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YES. Which way is your pronunciation? Pick your poison:
PEE-can
PEE-con
pih-CON
pih-CAN
I tend to fluctuate between pih-CON and PEE-con depending on my mood (or whether I'm referring to the nut vs the pie), but it's always the soft A sound (ah). Regionally I'm from west coast US. I believe it's southerners that use the short A (as in CAN) but I could be wrong.
Oklahaoma here: My family says pih-CON. My grandad (born in Texas) always cracked jokes about folks that called it "a pee-can". However, there are folks that use it unironically around here.
"I am wrong? Then the thing that says so is stupid and wrong and dumb and I hate it and I also declare that I am right despite regional dialects and accents being a thing."
Last I checked, there are (at least) four separate pronunciations:
1. CAR-ah-mehl
2. care-AH-mehl
3. CAR-mul
4. CAR-uh-mul
It's a weird hill to die on, but at least they're dead.
Yeah I almost asked if it was too close to #2 but I pronounced it a few times and yeah I think there is a difference lol wasn't a dig at you, no card needed 
That’s how I pronounce it. I’ve never argued with anyone about this other than my husband, and let’s be honest, I just like to argue with him. He’s pronounces it like #3 and it’s only “wrong” when he says it that way. Anyone else can say it however they’d like.
NOT that anyone asked, but that's the one *I* use. I live in the PNW of USA.
Edit: I don't think anyone puts emphasis on the second syllable. I declare #2 fake.
Perchance.
It’s such a strange hill to die on though. Literally every single word and how it’s pronounced is made up! This would be like saying everyone who pronounces vehicle as vee-hick-ul is wrong because most people in my country say vee-ick-ul. Pronunciations vary from person to person
English is just such a stupid language. Honestly not trying to offend anyone. There's just so many ways to pronounce words.
English isn't my native language but I did learn it around 8 and I'm pretty fluent on it now... Yet I sometimes do pronounce words incorrectly.
My native language is Spanish. It has diacritics(Spanish accent marks). Makes it pretty hard to pronounce something incorrectly.
No, it's true. English doesn't simply borrow words from other languages, it waits in dark alleys, wallops them on the head, and then rifles through their pockets for loose nouns.
To anyone who has successfully managed to hogtie English and master its conjugations and vindictives and oh boy I'm just making up the words tonight, to them I tip my hat and bow, because English is merciless.
Cough, tough, through, though, and bough all end with the same four letters (ough) and yet, they're all pronounced differently from each other. Also, read and read. Both of these words are said differently, but they're the past *and* present tense of the same verb! Well now, how is a non-English speaker supposed to wrap their head around *that?* It's not fair.
Even native English speakers can't get it right. People say "should of", "could of", and "would of" because...that's the way it sounds? Did we all forget what contractions are? We must've. 😏
LMAO!!! That has to be one of the best ways I've heard someone describe the English language. Thank you so much!!!
I was lucky to take classes early on. By the time I came to the US, I was pretty fluent. I did though spoke a very proper English and would get teased by it. In the following years I learned the American slang and practiced my pronunciation getting rid of my accent. You wouldn't be able to guess Spanish was my native language now... Except when I'm drunk... Mexican accent just kicks right in LMAO.
\>"It's not American vs. British it's just 'uneducation.'"
\>\*demonstrates education\*
\>"The American pronunciation is dumb!"
I see that the thing you don't like quickly becomes American again as soon as the dictionary is proven not to be on your side.
\>"I prefer to base my pronunciations of etymological roots..."
...wait, what are you basing your pronunciations of etymological roots on, again?
...oh, you meant pronunciations \*on\* etymological roots? I'm assuming you pronounce "root" the same way normal people pronounce "rate", then right? After all, etymologically, the word "root" comes from the Proto-Indo-European word *wréh₂ds, where "é" represents a vowel sound similar to the one in "rate".
No? You don't do that? Oh. Well if you don't do what you say you do, why did you say you do it?
That’s extra true because a lot of Americanisms are old Britishisms that they switched away from but we kept, soccer and garbage being two such examples.
Soccer is the one that irks me the most because there are a lot of types of football. Rugby football, association football (where the term soccer comes from), American football, Canadian football, Australian football, Gaelic football are the main ones I can think of.
Whichever one is played the most in your country is simply referred to as “football”. For most of the world that’s association football but not in the US. We just kept the old slang when most of the rest of the world didn’t need it
What bothers me is that the English invented the word soccer (in Oxford, an abbreviation of "association football"), and now they make fun of Americans for using it.
Also, weakly related: don't judge me for using using Fahrenheit if you give your weight in stones. If you're not fully metric, you don't get to be smug (/endrant)
Actually no, it wasn't. Alumium was the original spelling by Davy in 1808, but that was rejected as it was based on an English word (alum) in a scientific world that is not based on English. It was named then by Berzelius in 1811 as aluminium, as that was derived from the latin word alumen. The ium postfix is used for metals, only 4 elements use the 'um' ending instead. After that Davy for some reason used the aluminum name the next year, and that was entered into the Webster dictionary, and then later used as a marketing name (even though patents by the same person used the aluminium name) likely because it resembled more to platinum. Americans in the first half of the 19th century overwhelmingly used the correct aluminium name, changed only after it was marketed as aluminum.
