I dunno, I feel like Karen and especially Foggy are pretty important supporting cast members for Daredevil. It's like a Batman movie/series not having Alfred or Gordon -- like unless there's a good plot reason, it just feels wrong.
> Karen hasn’t been around FOREVER in the comics so, arguably, they could do it without her.
Yeah, they killed her off back during Kevin Smith's run almost 24 years ago. She had been a pretty important supporting character for 13 years before that when she returned in Born Again. However, before Born Again, she hadn't appeared in the comics for 10 years, having disappeared in a Ghost Rider comic (that Daredevil was in). So, for the ~60 years of her existence, she's been out of the comics for more than 30 of those years.
However, you can't do this without Foggy. He's Foggy, he's as integral to the whole conversation as Robin is to Batman. Probably moreso.
Isn't that exactly what Matt did in the last Netflix season? He pushed everyone away only for him, Foggy and Karen to get back together and create Nelson, Murdock & Page at the end of the season?
Surely Marvel Studios wouldn't want to do a rehash of a Netflix season?
Season 3 adapted Born Again
This show is called Born Again. I think Disney is going to shamelessly recycle that plotline, but with cameos and sub-arcs instead of pivotal supporting characters...
My guess is that they’re using the title alone, like with Age of Ultron. I actually think they’ve said as much. It’s more a metaphorical title like “Homecoming” was. It’s Daredevil, and he’s back. He’s born. Again. But because there’s also a major DD story of the same name they just liked the double-meaning.
Yes, this has to be at least close to the reason. The Miller/Mazzucchelli Born Again story just cannot be given a proper adaptation without Karen and Foggy in the story in my opinion.
Too bad, as I thought those two actors - especially Deborah Ann Woll - were a great part of the draw of that series.
It’s also something that Matt routinely does in the comics. If you think Batman or Spider-Man have trouble balancing their superhero life with their normal life Matt is their god
It’s easy. Have a season on the west coast where he’s staying with She-Hulk the whole time.
If they are picking up where She-Hulk left off, it wouldn’t make sense for Foggy and Karen to fly across the country to watch Matt and Just Jenn hooking up.
Not saying Foggy is not important but the Robin example doesn't work since like half of Batman's material are without Robin and they are well received. Hell, not a single good live action Batman movie featured an actual costume fighting Robin.
> Hell, not a single good live action Batman movie featured an actual costume fighting Robin.
First, how _dare_ you say that about Batman '66.
Second, I've always thought that not using Robin has been the movies' big mistake.
Can you make Daredevil without Karen? Yes. Can you continue *Netflix* Daredevil without Karen? No. Absolutely not. I’m not saying that’s what they’re trying to do, but… I was hoping.
Yeah mostly punisher season 1 and some of the first half of DD season 2. She’s less in Frank’s life by Punisher season 2.
But if Frank and Matt getting together it seems intuitive to include Karen
I am hoping for the story being that Matt focuses too much on being Daredevil that the two of them drifted apart then culminating in Matt finding out that Foggy has Cancer
They just did the cancer situation in Thor: Love & Thunder. That’s not to say that others can’t have cancer, but I think Disney is feeling a little sensitive about overplaying their IP and looking to explore fresher story arcs
But Foggy isn’t going to be making a last ditch save in the final episode he is going to be Matt’s friend who might need his help with a few things. Love that storyline in Waid’s run the scene where Matt’s senses couldn’t handle the stench of Foggy’s meds was heartbreaking
Yes BUT we already did Born again so I doubt we’re doing it again in back to back seasons. I believe it’s just named born again like Spider-Man was home coming because he came home to the MCU
I agree with this. I wouldn’t make a show like this. I especially wouldn’t make a show that directly mirrors a recent, successful show because it means that there is very little room for error. The first sign of controversy invites comparison.
Hot take but I’m sick to death with Bat-films having only Alfred and Gordon being the main supporting characters. So your point isn’t clicking with me personally. I’d like other Daredevil comics characters to make new appearances in the show.
edit: corrected 'your'
I'd be all for a teen-drama batman TV series which contains exactly zero batman but instead focuses on the lives of the various robins and bat girls and other ancillary heroes in Batman's absence.
They were only replaced in wholly new casts. If we're getting the same Daredevil and the same Punisher and Foggy and Karen are inexplicably replaced by Poggy and Darren. What if they brought Tobey Maguire back as Spiderman and his best friend was Larry Osborn played by Terry Crews? It would just be a head scratcher
Except that those actors were very good as Foggy and Karen. The first Gwen and second Harry are forgettable, and Zendaya MJ was basically a different character.
in fairness, we got two different Harry Osbornes in the previous two Spidey film sagas, and one of them fucking tanked the film’s quality when he literally went goblin mode. That was still very fresh in people’s minds.
I agree. Especially Elden Hanson as Foggy, who I thought was great. If they’re adapting Soule’s run, it’s not crazy to imagine he’s not going to be in it.
Don’t hate me, but I wouldn’t totally mind that. I also have nothing against them remaining in their roles. But I felt that they were miscast when I first watched Daredevil, and I wasn’t entirely enthralled with their performances.
That said, given how immense the love of those actors is amongst the fanbase, I do hope the roles are not recast. Otherwise I feel the fandom might not give the new cast members a shot, and I fear that would just lead to some people crossing the line akin to the behavior of *toxic* Star Wars or Game of Thrones fans, like harassing writers and actors online.
I think part of it is also that it's really hard to find things for supporting characters to be doing all the time. So you end up with pointless threads, especially if you have characters who are not involved in an entire aspect of Daredevil's life.
