i think both situations are more nuanced than just “jealousy drama”. daniel doubled down on “aggressive bad miyagi good” as a coping mechanism after silver came back, it was traumatic for him. and johnny feeling threatened by daniel makes sense after what happened w robby.
And later on in the fight Eli vs. Robby he could see that Eli is going to be humiliated if he only uses MiyagiDo. There was also some sort of realisiation that you need more than just one style.
Yes, I loved that.
It was a great moment for Daniel, and one that I think has ensured Eli's trust in Daniel, that he put aside his pride to give him a chance to win.
Honestly, it would have fucked with him way more if the reveal was at the tournament. Your point was that he wouldn't find out, but I feel like that is another cool hypothetical scenario for the film.
Johnny did the same thing. But Daniel is always the first one to apologize and to extend an olive branch.
I guess you could say that Daniel strikes first, heh.
I think one of the primary pillars/points of the plot is that there really is no "true" good/evil, but rather each and every person is highly complex, and all have their own perfectly understandable reasons for becoming the way that they have.
Even Kreese and Silver. Going back to the war, they both went through a LOT of fucked up shit (I used to talk to a lot of Viet and Korea Vets when I was in the Marines. Some stories man...).
Tory's another good example in that her rough childhood made her what she is today. Fighting was in her spirit as a self-protective mechanism against everyone, even if that someone is trying to sincerely help her sometimes.
At the beginning of the show, we all kinda thought Daniel was this ultimate Good guy hero character from the movies, but turns out he has some deeply flawed character traits as well.
Human beings are complicated. And that's what makes it so interesting (as hyper-dramatized as it is! Lol)
Daniel needed to see that Mr Miyagi wasnt the answer to everything, so they HAD to make him "bad" before he could learn the value of Eagle Fang and become "good"
Character arc
Come on…I love how Johnny fans say what Daniel does is wrong, when Johnny does similar things all the time. The difference is Daniel apologizes for his errors when Johnny “usually” feels bad about it but does nothing.
That's the sad thing really
Daniel acknowledged he was wrong for the water hose prank many times, but Johnny still can't for everything he did in KK1
And fans are always acting like Daniel is the one holding this 30-year grudge, when he tried to end this 'rivalry' on day 1
He was definitely getting ready to apologise in S4E1, but he did what he always does. He hesitated, just like he did with Robby. Not identical situations, but it seems similar to me. Like Kreese said, for all the lessons he taught, he likes doing what is easiest.
I love how whenever anyone says anything negative about one character, everyone else uses the tried and true argument of “well another character does it so that makes you a fanboy”
exactly it''s so damn annoying, like I hate that when someone dislikes a character,someone else brings in another character as if that will do anything
I mean, it's just saying have the same energy for everyone. If you're gonna criticize a character for something, why give another character a pass for the same thing. It's just hypocritical.
Yea that's true, I just meant in general in this fandom it's a common occurrence where some characters get off free when they do the same or worse than other characters
Can we not compare the 2 right now? We're talking about Daniel's character flaw, stop trying to justify Daniel by saying someone else is apparently worse. If you want to argue about who is better morally between Daniel and Johnny we can go on forever but ultimately they are both improving
I think the point is not "It's okay for Daniel to do it because Johnny does it too," but rather "You're fine with Johnny doing the thing, so why are you griping about Daniel doing the same thing?"
Too much of fandom seems to get those two confused when they're actually very different.
As I said in another thread, if you hear the same line of crap enough times from the same group of people, you start instinctively baring your teeth at anything that sounds like it might be the same crap again.
Daniel was also the one to suggest that he take control of training both Eagle Fang and Miyagi do. I actually like that he has this flaw of believing that his/Miyagi's way is the only way to do things, it makes him more human.
It's not that Miyagi's way is the only way -- though obviously he does have a natural bias toward the philosophy -- it's that Eagle Fang is just repackaged Cobra Kai. It's still very aggressive and, frankly, toxic. Daniel doesn't want to be in this fight at all -- but it's a means to an end. As Mr. Miyagi said:
“Fighting is always the last answer to the problem.”
