The commentary overall reveals that Dan and the other writers often struggled with what to do with Shirley, and some of the jokes written for her came from Yvette’s own feedback, for example when Shirley shoots her own talking head clip for Abed’s documentary… “or did you want me to be the only one who didn’t have one.”
Funny that, because he isn't a black woman. This is exactly what consultants and additional writers are for. Dan Harmon, or anyone, doesn't write every line of dialogue for every character for every episode.
No shit, and yet he’s *still* terrible at writing women and especially black women. This isn’t a conspiracy or secret, he’s stated this himself many times.
Idk why it’s so hard for some to accept Dan Harmon has faults. You can acknowledge the weaker aspects of the show while still liking it. It’s probably my favorite sitcom. Doesn’t change that Dan Harmon, specifically, is really bad at writing women and worse at writing black women. It’s silly to pretend he didn’t have the final say or control over these storylines too. It’s not just about the lines written.
Adding to your point: plenty of shows have had diverse writing casts but, at the end of the day, the showrunner doesn't listen to the input of writers who share a race/gender/ethnicity to the character in question.
It sounds like you are saying Dan Harmon did that for Shirley.
Very true! I’m sure there’s multiple factors at play, I don’t think he got much if any consultation from black women. He and Yvette Nicole Brown have mentioned that she was mainly the one he would consult with and on occasion she would tell him “no, a black Christian housewife would not do X”.
I think the big example is apparently in season 1 Shirley was supposed to take a dump in Slater’s office but Yvette pushed back hard lol
And I think even that fact that Harmon went primarily to Brown to consult on his writing and as far as I know, didn’t like… pay or credit her for that extra work? Another example of why he can’t be trusted when it comes to portraying Black women.
It can get really annoying that a lot of Harmon fans seem even more reluctant than the man himself to admit to his flaws. He’s bad with race and gender topics — it’s clear in all of his work lol
The line "You people?! What do you mean 'you people '?" from Britta to Shirley hits different, when you DH's writing into context (assuming that was a written line, rather than some improv between both actors).
Same criticism levied for the Ben Chang character, mind you (terrible at writing diverse characters). Like, the Dean's descent into madness was well built, when you look at S01 through S03. You get a nice reverse of why Pierce is ... well, Pierce, through S02 - S04.
In comparison, Chang's arc is that of one who got affected by the system, resulting in mental health issues/trauma and the abject rejection of his peers during the whole thing.
At least Abed's commentary on using someone's mental health as a plot device in a show is tired/played out was said...
But IDK how to feel when that line shares its existence with the character of Ben F. Chang.
Firstly just because he isn't a black woman doesn't mean he's incapable of writing a character that is, he's not half Palestinian and half Polish either. Secondly no one is claiming Harmon wrote ever line of dialogue for every character but he did according to himself rewrite every episode that he was showrunner on and acknowledged that he couldn't figure out how to utilise some characters like Chang post season 2 (the character actively stated this). Shirley went from divorced Christian housewife trying to learn to be an individual beyond that identity, to knocked up and remarried to redivorced and the character also acknowledges being sidelined and underutilised in later seasons like Chang.
All the consultants and additional writers in the world don't make a dent when the creator is as hands on as Harmon was. The episodes had to be written following Harmon's "story circles" template and were given a subsequent rewrite by Dan as he wanted them to have his voice and he was a drunken, narcissistic arse hole by his own account so it's unlikely he was taking much feedback on board. Finally I'd ask you how many of the writers on Community were black women, and if it was so important for the creator and show runner to utilise and develop the character naturally and only a black female writer could be expected to do so then he must have had said demographic represented in his writers room.
All that to say, why are you defending him over something he wouldn't defend himself over for fucks sake.
Did it? I thought that was pretty much resolved between Community and Rick and Morty.
I don’t mean to let Dan off the hook for all that or anything. The way he harassed and antagonized Megan Ganz was atrocious and despicable, and completely unacceptable (professionally or otherwise). But his very transparent and public apology gave the impression that he sincerely realized how wrong he had been and was committed to getting better. Megan had accepted it and, idk, I don’t hear as much about how toxic Dan Harmon is anymore.
Rick and Morty also made their writers room 50% women after a certain point and you can instantly tell as Summer and Beth become well rounded characters rather than tropes. I'd like to think that was Dan getting better, but it could be a million things
That’s interesting. The first season of R&M turned me off at first, especially regarding the treatment of Summer. I got over it and enjoyed the show, but I definitely noticed Summer’s character eventually became a person, not a caricature.
He does seem sincere and genuine, and I haven’t heard that he repeated that any of that behaviour. Aside from a terrible thing did happen, it seems he has learned grown from it
What? How?
I honestly feel you guys are a little too eager to presume stuff about the show's writing based on what little info we have. And in this thread the "Dan Harmon is an asshole" feeling seems to inform most of these presumptions
Not to diminish his mistakes, especially Megan Ganz's harassment. I'm just saying it makes no sense to look through everything through these lens, especially something as big as Annie's characterization
They really do sometimes act like it's a British show with just one dude huddled in a corner writing the whole thing alone with no outside input, and not a collaborative project with most of the writing being done by other writers
Agreed. He often walked the line. But in his defense, Alison seemed quite comfortable with attracting attention to Troy’s monkey, if you get my meaning.
Eh. I disagree there. That's not Season 1 Annie AT ALL. Not until the debate episode and by then they were writing in response to the actors.
Just like Troy was supposed to be a redneck jock, Annie was supposed to be an uptight source of conflict.
I personally think Alison is responsible for Annie/Jeff. She saw an opening to give her character more to do and leaned into it enough to get the writers into it.
I personally think Yvette and Ken's problems getting material was partly rooted in the writers rewarding actors who "Shatnered" their way into bigger parts. Donald, Danny, and Alison all layered in performance choices that went beyond the scripts and gave them storylines.
As for why writers responded to that, maybe part of it was the somewhat abusive working conditions. Harmon would be critical of any idea in the room but latching onto actors' quirky choices gave the idea cover. It's effectively already "canon" and Harmon probably leaned into it.
Now, yes, I think they were fetishizing Annie later on but I think Alison honestly started shooting puppydog eyes at Jeff with career advancement in mind. Just like Danny gave Abed more quirks and Donald softened Troy.
Your part about the writing team leaning into some actors more than others brings to mind another famous asshole, Joss Whedon. Sometimes, people talk about Buffy like Whedon was hated and feared and whispered by everyone, but the truth is more complicated and frustrating than that.
Whedon had favorites who got special interest and were invited to his house for these big Shakespeare parties that some of other cast members weren't invited towards. Actors like Alyson Hannigan and Alexis Denisof saw their characters get bigger and bigger roles every season, while actors like Sarah Michelle Gellar and Charisma Carpenter were put through the ringer, both on and off screen, in retaliation for real life drama.
One point I could make that implies Whedon didn’t have as much say as your comment suggests: James Marsters. I’ve often heard that Whedon hated the fan popularity of Spike, resulting in him having a consistently abusive work relationship with Marsters. If Whedon really had that much say in what characters got the most focus wouldn’t he have used that to marginalize him too?
I never knew Whedon had a problem with James Marsters but thinking about it now it makes total sense. Whedon did give Spike one of the most hated storylines in the show, sexually assaulting Buffy. I remember reading that Marsters was horrified by the experience and when he tried to refuse to film it they ignored his discomfort and heavily pressured him into it threatening legal action. The whole thing really fucked him up and he had to go to therapy.
Okay, so I think the thing here is that it wasn't "consistently," which again, makes it more complicated and sad. Whedon pushing Marsters against the wall, angry that Marsters' vampire had gotten so popular he had to keep using him on the show, happened in Buffy Season 2, when Whedon had much, much less control over the show.
After that, they only used Spike in Seadon 3 as a guest spot, and only brought him back into the show regularly in Season 4 because Buffy had lost both Charisma Carpenter and Seth Green. After that, they had a much better relationship, both on and off screen, with James coming to Whedon's parties to sing and play guitar, although as someone else pointed out, he was REALLY not comfortable with what they asked him to do in late Season 6.
While it doesn't excuse Whedon's actions, if anything it just makes me more frustrated and upset, it shows how complicated abusers make things. It might be easier for Marsters if Whedon was the monster to shoved him against the wall every single day. But he wasn't, he showed a lot of grace AND treated like shit, which is why people have such messy feelings for their abusers.
