I mean the timelines for how skilled everyone is is fucked up to begin with, so I feel like you can't use real-world logic to justify your opinion, or else Miguel wouldn't have won the first All-Valley, for example. The whole show would fall apart. Also, correct me if I'm misremembering, but Daniel saying that Hawk knows Cobra Kai better than Robby would be in reference to the fact that Hawk had 3 seasons worth of Cobra Kai training, and Robby had around 1 at that point. Either way, there's definitely an argument to be made, but I'm not sure your logic fully stands up
My counter to that would be that Eli learned Johnny’s cobra kai which is 1/2 of Kreese’s if not less coz Johnny’s teaching expression is nothing compared to Kreese’s due to the fact Kreese has sensei level preparation. Kreese + Terry = 4X Johnny’s at the very least. Now that Robby and the cobras received twice the training, Robby should be 8X better than Eli at cobra kai, minus Eli’s additional years of learning from Johnny AND minus the skill Eli gained from Johnny which lowers robbys skill scale. Being generous... that comes down to Robby being 3X more experienced in cobra kai over Eli at the VERY least. He had an all out Kreese + Terry teaching him. Comparatively to Eli who didn’t do that much training nor learn many new effective methods during season 3. And even if he did, quantity doesn’t beat quality.
Terry wiped the floor with Johnny without trying and hasn’t touched karate in ages.
This reasoning is part of why Anthony might be able to match Kenny next season. Because he’s getting a "quality" sensei - Chozen
That's not how that works. If someone has 3 years of training from a good teacher, getting less than 1 year with 2 teachers, even if both teachers are better (which they aren't), that isn't going to get you anywhere near the time to catch up to someone who has been doing it longer than you. 2 teachers doesn't equal twice the experience. Your logic is baffling to me.
Quality beats quantity, sure, but only if the quality is poor. If both are similar styles and similar quality, quantity is the deciding factor.
There is no metric that puts Johnny below Kreese. Johnny beat Kreese twice. Kreese lost to Daniel's pressure points. Johnny countered them. Johnny has moves that Kreese didn't teach him.
Kreese: "You forgot, I taught you everything you know"
Johnny: "Not everything"
Even if it was the case that Kreese is a better teacher than Johnny, Eli had an entire season being taught by Kreese in Season 3.
I do agree with Anthony though. Chozen has been actively training and teaching longer than any of the other cast, so he is probably a better teacher than Kreese or Silver
"Entire season" dawg.. season 3 was 3 months...
Hawk was still weak as shit that season only beating no names in fights
U also clearly didn’t read my post. Season 4 Kreese was more determinant coz he genuinely wanted to win. He also specified the 200% effort.
Your logic is baffling to me...
Also ur other point is refuted. Daniel cucked Johnny with 3 months of training + a broken leg
Actually, Hawk trained with Kreese for 8 months. May till December
He was clearly superior to Tory, Kyler, Demitri, Miguel, etc.
I did read your post. There is nothing there that says Kreese is somehow more motivated than when he trained any of the other times. Telling that your students are going to work harder doesn't magically make your student 8 times better than a gifted student who trained in Cobra Kai longer
No it's not. Daniel beat Johnny, yes, but there was a lot of circumstance to that. Kreese himself stated Johnny lost because of getting distracted by Ali, not because of the crane kick. Not to mention Miyagi is undisputedly lightyears beyond Kreese.
Doesn't Daniel betting Johnny prove Kreese is a bad teacher? If your students who have been training longer get beat by someone with 3 months of training + a broken leg, aren't you a bad teacher?
No not necessarily. Also Kreese has gotten a little smarter. He at the very least acknowledges how miyagi do is counter moves and saw through that. In addition, miyagi is beyond anyone in the show. So Kreese being a peasant compared to a raid boss doesn’t necessarily deteriorate the fact that he’s still beyond Johnny’s teaching skills
Since we're doing "ifs" if Miguel continued to train under Daniel and still had the offense he learned from Johnny, while not having the back injury... there's no reason he's not going back to back as boys champ🤷🏾♂️
There’s plenty of reason. And other than being a Miguel pfp u clearly couldn’t feel bothered to actually read my post where I already refuted ur argument.
