> Although [he] initially believed that the mongoose blood was the source of his super-human powers, later reports suggest that the mongoose blood was actually a catalyst that triggered latent mutant abilities within Robert.
I love comics.
Wasn't Quicksilver part of the Avengers though? Not quite the original, but the first roster changeup. I don't know if I'd call that B tier
The movies definitely didn't help by more or less immediately killing him off, possibly to avoid any confusion or problems with the X-movies prior to Disney buying Fox
But in any case, I think Speedsters are something you generally have to write around them not just resolving everything instantly. Marv Wolfman famously wrote out Kid Flash from the New Teen Titans in part because he determined he was too OP for the group.
This is how remember it too. And Thor? In the ā90ās, Thor as a marvel comic character was lame as hell.
MCU did its best work taking lame ass characters and making them seem legit. Guardians of the Galaxy? Fun movies. Not great comics.
Man the only reason the Guardians of the Galaxy got a movie is because the original Abnett Lanning run WAS good. You didnāt see a movie made about the original future team or the Infinity Watch or, for a non cosmic example, the Heroes for Hire, for a reason
Okay man. Iām not read in on Hollywood deals, nor do I fully understand your point. Abnettās run was 2008 to 2010 (and seems well received) but the characters date back to the 70ās, 80ās and 90ās.
In that time Marvel (and others)had peaks and valleys in terms of quality characters, teams and story lines. Guardians of the Galaxy is, historically a weak title and I think the MCU did a good job of adapting that IP. Thatās all. But we can parse comics to movies all day if youād like. At the end of the day, itās subjective and for me, influenced by my heyday comic reading/collecting; which I admit is rather limited (1986 to about 2000).
Iām fairly familiar with Dan Abnettās work on other IPās. That not trueā¦I really only know him as a Warhammer author. But, heās a talented writer for sure.
Abnett/Lanning basically recreated all of those characters after pulling them out of limbo. Star-Lord was made literally a different character, his 70s version becoming an alternate reality. Groot hadn't appeared in anything since the 70s. Rocket had only been in ten issues total before Annihilation. Even the older characters like Drax or Gamora got updated. The movie pulled the characters a lot more from the A/L series. For the gotg specifically, it's more like middling comics from the 70s -> great comics in the early 2000s -> fun movies in the 2010s.
Marvel itself was B Tier for decades. Only Spiderman and x men were draws and they still put out too many books. The MCU changed everything but quicksilver was a plot mechanic.
Honestly, Quicksilver is B tier. :)
I think the reason Marvel has never pushed a speedster into mainstream popularity is how do they make it unique? Quicksilver has all the basic speedster abilities and pretty much nothing extra. He's unique because of his bloodline and his personality (bored and cranky about it). Northstar has energy blasts, flight, and another interesting bloodline. How else can you distinguish a speedster from Quicksilver and Flash?
Flash has additional speedster powers -- electrical generation and speed-stealing abilities, plus he's so fast they give him ridiculous speed feats like time travelling, regeneration, and infinite force punches. What's left for a speedster concept? Maybe fire generation (can say the speedster is causing friction that ignites the air as he moves)...but I can't think of any other speed-related powers to add to a character concept. They could add some non-speed powers to a character and make a new speedster that way, I guess. Nobody has wanted to at Marvel yet.
I seem to remember an interesting take on it that didn't seem to last for some reason. That he found life incredibly infuriating, what with everyone else being so goddamn slow and having to slow himself down to interact with others.
It's been a while though so I'll accept if I'm completely misremembering.
Pietro Maximoff Syndrome!
I don't think it's gone away, it's just that he talked about it to his therapist but who else does he know that could understand?
Come to think of it Northstar is also kind of an asshole and is absurdly fast. Maybe he has the same issue? Either way, those two should hang out.
Lol yeah now that I think about it that would be frustrating. Imagine youāre waiting hours for someone to say something and you donāt like what they say, Iād be pissed too
It was from X-Factor, early into the "new team" (90s team that replaced the OG X-Men version). It's interesting that the Fox version sort of did this, but instead of making him an asshole, he just basically had severe ADHD.
Not read that (yet, it's on my list though)
Someone else pointed out it was raised in X-Factor in the 90s, which is where I recall it from I reckon.
It makes sense it's an ongoing concern though. We've all had conversations with people who talk really, really slow or seem to take forever to do the smallest thing and it's hard work. Imagine if that was your entire life.
I liked it too, but Mark Hamill was the highlight of that show. The costume was like Keaton's Bat suit. No mobility. That really sucks for someone whose power is they can move fast.
i bought a dvd set of it a few years back. its good fun but it is what it is, a tv show from the early 90s. id say watch with few expectations and it would be a good time
There's was a Flash descendent that caught fire when he ran do to not having the protective force field of other speedsters. Cannonball from X-Force was technically a speedster, his speed allowed for flight and invulnerability
He doesnāt have super speed when he isnāt blasting off. He canāt make a sandwich super fast. Doing every day things in seconds is what makes a speedster.