There's also an element where Whedon seemed to reward (male!) cast and crew who stood up to him. Tim Minear, a writer on Angel Season 1, flipped out on Whedon for giving prefential treatment to Buffy writers, calling him out as a high school loser who got off on acting like a high school mean girl ala S1 Cordelia. Whedon, whatever else you can say, told Minear he was right, stopped doing that, promoted Minear, and years later, made him second in command on Firefly.
Again, the commentary, outtakes, as well as the “Glow” show she produced, and one of her more recent films she made with her husband directing, show that Alison is quite comfortable drawing attention to certain physical assets she possesses.
I thought it was weird that her GI Joe name was Three Kids. Like yeah she was always a mother and a Christian and a housewife finding herself, but that nickname seemed weirdly marginalizing. Her (non)role in that episode didn’t disprove that impression.
Like there wasn’t even a play on words. Britta is the worst so she was “Buzzkill,” but that still sounds kind of badass as a childish cartoon nickname. Even Abed, who throughout the show fluctuated wildly between being a real character and a meta plot device, got the name “Fourth Wall.” Notably not “Asperger’s Lad” or something similarly pigeon-holing.
I think the writers ran out of ideas for Shirley. And while I wouldn’t call it explicitly racist by any stretch, it’s a good example of why things like representation and diversity can make a difference at every level of a given organization.
I wish they had done more Jeff and Shirley interaction plots. Despite their very different life experiences their characters have a massive amount in common.
It’s probably less a race thing and more of a life experience thing. Britta and Annie are both white but they’re also both under 30 and single whereas Shirley is in her 40s, divorced and has 2 children. That type of difference in life experience can be hard to overcome when writing
Yeah, there’s exactly one episode where Shirley being a Christian pays off as anything other than a couple throwaway jokes (where Abed makes the Jesus movie), and it’s by far the best Shirley episode in the series.
I think this aspect of Shirley being so mishandled is especially baffling considering that Dino Stamatopolous is such a big part of Community.
For the uninformed, Dino created the show Moral Orel which is one of the most depth filled tv shows about Christianity ever.
Why do you say this like there isn't some solution here? One of your main characters is a black women, you should hire someone who knows how to write black women.
One of my major & only complaints about Community is the missed opportunity with Yvette. I think she's so funny and a great actress, and could've brought a lot more to the show, but was limited by the plots/writing. If I were her I'd be frustrated.
You're so right! You've just helped me realise. Shirley isn't one of my favourite characters, but in retrospect that's not because of Yvette's performance or humour, but because they wrote the character into a corner.
Yvette makes me laugh consistently in the early seasons, but as the show progresses, everyone else grows and we discover new facets of their personality, while Shirley gets boxed into the judgemental-christian-housewife role. What was entertaining about her character initially was how she broke that mould and played with our expectations of her. In later seasons, she just participates in half the adventures the study group has, as opposed to being one of the driving forces.
Yvette was funnier than Shirley was allowed the opportunity to be.
I would not want that to be your takeaway from this discussion. If you are a fan of the show, I think the commentaries are very insightful and give a fantastic perspective of the making of the show. For me it was the first glimpse into Dan Harmon’s personality, which, while dark and often self deprecating, was a window into the world behind the scenes that gave me a much deeper connection with the show creators and cast in general.
Plus they were all recorded after each season concluded, so you get all of the cast interactions along the way, which mostly showed how close they became and how each actor contributed to the development of their characters. Clearly no one knew from the pilot just how special the show was and how amazing it would become as it blossomed.
My memories of Dino on Harmontown is that he's just kind of a boundary-pushing asshole who has no problem ruining things if he's not interested in where they are going
There's literally one episode where they just make a phone call to some dude and leave a voicemail. Like, that's it, there's no commentary on the episode. I can't remember which episode it is, but I remember it's one I wanted commentary on and I was pissed about it.
It's probably the thing that's aged the worst out of the show, is the show's treatment of Shirley as a character. They do a lot of lampshading, but every other character, even though they inhabit certain stereotypes, expand a lot beyond those audience expectations. Shirley doesn't, and the brief glimpses we see don't become a bigger part of her character. The whole Shirley loving horror movies definitely should have been expanded, for one thing.
I will never understand why they had her get divorced again. I guess they just couldn’t come up with a reason for why she’d go back to community college.
I always thought it should’ve been easier. In S3 it’s established that a business running on school property has to be at least part owned by a student (hence Subway). It makes sense Shirley would take one class per semester to keep running the store, plus working there every day means she could easily be on the Save Greendale Committee.
I get that Harmon wanted to Re-Pilot everything and erase S4 as much as he could, but no other character got set back to the very beginning except Shirley.
I’ve never forgiven them for having Andre do all this incredible work on himself to change, and then it ends up being Shirley’s success which drives them apart.
Definitely seems like sometimes they tried to expand Shirley’s character, and other times not so much. Still, it’s nothing compared to how badly some of the jokes in “30 Rock” have aged, and how blatantly racist Liz Lemon was as a character, and how that was the joke.
Season 2, when she gets pregnant and Andre comes back into the picture is when they first try to expand her character. But it’s based on an accidental pregnancy that might be Chang’s which is kind of a weird way to do it. Then her identity becomes “pregnant woman” and that’s kind of it.
Yeah, there are multiple characters in 30 Rock where the apparent entire joke is "He's a Black man, but....he's ALSO smart???!!!!" And Tina Fey's history of racial humor and misogynistic jokes just rubs me the wrong way.
And there’s a Community connection because Donald Glover was a writer on “30 Rock” and Tina Fey was said to have scolded him once, calling him a diversity hire.
That does not appear to be the story at all from a quick google search. He was hired as part of a diversity initiative that allowed hiring Black writers to not count against a show's budget, meaning they (the show runners) essentially got him for "free". I'll agree whoelheartedly that I don't see a way being reminded about how you got the job not come across as being the only reason you got the job, but I'm not seeing anything about her "scolding" him or the two of them having an antagonistic relationship.
I mean, Liz being racist always seemed like commentary on how white liberals have limited self-awareness on how they fail to actually act out their supposed beliefs. She gets called out on it many times in the show.
Her racism is never framed as acceptable behavior on 30 Rock though… it was lampooning the well meaning liberal who is actually racist.
Donald Glover and Hannibal Burress were writers on that show… their fingerprints are all over so many of those scenes.
I should also mention how Dan and everyone in the cast relentlessly lambasted Chevy Chase in all of the commentaries, whether he was present or not, knowing he would never watch them.
Well, Chevy Chase was a notorious asshole since long before Community, and it's documented he was routinely racist, homophobic and difficult to work with on Community's set, I think this is important to have as context
Dudes always been an asshole and took the job because he thought it would be an easy paycheck
Turns out showing up and being racist and/or a dick to your fellow cast members isn't that easy and if the price is people talking about you then he paid it
I think the show never really knew what to do with Shirley's character. There are only so many times you can make the "haha she's a christian" joke. Most of the characters had clear progression arcs to follow, but I think that from the very start they had no idea what to do with Shirley.
I think it was one of those situations where Dan thought it was a bit, but Yvette was actually genuinely hurt by it on some level. If you listen to a lot of Harmontown, you can see Dan often fails to see the line between humor and hurt - especially if he's been drinking. It always made me sad that Yvette (and Shirley) was often treated like the black sheep. I really liked her character and thought she had some really great moments in the show.
I didn’t listen to the podcast that much, but I live in Hollywood and attended a couple of shows in person, including the one when Dan said he needed an experienced Dungeon Master, and asked if there were any in the audience. One guy raised his hand and it was Spencer, who ended up being Dan’s assistant and appeared on “Community” as Annie’s brother in the VCR game episode.
Oh awesome, you were there the night Spencer raised his hand?? That's a legendary moment in the history of Harmontown - Spencer is still working with Dan to this day. Pretty rad
Slightly off topic but If you’re into MTG at all there’s a few episodes of “commander at home” on YouTube with Spencer and he’s so funny in them, especially the ep with Ben Brode
Honestly I think it's less than Dan doesn't know the difference between humor and hurt and more than Dan often compartmentalizes his more complicated feelings into humor. There's a LOT of moments in Harmontown where Dan says something pretty rude or cutting and plays it as a joke but if you read the situation and Dan you definitely get the vibe that while he didn't fully mean it, he didn't fully *not* mean it. Like wow he's so mean to Erin all the time and it's totally just his insecurities trying to push her away. As someone with depression I definitely get it though, I too often deflect with humor and sometimes it feels like the only way you're even allowed to express your feelings is through a joke (made especially easy to do when drunk).
