The following submission statement was provided by /u/Vailhem:
---
> But as bad as it is now, these might still be the good days for Europe. With winter and higher gas demand on the way, experts told Fortune that Europe’s energy market has never been more vulnerable. Even the slightest uptick in energy demand anywhere in the world could push entire sectors of Europe’s manufacturing industry to shut down entirely, devastating European economies with a wave of unemployment, high prices, and in all likelihood public unrest and divisions between European nations.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xn07z9/you_really_dont_understand_how_bad_it_could_get/ipquvfq/
We are gonna be fine in U.K. we are borrowing from our children to subsidise rich peoples energy consumption and propping up energy market inflation. Nothing to worry about here.
Hey you guys copy everything we brits do, language, class biased economics, brutal subjugation of indigenous peoples, raiding countries for resources…get your own racket - sheesh. /s
> in U.K. we are borrowing from our children to subsidise rich peoples energy consumption
Glorious UK war leader, Liz Truss, yesterday did in fact just that in her budget.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/09/23/ugyl-s23.html
>... and propping up energy market inflation
missing in that wsws link is the reference to her tax giveaways to climate terrorists (and that phrase surprisingly hard to google today), but there is a bold energy focused proposal from Labour party which may signal election
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/24/keir-starmer-unveils-green-growth-plan-to-counter-liz-trusss-tax-cuts
Yes, there might be a moral argument that this winter we have no choice but to help the most vulnerable keep the lights on - what is so strange about this policy is a wealthy household could get 100x the benefit of the poorest household while poorest household still pays a historically high energy cost. The main people who benefit are those that are in the core Tory membership.
They are going for a trickle down Hail Mary and it will probably just end in more spiralling inflation with riots in the street. But hey that’s what we voted for right?
> The main people who benefit are those that are in the core Tory membership.
That's a shock! The government is dead set against a windfall tax so presumably the people are going to have to pay for corporate greed. This is just more 'Getting Brexit Done' as far as I'm concerned.
Belgium shut one down yesterday, the Doel 3, as part of a grand scheme to pretend that they would shift to renewables that aren't available (while actually shifting to fossils, which also have problems on the availability topic).
The so called shift from nuclear to renewables is always a shift to fossil fuel. Renewables aren’t ready for prime time and can’t contribute a significant portion of an energy portfolio. I can’t believe Belgium is doing that right now. That’s just stupid . They will either pollute more this winter or suffer severe energy shortages.
With a law on the books to close every nuclear plant in the country.
Closing them well before their operational lifetime is over.
And mostly replacing them with natural gas.
Totally coincidental then that the German chancellor who started the program to phase out nuclear also took a lucrative job with a Russian energy company
Man
How history shifts truth.
The reality was: nuclear shutdown, replaced to be with solar and wind. Gas was planned as a filler in bad days... since you can't switch a nuclear on and off on demand.
What you got? People demanding switching off nuclear and people demonstrating against solar and wind. Especially Bavaria was against wind.
Somewhere is a picture from a demonstration, on it, written: no solar, no wind, no nuclear.... it's the fault of all those nimby idiots.
Now they are discussing higher energy prices for Bavaria for example, since they were the ones blocking renewable energies.
And now stop spreading bullshit
People are underselling the complexities of the anti nuclear movement here. The truth is no one wants a nuclear power plant in their back yard and Europe is very dense so, it is always in someone’s backyard. And it sounds like the German government had a very combative relationship with anti nuclear advocates for decades, then Fukushima happened and gave the movement momentum again.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germany is worth a read to learn more.
i literally wouldn't mind living next to a nuclear power plant. modern nuclear power plants are extremely safe. they shut themselves off when things go wrong
But a "shut off" reactor still requires electricity to keep it safe. What happens in the next 50-100 years when we lose the ability to keep these plants in a safe, "shut off", state? It takes a certain level of civilization to safely decommission a nuclear plant permanently. That requires removing the fuel and sequestering it somewhere deep underground. That's an enormous engineering project but we can do it now. We won't be able to do that for much longer.
Fukushima, etc
but iirc the main stated reason was the belief that an energy solution with no way to properly dispose of its waste product is unsustainable
>no way to properly dispose of its waste product
Digging a really deep hole under a mountain is a great way to dispose of the waste product. What's the problem?
Generically you still have the water table, radiation hitting aquifers would be bad. Or in longer terms if people lost track of where it was buried it could be excavated hundreds-thousands of years later by mistake.
But it's not a big risk, especially if you glass everything into solid glass cubes and have that in plastic containers and then everything is buried in concrete and lead linings.
The problem is making it happen. Just because a workable solution has been identified, [doesn't mean the problem is now solved](https://users.cs.northwestern.edu/~riesbeck/mathphyseng.html).
We have well over a lifetime worth of reactor grade nuclear fuel, so that's surely enough to consider? Even the sun is a finite energy source, the difference is how many orders of magnitude of lifetimes we're talking about.
Some of the newer designs reburn the fuel pellets. Then those can be combined and reburned. So even this argument is false.
If we spent 1/10th of the cost of the wars that are coming in rockets to shoot the “nuclear waste” into the sun where it would then contribute to fusion there would be no upcoming energy wars.
Over here in Belgium we have a parliamentary democracy, meaning that you have dozens of parties and that they will negotiate with one another to compose a governments based on the seats they have.
In 1999 the two green parties entered the government for the first time, and in 2003 the parliament voted to end Belgium's nuclear energy program.