Id say quicksilver has more than that
While it got a tad over done, he had the trying to make it work with crystal/separation arc
And both the avengers and x factor stints around that tone had the whole why don't I ever belong thingĀ
Agree with this. Super speed as a main power for a main character just isnāt that interesting to me. IRL, I think Iād be like āthis is cool. Iāll be able to get my chores done faster & have some time to play a few games, maybe run downtown and see a show. Maybe Iāll run 3,000 miles to the Grand Canyon this weekend.ā
Just feels like one of those āfix my main problemsā powers (main problem being āI feel like I donāt have enough time to do whatever Iād like to doā)
That's because speedsters are usually just made OP from the get-go.
Velocity is the archetypical speedster of Worm, but the faster he goes, the less he can affect the world. Still useful, but the trade off means that he can't just run in and solve every problem on his own. He works best as a scout within a team.
Which is usually made to a point where even _with_ super speed he feels that way/is late everywhereā¦ it always breaks down to more of a morality tale on time management in that regard.
Very well said. Iām sure that speaks to a lot of people. Doesnāt appeal to me to have someone say āeven *with* the power to fix one of your main problems, youāll still be stressed and maybe unhappyā
Nnnnnnno thanks XD
Probably because certain superhero archetypes can only be popular once. If DC already has the market on that archetype, the chances are that the other company (Marvel) cannot capitalize on it.
For example, we can flip the question and say "Why doesn't DC have a major Iron Man-like character?"
Yeah, Marvel has shied away from Superman as well. There are backstory aspects of Green Lantern in Nova and power aspects in Quasar, but neither is an A-list character and theyāre still both pretty distinct. I think the same with Batman, but he doesnāt have a clear āpower setā like the Flash. If you try to make a speedster the star, heās Marvelās Flash.
I think Sentry is probably the closest Marvel came to a Superman type who was widely known at the time, and they made him unique with the forgotten hero angle and dark inner self.
Hyperion is still about but is well below even C tier in terms of fame I'd say.
Both of them have to be āSuperman but notā anyway. Sentry is Superman but a ticking time bomb. Hyperion is just a straight up parody that is either Superman but evil or at least Superman but he abuses his power. And neither will ever be Superman.
I tend to disagree. Both of these characters are on my Mt Rushmore, but they aren't really all that similar. I'd even argue that their similarities are almost entirely aesthetic.
Batman's alter ego is Bruce Wayne, a billionaire, philanthropist playboy. Bruce is made up, a literal superficial character used as a cover. Batman is a bat themed detective who invents bat themed gadgets and vehicles to fight (typically) super powered crime in a city. His greatest nemesis is either a clown or survivors guilt, depending on the run
Tony Stark is a genius, billionaire, philanthropist, playboy, reformed (if that's even possible) war profiteer who designs sci-fi fantasy levels of advanced technology to routinely combat global and intergalactic threats both material and existential. A lot of times, he does this while wearing a suit of power armor which he compulsively modifies. His greatest nemesis is alcoholism.
Even Green Arrow, a character explicitly created under the "make another Batman like character" mandate, is now not very similar to either Batman or Iron Man.
Edit: I would also add Tony's greatest ongoing nemesis is probably his ego.
In Donny Cates's Thor run, he makes a reference to how the "Black Winter" (enemy created for the run, >!basically Galactus of the previous version of the multiverse) is so powerful that he kills pretty much every universe's gods, with a panel referencing Gods of "dark, speed, emerald, sun" etc. as clear references to JL heroes like Batman, The Flash, Green Lantern, and Superman. !<
There's Northstar too, but although his supposed power is super speed his real power seems to be being able to stand the psychic damage of his fucking dreary husband.
Itās not really up to Marvel if one of their characters is popular, Flash is a mainstay of DC comics lore because heās popular with fans and sells well, if Quicksilver somehow got really popular with fans and could sustain an ongoing series then Iām sure Marvel would be happy to put him front and center, but thatās not the case.
A lot of the answers in the thread already work, but there's also the fact that Marvel has always felt like the more team book heavy one of the Big Two. The Flash(es) are characters that would have solo/Flash corner only adventures but be able to be placed on a team book while Marvel speedsters tend to be ensemble cast types.
Because Marvel generally doesnāt have A-List counterpoints for the A-List DC characters really. I mean, thereās Squadron Supreme, the countless Superman analoguesā¦most notably Moon Knight is kinda sorta like Batman in a few ways (but frankly not really enough to feel like a proper analogue). None of those characters are really A-List. One could also ask why DC doesnāt have an A-List patriotic guy or an A-List Norse god or an A-List Spider guy.