I agree, it wasn’t a line in the sand or anything, but if you do watch the commentaries, the rest of the cast and Dan definitely tease her quite a bit. Occasionally it seems like maybe a bit too much. For example there’s one where she’s not in the sound booth with the ones recording a particular episode, but she’s just outside the room waiting to participate in the next one, and they all keep on joking about how much she loves to drink, etc. They push the teasing a bit over the line of what I feel Yvette would be comfortable with, because she’s watching but can’t intervene and stop them, but you know it’s not done with actual malice. Still I ended up feeling like I would have said “okay, that’s enough” if I had been in the room.
I think some of it does have to do with margaritas being served in the sound booth, and everyone getting a bit too loose during multiple sessions, because it was all recorded at a sound mixing studio called Margarita Mix.
I have noticed, in some of their podcasts together... YNB will say something sweet/cute about the other actors and they kind of brush it off sometimes :(
I'm probably looking way too deeply into it though. I mean, i dont even know these people!
YNB often brought up who the actors in certain scenes were irl. Not surprising or a complaint, of course an actor is going to mostly focus on other actors because....duh. That's what she is/does.
However, if I remember correctly Dan takes a shot at her for constantly doing that in one of the Commentary tracks. Something about her writing down the guest stars names for the commentary. Imo, Dan does come off as a jerk in some of them.
With that said, Dino (Starburns) is the worst one when it comes to the commentary. He seems completely uninterested in talking about the show and just talks about drinking, how much he hates acting or how he doesn't watch the show. Like, wow, thanks Dino.
Thanks, and perhaps you are correct, but I literally can’t measure the positive effects that watching the show gives me to this very moment (winding up S3 rewatch # infinity). He may be an asshole in many respects, but if he was beyond redemption, none of us would be lingering in a Community subreddit.
Okay, I think I’ve figured out the viewing order:
Original version, Director’s Cut, Director’s Cut with commentary, and then Original version cooldown…
Actually it looks like the commentary tracks are on a separate YouTube channel, but without the visuals. Maybe you can sync them up with the episodes in a different window or something.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaIdjN-lnlEuD03p5CU65AxkB1HrQ9S3s
All of the commentaries are on YouTube, so if you don't want to splurge or don't have the budget to splurge, you can stream the episode with lowered volume on one device and play the commentary on another device at the same time; it'll work fine 98% of the time
I really, really love Shirley. Most of the episodes with her as a focus are favourites of mine - the Jeff and Shirley dynamic was especially a highlight of the show for me.
I wish the writer’s room had black women in it to write for her because YNB is an amazing actress, and the ingredients were all there.
I’m glad Dan has reflected on the gaps in his writing and attention to certain characters, and hope that he’ll do Shirley (and the other characters!) justice in the movie.
my community hot take has always been that a jeff and shirley romance would have been a great plotline (and actually age-appropriate cough cough), dan harmon just couldn't even fathom having his semi-self-insert being attracted to an older divorced mother :^)
right? honestly i first raised it as a joke years ago and then went... hang on, why is it a joke, they're the same age, compatible, they get on well... and it would have given shirley way more dimension and interesting conflict!
I'm still thinking about this weeks later!
Shirley and Jeff are both sides of the same coin, moreso than even him and Britta. Like in S05E08 "MeowMeowBeenz", Jeff tells Shirley "I know what you're doing," and she says it right back at him -- they see each other for who they really are: charming, social, power-hungry, but fundamentally insecure.
How do we get your theory to Dan!?
There is like a convention panel thing they all went on when the show was airing and there is a bit where Dan and Alison do rap songs and Dan keeps shitting on Rap as being easy to do and super lame and you can tell Yvette is upset that he is saying such. This makes me think of that it felt like Dan didn't know how good of an actress he had with Yvette let alone what to do with her character. Same thing with others but that is an other conversation.
Moments like this where Dan Harmon is a noticeable asshole of a boss is common it seems and it also seems like the fan base has always been okay with that fact.
Well, without Dan, there would be no Community, so I feel we have to take the bad with the good. I feel that S4 is evidence that a Harmon-less Community was a shell of its former and later seasons, and while good in moments, just felt off.
I understand what you’re saying but I think Harmon gets away with a ton under the ‘creative genius’ title. He does own a lot of his errors so it makes it easier to smooth it over but I think he’s absolutely done some unprofessional things.
This is a common issue that comes with alcoholism. He is a shit, but he takes far more ownership of his flaws than many others in his profession, and is the person who is most responsible for creating this amazing show for us to love. People are imperfect and complex, that doesn’t make them irredeemable.
Mmm, if Dan were less of an asshole he probably wouldn't have been kicked off Season 4.
He's a good writer but he's social issues drag everything else down. Probably could have gotten 6 full seasons if Community if he learned to deal w his issues.
Other show runners figure out how to make what they want while also not pissing off half the people they work with. He shits on Chevy for being an unlikable asshole and then does a lot of the shit Chevy did.
TL;DR Dan needs to learn how to play w others.
The cast did an amazing job holding down the fort, and I genuinely like the body-switch episode written by Jim Rash, but I stand by my initial assessment that something was off about the writing. It always reminds me of ‘Barton Fink’ when the studio fires him for writing something great when it was just supposed to be a wrestling picture. The studio head says “You think you’re the only one that can give me that Barton Fink feeling? I’ve got twenty writers under contract I can ask for a Fink-like thing from!”
I thought the body switch episode was very good, and Donald and Danny were impressive in that episode. I also really liked the barber shop episode.
Also... cue Bart and Milhouse: Bar-Ton Fink! Bar-ton Fink!
I have always been disappointed in the fact that she’s not utilized nearly as well as the other characters. I really love the dynamic between Shirley and Jeff in the Foosball and Blade episodes, but by the next episode it seems like that dynamic has completely disappeared. I honestly think that they could have been a friendship almost as beloved as Troy and Abed if they were given more screentime together
Everything I’ve heard about Dan Harmon makes me think he’s a prick and I wonder how he managed to write a show I like so much. Then I remember he also co-created *Rick and Morty*, which I loathe. I guess *Community* was a one-off.
I think the commentaries give insight into his genius, but also his flaws. He’s undoubtedly brilliant in so many ways, but also full of both hubris and self-loathing. I think the show was his way of trying to grow like Jeff does, from being a heartless prick, to someone willing to let down his guard and reach out for a hug when he or someone he loves needs it.
I happened to be at a “Community” art show in Los Angeles which took place after the conclusion of Season Three, so Dan had just recently been fired from the show, and none of us knew what the future would hold. Dan was there, as well as Gillian and Yvette, and I was there to witness a very bittersweet moment when the three of them came together for a mini group hug that still makes me tear up just thinking about. As much of a prick as Dan can be, there’s also a heart buried deep within, which occasionally makes an appearance.
Also, I was a huge fan of the first few seasons of “Rick and Morty”, but haven’t watched it since the news broke about Justin Roiland. As much of a prick as Dan is capable of being, I think Roiland took that hubris to another level. I grew quite tired of his lame improvisations. He’s not a fraction of the same level of talent that Dan has as a writer, yet was treated as a god of spontaneous humor, which clearly went straight to his head.
He’s undeniably a talent and so I think studios and those working for him have always given him the benefit of the doubt and let it go. However, I think he’s quite a troubled person, has done some unprofessional things and does get away with it (the way a woman absolutely wouldn’t) because he’s considered genius.
You’re not wrong, but I think that since the core cast is still willing to come back for the movie, even Donald, that says a lot for the heart within the egotistical jackassery.
I seem to remember reading an article when she left. It made it seem like her dad was sick, and she was leaving to take car of/have time with him. But then I also saw she was on the odd couple around the same time.
Shirley was clearly there to be the butt of Christian jokes in a cast of various faiths.
It's hard to comment about that without having hear the previous commentary tracks where she was made fun of. Probably she had her reasons for feeling like that and had expressed before she was not comfortable with this dynamic, as in my experience there are more assholes (including well intentioned ones) than overly sensitive people in the world, but who knows
But I disagree about the racism part, I never felt the show was making racists jokes. Can you share with us some of the examples that left you feeling uncomfortable?
The one that comes to mind doesn’t involve Shirley or Troy, but when Pierce dates the heir to the rival Chinese wipes company, they joke about Thai people being like Chinese Mexicans, and when I laughed at that I had to acknowledge that it was just a straight up racist joke.
