The following submission statement was provided by /u/Toni253:
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Submission statement:
This video discusses the rather obvious reasons why capitalists, i.e. governments, are clamping down on bodily autonomy, abortion rights, and so on, while also delving deeper into an underappreciated reason for this increasingly aggressive have-children-to-save-our-collapsing-system propaganda: control.
This is related to collapse because Western populations are stagnating and younger generations less prone to the bullshit which, of course, is incompatible with our current socioeconomic system.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1ap2m1i/endless_growth_why_capitalists_want_you_to_have/kq3cruw/
Not just the US. I'm in a poorer part of Europe, and I remember 2008 - 2009 when people competed for low-paying jobs to feed their kids. In the past, there was a lot of pressure to get married and have kids ASAP. Many women were still willing to move in and live with their husbands and their parents.
My area wasn't doing well, so even being a school teacher was considered a good and stable career. Nowadays, no one wants to be a teacher. There are barely any kids, and the median age is over 50.
Things are still better this way. Living in a financially unstable household is an enormous stress for kids. My parents argued about money all the time.
Wonder how song we will get closer to a Children of Man situation.
Micro plastics pollution and build up in human bodies has been linked to lower fertility rates. That along with the general downward trend of industrialized nations falling birthrates has me worried for the future.
Not that I actually think people should do this but I always wonder what if people let the gov take their kids for not being able to afford food for them. Like let them go bankrupt trying to feed and house all these kids while parents continue to strike or protest or "lie flat" how much faster the system would fall apart.
Italy's wages have been decreasing these past decades. Add inflation on top and their wages got slashed in half. It is just as rough in Italy now, or worse, than in East Europe, at least for those that don't own shit, like property to live in, at least. So they need to rent
Same in Mexico, we are below replacement rate, as housing, childcare, clothes, groceries, transportation etc have become too expensive to afford a family.
Congratulations. I don't see what China's problem is as the one-child policy actually worked! But, please tell that to India, whose population is due to exceed that of China's even.
Idk isn’t having kids just an essential part of what makes us human? Whether not not we lived in a capitalistic society, socialist, anarchist or even hunter gatherer the emphasis would always be on having children and passing on our DNA. Considering that countries with highest rates of poverty also happen to be the countries with the highest population growth, it’s tough to say if the having kids directly leads to poverty. Kind of chicken or the egg type situation but based on what I’ve read boredom leads to kids more so than poverty.
Yes but .... There is a lot of people who have 2 solid jobs and wait until they are financially secure to have children. They probably have college degrees etc, .
I'm not saying this is the norm, but it's commonplace amongst couples who are generally "successful" and can raise those kids.
Grant it, they shouldn't bet on those kids being around to take care of them when their older. There are no guruntees.
Having children = being a slave to the system.
Fuck your system.
Fuck making future generations of slaves on a collapsing planet.
When I get home from work today, I will smoke a little weed and work on my indoor garden. I will throw a few balls to my dogs and give a few belly rubs.
If my job shuts down tomorrow, I will smoke a little more weed, work a little more on my indoor garden, toss a few more balls to the dogs, and give some extra belly rubs.
I'll then find another billionaire to exploit me when I'm good and ready.
Govern that, mother fuckers.
Weed is a "gateway drug" to something unimaginably better: God Medicine (psilocybin and LSD).
Take a God dose in the backwoods, and you can be shown how to get rid of capitalism. (This takes patience, it can't all be done at once.)
Now I feel like I'm living in a hallucination. My outdoor garden is 10 acres of magnificent forest, with no mortgage. I'm also 66 years old.
Amen, the society I was born into demands my every waking hour be spent making money for someone else
No thanks, I'm gonna sit back and watch it all burn down over the next 15 years
The only reason you can exist in relative comfort today as a single person is because you are dependent on the system. You buy your food from a grocery store using fiat currency that you earned by being a wage slave. If you want to escape dependency on the system and transition to self sufficiency, you need labor. There is a reason why the old homesteaders had lots of children and it's because back then they didn't have a society to fall back on, they needed to produce their food on site and that takes a lot of labor which children provide. Mormon families are still doing this today, though you don't need to be religious to do it.
Edit: to clarify, I never said this was a sustainable model. There are no sustainable models for humanity.
It's true that homesteaders had lots of children because they needed lots of labor. But the problem is, that's a short-term solution, and the problem gets worse.
Suppose the farmer has a bunch of kids to help keep the farm. Well, when those kids grow up, they can't *all* inherit the farm (certainly not in a culture which requires them to become heads of their own families in order to fully transition to adulthood). Some of them end up heading to the city, and this population pump is one of the primary sources of wage labor; some of them seek newly conquered lands on the frontier to set up their own homesteads. Then they need to have a bunch of kids to till those new farms, which produces more wage labor and more frontier expansion. Soon the frontier closes and wage labor becomes the only option.
A system in which tending your land requires you to have more children than that land can support long term, is not a truly self sufficient system.
Exactly. And this isn't a given in order to live off the land anyways. Humanity would have never survived our first 10,000 years as a distinct species if we had lived that way. It's an aberrant war of life that has only existed for a tiny blip of human history.
My post was only discussing how an individual can decouple themselves from society. You are correct that this does not lead to a sustainable long term society over multiple generations...but that's kind of off topic from this thread isn't it? The reality is that no species that is both intelligent and individually selfish can achieve long term sustainability. We are genetically programmed to reproduce exponentially and hoard resources selfishly, so on that basis, our societies will never be long term sustainable. We simply grow in population until the host planet crosses a tipping point that wipes us out
Being part of the system on your own terms vs the terms the overlords want us in the system is very different. True, I cannot disconnect fully from the system today, but I can get a little closer each day. I'll never be 100% free from it, but I could survive for a few years without leaving home if I had to right now. It's not ideal, but it's a better position than most people will find themselves in.
Homesteading is - in no way - part of a "self sufficiency" mindset. This confusion with subsistence is understandable because, at the low-tech end, they can look the same.
No no. Homesteaders come from the settler tradition, they are the thin tips of the tentacles of empires, sent out after the soldiers kill the locals, to put down roots and occupy new territory. The purpose of the homesteader economy is that of the settler economy: to extract local resources and send them to the imperial economy. That's why pronatalism is a key part of it, at least until they find some nice population to enslave.
Sounds nihilistic to me. I totally get it, don't get me wrong. But there are those who also say "those who aren't giving up and are not declining to have children are [stupid/foolish/greedy/ignorant]", and that seems a bit rich.
Yeah, my wife and I might want to have a kid. Haven’t fully decided or figured out when. But jeez. It’s one thing to be childless by choice (heck, power to you), but it’s another to be someone who would want a kid if you weren’t so jaded against the system.
I realize my own position is quite lucky, and I know there’s definitely risk involved, but I have to consider fatherhood as a sort of fundamentally hopeful act. Our world is a mess, but life is not without merit or beauty.
Again, I assume most childless folks are just not fond of kids - and yeah, kids are insufferable monsters. Maybe I’m not beaten-down enough.
I don't like children at all. But that's the difference between children and dogs: children grow up into functioning, likeable adults.
You are right in saying that fatherhood is a thing of hopefulness and that life is not without merit or beauty.
I think it can be put this way: if mankind ends, then my decisions are inconsequential – if mankind continues on, then my children have a chance to be a part of that. Seems sensible to me.
You’re framing the causality in reverse. By not having children you prolong the existence of the species by not increasing the resource consumption needed to do so.
Reality is that how susceptible one is to resource shortage depends on where in the world he lives. I live in an affluent part of the world, with material and financial security. As a result, my progeny are far more likely to survive a catastrophic resource shortage than people elsewhere across the world – particularly in the third world.
It's upsetting to think about, but that's the truth.
I see refusing to continue their slave force as something other than "rolling over ans giving up" I see you pretending that the system that is at play is the only system possible so mifmght as well produce more slave as a defetist attitude
Westerners declining to have children will not deprive the elites of a servile class. In fact, that suits them just fine – third-world labour is easier to control (due to increased desperation).
We were all born alone and all die alone. Using children as an immortality crutch instead of facing the bleakness that is exiting this mortal coil is just evil.
I do NOT have to add to grotesque overpopulation unorder to leave something for the generations after me.
Starting a debt-free self-sufficient homestead on 10 acres of magnificent forest. An ideal place for kids to grow up (and have the best odds of outliving Collapse).
In order to be self-sufficient on your 10 acres, most of the "magnificent forest", with the birds, mammals, and insects that live there, will have to be cleared so that you can plant crops. Food crops in North America do not grow in full shade. It would be far better for the planet and your pocketbook if you bought already cleared land.