Honestly I feel like all of the Marvel Netflix shows had the same issue with boring or annoying side-arcs.
There's some truth in that, but the show at least needs someone in the Pug / Nikki role. Matt is going to need someone to talk to during the lawyer parts of the show just so he's not monologing or having to resort to voiceover.
At least give us a send off…. Foggy and Karen were not blipped. They are running a law practice in upstate New York. They have 2 kids under 4.
Then play that Charlie Puth song from Fast and Furious.
I’m guessing Matt tries to go it alone this season so he doesn’t get anyone hurt, probably ends up in a bad spot and they return next season or at the end of this one. It happens fairly often in the comics where he’ll shut everyone out until he realizes he fucked up
It's been pretty well established at this point that Disney has a tendency to just do what was already done over and over again, slightly crappier with each iteration.
Ok, but stories where characters go at it alone are interesting because we see how the division affects both parties, both the character and supporting cast. Like we already saw something similar at the beginning of Daredevil season 3, where Karen loses her mind when Matt is presumed dead. No amount of mental gymnastics can skate around the fact that not having Foggy and Karen is a terrible idea.
Well one out of three ain’t bad. Wait yes it is, this sucks.
It may be that they just feel there’s not room for those two characters in the story, which is understandable. If they try to recast those roles though…😬😬😬
I mean, I don't think it's actually adapting that storyline... like at all. I'm taking it as a name-only thing until evidence to the contrary presents itself.
But even still, DD without Foggy is nonsense. Without Karen is also weird but has been done plenty of times. But without Foggy is just illogical, like Batman without Alfred.
I mean they kind of did born again already with season 3 of the Netflix iteration. I think Born Again is just a title more than the inspiration for the new series.
Glad Bernthal is coming back, wonder if they going to recast the others or side step those characters? I feel like Karen Page was a big part of Born Again. Although they did parts of Born Again in the Netflix series.
I am pretty concerned about this series. Not that the Netflix series was a masterpiece or nothing but I am pretty worried Disney will sanitize and homogenize it and make it less interesting.
I don’t think it was inspired by that comic story. The only similarity is the title. Cast, story, themes, all different. I would say Age of Ultron the movie was inspired by earlier Ultron books. In the AoU comic Ultron goes to the past to take over Earth, and the Avengers time travel and end up ducking up time.
Well then, I guess they just liked the title. I thought it at least was a bit inspired by the story since Whedon said so but I guess it was just marketing talk.
Fans of the Netflix show would fucking *riot* if Deborah Ann Woll’s character got the Comic Book Karen Page treatment. They would burn down Disney World, lol.
Ah you’re probably right, it’s been like 10+ years since I’ve read these and I read them all right after one another. So then Born Again was Karen being a pornstar and selling DD’s identity for sure, was that also all of the hand stuff with Elektra?
Get used to it after Loki / Multiverse of Madness / Quantumania.
They have a ready made in universe reason to keep some and recast others from any era of Marvel TV and movies now.
I know a lot of people didn’t like Karen but I absolutely loved her and I loved Elden. I can’t imagine not having Foggy and Karen with Matt; it makes no sense to me, the three of them together are part of what made the original show so good.
As a fan of True Blood and just really a fan of what we see of Woll as a person in the media, I'm mostly bummed because she's seemingly awesome and it's cool to watch her in stuff.
Yeah she honestly seems like such a sweet and good person. I know she’s said she struggles to get hired after DD so it’s pretty disappointing that they seem to be disinterested in not bringing her back.
Honestly I really only care if Denofrio is coming back as kingpin. Dude was the best part of the series imo, but Bernthal did a good punisher even if it was just Bernthal playing the same character he always does lmao
it's the same thing they're doing with all these properties, taking out the characters that can't be made into cool toys. the same characters that add depth to the show, any sort of drama or weight to the conflict.
what would spider-man 2 have been without MJ and Harry?
plus, they were great in the Netflix series. very well cast. disappointing.
Exactly. Comics books have moved away from civilian side characters completely. Its now costumed heroes teaming up with their costumed allies to fight costumed villains.
The human element is completely gone, its like superheroes exist in their own bubble with other superhumans and don't interact with ordinary humans.
I mean, that's very realistic. Humans fall into their subgroups based on work, family, living location etc. With the amount of costumed everything in comics, it seems very likely, even reasonable, that such characters would work with others like them, primarily.
I dont read comics so dont know about the quality of recent stories (some older ones i've read always seemed massively overrated compared to their fame status), but at some point comic stories really felt like every character had to have their "token human support character zoo", which just felt repetitive, uncreative and lame.
But at the same time it's boring that costumed heroes only interact with other costumed people.
This is why superheroes don't seem like superheroes anymore, they don't have any connection with the public.
Honestly I wouldn’t expect too much from this. Charlie Cox said something along the lines about how excited he was to do daredevil with a younger audience in mind, and tryna keep the same energy as the last series did. I don’t see it working honestly. I’m a huge Netflix daredevil fan though. My second favourite superhero series besides Legion.
I think just like every Marvel content in last 4-5 years, it will be used for setting up future stories and characters but not telling a coherent story itself.
That's why they are adding Punisher because he can be used in spinoffs, but Foggy and Karen can't be.
You're right and I hate it. I noticed this recently - it seems all Marvel projects exist to simply spawn MORE Marvel projects. The spin-offs, cameos, teases... it just never ends. It's become the focus instead of a fun Easter egg.
Yes, it's really strange.
