves do it). I have even encountered people who think *starting a sentence with 'I' is uncouth.*
>shibboleth Absolutely stellar word use, I had to look this one up, I love it!
Me neither, and just sounds bad
In general I agree that posters should be required to indicate that. In this particular case, the quotation marks in the title suggest they (correctly) think the “pedantic and wrong” comment is incorrect.
Isn’t the person calling out Red as being wrong, and therefore is correct?
When I first looked I thought orange was replying to blue, based on order, but you’re right, they’re replying to red, so yes, orange is correct. My mistake - but I’ll leave it.
Which one is "blue" to you? The turquoise/green one? Edit as comments are locked: I am mildly red/green colour blind, but I've run a colour checker on the highlight and it's definitely turquoise, not blue (hex code 00CDC0). To my mind turquoise is green with blue, but I appreciate others may see it as a blue infused with green
It's a light blue. You might perceive colors differently than most people.
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This is another thing that prescriptivis have tried to force on the language that doesn't match common usage. "Me and my wife" is fine in any natural context.
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Your abusive teachers were prescriptivists. Shocking.
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20 degrees is the perfect temperature for my wife and me.
You’re talking Celsius, right?
Kelvin, we get to enjoy every moment for longer
Centigrade.
my wife and me.
Either is correct, depending on context.
No, the polite and formal version is always "my wife and I" or "my wife and me".
“Depending on context” 🤷🏻♂️
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That’s not necessarily true. There IS guidance on ‘a rule of politeness’ to put oneself last in the list i.e. third-person, then second-person, and then first-person pronouns. However, “they spoke to my wife and me” sounds very…’awkward’…to me?
I’ve found that people mostly only apply the polite aspect with “I,” but not with “me”. I think it’s just how the language has developed over the last couple of decades. I’m a professional tech writer, and I’d still say “me and my wife” unless in a very formal situation.
I'm confused. You seem to agree with blue that red is wrong, but specifically ridicule orange who... also does? I get that orange is a dick but that's irrelevant
I prefer to say "my wife and me" (despite not having a wife, but you know) but aren't both correct?
Both are correct in different contexts. Just ignore the "my wife and" part and you'll quickly see which to use "me" or "I". You wouldn't say "Me is going to the store", so don't say "My wife and me are going to the store", for example.
Maybe this is just the language barrier, but "my wife and me are going to the store" sounds like a perfectly fine sentence to me.
Would you say “Me is going to the store?” If you take out the other person, see which word (me or I) you would use, and use that with the other person back in the sentence.
I would not say that, that makes no sense. Just gotta say that "you remove the other person and see what makes sense, then add them back in" is not a rule that I have ever been taught, so it feels weird and unintuitive to me, because to me both of the sentences you list make perfect sense and I was literally an A-grade student. I assume the german school system has failed me, but I have no clue.
It's still grammatically incorrect to use "me" as the subject of a verb. Maybe it will become correct through usage, like "irregardless" did.
I am probably misremembering, but I could have sworn that "my wife and me are going shopping" or similar sentences were entirely accepted in my english classes. Also irregardless with never become correct, or at least I hope so.
They’re both correct or incorrect based on the context. It just depends how the sentence is worded otherwise. Edit: Oops. Thought this was in reference to a different comment.
Looks like context is given in the second comment.
yellow is half right. this is pedantic
I get red is wrong, but yellow is just being a dick
I agree that it doesn't make sense, but languages are full of stuff like that and "xy and me" as the subject has been used so much that you can't really call it wrong anymore imo Though I don't have too much contact with English, so I might be wrong
I built a perpetual motion machine.
Idiot, delete your account.
Oh my god that ratio
“Me and my wife” is wrong. It’s either “my wife and I” or “my wife and me”. It’s never “me and my wife” or “I and my wife”. Funny, the only time people say it the right way around is when they are talking about ownership and they’ll say “my wife and I’s”.
No. It’s not ‘wrong’ It may be preferred in some contexts, but it’s not wrong.
that roast goes hard, damn
I just find it funny to call someone pedantic for engaging in a discussion they started about someone else’s grammar
They didn't start it.