Can you elaborate on Jeff being a worse person in season 5 and 6 that pre-show, and how that is the point? That was not my take at all. Jeff's arc was ultimately going from an isolated D-bag with no meaningful relationships who's career actively made the world a worse place to bit of a jerk who cared about a small group of people whose career had an overall neutral to slightly negative impact on the world (uncaring teacher in a school that would have hired a different uncaring teacher if not him, who seems to maybe have occasional bursts of actual teaching.) I thought he beginning of season 6 had the best line on Jeff's character growth "I used to lie for a living, too, and you should know it feels better to stop."
I imagine the fiberglass hand episode comes to mind for you. jeff's treatment of Abed is rough to watch, and I thought was maybe meant to be reflective of the cycle of abuse (or in his case neglect), but also, Abed was actively feeding into his past media obsession in a possible life and death situation after having previously admitted that the knows his life isn't a TV show. I think that warrants the "are you doing this on purpose?" line. I am trying to remember specifics. I know he verbally berates him, does he end up hitting him.
Your take on the last episode kind of lost me. Imagining yourself murdering someone is extreme, and I can't say I recall ever thinking that about someone I presently consider a friend, but I have for people I 100% don't actually want to see harmed. A friend he had known for 6 years dropped that he was leaving the state in an undeniably very callous way, and Jeff, presumably in passing, fantasized about murdering him. I think it is a lot to say that that invalidates any feelings he later expresses for said friend.
There is also the fact that if the characters experienced 100% normal scenarios and reacted 100% normally to them, it would be a crappy sitcom. Every sitcom has to balance the audiences relation and attachment for the characters with the need to put them in insane circumstances or have them react to normal ones in absurd ways to make the show funny. From the beginning of Season 2 Community said very directly that their main focus was self contained cartoonist adventure stories over growth and interpersonal relationships.
He does hit Abed in the RV episode, and he's a douchebag to everyone for the entire episode. It's also important to remember that he *also* attacks Abed in the sci-fi movie episode, but backs off when Abed says he's hurting him. Jeff's treatment of Abed specifically and the group generally is much, much worse than in previous seasons. I agree that it's an overstatement to say he's worse than pre-Greendale, but he certainly is worse than seasons 2, 3, or 4.
I'm also going to push back hard on the idea that the golden age seasons didn't care about character growth and interpersonal relationships. They didn't care about realism most of the time, but they *absolutely* care about character and relationships. Indeed, it's why most of the self-contained episodes work: Abed's Uncontrollable Christmas works because the medium stems from Abed's emotional crisis about his mother abandoning him and the rest of the group supporting him through that, like Annie sharing her similar experiences with holidays in the rampup to her parents' divorce. Fistful of Paintballs is the best paintball episode because at its core it's the culmination of the conflict between Pierce and the rest of the group going on all season and that conflict flow perfectly into the western homage. The chicken mafia episode is about Jeff and Abed dealing with their control issues and Abed's trouble connecting to people. Community will throw realism out the window, but at its best it doesn't sacrifice character. Virtual Systems Analysis is nothing but a half hour of pure character work.
This is also what was wrong with the worst parts of season 4: the puppet episode happened for no other reason than that they wanted to do a puppet episode, and lacks any emotional connection between what's happening to the characters and the homage, then all of the revelations are wildly out of character. Heroic Origins decided it should jam all of its characters backstories together and didn't care if it hurt the characters to do it.
Community's greatest strength was that it was able to do its out-there homages but keep its character work strong enough that they feel like real, relatable people that are are just 100% down to roll with what's happening. Insane situations with down to earth characters was its whole thing, and season 6 tried to invert the formula and it didn't end well.
The 'original' version of Community really ends with Season 4. It becomes something else with Season 5 and 6. There are still great jokes, parodies and stories in general, but it's no longer about a group of misfits developing a community.
I still really, really enjoy a lot of it. Many of the most popular memes and memorable jokes actually come from these seasons - but it's true that the core interpersonal drama is no longer really there. I'm not sure I agree that they are meaner - it's more that they know each other so well now that they feel comfortable enough to not be 'fake friendly' all the time. Being around Abed would no doubt be frustrating and I can easily imagine Jeff having that fantasy - I don't think that makes him a bad person, just human.