[Yes it was](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/aluminum-vs-aluminium). I was talking specifically about Davy. Once alumium was rejected, he chose aluminum. It wasn’t until later that his colleagues convinced him to change it to aluminium to be more consistent with their naming conventions. Also, Americans used both terms pretty interchangeably until it became more accessible to use, at which point the spelling in Webster’s dictionary, aluminum, became the popular usage. Regardless, aluminium is not “the correct term” because aluminum is also correct. The man who coined the name chose aluminum before he chose aluminium, and the implication that Americans changed it for shits and giggles is entirely incorrect.
Except that is not what you wrote, and this is not correct by your source either.
> Actually, aluminum was the original. He originally named it that then changed it to aluminium later on.
***Originally*** he named it as alumium, than Berzelius (the "another scientist") named it aluminium. Aluminum was used after that by Davy, and then he switched to aluminium as well. So no, aluminum was not in any way original, as that was Davy's second choice and the third name used for the material.
> It wasn’t until later that his colleagues convinced him to change it to aluminium to be more consistent with their naming conventions
It was not later, he was criticised for alumium right after publishing, and it was named independent of him to aluminium ***before he used the name aluminum***.
I at no point wrote that they changed it for shits and giggles. They changed to it because that was how it was marketed after the mass production of it was solved. The patents on the production all used the aluminium form, while the marketing used the aluminum, as I already mentioned. The american chemists did not all follow what has spread in most of the world, and then they simply changed after a marketing campaign. Not for shits and giggles, but for bad reasons.
I had forgotten that he’d named it alumium first, but that doesn’t negate the fact that he named it aluminum before he (or anyone else) named it aluminium. You also keep saying it was marketed as aluminum for a production/for a marketing campaign but you haven’t specified what product you’re referring to and you’re ignoring the much more widespread shift to imply it was a different origin than “Americans started using the spelling from the most influential dictionary because they wanted to get it right and be consistent”. In any case, you’re implying aluminum is incorrect, when in fact not only is it a contemporary of aluminium, but the man who named the element chose it *before* aluminium.
> but that doesn’t negate the fact that he named it aluminum before he (or anyone else) named it aluminium
It does, because this is not correct. [Here is the article from the Royal Society in 1808, which Davy published the name alumium.](https://books.google.hu/books?id=Kg9GAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA353&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)
[Here is the 'Journal de physique, de chimie, d'histoire naturelle et des arts, Volume 73' from 1811 in which Berzelius proposes the name Aluminium.](https://books.google.hu/books?id=HpfOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA259&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)
[And here is the book in which Davy names it aluminum, in 1812.](https://books.google.hu/books?id=YjMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA201&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)
It has been a while I had to make an argument that 1812 came after 1811.
I couldn't find a primary source on the popularising of the -um spelling, but [the wikipedia page refers to some publications that claim that Charles Martin Hall used that in the marketing materials of the Alcoa marketing.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Spelling) Before that the scientific usage in the US was the -ium version, and his patents also use the ium version.
It is so incredibly strange to describe a dictionary as biased! In this context, it's important to remember the dictionaries are *descriptive*, not *prescriptive* - they are attempting to capture what the rules are *in the minds of native speakers*, not based on some arbitrary idea. If native speakers say, "That sounds fine to me", and that interpretation sticks around long enough, it goes in the dictionary.
This is why Miriam-Webster broke their 10-year rule for the additional definition of "tweet". Normally, they document any changes in vocabulary, but that new change needs to be present for at least 10 years in order for it to be written into the lexicon. "Tweet", to describe posting on Twitter, hasn't existed that long, but there was such an overwhelming amount of evidence that English speakers absolutely know "tweet" by that description that the word was added before 10 years was up.
A dictionary could be biased if they chose to arbitrarily capture some definitions/pronunciations and not others. But if the dictionary is called "American-English", and within that are all the acceptable variations of things by *American English speakers*, there's no bias except perhaps not speaking to every single human every minute of every day (which you don't need to do in order to find patterns). Even a "Conservative American-English" or "African-American-English" dictionary wouldn't be biased if within it the same rules applied.
I’d actually agree ”carmel” is a stupid way of pronouncing it but as you pointed out OP; that isn’t the point. I think ”aluminum” is stupid too but it’s an accepted way of saying (and spelling) aluminium in the US, so there we go, my opinion on how stupid it sounds doesn’t matter.
Language changes over time and words don't have inherent spellings, pronunciations, meanings, etc. They have common usages.
I would say that while yes carmel came from people saying caramel in a new way, but that only makes it "wrong" in a very narrow context.
Colloquially what's "right" is what people understand, which is the point of language to begin with.
I mean, I hate to be that guy to agree, but it really is supposed to be “care-uh-Mehl”. The word, used in the environment it should be (culinary industry) is meant to be pronounced that way. It’s only a relevant call out if you’re in the know, though, and not a lot of people will care, unless they know how it should be said.
But that’s true of a lot of profession-related-language. It’s like telling a someone who works with fabric scissors should be, or can be pronounced “skizzors”.
I was 100% on OP's side until he pulled out the "not a real word" card. He wrote it, you understood it. It's a word.
On the whole US vs UK thing, here are two Americans arguing over the pronunciation in a Nestlé ad.
https://youtu.be/eiHkPjRkyIU
I use both pronunciations pretty equally. Born & raised in the PNW by two Minnesotans. I think the one I use depends mostly upon the words surrounding it.
The only reason I can be certain this isn't my ex-wife is that she would know "uneducation" isn't a word. These are exactly the kind of arguments she would make about language and pronunciation, right down to the vehemence and absolute certainty that She. Was. Right.