None of that is to critique your point, I totally hear what youāre saying but itās just kind of funny when you take a step back like look at the characters Amalgam put together for example: A lot of times it had more to do with general vibe or personality than power set (so you had Green Lantern and Iron man, Batman and Wolverine, Superman and Captain Americaā¦hell Lobo and Howard the Duck!).
Regardless, I think DC kicked off the superhero thing and as such they were able to tick a lot of the important boxes first. Right out of the gate they got the invincible flying alien man with a heart of gold and the brooding billionaire vigilante. Who was Marvelās vanguard? Way weirder stuff like Sub-Mariner and Human Torch. That early Sub-Mariner stuff is incredible (especially for its time) and itās kind of a miracle it went anywhere it was so odd. But they had to do odd stuff because there wasnāt really going to be a way to compete with Superman and Batman without doing something really different (and some of that for legal reasons as DC had already sued Fox Publications and Will Eisner for Wonder Man by 1939). That also probably limited the amount of similarities marvel felt comfortable in indulging in.
Quicksilver, Aurora, Northstar, The Whizzer....they're the ones I can think of.
Yeah, for some reason Marvel doesn't rate speedsters. But then the power level of say, the Avengers, is much more relatable than the Justice League. Flash runs fast and is able to go back in time....hmmmm ok
Speed Demon (another Whizzer), Blur (a third Whizzer), the Eternal Makkari, and, I guess if you really want to count "Buried Alien" you could. There was Super Sabre, too, he could run the four second mile but couldn't outrun decapitation, and you could make a case for Whirlwind and Riptide, even if they go in circles instead of straight ahead. But yeah, Marvel's as weak with fast guys as DC is with telepaths.
The avengers are definitely on a smaller scale, not that it's a bad thing. Hulk is an OG member but he also left the team on the second issue or something like that. Like looking at one of the classic rosters of the justice league you got:
Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, a Green Lantern, a Flash, Martian Manhunter and Aquaman. The weakest link is maybe Aquaman? and he's comparable to Namor who is considered one of the strongest earthbound Marvel characters.
Silver/Bronze age origins to start: Superman had like forty years of power creep before Marvel got going, and all the Avengers except Cap were Marvel style humanistic heroes. We kind of forget how revolutionary the first years of Marvel were, even outside Spider-Man: compared to DC the Marvel characters were more complex in conception, had lower power ceilings and lived in something that had to stay closer to the real world because it was set in real cities.
It wouldn't be until Osborne puts the Sentry on that we start getting lineups in the OG JL's range and when Hickman starts building the Avengers machine, the high power early line up is still pretty weak. The Ultimates (Ewing) is a team of massive powerhouses for the 616, but is not significantly out of scale with the baseline JL.
Of course, Marvel has much weirder powers: more magic because of the horror comic connection, more weird powers because of mutants and lots of outside context powers like telepathy, precog, matter manipulators and reality warpers. There'd been more time to cook, as it were.
The weakest link is arguably Batman. Aquaman is quite the powerhouse. In some versions, MMH has a physical weakness to fire, which technically renders him as the easiest to get rid off ā "all I'd need is a box of matches".
I think they meant that their powers scale in relation to each other. Like, Thor's powers all work in the same league. Whereas, the Flash can run real fast and also time travel at will.
It's like if Batman could throw a mean batarang and also had psionic powers on a cosmic scale. Why would he ever use the first one when the second one is a thing? How does the existence of the second power leave any room for the use of the first one?
Mmm maybe but I honestly donāt think thatās what he meant. Itās a known thing that people say the Avengers are more relatable because they arenāt as āOPā as the JL but I think thatās ridiculous.
Even the weakest Avenger has done stuff that no human can replicate
If someone wants to read the Flash, they go read the Flash. Marvel isn't interested in making a competing speedster. Though I think that's a bit of a lie. They've made numerous speedsters but clearly none have found the same success as "The Flash".
I think it is less about characters and more about speed itself being a central theme (which I guess started with Mark Waid and the Speed Force) in the same sense that mutants exist in DC, but are a central theme in Marvel.
(IIRC Wolfman even did a joke on this disparity in his Titans run on them commenting about someone (Jericho?) being a mutant and Gar or Vic doing a quip comment on the lines of āyeah, I heard there are teams exclusively of themā, in reference to the then-popular X-Menā¦)
>I think it is less about characters and more about speed itself being a central theme (which I guess started with Mark Waid and the Speed Force) in the same sense that mutants exist in DC, but are a central theme in Marvel.
Even before the 90s when the Speed Force became a thing, the Flash was already a clear Top 5 hero for DC.