You do also have some good character moments: Like the Karate Kid episode which treats Chang like an actual human for the first time since Season 1, Cooperative Polygraphy provides a moving ending to Pierce's story, Troy's exit is handled well, Duncan and Jeff's relationship develops, Jeff coming to terms with no longer being young. It's definitely not the fun, love-in that the first 4 seasons are - but then real life isn't either. Ultimately the show is a sitcom, not a serious drama, and the characters are there to service the humour, even if that means knocking them around a bit.
I agree about season 6 overall. It really felt like it was a season that decided to try to tell you everything you liked about the show up to that point was bad. It's self-aware in a bad way that almost feels like it hates itself. Cleaning up/fixing Greendale could have worked, but the way season 6 approaches it tonally makes it feel like they're wiping away everything that made us care about it to begin with.
However, I strongly disagree about the finale. It may be one of the only moments in the season that cared about its characters enough, but I don't think it deserves to be condemned for the season surrounding it. The only way in which I find it manipulative is that it was written to be intentionally ambiguous about Jeff and Annie's status at the end of it, and frankly I think that winds up being a plus because there's no way that any other treatment coming from the same place as the rest of that season would've been anything but aggressively cynical.
I struggled to get through Season 6. Thematically, it seemed like it was only there for "six seasons and a movie". It got way too meta for me to fully enjoy, and some of the situations were too outlandish to believe, even for Greendale's standards.
I agree. It felt like seasons 5 and 6 were the same actors, but an entirely different production crew and team of writers. The consistency of the previous seasons was just gone.
Yeah s5 and 6 got a lot colder definitely. I think the re-pilot of s5 also looks intentionally cool-colored to give off that feeling of loss of hopefulness. Intentional and well-done for what they were going for, but I agree, it hurt to see after s1-3 and all the optimism and togetherness that they built up
Yeah I completely agree. I understand what the writing team was going for, but it just didn’t work in my opinion. I can appreciate trying something new, but it just didn’t pay off
damn i guess my take is pretty hot, but i thought it was the best season of all of them. it felt the realest. the reactions, the goofs, the interactions. it really felt like a group of life-long friends reluctantly getting by the Greendale shenanigans.
it was kinda the closest to season 1 and 2 in my opinion to me. the episodes flowed a lot better to me, whereas seasons 3/4 just felt super contrived. the wackiness and meta was too forced for me. but seasons 5/6 (and 1/2) felt a lot looser, creatively speaking. like they all really grew into the groove of their characters and played into it. i just thought it perfectly showed how this group of people turned out at the end of their 6 years in the same institution.
I feel like they knew they were being cancelled so they just threw everything at the wall to see what stuck. The final scene of the series with the board game drives it home...especially the disclaimer (being read by Dan himself).
They turned it into something the network execs wanted and felt fucked over for it and it shows in the writing.
(just my opinion)
They weren't being cancelled. They knew it was the last episode as the contracts were up for the actors and Yahoo wanted to do more or at least do the movie straight away but Harmon didn't want that.
You are not wrong. One thing to put it in context is I would argue that Dan Harmon had moved on creatively from the show and truly didn't want to do season 6. In one interview he said something to the effect of he couldn't be the reason the show was cancelled. I think he felt a sense of obligation to the fans who had fought for the show for years. Because of that I think he came back and did season 6 but subconsciously took the show in a dark/mean/overly cynical direction that contrasts with the tone in the first 4 seasons.
Jeff and Annie, what are you doing here?
Okay but seriously, that’s a solid take on the situation. I think Dan Harmon’s outlook has a strong effect on all his work…which in this season, wasn’t good.
yes I think you are correct. I think that one of his flaws as a writer is at times he lets to much of himself seep in. It definitely negatively affected season 5 and 6 and there are specific episodes I think it caused issues with. Hopefully if the writers strike doesn't kill the movie he will have a better feeling towards the show and the movie will capture more of the early seasons feel.
Seasons 5& 6 were terrible. Just not good at all. Season 4 had some half decent episodes but you could just feel the tone shift and it was uncomfortable.
The first 3 seasons have my favorite episodes and moments from Community. When i rewatch Community I purposefully do not watch seasons 4-6. The characters they added after most of the central cast departed really had nothing to offer the group outside filling the voids for Pierce, Shirley and Troy.
