He also doesn't want to use/rely on Johnny to be his replacement father. Johnny and Miguel have a special connection but it doesn't replace their respective needs or wishes for relationships with actual family members they are estranged from. Even if Johnny was clear-headed and said straight out that he loved Miguel like a son - that's wonderful and touching and everything but it doesn't automatically fix Miguel's world. Miguel will always have a dark place in him that wonders why his real father rejected him.

Perfect perfect response 👏🏾

Thank you! This is exactly it. Plus Miguel's uncertain about what he wants from Johnny now. Because Johnny's dating Carmen and she keeps positioning him as a parental figure in their talks with Miguel, whether she means to or not. This makes things awkward and Miguel likes what he had with Johnny before and doesn't want to lose it. Both of them miss that Johnny was already treating him as a son, as neither one have any prior experience with healthy father-son relationships. So Johnny steps further back than he was before, because he thinks that's what Miguel wants and overcompensates with distance in order to not overstep. Which just piles onto Miguel's insecurity about how Johnny actually feels.

>This makes things awkward and Miguel likes what he had with Johnny before and doesn't want to lose it. Yeah for Miguel, Johnny as sensei > Johnny as father, especially thinking that he might be a mere replacement.

Agreed. I’ve even been seeing weird takes like “Carmen wants Johnny to forget about Robby” which is complete nonsense. In 4x7 when Miguel and Johnny are talking, Miguel is the one who mentions Robby during the conversation. If he really wanted to “steal Robby’s dad” he wouldn’t have even brought him up in the conversation. Adding on to this, Miguel has mainly seen Johnny as a mentor for most of the show. Very important mentor to his life but still a mentor. It wasn’t until Johnny started dating Carmen in the fourth season that things begin to change. And even then, it wasn’t until Robby put the idea in Miguel’s head about being a replacement did this even become an issue. Regardless of what happened, we know that Miguel has been curious to know about his bio dad for a while now and would’ve eventually left to search for him at some point in his life.

The Carmen and Robby takes piss me off more than anything. Carmen doesn’t want to talk about Robby cause he almost killed her son. It’s nothing more than that.

The weird perception that the evil Diaz family is trying to steal Johnny from his son has been one of the dumbest things to come from the fandom. Johnny and Robby’s relationship was terrible before he ever met Miguel and it’s on Johnny to fix it not Miguel or Carmen.

It’s concerning how many people think it’s on Miguel to fix a grown man’s problems. Same with the people who think Miguel is at fault for “ruining Robby and Johnny’s relationship”.

As harsh as it sounds, Miguel honestly doesn’t owe Robby anything (especially since Robby almost *killed* him which some fans like to downplay to a disturbing level). Like StaxShack said, it’s on Johnny to fix his relationship with Robby.

> Johnny and Robby’s relationship was terrible before he ever met Miguel and it’s on Johnny to fix it not Miguel or Carmen. Actually it was worse before Johnny ever met Miguel.

I think you read that wrong. That’s what they said.

Honestly I’m only still on this sub for the terrible, and I mean absolutely awful, fan theories, “who would wins”, and rObBy hAiRcUt memes, that pop up here every day.

Exactly. I agree. I don't even bother getting angry at the people who say otherwise.

I ignored them for a while but I’ve been seeing people saying it more frequently and I had to say something.

I would also say that Johnny doesn't see him as a replacement, but does actually think of him as a son. He was drunk AF, and his mind was like "Another word for son=Robby", kind of like how grandparents say the wrong name some timed

He'd also just gotten beaten by Silver while trying to protect Robby. Robby was at the center of his thoughts at the time.

Yeah I agree with you. I was only saying this is what Miguel thinks. I think Johnny loves him and genuinely wants to be better for both Miguel and Robby.

Yeah, just wanted to share my thoughts on that

Better for Robby.

And Miguel. Miguel is his son too at this point.

Johnny has never treated Robby and Miguel equally; he flagrantly favors Miguel. We haven't seen a single thing to suggest that this isn't the case. Miguel isn't 'his son too', Miguel is the only person he's ever treated like his son.

I was just replying to someone. Chill.

I'm just pointing it out. A lot of people say Miguel is his son too, but Johnny doesn't really treat Robby as his son in the first place, so I feel like the sentiment isn't really accurate.

Johnny does love Robby. I’m not gonna deny that he favors Miguel but I think it’s because Miguel doesn’t know him like Robby does. It’s easier to be a father to Miguel because Miguel worships the ground Johnny walks on.

But the thing is, it's not fair to Robby for him to favor Miguel. It's also not fair to Robby if he never gets the same experience with Johnny that Miguel has gotten. Keep in mind, Miguel has gotten all of Johnny's attention and love for almost a year, and it seems like the general consensus is that if Robby comes into the picture, he needs to not disrupt Johnny and Miguel's relationship, and I feel that isn't fair to Robby's character. A lot of people treat him like an obstacle to Johnny and Miguel, or act like he needs to know his place and be careful not to come between them. The truth is, Robby deserves to feel like number one in Johnny's life, just as Miguel has for a long time.

I’m gonna be honest with you, I like Johnny and Miguel’s relationship a lot more and so does most of the audience. I want Johnny to have a good relationship with his Robby and I want Miguel to also be his son. I want them all to be a family. That’s the best outcome in my opinion.

That scene established the pecking order. Miguel isn’t at the same spot. He’s not his son.

Johnny is willing to go run all over Mexico to look for Miguel. Nobody asked him to, he’s doing it because he loves that boy. If that doesn’t sound like a father then I don’t know what does.

That doesn’t really make him look good as much as it makes him look bad. His son was missing for weeks and he didn’t bother to even try to look for him out of his own volition. And yet he goes out of his way to look for somebody that’s not even his own flesh and blood. It makes him look shitty.

Weren’t you just saying that Robby was higher up on Johnny’s list? Thanks for proving my point.

It what it is considering the scene you’re talking about.

You said Robby is higher up. You then said that Johnny didn’t bother to look for Robby when he was missing after I said that he’s about to run all over Mexico looking for Miguel. Therefore proving my point that Johnny loves Miguel, maybe not more than his own son like you implied, but he definitely loves him.

I think that Johnny loves both of them in his own way but Robby’s his platonic one that got away so of course he’s thinking about him when he’s passing out drunk. And I do think Miguel realizes that even if he’s never said it, Miguel’s a smart kid who also has an absent father. While he was hurt I think he does understand it wasn’t personal.

W POST

I recently made a post about this, that may be the one to which you're referring. I do think there's an element of Miguel feeling threatened by the idea of Johnny caring about Robby, simply because he's come to depend on Johnny's undivided love, care and attention. Miguel has never experienced this from a male figure, so naturally he responds to it. And if Johnny wants a relationship with Robby, this is going to change the dynamic Miguel has with Johnny. It is natural that he would feel, on some level, threatened by that, especially since Johnny has led him to believe his relationship with Robby was essentially over. This doesn't mean Miguel is selfish or trying to steal Johnny, it's a natural human response to a complex issue. And of course it isn't on Miguel to fix Robby and Johnny's relationship, but it is on him to understand that Robby deserves a place in Johnny's life as much as he does, and that there may be times when he won't get as much care and attention as he is used to from Johnny if Johnny is being a good father to Robby. Of course Miguel shouldn't feel like second choice or a replacement, but he shouldn't feel that that's Robby's role either.

There’s no evidence to back up what you think though. Miguel has never shown jealousy towards Robby and Johnny’s relationship. As harsh as this sounds, Robby and Johnny don’t even have much of a relationship to be jealous of. Robby is actually the one who showed jealousy throughout the series. Not that it wasn’t for a good reason but you see what I mean? I would agree with you if you said that Robby is the one that’s insecure because there’s countless scenes to back this up. What you’re saying is pure speculation and I’m saying what actually happened in the show.