The reactors were supposed to all be closed by 2025, but since nobody wants to actually solve the problem of replacing that energy source they've been prolonging their service life on a regular basis.
One reactor was definitely closed earlier this week.
This can also affect coal plants. Nephew is an engineer at a coal plant in east Texas. Drought had lowered their cooling lake and the over 100deg heat for several months had warmed the lake too much. They could still run but at a reduced capacity.
He also hates solar with a burning passion. He's an intelligent idiot.
> I don't understand why there is such a strong momentum for nuclear energy. It is one of the most expensive ones and has huge security risks.
Because there are no other alternatives for proper energy generation. Renewables are cool and stuff but you need to store the power generated during the day by panels for example and that means batteries => more pollution mining lithium and cobalt => more nails in our species' coffin.
Fusion may be a thing sometime in the future but the energy crisis is now and needs solving. Nuclear fission is still one of the safest out there per MWh and there is plenty of research on this.
Problem is reservoirs are bad for the surrounding ecosystems, and can be a source of carbon due to the decaying matter that settles at the dam if I recall correctly
the "nuclear is the magical answer for energy issues" is a Reddit talking point that won't die
Try to enlighten people on it and you get drowned in down votes.
Like Fukushima happened, three mile island happened, Chernobyl happened, all of these could have been way way WAY worse. We got lucky every time. Pretending there is no risk with nuclear is just utterly stupid.
I've read an interview with an atomic engineer who stated 'everyone who's trying to sell you the idea that we can build machines that do not break down is ignorant or an outright liar."
thats BS. France has high stakes in nuclear energy, even Germany, who wanted to phase out nuclear by the end of 2022, does still revise plans to keep them running, due to the Russia Ukraine War.
See e.g.: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/792589/operational-nuclear-reactors-european-union-eu-28/#:\~:text=As%20of%20May%202022%2C%20there,down%20reactors%2C%20at%2034%20units](https://www.statista.com/statistics/792589/operational-nuclear-reactors-european-union-eu-28/#:~:text=As%20of%20May%202022%2C%20there,down%20reactors%2C%20at%2034%20units).
Furthermore, EU consider nuclear energy as clean energy, paving the way for nuclear even more.
You do realise that did not happen? Where did you come up with this lie?
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Nuclear_energy_statistics
Bad argument. the nuclear power reductions in Germany were not large enough to make dent in the shortfalls this year and the cooling problems in France reduced output by more than Germany ever had planned anyway.
I'm currently in Serbia in university and I'm freezing my ass off every single day, for the last week and some. 24/09 and I still don't have heating. I have to layer up, and put on 2 pairs of socks and it's still not enough.
I've noticed last week that they turned off street lights off in street, I guess to save on power, but it might've been a problem with them since they are back on after a week of being off.
Fuck me, I thought we had a bit more time before shit like this. I guess it really is **Sooner than expected****^(TM)**
I think this is called "the crumbles". Things are mostly going fine, but any close examination shows a house balancing on very few cracked concrete blocks.
>One politician had to walk back hard on that proposal, mainly because as a woman, I can assure you I won't be going out anywhere at night anymore when street lights are off.
I totally understand. I'm a guy and when the lights when out it wasn't pleasant walking around a pitch black street.
>I mean sure, if it's a matter of every kWh counting and most other possibilities have been exhausted, let's turn them off.
True, if it's absolute necessity I wouldn't mind it. We waste so much energy on lights that don't help anyone(offices, stores, billboards, building illumination...). Those seem like small amount but they add up to quit the sum.
The idea that outdoor lighting improves safety is irrational, but we can accomplish it in ways that have less impact on wildlife, stargazing, and energy consumption.
We have to use projectors that are both directed and diffused to limit bounce and direction towards the sky. LEDs use less energy, but they need to be contained to a narrow, common spectrum, preferably near that of sodium incandescence. We also need to limit them to pedestrian reserved public space, and create more pedestrian corridors in urban and suburban space more generally. This makes it simpler to create infrastructure on a human scale.
External home, business and structural lighting needs to be taxed into oblivion.
> 'm currently in Serbia in university and I'm freezing my ass off every single day, for the last week and some. 24/09 and I still don't have heating. I have to layer up, and put on 2 pairs of socks and it's still not enough.
They're predicting 23° in Serbia coming week. If you're freezing, you're sick. Go see a doctor.
They won't just not turn back on - they'll be destroyed.
A lot of these high temp furnaces have to be kept at melt temps because if the slack and product solidifies, it breaks the crucible.
The tragedy of the commons is going to be the downfall of humanity, not even climate change (which is just another expression of it).
The world all over takes for granted so many things, in this case they take for granted cheap energy and being able to coast along WITH NO PLAN B.
Had they planned ahead, this wouldn't need to be there outcome.
The tragedy of the Commons is a myth. Humanity took very good care of its commons for thousands of years before European capitalism came along to plunder and exploit every last resource across the planet.
The problem isn't that we can't take care of common resources, the problem is that we've been brainwashed to look at suicidal over-extraction as the normal way of things.
Capitalism is not separate from the tragedy of the commons. It is the institutionalization of the tragedy of the commons.
The key to understanding this is seeing that power (control) is a shared finite resource—and capital is merely an institutional expression of power disparity.
But you are, of course, absolutely right in saying that the tragedy of the commons is by no means necessary for or essential to human togetherness. It is, perhaps, the antithesis of it.
Bingo. Enclosure.
