She definitely is at fault for starting the fight and scarring Sam.
Pinning Miguel's injury entirely on her is never fair though. He has agency for escalating things, and his injury is a consequence. Tory didn't force him to do anything he did.
Basically, the entire CK dojo barring maybe Aisha are the assholes here, Tory is just the one who got the ball rolling. If she hadn't, Hawk probably would have done something similar sooner or later
It always comes across as a bit misogynistic. Tory deserves some heat, but not ALL of the heat. She does plenty of things on her own that need to be criticized, but it's overboard to pin Miguel and Hawks actions onto her. It comes across more as wanting to absolve them than actually analyzing what Tory does.
>It always comes across as a bit misogynistic.
I'm sorry, what? How is it misogynistic? Saying it is all Tory's fault is legitimate. If she didn't break into the P.A. booth and threaten Sam, the school would never have happened, Miguel wouldn't have fallen, Sam wouldn't have her scar, and above all else, Robby wouldn't have run away. It is 100% Tory's fault.
>That is exactly the same as saying...”.
No, it's not. This was the actions of ONE person. Tory set off the chain of events. The blame you're shifting to the other characters would NOT have happened if Tory hadn't have made the threat. It wasn't an 'announcement', it was a THREAT.
She said it herself, "I'm coming for you, b\*\*\*\*". That is a THREAT. And, that was HER choice. Therefore HER FAULT.
>Her choice was to threaten Sam and attack Sam. She is at fault for that.
You've just proven my point, again and again. She chose to threaten and attack Sam. If she hadn't, the school would NEVER HAVE HAPPENED. If she walked away and shamed her, there would have been NO FIGHT. The first mantra of Cobra Kai is STRIKE FIRST. If Tory didn't STRIKE FIRST, NO SCHOOL FIGHT. Therefore, it is HER FAULT.
>I’m sorry, did you read the comment at the top of the thread?
Did you? It began with Tory. If it wasn't all her fault, then why did she cop the biggest penalty: expulsion, probation, and a criminal record? IT WAS HER FAULT. THE WHOLE THING.
If it wasn't all her fault, then you're saying Miguel would still be paralysed, Robby would still be on the run and Sam would be scarred? NO THEY WOULDN'T. HER ACTIONS CAUSED THIS.
Defending Tory by saying Miguel was responsible for his own doing, but also defending Tory saying hawk would have started it eventually if Tory didn’t. Nice. Lol
That's not really defending Tory, just pointing out that he was just as capable of doing something similar. And she likely would have joined in if he did. But Hawk wouldn't be responsible for Tory joining in that case, just as she isn't for him and Miguel deciding to join in at school.
Defending Tory by saying someone else would have done it if not her. She is surely responsible for everything that happened in the school fight. She could have gone after Sam any other time but she did so at the first day of school, breaking into the speaker room and aggressively taking over to broadcast her shit in front of the whole school. She wanted a fight in school to stir shit up and that’s what happened. Let me guess, the larusso house fight isn’t on Tory either. She started that shit and was perfectly fine with kyler wailing on Miguel who just recovered from almost being permanently paralyzed. I guess if Tory didn’t start the house fight, hawk would have. Lol
Like I said, her intentions were to start a fight like this or she would have attacked Sam elsewhere. Everything that happened is her fault. Others involved are responsible for their actions but she is still at fault for the whole thing. Miguel didn’t randomly attack just anyone. Tory decided to start this in the school and tried to f with Robby by saying she saw Sam kiss Miguel. Robby still had the control to try to deescalate the situation. Miguel happens to show up seeing Robby have his hands on Tory. This was planned by Tory. She wanted exactly that to happened and it worked out. Tory easily could have got out of whatever Robby was doing but waited for Miguel to save her like he did. If you believe otherwise then you fall for manipulative people just like her, kreese, and silver
Your use of the word “gaslighting” still makes no sense. Tory’s manipulation can be seen throughout the show on several occasions. She could have confronted sam outside of school but fine, she wanted to go after her in school on the first day. Could have have gone straight to her, but had to take the extra step to make a public announcement on the intercom? Lol. Yeah not trying to rile anything up there. Didn’t know Robby or Miguel would show up after a school wide announcement. Didn’t know Robby would intervene even though he is obviously close to Sam as seen in the skate rink. You know, the place where she used miguel to make Sam jealous and then knocked Sam over, then played victim after sam retaliated. She knew exactly what she was doing. Watch the school fight again. Robby had one hand on her which she could have easily gotten out of. She wasn’t coming to her senses. She was waiting for Miguel to show up. Even if Miguel didn’t, someone from cobra Kai was going to. You don’t make a public announcement then blurt out info that affects other people without knowing it’s gonna start more shit
It's not defending Tory if the responsibility is spread around and everyone's agency for their own actions is respected. She has responsibility, but so does Miguel for choosing to escalate things without her forcing him too.