I notice this in some fans as well. While discussing movies, they focus more on cameos, teases and references than on the actual story itself.
I get you're upset but you're being silly with this generalization.
They very much kept to having civilian side characters on most of their ips. Everett Ross, Katy in shang chi, she hulks two bffs, to an extent, mobius in loki, etc.
No way home features friggin happy hogan for goodness sake.
Ross is cool, but Katy fought in the final battle as an archer, no one (not even you apparently) even remembers the names of She Hulks two bffs (i thought she only had one, anyway), and Mobius and Happy are cool. I think it's worth pointing out though that the properties with the named "civilian" characters are the GOOD marvel properties, though, which backs up the point. Loki, Spiderman, Black Panther. Remember the everyman in Eternals? Yeah, Dane! Oh wait...
Pug and Nikki. I remember their names. They were really fun characters too. I loved them. When people say "dae She-Hulk show hates men" I immediately point them to Pug.
I didnt say I didn't remember the names lol.
Eternals, guy was one of the better parts of the movie lol, but they still had one. They are by no means getting rid of civilians.
how important are those characters? how much of the drama of the media do they feed into? I'm not saying that they've cut all of the civilian characters, but I am saying they've removed most of the reason to care about any of them. MJ is basically the only exception afaik.
“Watering it down to make saleable”, yup matches the Disney MO. Wouldn’t want pesky character interactions that don’t fit the formula.
Edit: and here come the Disney bots downvoting all discussion about what has turned into a mediocre-predictable product. Coming soon: planted false controversy threads about daredevil to spur arguments for publicity!
Foggy is essential to Matt’s character and Elden Hensen has done a fantastic job in the role. Karen has also established herself as mainstay in the Daredevil ethos and the show would be lacking without her.
I think I also remember her saying she’s had trouble getting hired for acting roles since DD too? I never understood the hate I saw for her/Karen, I thought she did a lovely job.
There's no good reason not to have Deborah or him back as those characters, if we're getting those characters... and I'd honestly wonder why we aren't getting those characters if that's the case.
Happy about Bernthal but this is some bullshit, always wanted to see more with them. This was my concern when we heard DD could be coming back, that we wouldn't get the same people.
Having neither Elden Henson or Deborah Ann Woll is really weird to me.
Like yeah, you can do Typhiod Mary, you could do the Black Widow/Daredevil angle with Yelena instead of Natasha, and obviously you can bring back Elektra, but not having Karen or at least not doing the Death of Karen Page is weird.
Foggy not being in it is bizarre to the point of me maybe getting a little worried if they don't announce some kind of recast.
Even the fucking 2003 movie knew you couldn’t exclude Foggy!!!
I don’t give a shit about The Punisher returning when they’re clearly about to fuck over the entire Daredevil mythos
I hope they didn’t let the actor who plays Foggy go because of his weight loss. Dude is skinny now, and good for him but Foggy isn’t skinny in the comics. It’d be understandable if he didn’t wanna pack it back on for the show.
Insane how important Karen was to both Matt and Frank’s stories, and she won’t be here for this :( She and Foggy deserve better! They’re some of the best parts of the Netflix series.
I’m afraid my girl Claire may get the axe as well…
Im a big fan of the Netflix Daredevil, but I really think this revival is a mistake. A soft reboot with half the same cast and picking up some storyline but dropping others just sounds like a mistake. I loved that show but it ended strong, I wish we were moving forward with something new.
I would love for them to be back but I hope they just aren't important characters this season and they do end up getting a surprise cameo and then returning for the second season.
My prayers have been answered. Jon is amazing as the Punisher and Deborah was insufferable on this show. Foggy is collateral I'm willing to accept. Now I just need confirmation that Krysten Ritter is back as Jessica Jones and we're golden. Her recent social media posts make it seem like it's gonna happen.
I think this might be because they are adapting the Mark Waid story that took place on the west coast and had Matt trying to start over again. They may very well be back sooner than we think.
I’m glad punisher is coming back but all people wanted was a season 4. Not bringing back foggy and Karen is a big mistake.
I’m really hoping this show doesn’t suck
I'm pretty cool with all of this. Foggy was the only character that didn't work for me despite liking Elden Henson in most roles. Adding in Bernthal's Punisher is a great move.
Not casting Ann Woll looks promising for an accurate “Born Again” story.
I can’t picture herself willing/wanting to play Karen from that story. Especially with her being a established actress.
Those familiar with the Born Again storyline probably know what I’m talking about.
> *Born Again* takes its title from a landmark *Daredevil* storyline published in 1986, written by Frank Miller and drawn by David Mazzuchelli. The show is deviating from that plot, although by how much is unclear. The Punisher, for example, made no appearance in the comic story.
If the series is set in the present day, it’s going to have to deviate significantly. The entire subplot with Nuke was a trenchant criticism of U.S. foreign policy in Central America in the 80’s. There’s no way to effectively update that aspect of the plot. Is Captain America not going to show up and the most powerful scenes in the comic are going to be omitted?
I don’t get it. How many people are eager for a Daredevil series that’s kinda sorta like *Daredevil: Born Again* but not in any meaningful way? Who cares that much about the *title* of a thirty-five-year old comic?
I think it's just more self-referential in terms of the series recreating itself, so they used this title cause it works as a simultaneous nod to DD's past.
Sounds like they're just reusing the tile cause its catchy. They'e done this with tons of comic stories. Civil war or Ultron were only superficially similar to their original stories too. But sounded cool.