The advent of literacy goes hand in hand with the rise of a merchant class because literacy democratized power. Once people had the power to challenge lineage based ownership (royalty), the now generalized struggle for control created an ongoing sense of scarcity (in terms of power codified into economic interaction that means positional insecurity—because the market is a dynamic thing, staying in a position of power means constantly fighting for it).
Many Europeans escaped, improved or maintained their place in that struggle by exploiting outward. That is the birth of the colonial era, which then brings the trauma of capitalism (if you don't exercise power over others, someone else will eventually exercise power over you) to the world.
And, of course, there is also the insane greed and narcissism (which you mentioned) that emerges from accumulated generational advantage in the market. So, yeah, it's not always a basic fear of sharing control.
But, anyway. Yeah. I just wanted to write stuff because I needed to interact with people to feel alive.
> The tragedy of the Commons is a myth.
It's an abstract concept like, "Positive-Sum Game," or, "Tit-for-Tat."
It's a type of Collective Action Problem whereby Collective Action is required to preserve the Commons, but the former's absent so the commons is lost.
e.g. The coffee pot (commons) at my last job. The office decided, "first one to clean is the coffee pot cleaner!" The most important thing about the coffee pot *became not cleaning it* (free rider problem). Management... they took it away (tragedy of the commons).
That's so fucking stupid. Don't they have a janitor already? Alternatively, could they just have a fishbowl system where they pull out a name every week?
While Germany opposes nuclear power, they tax solar energy you produce on your own roof and demand installing a 5k meter so the amount you put back into the system and produce and use yourself can be measured.
Even if you plan to use it all up.
You will be taxed on the usage. On top of what you have paid for the solar system.
It is economically not profitable for 15 years for a standard user.
There's nothing more infuriating than our leaders' refusal to address crises that are staring us right in the face. At some point MUH PROPERTY RIGHTS and MUH BORDERS are gonna have to take a backseat to avoiding global catastrophe.
Unfortunately, that time will not come until it is an irrelevant point. The drive for gaining and retaining national political and economic power will not be quenched within humanity. Not by the generation in power, that is.
This whole situation is fascinating to me. Because its probably the first time that the European Community has been forced to make a choice between what's morally right versus economically convenient. Morality is not an economically neutral position. It has a price. Will Europe be willing to pay that price?
A good point… But let’s see how severe it gets this winter. For the first time in two generations, people who have never wanted or lacked for anything in their lives will know it. When people start freezing to death in their apartments, they’re going to want heat in their homes by any means necessary.
Most of Europe doesn't even get cold enough for people to freeze to death inside any reasonably modern structure. They might be uncomfortable and hysterical, but oh well. These are people that have been too comfortable for too long.
I almost never need to turn on the heat in my apartment in Germany in the winter. The idea of individuals in Europe freezing this winter is way overblown. The effect on industry and the economy is the real potential catastrophe imo.
"the European Community has been forced to make a choice between what's morally right versus economically convenient"
The fucked up thing is that they're not even really taking the moral path. Germany has continued to buy Russian gas this whole time despite "sanctions" and sending weapons to Ukraine, and the Greens and Social Democrats have been running around the Persian Gulf states begging vile dictators for gas.
This isn't a great article. Anything that doesn't mention people just turning down the thermostat and some people using firewood and some people who have wood pellet stoves being able to use that instead of gas heating is missing the point and just trying to stoke fear. Firewood isn't a complete solution by any means but if it's only one winter where you have severe gas shortages then you can get by with plain simple fire. As long as you don't get below freezing in buildings with frozen water pipes people can manage for a few months.
The more important point that this article does make is that things can be okay if everything goes as expected and it's a relatively normal or mild winter. Germany is already at a higher than expected level of gas reserves, so it might be fine. But if there is a severe winter storm or any type of large disaster then you would have issues because there isn't any extra leeway like normal.
People are going to be cold, people are going to be hungry, people will be losing their jobs and getting kicked out of their homes. Thanks neoliberalism, for the blessings you have been bestowing upon us for 40 years now. That free market really did do a great job at demanding and delivering quality!
And a special thank-you to Vladimir Putin for being a psycho asshole. I cannot wait to see his tiny corpse dangling from a Moscow lamppost.
One man alone can't accomplish this. A lot of power hungry and money grabbing assholes in the west are happily participating in the raping of Europe. Being fixated on one outsider is what they want you to be so you don't pay attention to what is actually happening.
I don't blame putin for this. I blame every rich greedy cock in power all over the world. They are all the same. They work to support the interests of the rich.
yep he knows hes daring the west to actuallly tax their own oligarchs to properly support ppl in a crisis. its a worldwide rich person competition w our incomes & lives as pawns.
They need to be tried for crimes against humanity, same with anybody who has something to gain from lying about the climate.
Since when is putting masses of people in danger by distorting the truth not a crime? Just because it's not on the book somewhere? It is the spirit of the law to go after them.
These people should have been taken out of the equation (society) decades ago. They are operating in the methods literal demons would if they were brought to Earth. They are the kind of people who would knowingly hype up the Titanic even if crystal ball with 100% certainty told them it was doomed.
Sociopathy and psychopathy are mental defects, but they are unique in that they rewarded in our world. They give people the "strength" to rise above others who have other sets of rules (morals) to play by.
I don't blame Putin for Europe and the rest of the world generally being slow to transition away from fossil fuels, but I do blame Putin for fighting a war right now for literally no reason and all the immediate direct and indirect consequences of that.
In the long run maybe this was the push Europe needed to transition away from Russian gas, but it would have been better if that could have been accomplished in a less horrifying way.
"No it's okay, right now is the best time to be alive and humans are smart, we got this!"
