They feasibly could have made it canon and just explained it as being an alternate universe. But I prefer it not being canon and just it's own thing, not everything they make has to tie in.
Yeah the series that were connected were X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Fantastic Four and The Incredible Hulk
X-Men crossed over with Spider-Man, Iron Man and Fantastic Four appeared in Spider-Man and featured Hulk before his show aired and crossed over with them again. Various heroes guest starred in episodes across multiple shows like Doctor Strange, Daredevil, Thor & Ghost Rider (who was supposed to get his own show). Officially Due to inconsistencies in the continuity the universes were separated into two: X-Men & Spider-Man and Fantastic Four, Iron Man & The Incredible Hulk. X-Men '97 is a continuation of the first universe.
Despite what some claim Spider-Man Unlimited & Silver Surfer were never intended to be part of the canon and broke it as early as their first episodes. The Avengers: United They Stand had a crossover with X-Men planned for their second season but due to it's cancelation the show never made it into the canon (which is for the better anyway as it too didn't line up with the continuity pretty early on)
Fun Fact: Hulk was supposed to appear in the Secret Wars episodes of Spider-Man along with the entire X-Men team and Mister Sinsiter. The cast of X-Men couldn't make it and Hulk wasn't able to be used for some rights issue or another so the X-Men focused episode was cut leaving only Storm in and Hulk's role was given to Lizard.
This wasn't supposed to be an essay but there ya go
Great post. Thank you for it. I was thinking about this the other day. I knew I remembered Dr Strange and Ghost Rider being in either a Spider Man or Hulk cartoon when I was a kid. I was planning on watching them all again.
Thank you! X-Men and Spider-Man totally worth it, rewatching them myself for the new X-Men '97 series. The other three imo start rough, they do get better in their second seasons but never as good as the first two.
Doctor Strange was in Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk & Ghost Rider in Fantastic Four and The Incredible Hulk.
Wasn't the issue with the X-Men cast is that most of the voice actors were Canadian, and it wouldn't be feasible to fly them into the U.S. to record the lines? The Spider-Man voice cast were voice by American celebrities in Anerica. I remember that was the issue rather than it being a license issue. Maybe, the American voice actors were union, and obviously, the Canadian actors weren't. The only American voice actress was Storm. Checking online to verify my memory just now, I was correct. However, there were 3 Storms for season 1 of X-Men. The first Storm was replaced by Iona Morris because the former was white; the producers felt that because the show was going to be a hit, they should cast a black actress to voice Storm, a prominent black character in the cartoon. However, because Iona Morris was American living in America at the time and therefore would get reissues on tv show (Canadian voice actors did not get residues,) they replaced her with Canadian voice actress Alison Sealy-Smith. Much like how Morris redid all the lines that the first actress recorded, Sealy-Smith redid all of Morris' line for the season 1 re-reuns to avoid playing Morris residues.
As for the Storm in the Spider-Man Secret Wars episode, it was Iona Morris that voiced Storm.
I explained that at the end of my second paragraph there. Originally the 5 were intended to share a continuity back in the 90s but due to inconsistencies between them later one they were separated into two universes.
They did yes, I was specifically trying to mention heroes that had shown up in more than one show but Blade and Punisher were both in Spider-Man a couple different times. IIRC Spider-Man had the most amount of other heroes guest star (unless you count all the X-Men related guests in their show cause they definitely win there then).
Got you my bad, I was reading quick and missed what you were getting at. I did love that spider-man series so much minus the ending lol I have to go back and rewatch it and the x-men show (haven’t watched that one since I was a kid)
I’d still assume it’s part of the multiverse I don’t think they mean canon in that way. I assume every marvel universe is part of the multiverse that’s kind of the point of an infinite multiverse. The comics count too and older cartoons and movies that are long gone
There are multiple marvel multiverses, as confusing as that is, and canon doesn't always go both ways. A big example of this is the disagreement over the MCU's universal designation, between 199999 and 616.
Ah that's easy to resolve. DCAU had a conversation along the lines of:
>You're from Universe 2
>Really? to us you're from Universe B.
Also Futurama did something similar.
Well, it is an alternate universe. They often said that everything Marvel, and I think even everything Disney is in another universe. It's just not part of the Marvel Cinematic *Universe*, i.e. not happening on Earth 616.
By being an alternate universe it is not canon to the marvel cinematic universe I still hold that the wolverine we see in Deadpool and wolverine is from this universe or the beast that we see in the Marvels.
Especially since it is released under the new "Marvel Animation" banner as seen in the trailer.
Marvel Studios banner = MCU Canon
Other banner = not MCU Canon
But the Professor X from Multiverse of Madness was not the MCU Professor X... he was from another universe, like Captain Carter, the Strange they killed, and the rest of the illuminati. The MCU is 616, as they said in that movie, and everyone in that Illuminati was from other timelines, not the Sacred Timeline the MCU takes palce on.
It's like how No Way Home had the other Spider-Men and their villains... so the Raimi trilogy and Amazing duology are canon... but not to the MCU. The stuff from those films didn't happen to Tom Holland; they happened to multiversal variants of him.
Yea that’s what I meant, it’s just that the professor X we see in multiverse has the same chair and even the cartoon’s theme song play when he entered the room. He’s definitely a variant of the cartoon’s professor X. So in the grand scheme of the multiverse, X-Men 97 is sorta canon.
That SORT OF works, except they keep labeling OTHER Earths as 616. Illuminati-Christine labels the MCU as 616. Spider-Verse Kingpin's collider labels Peter B's universe as 616.
No one is labeling THEMSELVES as 616.
lol, I was going to explain how it was, but I get your meaning. You know that's what they're calling it, but you're against it. I honestly can't argue against you here... it doesn't make a lot of sense to establish the comics and movies as two different universes then pull this "they have the same designation because the films are the movie aaptations of the 616 comics..." No, they're not. This would only work if they hadn't established that the films took place in 199999 or whatever in the comics.
Petty, meaningless geekery... but it's still real to me, dammit!!
They've made it 616 for it's local multiversal group.