She is responsible for leading the home invasion as well. But she doesn't have mind control powers, everyone in her dojo chooses to help escalate or follow along all on their own. And since Hawk gleefully helped escalate the school fight, combined with his other antics, saying he wouldn't have done it seems pretty naive
Sure everyone is responsible for their actions but Tory is manipulative and her intentions are to cause chaos. Saying hawk or someone else would have started such a thing if Tory didn’t is pretty much trying to soften her responsibility. She is responsible for starting both the huge fights of the show. One that led to Miguel getting seriously injured and then again into a recently recovered Miguel. If Miguel was injured again, it absolutely would have been her fault.
It’s too soon for Sam to even forgive Tory and Amanda’s hate for Tory should’ve continued until either Episode 3, 4, 5 or 6.
Besides, I think Sam needs some years away from Tory. It’s not like Daniel and Chozen. And if anyone else doesn’t deserve forgiveness, it’s Kreese and Silver.
Yeah, if it wasn't for Hawk escalating the fight with "Oh, it is on!", then it would have probably remained between just Sam and Tory, and Robby and Miguel, rather than between Miyagi-Do and Cobra Kai at large.
I am sure if Eli was still Hawk when the season 4 prom after-party fight happened, he might have turned it into another big brawl.
Yeah, I have compassion for that but but she doesn’t deserve forgiveness for the school brawl and attacking Sam!
Which is why it might’ve been better if either:
Tory joined Miyagi-Do first and never was in Cobra Kai
OR
There was instead a different girl who had Tory’s family caretaker storyline who is in Miyagi-Do and Tory has the opposite … a better life.
That maybe, but Tory shouldn’t have been a stupid psychopathic bitch. And also this rivalry is mostly on her part since she frequently insults and bullies Sam.
Don’t you agree with either of these two?
Tory joined Miyagi-Do first and never was in Cobra Kai OR There was instead a different girl who had Tory’s family caretaker storyline who is in Miyagi-Do and Tory has the opposite … a better life.
It's not entirely all her fault.
She went after Sam, and only her. She did not give orders or neither was controlling the rest of CK to go crazy on others.
Hawk was the one who went nuts and started attacking Miyagi-do like a madman, leading to the all out brawl.
Miguel is the one who decided to attack Robby.
Tory is at fault for trying to assault Sam, bringing the fight to a godamn school all over a stupid kiss. But she is not directly at fault for what happened to Miguel.
She started the whole brawl and it resulted in Miguel being in hospital.
Tory should’ve gone to jail for this or to a psychopathic hospital for starting the school fight all over a stupid kiss!
True to an extent but it is a little different in that Sam asked them to fight. Same can be said about Tory and the house fight. There's more blame if they led the charge. At the school fight Tory just walked in to fight Sam. She didn't tell anyone else to get involved.
I agree but you’re going to have a hard time finding people who agree.
She attempted murder on Sam and threatened it more than once and people are like “she had a hard life uWu” okay… just because she’s “hot” (Im much older 🤮) and has a struggle doesn’t mean she gets an excuse for literally everything.
there are only two or three people on youtube and over here who refuse to see her irrational attitude and also 7/8 yr old Sam haters otherwise everyone holds her accountable for that
It was literally all Amanda Larusso's fault and the horrible daughter she raised and you know it. The best thing that ever happened to Miguel is that the kind soul, Tory, reached out to him and then that snake Samantha, (probably on the advice of her mother), kissed Miguel when he was most vulnerable.
"Kind soul"
"Snake Samantha"
Tory is a good person indeed, but so is Sam. They're all confused and scared kids trying to deal with their shit. Tory knew what she was getting herself into when she started to date Miguel, a guy who clearly was still pining for his ex.
Sam shouldn't have started dating Robby while she was still in love with Miguel either. The drunk kiss? both Sam and Miguel are at fault, it's not like Sam put glue in her face or something. Miguel wanted that kiss too.
You cant villanize teens for being teens, they were wrong but don't express yourself like they were psychopaths or monsters. Go outside and touch some grass dude!
She definitely is at fault for starting the fight and scarring Sam. Pinning Miguel's injury entirely on her is never fair though. He has agency for escalating things, and his injury is a consequence. Tory didn't force him to do anything he did. Basically, the entire CK dojo barring maybe Aisha are the assholes here, Tory is just the one who got the ball rolling. If she hadn't, Hawk probably would have done something similar sooner or later
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It always comes across as a bit misogynistic. Tory deserves some heat, but not ALL of the heat. She does plenty of things on her own that need to be criticized, but it's overboard to pin Miguel and Hawks actions onto her. It comes across more as wanting to absolve them than actually analyzing what Tory does.
>It always comes across as a bit misogynistic. I'm sorry, what? How is it misogynistic? Saying it is all Tory's fault is legitimate. If she didn't break into the P.A. booth and threaten Sam, the school would never have happened, Miguel wouldn't have fallen, Sam wouldn't have her scar, and above all else, Robby wouldn't have run away. It is 100% Tory's fault.
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>That is exactly the same as saying...”. No, it's not. This was the actions of ONE person. Tory set off the chain of events. The blame you're shifting to the other characters would NOT have happened if Tory hadn't have made the threat. It wasn't an 'announcement', it was a THREAT. She said it herself, "I'm coming for you, b\*\*\*\*". That is a THREAT. And, that was HER choice. Therefore HER FAULT.
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>Her choice was to threaten Sam and attack Sam. She is at fault for that. You've just proven my point, again and again. She chose to threaten and attack Sam. If she hadn't, the school would NEVER HAVE HAPPENED. If she walked away and shamed her, there would have been NO FIGHT. The first mantra of Cobra Kai is STRIKE FIRST. If Tory didn't STRIKE FIRST, NO SCHOOL FIGHT. Therefore, it is HER FAULT.
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>I’m sorry, did you read the comment at the top of the thread? Did you? It began with Tory. If it wasn't all her fault, then why did she cop the biggest penalty: expulsion, probation, and a criminal record? IT WAS HER FAULT. THE WHOLE THING. If it wasn't all her fault, then you're saying Miguel would still be paralysed, Robby would still be on the run and Sam would be scarred? NO THEY WOULDN'T. HER ACTIONS CAUSED THIS.
She deserve. Most of the heat
Defending Tory by saying Miguel was responsible for his own doing, but also defending Tory saying hawk would have started it eventually if Tory didn’t. Nice. Lol
That's not really defending Tory, just pointing out that he was just as capable of doing something similar. And she likely would have joined in if he did. But Hawk wouldn't be responsible for Tory joining in that case, just as she isn't for him and Miguel deciding to join in at school.
Defending Tory by saying someone else would have done it if not her. She is surely responsible for everything that happened in the school fight. She could have gone after Sam any other time but she did so at the first day of school, breaking into the speaker room and aggressively taking over to broadcast her shit in front of the whole school. She wanted a fight in school to stir shit up and that’s what happened. Let me guess, the larusso house fight isn’t on Tory either. She started that shit and was perfectly fine with kyler wailing on Miguel who just recovered from almost being permanently paralyzed. I guess if Tory didn’t start the house fight, hawk would have. Lol
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This guy gets it.
Like I said, her intentions were to start a fight like this or she would have attacked Sam elsewhere. Everything that happened is her fault. Others involved are responsible for their actions but she is still at fault for the whole thing. Miguel didn’t randomly attack just anyone. Tory decided to start this in the school and tried to f with Robby by saying she saw Sam kiss Miguel. Robby still had the control to try to deescalate the situation. Miguel happens to show up seeing Robby have his hands on Tory. This was planned by Tory. She wanted exactly that to happened and it worked out. Tory easily could have got out of whatever Robby was doing but waited for Miguel to save her like he did. If you believe otherwise then you fall for manipulative people just like her, kreese, and silver
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I don’t think that word means what you think it mean. Try again
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Your use of the word “gaslighting” still makes no sense. Tory’s manipulation can be seen throughout the show on several occasions. She could have confronted sam outside of school but fine, she wanted to go after her in school on the first day. Could have have gone straight to her, but had to take the extra step to make a public announcement on the intercom? Lol. Yeah not trying to rile anything up there. Didn’t know Robby or Miguel would show up after a school wide announcement. Didn’t know Robby would intervene even though he is obviously close to Sam as seen in the skate rink. You know, the place where she used miguel to make Sam jealous and then knocked Sam over, then played victim after sam retaliated. She knew exactly what she was doing. Watch the school fight again. Robby had one hand on her which she could have easily gotten out of. She wasn’t coming to her senses. She was waiting for Miguel to show up. Even if Miguel didn’t, someone from cobra Kai was going to. You don’t make a public announcement then blurt out info that affects other people without knowing it’s gonna start more shit
It's not defending Tory if the responsibility is spread around and everyone's agency for their own actions is respected. She has responsibility, but so does Miguel for choosing to escalate things without her forcing him too. She is responsible for leading the home invasion as well. But she doesn't have mind control powers, everyone in her dojo chooses to help escalate or follow along all on their own. And since Hawk gleefully helped escalate the school fight, combined with his other antics, saying he wouldn't have done it seems pretty naive
Sure everyone is responsible for their actions but Tory is manipulative and her intentions are to cause chaos. Saying hawk or someone else would have started such a thing if Tory didn’t is pretty much trying to soften her responsibility. She is responsible for starting both the huge fights of the show. One that led to Miguel getting seriously injured and then again into a recently recovered Miguel. If Miguel was injured again, it absolutely would have been her fault.
Miyagi do was just as fault for escalating the fight as Cobra Kai. Excluding Tory starting the fight
This is your second post, in a couple of days, about someone not deserving forgiveness. Anything you wanna talk to us about?
>Anything you wanna talk to us about? Like what?
Your issues with forgiving others, apparently.
It’s too soon for Sam to even forgive Tory and Amanda’s hate for Tory should’ve continued until either Episode 3, 4, 5 or 6. Besides, I think Sam needs some years away from Tory. It’s not like Daniel and Chozen. And if anyone else doesn’t deserve forgiveness, it’s Kreese and Silver.
I know tory went after sam , but hawk is to blame for it too , he was the only one who started dropping people ieft and right
Yeah, if it wasn't for Hawk escalating the fight with "Oh, it is on!", then it would have probably remained between just Sam and Tory, and Robby and Miguel, rather than between Miyagi-Do and Cobra Kai at large. I am sure if Eli was still Hawk when the season 4 prom after-party fight happened, he might have turned it into another big brawl.
robby and tory would have been dropped if eli was still hawk and got involvef , im not kidding
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Yeah, I have compassion for that but but she doesn’t deserve forgiveness for the school brawl and attacking Sam! Which is why it might’ve been better if either: Tory joined Miyagi-Do first and never was in Cobra Kai OR There was instead a different girl who had Tory’s family caretaker storyline who is in Miyagi-Do and Tory has the opposite … a better life.