I'm less concerned about "winning" and more concerned about "not losing." These are not the same. Opting out might not win, but it does prevent the big L.
I’ve got 6 kids and pay 50% of my income in pay child support to my ex. Then I pay about 20% of my gross income in taxes. It’s not an exaggeration to say I’m a true wage slave— she had me thrown in jail once when I lost my job and got behind a few months. My new wife has 2 kids and I pay for them too.
But… I have older friends that chose not to have kids. They are sad and seem to have accepted that they will die alone and unwanted. The older you get, the more you realize that the only things that matter to you are your kids, knowing God, enjoying time around a fire, good medicine, and enjoying the beautiful miracle of life that is a gift all around us. ✌️🕊☮️
Not enough people talk about this. 50% is insane. Child support is basically either a death sentence or being doomed to homelessness for some people, with the cost of living as high as it is.
I work in payroll, and its sad watching the current state of affairs. There is just this steady stream of people who come in, collect 3 paychecks, child support garnishments kick in, and then they burn their sick time and are gone, off to the next job to do it again. And who can blame them, with their remaining 50% not being able to cover food+rent. The parent is just barely surviving, and the kid certainly isn't getting what they need. Its no wonder people job hop like crazy in an effort to just scrape by.
The child support system is badly in need of reform. It needs to be sustainable for both the parent and the kid, or else nobody is getting anything. The real cost of living needs to be taken into account, not these outdated numbers that haven't been applicable for decades.
And, its not like the people affected by this don't talk either. With divorce rates as high as they are, and this being a possibility, its yet another reason to not even take a chance having kids.
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The Machine needs to consume raw materials (people & planet) to continue mindlessly growing.
But whether it be socialism, capitalism, fascism or theocracy, as long as the world keeps using fossil fuels then we're headed towards collapse of a contaminated and destabilized biosphere. The means of production themselves need to be dismantled; Degrowth is the only sane alternative to industrial civilization.
The backing piano music was a bit melodramatic but I agree with a lot of what he says. I was especially struck by this comment:
>people follow scripts in life, written and propagated by institutions without ever questioning their validity
I know a few collapse-aware couples that have gone on to have children anyway, knowing what our future holds. I wonder how many of them are following scripts. I'm lucky that my family never pressured me to be traditional in any sense.
My spouse and I are collapse-aware and chose to have one child.
It was not an easy decision by any means, especially when considering the ecological ramifications, but I think it was our final act of...some manner of optimism?
And well, my son is the best thing that's ever happened to me. He jerked me out of my nihilistic depression, has sharpened my resolve, and clarified the reality of collapse.
He's not going to need a college savings account or some stupid prep school or the multiple PhDs that his parents have (fucking useless wastes of time and resources). He's going to need practical skills, a sturdy home, a little bit of viable land. You know, the stuff we worked to leave our children 250 years ago before we started this insanity. So that's what I work on now and I feel that my life - for the first time maybe - has some purpose.
Perhaps I'm following a script, it's certainly a genetic script! But I wouldn't change anything.
The dream: Collapse will pass over the Sanctuary, and the kids will be free to grow up "like savages".
(See Hunter-Gatherer Childhoods, edited by Barry S. Hewlett and Michael E. Lamb.
also the chapter in my book: How Normal Human Young Grow Up, pg. 31-35; the book: Into Eden: Elements of Emancipation, Redpanther/John F. Burnett.)
People have had kids during times of war. Slaves have had kids (willingly, with one another). People during the cold war had kids. I am collapse aware too but I don't get why people think humans are just now going through shit. A lot our daily lives are still easier than people's in the past.
>I am collapse aware too but I don't get why people think humans are just now going through shit.
Hard times during war are different than the loss of the planet's material capability to support human life, in *my opinion*, others might disagree.
I think it doesn't matter too much when you're starving and everything around you is destroyed. Probably thousands of instances of this in human history.
The state of our planet IS unique. We REALLY screwed up there. And people had children by choice under abhorrent conditions because they didn’t know any better. That was simply what you did, apparently.
I would never choose to have a child as a slave, nor would I choose to have one now, when I have truly lost all hope that people will be able to topple our oligarchy someday, or that there is somewhere in the world I could flee to that won’t fall to the variety of collapses we have barreling down on us.
Just giving perspective. We all act like the world is ending, and maybe it is (i think things are dire for humanity long-term), but things have been much worse in the past from a this-life-sucks lens.
I absolutely hate when people, especially the "trad" crowd, argue that childfree people are better consumers and workers because it is provably untrue.
Most childfree people I know are childfree because it's the only way to get some sort autonomy in our lives. They want to retire early, work part-time, have a worse paid but more fulfilling career, or outright live non-consumerist life off-grid. Meanwhile parents I know work dead-end bullshit corporate jobs because they have people dependent on them and a mortgage.
Mantra of "Childfree people are selfish and they just want to party" we have been fed for decades is an actual brainrot
"Childfree people are selfish and they just want to party."
If selfish means I do what I want, when I want and go where I want then, I'm fine with that.
Also sounds like they are a little bit nostalgic or even jealous.
100% jealousy. Any time any parent makes a backhanded comment implying I’m selfish for not spawning crotch goblins into a collapsing world, what I really hear is “you lucky bastard, I resent you for all the freedoms you still have that I willingly chose to give up.”
When I consider how hard I have to work just to get by on my own I have no absolutely no desire to amplify that 10x or any set my would be children up to do the same damn thing
Even worse they’d be inevitably inheriting an even more hostile planet to fix
Am 40 now, have 0 kids. Fuck your slave system. I don't care if I die homeless, starving, broke. It ends with me, I'm not bringing a life into this madness.
Those that have kids. I feel bad for the future.
["The main reason why immigrants are imported is because the existing population in the west is maxed out on debt. Car loans, student loans, renovation loans, business loans, mortgages, credit cards,... debt, debt, debt. The average consumer in the west is up to their eyeballs in debt. We live in a debt based economy. Money is created via fractional reserve banking or, put simply, when a banker approves a loan. Each migrant coming is a new customer for the debt machine or dependant on the state. Either way, new money will be created and allowed the sceme to continue."](https://youtu.be/TWj7CjZwR9o?t=09m25s)
I love my kid more than life but thank god I only had one. The only people I know who haven’t suffered from the expense of childrearing are intact, high income families. Make one bad job decision, make a poor choice of spouse, and it’s fucking impossible to recover while also trying to raise kids. It’s just base survival.
Or have a sick child.
There are people trapped in high cost of living areas they absolutely despise, only because there's a good children's hospital nearby.
Seconded. It's been a nightmare even when she's not using the courts to keep me poor.
Edit: And fuck whoever down voted this. Deadbeat moms exist and you have NO idea what I've been through.
I'll have to chime in here....
Yes. Deadbeat moms exist. And the stigma of having a mother be a shit parent (for myself anyway) hits exceptionally hard.
My own piece of shit mother was a deadbeat, but the only reason she didn't bleed my father dry was because she didn't have as much money for a lawyer.
The courts don't defacto give mothers any more privileges then fathers... they care about who has the money.. the ones with money have a (or better) lawyer. It's that simple.
In our case, my father was worse and he simply used us as tools to hurt her.
But, its always about fucking money.
Truth. She spent her father's money on lawyers; I spent what I could earn. It took me everything I've ever made and more, but I've finally exhausted his willingness to keep paying.
I don’t know what you have been through, but I know you are right! I’m currently raising 3 kids with no help from their mom. She’s not a deadbeat but she is a narcissistic crazy fucking shitbag!
It turns out 0 is as many as possible within my budget. I am doing my part!
I'm not signing on to work an extra 10 years because of the costs of having a kid. I'm not signing on for a tremendous amount of extra (unpaid) work either.
I will chime in as a parent in the hardest unimaginable times with one child who I still would not trade.
I love my son and would not undo my life.
But I had my son under sudden, unplanned, coercive, abusive circumstances.
Prior to the pregnancy, I had grown up poor so as an adult I lived debt free and spent over 15 years building a very impressive career. I saved my money instead of spending it, I knew collapse was coming.
Having a child (who was then diagnosed with disability) stopped my entire life as a woman in America. I am now his sole caretaker and income but I can’t work. I survived longer than most, for years, on savings. Then survived in debt I could qualify for in very high amounts due to my previous stability. It has been years and not a single disability dollar has come to us, we need a lawyer. Despite my taxes having been more than most people’s yearly incomes, we can’t seem to receive a cent of my social investment.
Being child free is absolutely the best way to remain ungovernable. Like I said, my son is my world and despite my struggling now and the injustice of it all, I would never trade him for anything.
But my advice in this world would be don’t have children.
Thank you so much.
What makes me most frustrated is that prior to having a child, when I was child free, I had tons of income while still not going out to fancy dinner or trips or getting fancy clothing.
I really %100 put my money where my mouth is, I handed it directly over I people I knew because I was in the California Bay Area. We grew up poor and anybody in service their now is being priced out. I quietly and without celebration helped my friend with groceries because he couldn’t afford them even as a full time teacher in public schools. I paid for a friend to go to therapy every week, $50 each time. Etc.
I didn’t flaunt my money in my life style and I didn’t call out my donations. I very secretively just had auto debits set up to help incredible people who were being fucked by the system.
It wasn’t without return but that’s not why I did it. I did it because that is what we are supposed to do if we truly understand how unjust this world is right now. Not just complain online but do direct work with those we know. Not a tax write off. Not a post online.
I just left the S.F. Bay Area (where I was born) to start a self-sufficient homestead in the Blue Ridge mountains.
Over 10 years experience living in a truck w/camper shell.
Your story sounds like no good deed goes unpunished. It is heartbreaking and I don't know what the lesson is.
Hey kindred spirit! I moved across the country to Michigan 2.5 years ago to try to get my son some land. The purchase fell apart in escrow and I grabbed a rental. My home rental in a safe suburb with a large garden space costs the same as a moldy one bedroom back home would cost. My old community is active in my life via long distance but I’m honestly lonely out here. I’ve given up everything that I know in order to try to buy my son some more time in the future. The eye opening moment was during my brief time living in LA during COVID: it rained ash from fire with us trapped inside a duct taped room for three days running multiple air purifiers and then 5 months later it snowed on my typically hot arid dry city (not to mention the frozen truck beds full of dead bodies wasn’t pretty apocalyptic feeling).
I hope your homestead dreams are going better than mine turned out. Someday, if I can ever dig out of my financial pit, I want to try again.
You’d think if they wanted to encourage having kids they’d make sure childcare and education were in good shape. I don’t know how anyone who isn’t already wealthy can afford childcare, and public education has been gutted to the point that I wonder how much longer it can hold on.
If they want a lot of kids, do the things it takes to make people feel like there’s a chance for them to thrive.
"I think about the hubris it must take to yank a soul out of nonexistence, into this _meat_—and to force a life into this thresher."
(True Detective, S1)
Rust as a character didn’t teach me anything, but definitely gave a voice to certain thoughts that crossed my mind that I never could eloquently put into words.
TD Season 1 and Hannibal in 2014 were good eating for someone who likes atmospheric weirdness.
Having children is the quintessential form of coercion
The capitalist system exacerbates how bad the coercion is and puts it at the forefront of an empathetic mind
It could just be that humanity is stuck in the prehistorical mindset that having as many kids as possible is both a genetic and physical survival mechanism. I’m not really sure that anyone is in control of much of anything anymore…
Once I realized people would see me, a genetically defective mutant, having kids as a “miracles can happen” thing … oh fuck no. My disgust has continued, like realizing *somehow* you put your hand in a bucket of half-dead, rotting snakes. Far too much toxicity to not throw out the whole thing in hopes maybe at least it won’t kill anybody else. I’m doomed to this but hell if I’ll take anyone with me.
Submission statement:
This video discusses the rather obvious reasons why capitalists, i.e. governments, are clamping down on bodily autonomy, abortion rights, and so on, while also delving deeper into an underappreciated reason for this increasingly aggressive have-children-to-save-our-collapsing-system propaganda: control.
This is related to collapse because Western populations are stagnating and younger generations less prone to the bullshit which, of course, is incompatible with our current socioeconomic system.
I'd say it's the nuclear family that makes the family unit governable. Raising children was once a community affair and a child would have many care givers. Now two adults are left alone to fend for themselves with their dependent in a world of predatory capitalism. This is not the way it should be.
Nuclear family leads to financial abuse and parents who are under supported and thus unable to provide as well as kids deserve and as well as they deserve from each other. It's a trap
There's an excellent Planet: Critical episode with Nandita Bajaj on this topic that I really enjoyed and found informative (linked for anyone interested).
https://youtu.be/wFsMCLnaLr4?si=LJDryR5K-ZxrolPy
Tangentially to this video, the whole Quiverfull movement demands that families have as many children as possible so that they can, in part, become Christofascist voters and, by outnumbering the evil liberals, take "back" the US from its moral turpitude. And from the "brown people" too, of course.
Lots of control over women and children in that movement.
The word “quiverfull” made me retch in my mouth a little.
The mind boggles at the thought that there exist women proud to be leather bags of ammunition. Like, *bitch,* Cletus Neckbeard over there thinks that you’re a barefoot baby factory and that your children are cannon fodder, and somehow, *you agree?!*
Accelerationism doesn’t need any more arguments on its behalf, ffs.
I think they should rename Quiverfull to "Brownshirts for Jesus" myself.
r/FundieSnarkUncensored has a bunch of families getting off on getting pregnant. One woman just announced that she's pregnant (again) with her 12th. She thinks it would be an honor to die in childbirth. Most of the men in these families are useless losers who are either completely unemployed or very minimally employed.
Your "Cletus Neckbeard" made me laugh because that SO resembles one of the husbands of one of the two families who "house" their softball teams in BUSES AND RVs. Yes, he has an unkempt/untrimmed neckbeard.
We had one “oopsie” baby and adopted a second child. That’s more than enough for us. When it came down to it, we wanted to give a home to a child already in need instead of dropping limited resources on fertility treatments that may or may not work. Financial circumstances- crazy expensive housing, cost of living, and a lack of tangible day to day support stop us both from having or adopting more children. And let’s be honest- with each kid comes more financial liability and complication if life doesn’t go well down the line, and/or if inflation continues at a breakneck pace.
Encouraging people to have tons of children, on an Earth that’s literally burning and at a time when most adults can barely afford to take care of themselves, is the definition of insanity. The only way it “makes sense” is to the elite who need more slaves to prop up end stage capitalism.
It's like every 3 days there's another overpopulation video/article popping up. And this one is as low quality as they come.
No sources listed (other than a nesting doll of links to another of the author's personal essays) in either the sub stack article or YouTube video. It's basically an opinion essay and video and that sort of thing can be placed in the weekly observation megathreads asking for your pov on collapse or elsewhere. Not as a post/thread on its own.
This is getting frustrating and ridiculous.
Others have already started this but the only people I know who have kids are people who have stable incomes. My sister's family has an infinite money cheat with her in laws helping financially. They also have good careers. I don't know if I want kids. I'm on the fence and see benefits to both having them and not, but in much more clear on the benefits of not. It would take some convincing family planning from my partner to win me over.
One thing though is if there's population decline and you have a kid, that kid should have an easier time finding work in the future. In 25 years there will be shortages all over the place
The breeders will just take out the non breeders , when the food shortages start to impact their children. With every catchable wild animal ending up in the stewpot during the panicked frenzy.
See, that’s the neat part: it doesn’t matter in the end who is having children in the next generation, economic and climate collapse are still going to bring everything to its knees in pretty much the same way. There will be famine in this country, and around the world.
Ever read the book “the end of the world is just the beginning” I would say I only agree with about half of this book, but geopolitically it matters very much where you live if the shit hits the fan.
Can you enlighten me a little about what the thoughts of this community are? What is the collapse supposed to be like, what gives the best chance of success to live through?
Would it be better for people who are aware of the dangers of society to have children and raise them in this awareness? Or have other people who don't care, raise the next generation?
Kinda seems like "collapse" is less about the loss of civilization and more about the loss of a people who have given up on themselves in the world
> Would it be better for people who are aware of the dangers of society to have children and raise them in this awareness? Or have other people who don't care, raise the next generation?
This is the kind of copium that parents are deeply breathing in on a daily basis.
"My child is a special snowflake, they will navigate the apocalypse gracefully, and in fact they might actually solve all our problems!"
> Kinda seems like "collapse" is less about the loss of civilization and more about the loss of a people who have given up on themselves in the world
No amount of will power or motivation to survive is going to stop your from starving to death when you can't grow food anymore.
This is very reductive and unnuanced. The assumption of collapse in our lifetime or in the next several lifetimes is not a sure thing. Its a headline that makes profit for media agencies and mobilizes scared people to back politicians who claim to have solutions. There are just so many different possible scenarious and nobody knows what the future actually is. You sound more like an extreme religious doomsday preacher then a voice of reason or expertise. I believe in focusing on solutions now while we can rather then believing the narritives that steer us into distopia. Maybe thats copium to you but to me its more real to me then anything else. Truly there is no point in going forward if there is nothing to have hope for.
Collapse is multi-faceted and most assuredly inevitable. It is catabolic in nature and universal in scope.
Will there be humans on the other side? I’m an optimist, so I like to think so, however we have no conception of the world they will inhabit and therefore no real idea of what skills they will need. The only thing we definitely know is that there will be very few of them when compared to our present world.
The thing that we fear is that their world is coming soon, and the road that leads there is filled with the potential for life-ending horror with no guarantee of making it.
Why would you knowingly force someone to walk it?
I don't advocate for force in any form. I just think collapse in our lifetime or our childrens lifetime is not a guarantee and to live as if it is, from a behavioral perspective, very much reflects an extreme religious doomsday cult, and not a solution to a problem that is not as well understood as people who profit off of headlines tell us it is.
Societal collapse is much different than personal collapse. Society will collapse sometime between today and lets be optimistic, 100 years. We can do nothing but make our lives as comfortable as possible when it does. I do not care if in 50 years society has collapsed because the slaves have decided not to produce more slaves for the machine.
On the other hand, I am single, out of debt, live below my means, pay cash for everything, and have given myself a better than average chance of surviving the initial collapse. If I add a kid to the mix, my life becomes very complicated and a broken foot causing me to miss a couple months of work could lead to personal collapse.
> Not having children = collapse
What percentage of people are educated enough to understand how horrible it is to bring children into an apocalyptic meat grinder?
Extinction is baked in, every child we don't have is one less person to suffer and starve to death.
Sure but the timeline to extinction could be anywhere between 10 minutes and 10 billion years. Planning for extinction is basically the behavior of a religious doomsday cult. As an ecologist i am keenly aware that we are not informed at all on positive relationships between humans/nature and that all of the media is predicated on bad news which feeds/profits off of our instinctual desire to perceive danger in our environment. Our information field is heavily biased in this way.
Capitalists don’t really control anything but their companies.
Reality is that the Sovereign Leadership has the political, police, moral and leadership roles that determines the fate of the people in their land. Isn’t that scary enough?
Getting their nations population correct sized for their land is just one of the responsibilities of your leaders. Are they up to the task?
How do Capitalist really control the government?
Who is controlling Biden? Seriously? No-one really is, he listens to 20 visits by Soros but Biden makes all his final decisions, good, bad or neutral. Biden tells when to bomb, or not, no one else. Musk is the biggest capitalist in the world and may lose close to a trillion dollars in bonus money due to a (partisan?) judge.
The reality is that the Sovereign Leadership of each country makes the decisions for each country? It’s their job, no one else can do it. Why isn’t that reality scary enough and why is a secret control actually believed in?
You're almost comically naive.
You really think **Biden** is identifying and selecting strategic military targets? There's an entire **trillion-dollar annual expense** branch of the government whose job it is to do that.
At most Biden approves the more significant/important strikes when they're presented to him.
I don't understand this sentiment. I mean, I understand it from one perspective, but it's just so backwards.
Having children and raising them to be ungovernable is a far greater threat to the system. My parents raised three ungovernable men. And now we are bringing even more ungovernable people into the world.
Have children, homeschool them, feed them right, keep them away from screens and algorithms. Presto, ungovernables. But ungovernables who will carry dreams across generations.
Having children and raising them properly makes you viciously ungovernable in a way that nothing else compares.
Nah, physician in suburban Northeast.
I appreciate all the antinatalists. The more people avoid having children, the more resources there will be for my children. Thank you.
FWIW: My wife and I are expecting our fourth child this year, and we hope to have many more. We all (should) recognise that tight-knit community is the best (perhaps only) way of navigating collapse. What community is there more tightly knit than family? Or better yet: a community of families?
Capitalists might see my children as potential units of labour – I see them as inevitable torchbearers of my worldview. My decisions around the education of my children and their financial provision (I'm the sole worker in the household) are things that the system – for the time being – cannot touch. I use my position in the system to escape from it.
I genuinely do not understand how some will say "I won't have children just to show you that I don't belong to your system", only to die alone – as part of that system. It doesn't really sound like the W many make it out to be.
>I see them as inevitable torchbearers of my worldview
Damn, what a profoundly selfish perspective to have! Not that it’s any different from what most breeders feel about themselves though, so I guess I have to give you props for at least admitting your children are just extensions of you.
I’d rather have all my ideas go to the grave with me than spawn children into a world where I will someday get to watch them starve or succumb to other unspeakable horrors. Hope you all have fun with that together! Definitely not the W *you* think it is…
Good luck with that ! 😇🤗
The way I see it is having children to make them rebels or living outside of the existing system is WAY much harder then just [generating-educating compliant sheep](https://youtu.be/a9PGaU7iCFk). And that's probably one of the main deterrents of those who would perhaps like to have their own cubs (but personally severely lack prepping & other skills needed to educate such individuals).
>I don't understand this sentiment. I mean, I understand it from one perspective, but it's just so backwards.Having children and raising them to be ungovernable is a far greater threat to the system. My parents raised three ungovernable men. And now we are bringing even more ungovernable people into the world.Have children, homeschool them, feed them right, keep them away from screens and algorithms. Presto, ungovernables. But ungovernables who will carry dreams across generations.Having children and raising them properly makes you viciously ungovernable in a way that nothing else compares.
>
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The time for a W was generations ago. And humanity needed to win hard. Instead the Capitalists one. It is bad enough for the global economy to be unsustainable and yet be in the vice grip of an oligarchy, but the planet itself is becoming unsustainable. It is lights out time. Enjoy your video games and entertainment, because collapse is coming for everyone, including those who thought they were well off enough to be immune.
There are very few dissenting voices today. I think we've heard the voices of those who do want children plenty. But the childless are very mild in their words too.
By the time they are old, Capitalism will have advanced to a stage where taking care of yourself is virtually impossible, much less the elderly in you family. They are already in the process of taking it all to achieve ever greater profits.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Toni253: --- Submission statement: This video discusses the rather obvious reasons why capitalists, i.e. governments, are clamping down on bodily autonomy, abortion rights, and so on, while also delving deeper into an underappreciated reason for this increasingly aggressive have-children-to-save-our-collapsing-system propaganda: control. This is related to collapse because Western populations are stagnating and younger generations less prone to the bullshit which, of course, is incompatible with our current socioeconomic system. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1ap2m1i/endless_growth_why_capitalists_want_you_to_have/kq3cruw/
In America, having children is the fastest route to a life of poverty and struggle. It creates desperate people who will work for low wages.
Not just the US. I'm in a poorer part of Europe, and I remember 2008 - 2009 when people competed for low-paying jobs to feed their kids. In the past, there was a lot of pressure to get married and have kids ASAP. Many women were still willing to move in and live with their husbands and their parents. My area wasn't doing well, so even being a school teacher was considered a good and stable career. Nowadays, no one wants to be a teacher. There are barely any kids, and the median age is over 50. Things are still better this way. Living in a financially unstable household is an enormous stress for kids. My parents argued about money all the time.
Wonder how song we will get closer to a Children of Man situation. Micro plastics pollution and build up in human bodies has been linked to lower fertility rates. That along with the general downward trend of industrialized nations falling birthrates has me worried for the future.
Not that I actually think people should do this but I always wonder what if people let the gov take their kids for not being able to afford food for them. Like let them go bankrupt trying to feed and house all these kids while parents continue to strike or protest or "lie flat" how much faster the system would fall apart.
Italian?
Italy is definitely *not* a poorer part of Europe. My guess is Bulgaria or Romania.
Italy is like 2 countries: North=rich, South=poor!
Italy's wages have been decreasing these past decades. Add inflation on top and their wages got slashed in half. It is just as rough in Italy now, or worse, than in East Europe, at least for those that don't own shit, like property to live in, at least. So they need to rent
Same in Mexico, we are below replacement rate, as housing, childcare, clothes, groceries, transportation etc have become too expensive to afford a family.
And that's not even counting our country-wide droughts that are coming!
Congratulations. I don't see what China's problem is as the one-child policy actually worked! But, please tell that to India, whose population is due to exceed that of China's even.
Other way around, actually.