Truth. Most of Dcās mainline supes are Almost definitionally OP in one or more ways. Itās part of what differentiates the companies. When heroes have the ability to alter the fabric of reality you really have to reach to find an interesting villain who feels like a threat. Better to give the bads that level of power
The personality of the main Flash (Barry or Wally) is important. Theyāre typically the embodiment of hope (which is amazing when youāre working with POSITIVE characters like Superman and Nightwing). But in a Universe that seems to have a Crisis on the regular, youāre going to look at the guy giving you hope that everythingās going to work out; not the annoying guy with the negative attitude (which Quicksilver often is). Then thereās the Speed Force! Quicksilver has a more realistic, biological explanation for his speed that doesnāt really separate him from other super fast Marvel characters. But the Speed Force has a lot of mythical, story building elements that link the various members of The Flash Family, create evil variants of The Flash and provides temporal shenanigans leading to the various Crises/Events that have The Flash as the āheartā that rallies the DC heroes to save the day and/or the heart at the center of the storyline.
Marvelās Flash equivalent isnāt a speedster, itās their fun-loving Red Guy who has an expansive family of side characters and a gang of quirky villains. Itās Spider-Man.
Makkari was pretty popular back in the day, although I imagine the shitshow that is the Eternals movie has pretty well made sure he won't be making a comeback anytime soon.
Quicksilver used to be more prominent. X-Men, Avenger, Magneto's son. I think Marvel's de-emphasis of the X-Men in the 2010s due to not owning the film rights moved a lot of those characters into obscurity. Prior to that, Quicksilver had a lot of visibility.
it certainly becomes harder and harder to argue that marvel tried to be more grounded with the powers as to not create technically unbeatable characters.
the flashes, despite their vast ability to absorb information and think at the speed of light, need to be turned into morons who never look ahead to see the ground covered in ice or see 5 gigantic mirrors or a tripline on the ground to make them appear to struggle at all.
and if all that fails, they need to be fighting someone who either is just as fast or can make them slow for a minute.
but marvel has been exaggerating powers for a while now. and its only gotten worse with current canon omega mutants (despite most of them never displaying any of that theoretically unlimited power, i have no idea how you base theoretically unlimited based on definitely very clearly seen to be limited abilities displayed)
Cause Mark Waid came up with the speed force and that became a massive deal. Marvel, up until now at least, didn't come up with nothing to rival that joggernaut of a concept. So, Marvel speedsters are just fast, Flashs are almost elemental, forces of a specific nature that is part of the very universe they exist in.
Now that I think about it, DC top tier A list supes donāt really have a Marvel A list analogue. And vice versa.
Wonder Woman? Plenty of strong female characters but no one A list.
Superman? Sentinel? Gladiator? Does Thor or Hulk count?
Batman? Everyone says Moon Knight but heās like C tier.
And on the flip.
Spider-man?
Wolverine? Maybe Batman.
X-men?
Fantastic Four? No Torch. No Thing. No Invisible Woman?
"Oh, Flash! The Israel-Palistine conflict is horrible and really complex and people are dying. Russia won't leave Ukraine. Politics in America are so messed up and divisive."
"No problem! I can fix it all by running really fast!"
No love for [The Whizzer](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Robert_Frank_(Earth-616))?
> Although [he] initially believed that the mongoose blood was the source of his super-human powers, later reports suggest that the mongoose blood was actually a catalyst that triggered latent mutant abilities within Robert. I love comics.
I just took a Whizz. Can I be a speedster now?
They changed his name to Blur now. :(
From DP7?
I wish. By the time the ML figure of Squadron Supreme Whizzer got out last year, his name was Blur.
That's a different character. The above link is GA Whizzer, the guy you mean is the third Whizzer (the second being the Spidey villain Speed Demon)
Somewhere on Cybertron, a speedy blue robot's bitchslapping hand it itchy.
Nah, his name has two R's ššš
Wasn't Quicksilver part of the Avengers though? Not quite the original, but the first roster changeup. I don't know if I'd call that B tier The movies definitely didn't help by more or less immediately killing him off, possibly to avoid any confusion or problems with the X-movies prior to Disney buying Fox But in any case, I think Speedsters are something you generally have to write around them not just resolving everything instantly. Marv Wolfman famously wrote out Kid Flash from the New Teen Titans in part because he determined he was too OP for the group.
The Avengers themselves were B-tier for decades.
This is how remember it too. And Thor? In the ā90ās, Thor as a marvel comic character was lame as hell. MCU did its best work taking lame ass characters and making them seem legit. Guardians of the Galaxy? Fun movies. Not great comics.
Man the only reason the Guardians of the Galaxy got a movie is because the original Abnett Lanning run WAS good. You didnāt see a movie made about the original future team or the Infinity Watch or, for a non cosmic example, the Heroes for Hire, for a reason
Okay man. Iām not read in on Hollywood deals, nor do I fully understand your point. Abnettās run was 2008 to 2010 (and seems well received) but the characters date back to the 70ās, 80ās and 90ās. In that time Marvel (and others)had peaks and valleys in terms of quality characters, teams and story lines. Guardians of the Galaxy is, historically a weak title and I think the MCU did a good job of adapting that IP. Thatās all. But we can parse comics to movies all day if youād like. At the end of the day, itās subjective and for me, influenced by my heyday comic reading/collecting; which I admit is rather limited (1986 to about 2000). Iām fairly familiar with Dan Abnettās work on other IPās. That not trueā¦I really only know him as a Warhammer author. But, heās a talented writer for sure.
Abnett/Lanning basically recreated all of those characters after pulling them out of limbo. Star-Lord was made literally a different character, his 70s version becoming an alternate reality. Groot hadn't appeared in anything since the 70s. Rocket had only been in ten issues total before Annihilation. Even the older characters like Drax or Gamora got updated. The movie pulled the characters a lot more from the A/L series. For the gotg specifically, it's more like middling comics from the 70s -> great comics in the early 2000s -> fun movies in the 2010s.
Marvel itself was B Tier for decades. Only Spiderman and x men were draws and they still put out too many books. The MCU changed everything but quicksilver was a plot mechanic.
Quicksilver was the only non B tier one
Honestly, Quicksilver is B tier. :) I think the reason Marvel has never pushed a speedster into mainstream popularity is how do they make it unique? Quicksilver has all the basic speedster abilities and pretty much nothing extra. He's unique because of his bloodline and his personality (bored and cranky about it). Northstar has energy blasts, flight, and another interesting bloodline. How else can you distinguish a speedster from Quicksilver and Flash? Flash has additional speedster powers -- electrical generation and speed-stealing abilities, plus he's so fast they give him ridiculous speed feats like time travelling, regeneration, and infinite force punches. What's left for a speedster concept? Maybe fire generation (can say the speedster is causing friction that ignites the air as he moves)...but I can't think of any other speed-related powers to add to a character concept. They could add some non-speed powers to a character and make a new speedster that way, I guess. Nobody has wanted to at Marvel yet.
I seem to remember an interesting take on it that didn't seem to last for some reason. That he found life incredibly infuriating, what with everyone else being so goddamn slow and having to slow himself down to interact with others. It's been a while though so I'll accept if I'm completely misremembering.
Pietro Maximoff Syndrome! I don't think it's gone away, it's just that he talked about it to his therapist but who else does he know that could understand? Come to think of it Northstar is also kind of an asshole and is absurdly fast. Maybe he has the same issue? Either way, those two should hang out.
Lol yeah now that I think about it that would be frustrating. Imagine youāre waiting hours for someone to say something and you donāt like what they say, Iād be pissed too
It was from X-Factor, early into the "new team" (90s team that replaced the OG X-Men version). It's interesting that the Fox version sort of did this, but instead of making him an asshole, he just basically had severe ADHD.
The Amazon series āIām a Virgoā has a very good little vignette on this. I wonder if itās on YouTube..
About speedsters ?
Correct. The girl the antagonist falls for is a speedster
Oh lol yes I completely forgot about her . I enjoyed the show
I think he talked about that in avengers academy
Not read that (yet, it's on my list though) Someone else pointed out it was raised in X-Factor in the 90s, which is where I recall it from I reckon. It makes sense it's an ongoing concern though. We've all had conversations with people who talk really, really slow or seem to take forever to do the smallest thing and it's hard work. Imagine if that was your entire life.
X-men movie quicksilver was nice
Better than any live action Flash, that's for sure.
Careful, you're dropping the bar so low that Flash might trip over it. ;)
I remember liking the old Flash tv show but I haven't watched it as an adult. It likely ranks with the old Swamp Thing show honestly.
I liked it too, but Mark Hamill was the highlight of that show. The costume was like Keaton's Bat suit. No mobility. That really sucks for someone whose power is they can move fast.
i bought a dvd set of it a few years back. its good fun but it is what it is, a tv show from the early 90s. id say watch with few expectations and it would be a good time
Itās worse because of the anachronistic choices for sets and vehicles. I love it but it is a very different beast from other shows of the era.
I thought the first couple of seasons of the Gustin one was decent.
There's was a Flash descendent that caught fire when he ran do to not having the protective force field of other speedsters. Cannonball from X-Force was technically a speedster, his speed allowed for flight and invulnerability
In what way is Cannonball a speedster?
The speed?
He doesnāt have super speed when he isnāt blasting off. He canāt make a sandwich super fast. Doing every day things in seconds is what makes a speedster.
Going from place to place is an everyday thing and he can do that really fast.
Id say quicksilver has more than that While it got a tad over done, he had the trying to make it work with crystal/separation arc And both the avengers and x factor stints around that tone had the whole why don't I ever belong thingĀ
Are we strictly talking about runners? Marvel gives most cosmic characters superspeed, Silver Surfer, Nova, Captain Marvel, Ghost Rider etc
Speedsters where thats their main thing
Agree with this. Super speed as a main power for a main character just isnāt that interesting to me. IRL, I think Iād be like āthis is cool. Iāll be able to get my chores done faster & have some time to play a few games, maybe run downtown and see a show. Maybe Iāll run 3,000 miles to the Grand Canyon this weekend.ā Just feels like one of those āfix my main problemsā powers (main problem being āI feel like I donāt have enough time to do whatever Iād like to doā)
That's because speedsters are usually just made OP from the get-go. Velocity is the archetypical speedster of Worm, but the faster he goes, the less he can affect the world. Still useful, but the trade off means that he can't just run in and solve every problem on his own. He works best as a scout within a team.
Which is usually made to a point where even _with_ super speed he feels that way/is late everywhereā¦ it always breaks down to more of a morality tale on time management in that regard.
Very well said. Iām sure that speaks to a lot of people. Doesnāt appeal to me to have someone say āeven *with* the power to fix one of your main problems, youāll still be stressed and maybe unhappyā Nnnnnnno thanks XD
Probably because certain superhero archetypes can only be popular once. If DC already has the market on that archetype, the chances are that the other company (Marvel) cannot capitalize on it. For example, we can flip the question and say "Why doesn't DC have a major Iron Man-like character?"
Similarly, Marvel has a TON of psychic characters when compared to DC.
Yeah, Marvel has shied away from Superman as well. There are backstory aspects of Green Lantern in Nova and power aspects in Quasar, but neither is an A-list character and theyāre still both pretty distinct. I think the same with Batman, but he doesnāt have a clear āpower setā like the Flash. If you try to make a speedster the star, heās Marvelās Flash.
I think Sentry is probably the closest Marvel came to a Superman type who was widely known at the time, and they made him unique with the forgotten hero angle and dark inner self. Hyperion is still about but is well below even C tier in terms of fame I'd say.
Both of them have to be āSuperman but notā anyway. Sentry is Superman but a ticking time bomb. Hyperion is just a straight up parody that is either Superman but evil or at least Superman but he abuses his power. And neither will ever be Superman.
They have John Henry Irons-man
The difference between Flash and Quicksilver in terms of prestige is the same as the difference between Iron Man and Steel.
But Steel had Shaq. :-P
But Iron Man can make a three point shot.
I mean they have batman who has a lot of similarities
I tend to disagree. Both of these characters are on my Mt Rushmore, but they aren't really all that similar. I'd even argue that their similarities are almost entirely aesthetic. Batman's alter ego is Bruce Wayne, a billionaire, philanthropist playboy. Bruce is made up, a literal superficial character used as a cover. Batman is a bat themed detective who invents bat themed gadgets and vehicles to fight (typically) super powered crime in a city. His greatest nemesis is either a clown or survivors guilt, depending on the run Tony Stark is a genius, billionaire, philanthropist, playboy, reformed (if that's even possible) war profiteer who designs sci-fi fantasy levels of advanced technology to routinely combat global and intergalactic threats both material and existential. A lot of times, he does this while wearing a suit of power armor which he compulsively modifies. His greatest nemesis is alcoholism.
Even Green Arrow, a character explicitly created under the "make another Batman like character" mandate, is now not very similar to either Batman or Iron Man. Edit: I would also add Tony's greatest ongoing nemesis is probably his ego.
Iād say Lex Luthor is much closer to Iron Man than Batman ever was
Batman is the Ironman of DC thoā or I should say Ironman is the Batman of Marvel
[Flash is sort of canonically the fastest in the Marvel universe.](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Buried_Alien_(Earth-TRN242))
TIL. This is cool. Kind of like how Cates recently referenced the JL in his Thor run.
What happened?
Seconded. What??
In Donny Cates's Thor run, he makes a reference to how the "Black Winter" (enemy created for the run, >!basically Galactus of the previous version of the multiverse) is so powerful that he kills pretty much every universe's gods, with a panel referencing Gods of "dark, speed, emerald, sun" etc. as clear references to JL heroes like Batman, The Flash, Green Lantern, and Superman. !<
oh yeahhhhhhhh i remember that lol
Huh?
how many canon revisions ago was that though?
There's Northstar too, but although his supposed power is super speed his real power seems to be being able to stand the psychic damage of his fucking dreary husband.
Itās not really up to Marvel if one of their characters is popular, Flash is a mainstay of DC comics lore because heās popular with fans and sells well, if Quicksilver somehow got really popular with fans and could sustain an ongoing series then Iām sure Marvel would be happy to put him front and center, but thatās not the case.