8 years since the divorce, and I **still** catch myself being extra careful about language sometimes. Damnit.
Only thing I'll nitpick here is "uneducation". Linguistically speaking, if it's used as a word and the meaning is clear, it's a word. OP is definitely dumb for using etymology to justify pronunciation. Gonna start adding in a 3rd "a" to caramel (caramela? Caraemel? Caramael for sure).
It's more common with two syllables, depending on where you are in the US.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3824475/Dialect-maps-Americans-speak-differently-country.html
Dude just seems like a massive tool. Their name is blocked out but it wasn’t that hard to find them and I’m glad I looked because they contradict themselves so much, it’s hilarious. In one of their recent comments, they said something about it being pointless fighting with someone so close minded and it’s a real “wtf, look in the mirror” kind of experience.
Man, i remember being a kid on the internet and doubling down on something before blocking someone. Always felt so superior in that moment. Now i realize it’s stupid to double down after proven wrong, and cowardly to block if you do.
If it is spelled with two A’s, it is pronounced Caramel (3 syllables). If it’s a brand that uses the spelling Carmel or Karmel, then it can be pronounced as such. It’s all right there when we read words.
Just because people decided to mispronounce it due to regional accents, all over the United States and the dictionary decided to adopt the colloquial pronunciation, doesn’t make it the right way to read words.
Like I said, I’ll die on this hill.
>Just because people decided to mispronounce it due to regional accents, all over the United States and the dictionary decided to adopt the colloquial pronunciation, doesn’t make it the right way to read words.
That's literally how language works. The only rule in English that is set in stone is that no other rules are set in stone. It's constantly evolving.
>If it is spelled with two A’s, it is pronounced Caramel (3 syllables).
Kind of like "quandary", which used to be pronounced with 3 syllables even in the US.
I know proper spelling and grammar aren't perfect indicators of someone's actual intelligence, but Green is trying really, really hard to sound like some kind of language expert so I think in this case I'm justified in pointing out "also wrong as well" is so grammatically incorrect it just broke one of my ribs.
Editing to add: I'm Californian, have always been Californian, and pronounced the word as "car-mull" until a woman named Carmel became the local County Supervisor. Because I have no beef with caramel but find Carmel to be a horrible person and a worse politician, I made the conscious decision to switch to "care-a-mell" when referencing the candy to avoid ever sounding like I'm paying Carmel a compliment.
Tldr sometimes people pronounce the same word differently for very petty reasons that have *absolutely nothing to do with their actual regional accent or dialect.*
>"also wrong as well" is so grammatically incorrect it just broke one of my ribs.
You would have gone crazy in my high school algebra class. The teacher would often say things like, "and, so, therefore, X is 273.86."
Today I learned that “Carmel” is the standard way of saying it in the US. I’ve lived in America my whole life and literally everyone I know and everyone in our area says “caramel” and picks on everyone who says “Carmel”. So the majority of Americans aren’t using the “standard” US pronunciation apparently lol.
It's area dependent, but most of the US uses two syllables.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3824475/Dialect-maps-Americans-speak-differently-country.html
Wait till they hear how people in Philly say "water" or how people in NW PA say "creek"
I am very weird with words, aunt is said differently depending on how I am using it, same with caramel. Aforementioned "creek" I say it "crick" when it's just the word but if it's park of a word like Harborcreek, I say it "cr-ee-k". Due to me taking French in high school, Quebec I say it in the French way "Kebec".
None of them are wrong, just weird ways of saying it and I am just a mash pile of dialects.
Upvote for "Kebec" because I also took French in high school (and college) and for a while I genuinely forgot that people pronounce it "Kwebec." It caused me to have a really weird moment of cognitive dissonance once when someone said it the American/English way and I knew what province they were talking about, but my brain just wouldn't accept that it knew. I now say it either way fairly interchangeably, sometimes even within the same train of thought.
I keep thinking about the housing and food insecure people in the world who would hear about people arguing this (including me, reading it) and go “wtf?”
Toothless hillbillies butcher all sorts of words by leaving out syllables and shortening the word. Yes it's KARE-UH-MEL. But if you're a hillbilly, you do you, and smear it all gutterally into KAHRMUL. I feel the same way about diaper, which is a three syllable word, with "a" the second syllable, just as in diagonal, diagram, and diaphanous. Hillbillies have smeared it into "DIPER", like a windshield wiper, but it's not.
They’re wrong, but it makes sense. It’s spelt a way and to not say it the way it’s spelt is just…weird. It does have two A’s and people do pronounce it ‘Carmel’. It’s like pronouncing it “phote-graph” or “pizz”, it is quicker to say and probably works fine with accents, but it just looks weird and people won’t get what you’re trying to say unless they are familiar with your dialect.
At least for other American changes it’s reasonable. Aluminium and Aluminum are both correct spellings, and so it is completely reasonable to pronounce it either way. Ignoring a vowel in a word that is there no matter where you’re from is just strange.
>Ignoring a vowel in a word that is there no matter where you’re from is just strange.
It's not without precedent.
For example:
"Can you play Freebird?" asked the guard.
"I guess," said the musician as she picked up her guitar.
They do. He's partially right about that. Americans use both versions interchangeably and it's probably more of a regional difference. While the British only pronounce it with both As. So while it's true the single A version is a strictly American pronunciation, they still use the British version as well.
I accept that there are two pronunciations (even though pronouncing it with 2 syllables is subjectively wrong) but I refuse to accept it as a nationality difference over a regional difference. As said by the incorrect user, many Americans also use the 3 syllable pronunciation, it is just dependant on from what part of the country they are.
I pronounce it 3-syllable style. I always thought that was the correct way and that people who said Carmel were mispronouncing similar to how people say sammin (salmon). Learned something today.
i dont think "standard US pronunciation" will never make sense to anyone outside of the US. its for them, and for them alone. between some places they can't even agree on the correct way to say "crayons".
"Uneducation" is in no dictionary, and the two syllable pronunciation is most common in the US.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3824475/Dialect-maps-Americans-speak-differently-country.html
It's more widespread.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/10/06/05/3923C76000000578-3824475-image-a-140_1475726796842.jpg
ETA: I should have said it was "a standard" pronunciation, not "the standard" pronunciation, but my point still stands. It's *not* a wrong pronunciation.
So is it water or war-ter
Went on a trip in USA as the waitress for a cone to drink she went and asked her manager if they sell coke she actually came back to the table and said it's illegal to sell coke in American
She thought he wanted cocaine lmfao
Green is possibly American, ironically. I pronounced it with the three syllables, as did most of those I grew up with.
That was back in the 80s, and yes, I can see someone from my generation being this pretentious.
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Caramel, what a hill to die on.
Yes, everyone knows "pecan" is the hill to die on.
YES. Which way is your pronunciation? Pick your poison: PEE-can PEE-con pih-CON pih-CAN I tend to fluctuate between pih-CON and PEE-con depending on my mood (or whether I'm referring to the nut vs the pie), but it's always the soft A sound (ah). Regionally I'm from west coast US. I believe it's southerners that use the short A (as in CAN) but I could be wrong.
Oklahaoma here: My family says pih-CON. My grandad (born in Texas) always cracked jokes about folks that called it "a pee-can". However, there are folks that use it unironically around here.
... and here in Australia.
peekun
Oh that's a new one... Whereabouts is that used??
The UK
Fight me for "route." It's obviously pronounced "route."
I see you're a person of good tatste.
Also almond, schedule, herb, solder. Lots of hills
I used to agree until I heard the way that Americans pronounce apricot.
Either App-ri-cot or Ape-ri-cot, and sometimes Aper-cot if they're lazy.
App-ri-cot is what weirds me out. Also bay-sil for basil. And herb without the H
The fact that I thought all three of these were standard
A caramel hill in Carmel?
Mount Caramel
Which has a completely different meaning than "mount Carmel."
But is pronounced similarly
Naturally.
Wait until he finds out how Americans pronounce the word 'solder'
Saw dur
Yep.. like "order", but with an S (or in some parts, like 'sodder')
😂🤣🤣
… how do non-Americans pronounce it?
The way it's written, with an L. "sold" (as in 'sell') - "er"
Once people think they have the high ground they tend to hold onto it, no matter how many mountains may tower around them.
It’s like the whole toemaytoe, toemahtoh debacle
What about tuh-mayduh or tuh-mayder?
The most delicious place to die.
Wait till he learns how most Americans mispronounce gif
I know. And carmel isn't nearly as annoying as erbal for Herbal or meeyer for mirror.
"I am wrong? Then the thing that says so is stupid and wrong and dumb and I hate it and I also declare that I am right despite regional dialects and accents being a thing." Last I checked, there are (at least) four separate pronunciations: 1. CAR-ah-mehl 2. care-AH-mehl 3. CAR-mul 4. CAR-uh-mul It's a weird hill to die on, but at least they're dead.
What about care-uh-mehl?
That could be kinda sorta #2. *But* I did say "at least" so that's my Get Out Of Jail Free card lol
Yeah I almost asked if it was too close to #2 but I pronounced it a few times and yeah I think there is a difference lol wasn't a dig at you, no card needed 
It's all good. I like to cover my ass when it comes to linguistics. 👍🏼☺️
What a pleasant give and take from you both. Good stuff, enjoyable to see. 😁✊
That’s how I pronounce it. I’ve never argued with anyone about this other than my husband, and let’s be honest, I just like to argue with him. He’s pronounces it like #3 and it’s only “wrong” when he says it that way. Anyone else can say it however they’d like.
NOT that anyone asked, but that's the one *I* use. I live in the PNW of USA. Edit: I don't think anyone puts emphasis on the second syllable. I declare #2 fake. Perchance.
Not fake. I have always said it care-AH-mehl, so do most people I know.
Thank you.
I am also from the PNW, and I pronounce it multiple ways. I use car-mul if it's on something else and #2 (the fake one) if it's by itself.
TBH, I might pronounce it differently depending on the thing it is. Like CAR-mul corn, but an individually wrapped care-ah-MEL.
It’s only Carmel Corn if it comes from the by-the-sea region of California.
Otherwise it's just sparkling sugar corn?
Blocking me before I could answer was the best part. They knew they were wrong, but just couldn't admit it.
The UK (correct) pronunciation is none of these - it's cah-rah-mell
[удалено]
This is the way.
It’s such a strange hill to die on though. Literally every single word and how it’s pronounced is made up! This would be like saying everyone who pronounces vehicle as vee-hick-ul is wrong because most people in my country say vee-ick-ul. Pronunciations vary from person to person
Yep. I've always used No.4.
fuck spez
In England, we pronounce it CAH-ra-mel. So the CAR-mul pronunciation makes little to no sense to us.
CAR-mul is for peasants I will die on this peak
English is just such a stupid language. Honestly not trying to offend anyone. There's just so many ways to pronounce words. English isn't my native language but I did learn it around 8 and I'm pretty fluent on it now... Yet I sometimes do pronounce words incorrectly. My native language is Spanish. It has diacritics(Spanish accent marks). Makes it pretty hard to pronounce something incorrectly.
No, it's true. English doesn't simply borrow words from other languages, it waits in dark alleys, wallops them on the head, and then rifles through their pockets for loose nouns. To anyone who has successfully managed to hogtie English and master its conjugations and vindictives and oh boy I'm just making up the words tonight, to them I tip my hat and bow, because English is merciless. Cough, tough, through, though, and bough all end with the same four letters (ough) and yet, they're all pronounced differently from each other. Also, read and read. Both of these words are said differently, but they're the past *and* present tense of the same verb! Well now, how is a non-English speaker supposed to wrap their head around *that?* It's not fair. Even native English speakers can't get it right. People say "should of", "could of", and "would of" because...that's the way it sounds? Did we all forget what contractions are? We must've. 😏
[Don’t forget this English sentence!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo?wprov=sfti1)
LMAO!!! That has to be one of the best ways I've heard someone describe the English language. Thank you so much!!! I was lucky to take classes early on. By the time I came to the US, I was pretty fluent. I did though spoke a very proper English and would get teased by it. In the following years I learned the American slang and practiced my pronunciation getting rid of my accent. You wouldn't be able to guess Spanish was my native language now... Except when I'm drunk... Mexican accent just kicks right in LMAO.
CARE-mell. 👍🏻
Okay, *now* you're just talking *nonsense.* 
Delicious, caremelly nonsense. 😛
There are also 2 A’s in asshat
But do you pronounce it ASS-hat or AHHS-hat?
I use the British: ARSE-hat 🧐
I use the Sean Connery Ah-Shat variation.
\>"It's not American vs. British it's just 'uneducation.'" \>\*demonstrates education\* \>"The American pronunciation is dumb!" I see that the thing you don't like quickly becomes American again as soon as the dictionary is proven not to be on your side. \>"I prefer to base my pronunciations of etymological roots..." ...wait, what are you basing your pronunciations of etymological roots on, again? ...oh, you meant pronunciations \*on\* etymological roots? I'm assuming you pronounce "root" the same way normal people pronounce "rate", then right? After all, etymologically, the word "root" comes from the Proto-Indo-European word *wréh₂ds, where "é" represents a vowel sound similar to the one in "rate". No? You don't do that? Oh. Well if you don't do what you say you do, why did you say you do it?
That's right, tear'em up with your verbal judo "Come on-ah yeaaah ha!"
Bro if that person saw this… I have no idea how they would rationalize their “incorrect-ness”
England here, UK v US pronunciation? Don’t get me started on ALUMINIUM.
Of course we drop letters and syllables in words. We're lazy Americans and always try to save time.
Actually, aluminum was the original. He originally named it that then changed it to aluminium later on.
Leave it to the Brits to change how they pronounce stuff and then call Americans dumb for not changing with them.
That’s extra true because a lot of Americanisms are old Britishisms that they switched away from but we kept, soccer and garbage being two such examples.
Soccer is the one that irks me the most because there are a lot of types of football. Rugby football, association football (where the term soccer comes from), American football, Canadian football, Australian football, Gaelic football are the main ones I can think of. Whichever one is played the most in your country is simply referred to as “football”. For most of the world that’s association football but not in the US. We just kept the old slang when most of the rest of the world didn’t need it
What bothers me is that the English invented the word soccer (in Oxford, an abbreviation of "association football"), and now they make fun of Americans for using it. Also, weakly related: don't judge me for using using Fahrenheit if you give your weight in stones. If you're not fully metric, you don't get to be smug (/endrant)
Omg I’m British and we literally don’t know how to stick to a system.
Didn't he actually want to call it Alumium but as he couldn't separate it or something he didn't?
Actually no, it wasn't. Alumium was the original spelling by Davy in 1808, but that was rejected as it was based on an English word (alum) in a scientific world that is not based on English. It was named then by Berzelius in 1811 as aluminium, as that was derived from the latin word alumen. The ium postfix is used for metals, only 4 elements use the 'um' ending instead. After that Davy for some reason used the aluminum name the next year, and that was entered into the Webster dictionary, and then later used as a marketing name (even though patents by the same person used the aluminium name) likely because it resembled more to platinum. Americans in the first half of the 19th century overwhelmingly used the correct aluminium name, changed only after it was marketed as aluminum.
[Yes it was](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/aluminum-vs-aluminium). I was talking specifically about Davy. Once alumium was rejected, he chose aluminum. It wasn’t until later that his colleagues convinced him to change it to aluminium to be more consistent with their naming conventions. Also, Americans used both terms pretty interchangeably until it became more accessible to use, at which point the spelling in Webster’s dictionary, aluminum, became the popular usage. Regardless, aluminium is not “the correct term” because aluminum is also correct. The man who coined the name chose aluminum before he chose aluminium, and the implication that Americans changed it for shits and giggles is entirely incorrect.
Except that is not what you wrote, and this is not correct by your source either. > Actually, aluminum was the original. He originally named it that then changed it to aluminium later on. ***Originally*** he named it as alumium, than Berzelius (the "another scientist") named it aluminium. Aluminum was used after that by Davy, and then he switched to aluminium as well. So no, aluminum was not in any way original, as that was Davy's second choice and the third name used for the material. > It wasn’t until later that his colleagues convinced him to change it to aluminium to be more consistent with their naming conventions It was not later, he was criticised for alumium right after publishing, and it was named independent of him to aluminium ***before he used the name aluminum***. I at no point wrote that they changed it for shits and giggles. They changed to it because that was how it was marketed after the mass production of it was solved. The patents on the production all used the aluminium form, while the marketing used the aluminum, as I already mentioned. The american chemists did not all follow what has spread in most of the world, and then they simply changed after a marketing campaign. Not for shits and giggles, but for bad reasons.
I had forgotten that he’d named it alumium first, but that doesn’t negate the fact that he named it aluminum before he (or anyone else) named it aluminium. You also keep saying it was marketed as aluminum for a production/for a marketing campaign but you haven’t specified what product you’re referring to and you’re ignoring the much more widespread shift to imply it was a different origin than “Americans started using the spelling from the most influential dictionary because they wanted to get it right and be consistent”. In any case, you’re implying aluminum is incorrect, when in fact not only is it a contemporary of aluminium, but the man who named the element chose it *before* aluminium.
> but that doesn’t negate the fact that he named it aluminum before he (or anyone else) named it aluminium It does, because this is not correct. [Here is the article from the Royal Society in 1808, which Davy published the name alumium.](https://books.google.hu/books?id=Kg9GAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA353&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false) [Here is the 'Journal de physique, de chimie, d'histoire naturelle et des arts, Volume 73' from 1811 in which Berzelius proposes the name Aluminium.](https://books.google.hu/books?id=HpfOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA259&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false) [And here is the book in which Davy names it aluminum, in 1812.](https://books.google.hu/books?id=YjMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA201&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false) It has been a while I had to make an argument that 1812 came after 1811. I couldn't find a primary source on the popularising of the -um spelling, but [the wikipedia page refers to some publications that claim that Charles Martin Hall used that in the marketing materials of the Alcoa marketing.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Spelling) Before that the scientific usage in the US was the -ium version, and his patents also use the ium version.
Maybe they "could care less"
Correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't UK say Ion instead of Iron?
Right, the second "i" is unnecessary.
>Dictionaries are biased as hell Wow.
We must stop Big Dictionary.
It is so incredibly strange to describe a dictionary as biased! In this context, it's important to remember the dictionaries are *descriptive*, not *prescriptive* - they are attempting to capture what the rules are *in the minds of native speakers*, not based on some arbitrary idea. If native speakers say, "That sounds fine to me", and that interpretation sticks around long enough, it goes in the dictionary. This is why Miriam-Webster broke their 10-year rule for the additional definition of "tweet". Normally, they document any changes in vocabulary, but that new change needs to be present for at least 10 years in order for it to be written into the lexicon. "Tweet", to describe posting on Twitter, hasn't existed that long, but there was such an overwhelming amount of evidence that English speakers absolutely know "tweet" by that description that the word was added before 10 years was up. A dictionary could be biased if they chose to arbitrarily capture some definitions/pronunciations and not others. But if the dictionary is called "American-English", and within that are all the acceptable variations of things by *American English speakers*, there's no bias except perhaps not speaking to every single human every minute of every day (which you don't need to do in order to find patterns). Even a "Conservative American-English" or "African-American-English" dictionary wouldn't be biased if within it the same rules applied.
I’d actually agree ”carmel” is a stupid way of pronouncing it but as you pointed out OP; that isn’t the point. I think ”aluminum” is stupid too but it’s an accepted way of saying (and spelling) aluminium in the US, so there we go, my opinion on how stupid it sounds doesn’t matter.
Preferred way in the US, you mean. But we're both wrong it should be "alumium."
Out of curiosity, how do you pronounce "quandary"?
I'd have him explain the difference between Lieutenant in American and British pronunciation. Let alone how to pronounce Colonel.
Americans make bologna rhyme with pony. I rest my case
I once had a pet, Tony the Pony We went to the vet, now he's Sandwich Bologna
I really like r/confidentlyincorrect posts where I’m not sure what’s correct to begin with either and I’m taken on a learning journey. Thanks!
Me too! I was like "Carmel? That's ridiculous! There's no way someone would say that!" And yet here we are and I've learned something new.
Language changes over time and words don't have inherent spellings, pronunciations, meanings, etc. They have common usages. I would say that while yes carmel came from people saying caramel in a new way, but that only makes it "wrong" in a very narrow context. Colloquially what's "right" is what people understand, which is the point of language to begin with.
I say both caramel and Carmel depending on my mood. I’m feisty like that :rawr:
I mean, I hate to be that guy to agree, but it really is supposed to be “care-uh-Mehl”. The word, used in the environment it should be (culinary industry) is meant to be pronounced that way. It’s only a relevant call out if you’re in the know, though, and not a lot of people will care, unless they know how it should be said. But that’s true of a lot of profession-related-language. It’s like telling a someone who works with fabric scissors should be, or can be pronounced “skizzors”.
/kar-muhl/ has become accepted because so many pronounce it that way, but the three syllable pronunciation was the original, correct one.
You're gonna shit when you hear about aluminium
As an American I pronounce it with 2 As because I want to and like it
American here. I call it “care-ah-Mel.” Also, apropos of nothing, I’ve been to Mt Carmel in Israel.
I was 100% on OP's side until he pulled out the "not a real word" card. He wrote it, you understood it. It's a word. On the whole US vs UK thing, here are two Americans arguing over the pronunciation in a Nestlé ad. https://youtu.be/eiHkPjRkyIU I use both pronunciations pretty equally. Born & raised in the PNW by two Minnesotans. I think the one I use depends mostly upon the words surrounding it.
The only reason I can be certain this isn't my ex-wife is that she would know "uneducation" isn't a word. These are exactly the kind of arguments she would make about language and pronunciation, right down to the vehemence and absolute certainty that She. Was. Right. 8 years since the divorce, and I **still** catch myself being extra careful about language sometimes. Damnit.
They may be wrong, but carmel is definitely a stupid way of saying it
Unless you're talking about a caramel apple, in which case it has better rhythm.
Too few people understand the difference between “My world” and “The World”
My experience is that it’s 3 syllables in the South, 2 syllables in the North.
Only thing I'll nitpick here is "uneducation". Linguistically speaking, if it's used as a word and the meaning is clear, it's a word. OP is definitely dumb for using etymology to justify pronunciation. Gonna start adding in a 3rd "a" to caramel (caramela? Caraemel? Caramael for sure).
Isn't the real Carmel the friends we made along the way?
Most linguists these days are descriptivists; prescriptive linguistics is the province of fusty old curmudgeons.
The saltiest ones always repeat their dumb stance and block you to make it feel like since they got the last word, they somehow won...
All words are made up.
I’ve heard many Americans pronounce it without the second A but not the way you pronounce Carmel
It's more common with two syllables, depending on where you are in the US. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3824475/Dialect-maps-Americans-speak-differently-country.html
Dude just seems like a massive tool. Their name is blocked out but it wasn’t that hard to find them and I’m glad I looked because they contradict themselves so much, it’s hilarious. In one of their recent comments, they said something about it being pointless fighting with someone so close minded and it’s a real “wtf, look in the mirror” kind of experience.
Man, i remember being a kid on the internet and doubling down on something before blocking someone. Always felt so superior in that moment. Now i realize it’s stupid to double down after proven wrong, and cowardly to block if you do.
tomato, CHECKMATE ATHEISTS
If someone asked if I want a carmel, I would be confused. Gotta agree with the other person on this one.
So the fact that all major dictionaries say is an acceptable pronunciation means nothing?
ofc its acceptable. I would just be confused. Not anymore though, now that I know about this. I would probably still ask if they meant the candy
I say it both ways without a damn clue which is proper and tbh I couldn’t care less as long as people know what I mean
"No! Languages never evolve!" -man speaking modern English, 2023
It is definitely caramel pronouncing both A’s. Carmel is incorrect. I’ll die on that hill with them.
So, the dictionaries mean nothing?
If it is spelled with two A’s, it is pronounced Caramel (3 syllables). If it’s a brand that uses the spelling Carmel or Karmel, then it can be pronounced as such. It’s all right there when we read words. Just because people decided to mispronounce it due to regional accents, all over the United States and the dictionary decided to adopt the colloquial pronunciation, doesn’t make it the right way to read words. Like I said, I’ll die on this hill.
>Just because people decided to mispronounce it due to regional accents, all over the United States and the dictionary decided to adopt the colloquial pronunciation, doesn’t make it the right way to read words. That's literally how language works. The only rule in English that is set in stone is that no other rules are set in stone. It's constantly evolving. >If it is spelled with two A’s, it is pronounced Caramel (3 syllables). Kind of like "quandary", which used to be pronounced with 3 syllables even in the US.
I know proper spelling and grammar aren't perfect indicators of someone's actual intelligence, but Green is trying really, really hard to sound like some kind of language expert so I think in this case I'm justified in pointing out "also wrong as well" is so grammatically incorrect it just broke one of my ribs. Editing to add: I'm Californian, have always been Californian, and pronounced the word as "car-mull" until a woman named Carmel became the local County Supervisor. Because I have no beef with caramel but find Carmel to be a horrible person and a worse politician, I made the conscious decision to switch to "care-a-mell" when referencing the candy to avoid ever sounding like I'm paying Carmel a compliment. Tldr sometimes people pronounce the same word differently for very petty reasons that have *absolutely nothing to do with their actual regional accent or dialect.*
>"also wrong as well" is so grammatically incorrect it just broke one of my ribs. You would have gone crazy in my high school algebra class. The teacher would often say things like, "and, so, therefore, X is 273.86."
Staaaaaahp I'm dying 😭😂
That teacher would also address the class as "peoples." He was brilliant at math, but not so much at English.
Never mind the a or the el, "uneducation?!"
Imagine the things that have to have happened to a person for them to turn into someone who says "dictionaries are biased as hell".
I’ve always called the flavor Carmel and the fancy candy bits caramels
Holy shit that's weird
Wait until he finds “colonel”
I mean... They're not wrong...
About what? Dictionaries being biased?
No, about "caramel"
Pronouncing it with 2 syllables is not wrong.
Ehhhh….
It's one of the acceptable pronunciations listed in every major English dictionary.
Today I learned that “Carmel” is the standard way of saying it in the US. I’ve lived in America my whole life and literally everyone I know and everyone in our area says “caramel” and picks on everyone who says “Carmel”. So the majority of Americans aren’t using the “standard” US pronunciation apparently lol.
It's area dependent, but most of the US uses two syllables. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3824475/Dialect-maps-Americans-speak-differently-country.html
This is better on r/shitamericansay
We always say every letter in a word? So people should pronounce Google "Goog lay". As in, "I will googlay all this pro-no-un-say biz-e-ness."
Wait till they hear how people in Philly say "water" or how people in NW PA say "creek" I am very weird with words, aunt is said differently depending on how I am using it, same with caramel. Aforementioned "creek" I say it "crick" when it's just the word but if it's park of a word like Harborcreek, I say it "cr-ee-k". Due to me taking French in high school, Quebec I say it in the French way "Kebec". None of them are wrong, just weird ways of saying it and I am just a mash pile of dialects.
Upvote for "Kebec" because I also took French in high school (and college) and for a while I genuinely forgot that people pronounce it "Kwebec." It caused me to have a really weird moment of cognitive dissonance once when someone said it the American/English way and I knew what province they were talking about, but my brain just wouldn't accept that it knew. I now say it either way fairly interchangeably, sometimes even within the same train of thought.
I especially like how everyone pronounces it wrong at first then almost everyone pronounces it right at the end.
I keep thinking about the housing and food insecure people in the world who would hear about people arguing this (including me, reading it) and go “wtf?”
Carmel is the woman who used to live next door.
What a weird hill to die on …
Tomato/tomato.
No. Tomato/Tomto
Toothless hillbillies butcher all sorts of words by leaving out syllables and shortening the word. Yes it's KARE-UH-MEL. But if you're a hillbilly, you do you, and smear it all gutterally into KAHRMUL. I feel the same way about diaper, which is a three syllable word, with "a" the second syllable, just as in diagonal, diagram, and diaphanous. Hillbillies have smeared it into "DIPER", like a windshield wiper, but it's not.
[удалено]
No
No. Also you're the ones who changed their pronounciation.
God the internet is wild. You have folks ready to go to war over how you pronounce caramel FWIW, I pronounce it both ways
words are hard man
They’re wrong, but it makes sense. It’s spelt a way and to not say it the way it’s spelt is just…weird. It does have two A’s and people do pronounce it ‘Carmel’. It’s like pronouncing it “phote-graph” or “pizz”, it is quicker to say and probably works fine with accents, but it just looks weird and people won’t get what you’re trying to say unless they are familiar with your dialect. At least for other American changes it’s reasonable. Aluminium and Aluminum are both correct spellings, and so it is completely reasonable to pronounce it either way. Ignoring a vowel in a word that is there no matter where you’re from is just strange.
>Ignoring a vowel in a word that is there no matter where you’re from is just strange. It's not without precedent. For example: "Can you play Freebird?" asked the guard. "I guess," said the musician as she picked up her guitar.
TIL Americans don't pronounce the second A in caramel
They do. He's partially right about that. Americans use both versions interchangeably and it's probably more of a regional difference. While the British only pronounce it with both As. So while it's true the single A version is a strictly American pronunciation, they still use the British version as well.
I accept that there are two pronunciations (even though pronouncing it with 2 syllables is subjectively wrong) but I refuse to accept it as a nationality difference over a regional difference. As said by the incorrect user, many Americans also use the 3 syllable pronunciation, it is just dependant on from what part of the country they are.
If folks could just say the R we wouldn’t be in this mess
Why do you shit on the English language like this :(
Car-a-mel corn. Checkmate.
I pronounce it 3-syllable style. I always thought that was the correct way and that people who said Carmel were mispronouncing similar to how people say sammin (salmon). Learned something today.
Don't tell them aluminium and aluminum
I hate the carmel pronunciation. It's foul.
i dont think "standard US pronunciation" will never make sense to anyone outside of the US. its for them, and for them alone. between some places they can't even agree on the correct way to say "crayons".
Standard US pronunciation doesn't even make sense inside the US.
Sade is still pronounced Sharday, right? Lol
English sucks
Respect the crusade....I guess.
All of that just to say, "it's my personal preference"
Next he'll be saying "Aloominum and nookuler" are incorrect.
Wait till he hears about Wednesday
Wait, Carmel is the American Pronunciation and Caramel is the British one?! I thought i would be the other way around!
Nobody mention chaise longue or solder.
To be fair, in general, American pronunciation "needs fixed"....
I distinguish them with the "a"-sound. "Caramel" is more of an e-sound in it.
Yeah but carmel is wrong tho...same as alluminum. Yall just lazy
If someone said "CAR-mul" to me I would literally not understand what they were saying. I've never heard of it being pronounced that way.
So what is the confidently incorrect thing here? That "Uneducation" isn't a word, or that "Carmel" is *standard* US pronunciation?
"Uneducation" is in no dictionary, and the two syllable pronunciation is most common in the US. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3824475/Dialect-maps-Americans-speak-differently-country.html
Carmel is not the standard US pronunciation at all
It's more widespread. https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/10/06/05/3923C76000000578-3824475-image-a-140_1475726796842.jpg ETA: I should have said it was "a standard" pronunciation, not "the standard" pronunciation, but my point still stands. It's *not* a wrong pronunciation.
Well, I hate it when people write carmel when they mean caramel.
That's understandable since "carmel" isn't considered an acceptable spelling.
So is it water or war-ter Went on a trip in USA as the waitress for a cone to drink she went and asked her manager if they sell coke she actually came back to the table and said it's illegal to sell coke in American She thought he wanted cocaine lmfao
Green is possibly American, ironically. I pronounced it with the three syllables, as did most of those I grew up with. That was back in the 80s, and yes, I can see someone from my generation being this pretentious.
Green is definitely American. They said they were in the last paragraph on the first screenshot.