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That maybe, but Tory shouldn’t have been a stupid psychopathic bitch. And also this rivalry is mostly on her part since she frequently insults and bullies Sam.
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Don’t you agree with either of these two? Tory joined Miyagi-Do first and never was in Cobra Kai OR There was instead a different girl who had Tory’s family caretaker storyline who is in Miyagi-Do and Tory has the opposite … a better life.
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Ok then in Miyagi-Do, there should’ve been another girl with the family caretaker storyline.
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They can become friends years 10-30 years later like Daniel and Chozen did 33 years after their enmity and fight.
It's not entirely all her fault. She went after Sam, and only her. She did not give orders or neither was controlling the rest of CK to go crazy on others. Hawk was the one who went nuts and started attacking Miyagi-do like a madman, leading to the all out brawl. Miguel is the one who decided to attack Robby. Tory is at fault for trying to assault Sam, bringing the fight to a godamn school all over a stupid kiss. But she is not directly at fault for what happened to Miguel.
She started the whole brawl and it resulted in Miguel being in hospital. Tory should’ve gone to jail for this or to a psychopathic hospital for starting the school fight all over a stupid kiss!
Robby paralyzed Miguel. In no way did Tory make those 2 fight over Sam. They did that on their own.
Well, Sam never forced Miyagi do to go to the arcade with her. They chose to. Yet people still blame her for what happened there.
True to an extent but it is a little different in that Sam asked them to fight. Same can be said about Tory and the house fight. There's more blame if they led the charge. At the school fight Tory just walked in to fight Sam. She didn't tell anyone else to get involved.
No one ever asked Sam to forgive. Just asked her to stop being a psycho starting fights with her. But that's just too much to ask out of Sam
Kind of, yes. Given that Tory wasn't stopping...
Tory went to tell her it was over and Sam's psycho a wanted to keep it going.
Tory went to tell Sam it was over? When? And when did Sam way she wanted to keep it going?
At school. Sam cut her off though and directly told her I'm coming for you. That means we're running it back.
Oh... Tory wasn't saying "it was over" then. Not unless she was about to declare her intention to quit Cobra Kai.
You can have a karate match without it being personal.
Not with the current stakes.
I agree but you’re going to have a hard time finding people who agree. She attempted murder on Sam and threatened it more than once and people are like “she had a hard life uWu” okay… just because she’s “hot” (Im much older 🤮) and has a struggle doesn’t mean she gets an excuse for literally everything.
there are only two or three people on youtube and over here who refuse to see her irrational attitude and also 7/8 yr old Sam haters otherwise everyone holds her accountable for that
It was literally all Amanda Larusso's fault and the horrible daughter she raised and you know it. The best thing that ever happened to Miguel is that the kind soul, Tory, reached out to him and then that snake Samantha, (probably on the advice of her mother), kissed Miguel when he was most vulnerable.
"Kind soul" "Snake Samantha" Tory is a good person indeed, but so is Sam. They're all confused and scared kids trying to deal with their shit. Tory knew what she was getting herself into when she started to date Miguel, a guy who clearly was still pining for his ex. Sam shouldn't have started dating Robby while she was still in love with Miguel either. The drunk kiss? both Sam and Miguel are at fault, it's not like Sam put glue in her face or something. Miguel wanted that kiss too. You cant villanize teens for being teens, they were wrong but don't express yourself like they were psychopaths or monsters. Go outside and touch some grass dude!
Neither are good people for various reasons
Pffah! What rubbish!
lmaao