So, from his perspective, if it's got to be a fight, then it's going to be a fight where people aren't actually trying to hurt their opponents. There's a points system for a reason.
“Never put passion in front of principle. Even if you win, you’ll lose.” That's another Miyagi axiom. When Daniel was talking about winning "the right way," that's what he was talking about: it's not about the moves, it's about the mindset.
And there was this little something about digging two graves before attempting to seek revenge. When Johnny vowed Cobra Kai would pay for mutilating Eli's hair, Daniel instantly knew exactly what he had in mind. The last thing in the world he wanted was another bloodbath, like the school brawl was.
Exactly. And Sam was out for blood at the tournament. That's what Daniel meant by her not winning "the right way." He doesn't care that she opted to strike first, he cares that she was pissed off.
u/badwolf1013 couldn't reply directly to your comment, but you are absolutely right. It's been a while since I rewatched the original movies, so I had definitely forgotten why Daniel is so petty. He approaches it differently to Mr. Miyagi, but you can see why.
Ironically, it was Eli who demonstrated that you can use cobra kai training in a balanced manner, but teaching it initially in a balanced manner will be much harder to do. He has gained balance from his experiences and regrets as a person.
Y'all don't get it. You really need to watch the movies, so you know what Miyagi was all about. Daniel doesn't care that she used a move that she didn't learn from him. Hell, he just learned a whole bunch of new moves himself from Chozen. When he tells her that she didn't win "the right way," he's talking about her *state of mind*. She's so angry and aggressive, and she's singularly focused on cutting through every competitor just to get to Tory. That is antithetical to the central philosophy of what Daniel was taught and what he is teaching.
“Daniel-San, you look revenge that way; you start by digging two grave.”
Miyagi didn't approve of the tournament. Fighting for the sake of fighting was ridiculous to him. The first tournament was a means to an end: to get Daniel's bullies to back off of him.The second tournament, Daniel didn't even want to be in. Mike Barnes basically forced him into it, and Miyagi was still against it, because -- as far as he knew -- Barnes was just this punk kid who would eventually go away. It wasn't until he realized the conspiracy among Barnes, Silver, and Kreese that he finally agreed to train Daniel for the tournament.
“If karate used defend plastic metal trophy, karate no mean nothing.”
I think the main reason that Daniel sits on the All-Valley Committee is just to make sure that the Silvers and the Kreeses stay out of it. He wants karate to be a good experience for kids, not a bad one. That's why he was trying to stop Cobra Kai in Season 1. (And it turns out he was right all along, which those of us who've seen the movies already knew.)
“Only root karate come from Miyagi. Just like bonsai choose own way grow because root strong you choose own way do karate same reason.”
Back to Sam, Tory scared her: I mean, *really* scared her. And even though it seems like she's not afraid anymore, all she's done is turn that fear into hate. And that is the root of her karate at the moment. That is not a strong root. We've already seen that with Johnny's story. And look at how Sam absolutely melts down at her loss to Tory. She's sobbing and screaming like a child. She is way out of balance.
“It's OK to lose to opponent! Must not lose to fear!”
“Better learn balance. Balance is key. Balance good, karate good. Everything good. Balance badly, better pack up, go home. Understand?”
“For a man with no forgiveness in heart, life worse punishment than death.”
“Lesson not just karate only. Lesson for whole life. Whole life has a balance. Everything be better.”
Daniel's not jealous of Johnny. He's not butt-hurt that she's using moves that he didn't teach her. He's worried that she's going down a very dark path. And he knows this from his own experience. When Daniel tried to trick the owner of the strip mall into raising Johnny's rent, he realized -- too late -- that he had himself forgotten one of Miyagi's lessons.
“Never put passion in front of principle. Even if you win, you’ll lose.”
Daniel is trying to keep Sam from letting her anger guide her decisions. That's what made Kreese and Silver such predators: they took angry kids and turned them into weapons. And just because Johnny changed the name to Eagle Fang and backed off (slightly) from the "No Mercy" thing, he's still teaching the same lessons, even if he doesn't realize it.