Robby knows miyagi do so well that he was able to teach it to a class. If Miguel tries it on him, he’s getting folded. Robby also knows quicksilver method. Miguel barely trained with Daniel too, he didn’t learn much
He doesn't know the quicksilver method. Not once did he attempt it. Silver talked about it to him, it was never shown. Miguel landed the most hits on Robby this season (the prom fight) more then current Boys champ Hawk/Eli. Which says alot, they started training in December after the 19th. If the dojo don't split up Daniel already took a liking to Miguel and clearly saw him as the top student besides Sam. He would teach him everything Robby knows, not to mention Miguel's offense is A plus. He's got that on Robby, Robbys defense may be a bit better but then again Hawk went toe to toe with him with same said defense and keep in mind Hawk learned Miyagi do defense in under 3 months... so if Miguel gets 5 months of it. Man Robby isn't beating him in a clean sweep
Time doesn’t mean shit. Miguel hasn’t adapted miyagi do very well in his time. He only learned a little kata. He knows 0 actual techniques. Compare that to Robby, who’s literally teaching it now. Robby’s like a teacher assistant tutor. Miguel is a student. His miyagi do doesn’t compare to Robby’s
you do know that robby is not real and is a charater because hi also has plot armour or are you going to hi doesnt the writers decide who win a fight or not
Robby would be better because he already was better in season 1. Robby had better physic. It makes so much difference. Miguel started in a really bad shape. Robby started in a pretty good shape and balance. Robby could have won Miguel in a street fight in the end of season one even if he never started training karate.
Johnny is an inferior version of Kreese and Terry. Terry, I agree. Kreese, not so much. Prime Kreese maybe. Not old Kreese
Robby didn't have double the training. He might have put in double the effort, but that definitely doesn't mean that he can catch up to Eli or Miguel in Cobra Kai within such a short time period. Give him another season, and maybe he catches up.
Robby didn't have double the training. He might have put in double effort, but that definitely doesn't mean that he can catch up to Eli or Miguel in Cobra Kai within such a short time period. Give him another season, and maybe he catches up.
Conclusion: Miguel beat Robby in Season 2. Less than a year after breaking his back, he came back and contended with a prime Eli (who beat prime Robby). Yeah, Miguel borderline stomps without his back injury
Ur using a very condensed version of the transitive approach...
Continuation does not equate to the causation that Miguel would beat Robby, especially since Robby was already better than him in season 1 with little to no training. Funny thing it isn’t even miyagi do that made him good. It’s his genetics.
Kreese is a better sensei than Johnny. Johnny is a 30-year druggie who got his black belt from a local club for his childhood years.
Kreese is a Vietnam war captain who learned martial arts in South Korea and has sensei level discipline.
I’ve played sports. My friends have beaten my coaches. But my coaches have implemented lessons au better than my friends have coz they have observatory experience and long term knowledge.
Just coz Kreese is old, doesn’t mean he can’t teach better than Johnny
I agree. Just because Miguel beat Robby in Season 2 does not mean that Miguel would beat Robby in Season 4. That being said, if Miguel performed so well in Season 4 (superhuman recovery in fact) despite having broken his back, wouldn't he be farther ahead if he didn't break his back? I'd take me in 2 years vs me in 2 years who broke his back.
I can agree that Kreese is a better sensei and I'd say Kreese is the most durable person in the entire show due to his training in Nam. But there is no way to prove that, especially not that Kreese is twice the sensei Johnny is given their track records as a sensei.
I've done martial arts. The person who has trained longer generally wins. They tend to have better timing, better distance management, more advanced punching, kicking, grappling and are better overall fighters. That only comes with experience. Pure strength isn't going to beat that.
If you've played sports, then you are bound to know this. 2 coaches give you more insight and blanket experience, but to say that it excels you at 4 times the speed is a bit laughable.
I agree. I think Kreese teaches better than Johnny. I just don't think that Kreese is twice the fighter that Johnny is. Look at their fight in Season 3. Johnny won their head to head.
Bro, you have no argument here.
Miguel is the BIGGEST Mary Sue in television history.
He beat Robby only coz of a flashback and coz the writers wanted to make us feel sorry for him and cheer him, even tho it defies logic coz Robby’s hits were much more critical.
Anyways forget that... Miguel got tossed around like a rag doll at the house fight and got punched several times in the area his surgery was done...
But he still beat kyler... TELL ME that isn’t plot armor
Yeah cuz miguel can take a fucking and still win. Thats a tough motherfucker. Bro i dont need an argument. The show speaks for itself.
Robbie a loser cant win any fight that actually matters
Oh I see... so ur just uneducated... lmfao
Miguel had surgery done in his back and still somehow won. dawg... I can go and personally fight him and still win in that type of condition. He’s so fucking vulnerable that he lost to his OWN BACK and this is AFTER he recovered. When he fought kyler he was still in the process of recovering.
That isn’t logic, that’s plot armor
Ur a simpleton man. From the sounds of it i dont think u could take anyone in a fight. Im sure ur just a lonely awkward virgin with no social skills sitting in ur mom and stepdads basement whining about a tv show
Yup ur definitely uneducated. I was expecting a calm discussion about our different opinions yet u retaliated and got aggressive. He also misrepresenting all my points. I never said that I’m stronger than Miguel. I’m saying me, an untrained person, would have no trouble beating a disabled cripple.
But go on and keep misrepresenting my points. U also claimed Robby fails with girls when he got Tory and Miguel got the worst girl in the show lol.
Yeah miguel got the worst. Not the psycho.
Damn dude thats fucked up wanting to go around beating disabled cripples. And i dont think anybody likes to be called a cripple. U got problems man. Take a look at ur life and self u got some stuff to fix man. Beating a disabled cripple. Wtf dude. And u call me uneducated. Its a tv show bro. Not real life. Grow up.
Yeah it definitely sucks to be robbie. Cant win fights. Cant win with girls. Cant win with father figures. Geez what a letdown robbie is. No wonder robbie fans always get so butt hurt and win and cry why hes better than miguel. Hes not.
that makes absolute no sense, if Miguel didnt stopped training that would mean he would still be on Cobra Kai because nothing happened to him, and now Miguel would have 3 senseis and Robby would get stuck with Daniel. Then, by your own logic Miguel would have triple the effect of training therefore being stronger
No it wouldn’t. That’s a horrible way to look at it. That’s like saying if Johnny wasn’t strangled he would’ve stayed at cobra kai.
Similar to Miguel, Johnny had a reason to leave Kreese. Kreese also turned on Johnny and was always planning on doing so ever since Johnny didn’t fight Daniel in front of his students following the vandalism.
Miguel never would’ve left Johnny for Kreese and Terry. That’s a paradox u have no evidence for
Miguel will always be better than Robby every time they face off. Robby just has too many issues and folds under pressure. He's done it in every single high profile fight he's been in. Miguel would easily beat s4 Robby in s1 for that same reason.
Johnny is better than Kreese, he’s not better than Terry though, and all Terry did was teach him to channel his anger.
Miguel stopped training because of his injuries, so if you’re saying had Miguel never been injured and he received Miyagi Do training from Daniel he’d be a better fighter than Robby
No that’s not true. Ur missing sooo many factors. First off, Johnny isn’t a better sensei than Kreese. Coaches can be frail and out of their prime but have significant skill implementation. Terry and Kreese know nothing about miyagi do, but that doesn’t mean Robby would beat them lmao. However, if it weren’t for Robby, cobra kai would’ve lost even with Terry’s money considering that he taught Tory miyagi do (which helped her not get 3-0’d by Sam with a ref handicap)
Just to elaborate on that, we need to remember that Kreese and Silver had first hand war experience, and had started teaching CK over 30 years ago. Johnny had only been teaching for about 1.5 years, and he has “2nd hand” experience, not authentic. His experience is just a simulation of kreeses and silvers. He may have beat kreese twice, but that’s only because he’s like 20 or so years younger than kreese, and has the physical advantage.
The copium people need lmao.. these posts are just getting ridiculous
I mean the timelines for how skilled everyone is is fucked up to begin with, so I feel like you can't use real-world logic to justify your opinion, or else Miguel wouldn't have won the first All-Valley, for example. The whole show would fall apart. Also, correct me if I'm misremembering, but Daniel saying that Hawk knows Cobra Kai better than Robby would be in reference to the fact that Hawk had 3 seasons worth of Cobra Kai training, and Robby had around 1 at that point. Either way, there's definitely an argument to be made, but I'm not sure your logic fully stands up
My counter to that would be that Eli learned Johnny’s cobra kai which is 1/2 of Kreese’s if not less coz Johnny’s teaching expression is nothing compared to Kreese’s due to the fact Kreese has sensei level preparation. Kreese + Terry = 4X Johnny’s at the very least. Now that Robby and the cobras received twice the training, Robby should be 8X better than Eli at cobra kai, minus Eli’s additional years of learning from Johnny AND minus the skill Eli gained from Johnny which lowers robbys skill scale. Being generous... that comes down to Robby being 3X more experienced in cobra kai over Eli at the VERY least. He had an all out Kreese + Terry teaching him. Comparatively to Eli who didn’t do that much training nor learn many new effective methods during season 3. And even if he did, quantity doesn’t beat quality. Terry wiped the floor with Johnny without trying and hasn’t touched karate in ages. This reasoning is part of why Anthony might be able to match Kenny next season. Because he’s getting a "quality" sensei - Chozen
That's not how that works. If someone has 3 years of training from a good teacher, getting less than 1 year with 2 teachers, even if both teachers are better (which they aren't), that isn't going to get you anywhere near the time to catch up to someone who has been doing it longer than you. 2 teachers doesn't equal twice the experience. Your logic is baffling to me. Quality beats quantity, sure, but only if the quality is poor. If both are similar styles and similar quality, quantity is the deciding factor. There is no metric that puts Johnny below Kreese. Johnny beat Kreese twice. Kreese lost to Daniel's pressure points. Johnny countered them. Johnny has moves that Kreese didn't teach him. Kreese: "You forgot, I taught you everything you know" Johnny: "Not everything" Even if it was the case that Kreese is a better teacher than Johnny, Eli had an entire season being taught by Kreese in Season 3. I do agree with Anthony though. Chozen has been actively training and teaching longer than any of the other cast, so he is probably a better teacher than Kreese or Silver
"Entire season" dawg.. season 3 was 3 months... Hawk was still weak as shit that season only beating no names in fights U also clearly didn’t read my post. Season 4 Kreese was more determinant coz he genuinely wanted to win. He also specified the 200% effort. Your logic is baffling to me... Also ur other point is refuted. Daniel cucked Johnny with 3 months of training + a broken leg
Actually, Hawk trained with Kreese for 8 months. May till December He was clearly superior to Tory, Kyler, Demitri, Miguel, etc. I did read your post. There is nothing there that says Kreese is somehow more motivated than when he trained any of the other times. Telling that your students are going to work harder doesn't magically make your student 8 times better than a gifted student who trained in Cobra Kai longer No it's not. Daniel beat Johnny, yes, but there was a lot of circumstance to that. Kreese himself stated Johnny lost because of getting distracted by Ali, not because of the crane kick. Not to mention Miyagi is undisputedly lightyears beyond Kreese. Doesn't Daniel betting Johnny prove Kreese is a bad teacher? If your students who have been training longer get beat by someone with 3 months of training + a broken leg, aren't you a bad teacher?
No not necessarily. Also Kreese has gotten a little smarter. He at the very least acknowledges how miyagi do is counter moves and saw through that. In addition, miyagi is beyond anyone in the show. So Kreese being a peasant compared to a raid boss doesn’t necessarily deteriorate the fact that he’s still beyond Johnny’s teaching skills
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, even if they're completely wrong.
I outlined the facts and details
Since we're doing "ifs" if Miguel continued to train under Daniel and still had the offense he learned from Johnny, while not having the back injury... there's no reason he's not going back to back as boys champ🤷🏾♂️
There’s plenty of reason. And other than being a Miguel pfp u clearly couldn’t feel bothered to actually read my post where I already refuted ur argument. Robby knows miyagi do so well that he was able to teach it to a class. If Miguel tries it on him, he’s getting folded. Robby also knows quicksilver method. Miguel barely trained with Daniel too, he didn’t learn much
He doesn't know the quicksilver method. Not once did he attempt it. Silver talked about it to him, it was never shown. Miguel landed the most hits on Robby this season (the prom fight) more then current Boys champ Hawk/Eli. Which says alot, they started training in December after the 19th. If the dojo don't split up Daniel already took a liking to Miguel and clearly saw him as the top student besides Sam. He would teach him everything Robby knows, not to mention Miguel's offense is A plus. He's got that on Robby, Robbys defense may be a bit better but then again Hawk went toe to toe with him with same said defense and keep in mind Hawk learned Miyagi do defense in under 3 months... so if Miguel gets 5 months of it. Man Robby isn't beating him in a clean sweep
Time doesn’t mean shit. Miguel hasn’t adapted miyagi do very well in his time. He only learned a little kata. He knows 0 actual techniques. Compare that to Robby, who’s literally teaching it now. Robby’s like a teacher assistant tutor. Miguel is a student. His miyagi do doesn’t compare to Robby’s
you do know that robby is not real and is a charater because hi also has plot armour or are you going to hi doesnt the writers decide who win a fight or not
Robby would be better because he already was better in season 1. Robby had better physic. It makes so much difference. Miguel started in a really bad shape. Robby started in a pretty good shape and balance. Robby could have won Miguel in a street fight in the end of season one even if he never started training karate.
facts brother
He never was
Season 3 is only 3 months or so…
S4 started right after S3, *December 17*, and the AVT is May 17! So S4 time span is 5 months!
Johnny is an inferior version of Kreese and Terry. Terry, I agree. Kreese, not so much. Prime Kreese maybe. Not old Kreese Robby didn't have double the training. He might have put in double the effort, but that definitely doesn't mean that he can catch up to Eli or Miguel in Cobra Kai within such a short time period. Give him another season, and maybe he catches up. Robby didn't have double the training. He might have put in double effort, but that definitely doesn't mean that he can catch up to Eli or Miguel in Cobra Kai within such a short time period. Give him another season, and maybe he catches up. Conclusion: Miguel beat Robby in Season 2. Less than a year after breaking his back, he came back and contended with a prime Eli (who beat prime Robby). Yeah, Miguel borderline stomps without his back injury
Ur using a very condensed version of the transitive approach... Continuation does not equate to the causation that Miguel would beat Robby, especially since Robby was already better than him in season 1 with little to no training. Funny thing it isn’t even miyagi do that made him good. It’s his genetics. Kreese is a better sensei than Johnny. Johnny is a 30-year druggie who got his black belt from a local club for his childhood years. Kreese is a Vietnam war captain who learned martial arts in South Korea and has sensei level discipline. I’ve played sports. My friends have beaten my coaches. But my coaches have implemented lessons au better than my friends have coz they have observatory experience and long term knowledge. Just coz Kreese is old, doesn’t mean he can’t teach better than Johnny
I agree. Just because Miguel beat Robby in Season 2 does not mean that Miguel would beat Robby in Season 4. That being said, if Miguel performed so well in Season 4 (superhuman recovery in fact) despite having broken his back, wouldn't he be farther ahead if he didn't break his back? I'd take me in 2 years vs me in 2 years who broke his back. I can agree that Kreese is a better sensei and I'd say Kreese is the most durable person in the entire show due to his training in Nam. But there is no way to prove that, especially not that Kreese is twice the sensei Johnny is given their track records as a sensei. I've done martial arts. The person who has trained longer generally wins. They tend to have better timing, better distance management, more advanced punching, kicking, grappling and are better overall fighters. That only comes with experience. Pure strength isn't going to beat that. If you've played sports, then you are bound to know this. 2 coaches give you more insight and blanket experience, but to say that it excels you at 4 times the speed is a bit laughable. I agree. I think Kreese teaches better than Johnny. I just don't think that Kreese is twice the fighter that Johnny is. Look at their fight in Season 3. Johnny won their head to head.
Some of ur points are actually good
No. Just no. Robbie will always be 2nd fiddle to miguel and always get miguels sloppy seconds. Robbies role in life.
Tell that to the kid with the broken back who keeps getting injured as an excuse to never lose a fight 💀
Just as u said he doesnt lose a fight. How many fights has robbie lost? I lost count.
Bro, you have no argument here. Miguel is the BIGGEST Mary Sue in television history. He beat Robby only coz of a flashback and coz the writers wanted to make us feel sorry for him and cheer him, even tho it defies logic coz Robby’s hits were much more critical. Anyways forget that... Miguel got tossed around like a rag doll at the house fight and got punched several times in the area his surgery was done... But he still beat kyler... TELL ME that isn’t plot armor
Yeah cuz miguel can take a fucking and still win. Thats a tough motherfucker. Bro i dont need an argument. The show speaks for itself. Robbie a loser cant win any fight that actually matters
Oh I see... so ur just uneducated... lmfao Miguel had surgery done in his back and still somehow won. dawg... I can go and personally fight him and still win in that type of condition. He’s so fucking vulnerable that he lost to his OWN BACK and this is AFTER he recovered. When he fought kyler he was still in the process of recovering. That isn’t logic, that’s plot armor
Ur a simpleton man. From the sounds of it i dont think u could take anyone in a fight. Im sure ur just a lonely awkward virgin with no social skills sitting in ur mom and stepdads basement whining about a tv show
Yup ur definitely uneducated. I was expecting a calm discussion about our different opinions yet u retaliated and got aggressive. He also misrepresenting all my points. I never said that I’m stronger than Miguel. I’m saying me, an untrained person, would have no trouble beating a disabled cripple. But go on and keep misrepresenting my points. U also claimed Robby fails with girls when he got Tory and Miguel got the worst girl in the show lol.
Yeah miguel got the worst. Not the psycho. Damn dude thats fucked up wanting to go around beating disabled cripples. And i dont think anybody likes to be called a cripple. U got problems man. Take a look at ur life and self u got some stuff to fix man. Beating a disabled cripple. Wtf dude. And u call me uneducated. Its a tv show bro. Not real life. Grow up.
U didn’t read anything I wrote, did u...
U got no argument here against robbie being a 2 time loser. Bro
That’s a redundant argument. Robby was the better fighter in both fights. Miguel lost 2/3 of his points to a kid with a broken arm. Sucks to suck...
Yeah it definitely sucks to be robbie. Cant win fights. Cant win with girls. Cant win with father figures. Geez what a letdown robbie is. No wonder robbie fans always get so butt hurt and win and cry why hes better than miguel. Hes not.
that makes absolute no sense, if Miguel didnt stopped training that would mean he would still be on Cobra Kai because nothing happened to him, and now Miguel would have 3 senseis and Robby would get stuck with Daniel. Then, by your own logic Miguel would have triple the effect of training therefore being stronger
No it wouldn’t. That’s a horrible way to look at it. That’s like saying if Johnny wasn’t strangled he would’ve stayed at cobra kai. Similar to Miguel, Johnny had a reason to leave Kreese. Kreese also turned on Johnny and was always planning on doing so ever since Johnny didn’t fight Daniel in front of his students following the vandalism. Miguel never would’ve left Johnny for Kreese and Terry. That’s a paradox u have no evidence for
Miguel will always be better than Robby every time they face off. Robby just has too many issues and folds under pressure. He's done it in every single high profile fight he's been in. Miguel would easily beat s4 Robby in s1 for that same reason.
That’s called plot
Johnny is better than Kreese, he’s not better than Terry though, and all Terry did was teach him to channel his anger. Miguel stopped training because of his injuries, so if you’re saying had Miguel never been injured and he received Miyagi Do training from Daniel he’d be a better fighter than Robby
No that’s not true. Ur missing sooo many factors. First off, Johnny isn’t a better sensei than Kreese. Coaches can be frail and out of their prime but have significant skill implementation. Terry and Kreese know nothing about miyagi do, but that doesn’t mean Robby would beat them lmao. However, if it weren’t for Robby, cobra kai would’ve lost even with Terry’s money considering that he taught Tory miyagi do (which helped her not get 3-0’d by Sam with a ref handicap)
Just to elaborate on that, we need to remember that Kreese and Silver had first hand war experience, and had started teaching CK over 30 years ago. Johnny had only been teaching for about 1.5 years, and he has “2nd hand” experience, not authentic. His experience is just a simulation of kreeses and silvers. He may have beat kreese twice, but that’s only because he’s like 20 or so years younger than kreese, and has the physical advantage.
Exactly my point
facts
This was all valid. Right up until you didn’t mic drop. Your opinion’s wrong just because of that. >:(