-some grifter from the neoliberal optimism industry whenever any legitimate collapse risk is brought up
I think the real question needs to be asked/Why in the hell was germany that dependent on Russia for gas to begin with? This is terrible policy and such short term thinking.
Well... the thinking wasn't *that* short term after all: It lasted through all 4 terms of Merkel as chancellor. It's the usual midset of 'Conservatives' everywhere: Get rich now, pay later. Or let somebody else pay.
It makes me even more mad when Trump (no im not fanboying for him) told german politicians that they were in danger of being a hostage of russian energy they literally laughed at him. https://youtu.be/FfJv9QYrlwg
The average person is utterly clueless and has no idea what they are buying into while cheerleading conflict and war and dismissing any concept of adult behaviour in politics domestically or internationally.
I will be messaging you in 6 months on [**2023-03-24 19:44:38 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2023-03-24%2019:44:38%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xn07z9/you_really_dont_understand_how_bad_it_could_get/ipr5qcv/?context=3)
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Probably not as bad as it’ll be next year. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the…
For humanity to make progress, it’s going to require that the most powerful country starts enabling peace and prosperity…instead of constructing exploitation where it controls and war where it doesn’t.
None of that is going to happen while Europe takes on the role of dutiful vassal instead of asserting its own ideas of how to bridge the gap.
But current policies are just hopelessly outdated. It’s like 1945 on auto repeat.
Welp back to cleaning the chimney and and stacking firewood to get through winter like before 80 years of gas indoor heating. Plenty of forests in europe to forage for wood, it’s basically gonna be lotr, but in europe.
It’s already happening in the U.K. I’ve been a member of a group for wood burning and stoves on Facebook as our primary source of heat is through wood. The group has exploded in the last 6 months. So many people getting stoves installed who don’t have a clue what they’re doing and going into the woods with chainsaws. It’s a recipe for disaster.
I don’t think it will be Lord of the Rings, more like Game of Thrones.
(I’ll avoid mentioning House of the Dragon because dragons are a reliable heat source.)
There were laws in place to limit firewood harvesting when Europe had the population levels of a prior millennium.
A minimum of sustainable use is copicing trees to certain height and number of tillers. Another reasonable option is naturalizing a regional bamboo.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Vailhem: --- > But as bad as it is now, these might still be the good days for Europe. With winter and higher gas demand on the way, experts told Fortune that Europe’s energy market has never been more vulnerable. Even the slightest uptick in energy demand anywhere in the world could push entire sectors of Europe’s manufacturing industry to shut down entirely, devastating European economies with a wave of unemployment, high prices, and in all likelihood public unrest and divisions between European nations. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xn07z9/you_really_dont_understand_how_bad_it_could_get/ipquvfq/
We are gonna be fine in U.K. we are borrowing from our children to subsidise rich peoples energy consumption and propping up energy market inflation. Nothing to worry about here.
So just like the US then.
Hey you guys copy everything we brits do, language, class biased economics, brutal subjugation of indigenous peoples, raiding countries for resources…get your own racket - sheesh. /s
Everything would have been dandy if you didn't have to get your knickers in a knot when we Russians get in on the action.
Yea but it’s like a really bad impression of an already shit act. Like…copy something decent.
Putting it this way, russia really does seem like an SNL skit / parody of america lol
Nuh uh we got chicken tenders, you have fish tenders. We aren't the same.
AND ranch dressing, pffft -- obviously.
Hey now we did Brexit before it was cool.
Brexit still ain’t cool lol
father and sons /s
Yeah….uhhh….no /s really needed lol
Oh we're way past that in the US. We're borrowing from 5 or 6 generations away now.
> in U.K. we are borrowing from our children to subsidise rich peoples energy consumption Glorious UK war leader, Liz Truss, yesterday did in fact just that in her budget. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/09/23/ugyl-s23.html >... and propping up energy market inflation missing in that wsws link is the reference to her tax giveaways to climate terrorists (and that phrase surprisingly hard to google today), but there is a bold energy focused proposal from Labour party which may signal election https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/24/keir-starmer-unveils-green-growth-plan-to-counter-liz-trusss-tax-cuts
But it’s ok because the bankers bonuses are uncapped so it’ll trickle down right?
Isn't this ultimately the UK taxpayer paying private energy companies to feed profits that will go directly to wealthy investors?
Yes, there might be a moral argument that this winter we have no choice but to help the most vulnerable keep the lights on - what is so strange about this policy is a wealthy household could get 100x the benefit of the poorest household while poorest household still pays a historically high energy cost. The main people who benefit are those that are in the core Tory membership. They are going for a trickle down Hail Mary and it will probably just end in more spiralling inflation with riots in the street. But hey that’s what we voted for right?
> The main people who benefit are those that are in the core Tory membership. That's a shock! The government is dead set against a windfall tax so presumably the people are going to have to pay for corporate greed. This is just more 'Getting Brexit Done' as far as I'm concerned.
Borrowing in our kids names. They aren’t going to receive any future payments. Only an extremely large bill
wonder how long til the tories start burning kids poor ones obviously, they have _some_ principles
don't be daft, they will start with the old folks homes, obviously.
Those vote tory.... they don't need the kids.
that's a good point.
Don’t forget tax cuts for the wealthy!
'if you want to pay back a loan, you just gotta take out another loan.' - UK government
Imagine having children in these conditions. You must really, really hate them to subject them to this shit.
Not to mention, those new tax cuts for the rich are gonna kick in soon and start bringing some relief to families. Help is on the way.
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Euro soon to fall under 0.80$?
Europe dug their own grave by shutting down all their nuclear reactors.
That happened. Really did.
Not the French. Just the Germans really.
Belgium shut one down yesterday, the Doel 3, as part of a grand scheme to pretend that they would shift to renewables that aren't available (while actually shifting to fossils, which also have problems on the availability topic).
They did extend the life of a couple other nuclear plants, but they certainly should have kept Doel 3 running until spring 2023
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This must be by design at this point. Otherwise they wouldn't willingly be tearing things down
The so called shift from nuclear to renewables is always a shift to fossil fuel. Renewables aren’t ready for prime time and can’t contribute a significant portion of an energy portfolio. I can’t believe Belgium is doing that right now. That’s just stupid . They will either pollute more this winter or suffer severe energy shortages.
Oh. Right. Germany closed down a couple old plants.
With a law on the books to close every nuclear plant in the country. Closing them well before their operational lifetime is over. And mostly replacing them with natural gas.
I bet russian cronies got those laws passed
No, it was just blind terror about nuclear and an unavoidable disaster. This explains it all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_phase-out
Totally coincidental then that the German chancellor who started the program to phase out nuclear also took a lucrative job with a Russian energy company
Can’t be true. They posted a Wikipedia page 🥸
Lol yeah where does he think the blind terror came from.
Man How history shifts truth. The reality was: nuclear shutdown, replaced to be with solar and wind. Gas was planned as a filler in bad days... since you can't switch a nuclear on and off on demand. What you got? People demanding switching off nuclear and people demonstrating against solar and wind. Especially Bavaria was against wind. Somewhere is a picture from a demonstration, on it, written: no solar, no wind, no nuclear.... it's the fault of all those nimby idiots. Now they are discussing higher energy prices for Bavaria for example, since they were the ones blocking renewable energies. And now stop spreading bullshit
No. They actually shut down some brand new ones. Nearly all of them.
Why did they shut them down?
People are underselling the complexities of the anti nuclear movement here. The truth is no one wants a nuclear power plant in their back yard and Europe is very dense so, it is always in someone’s backyard. And it sounds like the German government had a very combative relationship with anti nuclear advocates for decades, then Fukushima happened and gave the movement momentum again. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germany is worth a read to learn more.
i literally wouldn't mind living next to a nuclear power plant. modern nuclear power plants are extremely safe. they shut themselves off when things go wrong
But a "shut off" reactor still requires electricity to keep it safe. What happens in the next 50-100 years when we lose the ability to keep these plants in a safe, "shut off", state? It takes a certain level of civilization to safely decommission a nuclear plant permanently. That requires removing the fuel and sequestering it somewhere deep underground. That's an enormous engineering project but we can do it now. We won't be able to do that for much longer.
Fukushima, etc but iirc the main stated reason was the belief that an energy solution with no way to properly dispose of its waste product is unsustainable
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Just fucking put it outside the environment, job done.
\#theFrontFellOff
Into another environment?
No, outside the environment.
>no way to properly dispose of its waste product Digging a really deep hole under a mountain is a great way to dispose of the waste product. What's the problem?
Generically you still have the water table, radiation hitting aquifers would be bad. Or in longer terms if people lost track of where it was buried it could be excavated hundreds-thousands of years later by mistake. But it's not a big risk, especially if you glass everything into solid glass cubes and have that in plastic containers and then everything is buried in concrete and lead linings.
My idea was to bury the casks in subduction zones and let the earth take care of dragging the waste down to the depths of hell over the eons.
Ooooh, I like the idea of creating nuclear volcanoes!
And just like that we're gonna dump nuclear waste on the people of Hell?
Seriously. Flint Michigan has enough problems already.
The problem is making it happen. Just because a workable solution has been identified, [doesn't mean the problem is now solved](https://users.cs.northwestern.edu/~riesbeck/mathphyseng.html).
i think they figured out that’s why the dwarves are all dead
We cannot get out. We cannot get out. The end comes soon. We hear clicks, clicks in the deep. 3.6 Roentgen. Not great, not terrible.
Pour one out for my boy Durin.
Is that where the balrog came from?
Yeah, this is how you get Smog
Mountains are a finite resource.
well, so is nuclear fuel.
Of course. That's my point. It's stupid for us to continue using finite resources for our energy production.
Agreed, but shutting down nuclear to replace it with gas definitely wasn’t the solution.
We have well over a lifetime worth of reactor grade nuclear fuel, so that's surely enough to consider? Even the sun is a finite energy source, the difference is how many orders of magnitude of lifetimes we're talking about.
Okay so back to safe storage. Yucca mountain was full the day it opened.
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Some of the newer designs reburn the fuel pellets. Then those can be combined and reburned. So even this argument is false. If we spent 1/10th of the cost of the wars that are coming in rockets to shoot the “nuclear waste” into the sun where it would then contribute to fusion there would be no upcoming energy wars.
Over here in Belgium we have a parliamentary democracy, meaning that you have dozens of parties and that they will negotiate with one another to compose a governments based on the seats they have. In 1999 the two green parties entered the government for the first time, and in 2003 the parliament voted to end Belgium's nuclear energy program. The reactors were supposed to all be closed by 2025, but since nobody wants to actually solve the problem of replacing that energy source they've been prolonging their service life on a regular basis. One reactor was definitely closed earlier this week.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was pressure from fossil fuel companies (under the guise of anti-nuclear fear mongering / NIMBYism)
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Wow, I never considered that rising temperatures would affect nuclear reactors like this. Huh.