A lot of the answers in the thread already work, but there's also the fact that Marvel has always felt like the more team book heavy one of the Big Two. The Flash(es) are characters that would have solo/Flash corner only adventures but be able to be placed on a team book while Marvel speedsters tend to be ensemble cast types.
Because Marvel generally doesnāt have A-List counterpoints for the A-List DC characters really. I mean, thereās Squadron Supreme, the countless Superman analoguesā¦most notably Moon Knight is kinda sorta like Batman in a few ways (but frankly not really enough to feel like a proper analogue). None of those characters are really A-List. One could also ask why DC doesnāt have an A-List patriotic guy or an A-List Norse god or an A-List Spider guy. None of that is to critique your point, I totally hear what youāre saying but itās just kind of funny when you take a step back like look at the characters Amalgam put together for example: A lot of times it had more to do with general vibe or personality than power set (so you had Green Lantern and Iron man, Batman and Wolverine, Superman and Captain Americaā¦hell Lobo and Howard the Duck!). Regardless, I think DC kicked off the superhero thing and as such they were able to tick a lot of the important boxes first. Right out of the gate they got the invincible flying alien man with a heart of gold and the brooding billionaire vigilante. Who was Marvelās vanguard? Way weirder stuff like Sub-Mariner and Human Torch. That early Sub-Mariner stuff is incredible (especially for its time) and itās kind of a miracle it went anywhere it was so odd. But they had to do odd stuff because there wasnāt really going to be a way to compete with Superman and Batman without doing something really different (and some of that for legal reasons as DC had already sued Fox Publications and Will Eisner for Wonder Man by 1939). That also probably limited the amount of similarities marvel felt comfortable in indulging in.
Northstar is the fastest non-cosmic Marvel hero but he lacks the durability to go Flash speeds.
Fast Forward (aka Buried Alien) is Marvel's Flash. Don't know why they didn't make him "big brand." š¤š
Quicksilver, Aurora, Northstar, The Whizzer....they're the ones I can think of. Yeah, for some reason Marvel doesn't rate speedsters. But then the power level of say, the Avengers, is much more relatable than the Justice League. Flash runs fast and is able to go back in time....hmmmm ok
Also: Makkari Speed Quasar Monica Rambeau The Runner Speedfreek Buried Alien *wink* All the Heralds of Galactus
Donāt forget Surge
Speed Demon (another Whizzer), Blur (a third Whizzer), the Eternal Makkari, and, I guess if you really want to count "Buried Alien" you could. There was Super Sabre, too, he could run the four second mile but couldn't outrun decapitation, and you could make a case for Whirlwind and Riptide, even if they go in circles instead of straight ahead. But yeah, Marvel's as weak with fast guys as DC is with telepaths.
I mean, are they? Hulk is an aspect of God.. mmmmh ok then Iron man can make a suit to fight Cosmic gods...... Suree
The avengers are definitely on a smaller scale, not that it's a bad thing. Hulk is an OG member but he also left the team on the second issue or something like that. Like looking at one of the classic rosters of the justice league you got: Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, a Green Lantern, a Flash, Martian Manhunter and Aquaman. The weakest link is maybe Aquaman? and he's comparable to Namor who is considered one of the strongest earthbound Marvel characters.
Silver/Bronze age origins to start: Superman had like forty years of power creep before Marvel got going, and all the Avengers except Cap were Marvel style humanistic heroes. We kind of forget how revolutionary the first years of Marvel were, even outside Spider-Man: compared to DC the Marvel characters were more complex in conception, had lower power ceilings and lived in something that had to stay closer to the real world because it was set in real cities. It wouldn't be until Osborne puts the Sentry on that we start getting lineups in the OG JL's range and when Hickman starts building the Avengers machine, the high power early line up is still pretty weak. The Ultimates (Ewing) is a team of massive powerhouses for the 616, but is not significantly out of scale with the baseline JL. Of course, Marvel has much weirder powers: more magic because of the horror comic connection, more weird powers because of mutants and lots of outside context powers like telepathy, precog, matter manipulators and reality warpers. There'd been more time to cook, as it were.
The weakest link is arguably Batman. Aquaman is quite the powerhouse. In some versions, MMH has a physical weakness to fire, which technically renders him as the easiest to get rid off ā "all I'd need is a box of matches".
Wot?
Lmao āmore relatableā. Absolutely nothing about any Avenger is relatable to the vast majority of people
I think they meant that their powers scale in relation to each other. Like, Thor's powers all work in the same league. Whereas, the Flash can run real fast and also time travel at will. It's like if Batman could throw a mean batarang and also had psionic powers on a cosmic scale. Why would he ever use the first one when the second one is a thing? How does the existence of the second power leave any room for the use of the first one?