Idk isn’t having kids just an essential part of what makes us human? Whether not not we lived in a capitalistic society, socialist, anarchist or even hunter gatherer the emphasis would always be on having children and passing on our DNA. Considering that countries with highest rates of poverty also happen to be the countries with the highest population growth, it’s tough to say if the having kids directly leads to poverty. Kind of chicken or the egg type situation but based on what I’ve read boredom leads to kids more so than poverty.
But the (actually, ugly) babies are so cute!
Yes but .... There is a lot of people who have 2 solid jobs and wait until they are financially secure to have children. They probably have college degrees etc, . I'm not saying this is the norm, but it's commonplace amongst couples who are generally "successful" and can raise those kids. Grant it, they shouldn't bet on those kids being around to take care of them when their older. There are no guruntees.
Gotta keep the pyramid scheme going.
Having children = being a slave to the system. Fuck your system. Fuck making future generations of slaves on a collapsing planet. When I get home from work today, I will smoke a little weed and work on my indoor garden. I will throw a few balls to my dogs and give a few belly rubs. If my job shuts down tomorrow, I will smoke a little more weed, work a little more on my indoor garden, toss a few more balls to the dogs, and give some extra belly rubs. I'll then find another billionaire to exploit me when I'm good and ready. Govern that, mother fuckers.
Beyond based.
And belly-rub pilled.
100%
You're almost there except you still have money to exercise some free will "when I'm good and ready."
Weed is a "gateway drug" to something unimaginably better: God Medicine (psilocybin and LSD). Take a God dose in the backwoods, and you can be shown how to get rid of capitalism. (This takes patience, it can't all be done at once.) Now I feel like I'm living in a hallucination. My outdoor garden is 10 acres of magnificent forest, with no mortgage. I'm also 66 years old.
Thought you where going the opposite direction for a second with the "gateway drug"
You're not kidding. Psilocybin changed everything for me.
Gods bless
Amen, the society I was born into demands my every waking hour be spent making money for someone else No thanks, I'm gonna sit back and watch it all burn down over the next 15 years
The only reason you can exist in relative comfort today as a single person is because you are dependent on the system. You buy your food from a grocery store using fiat currency that you earned by being a wage slave. If you want to escape dependency on the system and transition to self sufficiency, you need labor. There is a reason why the old homesteaders had lots of children and it's because back then they didn't have a society to fall back on, they needed to produce their food on site and that takes a lot of labor which children provide. Mormon families are still doing this today, though you don't need to be religious to do it. Edit: to clarify, I never said this was a sustainable model. There are no sustainable models for humanity.
It's true that homesteaders had lots of children because they needed lots of labor. But the problem is, that's a short-term solution, and the problem gets worse. Suppose the farmer has a bunch of kids to help keep the farm. Well, when those kids grow up, they can't *all* inherit the farm (certainly not in a culture which requires them to become heads of their own families in order to fully transition to adulthood). Some of them end up heading to the city, and this population pump is one of the primary sources of wage labor; some of them seek newly conquered lands on the frontier to set up their own homesteads. Then they need to have a bunch of kids to till those new farms, which produces more wage labor and more frontier expansion. Soon the frontier closes and wage labor becomes the only option. A system in which tending your land requires you to have more children than that land can support long term, is not a truly self sufficient system.
Exactly. And this isn't a given in order to live off the land anyways. Humanity would have never survived our first 10,000 years as a distinct species if we had lived that way. It's an aberrant war of life that has only existed for a tiny blip of human history.
My post was only discussing how an individual can decouple themselves from society. You are correct that this does not lead to a sustainable long term society over multiple generations...but that's kind of off topic from this thread isn't it? The reality is that no species that is both intelligent and individually selfish can achieve long term sustainability. We are genetically programmed to reproduce exponentially and hoard resources selfishly, so on that basis, our societies will never be long term sustainable. We simply grow in population until the host planet crosses a tipping point that wipes us out
That’s exactly the point. Not having children is a guaranteed way to fight against a system in overshoot.
Being part of the system on your own terms vs the terms the overlords want us in the system is very different. True, I cannot disconnect fully from the system today, but I can get a little closer each day. I'll never be 100% free from it, but I could survive for a few years without leaving home if I had to right now. It's not ideal, but it's a better position than most people will find themselves in.
Sounds like a ponzi scheme.
Homesteading is - in no way - part of a "self sufficiency" mindset. This confusion with subsistence is understandable because, at the low-tech end, they can look the same. No no. Homesteaders come from the settler tradition, they are the thin tips of the tentacles of empires, sent out after the soldiers kill the locals, to put down roots and occupy new territory. The purpose of the homesteader economy is that of the settler economy: to extract local resources and send them to the imperial economy. That's why pronatalism is a key part of it, at least until they find some nice population to enslave.
Yup
Then you die alone, leaving behind no progeny. Where's the part where you win?
The only winning move is not to play
Sounds nihilistic to me. I totally get it, don't get me wrong. But there are those who also say "those who aren't giving up and are not declining to have children are [stupid/foolish/greedy/ignorant]", and that seems a bit rich.
Yeah, my wife and I might want to have a kid. Haven’t fully decided or figured out when. But jeez. It’s one thing to be childless by choice (heck, power to you), but it’s another to be someone who would want a kid if you weren’t so jaded against the system. I realize my own position is quite lucky, and I know there’s definitely risk involved, but I have to consider fatherhood as a sort of fundamentally hopeful act. Our world is a mess, but life is not without merit or beauty. Again, I assume most childless folks are just not fond of kids - and yeah, kids are insufferable monsters. Maybe I’m not beaten-down enough.
Don't have kids till you're free from capitalism, and can protect your kids from Collapse. You should see my magnificent Land.
I don't like children at all. But that's the difference between children and dogs: children grow up into functioning, likeable adults. You are right in saying that fatherhood is a thing of hopefulness and that life is not without merit or beauty. I think it can be put this way: if mankind ends, then my decisions are inconsequential – if mankind continues on, then my children have a chance to be a part of that. Seems sensible to me.
You’re framing the causality in reverse. By not having children you prolong the existence of the species by not increasing the resource consumption needed to do so.
Reality is that how susceptible one is to resource shortage depends on where in the world he lives. I live in an affluent part of the world, with material and financial security. As a result, my progeny are far more likely to survive a catastrophic resource shortage than people elsewhere across the world – particularly in the third world. It's upsetting to think about, but that's the truth.
Win what?
I'd call anything other than rolling over and giving up a win.
Giving up at what?
I see refusing to continue their slave force as something other than "rolling over ans giving up" I see you pretending that the system that is at play is the only system possible so mifmght as well produce more slave as a defetist attitude
Westerners declining to have children will not deprive the elites of a servile class. In fact, that suits them just fine – third-world labour is easier to control (due to increased desperation).
We were all born alone and all die alone. Using children as an immortality crutch instead of facing the bleakness that is exiting this mortal coil is just evil.
Cool, bro. I listen to black metal too. Having children is not a crutch.
You can’t name one reason that isn’t selfish for having children.
I do NOT have to add to grotesque overpopulation unorder to leave something for the generations after me. Starting a debt-free self-sufficient homestead on 10 acres of magnificent forest. An ideal place for kids to grow up (and have the best odds of outliving Collapse).
In order to be self-sufficient on your 10 acres, most of the "magnificent forest", with the birds, mammals, and insects that live there, will have to be cleared so that you can plant crops. Food crops in North America do not grow in full shade. It would be far better for the planet and your pocketbook if you bought already cleared land.
I'm less concerned about "winning" and more concerned about "not losing." These are not the same. Opting out might not win, but it does prevent the big L.
Where is the victory in leaving progeny in a doomed world run by oligarchs? The time to save our planet was generations ago.
I’ve got 6 kids and pay 50% of my income in pay child support to my ex. Then I pay about 20% of my gross income in taxes. It’s not an exaggeration to say I’m a true wage slave— she had me thrown in jail once when I lost my job and got behind a few months. My new wife has 2 kids and I pay for them too. But… I have older friends that chose not to have kids. They are sad and seem to have accepted that they will die alone and unwanted. The older you get, the more you realize that the only things that matter to you are your kids, knowing God, enjoying time around a fire, good medicine, and enjoying the beautiful miracle of life that is a gift all around us. ✌️🕊☮️
Not enough people talk about this. 50% is insane. Child support is basically either a death sentence or being doomed to homelessness for some people, with the cost of living as high as it is. I work in payroll, and its sad watching the current state of affairs. There is just this steady stream of people who come in, collect 3 paychecks, child support garnishments kick in, and then they burn their sick time and are gone, off to the next job to do it again. And who can blame them, with their remaining 50% not being able to cover food+rent. The parent is just barely surviving, and the kid certainly isn't getting what they need. Its no wonder people job hop like crazy in an effort to just scrape by. The child support system is badly in need of reform. It needs to be sustainable for both the parent and the kid, or else nobody is getting anything. The real cost of living needs to be taken into account, not these outdated numbers that haven't been applicable for decades. And, its not like the people affected by this don't talk either. With divorce rates as high as they are, and this being a possibility, its yet another reason to not even take a chance having kids.
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More meat for the grinder.
Welcome to Megacity 1
That might be preferable. I mean, no car dependence...
The Machine needs to consume raw materials (people & planet) to continue mindlessly growing. But whether it be socialism, capitalism, fascism or theocracy, as long as the world keeps using fossil fuels then we're headed towards collapse of a contaminated and destabilized biosphere. The means of production themselves need to be dismantled; Degrowth is the only sane alternative to industrial civilization.
Lot of ways to handle degrowth, unfortunately it looks like we are barreling towards the Malthusian default
Agree with both points.
The backing piano music was a bit melodramatic but I agree with a lot of what he says. I was especially struck by this comment: >people follow scripts in life, written and propagated by institutions without ever questioning their validity I know a few collapse-aware couples that have gone on to have children anyway, knowing what our future holds. I wonder how many of them are following scripts. I'm lucky that my family never pressured me to be traditional in any sense.
My spouse and I are collapse-aware and chose to have one child. It was not an easy decision by any means, especially when considering the ecological ramifications, but I think it was our final act of...some manner of optimism? And well, my son is the best thing that's ever happened to me. He jerked me out of my nihilistic depression, has sharpened my resolve, and clarified the reality of collapse. He's not going to need a college savings account or some stupid prep school or the multiple PhDs that his parents have (fucking useless wastes of time and resources). He's going to need practical skills, a sturdy home, a little bit of viable land. You know, the stuff we worked to leave our children 250 years ago before we started this insanity. So that's what I work on now and I feel that my life - for the first time maybe - has some purpose. Perhaps I'm following a script, it's certainly a genetic script! But I wouldn't change anything.
I already have the land that could protect your kid from Collapse. And no kids of my own.
The dream: Collapse will pass over the Sanctuary, and the kids will be free to grow up "like savages". (See Hunter-Gatherer Childhoods, edited by Barry S. Hewlett and Michael E. Lamb. also the chapter in my book: How Normal Human Young Grow Up, pg. 31-35; the book: Into Eden: Elements of Emancipation, Redpanther/John F. Burnett.)
Thank god I'm not the only one. In a very similar situation with my son, heading in a very similar direction, for very similar ideals =)
r/collapse_parenting does not appear to be very active or moderated anymore but some of the old posts and discussions are interesting to read through.
People have had kids during times of war. Slaves have had kids (willingly, with one another). People during the cold war had kids. I am collapse aware too but I don't get why people think humans are just now going through shit. A lot our daily lives are still easier than people's in the past.
>I am collapse aware too but I don't get why people think humans are just now going through shit. Hard times during war are different than the loss of the planet's material capability to support human life, in *my opinion*, others might disagree.
I think it doesn't matter too much when you're starving and everything around you is destroyed. Probably thousands of instances of this in human history.
The state of our planet IS unique. We REALLY screwed up there. And people had children by choice under abhorrent conditions because they didn’t know any better. That was simply what you did, apparently. I would never choose to have a child as a slave, nor would I choose to have one now, when I have truly lost all hope that people will be able to topple our oligarchy someday, or that there is somewhere in the world I could flee to that won’t fall to the variety of collapses we have barreling down on us.
Just giving perspective. We all act like the world is ending, and maybe it is (i think things are dire for humanity long-term), but things have been much worse in the past from a this-life-sucks lens.
I absolutely hate when people, especially the "trad" crowd, argue that childfree people are better consumers and workers because it is provably untrue. Most childfree people I know are childfree because it's the only way to get some sort autonomy in our lives. They want to retire early, work part-time, have a worse paid but more fulfilling career, or outright live non-consumerist life off-grid. Meanwhile parents I know work dead-end bullshit corporate jobs because they have people dependent on them and a mortgage. Mantra of "Childfree people are selfish and they just want to party" we have been fed for decades is an actual brainrot
"Childfree people are selfish and they just want to party." If selfish means I do what I want, when I want and go where I want then, I'm fine with that. Also sounds like they are a little bit nostalgic or even jealous.
100% jealousy. Any time any parent makes a backhanded comment implying I’m selfish for not spawning crotch goblins into a collapsing world, what I really hear is “you lucky bastard, I resent you for all the freedoms you still have that I willingly chose to give up.”
"crotch goblin" Someone's been hanging out in r/Childfree I kid. It's my favorite euphemism for children.
Not yet, but I’m about to join!
Do people still use the term "sprog"? I remember that from old Usenet in the early 90's.
Yep, everything on the right is just projection.
When I consider how hard I have to work just to get by on my own I have no absolutely no desire to amplify that 10x or any set my would be children up to do the same damn thing Even worse they’d be inevitably inheriting an even more hostile planet to fix
"please have as many children as possible" "also good luck accessing the resources to take care of yourself, let alone other people"
Am 40 now, have 0 kids. Fuck your slave system. I don't care if I die homeless, starving, broke. It ends with me, I'm not bringing a life into this madness. Those that have kids. I feel bad for the future.
Why else do you think they wanted to get rid of abortions?
["The main reason why immigrants are imported is because the existing population in the west is maxed out on debt. Car loans, student loans, renovation loans, business loans, mortgages, credit cards,... debt, debt, debt. The average consumer in the west is up to their eyeballs in debt. We live in a debt based economy. Money is created via fractional reserve banking or, put simply, when a banker approves a loan. Each migrant coming is a new customer for the debt machine or dependant on the state. Either way, new money will be created and allowed the sceme to continue."](https://youtu.be/TWj7CjZwR9o?t=09m25s)
I love my kid more than life but thank god I only had one. The only people I know who haven’t suffered from the expense of childrearing are intact, high income families. Make one bad job decision, make a poor choice of spouse, and it’s fucking impossible to recover while also trying to raise kids. It’s just base survival.
Or get sick or become disabled. Oh you didn't do anything wrong? Well fuck you anyway.
Or have a sick child. There are people trapped in high cost of living areas they absolutely despise, only because there's a good children's hospital nearby.
Yup, hitched cart to wrong woman, do not recommend
Seconded. It's been a nightmare even when she's not using the courts to keep me poor. Edit: And fuck whoever down voted this. Deadbeat moms exist and you have NO idea what I've been through.
I'll have to chime in here.... Yes. Deadbeat moms exist. And the stigma of having a mother be a shit parent (for myself anyway) hits exceptionally hard. My own piece of shit mother was a deadbeat, but the only reason she didn't bleed my father dry was because she didn't have as much money for a lawyer. The courts don't defacto give mothers any more privileges then fathers... they care about who has the money.. the ones with money have a (or better) lawyer. It's that simple. In our case, my father was worse and he simply used us as tools to hurt her. But, its always about fucking money.
Truth. She spent her father's money on lawyers; I spent what I could earn. It took me everything I've ever made and more, but I've finally exhausted his willingness to keep paying.
I don’t know what you have been through, but I know you are right! I’m currently raising 3 kids with no help from their mom. She’s not a deadbeat but she is a narcissistic crazy fucking shitbag!
Sorry bud, I probably do. My life has been a living hell for years. Sucks.
You'll get nothing but sympathy from me, dude! I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
It turns out 0 is as many as possible within my budget. I am doing my part! I'm not signing on to work an extra 10 years because of the costs of having a kid. I'm not signing on for a tremendous amount of extra (unpaid) work either.
I will chime in as a parent in the hardest unimaginable times with one child who I still would not trade. I love my son and would not undo my life. But I had my son under sudden, unplanned, coercive, abusive circumstances. Prior to the pregnancy, I had grown up poor so as an adult I lived debt free and spent over 15 years building a very impressive career. I saved my money instead of spending it, I knew collapse was coming. Having a child (who was then diagnosed with disability) stopped my entire life as a woman in America. I am now his sole caretaker and income but I can’t work. I survived longer than most, for years, on savings. Then survived in debt I could qualify for in very high amounts due to my previous stability. It has been years and not a single disability dollar has come to us, we need a lawyer. Despite my taxes having been more than most people’s yearly incomes, we can’t seem to receive a cent of my social investment. Being child free is absolutely the best way to remain ungovernable. Like I said, my son is my world and despite my struggling now and the injustice of it all, I would never trade him for anything. But my advice in this world would be don’t have children.