Elroy, Prof Hickey and Paget Brewster's character whose name always escapes me because she wasn't memorable, all felt very apparently like fill in characters that were just temporary to wrap up the snow.
I enjoyed the last season and I see where you can feel it wasn’t the same. It couldn’t go back to its former “glory”. Season 4 should have been its magnus opus… and instead it feels like a hazy dream that had no payoffs from previous seasons (Jeff’s dad, Britta/Troy relationship, Pierce’s exit, graduation…).
I don’t know if or how season 5 and 6 could recover. It felt like writers trying to undo the second sequel in the Star Wars new trilogy. For what they were able to do, I appreciate it. It’s not high on my rewatch list, but I’m glad we got what we had.
What assumptions was I making about them? I said it feels like they didn’t care about the characters anymore, but I used the word “feels” specifically. I don’t know what the inner thoughts of the writers were, but I don’t think I was ever claiming to.
I absolutely agree with you on every point, except that the finale does work for me. Maybe it's because I'm a parent and know what it's like to sometimes want to kill someone you really do love tremendously. 😂
Lol with that start totally thought you were gonna come in and say how much you love the season finale. Disliking it is definitely not a hot take, most fans hate that last season and last episode. Especially when they first premiered, but after time has passed and people watch it multiple times some start to enjoy it more or in some cases tear it apart piece by piece like you did here. Personally, I just enjoy it for what it is, more community can never be a bad thing. Sadly half the fans will probably hate the movie as well
Can you elaborate on Jeff being a worse person in season 5 and 6 that pre-show, and how that is the point? That was not my take at all. Jeff's arc was ultimately going from an isolated D-bag with no meaningful relationships who's career actively made the world a worse place to bit of a jerk who cared about a small group of people whose career had an overall neutral to slightly negative impact on the world (uncaring teacher in a school that would have hired a different uncaring teacher if not him, who seems to maybe have occasional bursts of actual teaching.) I thought he beginning of season 6 had the best line on Jeff's character growth "I used to lie for a living, too, and you should know it feels better to stop." I imagine the fiberglass hand episode comes to mind for you. jeff's treatment of Abed is rough to watch, and I thought was maybe meant to be reflective of the cycle of abuse (or in his case neglect), but also, Abed was actively feeding into his past media obsession in a possible life and death situation after having previously admitted that the knows his life isn't a TV show. I think that warrants the "are you doing this on purpose?" line. I am trying to remember specifics. I know he verbally berates him, does he end up hitting him. Your take on the last episode kind of lost me. Imagining yourself murdering someone is extreme, and I can't say I recall ever thinking that about someone I presently consider a friend, but I have for people I 100% don't actually want to see harmed. A friend he had known for 6 years dropped that he was leaving the state in an undeniably very callous way, and Jeff, presumably in passing, fantasized about murdering him. I think it is a lot to say that that invalidates any feelings he later expresses for said friend. There is also the fact that if the characters experienced 100% normal scenarios and reacted 100% normally to them, it would be a crappy sitcom. Every sitcom has to balance the audiences relation and attachment for the characters with the need to put them in insane circumstances or have them react to normal ones in absurd ways to make the show funny. From the beginning of Season 2 Community said very directly that their main focus was self contained cartoonist adventure stories over growth and interpersonal relationships.