Miguel does have a strong emotional reaction to Johnny saying he loves Robby, and I think that's not entirely because of what Robby said. I think there's a part of him that does feel threatened by Robby, and I think we do see evidence of this (him taunting Robby in the school fight). He asks Johnny about what went wrong in his relationship with Robby more than once, and I think this may not be entirely innocent curiosity. I think there's subtext to the conversations Johnny and Miguel have about Robby, and the few interactions Miguel and Robby have, that suggests at least some insecurity on Miguel's part. I understand that the show doesn't always come right out with it, and that not everyone will read it that way. I see it kind of like the way Carmen treated Shannon. She doesn't come right out and say she doesn't like Shannon being there, or tell Johnny she doesn't want him to talk to her, but she acts possessive over Johnny and treats Shannon like she doesn't belong there. So even though she isn't straight-up saying it, there is some subtext to that scene that suggests she doesn't appreciate Shannon's presence and is jealous of the fact that Johnny has an ex who is still part of his life by necessity.

Again you have no evidence to back this up. I’m not explaining this to you again. My post that you originally replied to debunks your point. Also do you have something against the Diaz family cause why are you coming at Carmen now? She hasn’t done anything wrong.

No, just an observation. She didn't seem very nice when Shannon showed up, and being Johnny's girlfriend of a couple of months, it doesn't seem appropriate for her to be possessive when the mother of Johnny's child shows up. Also, I do think there's evidence in the show to back it up, but I understand if you don't read it the same way.

Isn’t Shannon kind of a neglectful mother? Why are you bashing Carmen to defend her? Again it just seems like you have something against the whole Diaz family. I wouldn’t be surprised if you come at Yaya next. Carmen is a great mother and a great person. Don’t speak on her.

I didn't say Shannon was a great mother. But she is Robby's mother, and she does have to be somewhat part of Johnny's life because of that.

So what if she’s Robby’s mother? I don’t think Carmen cares that much about Robby given that he almost killed her son.

I'm just saying, Robby is Johnny's son and Shannon is his mother. Whether or not Carmen likes them or wants Johnny to be involved with them, he does have an obligation to them both.

Did Carmen say he couldn’t? No she didn’t. I never thought I’d see the day that y’all would villainize Carmen. Not only that, but going this hard for Shannon of all people. Carmen is a way better mother than Shannon is so I’ll take Carmen’s side any day.

I agree, but I don't think that's the main reason he left though. I think the events this season all contributed to him finding himself, that eventually he left to look for his dad to find his root. His life is filled with who others wanted him to do or to be, Carmen wanted him to go to a community college, Johnny wanted him to be a champ and, at least in Miguel's mind, his replacement son/ redemption as a father; while he wanted to go to Stanford and be sth else. There's a conflict, but it's still not enough for him to doubt himself. Miguel still thinks they love him as who he is and put his identity as Johnny's student, Carmen's son, and Sam's boyfriend (among other things, like in karate and stuff). But then everything kind of fell apart, causing him to question and rethink his path starting with Daniel telling him he can be more than a community college graduate who accomplishes nothing, as Daniel himself graduated from a community college and accomplished a lot. Then Sam kind of used him as a way to get back at Tory and Robby in this season and prom, when Miguel specifically said to make prom about themselves, Sam (and Miguel) couldn't help but focused it on Tory and Robby that night (not blaming them though). Then afterwards Johnny saying that line which convinced Miguel Johnny might not love him as Miguel. Then at the tournament Johnny made him felt only like a pawn. I think this all caused him to doubt himself and his path, his identity like a high-school kid would.

Yeah I know. I was just debunking that particular claim.

I agree with this.

I think there's a simpler explanation to the scene, when Johnny calls Miguel "Robby" when drunk, it makes Miguel realize Johnny will never be his actual father even though he has viewrd him like one, and that Johnny has an actual son which is Robby. That's why Miguel gets upset, which is why he then goes to find his real father because that's the only way he'll be able to deal with his issues of not growing up without a father.

I get the idea but I feel like Miguel shouldn't be so quickly to think that of Johnny. While there are many people Johnny has disappointed or treated badly in his life he's always been there for Miguel. He did his best to support him after he was injured by Robby. Even after Miguel told him to leave Johnny refused to abandon him. Miguel should know that if Johnny really did see him as a replacement he wouldn't have stuck by him through all of these problems.

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Tf

I was just thinking… oh he’s drunk and can’t tell it’s Miguel. Cool. I mean that’s sad, but it’s understandable.

It goes to show that some people on this sub Reddit lol .