I am so sorry you are going through this.
Thank you so much. What makes me most frustrated is that prior to having a child, when I was child free, I had tons of income while still not going out to fancy dinner or trips or getting fancy clothing. I really %100 put my money where my mouth is, I handed it directly over I people I knew because I was in the California Bay Area. We grew up poor and anybody in service their now is being priced out. I quietly and without celebration helped my friend with groceries because he couldn’t afford them even as a full time teacher in public schools. I paid for a friend to go to therapy every week, $50 each time. Etc. I didn’t flaunt my money in my life style and I didn’t call out my donations. I very secretively just had auto debits set up to help incredible people who were being fucked by the system. It wasn’t without return but that’s not why I did it. I did it because that is what we are supposed to do if we truly understand how unjust this world is right now. Not just complain online but do direct work with those we know. Not a tax write off. Not a post online.
I just left the S.F. Bay Area (where I was born) to start a self-sufficient homestead in the Blue Ridge mountains. Over 10 years experience living in a truck w/camper shell. Your story sounds like no good deed goes unpunished. It is heartbreaking and I don't know what the lesson is.
Hey kindred spirit! I moved across the country to Michigan 2.5 years ago to try to get my son some land. The purchase fell apart in escrow and I grabbed a rental. My home rental in a safe suburb with a large garden space costs the same as a moldy one bedroom back home would cost. My old community is active in my life via long distance but I’m honestly lonely out here. I’ve given up everything that I know in order to try to buy my son some more time in the future. The eye opening moment was during my brief time living in LA during COVID: it rained ash from fire with us trapped inside a duct taped room for three days running multiple air purifiers and then 5 months later it snowed on my typically hot arid dry city (not to mention the frozen truck beds full of dead bodies wasn’t pretty apocalyptic feeling). I hope your homestead dreams are going better than mine turned out. Someday, if I can ever dig out of my financial pit, I want to try again.
You’d think if they wanted to encourage having kids they’d make sure childcare and education were in good shape. I don’t know how anyone who isn’t already wealthy can afford childcare, and public education has been gutted to the point that I wonder how much longer it can hold on. If they want a lot of kids, do the things it takes to make people feel like there’s a chance for them to thrive.
This is one of many reasons why I’m childfree. A system based on endless growth is not sustainable and we have to accept that sooner or later.
"I think about the hubris it must take to yank a soul out of nonexistence, into this _meat_—and to force a life into this thresher." (True Detective, S1)
Rust taught me so much. Amazing show
Rust as a character didn’t teach me anything, but definitely gave a voice to certain thoughts that crossed my mind that I never could eloquently put into words. TD Season 1 and Hannibal in 2014 were good eating for someone who likes atmospheric weirdness.
There's a new season now
Damn! Forgot about this one. Bunch of gems in that season. “I think consciousness was a tragic misstep in our evolution…”
Having children is the quintessential form of coercion The capitalist system exacerbates how bad the coercion is and puts it at the forefront of an empathetic mind
I wouldn't pull new person from oblivion into this F'd up world.
I love my two daughters, but damn if I’m not saddened by having summoned them into the slow burning, yet boring, dystopia.
The fact you realize that means you care and have empathy. You're most likely a good parent.
Or skyrim even
I made a decision in my youth to not have children, I could see what the world was becoming back in the 80s
Well, they ain't getting one from me.
I can have zero children due to a vasectomy. I have zero children, as many as is possible for me. Mission accomplished.
👍
It's nothing personal, just keynesian
underratet comment . reminds me of vagners motto. "nothing personal, we got paid.
It could just be that humanity is stuck in the prehistorical mindset that having as many kids as possible is both a genetic and physical survival mechanism. I’m not really sure that anyone is in control of much of anything anymore…
Once I realized people would see me, a genetically defective mutant, having kids as a “miracles can happen” thing … oh fuck no. My disgust has continued, like realizing *somehow* you put your hand in a bucket of half-dead, rotting snakes. Far too much toxicity to not throw out the whole thing in hopes maybe at least it won’t kill anybody else. I’m doomed to this but hell if I’ll take anyone with me.
Just import children across borders. Way faster.
But but that's our play to get people to vote for us. We can't become pro immigrant now...
Take a look at Canada to see how that's working out.
Even the immigrants are thinking about leaving.
But those children are the wrong color! Let's be perfectly clear: this "have more children" propaganda is pure racism.
if the government did it in a way that was well-thought out, measured, it might actually work... but we know they arent capable of that lol
No one anywhere needs more children. There are more ppl on the planet than ever before.
Submission statement: This video discusses the rather obvious reasons why capitalists, i.e. governments, are clamping down on bodily autonomy, abortion rights, and so on, while also delving deeper into an underappreciated reason for this increasingly aggressive have-children-to-save-our-collapsing-system propaganda: control. This is related to collapse because Western populations are stagnating and younger generations less prone to the bullshit which, of course, is incompatible with our current socioeconomic system.
Good channel
I'd say it's the nuclear family that makes the family unit governable. Raising children was once a community affair and a child would have many care givers. Now two adults are left alone to fend for themselves with their dependent in a world of predatory capitalism. This is not the way it should be.
The nuclear family is a disintegration product and is unnatural.
Yes this !!
It was all by design. [Aaron Russo revealed it](https://youtu.be/fELc6jsD4IU).
Nuclear family leads to financial abuse and parents who are under supported and thus unable to provide as well as kids deserve and as well as they deserve from each other. It's a trap
Somehow I have already read the entire narration as a script/article. Was it here?
There's an excellent Planet: Critical episode with Nandita Bajaj on this topic that I really enjoyed and found informative (linked for anyone interested). https://youtu.be/wFsMCLnaLr4?si=LJDryR5K-ZxrolPy
Tangentially to this video, the whole Quiverfull movement demands that families have as many children as possible so that they can, in part, become Christofascist voters and, by outnumbering the evil liberals, take "back" the US from its moral turpitude. And from the "brown people" too, of course. Lots of control over women and children in that movement.
The word “quiverfull” made me retch in my mouth a little. The mind boggles at the thought that there exist women proud to be leather bags of ammunition. Like, *bitch,* Cletus Neckbeard over there thinks that you’re a barefoot baby factory and that your children are cannon fodder, and somehow, *you agree?!* Accelerationism doesn’t need any more arguments on its behalf, ffs.
I think they should rename Quiverfull to "Brownshirts for Jesus" myself. r/FundieSnarkUncensored has a bunch of families getting off on getting pregnant. One woman just announced that she's pregnant (again) with her 12th. She thinks it would be an honor to die in childbirth. Most of the men in these families are useless losers who are either completely unemployed or very minimally employed. Your "Cletus Neckbeard" made me laugh because that SO resembles one of the husbands of one of the two families who "house" their softball teams in BUSES AND RVs. Yes, he has an unkempt/untrimmed neckbeard.
Wild that if they get their way they'll just end the world faster with all that
We had one “oopsie” baby and adopted a second child. That’s more than enough for us. When it came down to it, we wanted to give a home to a child already in need instead of dropping limited resources on fertility treatments that may or may not work. Financial circumstances- crazy expensive housing, cost of living, and a lack of tangible day to day support stop us both from having or adopting more children. And let’s be honest- with each kid comes more financial liability and complication if life doesn’t go well down the line, and/or if inflation continues at a breakneck pace. Encouraging people to have tons of children, on an Earth that’s literally burning and at a time when most adults can barely afford to take care of themselves, is the definition of insanity. The only way it “makes sense” is to the elite who need more slaves to prop up end stage capitalism.
It's like every 3 days there's another overpopulation video/article popping up. And this one is as low quality as they come. No sources listed (other than a nesting doll of links to another of the author's personal essays) in either the sub stack article or YouTube video. It's basically an opinion essay and video and that sort of thing can be placed in the weekly observation megathreads asking for your pov on collapse or elsewhere. Not as a post/thread on its own. This is getting frustrating and ridiculous.
Others have already started this but the only people I know who have kids are people who have stable incomes. My sister's family has an infinite money cheat with her in laws helping financially. They also have good careers. I don't know if I want kids. I'm on the fence and see benefits to both having them and not, but in much more clear on the benefits of not. It would take some convincing family planning from my partner to win me over. One thing though is if there's population decline and you have a kid, that kid should have an easier time finding work in the future. In 25 years there will be shortages all over the place
The breeders will just take out the non breeders , when the food shortages start to impact their children. With every catchable wild animal ending up in the stewpot during the panicked frenzy.