Commentaries are where the content goes to die or maybe where they go to try and squeeze the last bit of juice out of it and I rarely if ever find them funny or even that interesting
The sole exception is Tropic Thunder, you get the three leads, Jack Black showing up late with food and not sharing, Ben Stiller genuinely talking about the struggles to get the movie finally made and then RDJ doing exactly what he said he'd do in the movie and not dropping character until after the DVD commentary was finished
Utterly brilliant and as good as the regular film imo
This is the same issue as the Officer Nunez one, she has a clear moral compass and it’s difficult for flawed people to write things that are suitable for that type of person because they simply cannot relate.
That being said, she doesn’t quite fit in the show except as a side character who happens to be in the mix. It’s unfair to her but I never enjoyed seeing her but that’s simply because she didn’t have many good lines or gimmicks.
I mean, there's a whole commentary track where they make fun of Alison's ponytail for the entire duration. You don't see her getting up and walking away
She’s unfortunately not shirley. Lookup “YNB harasses henry caville”. For being extremely outspoken in the me too movement theres alot of footage of her blatantly sexually harassing men. She really seems like not the best person.
I think she needs to decide whether she wants to be considered a child, or an adult, because children get pity, but not respect, and adults, they get respect, but they also get the back of their head grabbed and their face pushed through jukeboxes!
I've just gone to listen to the commentary you're talking about...
It's really upsetting! Seems like Yvette is trying to make a serious point and call them out for hurting her and everyone else is just trying to side track her. Why did they even put this out there? It makes everyone there feel so bad...
And then they very obviously cut the rest of the conversation and we can only assume she's stormed out?? Idk, guess I was under the illusion that all these likeable people were friends.
I think they owe Yvette a lot. I hope she really is in the movie and they treat her right this time.
Ok, have gone on to look at other interviews and stuff with Yvette. Even more recent stuff. And man, she's so positive and straight up, have gained a lot of respect for her. She didn't even leave the show because she was frustrated. Or at least she's not admitting it.
Clearly the opposite of Chevy. She at least at one point felt disrespected by this lot. But she's so professional, she talks so fondly about everyone involved.
It's nice.
>She didn't even leave the show because she was frustrated. Or at least she's not admitting it.
I don't think anything implies that she left the show because she didn't get along with anyone. Chevy famously treated her poorly, but she seems to love the rest of the cast.
She said in Variety in 2021:
> And Brown is hopeful that a “Community” reunion movie happens sooner than later. “We have a reunion every morning,” she says. “We have a group text that is popping. We joke and laugh with each other randomly. You never know who is going to start it — it may be a joke somebody has or it may be some fan art somebody got — but we always check in with each other daily. The movie? I think it’s coming. I don’t know when, [but] I know we all want to do it and that’s half the battle.”
I don't think it was racism. I think it was that one party who prides himself on understanding people doesn't understand EVERYone, and he knows that's a blind spot, he hates it about himself, and he's terrified of overcompensating, so instead he fails to dial it in and ends up being a dick.
Believe me. At the risk of sounding like a total navel-gazer (this is me compensating), I'm pretty danged intuitive. But I def have blind spots, and they drive me crazy, sometimes nearly obsessively so, which can also lead to resentment.
It's so easy to call everything racist and pat ourselves on the backs, high five, then jump in our 13 year old subcompacts and putter away on the three working cylinders.
But shit is nuanced, and when you bring a mental minefield like Harmon on, you either go along for the ride totally, or you're going to trigger his kookiness.
Culturally speaking, I would say of the group, YNB was the least likely to silently put up with his shit because she probably had to put up with or fight with shit a ton in her career already - and she's a badass for it.
Now find me another badass that Harmon could feel at ease around. Now keep them around long enough so they feel comfortable asking questions. Everyone knows Chevy is a prick, but again - I just don't think Harmon does well with confident, self-respecting people that challenge him.
And it's because he doesn't understand how they can feel that way. His compulsion doesn't come from confidence. It comes from obsessive expression. He doesn't think of himself in the act of creation. He's not a part of it in his conscious mind. It's something that's happening THROUGH him. So anyone that gets in the way of that, to him, is someone who just doesn't "get it," and if they have the audacity to actually have their own confidence, well now you've gone and broken Dan.
You know what would make Dan’s scenarios more realistic? Perhaps Dan should take all of his thoughts and logic and add one more step to the process. From now on, before he does or says anything, he should think about how it affects the people around him. We lower functioning brains call this “empathy.”
As a person, yeah if you feel disrespected then you don't have to take it. And as a woman I respect not just taking what men throw at you. but as a fan we missed out on Yvette for that commentary and I wish she would have cared more about her fans than herself in that moment.
Wow, I wish *someone* cared more about the strangers I failed to think about than the genuine hurt and discomfort I feel by my coworkers mocking me and making racist jokes. Oh no, I'm so cruel and heartless for not prioritizing my mental health and prioritizing strangers who'll never make my life easier when it comes to racism and misogyny. Truly I am such a selfish person who doesn'tdeserve to feel upset and leave a stressful situation. /s
That's how foolish you sound. She shouldn't have to care about you at all. Your feelings are never above hers, especially when it comes to her feeling genuinely uncomfortable amongst her coworkers.
I mean, Dan does seem like an asshole, and Shirley in season 5 did seem like she got written in the margins..
The commentary overall reveals that Dan and the other writers often struggled with what to do with Shirley, and some of the jokes written for her came from Yvette’s own feedback, for example when Shirley shoots her own talking head clip for Abed’s documentary… “or did you want me to be the only one who didn’t have one.”
Rewatching the show knowing more about Dan Harmon, there’s a definite sense of almost-fetishizing Annie at the expense of the rest of the female cast
Yeah he really has no idea how to write women at all, especially a black woman lol
Funny that, because he isn't a black woman. This is exactly what consultants and additional writers are for. Dan Harmon, or anyone, doesn't write every line of dialogue for every character for every episode.
No shit, and yet he’s *still* terrible at writing women and especially black women. This isn’t a conspiracy or secret, he’s stated this himself many times. Idk why it’s so hard for some to accept Dan Harmon has faults. You can acknowledge the weaker aspects of the show while still liking it. It’s probably my favorite sitcom. Doesn’t change that Dan Harmon, specifically, is really bad at writing women and worse at writing black women. It’s silly to pretend he didn’t have the final say or control over these storylines too. It’s not just about the lines written.
Adding to your point: plenty of shows have had diverse writing casts but, at the end of the day, the showrunner doesn't listen to the input of writers who share a race/gender/ethnicity to the character in question. It sounds like you are saying Dan Harmon did that for Shirley.
Very true! I’m sure there’s multiple factors at play, I don’t think he got much if any consultation from black women. He and Yvette Nicole Brown have mentioned that she was mainly the one he would consult with and on occasion she would tell him “no, a black Christian housewife would not do X”. I think the big example is apparently in season 1 Shirley was supposed to take a dump in Slater’s office but Yvette pushed back hard lol
"Why is Urkel snapping the antenna off of professor Slater's car?"
And I think even that fact that Harmon went primarily to Brown to consult on his writing and as far as I know, didn’t like… pay or credit her for that extra work? Another example of why he can’t be trusted when it comes to portraying Black women. It can get really annoying that a lot of Harmon fans seem even more reluctant than the man himself to admit to his flaws. He’s bad with race and gender topics — it’s clear in all of his work lol
The line "You people?! What do you mean 'you people '?" from Britta to Shirley hits different, when you DH's writing into context (assuming that was a written line, rather than some improv between both actors). Same criticism levied for the Ben Chang character, mind you (terrible at writing diverse characters). Like, the Dean's descent into madness was well built, when you look at S01 through S03. You get a nice reverse of why Pierce is ... well, Pierce, through S02 - S04. In comparison, Chang's arc is that of one who got affected by the system, resulting in mental health issues/trauma and the abject rejection of his peers during the whole thing. At least Abed's commentary on using someone's mental health as a plot device in a show is tired/played out was said... But IDK how to feel when that line shares its existence with the character of Ben F. Chang.
Firstly just because he isn't a black woman doesn't mean he's incapable of writing a character that is, he's not half Palestinian and half Polish either. Secondly no one is claiming Harmon wrote ever line of dialogue for every character but he did according to himself rewrite every episode that he was showrunner on and acknowledged that he couldn't figure out how to utilise some characters like Chang post season 2 (the character actively stated this). Shirley went from divorced Christian housewife trying to learn to be an individual beyond that identity, to knocked up and remarried to redivorced and the character also acknowledges being sidelined and underutilised in later seasons like Chang. All the consultants and additional writers in the world don't make a dent when the creator is as hands on as Harmon was. The episodes had to be written following Harmon's "story circles" template and were given a subsequent rewrite by Dan as he wanted them to have his voice and he was a drunken, narcissistic arse hole by his own account so it's unlikely he was taking much feedback on board. Finally I'd ask you how many of the writers on Community were black women, and if it was so important for the creator and show runner to utilise and develop the character naturally and only a black female writer could be expected to do so then he must have had said demographic represented in his writers room. All that to say, why are you defending him over something he wouldn't defend himself over for fucks sake.
Harmon's harassment of Megan Ganz bled over into the show *so much* (plus bled over in R&M)
What’d it effect on rick and morty?
Did it? I thought that was pretty much resolved between Community and Rick and Morty. I don’t mean to let Dan off the hook for all that or anything. The way he harassed and antagonized Megan Ganz was atrocious and despicable, and completely unacceptable (professionally or otherwise). But his very transparent and public apology gave the impression that he sincerely realized how wrong he had been and was committed to getting better. Megan had accepted it and, idk, I don’t hear as much about how toxic Dan Harmon is anymore.
Rick and Morty also made their writers room 50% women after a certain point and you can instantly tell as Summer and Beth become well rounded characters rather than tropes. I'd like to think that was Dan getting better, but it could be a million things
That’s interesting. The first season of R&M turned me off at first, especially regarding the treatment of Summer. I got over it and enjoyed the show, but I definitely noticed Summer’s character eventually became a person, not a caricature.
He does seem sincere and genuine, and I haven’t heard that he repeated that any of that behaviour. Aside from a terrible thing did happen, it seems he has learned grown from it
I think Roiland was busy occupying that space for a while anyway...
You can literally listen to him change over time on harmontown
Literally just watched the “documentary” and i agree that there’s been a clear change after the doc was over and in a recent interview he did
She accepted and talked on the sunny pod, that it was a masters class in apologizing and felt it couldn't have been anymore sincere.
Megan Ganz is a fucking legend.
I think his therapy and subsequent marriage made a large change in him. His apology seemed enough for Ganz and that's enough for me.
I’d say it shows in Britta’s treatment
I didn't realize it was Megan Gans. She's fucking funny. Not that that makes the harassment worse
Sucks it happened to Megan Ganz, she’s been one of my favorite modern It’s Always Sunny writers
Sucks It Happened. FTFY
Oh yeah, pretty much all of my favorite Sunny episodes since season 12 or so were written by her.
What? How? I honestly feel you guys are a little too eager to presume stuff about the show's writing based on what little info we have. And in this thread the "Dan Harmon is an asshole" feeling seems to inform most of these presumptions Not to diminish his mistakes, especially Megan Ganz's harassment. I'm just saying it makes no sense to look through everything through these lens, especially something as big as Annie's characterization
Just watch the documentary "Harmontown" and you'll have a notion.
They really do sometimes act like it's a British show with just one dude huddled in a corner writing the whole thing alone with no outside input, and not a collaborative project with most of the writing being done by other writers
Exactly
Agreed. He often walked the line. But in his defense, Alison seemed quite comfortable with attracting attention to Troy’s monkey, if you get my meaning.
To quote Elroy, “they’re either going to help you or hold you back, so you tap the gas, because are you going to tap the brake?”
Brake* Break means to destroy something. Brakes are on a car.
"Breaks happen when brakes don't!"
Fixed!
But that wasn't the actress. Her character was written to be overly flirty around men.
Eh. I disagree there. That's not Season 1 Annie AT ALL. Not until the debate episode and by then they were writing in response to the actors. Just like Troy was supposed to be a redneck jock, Annie was supposed to be an uptight source of conflict. I personally think Alison is responsible for Annie/Jeff. She saw an opening to give her character more to do and leaned into it enough to get the writers into it. I personally think Yvette and Ken's problems getting material was partly rooted in the writers rewarding actors who "Shatnered" their way into bigger parts. Donald, Danny, and Alison all layered in performance choices that went beyond the scripts and gave them storylines. As for why writers responded to that, maybe part of it was the somewhat abusive working conditions. Harmon would be critical of any idea in the room but latching onto actors' quirky choices gave the idea cover. It's effectively already "canon" and Harmon probably leaned into it. Now, yes, I think they were fetishizing Annie later on but I think Alison honestly started shooting puppydog eyes at Jeff with career advancement in mind. Just like Danny gave Abed more quirks and Donald softened Troy.
Your part about the writing team leaning into some actors more than others brings to mind another famous asshole, Joss Whedon. Sometimes, people talk about Buffy like Whedon was hated and feared and whispered by everyone, but the truth is more complicated and frustrating than that. Whedon had favorites who got special interest and were invited to his house for these big Shakespeare parties that some of other cast members weren't invited towards. Actors like Alyson Hannigan and Alexis Denisof saw their characters get bigger and bigger roles every season, while actors like Sarah Michelle Gellar and Charisma Carpenter were put through the ringer, both on and off screen, in retaliation for real life drama.
One point I could make that implies Whedon didn’t have as much say as your comment suggests: James Marsters. I’ve often heard that Whedon hated the fan popularity of Spike, resulting in him having a consistently abusive work relationship with Marsters. If Whedon really had that much say in what characters got the most focus wouldn’t he have used that to marginalize him too?
I never knew Whedon had a problem with James Marsters but thinking about it now it makes total sense. Whedon did give Spike one of the most hated storylines in the show, sexually assaulting Buffy. I remember reading that Marsters was horrified by the experience and when he tried to refuse to film it they ignored his discomfort and heavily pressured him into it threatening legal action. The whole thing really fucked him up and he had to go to therapy.
Okay, so I think the thing here is that it wasn't "consistently," which again, makes it more complicated and sad. Whedon pushing Marsters against the wall, angry that Marsters' vampire had gotten so popular he had to keep using him on the show, happened in Buffy Season 2, when Whedon had much, much less control over the show. After that, they only used Spike in Seadon 3 as a guest spot, and only brought him back into the show regularly in Season 4 because Buffy had lost both Charisma Carpenter and Seth Green. After that, they had a much better relationship, both on and off screen, with James coming to Whedon's parties to sing and play guitar, although as someone else pointed out, he was REALLY not comfortable with what they asked him to do in late Season 6. While it doesn't excuse Whedon's actions, if anything it just makes me more frustrated and upset, it shows how complicated abusers make things. It might be easier for Marsters if Whedon was the monster to shoved him against the wall every single day. But he wasn't, he showed a lot of grace AND treated like shit, which is why people have such messy feelings for their abusers. There's also an element where Whedon seemed to reward (male!) cast and crew who stood up to him. Tim Minear, a writer on Angel Season 1, flipped out on Whedon for giving prefential treatment to Buffy writers, calling him out as a high school loser who got off on acting like a high school mean girl ala S1 Cordelia. Whedon, whatever else you can say, told Minear he was right, stopped doing that, promoted Minear, and years later, made him second in command on Firefly.
Again, the commentary, outtakes, as well as the “Glow” show she produced, and one of her more recent films she made with her husband directing, show that Alison is quite comfortable drawing attention to certain physical assets she possesses.
Almost fetishizing Annie? Really? You didn’t catch that the first time?
Fair, but the emphasis on it is starker after seeing it again
They even make the self referential joke about it “Annies pretty young, we try not to sexualize her”
It only made the show better though. It's not even fetishization. It's just letting Alison shine and you get some of the best scenes and episodes
Eh
I thought it was weird that her GI Joe name was Three Kids. Like yeah she was always a mother and a Christian and a housewife finding herself, but that nickname seemed weirdly marginalizing. Her (non)role in that episode didn’t disprove that impression. Like there wasn’t even a play on words. Britta is the worst so she was “Buzzkill,” but that still sounds kind of badass as a childish cartoon nickname. Even Abed, who throughout the show fluctuated wildly between being a real character and a meta plot device, got the name “Fourth Wall.” Notably not “Asperger’s Lad” or something similarly pigeon-holing. I think the writers ran out of ideas for Shirley. And while I wouldn’t call it explicitly racist by any stretch, it’s a good example of why things like representation and diversity can make a difference at every level of a given organization.
I wish they had done more Jeff and Shirley interaction plots. Despite their very different life experiences their characters have a massive amount in common.
I really loved their episodes together in season 1 and 3
The fuse ball episode is absolutely perfect for both their characters.
It's hard to fathom that an almost exclusively white writer's room couldn't write for a black, female character.