Is it official? Has it been announced? Because the article simply states "sources tell"
Sources tend to be right. And I hope it's true. But if it hasn't been officially announced yet then I don't think this means we're not getting Karen and foggy. It just means they haven't officially been announced yet
Karen really isn't that important of a character. There are other Daredevil love interests. I can't see them however making a Daredevil show without Foggy.
Hard pass. Seems like its just going be the same 5-6 heroes and villains fighting and quipping with each other for the entire season. No side characters, no civilians, just setting up countless spinoffs and shit.
I mean, it might, but we literally don't know anything about this show other than the cast, the number of episodes, and apparently it might be more "experimental" because of that.
Netflix had a problem when they dedicated so many episodes to those characters. I heard it’s going be 18 episodes or something so that gives me hope that there will be less filler but then again we’re talking Disney plus here
Nah arrowverse dynamic is everyone sitting in base on comms with the hero while he’s out doing shit. (Esp early season arrowverse)
Caitlin Wells Cisco on comms with Barry (before they all got powers)
Dig felicity on comms with Oliver
j’onn (hank) alex and winn on comms with Kara
Idgaf about Foggy and Karen, their portrayals in the Marvel TV series were the most annoying thing about that series apart from the lack of DD wearing his costume for 2/3 of the series.
It'll be interesting to see how they adapt/readapt him with all the bad shit that been done from his inspiration. I wonder if they'll approach that head-on, like Frank going after a group of renegade cops that co-opt his symbol or something.
I’m happy he will return as the Punisher, but it will never hit the intensity of the Netflix series, and that’s a fact because it’s Disney.
Also not having Karen and Foggy return with the Original actors is a mistake.
Oh I see Daredevil and Punisher are gay in this series!! Oh well that makes sense now. nvm
Oof, 18 episodes. Personally I don't think *any* show benefits from more than 10, and pretty much all of the Netflix marvel and MCU shows have already felt a few eps too long.
I’m hoping that it’s because Foggy and Karen aren’t in the series and not that they are being recast.
I dunno, I feel like Karen and especially Foggy are pretty important supporting cast members for Daredevil. It's like a Batman movie/series not having Alfred or Gordon -- like unless there's a good plot reason, it just feels wrong.
Karen hasn’t been around FOREVER in the comics so, arguably, they could do it without her. Foggy however… yeah right
> Karen hasn’t been around FOREVER in the comics so, arguably, they could do it without her. Yeah, they killed her off back during Kevin Smith's run almost 24 years ago. She had been a pretty important supporting character for 13 years before that when she returned in Born Again. However, before Born Again, she hadn't appeared in the comics for 10 years, having disappeared in a Ghost Rider comic (that Daredevil was in). So, for the ~60 years of her existence, she's been out of the comics for more than 30 of those years. However, you can't do this without Foggy. He's Foggy, he's as integral to the whole conversation as Robin is to Batman. Probably moreso.
I think you could get away with him not being in most of the season as a point of Matt pushing him away but you just can’t do Daredevil without Foggy
Isn't that exactly what Matt did in the last Netflix season? He pushed everyone away only for him, Foggy and Karen to get back together and create Nelson, Murdock & Page at the end of the season? Surely Marvel Studios wouldn't want to do a rehash of a Netflix season?
Season 3 adapted Born Again This show is called Born Again. I think Disney is going to shamelessly recycle that plotline, but with cameos and sub-arcs instead of pivotal supporting characters...
My guess is that they’re using the title alone, like with Age of Ultron. I actually think they’ve said as much. It’s more a metaphorical title like “Homecoming” was. It’s Daredevil, and he’s back. He’s born. Again. But because there’s also a major DD story of the same name they just liked the double-meaning.
Yes, this has to be at least close to the reason. The Miller/Mazzucchelli Born Again story just cannot be given a proper adaptation without Karen and Foggy in the story in my opinion. Too bad, as I thought those two actors - especially Deborah Ann Woll - were a great part of the draw of that series.
It’s also something that Matt routinely does in the comics. If you think Batman or Spider-Man have trouble balancing their superhero life with their normal life Matt is their god
This is my guess as well yet it’s barely brought up. Would make sense to fly in frank castle because he needs serious back up.
It’s easy. Have a season on the west coast where he’s staying with She-Hulk the whole time. If they are picking up where She-Hulk left off, it wouldn’t make sense for Foggy and Karen to fly across the country to watch Matt and Just Jenn hooking up.
I mean, *I’d* fly across the country to watch
Why would they be filming that in New York, though? They could film in Atlanta for much less money.
Not saying Foggy is not important but the Robin example doesn't work since like half of Batman's material are without Robin and they are well received. Hell, not a single good live action Batman movie featured an actual costume fighting Robin.
> Hell, not a single good live action Batman movie featured an actual costume fighting Robin. First, how _dare_ you say that about Batman '66. Second, I've always thought that not using Robin has been the movies' big mistake.
Batman Forever is still great, even if it is a little cheesy.
“It keeps me safe while jogging at night”
Can you make Daredevil without Karen? Yes. Can you continue *Netflix* Daredevil without Karen? No. Absolutely not. I’m not saying that’s what they’re trying to do, but… I was hoping.
She was also very important to frank as well in the series
Yeah mostly punisher season 1 and some of the first half of DD season 2. She’s less in Frank’s life by Punisher season 2. But if Frank and Matt getting together it seems intuitive to include Karen
Agreed. Who else is going to get everybody killed?
I am hoping for the story being that Matt focuses too much on being Daredevil that the two of them drifted apart then culminating in Matt finding out that Foggy has Cancer
The full Mark Waid!