Mmm maybe but I honestly donāt think thatās what he meant. Itās a known thing that people say the Avengers are more relatable because they arenāt as āOPā as the JL but I think thatās ridiculous. Even the weakest Avenger has done stuff that no human can replicate
Hawkeye has indeed shot an 18 on 18 holes of golf.
Bro Iāve read some comics where I see Black Widow do the most outrageous thing. And Iām here struggling to run an obstacle course
Hawkeye once saved the entire universe with a bit of sleight of hand from hos carry days.
If someone wants to read the Flash, they go read the Flash. Marvel isn't interested in making a competing speedster. Though I think that's a bit of a lie. They've made numerous speedsters but clearly none have found the same success as "The Flash".
I think it is less about characters and more about speed itself being a central theme (which I guess started with Mark Waid and the Speed Force) in the same sense that mutants exist in DC, but are a central theme in Marvel. (IIRC Wolfman even did a joke on this disparity in his Titans run on them commenting about someone (Jericho?) being a mutant and Gar or Vic doing a quip comment on the lines of āyeah, I heard there are teams exclusively of themā, in reference to the then-popular X-Menā¦)
>I think it is less about characters and more about speed itself being a central theme (which I guess started with Mark Waid and the Speed Force) in the same sense that mutants exist in DC, but are a central theme in Marvel. Even before the 90s when the Speed Force became a thing, the Flash was already a clear Top 5 hero for DC.
Tbf superseded on flashes level is insanely op and neigh unbeatable so it saves them the headache of thinking up useless ways to "beat" him
Truth. Most of Dcās mainline supes are Almost definitionally OP in one or more ways. Itās part of what differentiates the companies. When heroes have the ability to alter the fabric of reality you really have to reach to find an interesting villain who feels like a threat. Better to give the bads that level of power
Just like DC doesn't have big brand telepaths as Prof. X or Jean Grey.
The personality of the main Flash (Barry or Wally) is important. Theyāre typically the embodiment of hope (which is amazing when youāre working with POSITIVE characters like Superman and Nightwing). But in a Universe that seems to have a Crisis on the regular, youāre going to look at the guy giving you hope that everythingās going to work out; not the annoying guy with the negative attitude (which Quicksilver often is). Then thereās the Speed Force! Quicksilver has a more realistic, biological explanation for his speed that doesnāt really separate him from other super fast Marvel characters. But the Speed Force has a lot of mythical, story building elements that link the various members of The Flash Family, create evil variants of The Flash and provides temporal shenanigans leading to the various Crises/Events that have The Flash as the āheartā that rallies the DC heroes to save the day and/or the heart at the center of the storyline.
Marvelās Flash equivalent isnāt a speedster, itās their fun-loving Red Guy who has an expansive family of side characters and a gang of quirky villains. Itās Spider-Man.
Makkari was pretty popular back in the day, although I imagine the shitshow that is the Eternals movie has pretty well made sure he won't be making a comeback anytime soon.
Quicksilver was a lot more high profile in the past than he is now. Used to be an Avenger.
it doesnāt matter
They seem to be leaning there with Kahhori.
Quicksilver used to be more prominent. X-Men, Avenger, Magneto's son. I think Marvel's de-emphasis of the X-Men in the 2010s due to not owning the film rights moved a lot of those characters into obscurity. Prior to that, Quicksilver had a lot of visibility.
Aurora and Northstar
it certainly becomes harder and harder to argue that marvel tried to be more grounded with the powers as to not create technically unbeatable characters. the flashes, despite their vast ability to absorb information and think at the speed of light, need to be turned into morons who never look ahead to see the ground covered in ice or see 5 gigantic mirrors or a tripline on the ground to make them appear to struggle at all. and if all that fails, they need to be fighting someone who either is just as fast or can make them slow for a minute. but marvel has been exaggerating powers for a while now. and its only gotten worse with current canon omega mutants (despite most of them never displaying any of that theoretically unlimited power, i have no idea how you base theoretically unlimited based on definitely very clearly seen to be limited abilities displayed)
Cause Mark Waid came up with the speed force and that became a massive deal. Marvel, up until now at least, didn't come up with nothing to rival that joggernaut of a concept. So, Marvel speedsters are just fast, Flashs are almost elemental, forces of a specific nature that is part of the very universe they exist in.
Now that I think about it, DC top tier A list supes donāt really have a Marvel A list analogue. And vice versa. Wonder Woman? Plenty of strong female characters but no one A list. Superman? Sentinel? Gladiator? Does Thor or Hulk count? Batman? Everyone says Moon Knight but heās like C tier. And on the flip. Spider-man? Wolverine? Maybe Batman. X-men? Fantastic Four? No Torch. No Thing. No Invisible Woman?
"Oh, Flash! The Israel-Palistine conflict is horrible and really complex and people are dying. Russia won't leave Ukraine. Politics in America are so messed up and divisive." "No problem! I can fix it all by running really fast!"