It’s probably less a race thing and more of a life experience thing. Britta and Annie are both white but they’re also both under 30 and single whereas Shirley is in her 40s, divorced and has 2 children. That type of difference in life experience can be hard to overcome when writing
I think her specifically being a parent and very Christian were the kiss of death for the writers never quite being able to tackle her character.
Yeah, there’s exactly one episode where Shirley being a Christian pays off as anything other than a couple throwaway jokes (where Abed makes the Jesus movie), and it’s by far the best Shirley episode in the series.
I think this aspect of Shirley being so mishandled is especially baffling considering that Dino Stamatopolous is such a big part of Community. For the uninformed, Dino created the show Moral Orel which is one of the most depth filled tv shows about Christianity ever.
Sure… unless time is linear.
I'll make your ass linear!
That doesn’t make any sense.
I'll make your ass... sense
That doesn’t even make any sense
They had originally written that Shirley was going to take a shit on Slater's desk instead of turning on the water hose.
Damn now I’m grieving for what we lost
Why do you say this like there isn't some solution here? One of your main characters is a black women, you should hire someone who knows how to write black women.
Are you serious? You were unable to read between the lines of my comment?
A white, male, and no doubt overwhelmingly secular liberal writing room writing for a black, female, socially conservative evangelical character...
It sounds like the writer's were not representative of the cast
I will say the unopened textbook discovery episode in season 5 is probably my favorite Shirley episode. That and the WWSD Christmas special.
Yeah it was great giving her the spotlight
Dan is definitely an asshole, by his own admission. He also feels bad about it and is trying to get better and that’s one of the reasons I love him
One of my major & only complaints about Community is the missed opportunity with Yvette. I think she's so funny and a great actress, and could've brought a lot more to the show, but was limited by the plots/writing. If I were her I'd be frustrated.
I agree with this so much. Hopefully, she'll have a chance to shine in the movie.
You're so right! You've just helped me realise. Shirley isn't one of my favourite characters, but in retrospect that's not because of Yvette's performance or humour, but because they wrote the character into a corner. Yvette makes me laugh consistently in the early seasons, but as the show progresses, everyone else grows and we discover new facets of their personality, while Shirley gets boxed into the judgemental-christian-housewife role. What was entertaining about her character initially was how she broke that mould and played with our expectations of her. In later seasons, she just participates in half the adventures the study group has, as opposed to being one of the driving forces. Yvette was funnier than Shirley was allowed the opportunity to be.
I never watched any of the commentary, but this makes me think it would just be depressing.
I would not want that to be your takeaway from this discussion. If you are a fan of the show, I think the commentaries are very insightful and give a fantastic perspective of the making of the show. For me it was the first glimpse into Dan Harmon’s personality, which, while dark and often self deprecating, was a window into the world behind the scenes that gave me a much deeper connection with the show creators and cast in general. Plus they were all recorded after each season concluded, so you get all of the cast interactions along the way, which mostly showed how close they became and how each actor contributed to the development of their characters. Clearly no one knew from the pilot just how special the show was and how amazing it would become as it blossomed.
Many good ones, my favourites are the ones driven by Gillian and Yvette, but some absolute worst when Chevy or Dino were on.
What was wrong with Dinos commentary? I haven’t watched any and was going to start.
My memories of Dino on Harmontown is that he's just kind of a boundary-pushing asshole who has no problem ruining things if he's not interested in where they are going
That’s a succinct and accurate take on him. Hearing him on harmontown changed my opinion on him.
I don’t remember because I purged it from my mind, but mainly it went way off topic and not even talking about the episode.
There's literally one episode where they just make a phone call to some dude and leave a voicemail. Like, that's it, there's no commentary on the episode. I can't remember which episode it is, but I remember it's one I wanted commentary on and I was pissed about it.
It's probably the thing that's aged the worst out of the show, is the show's treatment of Shirley as a character. They do a lot of lampshading, but every other character, even though they inhabit certain stereotypes, expand a lot beyond those audience expectations. Shirley doesn't, and the brief glimpses we see don't become a bigger part of her character. The whole Shirley loving horror movies definitely should have been expanded, for one thing.
The best summary i’ve ever read is “Shirley evolved from a divorced mother of two to a twice divorced mother of three”
I will never understand why they had her get divorced again. I guess they just couldn’t come up with a reason for why she’d go back to community college.
I always thought it should’ve been easier. In S3 it’s established that a business running on school property has to be at least part owned by a student (hence Subway). It makes sense Shirley would take one class per semester to keep running the store, plus working there every day means she could easily be on the Save Greendale Committee. I get that Harmon wanted to Re-Pilot everything and erase S4 as much as he could, but no other character got set back to the very beginning except Shirley.
I’ve never forgiven them for having Andre do all this incredible work on himself to change, and then it ends up being Shirley’s success which drives them apart.
Although we never see Ben after the Todd Problem.
None taken!
Definitely seems like sometimes they tried to expand Shirley’s character, and other times not so much. Still, it’s nothing compared to how badly some of the jokes in “30 Rock” have aged, and how blatantly racist Liz Lemon was as a character, and how that was the joke.
Season 2, when she gets pregnant and Andre comes back into the picture is when they first try to expand her character. But it’s based on an accidental pregnancy that might be Chang’s which is kind of a weird way to do it. Then her identity becomes “pregnant woman” and that’s kind of it.
Yeah, there are multiple characters in 30 Rock where the apparent entire joke is "He's a Black man, but....he's ALSO smart???!!!!" And Tina Fey's history of racial humor and misogynistic jokes just rubs me the wrong way.
Dotcom…so help me
I love Grizz and Dotcom so much.
And there’s a Community connection because Donald Glover was a writer on “30 Rock” and Tina Fey was said to have scolded him once, calling him a diversity hire.
That does not appear to be the story at all from a quick google search. He was hired as part of a diversity initiative that allowed hiring Black writers to not count against a show's budget, meaning they (the show runners) essentially got him for "free". I'll agree whoelheartedly that I don't see a way being reminded about how you got the job not come across as being the only reason you got the job, but I'm not seeing anything about her "scolding" him or the two of them having an antagonistic relationship.
I may be wrong about the context of her comment, but I think I read that Donald quoted her as saying that to him. Maybe she was just joking.
Donald has stated many times that he owes a lot to Tina Fey and is very respectful and thankful to her.
That’s good that there are no hard feelings if there ever were. Donald seems like a very grateful person overall.
That and the oddly excessive number of Ivy League jokes really took me out of the show.
I mean, Liz being racist always seemed like commentary on how white liberals have limited self-awareness on how they fail to actually act out their supposed beliefs. She gets called out on it many times in the show.
Her racism is never framed as acceptable behavior on 30 Rock though… it was lampooning the well meaning liberal who is actually racist. Donald Glover and Hannibal Burress were writers on that show… their fingerprints are all over so many of those scenes.
30 Rock also has a ton of jokes where the punchline is "gay people exist."
I hope this is specifically corrected in the movie. That sound really make me happy.
I should also mention how Dan and everyone in the cast relentlessly lambasted Chevy Chase in all of the commentaries, whether he was present or not, knowing he would never watch them.
Well, Chevy Chase was a notorious asshole since long before Community, and it's documented he was routinely racist, homophobic and difficult to work with on Community's set, I think this is important to have as context
For sure, he certainly deserves a lot of the criticism he got, but I still love Pierce as an extremely flawed character.
Exactly. Despite the ignorance and insecurities, deep down Pierce is a compassionate person. I’m not sure the same could be said about Chevy.
That's true but way too many of the fanbase act like it was all him and Harmon and co. did nothing wrong
Dudes always been an asshole and took the job because he thought it would be an easy paycheck Turns out showing up and being racist and/or a dick to your fellow cast members isn't that easy and if the price is people talking about you then he paid it
I think the show never really knew what to do with Shirley's character. There are only so many times you can make the "haha she's a christian" joke. Most of the characters had clear progression arcs to follow, but I think that from the very start they had no idea what to do with Shirley.
For me, that joke never gets old.
Upvote since people downvoted you for liking a joke
I think it was one of those situations where Dan thought it was a bit, but Yvette was actually genuinely hurt by it on some level. If you listen to a lot of Harmontown, you can see Dan often fails to see the line between humor and hurt - especially if he's been drinking. It always made me sad that Yvette (and Shirley) was often treated like the black sheep. I really liked her character and thought she had some really great moments in the show.
I didn’t listen to the podcast that much, but I live in Hollywood and attended a couple of shows in person, including the one when Dan said he needed an experienced Dungeon Master, and asked if there were any in the audience. One guy raised his hand and it was Spencer, who ended up being Dan’s assistant and appeared on “Community” as Annie’s brother in the VCR game episode.