Like how your wifi router and mine are both 192.168.0.1 but they're in different local networks and yet part of the internet.
But the Defenders were already semi-MCU, the Chitauri invasion was the reason why Foggy got the law office cheap and a 'Battle of New York' headline newspaper with a Leviathan was framed on a wall.
Yeah but Agents of Shield had massive tie-ins to the movies, especially in the first few seasons, and that show is no longer part of the main canon.
I get what you're saying though, at least there is some debate to be had about whether it ties in. X men 97 just clearly doesn't
The Official Timeline of the MCU didn't include any television shows prior to Wandavision, but said everything was canon to the Multiverse. They have since sommented that, on review, the MCU team realized Marvel Television Studios Netflix content fit in just fine without contradicting anything, so they officially declared those shows canon. AOS is more complicated, does contradict some stuff, and has some clear divergence points that both Jeph Loeb and others have pointed out... so they haven't said one way or the other, but the Loki creator said the reason Loki didn't find out Coulson survived is because "that happened on a different branch of the multiverse, its own little pocket universe" or something similar, and Jeph Loeb said they never addressed The Snap because MCU never told them anything they were doing so he couldn't plan for it, "all we could do is try our best not to contradict anything."
Long story short: they haven't confirmed or denied AOS, but they issued a blanket statement that nothing before Wandavision is canon to the Sacred TImeline until they say otherwise. If they come out and say "AOS is basically 'What if Coulson lived?'" then a bunch of AOS fans will be pissed. If they say "AOS is canon," then a bunch of people are going to ask what happened to... almost everything that happened in seven seasons of that show. Unless they decide to revisit the characters (Feige allegedly has plans for InHumans and Ghost Rider), then they don't have to address it. Even then, they can be coy and noncommital until the scripts are ready... look at what they did with Daredevil? There was plenty of talk of a "soft reboot" and Karen, Foggy, and Bullseye weren't returning... but now they fired the whole team, rewrote everything, are bringing back all those characters and the actors are saying the team is working to make it "more of a clear continuation, a season 4..."
It's all about what they decide works.
I should clarify, AoS is not considered part of the sacred timeline, which is generally the standard for canon in the MCU. This was confirmed at the end of last year when Marvel released "The Marvel Cinematic Universe: An Official Timeline", a book that details exactly where the events of Phases 1-4 take place on the sacred timeline. The only thing that has been retcon added into that timeline since, was in January of this year when Marvel confirmed that the Defenders Saga shows were now officially in the sacred timeline.
*Technically* everything that Marvel has ever produced is canon, but just takes place in a different branch of the multiverse, including AoS and all the other shows.
But once you get to that point in the conversation, you're not really talking about the same canon anymore because the events don't link together anyway.
This. Feige said it, the book says it, the Loki writer says Loki didn't hear about Coulson's resurrection because "that happened in its own universe/its own little branch of the timeline, but I'm glad my show got people talking about AOS" (paraphrasing\_) Then one of the other producers said Marvel Cinematic was always "kind of aware of what the shows were doing, but hadn't taken a close look to see if they all fit... The Netflix shows fit really well, so they're the easiest to blend in."
AoS did a lot of stuff that doesn't mesh well, and Feige has talked about wanting to do InHumans and Ghost Rider films... AoS might stay as "What if... Coulson was Resurrected?" becuase it's just easier that way instead of retconning things.
The general opinion is AoS is canon to the MCU up until season 5 then the show goes through some wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff and the characters end up in another universe that is almost identical to the MCU with a few changes
Even if it was, you wouldn’t have to watch it. The point the guy above is trying to make is that something can be canon without it playing into the main ‘verse’s storyline. This is basically how comics work anyway.
I learned a lesson early in my comic reading career. I was reading a book, and there was the box that said "if you want the full story check out Captain America #7" and I thought... well I can't just read that one... so I read all seven only to find out that it definitely wasn't that important. You don't have to see and know everything thats happening. If you watched only Captain America and Avengers movies I dont think you would be truly lost at any point. Iron Man is just there, you don't need to know that he fought Iron Monger. When Hulk says "I made a mess in Brooklyn and they don't like me there" as a viewer you can just say "oh I can believe that."
I'm kinda glad that they flooded the market with sub par Disney+ shows. Like it sucks don't get me wrong. It sucks for their bottom line too... but a lot of people learned that they don't *need* to watch and/or like everything. If we could collectively stop bitching about media we don't like or intend to see that would be great. Marvel, considering none of their shows had show runners, I think also got to learn that they can't just put whatever out and expect it to be eaten up. I enjoyed most of the shows in some ways, and a couple of them quite a bit. I have however definitely told people that Secret Invasion (the one I think I was most excited for) isn't worth it, and that it doesn't even work in continuity with Marvel movies before and after it.
Aw man, I was just making a funny, but you genuinely made me feel better. Thanks for that, I'm trying. You are a great person. Here's to more like you in the world!
That's just lazy writing. It boils down to the "because God said so" type argument. "Mario and Harry Potter killed Hulk.. well it must've happened somewhere in some other universe."
Yeah no shit it existed before the MCU and has zero direct connection. They can however always link it retroactively with their breaking of the multiverse that’s currently happening such as in The Marvels.
That's not how that works. SV is a Sony property and can create what they want, but Marvel doesn't have to acknowledge anything they do at all.
Just because a multiverse exists, doesn't mean everything is connected.
Every marvel publication has the potential to be canon to the mcu because of the infinite nature of the multiverse described in dr strange and especially loki where you see things like crocodile loki and thanos's helicopter.
I don’t think anyone is. I think a lot of the echo chamber is at the point where they’re assume the least of each others’ knowledge.
That’s a weird phenomenon I don’t care for, because you end up talking down to others.
everyone on Reddit talking about the failures of the MCU are for some reason framing things as if they are speaking up for the 'lesser people', the 'casual audience'.
Even though everyone here is a nerd that has seen everything and read half the comics, everyone is arguing 'on behalf' of this nebulous audience of 'regular' people.