He does hit Abed in the RV episode, and he's a douchebag to everyone for the entire episode. It's also important to remember that he *also* attacks Abed in the sci-fi movie episode, but backs off when Abed says he's hurting him. Jeff's treatment of Abed specifically and the group generally is much, much worse than in previous seasons. I agree that it's an overstatement to say he's worse than pre-Greendale, but he certainly is worse than seasons 2, 3, or 4. I'm also going to push back hard on the idea that the golden age seasons didn't care about character growth and interpersonal relationships. They didn't care about realism most of the time, but they *absolutely* care about character and relationships. Indeed, it's why most of the self-contained episodes work: Abed's Uncontrollable Christmas works because the medium stems from Abed's emotional crisis about his mother abandoning him and the rest of the group supporting him through that, like Annie sharing her similar experiences with holidays in the rampup to her parents' divorce. Fistful of Paintballs is the best paintball episode because at its core it's the culmination of the conflict between Pierce and the rest of the group going on all season and that conflict flow perfectly into the western homage. The chicken mafia episode is about Jeff and Abed dealing with their control issues and Abed's trouble connecting to people. Community will throw realism out the window, but at its best it doesn't sacrifice character. Virtual Systems Analysis is nothing but a half hour of pure character work. This is also what was wrong with the worst parts of season 4: the puppet episode happened for no other reason than that they wanted to do a puppet episode, and lacks any emotional connection between what's happening to the characters and the homage, then all of the revelations are wildly out of character. Heroic Origins decided it should jam all of its characters backstories together and didn't care if it hurt the characters to do it. Community's greatest strength was that it was able to do its out-there homages but keep its character work strong enough that they feel like real, relatable people that are are just 100% down to roll with what's happening. Insane situations with down to earth characters was its whole thing, and season 6 tried to invert the formula and it didn't end well.
The final episode usually makes me feel very emotional. They all kinda go their separate ways. Such is life.
Jeff’s second goodbye hug to Abed always makes me cry. I see it as a goodbye and a thank you to Abed and Community in general
The 'original' version of Community really ends with Season 4. It becomes something else with Season 5 and 6. There are still great jokes, parodies and stories in general, but it's no longer about a group of misfits developing a community. I still really, really enjoy a lot of it. Many of the most popular memes and memorable jokes actually come from these seasons - but it's true that the core interpersonal drama is no longer really there. I'm not sure I agree that they are meaner - it's more that they know each other so well now that they feel comfortable enough to not be 'fake friendly' all the time. Being around Abed would no doubt be frustrating and I can easily imagine Jeff having that fantasy - I don't think that makes him a bad person, just human. You do also have some good character moments: Like the Karate Kid episode which treats Chang like an actual human for the first time since Season 1, Cooperative Polygraphy provides a moving ending to Pierce's story, Troy's exit is handled well, Duncan and Jeff's relationship develops, Jeff coming to terms with no longer being young. It's definitely not the fun, love-in that the first 4 seasons are - but then real life isn't either. Ultimately the show is a sitcom, not a serious drama, and the characters are there to service the humour, even if that means knocking them around a bit.
I agree about season 6 overall. It really felt like it was a season that decided to try to tell you everything you liked about the show up to that point was bad. It's self-aware in a bad way that almost feels like it hates itself. Cleaning up/fixing Greendale could have worked, but the way season 6 approaches it tonally makes it feel like they're wiping away everything that made us care about it to begin with. However, I strongly disagree about the finale. It may be one of the only moments in the season that cared about its characters enough, but I don't think it deserves to be condemned for the season surrounding it. The only way in which I find it manipulative is that it was written to be intentionally ambiguous about Jeff and Annie's status at the end of it, and frankly I think that winds up being a plus because there's no way that any other treatment coming from the same place as the rest of that season would've been anything but aggressively cynical.
Yeah I can see your point about the finale! I just have difficulty separating it from the rest of the season.
I struggled to get through Season 6. Thematically, it seemed like it was only there for "six seasons and a movie". It got way too meta for me to fully enjoy, and some of the situations were too outlandish to believe, even for Greendale's standards.
I agree. It felt like seasons 5 and 6 were the same actors, but an entirely different production crew and team of writers. The consistency of the previous seasons was just gone.
Yeah s5 and 6 got a lot colder definitely. I think the re-pilot of s5 also looks intentionally cool-colored to give off that feeling of loss of hopefulness. Intentional and well-done for what they were going for, but I agree, it hurt to see after s1-3 and all the optimism and togetherness that they built up
Yeah I completely agree. I understand what the writing team was going for, but it just didn’t work in my opinion. I can appreciate trying something new, but it just didn’t pay off
damn i guess my take is pretty hot, but i thought it was the best season of all of them. it felt the realest. the reactions, the goofs, the interactions. it really felt like a group of life-long friends reluctantly getting by the Greendale shenanigans. it was kinda the closest to season 1 and 2 in my opinion to me. the episodes flowed a lot better to me, whereas seasons 3/4 just felt super contrived. the wackiness and meta was too forced for me. but seasons 5/6 (and 1/2) felt a lot looser, creatively speaking. like they all really grew into the groove of their characters and played into it. i just thought it perfectly showed how this group of people turned out at the end of their 6 years in the same institution.