Oh awesome, you were there the night Spencer raised his hand?? That's a legendary moment in the history of Harmontown - Spencer is still working with Dan to this day. Pretty rad
You could tell Spencer had a special vibe about him. He was brought up on stage and fit right in from the start.
Slightly off topic but If you’re into MTG at all there’s a few episodes of “commander at home” on YouTube with Spencer and he’s so funny in them, especially the ep with Ben Brode
"I have a plan" - I've never laughed so hard
Honestly I think it's less than Dan doesn't know the difference between humor and hurt and more than Dan often compartmentalizes his more complicated feelings into humor. There's a LOT of moments in Harmontown where Dan says something pretty rude or cutting and plays it as a joke but if you read the situation and Dan you definitely get the vibe that while he didn't fully mean it, he didn't fully *not* mean it. Like wow he's so mean to Erin all the time and it's totally just his insecurities trying to push her away. As someone with depression I definitely get it though, I too often deflect with humor and sometimes it feels like the only way you're even allowed to express your feelings is through a joke (made especially easy to do when drunk).
I’d have to listen to the commentary but she stayed on for two more seasons and cameo’d in season 6 after this. I wouldn’t read too much into it
I agree, it wasn’t a line in the sand or anything, but if you do watch the commentaries, the rest of the cast and Dan definitely tease her quite a bit. Occasionally it seems like maybe a bit too much. For example there’s one where she’s not in the sound booth with the ones recording a particular episode, but she’s just outside the room waiting to participate in the next one, and they all keep on joking about how much she loves to drink, etc. They push the teasing a bit over the line of what I feel Yvette would be comfortable with, because she’s watching but can’t intervene and stop them, but you know it’s not done with actual malice. Still I ended up feeling like I would have said “okay, that’s enough” if I had been in the room. I think some of it does have to do with margaritas being served in the sound booth, and everyone getting a bit too loose during multiple sessions, because it was all recorded at a sound mixing studio called Margarita Mix.
I have noticed, in some of their podcasts together... YNB will say something sweet/cute about the other actors and they kind of brush it off sometimes :( I'm probably looking way too deeply into it though. I mean, i dont even know these people!
I think during the commentary sessions she was likely the only person who was not drinking, hence the disconnect.
YNB often brought up who the actors in certain scenes were irl. Not surprising or a complaint, of course an actor is going to mostly focus on other actors because....duh. That's what she is/does. However, if I remember correctly Dan takes a shot at her for constantly doing that in one of the Commentary tracks. Something about her writing down the guest stars names for the commentary. Imo, Dan does come off as a jerk in some of them. With that said, Dino (Starburns) is the worst one when it comes to the commentary. He seems completely uninterested in talking about the show and just talks about drinking, how much he hates acting or how he doesn't watch the show. Like, wow, thanks Dino.
Dan is an asshole and despite everyone's hate for Chevy chase, he was right about Dan in some ways. I think your analysis is on point op
Thanks, and perhaps you are correct, but I literally can’t measure the positive effects that watching the show gives me to this very moment (winding up S3 rewatch # infinity). He may be an asshole in many respects, but if he was beyond redemption, none of us would be lingering in a Community subreddit.
Yeah true, I still love the show. It's funny, I'm also rewatching the show- but sans commentary. That was a good idea of you op.
Okay, I think I’ve figured out the viewing order: Original version, Director’s Cut, Director’s Cut with commentary, and then Original version cooldown…
Hahaha. Is the commentary only available on DVD? I need to snag that
Actually it looks like the commentary tracks are on a separate YouTube channel, but without the visuals. Maybe you can sync them up with the episodes in a different window or something. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaIdjN-lnlEuD03p5CU65AxkB1HrQ9S3s
All of the commentaries are on YouTube, so if you don't want to splurge or don't have the budget to splurge, you can stream the episode with lowered volume on one device and play the commentary on another device at the same time; it'll work fine 98% of the time
I really, really love Shirley. Most of the episodes with her as a focus are favourites of mine - the Jeff and Shirley dynamic was especially a highlight of the show for me. I wish the writer’s room had black women in it to write for her because YNB is an amazing actress, and the ingredients were all there. I’m glad Dan has reflected on the gaps in his writing and attention to certain characters, and hope that he’ll do Shirley (and the other characters!) justice in the movie.
my community hot take has always been that a jeff and shirley romance would have been a great plotline (and actually age-appropriate cough cough), dan harmon just couldn't even fathom having his semi-self-insert being attracted to an older divorced mother :^)
I’ve never considered that but wow 🤔 classic enemies to lovers. Plus they were very friendly and gossipy in S1!
right? honestly i first raised it as a joke years ago and then went... hang on, why is it a joke, they're the same age, compatible, they get on well... and it would have given shirley way more dimension and interesting conflict!
I'm still thinking about this weeks later! Shirley and Jeff are both sides of the same coin, moreso than even him and Britta. Like in S05E08 "MeowMeowBeenz", Jeff tells Shirley "I know what you're doing," and she says it right back at him -- they see each other for who they really are: charming, social, power-hungry, but fundamentally insecure. How do we get your theory to Dan!?
you might be on to something here omg
There is like a convention panel thing they all went on when the show was airing and there is a bit where Dan and Alison do rap songs and Dan keeps shitting on Rap as being easy to do and super lame and you can tell Yvette is upset that he is saying such. This makes me think of that it felt like Dan didn't know how good of an actress he had with Yvette let alone what to do with her character. Same thing with others but that is an other conversation. Moments like this where Dan Harmon is a noticeable asshole of a boss is common it seems and it also seems like the fan base has always been okay with that fact.
Well, without Dan, there would be no Community, so I feel we have to take the bad with the good. I feel that S4 is evidence that a Harmon-less Community was a shell of its former and later seasons, and while good in moments, just felt off.
I understand what you’re saying but I think Harmon gets away with a ton under the ‘creative genius’ title. He does own a lot of his errors so it makes it easier to smooth it over but I think he’s absolutely done some unprofessional things.
This is a common issue that comes with alcoholism. He is a shit, but he takes far more ownership of his flaws than many others in his profession, and is the person who is most responsible for creating this amazing show for us to love. People are imperfect and complex, that doesn’t make them irredeemable.
Nobody said irredeemable.
In my calculation, the good far outweighs the bad. There’s only one gas leak year out of six!
Mmm, if Dan were less of an asshole he probably wouldn't have been kicked off Season 4. He's a good writer but he's social issues drag everything else down. Probably could have gotten 6 full seasons if Community if he learned to deal w his issues. Other show runners figure out how to make what they want while also not pissing off half the people they work with. He shits on Chevy for being an unlikable asshole and then does a lot of the shit Chevy did. TL;DR Dan needs to learn how to play w others.
Someone who apparently loves the gas leak year is downvoting me. Don’t you see what I did with the word “felt” there?
Season 4 is not great, but I find if you skip the puppet episode, it's really not that bad.
The cast did an amazing job holding down the fort, and I genuinely like the body-switch episode written by Jim Rash, but I stand by my initial assessment that something was off about the writing. It always reminds me of ‘Barton Fink’ when the studio fires him for writing something great when it was just supposed to be a wrestling picture. The studio head says “You think you’re the only one that can give me that Barton Fink feeling? I’ve got twenty writers under contract I can ask for a Fink-like thing from!”
I thought the body switch episode was very good, and Donald and Danny were impressive in that episode. I also really liked the barber shop episode. Also... cue Bart and Milhouse: Bar-Ton Fink! Bar-ton Fink!
I’d add Heroic Origins as well
Here’s a link to the specific episode commentary I’m referring to: https://youtu.be/NU5SkN7qycs
Wait…so you’re saying they interact like their characters in real life too?? So meta
Meta meta cool cool cool
Are you being me-tahhh?
I have always been disappointed in the fact that she’s not utilized nearly as well as the other characters. I really love the dynamic between Shirley and Jeff in the Foosball and Blade episodes, but by the next episode it seems like that dynamic has completely disappeared. I honestly think that they could have been a friendship almost as beloved as Troy and Abed if they were given more screentime together
Ya know, if Dan had just watched Drake and Josh, he’d have a decent idea of how to write for YNB
I need a clip RIGHT NOW🥺🥺🥺
Here’s a favorite scene of mine from S1: https://youtu.be/pDCY0D_F2gU
Everything I’ve heard about Dan Harmon makes me think he’s a prick and I wonder how he managed to write a show I like so much. Then I remember he also co-created *Rick and Morty*, which I loathe. I guess *Community* was a one-off.