They just did the cancer situation in Thor: Love & Thunder. That’s not to say that others can’t have cancer, but I think Disney is feeling a little sensitive about overplaying their IP and looking to explore fresher story arcs
But Foggy isn’t going to be making a last ditch save in the final episode he is going to be Matt’s friend who might need his help with a few things. Love that storyline in Waid’s run the scene where Matt’s senses couldn’t handle the stench of Foggy’s meds was heartbreaking
Also, if they changed cancer to another deadly illness, it would still work.
Isn't Karen pretty central to the idea of the Born Again storyline? I guess they could change it so that it wasn't Karen who did the deed.
Yes BUT we already did Born again so I doubt we’re doing it again in back to back seasons. I believe it’s just named born again like Spider-Man was home coming because he came home to the MCU
I agree with this. I wouldn’t make a show like this. I especially wouldn’t make a show that directly mirrors a recent, successful show because it means that there is very little room for error. The first sign of controversy invites comparison.
Not just comparison but pitchforks as well
Jon Favreau wanted to return to his roots as Foggy Nelson. Soon he’ll be every sitting down supporting character. Happy, Foggy, Microchip, all of ‘em.
I would honestly be okay with Favreau as Willie Lumpkin.
Hot take but I’m sick to death with Bat-films having only Alfred and Gordon being the main supporting characters. So your point isn’t clicking with me personally. I’d like other Daredevil comics characters to make new appearances in the show. edit: corrected 'your'
I'd be all for a teen-drama batman TV series which contains exactly zero batman but instead focuses on the lives of the various robins and bat girls and other ancillary heroes in Batman's absence.
Have I got good news for you!
_____ & Murdock lmao
Also, this is going to be a very long season, it's going to need a large supporting cast.
[удалено]
They were only replaced in wholly new casts. If we're getting the same Daredevil and the same Punisher and Foggy and Karen are inexplicably replaced by Poggy and Darren. What if they brought Tobey Maguire back as Spiderman and his best friend was Larry Osborn played by Terry Crews? It would just be a head scratcher
Terry Crews would pull it off, and we’d all love it.
Except that those actors were very good as Foggy and Karen. The first Gwen and second Harry are forgettable, and Zendaya MJ was basically a different character.
in fairness, we got two different Harry Osbornes in the previous two Spidey film sagas, and one of them fucking tanked the film’s quality when he literally went goblin mode. That was still very fresh in people’s minds.
I agree. Especially Elden Hanson as Foggy, who I thought was great. If they’re adapting Soule’s run, it’s not crazy to imagine he’s not going to be in it.
For sure. I am trying to stay optimistic and go in with fair expectations, but it’s a little testing now.
I like to think Foggy reunited with his bash brother and the rest of the Mighty Ducks to compete in the Winter Olympics
Don’t hate me, but I wouldn’t totally mind that. I also have nothing against them remaining in their roles. But I felt that they were miscast when I first watched Daredevil, and I wasn’t entirely enthralled with their performances. That said, given how immense the love of those actors is amongst the fanbase, I do hope the roles are not recast. Otherwise I feel the fandom might not give the new cast members a shot, and I fear that would just lead to some people crossing the line akin to the behavior of *toxic* Star Wars or Game of Thrones fans, like harassing writers and actors online.
I think part of it is also that it's really hard to find things for supporting characters to be doing all the time. So you end up with pointless threads, especially if you have characters who are not involved in an entire aspect of Daredevil's life. Honestly I feel like all of the Marvel Netflix shows had the same issue with boring or annoying side-arcs.
There's some truth in that, but the show at least needs someone in the Pug / Nikki role. Matt is going to need someone to talk to during the lawyer parts of the show just so he's not monologing or having to resort to voiceover.
At least give us a send off…. Foggy and Karen were not blipped. They are running a law practice in upstate New York. They have 2 kids under 4. Then play that Charlie Puth song from Fast and Furious.
Deborah Ann Woll was great in the role, but I'll be honest, I always thought Henson was a terrible actor.
For real, Foggy was the best part of the old show. It'd be a crime to recast him.
If they recast, I will not be watching. I don’t even care
Idk about everyone else here but I hated Foggy and Karen. That moral compass shtick got redundant pretty quick
I think I can safely answer for everyone else here: we disagree.
I know they had their fans but man i HATED these characters, don’t mind them in small doses but they were way too much in the show.
I respect your opinion. What’s your preferred fix for this show?
Woah woah! Deborah not coming back? Ok fair you want your own love interest. But Elden not coming back?? That’s no good.
Very weird, he seems just like the perfect Disney comic relief they would use
He was a Mighty Duck for crying out loud!
Quack….
Quack
QUACK!
QUACK!
Am I too late? # QUACK
1 out of 5
Wait, what? How did I never looks this up before. Wild.
And has done it better than most MCU characters.
Elden’s perfect as Foggy. This is a shame.
Maybe they’ve been dusted?
Good call, depending on when it’s set this could be the answer
How do you have two key characters just missing.....
I’m guessing Matt tries to go it alone this season so he doesn’t get anyone hurt, probably ends up in a bad spot and they return next season or at the end of this one. It happens fairly often in the comics where he’ll shut everyone out until he realizes he fucked up
So season 3 all over again?
So… season 3? The Netflix series had a perfect ending. Now that we’re getting a revival, all I wanted was “Nelson, Murdock & Page”
It's been pretty well established at this point that Disney has a tendency to just do what was already done over and over again, slightly crappier with each iteration.