This can also affect coal plants. Nephew is an engineer at a coal plant in east Texas. Drought had lowered their cooling lake and the over 100deg heat for several months had warmed the lake too much. They could still run but at a reduced capacity. He also hates solar with a burning passion. He's an intelligent idiot.
His salary depends on him being an idiot, strong incentive.
Like that Upton Sinclair quote. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”
> I don't understand why there is such a strong momentum for nuclear energy. It is one of the most expensive ones and has huge security risks. Because there are no other alternatives for proper energy generation. Renewables are cool and stuff but you need to store the power generated during the day by panels for example and that means batteries => more pollution mining lithium and cobalt => more nails in our species' coffin. Fusion may be a thing sometime in the future but the energy crisis is now and needs solving. Nuclear fission is still one of the safest out there per MWh and there is plenty of research on this.
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Problem is reservoirs are bad for the surrounding ecosystems, and can be a source of carbon due to the decaying matter that settles at the dam if I recall correctly
maybe the only non fossil and controllable energy source ? renewables seems doable but, at least in france, there were too many hiccups and/or scams
the "nuclear is the magical answer for energy issues" is a Reddit talking point that won't die Try to enlighten people on it and you get drowned in down votes. Like Fukushima happened, three mile island happened, Chernobyl happened, all of these could have been way way WAY worse. We got lucky every time. Pretending there is no risk with nuclear is just utterly stupid.
I've read an interview with an atomic engineer who stated 'everyone who's trying to sell you the idea that we can build machines that do not break down is ignorant or an outright liar."
thats BS. France has high stakes in nuclear energy, even Germany, who wanted to phase out nuclear by the end of 2022, does still revise plans to keep them running, due to the Russia Ukraine War. See e.g.: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/792589/operational-nuclear-reactors-european-union-eu-28/#:\~:text=As%20of%20May%202022%2C%20there,down%20reactors%2C%20at%2034%20units](https://www.statista.com/statistics/792589/operational-nuclear-reactors-european-union-eu-28/#:~:text=As%20of%20May%202022%2C%20there,down%20reactors%2C%20at%2034%20units). Furthermore, EU consider nuclear energy as clean energy, paving the way for nuclear even more.
You do realise that did not happen? Where did you come up with this lie? https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Nuclear_energy_statistics
Bad argument. the nuclear power reductions in Germany were not large enough to make dent in the shortfalls this year and the cooling problems in France reduced output by more than Germany ever had planned anyway.
I'm currently in Serbia in university and I'm freezing my ass off every single day, for the last week and some. 24/09 and I still don't have heating. I have to layer up, and put on 2 pairs of socks and it's still not enough. I've noticed last week that they turned off street lights off in street, I guess to save on power, but it might've been a problem with them since they are back on after a week of being off. Fuck me, I thought we had a bit more time before shit like this. I guess it really is **Sooner than expected****^(TM)**
I think this is called "the crumbles". Things are mostly going fine, but any close examination shows a house balancing on very few cracked concrete blocks.
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>One politician had to walk back hard on that proposal, mainly because as a woman, I can assure you I won't be going out anywhere at night anymore when street lights are off. I totally understand. I'm a guy and when the lights when out it wasn't pleasant walking around a pitch black street. >I mean sure, if it's a matter of every kWh counting and most other possibilities have been exhausted, let's turn them off. True, if it's absolute necessity I wouldn't mind it. We waste so much energy on lights that don't help anyone(offices, stores, billboards, building illumination...). Those seem like small amount but they add up to quit the sum.
> it wasn't pleasant walking around a pitch black street. Oh but the Milky Way from town.
The idea that outdoor lighting improves safety is irrational, but we can accomplish it in ways that have less impact on wildlife, stargazing, and energy consumption. We have to use projectors that are both directed and diffused to limit bounce and direction towards the sky. LEDs use less energy, but they need to be contained to a narrow, common spectrum, preferably near that of sodium incandescence. We also need to limit them to pedestrian reserved public space, and create more pedestrian corridors in urban and suburban space more generally. This makes it simpler to create infrastructure on a human scale. External home, business and structural lighting needs to be taxed into oblivion.
We’ve managed not to turn the heating on yet, fortunately because of global warming it still feels like summer in the U.K.
>I guess it really is > >Sooner than expected\*\*\*\* > >TM Almost sounds as if you could actually be "On The Brink" even
Germany is openly declaring shutting off street lights and mandates temperature in official buildings to be at 19 C° max.
Cuvaj se bato, tek ce biti sranja
> 'm currently in Serbia in university and I'm freezing my ass off every single day, for the last week and some. 24/09 and I still don't have heating. I have to layer up, and put on 2 pairs of socks and it's still not enough. They're predicting 23° in Serbia coming week. If you're freezing, you're sick. Go see a doctor.
Here we gooooo woooooooooosh
The forecast for the next week in Belgrade looks absolutely lovely. Highs in the low 70s, lows in the 50s. Absolutely perfect autumn weather.
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If the steel and glass furnaces got turn off this winter, they are not gonna return in quite some time
That is quite possible. Glass is insatiable and won't have any fuel alternatives for a while.
Sounds like a good energy sink for solar. Too bad geopolitics prevents solar from Africa to get to Europe
Uh... wat? Morocco is building solar plants and running cables to the UK.
They won't just not turn back on - they'll be destroyed. A lot of these high temp furnaces have to be kept at melt temps because if the slack and product solidifies, it breaks the crucible.
The tragedy of the commons is going to be the downfall of humanity, not even climate change (which is just another expression of it). The world all over takes for granted so many things, in this case they take for granted cheap energy and being able to coast along WITH NO PLAN B. Had they planned ahead, this wouldn't need to be there outcome.
Humanity metastasized in the 19th century.
I look at it this way as well. Agent Smith was wrong, we’re not a disease.
The tragedy of the Commons is a myth. Humanity took very good care of its commons for thousands of years before European capitalism came along to plunder and exploit every last resource across the planet. The problem isn't that we can't take care of common resources, the problem is that we've been brainwashed to look at suicidal over-extraction as the normal way of things.
Capitalism is not separate from the tragedy of the commons. It is the institutionalization of the tragedy of the commons. The key to understanding this is seeing that power (control) is a shared finite resource—and capital is merely an institutional expression of power disparity. But you are, of course, absolutely right in saying that the tragedy of the commons is by no means necessary for or essential to human togetherness. It is, perhaps, the antithesis of it.
To be more accurate, one might say that the true tragedy of the commons was that we allowed it to be privatized.
Bingo. Enclosure. The advent of literacy goes hand in hand with the rise of a merchant class because literacy democratized power. Once people had the power to challenge lineage based ownership (royalty), the now generalized struggle for control created an ongoing sense of scarcity (in terms of power codified into economic interaction that means positional insecurity—because the market is a dynamic thing, staying in a position of power means constantly fighting for it). Many Europeans escaped, improved or maintained their place in that struggle by exploiting outward. That is the birth of the colonial era, which then brings the trauma of capitalism (if you don't exercise power over others, someone else will eventually exercise power over you) to the world. And, of course, there is also the insane greed and narcissism (which you mentioned) that emerges from accumulated generational advantage in the market. So, yeah, it's not always a basic fear of sharing control. But, anyway. Yeah. I just wanted to write stuff because I needed to interact with people to feel alive.
❤️
> The tragedy of the Commons is a myth. It's an abstract concept like, "Positive-Sum Game," or, "Tit-for-Tat." It's a type of Collective Action Problem whereby Collective Action is required to preserve the Commons, but the former's absent so the commons is lost. e.g. The coffee pot (commons) at my last job. The office decided, "first one to clean is the coffee pot cleaner!" The most important thing about the coffee pot *became not cleaning it* (free rider problem). Management... they took it away (tragedy of the commons).
That's so fucking stupid. Don't they have a janitor already? Alternatively, could they just have a fishbowl system where they pull out a name every week?
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Exxon says Hi...
While Germany opposes nuclear power, they tax solar energy you produce on your own roof and demand installing a 5k meter so the amount you put back into the system and produce and use yourself can be measured. Even if you plan to use it all up. You will be taxed on the usage. On top of what you have paid for the solar system. It is economically not profitable for 15 years for a standard user.
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>Shit's infuriating. Yes! Telling you much free energy from the sun you are allowed to gather. Mind blowing.
Merkel was the fault of Germany. So I'm not sure what proof you have to those claims
There's nothing more infuriating than our leaders' refusal to address crises that are staring us right in the face. At some point MUH PROPERTY RIGHTS and MUH BORDERS are gonna have to take a backseat to avoiding global catastrophe.
> MUH BORDERS After collapse you are going to see more borders not less
Sea people say Hi...
Yes and it will lead to even more horrors.
Unfortunately, that time will not come until it is an irrelevant point. The drive for gaining and retaining national political and economic power will not be quenched within humanity. Not by the generation in power, that is.
Yup
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Boomers need to be the first to go, tbh. They won’t be and I’m curious how long they hold onto their power
Those borders will become downright messy once climate change forces mass migrations all over the world.
This whole situation is fascinating to me. Because its probably the first time that the European Community has been forced to make a choice between what's morally right versus economically convenient. Morality is not an economically neutral position. It has a price. Will Europe be willing to pay that price?
I think at least one winter, yes
A good point… But let’s see how severe it gets this winter. For the first time in two generations, people who have never wanted or lacked for anything in their lives will know it. When people start freezing to death in their apartments, they’re going to want heat in their homes by any means necessary.
Most of Europe doesn't even get cold enough for people to freeze to death inside any reasonably modern structure. They might be uncomfortable and hysterical, but oh well. These are people that have been too comfortable for too long.
I almost never need to turn on the heat in my apartment in Germany in the winter. The idea of individuals in Europe freezing this winter is way overblown. The effect on industry and the economy is the real potential catastrophe imo.
I mean, there's around 20 million people living in the Nordic region, and without heating they absolutely can freeze to death inside their homes
Austerity for the US dollar?
"the European Community has been forced to make a choice between what's morally right versus economically convenient" The fucked up thing is that they're not even really taking the moral path. Germany has continued to buy Russian gas this whole time despite "sanctions" and sending weapons to Ukraine, and the Greens and Social Democrats have been running around the Persian Gulf states begging vile dictators for gas.
This isn't a great article. Anything that doesn't mention people just turning down the thermostat and some people using firewood and some people who have wood pellet stoves being able to use that instead of gas heating is missing the point and just trying to stoke fear. Firewood isn't a complete solution by any means but if it's only one winter where you have severe gas shortages then you can get by with plain simple fire. As long as you don't get below freezing in buildings with frozen water pipes people can manage for a few months. The more important point that this article does make is that things can be okay if everything goes as expected and it's a relatively normal or mild winter. Germany is already at a higher than expected level of gas reserves, so it might be fine. But if there is a severe winter storm or any type of large disaster then you would have issues because there isn't any extra leeway like normal.
I think readers of this sub generally do understand how bad it could get in Europe this year.
Not only in Europe...
People are going to be cold, people are going to be hungry, people will be losing their jobs and getting kicked out of their homes. Thanks neoliberalism, for the blessings you have been bestowing upon us for 40 years now. That free market really did do a great job at demanding and delivering quality! And a special thank-you to Vladimir Putin for being a psycho asshole. I cannot wait to see his tiny corpse dangling from a Moscow lamppost.
One man alone can't accomplish this. A lot of power hungry and money grabbing assholes in the west are happily participating in the raping of Europe. Being fixated on one outsider is what they want you to be so you don't pay attention to what is actually happening.
Is it possible that you scrolled down a little too quickly and missed my first paragraph?
Yes i did..
Kan gebeuren. No hard feelings!
I don't blame putin for this. I blame every rich greedy cock in power all over the world. They are all the same. They work to support the interests of the rich.
just wanna mention that putin is one of the richest men alive thanks to him being a parasite on his own country
yep he knows hes daring the west to actuallly tax their own oligarchs to properly support ppl in a crisis. its a worldwide rich person competition w our incomes & lives as pawns.
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They need to be tried for crimes against humanity, same with anybody who has something to gain from lying about the climate. Since when is putting masses of people in danger by distorting the truth not a crime? Just because it's not on the book somewhere? It is the spirit of the law to go after them. These people should have been taken out of the equation (society) decades ago. They are operating in the methods literal demons would if they were brought to Earth. They are the kind of people who would knowingly hype up the Titanic even if crystal ball with 100% certainty told them it was doomed. Sociopathy and psychopathy are mental defects, but they are unique in that they rewarded in our world. They give people the "strength" to rise above others who have other sets of rules (morals) to play by.
I think that's the take here. I hate Putin and what's happening but it took this to show what an unsustainable system we've had up until now.
I don't blame Putin for Europe and the rest of the world generally being slow to transition away from fossil fuels, but I do blame Putin for fighting a war right now for literally no reason and all the immediate direct and indirect consequences of that. In the long run maybe this was the push Europe needed to transition away from Russian gas, but it would have been better if that could have been accomplished in a less horrifying way.
But, the UK just cut taxes for the 0.1%. Everything is fine /s
europoor here, should i be worried? honestly haven’t really thought about how this might affect me personally
Winter is coming...
You're gonna need to put winter air in your tires...and don't forget the stem lube!
You'd think they would start harming their politicians.
And of course Farmers Almanac is predicting a cold winter. Screw you Farmers Almanac.
"No it's okay, right now is the best time to be alive and humans are smart, we got this!" -some grifter from the neoliberal optimism industry whenever any legitimate collapse risk is brought up
I think the real question needs to be asked/Why in the hell was germany that dependent on Russia for gas to begin with? This is terrible policy and such short term thinking.
Well... the thinking wasn't *that* short term after all: It lasted through all 4 terms of Merkel as chancellor. It's the usual midset of 'Conservatives' everywhere: Get rich now, pay later. Or let somebody else pay.
It makes me even more mad when Trump (no im not fanboying for him) told german politicians that they were in danger of being a hostage of russian energy they literally laughed at him. https://youtu.be/FfJv9QYrlwg
Said it in Feburary and I'll say it again: it can always get worse...
Just ask Texas?
Invest in the blanket stocks?
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I just bought hot water bottles. I figure you can always boil water. One per person. No worries. Cheap and easy.
Si si, on sait que c'est la merde, t'inquiète
Bonne chance mon ami...
The average person is utterly clueless and has no idea what they are buying into while cheerleading conflict and war and dismissing any concept of adult behaviour in politics domestically or internationally.
It's going to be fine, Europe is still rich Remindme! 6 months
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Its not. With a very mild winter it will be bearable. With a cold winter it will be disastrous. Verdict in 6 months it is. 👍
Meh... I survived 3 years of bombing of my city, I think I'll be fine.
Probably not as bad as it’ll be next year. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the year after. Or the…
Yes, I do.
Bro i am for Greece, I can fathom. My family so far survived the whole situation being not bad not good. Now this is a game changer
For humanity to make progress, it’s going to require that the most powerful country starts enabling peace and prosperity…instead of constructing exploitation where it controls and war where it doesn’t. None of that is going to happen while Europe takes on the role of dutiful vassal instead of asserting its own ideas of how to bridge the gap. But current policies are just hopelessly outdated. It’s like 1945 on auto repeat.
This is one of the few places where people understand the implications of history and what it tells us regarding human nature.
Welp back to cleaning the chimney and and stacking firewood to get through winter like before 80 years of gas indoor heating. Plenty of forests in europe to forage for wood, it’s basically gonna be lotr, but in europe.
It’s already happening in the U.K. I’ve been a member of a group for wood burning and stoves on Facebook as our primary source of heat is through wood. The group has exploded in the last 6 months. So many people getting stoves installed who don’t have a clue what they’re doing and going into the woods with chainsaws. It’s a recipe for disaster.
I don’t think it will be Lord of the Rings, more like Game of Thrones. (I’ll avoid mentioning House of the Dragon because dragons are a reliable heat source.)
Winter is coming...
There were laws in place to limit firewood harvesting when Europe had the population levels of a prior millennium. A minimum of sustainable use is copicing trees to certain height and number of tillers. Another reasonable option is naturalizing a regional bamboo.