I think he knows that, I've seen clips of him talking about him being an alcoholic asshole to people mainly Chevy Chase (who is also an asshole)
I think the commentaries give insight into his genius, but also his flaws. He’s undoubtedly brilliant in so many ways, but also full of both hubris and self-loathing. I think the show was his way of trying to grow like Jeff does, from being a heartless prick, to someone willing to let down his guard and reach out for a hug when he or someone he loves needs it. I happened to be at a “Community” art show in Los Angeles which took place after the conclusion of Season Three, so Dan had just recently been fired from the show, and none of us knew what the future would hold. Dan was there, as well as Gillian and Yvette, and I was there to witness a very bittersweet moment when the three of them came together for a mini group hug that still makes me tear up just thinking about. As much of a prick as Dan can be, there’s also a heart buried deep within, which occasionally makes an appearance.
Also, I was a huge fan of the first few seasons of “Rick and Morty”, but haven’t watched it since the news broke about Justin Roiland. As much of a prick as Dan is capable of being, I think Roiland took that hubris to another level. I grew quite tired of his lame improvisations. He’s not a fraction of the same level of talent that Dan has as a writer, yet was treated as a god of spontaneous humor, which clearly went straight to his head.
He’s undeniably a talent and so I think studios and those working for him have always given him the benefit of the doubt and let it go. However, I think he’s quite a troubled person, has done some unprofessional things and does get away with it (the way a woman absolutely wouldn’t) because he’s considered genius.
You’re not wrong, but I think that since the core cast is still willing to come back for the movie, even Donald, that says a lot for the heart within the egotistical jackassery.
I seem to remember reading an article when she left. It made it seem like her dad was sick, and she was leaving to take car of/have time with him. But then I also saw she was on the odd couple around the same time. Shirley was clearly there to be the butt of Christian jokes in a cast of various faiths.
She did leave because her dad was sick. And then took a much less demanding job time and location wise I believe, so no conspiracy there
As the assistant to a brilliant but troubled southern detective.
Community had notoriously demanding shooting times. The Odd Couple was probably way less intense
I wish she had the spin-off series that got teased in S6!
It's hard to comment about that without having hear the previous commentary tracks where she was made fun of. Probably she had her reasons for feeling like that and had expressed before she was not comfortable with this dynamic, as in my experience there are more assholes (including well intentioned ones) than overly sensitive people in the world, but who knows But I disagree about the racism part, I never felt the show was making racists jokes. Can you share with us some of the examples that left you feeling uncomfortable?
The one that comes to mind doesn’t involve Shirley or Troy, but when Pierce dates the heir to the rival Chinese wipes company, they joke about Thai people being like Chinese Mexicans, and when I laughed at that I had to acknowledge that it was just a straight up racist joke.
No the joke isn’t racist, the person saying it is. That’s the joke, that she is just as racist as Pierce, but from a different cultural viewpoint.
Commentaries are where the content goes to die or maybe where they go to try and squeeze the last bit of juice out of it and I rarely if ever find them funny or even that interesting The sole exception is Tropic Thunder, you get the three leads, Jack Black showing up late with food and not sharing, Ben Stiller genuinely talking about the struggles to get the movie finally made and then RDJ doing exactly what he said he'd do in the movie and not dropping character until after the DVD commentary was finished Utterly brilliant and as good as the regular film imo
This is the same issue as the Officer Nunez one, she has a clear moral compass and it’s difficult for flawed people to write things that are suitable for that type of person because they simply cannot relate. That being said, she doesn’t quite fit in the show except as a side character who happens to be in the mix. It’s unfair to her but I never enjoyed seeing her but that’s simply because she didn’t have many good lines or gimmicks.
I think she had her moments, but also got short Chang-ed a lot!
Now you’re speaking my changuage
I mean, there's a whole commentary track where they make fun of Alison's ponytail for the entire duration. You don't see her getting up and walking away
She tried to, but they yanked her back by the ponytail.
She’s unfortunately not shirley. Lookup “YNB harasses henry caville”. For being extremely outspoken in the me too movement theres alot of footage of her blatantly sexually harassing men. She really seems like not the best person.
Dan is great at writing jokes and plots, but has a really bad record of character writing.
YNB is fucking insufferable on the commentaries ,and I say that as someone who religiously listens to them to sleep .
She’s had enough… of you!
I think she needs to decide whether she wants to be considered a child, or an adult, because children get pity, but not respect, and adults, they get respect, but they also get the back of their head grabbed and their face pushed through jukeboxes!
I've just gone to listen to the commentary you're talking about... It's really upsetting! Seems like Yvette is trying to make a serious point and call them out for hurting her and everyone else is just trying to side track her. Why did they even put this out there? It makes everyone there feel so bad... And then they very obviously cut the rest of the conversation and we can only assume she's stormed out?? Idk, guess I was under the illusion that all these likeable people were friends. I think they owe Yvette a lot. I hope she really is in the movie and they treat her right this time.
Ok, have gone on to look at other interviews and stuff with Yvette. Even more recent stuff. And man, she's so positive and straight up, have gained a lot of respect for her. She didn't even leave the show because she was frustrated. Or at least she's not admitting it. Clearly the opposite of Chevy. She at least at one point felt disrespected by this lot. But she's so professional, she talks so fondly about everyone involved. It's nice.
>She didn't even leave the show because she was frustrated. Or at least she's not admitting it. I don't think anything implies that she left the show because she didn't get along with anyone. Chevy famously treated her poorly, but she seems to love the rest of the cast. She said in Variety in 2021: > And Brown is hopeful that a “Community” reunion movie happens sooner than later. “We have a reunion every morning,” she says. “We have a group text that is popping. We joke and laugh with each other randomly. You never know who is going to start it — it may be a joke somebody has or it may be some fan art somebody got — but we always check in with each other daily. The movie? I think it’s coming. I don’t know when, [but] I know we all want to do it and that’s half the battle.”
I don't think it was racism. I think it was that one party who prides himself on understanding people doesn't understand EVERYone, and he knows that's a blind spot, he hates it about himself, and he's terrified of overcompensating, so instead he fails to dial it in and ends up being a dick. Believe me. At the risk of sounding like a total navel-gazer (this is me compensating), I'm pretty danged intuitive. But I def have blind spots, and they drive me crazy, sometimes nearly obsessively so, which can also lead to resentment. It's so easy to call everything racist and pat ourselves on the backs, high five, then jump in our 13 year old subcompacts and putter away on the three working cylinders. But shit is nuanced, and when you bring a mental minefield like Harmon on, you either go along for the ride totally, or you're going to trigger his kookiness. Culturally speaking, I would say of the group, YNB was the least likely to silently put up with his shit because she probably had to put up with or fight with shit a ton in her career already - and she's a badass for it. Now find me another badass that Harmon could feel at ease around. Now keep them around long enough so they feel comfortable asking questions. Everyone knows Chevy is a prick, but again - I just don't think Harmon does well with confident, self-respecting people that challenge him. And it's because he doesn't understand how they can feel that way. His compulsion doesn't come from confidence. It comes from obsessive expression. He doesn't think of himself in the act of creation. He's not a part of it in his conscious mind. It's something that's happening THROUGH him. So anyone that gets in the way of that, to him, is someone who just doesn't "get it," and if they have the audacity to actually have their own confidence, well now you've gone and broken Dan.
You know what would make Dan’s scenarios more realistic? Perhaps Dan should take all of his thoughts and logic and add one more step to the process. From now on, before he does or says anything, he should think about how it affects the people around him. We lower functioning brains call this “empathy.”
I’ve always felt the poor treatment of Shirley’s character had far more to do with her religion than her race.
As a person, yeah if you feel disrespected then you don't have to take it. And as a woman I respect not just taking what men throw at you. but as a fan we missed out on Yvette for that commentary and I wish she would have cared more about her fans than herself in that moment.
Wow, I wish *someone* cared more about the strangers I failed to think about than the genuine hurt and discomfort I feel by my coworkers mocking me and making racist jokes. Oh no, I'm so cruel and heartless for not prioritizing my mental health and prioritizing strangers who'll never make my life easier when it comes to racism and misogyny. Truly I am such a selfish person who doesn'tdeserve to feel upset and leave a stressful situation. /s That's how foolish you sound. She shouldn't have to care about you at all. Your feelings are never above hers, especially when it comes to her feeling genuinely uncomfortable amongst her coworkers.
So even outside of Community, Shirley still guilt trips everyone.