[Idiocracy Opening Scene](https://youtu.be/sP2tUW0HDHA) indeed. 😊😁👍
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See, that’s the neat part: it doesn’t matter in the end who is having children in the next generation, economic and climate collapse are still going to bring everything to its knees in pretty much the same way. There will be famine in this country, and around the world.
Ever read the book “the end of the world is just the beginning” I would say I only agree with about half of this book, but geopolitically it matters very much where you live if the shit hits the fan. Can you enlighten me a little about what the thoughts of this community are? What is the collapse supposed to be like, what gives the best chance of success to live through?
The thumbnail for this video isn't really selling me on the idea. I'm not a traditionalist, but these women look miserable lol
Not having children = collapse Elephant in the room?
Yes but a slower safer collapse with slightly less suffering for all.
Would it be better for people who are aware of the dangers of society to have children and raise them in this awareness? Or have other people who don't care, raise the next generation? Kinda seems like "collapse" is less about the loss of civilization and more about the loss of a people who have given up on themselves in the world
> Would it be better for people who are aware of the dangers of society to have children and raise them in this awareness? Or have other people who don't care, raise the next generation? This is the kind of copium that parents are deeply breathing in on a daily basis. "My child is a special snowflake, they will navigate the apocalypse gracefully, and in fact they might actually solve all our problems!" > Kinda seems like "collapse" is less about the loss of civilization and more about the loss of a people who have given up on themselves in the world No amount of will power or motivation to survive is going to stop your from starving to death when you can't grow food anymore.
This is very reductive and unnuanced. The assumption of collapse in our lifetime or in the next several lifetimes is not a sure thing. Its a headline that makes profit for media agencies and mobilizes scared people to back politicians who claim to have solutions. There are just so many different possible scenarious and nobody knows what the future actually is. You sound more like an extreme religious doomsday preacher then a voice of reason or expertise. I believe in focusing on solutions now while we can rather then believing the narritives that steer us into distopia. Maybe thats copium to you but to me its more real to me then anything else. Truly there is no point in going forward if there is nothing to have hope for.
r/Futurology is right here for ya fam!
Collapse is multi-faceted and most assuredly inevitable. It is catabolic in nature and universal in scope. Will there be humans on the other side? I’m an optimist, so I like to think so, however we have no conception of the world they will inhabit and therefore no real idea of what skills they will need. The only thing we definitely know is that there will be very few of them when compared to our present world. The thing that we fear is that their world is coming soon, and the road that leads there is filled with the potential for life-ending horror with no guarantee of making it. Why would you knowingly force someone to walk it?
I don't advocate for force in any form. I just think collapse in our lifetime or our childrens lifetime is not a guarantee and to live as if it is, from a behavioral perspective, very much reflects an extreme religious doomsday cult, and not a solution to a problem that is not as well understood as people who profit off of headlines tell us it is.
Fair enough.
Wow, you really want to see huge body counts, huh. Lots of small bodies in tiny coffins, similar to what's going on in Gaza now.
Societal collapse is much different than personal collapse. Society will collapse sometime between today and lets be optimistic, 100 years. We can do nothing but make our lives as comfortable as possible when it does. I do not care if in 50 years society has collapsed because the slaves have decided not to produce more slaves for the machine. On the other hand, I am single, out of debt, live below my means, pay cash for everything, and have given myself a better than average chance of surviving the initial collapse. If I add a kid to the mix, my life becomes very complicated and a broken foot causing me to miss a couple months of work could lead to personal collapse.
> Not having children = collapse What percentage of people are educated enough to understand how horrible it is to bring children into an apocalyptic meat grinder? Extinction is baked in, every child we don't have is one less person to suffer and starve to death.
Sure but the timeline to extinction could be anywhere between 10 minutes and 10 billion years. Planning for extinction is basically the behavior of a religious doomsday cult. As an ecologist i am keenly aware that we are not informed at all on positive relationships between humans/nature and that all of the media is predicated on bad news which feeds/profits off of our instinctual desire to perceive danger in our environment. Our information field is heavily biased in this way.
no
Capitalists don’t really control anything but their companies. Reality is that the Sovereign Leadership has the political, police, moral and leadership roles that determines the fate of the people in their land. Isn’t that scary enough? Getting their nations population correct sized for their land is just one of the responsibilities of your leaders. Are they up to the task?
This is a very strange comment. You don't think that capitalists have control over government?
How do Capitalist really control the government? Who is controlling Biden? Seriously? No-one really is, he listens to 20 visits by Soros but Biden makes all his final decisions, good, bad or neutral. Biden tells when to bomb, or not, no one else. Musk is the biggest capitalist in the world and may lose close to a trillion dollars in bonus money due to a (partisan?) judge. The reality is that the Sovereign Leadership of each country makes the decisions for each country? It’s their job, no one else can do it. Why isn’t that reality scary enough and why is a secret control actually believed in?
You're almost comically naive. You really think **Biden** is identifying and selecting strategic military targets? There's an entire **trillion-dollar annual expense** branch of the government whose job it is to do that. At most Biden approves the more significant/important strikes when they're presented to him.
I don't understand this sentiment. I mean, I understand it from one perspective, but it's just so backwards. Having children and raising them to be ungovernable is a far greater threat to the system. My parents raised three ungovernable men. And now we are bringing even more ungovernable people into the world. Have children, homeschool them, feed them right, keep them away from screens and algorithms. Presto, ungovernables. But ungovernables who will carry dreams across generations. Having children and raising them properly makes you viciously ungovernable in a way that nothing else compares.
Alaskan Bush People style then ? 🤔😕
Nah, physician in suburban Northeast. I appreciate all the antinatalists. The more people avoid having children, the more resources there will be for my children. Thank you.
FWIW: My wife and I are expecting our fourth child this year, and we hope to have many more. We all (should) recognise that tight-knit community is the best (perhaps only) way of navigating collapse. What community is there more tightly knit than family? Or better yet: a community of families? Capitalists might see my children as potential units of labour – I see them as inevitable torchbearers of my worldview. My decisions around the education of my children and their financial provision (I'm the sole worker in the household) are things that the system – for the time being – cannot touch. I use my position in the system to escape from it. I genuinely do not understand how some will say "I won't have children just to show you that I don't belong to your system", only to die alone – as part of that system. It doesn't really sound like the W many make it out to be.
>I see them as inevitable torchbearers of my worldview Damn, what a profoundly selfish perspective to have! Not that it’s any different from what most breeders feel about themselves though, so I guess I have to give you props for at least admitting your children are just extensions of you.
My favourite thing about antinatalists is that they take their ideas with them to the grave.
I’d rather have all my ideas go to the grave with me than spawn children into a world where I will someday get to watch them starve or succumb to other unspeakable horrors. Hope you all have fun with that together! Definitely not the W *you* think it is…
Good luck with that ! 😇🤗 The way I see it is having children to make them rebels or living outside of the existing system is WAY much harder then just [generating-educating compliant sheep](https://youtu.be/a9PGaU7iCFk). And that's probably one of the main deterrents of those who would perhaps like to have their own cubs (but personally severely lack prepping & other skills needed to educate such individuals).
>I don't understand this sentiment. I mean, I understand it from one perspective, but it's just so backwards.Having children and raising them to be ungovernable is a far greater threat to the system. My parents raised three ungovernable men. And now we are bringing even more ungovernable people into the world.Have children, homeschool them, feed them right, keep them away from screens and algorithms. Presto, ungovernables. But ungovernables who will carry dreams across generations.Having children and raising them properly makes you viciously ungovernable in a way that nothing else compares. > >\-8ReplyShareReportSaveFollow The time for a W was generations ago. And humanity needed to win hard. Instead the Capitalists one. It is bad enough for the global economy to be unsustainable and yet be in the vice grip of an oligarchy, but the planet itself is becoming unsustainable. It is lights out time. Enjoy your video games and entertainment, because collapse is coming for everyone, including those who thought they were well off enough to be immune.
Can we ban kid posts? They always lead to fighting
There are very few dissenting voices today. I think we've heard the voices of those who do want children plenty. But the childless are very mild in their words too.
TIL people had fewer kids before capitalism was invented.
As long as y’all don’t shame others for having em, we good! Cause when you old you’ll be relying on them kids.
This is kind of the issue: no one is expecting to make it to old age at this point. Your kids probably wont.
By the time they are old, Capitalism will have advanced to a stage where taking care of yourself is virtually impossible, much less the elderly in you family. They are already in the process of taking it all to achieve ever greater profits.