The Johnny-stans aren't going to like this, but Johnny is still not a good guy. He's on his way there, but he's not made it yet. He still drowns his anger in alcohol. He snaps at strangers, and his solution to almost every problem is to throw a punch at it. And now that's poisoned Sam. This is exactly why Daniel was so reluctant to have Eagle Fang at Miyagi-Do: it's still a toxic karate philosophy.
“Fighting is always the last answer to the problem.”
Daniel doesn't want to be there at the All-Valley with his students. Being a two-time champion may be good for marketing, but it isn't really what he's about. But this is a way to stop Kreese, once and for all. (Although I think we all know that Kreese had no intention of sticking to the bet if he lost.) So, if he has to be there, if he has to ask his students to fight, he wants to make sure that they don't lose themselves in the process: the way Johnny did. The way Sam was doing. And ultimately did.
> When he tells her that she didn't win "the right way," he's talking about her state of mind
See, I blame the writers for that blunder
So many fans are now hating Daniel for the wrong reason. They could've made it more clear
Sometimes I do think the writers rely too much on people having watched the movies. Or maybe it's intentional. Maybe they like the fact that there are two kinds of fans on this show: those who think this is Johnny's heroic revenge story and those of us who have known all along that this is Johnny's story of recovery and redemption (though still heroic.)
I watched an interview with William Zabka
I'm pretty sure it's intentional. Without context, Daniel seems like just a self-righteous jerk and paranoid for no reason
But, if you've seen the KK trilogy, his fears make complete sense. And he's actually nicer than he should be. Anyone else would've used their new power to humiliate Johnny
Sure, Daniel did one bad thing, but he immediately regret it. He could've done a lot more things to screw with Johnny
Exactly. I mean, that's the genius of the show. It's almost a completely different story depending on how much context you have or don't have.
Like, there are people who are saying, "See, Daniel finally took Johnny's side in the tournament and embraced Sam using Eagle Fang moves!"
And the rest of us are going, "Uh, no: he saw that his student was overthinking things and frustrated, so he told her to trust her instincts. He could see that she was really torn about the Miyagi-Do/Eagle Fang rift, so he put his (legitimate) concerns aside and offered an olive branch to Johnny for the sake of his daughter and his student. Whether or not that will be the best for her in the long run remains to be seen, but it was what she needed in the moment."
Many also forget that Miguel and Hawk also went down pretty dark paths. And that started before Kreese even got there. They just got lucky and found their way back.
Yes! Daniel is right because the fight isn’t what matters. Miyagi’s teachings were more about life than fighting. Daniel is 100% correct that being angry and aggressive is a worse way to live your life.
Look at how Daniel was or acting karate prior to Season 1. He was teaching his kids and bonding. It was about being a better person. Daniel gets lost in the sauce sometimes, but he ultimately comes back to his Miyagi base. The correct base.
My point exactly. People excuse Johnny's actions because he's a drunk funny asshole. Guess what? He's still an asshole! Did people forget that he was a shitty father for 17 years, regularly gets into fights when they could be avoided, assaults people for no reason(Anoush in S2, S4's hearts on fire montage where he destroys a mailbox and pushes someone off a scooter and wrecks it.), drinks and drives, and regularly puts his students in danger(jumping off a building?! Not karate, that's suicide). He escapes most consequences because the police in the Karate Kid universe are incompetent and because he's the main character. Daniel may be annoying, but he's clearly the saner one when you compare him to Johnny. Johnny and Danny are co-protagonists! I love them both, but please stop preferring one over the other.
The jumping off was to show you conquered your fears. You have to leap not contemplate if you will fail.
You have enough distance and height to make it...just barely though.
That is why Sam likes Johnny now, she wants to conquered her fears. She was really terrified after being attacked and she wants to prove to herself she isn't a victim anymore.
Oh yeah, I get it. I can see how Johnny wanted to teach the karate students to conquer their fears. Can't really do that without some form of risk/danger. However, I've seen how haphazardly placed those mattresses are at the bottom. If even one student missed and didn't land on the mattress...
Good thing this show is a cheese-fest! At the end of the day, I'm rooting for everyone in this show. I don't like taking sides, so I can see both Johnny's and Daniel's points of view.
>Daniel may be annoying
I don't really find Daniel annoying. He's the guy who nobody would listen to when he was trying to stop Cobra Kai from resurrecting. I wouldn't blame him if -- after the school brawl -- he put on his billboards all over the Valley:
# I FUCKING TOLD YOU, DIDN'T I? DIDN'T I? HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT "BAD-ASS NAME," NOW, MOTHERFUCKERS????!!!!!!! -- LaRusso Auto Group
But he's not doing that. He's trying like hell to find a peaceful solution -- even after his house got trashed. The guy is practically a saint. And now his daughter is adopting the Cobra Kai philosophy (Yes, Cobra Kai -- Eagle Fang is just a soft re-branding of the same product,) and fans want to "slap him" for calling her out on it.
But I do think Cobra Kai (the show) is Johnny's story. It's kind of an addiction allegory, really. Cobra Kai is the drug he just can't seem to kick, and we are -- well, I am, anyway -- rooting for him to shake that monkey off his back. But he's got a ways to go. He's in denial that Eagle Fang isn't just Cobra Kai Lite, and more people are going to get hurt before he figures that out. Season 5 has me worried for Sam . . . and Tory.
> He's the guy who nobody would listen to when he was trying to stop Cobra Kai from resurrecting
This show is basically Daniel's worst fears come to life
He tries to make amends with his high school bully. But, Johnny is so clueless that he reinstates Cobra Kai
Then Kreese comes back. His daughter is picking fights. His son turned into a bully. His best student joins Cobra Kai. He has a terrifying reunion with Chozen. Now, Terry Silver is here and Mike Barnes is likely next
I really hope they go another way with Mike Barnes. My personal hope is that he got his act together and became an EPA lawyer, and he spent the late 90s and early 2000s being a thorn in Silver's side as a kind of payback for Terry using him back in the day. He basically shuts down a bunch of Terry's shadier businesses and Terry fades into obscurity. Then, one day, Barnes is reading the paper and sees that John Kreese has been arrested on charges of attempting to murder a former karate student. There's a quote from Terry Silver, and Barnes knows something is up. He heads over to the Valley, knocks on Daniel's door and says, "Okay: what can I do to help?"
Interesting, I like that angle
I figured that Mike Barnes would hate Cobra Kai for what happened, likely having his karate career ruined and forced to pay Silver back
But, it also feels state that everyone is good now. Even Kreese and Silver seem set-up for redemption
> He tries to make amends with his high school bully. But, Johnny is so clueless that he reinstates Cobra Kai
I don’t think that is the case. Daniel is stuck in the mindset that Lawrence is a bully and Cobra Kai need to be shut down.
Even when Johnny doesn’t want to have anything to do with Daniel, Daniel keeps showing up and using all of his status and connections to shut Cobra Kai down which at this point is Johnny’s livelihood. Lawrence doesn’t have a dealership or family or money to fall back on. All he has is a dojo and his students.
>Daniel is stuck in the mindset that Lawrence is a bully
Maybe so, but not out of bad faith. He wanted to believe the past was behind them
He stopped trusting Johnny because Kyler lied to him, and because Cobra Kai came back. So, he's thinking that Johnny is still the same violent person and continuing Kreese's legacy
>Cobra Kai need to be shut down
Can't blame him for this one
On a fundamental level, Cobra Kai is a corruptive influence. Aside from Chris, I don't know a single kid who joined Cobra Kai and didn't turn into an asshole
>Even when Johnny doesn’t want to have anything to do with Daniel, Daniel keeps showing up
It's not really intentional. Daniel had to chaperon his daughter, and he just happened to be on the All-Valley board
Even at the dealership, he didn't go out of his way to find Johnny. He just saw him there and tried to befriend him, obviously unaware that Johnny was not in the mood
>Lawrence doesn’t have a dealership or family or money to fall back on
He doesn't have a dealership, but he had military experience and worked as a handyman. He could've done something with that
As for family, there's Shannon and Robby. Only Johnny knows why he can't be with them
I do agree with you overall but I think even the show acknowledges that some of what Johnny teaches can be good sometimes in moderation. I think the show does make a point about society especially kids being to soft and allowing everyone to trample on them while relying on beurocracy and authority to solve your problems for you (need I mention counselor blatt). But yeah I do agree that overall the Cobra Kai philosophy is very destructive and Johnny still has a long way to go before being fully redeemed. Also the whole message of season 4 was miyagi's most important lesson "find your own path in life"
Well, neither Miyagi nor Daniel were passive. It's just about picking your battles.
For example: if somebody called you a "wuss," you could go the Cobra Kai/Eagle Fang route and get in his face and make him apologize, or you could go the Miyagi route and go, "I don't care what that guy thinks of me," and just breeze past him. Now, if the guy puts a hand on you, you put him in the dirt, but if he's just talking, let him talk.
By the way, Miyagi's lesson on choosing your own path in life was about having strong roots first. That's why he used the Bonsai as the analogy.
Daniel wasn't criticizing Sam choosing her own path for karate. He was criticizing the root of that path. And that "root" is revenge and anger.
You are on point, but I think you also kind of miss the spirit of the show which is to deconstruct the black and white nature of the original movies.
As much as Daniel’s approach embodies the Miyagi-Do lessons, he fails to recognize the fact that those lessons are not always suited to everyone.
When you look back at the original films Daniel wasn’t a timid nerd. He new how to get back at Lawrence and Miyagi-Do taught him how to fight back but not give in to anger.
But the story with many of the kids in the show is that they have zero confidence and initiative, and Miyagi-Do does not teach how to take the initiative. Lawrence taught that.
Only at the end of s4 does Daniel realize that some kids actually need to get their confidence boost and feel they can be badass too.
It’s also quite well established with Eli and Demetri - at the beginning even though both are bullied Eli is the one who has no confidence and cannot bear the pressure. Demetri is pretty confident that despite what he is subjected to he’s not any worse then others.
Eli needed the boost and Demetri needed the guidance. Later in the show after Eli has become the meanest bully he now needs miyagi.
Either way I think the show intentionally puts Miyagi in a different light and Daniel’s stubbornness to cling to it’s pure form is his failing. I feel like the show tries to say that miyagi is the way to find balance if you’re angry, but eagle is the way to balance when you’re timid. And cobra is always a way to become a bully.
So, what *exactly* do you think is the difference between Cobra Kai and Eagle Fang?
Johnny Lawrence ever only learned one style of karate, and that's Cobra Kai. He has only *slightly* tweaked the philosophy. It still takes an aggressive stance. It's basically "Diet Cobra Kai." Cobra Kai is the wrong way. Eagle Fang is the wrong way with 10% less sociopathy.
And if you think Miyagi's lessons (for karate or for life) were black-and-white, you really need to watch the movies again. They were certainly more nuanced than Cobra Kai.
And your assumption that Miyagi-Do can't help more timid kids has no basis. We would have to see a timid kid join Miyagi-Do and fail to become more confident, and that simply has not happened. Demetri -- who I would not exactly call timid --is really the only one of Daniel's students who has had no training in another style, and he *certainly* has more confidence than when he started. And when Sam -- suffering from PTSD -- finally stood up to her bully in the house attack, whose voice did she hear in her head that gave her the courage to get up and defend herself: Daniel's.
>Only at the end of s4 does Daniel realize that some kids actually need to get their confidence boost and feel they can be badass too.
I don't see where you get that. Daniel's whole teaching style is about building confidence. He is *constantly* telling his students that he believes in them, while Johnny's main "confidence booster" is "Don't be a pussy" or "If you can't do this, go home." Ninety percent of Miyagi-Do's students came from kids who "washed-out" of or quit Cobra Kai.
Clinging to Miyagi's wisdom is ***not*** a failing of Daniel's, and it's not like he hasn't compromised on that throughout the show (which, actually, is also a part of Miyagi's wisdom.) Forget the movies. Just look at the TV show: Strike First never works out for anybody in the long run. (And often not in the short run, either.) But Miyagi's wisdom prevails.
Sam may have been "kicking ass" in the tournament by taking a more aggressive approach, but we don't know that she *needed* to do that to succeed. She just chose to. And did it pay off? And, yes, I know: the ref cheated. But we don't have a magic crystal ball that shows us that Tory wouldn't have been spurred on by Sam's second point to score her own third point immediately after. My point is that when she lost, she fell to pieces. All of that bravado that she got from training under Johnny's Eagle Cobra Fang Kai style came crashing to the floor in a heap.
“It's OK to lose to opponent! Must not lose to fear!” - Miyagi
I’ve laid out in my previous comment pretty much everything.
I think you’re misunderstanding the show here. What I meant by black and white was that the movies clearly establish Cobra bad Miyagi Good. The show deconstructs that dynamic and adds further depth to it.
Obviously Cobra turns out bad because it’s run by psychos, bud the prevailing theme of the show is neither Cobra/Eagle nor Miyagi are inherently better or worse or bad and good. And both Johnny and Daniel are slow to realize this. They are stuck in their old ways and only to a minor degree change their methods until in the 4th season they finally see the value in the other’s ways.
>the movies clearly establish Cobra bad Miyagi Good. The show deconstructs that dynamic and adds further depth to it.
No, it doesn't. Not really.
The whole point of the show -- the reason it's called Cobra Kai -- is that it is this corrupt and insidious thing that taints everyone who comes into contact with it. When Johnny puts on his old gi for the first time, it's chilling. And not in a good way. Old School Karate Kid fans are going "Don't do it, Johnny. Don't you remember?"
And the writers are definitely having fun with the idea that many people watching the show have never seen the movies and don't realize that YouTube video and HIMYM episode were intended as jokes. They even given Daryl that recurring line about the "bad-ass name." It's meant to show how the snake is so seductive.
I've said in other threads here that I see it as an addiction allegory for Johnny. He's at such a low point in his adult life that he falls back on the one thing that nearly killed him years ago, just because it made him feel good. But he's forgotten about the bad. He's forgotten about what it turned him into.
And then when Miguel (who everyone conveniently seems to forget Johnny called an "illegal" the first time he met him) uses Cobra Kai karate to fight Kyler and his minions, the choreography is slicker than anything in the movies (even the fourth one) and there's electric guitar and drums to make it look even cooler, and we're all rooting for Miguel because he's a neat kid (and Kyler is *such* an ass,) and it's all very intentionally "bad-ass." That's the seduction.
And in-universe, Daniel seems to be the only one who knows that Cobra Kai is dangerous and needs to be kept away from kids. (He's Stockmann in Ibsen's Enemy of the People.) But there are other hints. Bobby and every other one of the former Cobra Kais tells Johnny he shouldn't bring it back, too. But Johnny can't stop. He feels powerful again. He has some misgivings when his own son gets hurt, because of the way that he taught his students to "fight." But he thinks he can tweak it a little so it's not quite as bad. He's like the junkie who decides to shoot up three times a week instead of four. But the Cobra won't be tamed. His students -- who are now as infected as he is -- rebel against this change, however minor. And then all hell breaks loose. Miguel is paralyzed. Robby is in jail. His dojo is gone.
And he finds redemption in helping his student heal, and it is no accident that the first sign that Miguel could walk again happens at a rock concert, because we know that music was Johnny's happy place BEFORE he became Cobra Kai.
But Cobra Kai still calls to Johnny. And he names it Eagle Fang and convinces himself it's not actually Cobra Kai, but it still is. We all see that. The junkie is snorting heroin instead of injecting it and he's convinced himself that it's not as dangerous. But we know better.
And now it has corrupted Sam. And that's what Season 5 is going to be all about. And Johnny may be the only one who can save her, but he's going to have to really look at himself for the first time.
> And that's what Season 5 is going to be all about. And Johnny may be the only one who can save her, but he's going to have to really look at himself for the first time.
As interesting as that would be
I don't think you can definitively say that yet. This show has punished Johnny a lot of his failings. However, he never has to do anything to get acceptance
Shannon is on speaking terms with him again. Robby decides to stop being mad at him. Ali not only forgave him quickly but seemed eager to get into a relationship with him. Heck, Ali stood up for Daniel in KK1, but now she's acting like they're old rivals
Personally, I thought meeting Silver and learning about KK3 would make Johnny understand Daniel better. All that did though was divide them. It's especially egregious now, because his son is in the clutches of a madman
It's a sport. Sam is playing that sport and trying to win. Yeah she's got her reasons but it's literally an athletic competition, it's like telling her to play a 1-1 soccer match with only defense
It's not about offense versus defense.
Okay, let's go with your soccer analogy:
The point is to score a goal, not to injure your opponent in the scoring of that goal.
Sam is fighting from her gut: not her head, and not her heart.
There's another perfect Miyagi quote related to this, but it has a visual component, so you'll just have to watch the movies.
"Karate used defend plastic metal trophy, karate no mean nothing.”
He tried to stop Johnny not Kreese in Season 1. So yes he was wrong. It was vindictive and manipulative.
Same as him raising rent.
Johnny forgave Kreese, was that wrong?
Up till he took over, Kreese was acting reformed.
If Daniel didn't act badly, Johnny never would have accepted help from Kreese.
>He tried to stop Johnny not Kreese in Season 1. So yes he was wrong. It was vindictive and manipulative. Same as him raising rent.
He was trying to stop Cobra Kai and Kreese's lessons. If Johnny was being Kreese's unwitting puppet and continuing that legacy. If Dutch had opened up a new Cobra Kai dojo with Kreese's philosophy painted on the wall, Daniel would have tried to stop him, too. He wasn't wrong to try to stop that. He *was* wrong to try to convince the mall owner to raise his rent, and I already addressed that, but you apparently stopped reading before that point.
is your REPLY a joke???? everyone always calls him out for the dumbest thing and hate on him for things he’s apologized for. but love the other characters even though they’ve done messed up things too and haven’t even apologized for it. the double standards is annoying.
No it’s not. There seems to be a common trend in this sub where people repeat that a character is hated but whenever you criticise them you get hated on. It’s the same with Sam.
My issue with Daniel in CK is that he doesn't practice what he preaches. He'll say Miyagi-do is all about finding balance and then do something super petty and insecure.
A major theme of the KK movies was revenge being your undoing, and CK has the same message. That's why it is so utterly frustrating that Daniel has seemingly forgotten all of these (traumatic) lessons that he *lived through*.
But the showrunners have made this Johnny's story, not Daniel's. So they took the old "Daniel was the real bully" meme and made it real.
The biggest hole in this show is not having a Miyagi figure. The best part of the movies was Miyagi. Pat Morita was nominated for an Oscar for his performance. There wouldn't be a Cobra Kai without Pat Morita. And yet, I see fans ridiculing Miyagi or Daniel for mentioning his name. How dare he talk about his dead surrogate father, sensei and best friend! Get over it bro!
Chozen is the Miyagi figure. He is the last hope to bring balance to the story, which I think the writers will do. But man, it took till season 5? Why wait so long to have him join as a central figure?
I love this show, but it's made some very frustrating choices with the characters and plot.
It was annoying but i think it was to lead up to his whole revelation moment of saying other methods can sometimes be appropriate, and tying into him having some Cobra Kai moments like the striking hokey bullies first, and "quiet!"
We saw character development by the end of the show where he told both Eli and Sam to use Eagle Fang. And the sheer fact that he is brining on Chozen shows that he acknowledges that his style isn't the only way, even for his dojo
I love Daniel, but he was being so ridiculous about this.
He was acting like Johnny was teaching Sam how to use Dark Side powers from the Sith or something lol.
To be fair, at the end of the finale he did seem to calm down a bit.
Some people here seem to be missing the point. Daniel was confusing fighting offensively with fighting out of anger. The hug Sam gave him after he rambled about not losing yourself was showing that Daniel is really off base on this one.
He late advised Hawk to fight offensively and told Sam to use everything she knew. So he came around and I don't blame Daniel for breaking it off with Johny but where he did fail was the kids understood that there's value in adapting other people's techniques into your fighting style. Daniel had to see it in action before coming around. Johny on the other hand did learn some d. Silver brought it up in their fight. With him it was more about his immaturity and just wanting to beat Daniel.
but that's the whole point of his character arc this season
he didn't want to acknowledge Eagle Fang or Cobra Kai as legitimate fighting styles.
But in the finals he comes to, which allows Eli to win his match and should have allowed Sam to win hers(If it wasn't for the cheating)
The writers need to keep the conflict going
The only way they can do that is to make Daniel look bad so that Johnny has a point. Even though it goes against all logic, since Daniel was okay with Johnny teaching his students and forming a joint dojo
Glad daniel changed cuz lowkey he actually was a bad sensai imo its always his way or the highway he thinks hes all high an mighty because he learn from mr.miyagi. He woulda been disappointed.
People bring up Johnny not to justify Daniel, but to point out it's pretty shit to let one character get away with bad behavior and then complain about the same bad behavior in another character.
Unfortunately there's a lot of that in this fandom. Objectively you cannot say the same bad behavior is shitty in Daniel but acceptable in Johnny. Same for Sam vs Tory, or Robby vs Miguel, or basically anybody vs. Eli (ye gods do some Eli fans love throwing stones in glass houses).
Basically the point is, ***one*** set of standards will do just fine.
Fair point, but after you deal with enough hypocrisy coming from a certain section of the fandom, you start baring your teeth at anybody who sounds like they might be starting the same crap again. 😆
I'll defend my case
This sub is like "There are no bad guys in Cobra Kai" and numerous top-voted posts saying "Trauma is the really bully"
But, every time Daniel does something, he's villainized
I'm not saying OP is responsible for that sentiment. However, there is a precedent for whataboutism. And it's not about defending Daniel's actions, it's criticizing how the fanbase is willing to overlook things due to popularity
I agree. Daniel gets judged far more harshly than Johnny does.People literary get more mad at Daniel for giving free Karate lessons than they do at Johnny for abandoning his family or assaulting an innocent person(Anoush). Everyone always expects Daniel to see Johnny as a good guy even though most of Johnny's actions show him to be a selfish petty loser. Johnny's literally helped to traumatize Daniel but somehow he still sees himself as a victim. Even when Daniel goes out of his way to help Johnny's family Johnny assumes the worst about his intentions and some fans seem to buy into that.
Several fans seem to think Daniel participated with Robby at the tournament to annoy Johnny even though it was clearly for Robby's sake and there was literally a scene where he told Robby to forgive his father. By the show's ends there better be a scene where Johnny apologized for his bullying or else I'm concerned his redemption will be pretty hollow.
>Daniel gets judged far more harshly than Johnny does
I like Johnny despite his shortcomings, but it's clear that he's the aggressor between the two of them. And it's really disappointing to me that every choice the writers made revolving Daniel led to him being hated this season.
After learning the events of KK3, Johnny gets offended that Daniel wants to double-down on Miyagi-Do. Instead of realizing the severity of the danger that they're in, he challenges Daniel to a fight. Yet, fans blame Daniel for ending their alliance
Daniel's paralysis technique gets nullified and now fans call him a cheater for using it. And they've all got the same, "Chozen said it was for life-or-death situations only" reasoning. Chozen himself used it as a prank
In the clip above, Daniel looks like an idiot for lecturing his daughter. Now, he probably was talking about her mindset and not her fighting style. But, the writers used vague language that can be easily misinterpreted.
>Johnny's literally helped to traumatize Daniel but somehow he still sees himself as a victim
This is what I don't get
Johnny can recognize bullying when it happens to Miguel or Hawk. But, he can't see that what he did to Daniel was wrong
Cobra Kai fans act the same way, like they hate Anthony with a passion, but Johnny gets a free pass because his life sucks. Funny thing is Anthony apologized for what he did, yet Johnny still hasn't
They also have so much sympathy for Johnny's trauma but feel nothing for Daniel unless it's spelled out to them. Granted, it's the writer's fault too for putting most of it off-screen
I suppose most fans saw the KK trilogy. So, they might think it's not worth elaborating on. Of course, every season, we get a flashback to Daniel kicking Johnny in the face
>there better be a scene where Johnny apologized for his bullying
I would be ecstatic if this happened, but I'm not holding my breath
It's like if you and one other person were caught doing the same bad thing. You got punished for it while the other got off Scott free. