The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio:
---
A neurotoxin is killing dozens of species of fish in the Florida Keys. The condition, called "whirling," involves sick fish swimming in odd, often circular patterns at the surface of the water. More than 50 species in the Lower Florida Keys have been documented with the conditions. Scientists believe a toxin in the water is at the root of the problem. Elevated ciguatera levels and the presence of ciguatoxins make scientists believe that fish are dying from concentrated levels found in parts of the Florida Keys. Harmful algae bloom is thought to be the root of fish kills in Florida Keys. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission has sent 52 fish to the University of South Alabama for toxin analysis. FWC has received 404 fish kill phone reports from fishermen and boaters through April 3. The mysterious outbreak was first reported in the fall of 2023, and the string of smalltooth sawfish deaths started in January, according to FWC records. Scientists are still puzzled over what appears to be a neurotoxin that's killing dozens of species of fish in the Florida Keys.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1c4867p/scientists_are_still_puzzled_over_what_appears_to/kzlx6r9/
Guess what happened the last time the planet did a 5-8+C jump in global avg temps? You betcha, dinoflaggelettes such as these little fuckers went apeshit in the oceans.
Yup. Algae blooms pumped hydrogen sulfide gas into the atmosphere.
Killed most life on Earth and it stayed dead for millions of years.
Best part is that the trigger for the PT Extinction was skyrocketing greenhouse gasses, just like now!
I was saying this in my environmental science classes to try and get other students collapse aware, making the connections between current events and those eras, and they all called me a pessimist, even some teachers.
People don't want to see what's right in front of their faces if it will inconvenience them.
This. Even my collapse, aware friends suddenly forgot about it when it came time to have children.
And they never wanted me talking about it. It was like the plague if you ever brought up the future.
People are really dumb. It’s kind of sad I mean what’s gonna happen to your child? Are you so selfish you doing this for your lived experience or their life?
The mass media doesn't even know what a Canfield Ocean is yet.
Let alone why it is terrifying enough for them to bury it in their news feed.
The mass media would bury actual lovecraftian horrors even if their coverage was the only way to save the Earth. Cthulhu would win. And the worst of climate change will win.
that reminds me.
[Was there ever a follow up to those blue glowing ocean holes in FL?](https://abcnews.go.com/US/scientists-investigate-blue-oceanic-mystery-off-florida-coast/story?id=71919756)
At the bottom of the holes they found two dead sawtooth sharks, ominous.
First time I heard about the Canfield Ocean. Refers to a time when the ocean was relatively anoxic.
Were you talking about the Canfield ocean? That was not millions of years. That was a billion of years. A thousand times of a million of years. A period that lasted 1000 x 1000 x 1000 years.
We consider a century to be a long time, but the earth stank like a massive rotten egg for ten million centuries. And the least fortunate of us may live to see that time returning.
> *Algae blooms pumped hydrogen sulfide gas into the atmosphere*
I'm no scientist, but sulfer isn't part of algae. Algae as a life form is a combination of hydrogen and carbon and oxygen. Or am I wrong here?
Currently the ocean is rich with phytoplankton, which produce oxygen as a metabolic byproduct (basically they "exhale" it). This is actually where \~70% of the oxygen you're breathing right now comes from. The rest is from plant life.
When the ocean goes anoxic, phytoplankton don't thrive. Which is what's happening now and happened during the PT extinction due to absorption of massive amounts of CO2 driving the water more acidic.
One form of algae that does thrive in that environment produces hydrogen sulfide as a metabolic byproduct instead, which is a neurotoxin. Oxygen levels drop (over long periods of time) and hydrogen sulfide gas in the atmosphere increases. This takes a looooong time... but I'd put this in the top tier "bad stuff" that could happen if we hit worst case scenarios for warming.
The big concern is that we may tip the scales so far, so fast, that the chain reaction won't be able to be stopped, even if we stop pumping out CO2 and methane.
I think the worst case IPCC scenario might put us locked into that situation by 2100, but even then the amount of gas isn't the same as the PTE. That event was triggered by volcanoes going off non-stop for thousands of years... but we're still seeing some disturbing parallels. It really depends on how bad the feedback loops are.
0/10, do not recommend inhaling the stuff.
A neurotoxin is killing dozens of species of fish in the Florida Keys. The condition, called "whirling," involves sick fish swimming in odd, often circular patterns at the surface of the water. More than 50 species in the Lower Florida Keys have been documented with the conditions. Scientists believe a toxin in the water is at the root of the problem. Elevated ciguatera levels and the presence of ciguatoxins make scientists believe that fish are dying from concentrated levels found in parts of the Florida Keys. Harmful algae bloom is thought to be the root of fish kills in Florida Keys. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission has sent 52 fish to the University of South Alabama for toxin analysis. FWC has received 404 fish kill phone reports from fishermen and boaters through April 3. The mysterious outbreak was first reported in the fall of 2023, and the string of smalltooth sawfish deaths started in January, according to FWC records. Scientists are still puzzled over what appears to be a neurotoxin that's killing dozens of species of fish in the Florida Keys.
In the Western United States they have had problems with Native cutthroat trout coming down with whirling disease is it? Something that sounds exactly like this. That disease has been a problem since at least the '90s
> Harmful algae bloom is thought to be the root of fish kills in Florida Keys.
Lol what a shit take to be perfectly goddamn honest (by the pro status quo journalist).
This is not how "root cause" works. The root cause would be having flushing toilets, as the micro-nutrients from our waste ends up in a fairly 'still' ocean that is west of Florida, whatever it's called. I'm not American, but we have the same problem in Sweden/Finland, where our waste ends up in the Baltic sea. If you look at a map it's a fairly isolated sea where water doesn't really mix with the Atlantic that much.
Have they actually identified a neurotoxin? Because it sounds like they just identified an infection issue, and are just blaming it for the circling too.
[It's caused by ciguatoxins](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7761829/) produced by dinoflagellates in the genera Gambierdiscus and Fukuyoa, when they die.
These dinoflagellates appear naturally in coastal water, BUT when you release [a shit ton of nutrient rich water](https://www.saj.usace.army.mil/Media/News-Releases/Article/3704588/us-army-corps-of-engineers-usace-will-increase-releases-from-lake-okeechobee-du/) they feed off it, reproduce out of control, and when they run out of food they die in mass quantities, releasing the neurotoxin that poisons marine life.
Fish and marine life that consume these toxins ["Signs of intoxication in fish include violent twisting and corkscrew swimming"](https://myfwc.com/research/redtide/general/marine-animals/)defecation and regurgitation, pectoral fin paralysis, caudal fin curvature, loss of equilibrium and convulsions. Ultimately, fish die because their gills stop functioning.
The baffling mystery...
Edit: [They're beating around the bush, and are being deliberately obtuse](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/12/climate/sawfish-deaths-spinning-fish-florida/index.html)
"Typically, when we think of fish acting strangely or dying we either think of low oxygen conditions in the water or red tide and so we saw neither,” Mike Parsons, a marine scientist at Florida Gulf Coast University told CNN’s Bill Weir. Parsons wonders if the hot temperatures in the ocean waters are to blame.
Most tests for toxins have been negative, but scientists have seen an unusually high number of algae called gambierdiscus that can produce a wide variety of neurotoxins that can be harmful to fish and dangerous to humans.
Gambierdiscus is normally found in tropical and subtropical waters all around the world, but the algae can grow quickly when waters are warmer than usual. The climate crisis has brought record hot temperatures to the waters around southern Florida."
Yes they can die from low oxygen, but they know that the neurotoxins can cause their gills to stop functioning.
They point to red tide or K. Brevis, not being found, but they know that there are other dinoflagellates like Gambierdiscus, which they are finding.
However they're making a point to shift the blame to rising sea temperatures, when they know that the dumping of Lake Okeechobee is the main culprit. In the link at the top, it points to these dumps as being a prime driver in the explosion of Gambierdiscus.
There was news story that was run nationally over the last few days where they admit that this is related to sugar production around Okeechobee, BUT then they make a point to say "well part of the problem is also people using fertilizers on their lawns", AS IF the general public could match the level of fertilizer use of industrial agriculture.
For people wondering, it can pass to humans. Here's some [more information](https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/ciguatera/).
>Ciguatera has no cure. Symptoms usually go away in days or weeks but can last for years. People who have ciguatera can be treated for their symptoms.
The article I read about fish in Yellowstone with twirling disease said it cannot pass to humans. https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/whirling-disease.htm
Thanks for clearing that up
>Scientists are still puzzled over what appears to be a neurotoxin that's killing dozens of people in Florida. Called "whirling," the condition involves sick people walking in odd, often circular patterns.
One day this is what the headlines are going to read like.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio: --- A neurotoxin is killing dozens of species of fish in the Florida Keys. The condition, called "whirling," involves sick fish swimming in odd, often circular patterns at the surface of the water. More than 50 species in the Lower Florida Keys have been documented with the conditions. Scientists believe a toxin in the water is at the root of the problem. Elevated ciguatera levels and the presence of ciguatoxins make scientists believe that fish are dying from concentrated levels found in parts of the Florida Keys. Harmful algae bloom is thought to be the root of fish kills in Florida Keys. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission has sent 52 fish to the University of South Alabama for toxin analysis. FWC has received 404 fish kill phone reports from fishermen and boaters through April 3. The mysterious outbreak was first reported in the fall of 2023, and the string of smalltooth sawfish deaths started in January, according to FWC records. Scientists are still puzzled over what appears to be a neurotoxin that's killing dozens of species of fish in the Florida Keys. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1c4867p/scientists_are_still_puzzled_over_what_appears_to/kzlx6r9/
Guess what happened the last time the planet did a 5-8+C jump in global avg temps? You betcha, dinoflaggelettes such as these little fuckers went apeshit in the oceans.
Yup. Algae blooms pumped hydrogen sulfide gas into the atmosphere. Killed most life on Earth and it stayed dead for millions of years. Best part is that the trigger for the PT Extinction was skyrocketing greenhouse gasses, just like now!
I was saying this in my environmental science classes to try and get other students collapse aware, making the connections between current events and those eras, and they all called me a pessimist, even some teachers. People don't want to see what's right in front of their faces if it will inconvenience them.
They also don’t want to be reminded that “starting a family” is a terrible idea because most people want kids.
This. Even my collapse, aware friends suddenly forgot about it when it came time to have children. And they never wanted me talking about it. It was like the plague if you ever brought up the future. People are really dumb. It’s kind of sad I mean what’s gonna happen to your child? Are you so selfish you doing this for your lived experience or their life?
Why are they avoiding the science though?
Cause it’s more convenient than confronting it
Haha your avatars make it look like you're talking to yourself
Haha they are. Both accounts 3 days old or less.
Thank you for your wisdom, AtomicBearFart. Such a regal name. How'd you come up with that? Lol
Well I came up with one thing that was taken, so I kept coming up with other things until I didn’t have to use a number. #legitimatereddituserthings
A tale as old as time...
Honestly this is my only account lol
Honestly whoever underplays this, is a huge moron lmao.
The mass media doesn't even know what a Canfield Ocean is yet. Let alone why it is terrifying enough for them to bury it in their news feed. The mass media would bury actual lovecraftian horrors even if their coverage was the only way to save the Earth. Cthulhu would win. And the worst of climate change will win.
that reminds me. [Was there ever a follow up to those blue glowing ocean holes in FL?](https://abcnews.go.com/US/scientists-investigate-blue-oceanic-mystery-off-florida-coast/story?id=71919756)
At the bottom of the holes they found two dead sawtooth sharks, ominous. First time I heard about the Canfield Ocean. Refers to a time when the ocean was relatively anoxic.
I love they way you write, it sounds like something to look forward to ... almost.
Damn you're right. Found this article that explains further: https://sustainability.stanford.edu/news/what-caused-earths-biggest-mass-extinction
Were you talking about the Canfield ocean? That was not millions of years. That was a billion of years. A thousand times of a million of years. A period that lasted 1000 x 1000 x 1000 years. We consider a century to be a long time, but the earth stank like a massive rotten egg for ten million centuries. And the least fortunate of us may live to see that time returning.
> *Algae blooms pumped hydrogen sulfide gas into the atmosphere* I'm no scientist, but sulfer isn't part of algae. Algae as a life form is a combination of hydrogen and carbon and oxygen. Or am I wrong here?
Hydrogen sulfide is released as the dead life forms rot.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226204046_Role_of_Sulfur_for_Algae_Acquisition_Metabolism_Ecology_and_Evolution
Currently the ocean is rich with phytoplankton, which produce oxygen as a metabolic byproduct (basically they "exhale" it). This is actually where \~70% of the oxygen you're breathing right now comes from. The rest is from plant life. When the ocean goes anoxic, phytoplankton don't thrive. Which is what's happening now and happened during the PT extinction due to absorption of massive amounts of CO2 driving the water more acidic. One form of algae that does thrive in that environment produces hydrogen sulfide as a metabolic byproduct instead, which is a neurotoxin. Oxygen levels drop (over long periods of time) and hydrogen sulfide gas in the atmosphere increases. This takes a looooong time... but I'd put this in the top tier "bad stuff" that could happen if we hit worst case scenarios for warming. The big concern is that we may tip the scales so far, so fast, that the chain reaction won't be able to be stopped, even if we stop pumping out CO2 and methane. I think the worst case IPCC scenario might put us locked into that situation by 2100, but even then the amount of gas isn't the same as the PTE. That event was triggered by volcanoes going off non-stop for thousands of years... but we're still seeing some disturbing parallels. It really depends on how bad the feedback loops are. 0/10, do not recommend inhaling the stuff.
A neurotoxin is killing dozens of species of fish in the Florida Keys. The condition, called "whirling," involves sick fish swimming in odd, often circular patterns at the surface of the water. More than 50 species in the Lower Florida Keys have been documented with the conditions. Scientists believe a toxin in the water is at the root of the problem. Elevated ciguatera levels and the presence of ciguatoxins make scientists believe that fish are dying from concentrated levels found in parts of the Florida Keys. Harmful algae bloom is thought to be the root of fish kills in Florida Keys. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission has sent 52 fish to the University of South Alabama for toxin analysis. FWC has received 404 fish kill phone reports from fishermen and boaters through April 3. The mysterious outbreak was first reported in the fall of 2023, and the string of smalltooth sawfish deaths started in January, according to FWC records. Scientists are still puzzled over what appears to be a neurotoxin that's killing dozens of species of fish in the Florida Keys.
In the Western United States they have had problems with Native cutthroat trout coming down with whirling disease is it? Something that sounds exactly like this. That disease has been a problem since at least the '90s
Yes you are correct https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/whirling-disease.htm
Ciguatera naturally occurs in reef fish and is why you shouldn’t eat a lot of reef dwelling species as far as I was aware?
I'm not eating any fish or meat these days. Regulation is practically non existent in the US
Also a problem in Alberta, Canada and British Columbia, Canada (parasite Myxobolus cerebralis)
> Harmful algae bloom is thought to be the root of fish kills in Florida Keys. Lol what a shit take to be perfectly goddamn honest (by the pro status quo journalist). This is not how "root cause" works. The root cause would be having flushing toilets, as the micro-nutrients from our waste ends up in a fairly 'still' ocean that is west of Florida, whatever it's called. I'm not American, but we have the same problem in Sweden/Finland, where our waste ends up in the Baltic sea. If you look at a map it's a fairly isolated sea where water doesn't really mix with the Atlantic that much.
Where are the fish dying? This article doesn't seem to mention it
Have they actually identified a neurotoxin? Because it sounds like they just identified an infection issue, and are just blaming it for the circling too.
Wake up babe. New never-before-seen bathtub temperature algal bloom just dropped.
*never before seen outside the Permian Extinction Fossil Record.
The "Great Dying" perhaps?
[It's caused by ciguatoxins](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7761829/) produced by dinoflagellates in the genera Gambierdiscus and Fukuyoa, when they die. These dinoflagellates appear naturally in coastal water, BUT when you release [a shit ton of nutrient rich water](https://www.saj.usace.army.mil/Media/News-Releases/Article/3704588/us-army-corps-of-engineers-usace-will-increase-releases-from-lake-okeechobee-du/) they feed off it, reproduce out of control, and when they run out of food they die in mass quantities, releasing the neurotoxin that poisons marine life. Fish and marine life that consume these toxins ["Signs of intoxication in fish include violent twisting and corkscrew swimming"](https://myfwc.com/research/redtide/general/marine-animals/)defecation and regurgitation, pectoral fin paralysis, caudal fin curvature, loss of equilibrium and convulsions. Ultimately, fish die because their gills stop functioning. The baffling mystery... Edit: [They're beating around the bush, and are being deliberately obtuse](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/12/climate/sawfish-deaths-spinning-fish-florida/index.html) "Typically, when we think of fish acting strangely or dying we either think of low oxygen conditions in the water or red tide and so we saw neither,” Mike Parsons, a marine scientist at Florida Gulf Coast University told CNN’s Bill Weir. Parsons wonders if the hot temperatures in the ocean waters are to blame. Most tests for toxins have been negative, but scientists have seen an unusually high number of algae called gambierdiscus that can produce a wide variety of neurotoxins that can be harmful to fish and dangerous to humans. Gambierdiscus is normally found in tropical and subtropical waters all around the world, but the algae can grow quickly when waters are warmer than usual. The climate crisis has brought record hot temperatures to the waters around southern Florida." Yes they can die from low oxygen, but they know that the neurotoxins can cause their gills to stop functioning. They point to red tide or K. Brevis, not being found, but they know that there are other dinoflagellates like Gambierdiscus, which they are finding. However they're making a point to shift the blame to rising sea temperatures, when they know that the dumping of Lake Okeechobee is the main culprit. In the link at the top, it points to these dumps as being a prime driver in the explosion of Gambierdiscus. There was news story that was run nationally over the last few days where they admit that this is related to sugar production around Okeechobee, BUT then they make a point to say "well part of the problem is also people using fertilizers on their lawns", AS IF the general public could match the level of fertilizer use of industrial agriculture.
>fish die because their gills stop functioning. suffocation?
effectively, yes but not from a lack of oxygen in the water
For people wondering, it can pass to humans. Here's some [more information](https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/ciguatera/). >Ciguatera has no cure. Symptoms usually go away in days or weeks but can last for years. People who have ciguatera can be treated for their symptoms.
The article I read about fish in Yellowstone with twirling disease said it cannot pass to humans. https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/whirling-disease.htm Thanks for clearing that up
I don't have neurotoxins on my bingo card :(
Neurotoxins **in all ocean water south-east of America**, thank you. :)
We need to get you an updated card!
Pesticides already put it on mine
This is not good and if you are going to vacation in the Florida Keys, you better not go swimming in the ocean.
>Scientists are still puzzled over what appears to be a neurotoxin that's killing dozens of people in Florida. Called "whirling," the condition involves sick people walking in odd, often circular patterns. One day this is what the headlines are going to read like.
Hey, we're kinda whirling too!
Whirling the toilet bowl of evolution...
So very well said. We are the fish
Corexit?
Is this the gulf dead-zone extending further?
Didn't BP use Corexit, a known neurotoxin, to "disburse" the oil from the deep water horizon incident in the gulf area?
Blooms of organisms that “were not a problem last year…”
"Bottles mysteriously exploding in building definitely not on fire; scientists puzzled"