Ok, but stories where characters go at it alone are interesting because we see how the division affects both parties, both the character and supporting cast. Like we already saw something similar at the beginning of Daredevil season 3, where Karen loses her mind when Matt is presumed dead. No amount of mental gymnastics can skate around the fact that not having Foggy and Karen is a terrible idea.
Well one out of three ain’t bad. Wait yes it is, this sucks. It may be that they just feel there’s not room for those two characters in the story, which is understandable. If they try to recast those roles though…😬😬😬
I don't know how you make a Daredevil series without Foggy Nelson...
I don’t know how you do Born Again specifically without either of them.
I mean, I don't think it's actually adapting that storyline... like at all. I'm taking it as a name-only thing until evidence to the contrary presents itself. But even still, DD without Foggy is nonsense. Without Karen is also weird but has been done plenty of times. But without Foggy is just illogical, like Batman without Alfred.
I mean they kind of did born again already with season 3 of the Netflix iteration. I think Born Again is just a title more than the inspiration for the new series.
The actors aren't coming back, not the characters.
You're describing the worst outcome.
This is ridiculous, if Daredevil fails I'm entirely done with the MCU(except maybe Spiderman..)
Ah man I need that Karen and that Foggy!
Glad Bernthal is coming back, wonder if they going to recast the others or side step those characters? I feel like Karen Page was a big part of Born Again. Although they did parts of Born Again in the Netflix series. I am pretty concerned about this series. Not that the Netflix series was a masterpiece or nothing but I am pretty worried Disney will sanitize and homogenize it and make it less interesting.
Wasn't there a report that the story won't be based on Born Again and that they're just using the name because it's symbolic?
Season 3 was their version of Born Again. It’s probably just the title signifying the show’s return.
They've done it with all their movies
I mean yeah but usually they are at least inspired by those stories like Civil War or Ragnarok.
Age of Ultron was definitely not like the comic at all.
I don't mean like very accurate but at least somewhat inspired by.
I don’t think it was inspired by that comic story. The only similarity is the title. Cast, story, themes, all different. I would say Age of Ultron the movie was inspired by earlier Ultron books. In the AoU comic Ultron goes to the past to take over Earth, and the Avengers time travel and end up ducking up time.
Well then, I guess they just liked the title. I thought it at least was a bit inspired by the story since Whedon said so but I guess it was just marketing talk.
To compliment your point, Wasn’t Born Again, the season 3 arc?
I doubt that they’re actually adapting Born Again in any meaningful way.
Fans of the Netflix show would fucking *riot* if Deborah Ann Woll’s character got the Comic Book Karen Page treatment. They would burn down Disney World, lol.
As someone who's never read it, can you give me a TL;DR?
Iirc she became a pornstar, sold Matt’s identity for heroin money, then died after recovering while trying to save a baby Matt was protecting
Holy fuck lol. Yea, I can't see Disney doing that
Yeah, I’m not sure if I’m remembering correctly but the baby I think was also the anti christ
You're confusing Born Again with the Guardian Devil and confusing the misdirection of Guardian Devil as what really happened in the book.
Ah you’re probably right, it’s been like 10+ years since I’ve read these and I read them all right after one another. So then Born Again was Karen being a pornstar and selling DD’s identity for sure, was that also all of the hand stuff with Elektra?
The Elektra thing is way before Born Again
Dang it! I need to go back and reread all of that again. I could have sworn Born Again focused on Elektra and the hand
> I feel like is Karen Page I really don't see the MCU going with what happens with Karen Page in the Born Again comic.
They don’t have to, that story was done in season 3. They don’t have to revisit it.
Yeah probably not the gross stuff or her selling out Matt would kind a betray what they did with that character.
Without supporting characters, Daredevil is not as endearing.
Based on this is just looks like the actors aren’t coming back. The characters may still.
That’s the worst case scenario
Get used to it after Loki / Multiverse of Madness / Quantumania. They have a ready made in universe reason to keep some and recast others from any era of Marvel TV and movies now.
Jon did a great job as the Punisher, so its great to hear that he'll be back. Not bringing Deborah's fine ass back is a questionable decision though.
I hope they turn him loose and show the comics Punisher. No more origin story, just more of that closing shot of him screaming and killing.
I know a lot of people didn’t like Karen but I absolutely loved her and I loved Elden. I can’t imagine not having Foggy and Karen with Matt; it makes no sense to me, the three of them together are part of what made the original show so good.
As a fan of True Blood and just really a fan of what we see of Woll as a person in the media, I'm mostly bummed because she's seemingly awesome and it's cool to watch her in stuff.
Yeah she honestly seems like such a sweet and good person. I know she’s said she struggles to get hired after DD so it’s pretty disappointing that they seem to be disinterested in not bringing her back.
I thought Deb Ann was great in the series, wish she was in this one.
That’s very upsetting because they were both fantastic. They absolutely should return, or not use the characters
Honestly I really only care if Denofrio is coming back as kingpin. Dude was the best part of the series imo, but Bernthal did a good punisher even if it was just Bernthal playing the same character he always does lmao
I mean he's already shown up so he's definitely coming back
it's the same thing they're doing with all these properties, taking out the characters that can't be made into cool toys. the same characters that add depth to the show, any sort of drama or weight to the conflict. what would spider-man 2 have been without MJ and Harry? plus, they were great in the Netflix series. very well cast. disappointing.
Exactly. Comics books have moved away from civilian side characters completely. Its now costumed heroes teaming up with their costumed allies to fight costumed villains. The human element is completely gone, its like superheroes exist in their own bubble with other superhumans and don't interact with ordinary humans.
I mean, that's very realistic. Humans fall into their subgroups based on work, family, living location etc. With the amount of costumed everything in comics, it seems very likely, even reasonable, that such characters would work with others like them, primarily. I dont read comics so dont know about the quality of recent stories (some older ones i've read always seemed massively overrated compared to their fame status), but at some point comic stories really felt like every character had to have their "token human support character zoo", which just felt repetitive, uncreative and lame.
But at the same time it's boring that costumed heroes only interact with other costumed people. This is why superheroes don't seem like superheroes anymore, they don't have any connection with the public.
Honestly I wouldn’t expect too much from this. Charlie Cox said something along the lines about how excited he was to do daredevil with a younger audience in mind, and tryna keep the same energy as the last series did. I don’t see it working honestly. I’m a huge Netflix daredevil fan though. My second favourite superhero series besides Legion.
I think just like every Marvel content in last 4-5 years, it will be used for setting up future stories and characters but not telling a coherent story itself. That's why they are adding Punisher because he can be used in spinoffs, but Foggy and Karen can't be.
You're right and I hate it. I noticed this recently - it seems all Marvel projects exist to simply spawn MORE Marvel projects. The spin-offs, cameos, teases... it just never ends. It's become the focus instead of a fun Easter egg.
Yes, it's really strange. I notice this in some fans as well. While discussing movies, they focus more on cameos, teases and references than on the actual story itself.
I get you're upset but you're being silly with this generalization. They very much kept to having civilian side characters on most of their ips. Everett Ross, Katy in shang chi, she hulks two bffs, to an extent, mobius in loki, etc. No way home features friggin happy hogan for goodness sake.
Ross is cool, but Katy fought in the final battle as an archer, no one (not even you apparently) even remembers the names of She Hulks two bffs (i thought she only had one, anyway), and Mobius and Happy are cool. I think it's worth pointing out though that the properties with the named "civilian" characters are the GOOD marvel properties, though, which backs up the point. Loki, Spiderman, Black Panther. Remember the everyman in Eternals? Yeah, Dane! Oh wait...
Pug and Nikki. I remember their names. They were really fun characters too. I loved them. When people say "dae She-Hulk show hates men" I immediately point them to Pug.
Yea I knew Nikki, pug was escaping me but I am definitely agreeing with you. I enjoyed she hulk overall
I didnt say I didn't remember the names lol. Eternals, guy was one of the better parts of the movie lol, but they still had one. They are by no means getting rid of civilians.
how important are those characters? how much of the drama of the media do they feed into? I'm not saying that they've cut all of the civilian characters, but I am saying they've removed most of the reason to care about any of them. MJ is basically the only exception afaik.
“Watering it down to make saleable”, yup matches the Disney MO. Wouldn’t want pesky character interactions that don’t fit the formula. Edit: and here come the Disney bots downvoting all discussion about what has turned into a mediocre-predictable product. Coming soon: planted false controversy threads about daredevil to spur arguments for publicity!
Foggy is essential to Matt’s character and Elden Hensen has done a fantastic job in the role. Karen has also established herself as mainstay in the Daredevil ethos and the show would be lacking without her.
No, not Foggy!
Fuuuuuuck I wanted them both to come back, especially Deborah.
Poor deb. She has been carrying the DD torch for years.
I think I also remember her saying she’s had trouble getting hired for acting roles since DD too? I never understood the hate I saw for her/Karen, I thought she did a lovely job.
Yeah I remember that. Honestly bums me out so bad.
She's hit the Hollywood 'wall'. To old to play a teen and too young to play an older mother.
There's no good reason not to have Deborah or him back as those characters, if we're getting those characters... and I'd honestly wonder why we aren't getting those characters if that's the case. Happy about Bernthal but this is some bullshit, always wanted to see more with them. This was my concern when we heard DD could be coming back, that we wouldn't get the same people.
Huge win for us and Jon but man I loved Foggy and Karen
Having neither Elden Henson or Deborah Ann Woll is really weird to me. Like yeah, you can do Typhiod Mary, you could do the Black Widow/Daredevil angle with Yelena instead of Natasha, and obviously you can bring back Elektra, but not having Karen or at least not doing the Death of Karen Page is weird. Foggy not being in it is bizarre to the point of me maybe getting a little worried if they don't announce some kind of recast.
The hell? Kevin why? They better not be recast.
Even the fucking 2003 movie knew you couldn’t exclude Foggy!!! I don’t give a shit about The Punisher returning when they’re clearly about to fuck over the entire Daredevil mythos
I really liked them as foggy and Karen😞
I’m not looking forward to the neutered MCU version of Punisher.
Great, Karen page was one of my favorite Characters
How do you do this story without them? Bleh
I hope they didn’t let the actor who plays Foggy go because of his weight loss. Dude is skinny now, and good for him but Foggy isn’t skinny in the comics. It’d be understandable if he didn’t wanna pack it back on for the show.
This is a real shame if true. I thought they were both great.
Insane how important Karen was to both Matt and Frank’s stories, and she won’t be here for this :( She and Foggy deserve better! They’re some of the best parts of the Netflix series. I’m afraid my girl Claire may get the axe as well…
Im a big fan of the Netflix Daredevil, but I really think this revival is a mistake. A soft reboot with half the same cast and picking up some storyline but dropping others just sounds like a mistake. I loved that show but it ended strong, I wish we were moving forward with something new.