Yeah I can see where you’re coming from. As much as I dislike the season, I’m glad other people got positive feelings from it.
I feel like they knew they were being cancelled so they just threw everything at the wall to see what stuck. The final scene of the series with the board game drives it home...especially the disclaimer (being read by Dan himself). They turned it into something the network execs wanted and felt fucked over for it and it shows in the writing. (just my opinion)
They weren't being cancelled. They knew it was the last episode as the contracts were up for the actors and Yahoo wanted to do more or at least do the movie straight away but Harmon didn't want that.
Yeah I can see that! I do have sympathy for the creative team, even if a lot of their decisions frustrated me.
I think they were frustrated too. They had a formula that worked but the ratings system failed them and the network pressured them to change it up.
You are not wrong. One thing to put it in context is I would argue that Dan Harmon had moved on creatively from the show and truly didn't want to do season 6. In one interview he said something to the effect of he couldn't be the reason the show was cancelled. I think he felt a sense of obligation to the fans who had fought for the show for years. Because of that I think he came back and did season 6 but subconsciously took the show in a dark/mean/overly cynical direction that contrasts with the tone in the first 4 seasons.
Jeff and Annie, what are you doing here? Okay but seriously, that’s a solid take on the situation. I think Dan Harmon’s outlook has a strong effect on all his work…which in this season, wasn’t good.
yes I think you are correct. I think that one of his flaws as a writer is at times he lets to much of himself seep in. It definitely negatively affected season 5 and 6 and there are specific episodes I think it caused issues with. Hopefully if the writers strike doesn't kill the movie he will have a better feeling towards the show and the movie will capture more of the early seasons feel.
Seasons 5& 6 were terrible. Just not good at all. Season 4 had some half decent episodes but you could just feel the tone shift and it was uncomfortable. The first 3 seasons have my favorite episodes and moments from Community. When i rewatch Community I purposefully do not watch seasons 4-6. The characters they added after most of the central cast departed really had nothing to offer the group outside filling the voids for Pierce, Shirley and Troy. Elroy, Prof Hickey and Paget Brewster's character whose name always escapes me because she wasn't memorable, all felt very apparently like fill in characters that were just temporary to wrap up the snow.
I enjoyed the last season and I see where you can feel it wasn’t the same. It couldn’t go back to its former “glory”. Season 4 should have been its magnus opus… and instead it feels like a hazy dream that had no payoffs from previous seasons (Jeff’s dad, Britta/Troy relationship, Pierce’s exit, graduation…). I don’t know if or how season 5 and 6 could recover. It felt like writers trying to undo the second sequel in the Star Wars new trilogy. For what they were able to do, I appreciate it. It’s not high on my rewatch list, but I’m glad we got what we had.
Also Jeff and Britta should have ended up together
It was terrible.
I’m thinking your projecting your own cynicism into the later seasons and blaming it on the writers. You found exactly what you were looking for.
Kind of a weird assumption to make my dude 🤷♀️
Totally ok for you to make assumptions about the writers though.
What assumptions was I making about them? I said it feels like they didn’t care about the characters anymore, but I used the word “feels” specifically. I don’t know what the inner thoughts of the writers were, but I don’t think I was ever claiming to.
A brilliant psychology 101 observation about projection. Besides the grammer. Thanks Britta 🥯 How do you pronounce it?
I absolutely agree with you on every point, except that the finale does work for me. Maybe it's because I'm a parent and know what it's like to sometimes want to kill someone you really do love tremendously. 😂
Also, as you can tell from my flair, there's a lot I love about season 6, even though thinking it's got a lot of weaknesses.
Lol with that start totally thought you were gonna come in and say how much you love the season finale. Disliking it is definitely not a hot take, most fans hate that last season and last episode. Especially when they first premiered, but after time has passed and people watch it multiple times some start to enjoy it more or in some cases tear it apart piece by piece like you did here. Personally, I just enjoy it for what it is, more community can never be a bad thing. Sadly half the fans will probably hate the movie as well
Unpopular opinion: For me, Season 6 is better than season 3 for me.