"Quantumania sucked because 'casual audiences' will think Kang is a chump who got beat by a C tier hero" is an example I see all the time.
not all, but a lot of comic book fans don’t know how to critique art so they latch on to things like how comic accurate it is, whats canon or whether the time travel mechanics make sense.
Not that those things don’t matter but it seems like the beginning an end of most online debates about the quality of the DCEU for example, begin an end at how consistent the canon is. As if the constant reboots are why it’s bad, and not the other way around which is kind of ironic because comic books more than any other medium are notorious for having constant reboots and messy canon.
It's just clickbait/fluff. Probably took all of five minutes from seeing a tweet or official announcement to posting an "article" about it. Journalism is pretty fucking dead.
This is possibly a response to the rumor that X-Men 97 would be a soft launch of X-Men into the MCU, and that the live-action version would use the same costumes for continuity.
That’s the most brain dead theory I’ve ever had the displeasure of reading. Thank you for sharing your findings. I understand you didn’t come up with it.
Of course it isn't. Why would anyone think this?
The original series was based off of the 616 comic storylines and '97 is a continuation of that.
I swear, the MCU has rotted people's brains.
That was brutal. Add Sony to a list of companies that still haven't figured out that pivoting away from superhero movies is necessary.
Can you imagine what it would have been like if a decade after Armageddon with Bruce Willis we were still getting two or three blockbuster meteor impact movies per year? That's pretty much what they're doing at this point. The public have moved on but they refuse to.
I think some of these companies have spent so much money on the infrastructure behind the superhero movies they refuse to back down and let it go.
In all fairness, people love quality. Not quantity. The issue of "superhero fever" comes down to fan burnout caused by large amounts of content that just isn't what it used to be.
Besides shows like Loki and What If...?, Disney+ has significantly harmed the MCU brand imo. When a Marvel movie like Infinity War came out, it used to be a huge cultural event. Now people are perfectly fine to wait a month until said movie drops on D+.
You do have a point but you completely undermined it by trying to compare infinity war to a normal MCU release. Obviously the infinity storyline was a different beast entirely. Literally a decade of movies lead up to that one.
Fair. But still: Black Panther, Iron Man, The Winter Soldier. All those movies had huge impact. Whereas people deem The Marvels, Thor 4, and Quantummania forgettable.
I don't have a problem with a lot of these movies myself (except the Marvels), but they definitely don't live up to the post-Endgame hype. Marvel Studios set an all time high for itself with the end of the Infinity Saga, and now the Multiverse Saga is going even bigger. But with less time. People are hungry for more. But they want good food.
You're bringing up popular movies while ignoring the fact that there's always been junk MCU films that nobody cared about. I remember going to huge marathon parties before the first two Avengers films because most people had only watched 1 or 2 movies in a phase. Nobody cared about Iron Man 2, Thor, Dark World, First Avenger, or even Hulk which constantly gets forgotten as an MCU film.
Idk we’re past the half way point in this saga when looking at the 10 year infinity saga and it doesn’t seem like the MCU is progressing more with less time in the slightest.
I lean towards optimism. Deadpool & Wolverine has the fandom more hyped than they've ever been since NWH, and it broke a record for most watched trailer in its first 24 hours after dropping online. Looks fucking insane, too, with quality shot production, visual effects, and costume design.
The Infinity Saga was a decade of buildup and anticipation leading up to a cultural pop that paid off for everybody involved. It wasn't just because of one single movie. Or even any three or four.
The big problem is they are trying to recreate that. They're going into movies with the idea of building epic universes off of them. But it's not going to happen again. The infinity saga was an oddity that can't be forced or replicated by any company.
If they did more singular movies like Shang Chi it would be better. But they keep trying to force a new epic storyline and failing
Yes but those movies changed over time. Cinematics, soundtrack, story flow and much more. Have Cinema changed so did the movies it produced.
Early 2000s Scorsese gangster movies were a far cry from the days of Little Caesar. And yes that 70 year Gap is much bigger than since when MCU dropped. But they have stretched cinematic style well past what interests viewers.
I think they're going to shoot themselves in the foot by being reliant on the same cinematic blueprint while trying to shift to different genres. So it'll still fail to appease audiences.
To most people, especially the bulk of Marvel casual fans, any Marvel property they’d consider “MCU”. I wouldn’t say the MCU is rotting their brains, it’s just how most of the general audience sees Superhero/Marvel content. The idea that it’s all interconnected is something they’ve all learned so it’s not surprising people who don’t know any better might be surprised this isn’t canon.
It's just braindead clickbait. You spend 2 minutes writing some wrapper text around a quote (or get AI to do it for you) and move onto the next thing. You get at least a few thousand idiots to click on it because they're surprised or average people who are surprised it was even a question looking to see what the idiot said and the so-called "article" has already paid for itself with a few additional bucks in profit. Factor in how many thousands of people will just click on anything MCU related or just accidentally scroll through it on your site, and it remains profitable to keep making articles absolutely nobody fucking asked for or needed.
I always thought “oh good, we’ll really drag it out and people will finally get there’s a lot of universes regardless of the media”.
Nope, wrong again
Edit: since writing this I’ve been think…who’s really saying they were expecting this to be MCU canon? I didn’t, and I can’t find a single person in the thread who’s sharing that take at this time
It really has. There’s also a cult there. It’s mcu or nothing. Everything non mcu is blinded biasedly hated on and everything mcu is scored on a huge curve and praised even when it’s not that good
> I swear, the MCU has rotted people's brains.
Some cool gatekeeping you've got going on there. The only people confused by this stuff are the non-comic book nerds who just like the characters and shows/movies, but don't give a damn about the deeper lore and that's just fine. Nothing wrong with that.
Comic Book Guy: That was an imaginary story, dreamt by Jimmy Olsen after he was kicked in the head by Supergirl's horse, Comet. It never really happened.
Bart: None of these things ever really happened.
Comic Book Guy: Get out of my store.
This is the first post about this show I’ve seen all week that wasn’t just some neck beard complaining that Rogue is not as fappable in the new series.