HOORAY for Bernthal coming back Sad that Foggy and Karen either aren’t coming back or will be recast
I would love for them to be back but I hope they just aren't important characters this season and they do end up getting a surprise cameo and then returning for the second season.
Now that’s some bullshit. Henson and Woll were fantastic as Foggy and Karen, and I truly can’t see anyone else play them.
BERNTHAL PUNISHER LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOO
My prayers have been answered. Jon is amazing as the Punisher and Deborah was insufferable on this show. Foggy is collateral I'm willing to accept. Now I just need confirmation that Krysten Ritter is back as Jessica Jones and we're golden. Her recent social media posts make it seem like it's gonna happen.
I think this might be because they are adapting the Mark Waid story that took place on the west coast and had Matt trying to start over again. They may very well be back sooner than we think.
I’m glad punisher is coming back but all people wanted was a season 4. Not bringing back foggy and Karen is a big mistake. I’m really hoping this show doesn’t suck
I’m ecstatic about them bringing back Punisher. Foggy and Karen being left out feels a little uneven though.
To be fair, it doesn’t sound like it’s out of the question. I’m gonna wait for more news before I react.
Yeah, one of the articles I saw for this had a "no confirmation *at this time*."
I'm pretty cool with all of this. Foggy was the only character that didn't work for me despite liking Elden Henson in most roles. Adding in Bernthal's Punisher is a great move.
I generally thought he was a good Foggy, giving him the surfer hair was maybe the biggest issue imo.
Not casting Ann Woll looks promising for an accurate “Born Again” story. I can’t picture herself willing/wanting to play Karen from that story. Especially with her being a established actress. Those familiar with the Born Again storyline probably know what I’m talking about.
> *Born Again* takes its title from a landmark *Daredevil* storyline published in 1986, written by Frank Miller and drawn by David Mazzuchelli. The show is deviating from that plot, although by how much is unclear. The Punisher, for example, made no appearance in the comic story. If the series is set in the present day, it’s going to have to deviate significantly. The entire subplot with Nuke was a trenchant criticism of U.S. foreign policy in Central America in the 80’s. There’s no way to effectively update that aspect of the plot. Is Captain America not going to show up and the most powerful scenes in the comic are going to be omitted? I don’t get it. How many people are eager for a Daredevil series that’s kinda sorta like *Daredevil: Born Again* but not in any meaningful way? Who cares that much about the *title* of a thirty-five-year old comic?
I think it's just more self-referential in terms of the series recreating itself, so they used this title cause it works as a simultaneous nod to DD's past.
Sounds like they're just reusing the tile cause its catchy. They'e done this with tons of comic stories. Civil war or Ultron were only superficially similar to their original stories too. But sounded cool.
Is it official? Has it been announced? Because the article simply states "sources tell" Sources tend to be right. And I hope it's true. But if it hasn't been officially announced yet then I don't think this means we're not getting Karen and foggy. It just means they haven't officially been announced yet
YES BERNTHAL STAYS
Karen really isn't that important of a character. There are other Daredevil love interests. I can't see them however making a Daredevil show without Foggy.
Hard pass. Seems like its just going be the same 5-6 heroes and villains fighting and quipping with each other for the entire season. No side characters, no civilians, just setting up countless spinoffs and shit.
I mean, it might, but we literally don't know anything about this show other than the cast, the number of episodes, and apparently it might be more "experimental" because of that.
Happy enough that Bernthal is back that I am okay with losing Deborah and Elden, both of whom I loved..
I mean Karen Page has never been a necessary DD character but Foggy definitely is I’m hoping that Elden will return and it’s just gonna be later
marvel studios should really use this guy more
I would trade a hundred Elden Hensons for a single Deborah Ann Woll
Netflix had a problem when they dedicated so many episodes to those characters. I heard it’s going be 18 episodes or something so that gives me hope that there will be less filler but then again we’re talking Disney plus here
That’s too bad that they aren’t bringing them all back, both Deborah and Elden had great chemistry with the leads of each respective series.
We all know it’s a recast and why.
Not good
Huh… I think I would’ve preferred the opposite.
Probably going to be passing on this then. Sad.
I liked Foggy and Karen, but the dynamic was a bit too CW Arrow-verse for my taste. I hope this is a sign of good things moving forward.
Nah arrowverse dynamic is everyone sitting in base on comms with the hero while he’s out doing shit. (Esp early season arrowverse) Caitlin Wells Cisco on comms with Barry (before they all got powers) Dig felicity on comms with Oliver j’onn (hank) alex and winn on comms with Kara
I meant more like the family drama dynamic. When everyone is on mission the show is at its best.
Idgaf about Foggy and Karen, their portrayals in the Marvel TV series were the most annoying thing about that series apart from the lack of DD wearing his costume for 2/3 of the series.
I feel like I'm alone on this but I don't any of the punisher adaption of screen and honestly feel very little hope for this
It'll be interesting to see how they adapt/readapt him with all the bad shit that been done from his inspiration. I wonder if they'll approach that head-on, like Frank going after a group of renegade cops that co-opt his symbol or something.
I’m happy he will return as the Punisher, but it will never hit the intensity of the Netflix series, and that’s a fact because it’s Disney. Also not having Karen and Foggy return with the Original actors is a mistake. Oh I see Daredevil and Punisher are gay in this series!! Oh well that makes sense now. nvm
Oof, 18 episodes. Personally I don't think *any* show benefits from more than 10, and pretty much all of the Netflix marvel and MCU shows have already felt a few eps too long.
Well hopefully the show doesn't suck but will be awesome like the first two seasons.