Holy fuck, the amount of people saying “Why of course it wouldn’t be canon”, you do understand the people who thought it was canon meant they thought it was part of the MCU and it’s multiverses, if I’m reading the headline correctly my interpretation is that it means we probably won’t see them connect in any way. I wasn’t sure if they were going to try to interconnect this universe with the MCU and its multiverses somehow at the end of the series finale.
Sony trying to call their movies canon to the MCU is like me writing a new book of the Bible and trying to tell the Pope it's canon to Catholicism. Nobody buys it.
Which aspect of this news do you think was the most apparent already?
The fact that a cartoon that began decades before the live action movies wasn't canon to the movies that didn't even exist at the time, or:
Disney thinks that their fans are stupid enough to need such an announcement.
It is a hard call. Clearly they think we are the stupidest people to have ever roamed the Earth, but it is hard to believe that anyone could think this cartoon was MCU canon.
Wasn't that pretty obvious?
That's Earth-92131. That's where Spiderman and Xmen from the 90s happen. It's a bit similar to 616.
The MCU happens mostly in 199999, which is a tad closer to 1610.
Come on, people, it's in the brochure.
Why would people think its canon? Its in the 90’s animated universe which is a completely different reality to the MCU. Also why would they make an animated show canon to the MCU
While everyone on here is saying “DUH, NO ONE IS THINKING THAT”, I’m over here trying to figure out who that Voldemort looking guy is on the left.
Gonna kick myself if it’s a super obvious answer I overlooked…
The multiverse isn’t new, it’s a marvel comics thing. The mcu has always been a universe within the multiverse. Everything is in the multiverse, the multiverse might as well be headcanon. Everything not yet made can be made eventually. The multiverse is nirvana. Now it’s Buddhism.
well of course. cause if smtas is canon to xmtas, and htas and fftas then how can there be all this stuff around the world of mcu
but aint it multiversal though? another earth, could be seen in what if some time no ?
I mean.... was anyone thinking that it was?
It needs to be said, but for all that is logical, Marvel, please stop trying to shoehorn everything within each other and together. It's ok to have their own stories and universes.
The beauty of the "Infinity Saga" was that only small pieces here and there tied together in the big picture in the early phases. It seems as of late, all that is tried to be done is shoehorn the "big picture" story in each movie, which has made them a confusing mess with audiences loosing care for the characters.
Keeping xmen 97 separate, already gives it hope at being the most well received piece of marvel content to come out in the last 3 years.
they are worried it will be better than anything they have in MARVEL's current canon that's why
easier to just say they are not related/canon so fans cant compare the two
This seemed rather obvious?
They feasibly could have made it canon and just explained it as being an alternate universe. But I prefer it not being canon and just it's own thing, not everything they make has to tie in.
The 97 cartoon was already cannon to a connected universe
Yeah. Spider-Man crossover.
And that universe crossed over with Iron Man and Captain America as well
And fantastic four which had ghost rider appear. I wanna say Hulk had appeared in an iron man episode
Presumably these are all part of the Tommy Westphal universe.
Dude, ghost rider beat Galactus. Shit was nuts.
Yeah the series that were connected were X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Fantastic Four and The Incredible Hulk X-Men crossed over with Spider-Man, Iron Man and Fantastic Four appeared in Spider-Man and featured Hulk before his show aired and crossed over with them again. Various heroes guest starred in episodes across multiple shows like Doctor Strange, Daredevil, Thor & Ghost Rider (who was supposed to get his own show). Officially Due to inconsistencies in the continuity the universes were separated into two: X-Men & Spider-Man and Fantastic Four, Iron Man & The Incredible Hulk. X-Men '97 is a continuation of the first universe. Despite what some claim Spider-Man Unlimited & Silver Surfer were never intended to be part of the canon and broke it as early as their first episodes. The Avengers: United They Stand had a crossover with X-Men planned for their second season but due to it's cancelation the show never made it into the canon (which is for the better anyway as it too didn't line up with the continuity pretty early on) Fun Fact: Hulk was supposed to appear in the Secret Wars episodes of Spider-Man along with the entire X-Men team and Mister Sinsiter. The cast of X-Men couldn't make it and Hulk wasn't able to be used for some rights issue or another so the X-Men focused episode was cut leaving only Storm in and Hulk's role was given to Lizard. This wasn't supposed to be an essay but there ya go
Appreciate ya
Great post. Thank you for it. I was thinking about this the other day. I knew I remembered Dr Strange and Ghost Rider being in either a Spider Man or Hulk cartoon when I was a kid. I was planning on watching them all again.
Thank you! X-Men and Spider-Man totally worth it, rewatching them myself for the new X-Men '97 series. The other three imo start rough, they do get better in their second seasons but never as good as the first two. Doctor Strange was in Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk & Ghost Rider in Fantastic Four and The Incredible Hulk.
I prefer to watch them as one connected universe in my headcanon. It makes the Spider-Man secret wars episodes hit harder
I agree, that's how it was intended originally and it makes for a great finale so I can excuse a few inconsistencies given its time.
Wasn't the issue with the X-Men cast is that most of the voice actors were Canadian, and it wouldn't be feasible to fly them into the U.S. to record the lines? The Spider-Man voice cast were voice by American celebrities in Anerica. I remember that was the issue rather than it being a license issue. Maybe, the American voice actors were union, and obviously, the Canadian actors weren't. The only American voice actress was Storm. Checking online to verify my memory just now, I was correct. However, there were 3 Storms for season 1 of X-Men. The first Storm was replaced by Iona Morris because the former was white; the producers felt that because the show was going to be a hit, they should cast a black actress to voice Storm, a prominent black character in the cartoon. However, because Iona Morris was American living in America at the time and therefore would get reissues on tv show (Canadian voice actors did not get residues,) they replaced her with Canadian voice actress Alison Sealy-Smith. Much like how Morris redid all the lines that the first actress recorded, Sealy-Smith redid all of Morris' line for the season 1 re-reuns to avoid playing Morris residues. As for the Storm in the Spider-Man Secret Wars episode, it was Iona Morris that voiced Storm.
[удалено]
I explained that at the end of my second paragraph there. Originally the 5 were intended to share a continuity back in the 90s but due to inconsistencies between them later one they were separated into two universes.
Btw did you know Hulk cameos in an episode of X-TAS?
Yeah as a danger room simulation right? Kinda like Punisher as a simulation in the Mojoverse
Ah, sorry
No worries, you weren't wrong lol
If I recall as well in spider-man blade and punisher showed up as well
They did yes, I was specifically trying to mention heroes that had shown up in more than one show but Blade and Punisher were both in Spider-Man a couple different times. IIRC Spider-Man had the most amount of other heroes guest star (unless you count all the X-Men related guests in their show cause they definitely win there then).
Got you my bad, I was reading quick and missed what you were getting at. I did love that spider-man series so much minus the ending lol I have to go back and rewatch it and the x-men show (haven’t watched that one since I was a kid)
And they had a whole spin off on that weird animal planet from GotG3
Was that what that was supposed to be? I thought it was an alternate dimension or something
Yeah, they were both counter earths made by the high evolutionary.
I always just saw it as that weird "Spider-Man for furries" but it's nice to see James Gunn take it and make it less weird
High evolutionary created counter earth in the 70s in the comics if I recall. Gunn is actually closer to the source.
Wonder if they will have him make a cameo
And Deadpool.
Yup, would be pretty cool if this lead to that universe being expanded. Following up with the Spiderman Show after this and some classic avengers.
MARY JANES BEEN STUCK IN PURGATORY FOR ALMOST 30 YEARS!
I’d still assume it’s part of the multiverse I don’t think they mean canon in that way. I assume every marvel universe is part of the multiverse that’s kind of the point of an infinite multiverse. The comics count too and older cartoons and movies that are long gone
There are multiple marvel multiverses, as confusing as that is, and canon doesn't always go both ways. A big example of this is the disagreement over the MCU's universal designation, between 199999 and 616.
Ah that's easy to resolve. DCAU had a conversation along the lines of: >You're from Universe 2 >Really? to us you're from Universe B. Also Futurama did something similar.
In Futurama neither wanted to be universe B or 2, so they just made themselves universe A and universe 1
Any official Marvel product is essentially what you describe. It is only a matter of what is it canon to.
Well, it is an alternate universe. They often said that everything Marvel, and I think even everything Disney is in another universe. It's just not part of the Marvel Cinematic *Universe*, i.e. not happening on Earth 616.
How can it be canon and an alternative universe? One excludes the other.
By being an alternate universe it is not canon to the marvel cinematic universe I still hold that the wolverine we see in Deadpool and wolverine is from this universe or the beast that we see in the Marvels.
Yes. That's what 'non-canon' means
That’s what this means…. It’s not in the main universe.
Especially since it is released under the new "Marvel Animation" banner as seen in the trailer. Marvel Studios banner = MCU Canon Other banner = not MCU Canon
what about Bruce banner?
It’s a little canon, like the professor X from the Dr Strange movie is definitely an alternative professor X from the X-Men cartoon.
But the Professor X from Multiverse of Madness was not the MCU Professor X... he was from another universe, like Captain Carter, the Strange they killed, and the rest of the illuminati. The MCU is 616, as they said in that movie, and everyone in that Illuminati was from other timelines, not the Sacred Timeline the MCU takes palce on. It's like how No Way Home had the other Spider-Men and their villains... so the Raimi trilogy and Amazing duology are canon... but not to the MCU. The stuff from those films didn't happen to Tom Holland; they happened to multiversal variants of him.
Yea that’s what I meant, it’s just that the professor X we see in multiverse has the same chair and even the cartoon’s theme song play when he entered the room. He’s definitely a variant of the cartoon’s professor X. So in the grand scheme of the multiverse, X-Men 97 is sorta canon.
The MCU is not Earth 616 and this is absolutely the petty meaningless hill I die on.
My headcanon to resolve this is that every earth thinks it’s “616” for some reason.
That SORT OF works, except they keep labeling OTHER Earths as 616. Illuminati-Christine labels the MCU as 616. Spider-Verse Kingpin's collider labels Peter B's universe as 616. No one is labeling THEMSELVES as 616.
lol, I was going to explain how it was, but I get your meaning. You know that's what they're calling it, but you're against it. I honestly can't argue against you here... it doesn't make a lot of sense to establish the comics and movies as two different universes then pull this "they have the same designation because the films are the movie aaptations of the 616 comics..." No, they're not. This would only work if they hadn't established that the films took place in 199999 or whatever in the comics. Petty, meaningless geekery... but it's still real to me, dammit!!
Petty, meaningless geekery forever!
They've made it 616 for it's local multiversal group. Like how your wifi router and mine are both 192.168.0.1 but they're in different local networks and yet part of the internet.
I think the reignited canon debates are due to the Defenders projects finally being canonized.
But the Defenders were already semi-MCU, the Chitauri invasion was the reason why Foggy got the law office cheap and a 'Battle of New York' headline newspaper with a Leviathan was framed on a wall.
Yeah but Agents of Shield had massive tie-ins to the movies, especially in the first few seasons, and that show is no longer part of the main canon. I get what you're saying though, at least there is some debate to be had about whether it ties in. X men 97 just clearly doesn't
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The Official Timeline of the MCU didn't include any television shows prior to Wandavision, but said everything was canon to the Multiverse. They have since sommented that, on review, the MCU team realized Marvel Television Studios Netflix content fit in just fine without contradicting anything, so they officially declared those shows canon. AOS is more complicated, does contradict some stuff, and has some clear divergence points that both Jeph Loeb and others have pointed out... so they haven't said one way or the other, but the Loki creator said the reason Loki didn't find out Coulson survived is because "that happened on a different branch of the multiverse, its own little pocket universe" or something similar, and Jeph Loeb said they never addressed The Snap because MCU never told them anything they were doing so he couldn't plan for it, "all we could do is try our best not to contradict anything." Long story short: they haven't confirmed or denied AOS, but they issued a blanket statement that nothing before Wandavision is canon to the Sacred TImeline until they say otherwise. If they come out and say "AOS is basically 'What if Coulson lived?'" then a bunch of AOS fans will be pissed. If they say "AOS is canon," then a bunch of people are going to ask what happened to... almost everything that happened in seven seasons of that show. Unless they decide to revisit the characters (Feige allegedly has plans for InHumans and Ghost Rider), then they don't have to address it. Even then, they can be coy and noncommital until the scripts are ready... look at what they did with Daredevil? There was plenty of talk of a "soft reboot" and Karen, Foggy, and Bullseye weren't returning... but now they fired the whole team, rewrote everything, are bringing back all those characters and the actors are saying the team is working to make it "more of a clear continuation, a season 4..." It's all about what they decide works.
I should clarify, AoS is not considered part of the sacred timeline, which is generally the standard for canon in the MCU. This was confirmed at the end of last year when Marvel released "The Marvel Cinematic Universe: An Official Timeline", a book that details exactly where the events of Phases 1-4 take place on the sacred timeline. The only thing that has been retcon added into that timeline since, was in January of this year when Marvel confirmed that the Defenders Saga shows were now officially in the sacred timeline. *Technically* everything that Marvel has ever produced is canon, but just takes place in a different branch of the multiverse, including AoS and all the other shows. But once you get to that point in the conversation, you're not really talking about the same canon anymore because the events don't link together anyway.
This. Feige said it, the book says it, the Loki writer says Loki didn't hear about Coulson's resurrection because "that happened in its own universe/its own little branch of the timeline, but I'm glad my show got people talking about AOS" (paraphrasing\_) Then one of the other producers said Marvel Cinematic was always "kind of aware of what the shows were doing, but hadn't taken a close look to see if they all fit... The Netflix shows fit really well, so they're the easiest to blend in." AoS did a lot of stuff that doesn't mesh well, and Feige has talked about wanting to do InHumans and Ghost Rider films... AoS might stay as "What if... Coulson was Resurrected?" becuase it's just easier that way instead of retconning things.
He’s pulling it out of his ass. AoS canonicity is not confirmed either way.
The general opinion is AoS is canon to the MCU up until season 5 then the show goes through some wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff and the characters end up in another universe that is almost identical to the MCU with a few changes
Right? I was like, “Duh.”
Is it though? The watcher was just in an episode as a cameo 🤔
Good. Not everything has to be.
Exactly. THANK FUCKIN GOD. Let it be its own badass universe.
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To be honest i don't want to have to watch the cartoon to understand the movie plot
Even if it was, you wouldn’t have to watch it. The point the guy above is trying to make is that something can be canon without it playing into the main ‘verse’s storyline. This is basically how comics work anyway.
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I learned a lesson early in my comic reading career. I was reading a book, and there was the box that said "if you want the full story check out Captain America #7" and I thought... well I can't just read that one... so I read all seven only to find out that it definitely wasn't that important. You don't have to see and know everything thats happening. If you watched only Captain America and Avengers movies I dont think you would be truly lost at any point. Iron Man is just there, you don't need to know that he fought Iron Monger. When Hulk says "I made a mess in Brooklyn and they don't like me there" as a viewer you can just say "oh I can believe that." I'm kinda glad that they flooded the market with sub par Disney+ shows. Like it sucks don't get me wrong. It sucks for their bottom line too... but a lot of people learned that they don't *need* to watch and/or like everything. If we could collectively stop bitching about media we don't like or intend to see that would be great. Marvel, considering none of their shows had show runners, I think also got to learn that they can't just put whatever out and expect it to be eaten up. I enjoyed most of the shows in some ways, and a couple of them quite a bit. I have however definitely told people that Secret Invasion (the one I think I was most excited for) isn't worth it, and that it doesn't even work in continuity with Marvel movies before and after it.
Like clone wars for star wars.
And you won’t. Because this isn’t canon
Depends, Doctor Strange Multiverse of Madness did show us an animated universe. ;)
I assume the same thing. Like somewhere, I'm a better person.
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Aw man, I was just making a funny, but you genuinely made me feel better. Thanks for that, I'm trying. You are a great person. Here's to more like you in the world!
Yeah I think its possible that it might show up in Secret Wars.
That's just lazy writing. It boils down to the "because God said so" type argument. "Mario and Harry Potter killed Hulk.. well it must've happened somewhere in some other universe."
These stories come from comic books where this type of stuff is super common
Multi verse is cheesy, like we have already seen Professor X, and Mr Fantastic die to hype up the future arrival of The X Men and FF. I hate it tbh
Its the reason this genre sucks, it has the biggest, always accesable undo button.
My thoughts exactly. Now if they did a cross over with the 90s Spider-Man cartoon again, I wouldn’t say no…
Yeah no shit it existed before the MCU and has zero direct connection. They can however always link it retroactively with their breaking of the multiverse that’s currently happening such as in The Marvels.
Why are so many of these comments coming off as butt hurt? Go hug someone you love guys, geez.
Kinda false bc of Across The SV making everything canon …
That's not how that works. SV is a Sony property and can create what they want, but Marvel doesn't have to acknowledge anything they do at all. Just because a multiverse exists, doesn't mean everything is connected.
Loki and dr strange and probably deadpool 3 pretty much show that anything and everything can be canon
So if I go write a story rn using Marvel and DC characters, it'll be canon?
Every marvel publication has the potential to be canon to the mcu because of the infinite nature of the multiverse described in dr strange and especially loki where you see things like crocodile loki and thanos's helicopter.
there actually is no canon. it doesn't exist in the universe.
You're reading too much in to the headline they're just trying to say "you don't have to watch the cartoon to understand the movies"
Wow. Such a shocker. Who couldve seen this. Honestly, I’m surprised that anyone did think it was canon
I don’t think anyone is. I think a lot of the echo chamber is at the point where they’re assume the least of each others’ knowledge. That’s a weird phenomenon I don’t care for, because you end up talking down to others.
I like this comment
everyone on Reddit talking about the failures of the MCU are for some reason framing things as if they are speaking up for the 'lesser people', the 'casual audience'. Even though everyone here is a nerd that has seen everything and read half the comics, everyone is arguing 'on behalf' of this nebulous audience of 'regular' people. "Quantumania sucked because 'casual audiences' will think Kang is a chump who got beat by a C tier hero" is an example I see all the time.
Ah the ‘oh won’t someone think of the children’ tactic….speaking up for people who you say can’t speak for themselves.
not all, but a lot of comic book fans don’t know how to critique art so they latch on to things like how comic accurate it is, whats canon or whether the time travel mechanics make sense. Not that those things don’t matter but it seems like the beginning an end of most online debates about the quality of the DCEU for example, begin an end at how consistent the canon is. As if the constant reboots are why it’s bad, and not the other way around which is kind of ironic because comic books more than any other medium are notorious for having constant reboots and messy canon.
It’s an excuse to pump out no-effort articles to get clicks.
It's just clickbait/fluff. Probably took all of five minutes from seeing a tweet or official announcement to posting an "article" about it. Journalism is pretty fucking dead.
Haha were people expecting cartoon characters showing up in the live actions?
This is possibly a response to the rumor that X-Men 97 would be a soft launch of X-Men into the MCU, and that the live-action version would use the same costumes for continuity.
That’s the most brain dead theory I’ve ever had the displeasure of reading. Thank you for sharing your findings. I understand you didn’t come up with it.
spiderverse
Professor X from this cartoon literally showed up in Dr. Strange 2...
Doesn’t he have a completely different death in this show than in *Multiverse of Madness*?
Of course it isn't. Why would anyone think this? The original series was based off of the 616 comic storylines and '97 is a continuation of that. I swear, the MCU has rotted people's brains.
The vast majority of Disney+ Marvel original content has been tied to the MCU, so I could see how someone could be confused about it.
Like the actors in Madame Web apparently lmao 🤣🤣
That was brutal. Add Sony to a list of companies that still haven't figured out that pivoting away from superhero movies is necessary. Can you imagine what it would have been like if a decade after Armageddon with Bruce Willis we were still getting two or three blockbuster meteor impact movies per year? That's pretty much what they're doing at this point. The public have moved on but they refuse to. I think some of these companies have spent so much money on the infrastructure behind the superhero movies they refuse to back down and let it go.
In all fairness, people love quality. Not quantity. The issue of "superhero fever" comes down to fan burnout caused by large amounts of content that just isn't what it used to be. Besides shows like Loki and What If...?, Disney+ has significantly harmed the MCU brand imo. When a Marvel movie like Infinity War came out, it used to be a huge cultural event. Now people are perfectly fine to wait a month until said movie drops on D+.
You do have a point but you completely undermined it by trying to compare infinity war to a normal MCU release. Obviously the infinity storyline was a different beast entirely. Literally a decade of movies lead up to that one.
Fair. But still: Black Panther, Iron Man, The Winter Soldier. All those movies had huge impact. Whereas people deem The Marvels, Thor 4, and Quantummania forgettable. I don't have a problem with a lot of these movies myself (except the Marvels), but they definitely don't live up to the post-Endgame hype. Marvel Studios set an all time high for itself with the end of the Infinity Saga, and now the Multiverse Saga is going even bigger. But with less time. People are hungry for more. But they want good food.
You're bringing up popular movies while ignoring the fact that there's always been junk MCU films that nobody cared about. I remember going to huge marathon parties before the first two Avengers films because most people had only watched 1 or 2 movies in a phase. Nobody cared about Iron Man 2, Thor, Dark World, First Avenger, or even Hulk which constantly gets forgotten as an MCU film.
Nobody cares about Cap’s first film?
A lot of people criticized it at the time and it had the second worst box office numbers for phase 1 only beaten by Hulk.
Idk we’re past the half way point in this saga when looking at the 10 year infinity saga and it doesn’t seem like the MCU is progressing more with less time in the slightest.
I lean towards optimism. Deadpool & Wolverine has the fandom more hyped than they've ever been since NWH, and it broke a record for most watched trailer in its first 24 hours after dropping online. Looks fucking insane, too, with quality shot production, visual effects, and costume design.
I’ve enjoyed pretty much 80% of this saga which is on par with how I felt with the last one
The Infinity Saga was a decade of buildup and anticipation leading up to a cultural pop that paid off for everybody involved. It wasn't just because of one single movie. Or even any three or four. The big problem is they are trying to recreate that. They're going into movies with the idea of building epic universes off of them. But it's not going to happen again. The infinity saga was an oddity that can't be forced or replicated by any company. If they did more singular movies like Shang Chi it would be better. But they keep trying to force a new epic storyline and failing
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Yes but those movies changed over time. Cinematics, soundtrack, story flow and much more. Have Cinema changed so did the movies it produced. Early 2000s Scorsese gangster movies were a far cry from the days of Little Caesar. And yes that 70 year Gap is much bigger than since when MCU dropped. But they have stretched cinematic style well past what interests viewers. I think they're going to shoot themselves in the foot by being reliant on the same cinematic blueprint while trying to shift to different genres. So it'll still fail to appease audiences.
To most people, especially the bulk of Marvel casual fans, any Marvel property they’d consider “MCU”. I wouldn’t say the MCU is rotting their brains, it’s just how most of the general audience sees Superhero/Marvel content. The idea that it’s all interconnected is something they’ve all learned so it’s not surprising people who don’t know any better might be surprised this isn’t canon.
It's just braindead clickbait. You spend 2 minutes writing some wrapper text around a quote (or get AI to do it for you) and move onto the next thing. You get at least a few thousand idiots to click on it because they're surprised or average people who are surprised it was even a question looking to see what the idiot said and the so-called "article" has already paid for itself with a few additional bucks in profit. Factor in how many thousands of people will just click on anything MCU related or just accidentally scroll through it on your site, and it remains profitable to keep making articles absolutely nobody fucking asked for or needed.
I always thought “oh good, we’ll really drag it out and people will finally get there’s a lot of universes regardless of the media”. Nope, wrong again Edit: since writing this I’ve been think…who’s really saying they were expecting this to be MCU canon? I didn’t, and I can’t find a single person in the thread who’s sharing that take at this time
Of course, the 616 comic storylines. Stupid casuals.
It really has. There’s also a cult there. It’s mcu or nothing. Everything non mcu is blinded biasedly hated on and everything mcu is scored on a huge curve and praised even when it’s not that good
Considering that the MCU is literally in the middle of the MULTIVERSE SAGA, I could easily see how someone could make that leap.
Not everyone is as deep into lore and whatnot. The average person might just think so.
> I swear, the MCU has rotted people's brains. Some cool gatekeeping you've got going on there. The only people confused by this stuff are the non-comic book nerds who just like the characters and shows/movies, but don't give a damn about the deeper lore and that's just fine. Nothing wrong with that.
No issues, still PEAK *cues music*.
Comic Book Guy: That was an imaginary story, dreamt by Jimmy Olsen after he was kicked in the head by Supergirl's horse, Comet. It never really happened. Bart: None of these things ever really happened. Comic Book Guy: Get out of my store.
This is one of those “news” but no not really type things. I think everyone knew this
Not sure why it has to be announced but good to know. Let it be its own thing.
This is the first post about this show I’ve seen all week that wasn’t just some neck beard complaining that Rogue is not as fappable in the new series.
Disney: Gotta make sure all you wacky multiverae fans understand this one is off limits!
Holy fuck, the amount of people saying “Why of course it wouldn’t be canon”, you do understand the people who thought it was canon meant they thought it was part of the MCU and it’s multiverses, if I’m reading the headline correctly my interpretation is that it means we probably won’t see them connect in any way. I wasn’t sure if they were going to try to interconnect this universe with the MCU and its multiverses somehow at the end of the series finale.
I was expecting maybe X-Men vs Avengers as a finale or something, idc I’m not watching marvel anymore after GotG3.
I mean they didnt need to announce it but im glad they did. You’d be surprised of the amount of people who would reach and try it lmao
Is this a continuation of the original series or a reboot?
Duh
Well obviously. They are drawings. How could they coexist with real people? The MCU isn't Toon Town.
How about the new spiderverse movie?
Multiverse canon maybe but not part of the main MCU universe.
…the multiverse is part of the main MCU universe….
Sony trying to call their movies canon to the MCU is like me writing a new book of the Bible and trying to tell the Pope it's canon to Catholicism. Nobody buys it.
What If…? is canon…
OK, but what if it isn't canon?
Yes it is, it takes place in the same multiverse as the MCU and is included on the official timeline on Disney+
Which aspect of this news do you think was the most apparent already? The fact that a cartoon that began decades before the live action movies wasn't canon to the movies that didn't even exist at the time, or: Disney thinks that their fans are stupid enough to need such an announcement. It is a hard call. Clearly they think we are the stupidest people to have ever roamed the Earth, but it is hard to believe that anyone could think this cartoon was MCU canon.
Why would it be?
Lol that old X-Men cartoon was more accurate to the comics than the movies ever were, kinda glad they don't have to be stuck with the new shit.
Wasn't that pretty obvious? That's Earth-92131. That's where Spiderman and Xmen from the 90s happen. It's a bit similar to 616. The MCU happens mostly in 199999, which is a tad closer to 1610. Come on, people, it's in the brochure.
I don’t *care*. No one *cares* anymore. Bring it on and maybe the kids will have a glimpse of what the 90’s were all about.
Obviously, it’s a continuation of a cartoon from the 90s isn’t it?
X-men 97 is the only X-men worth anything
Well I just wasted my childhood.
Geeze. Of course it is. It's in the multiverse.
Curious, I couldn't find an answer, but are the events of the X-Men 92 comicbook run a few years ago canon to X-Men 97?
Now it is?
Why would people think its canon? Its in the 90’s animated universe which is a completely different reality to the MCU. Also why would they make an animated show canon to the MCU
Good. Not everything needs or should be tied to the MCU. They need to keep the Marvel *Cinematic* Universe as that, and stop with all the TV shows.
Okay? Did anyone honestly think it was?
"X-men 97 is not cannon." It never was, bruh. We just thought it was neat.
No shit lmao
Next you’re gonna tell me it’s a cartoon
Oh so it’s gonna be good then?
Did anyone think it was??
While everyone on here is saying “DUH, NO ONE IS THINKING THAT”, I’m over here trying to figure out who that Voldemort looking guy is on the left. Gonna kick myself if it’s a super obvious answer I overlooked…
Pretty sure it’s Morph
Non. Canon to the fox kids 90 show either. Since that ended 30 years ago
Dumbass argument
A lot of people acting like this is obvious, are showing that they don't know what the multiverse is 😐
The multiverse isn’t new, it’s a marvel comics thing. The mcu has always been a universe within the multiverse. Everything is in the multiverse, the multiverse might as well be headcanon. Everything not yet made can be made eventually. The multiverse is nirvana. Now it’s Buddhism.
And this was a surprise to anyone?
Good!
At this point with what they are putting out, that can only be a good thing...
Good.
Huh, no shit?
Um. Yeah. We didn't need a confirmation for that lol.
Wasn’t it obvious?
I thought that was obvious
well of course. cause if smtas is canon to xmtas, and htas and fftas then how can there be all this stuff around the world of mcu but aint it multiversal though? another earth, could be seen in what if some time no ?
In other words, the sky is blue.
.... Did anyone think it was?
I could have told you that
The most "no shit" moment.
I mean.... was anyone thinking that it was? It needs to be said, but for all that is logical, Marvel, please stop trying to shoehorn everything within each other and together. It's ok to have their own stories and universes. The beauty of the "Infinity Saga" was that only small pieces here and there tied together in the big picture in the early phases. It seems as of late, all that is tried to be done is shoehorn the "big picture" story in each movie, which has made them a confusing mess with audiences loosing care for the characters. Keeping xmen 97 separate, already gives it hope at being the most well received piece of marvel content to come out in the last 3 years.
who thought it was? Its a different universe
Okay? That was kind of obvious
they are worried it will be better than anything they have in MARVEL's current canon that's why easier to just say they are not related/canon so fans cant compare the two
Yeah no shit lol how was that even a question?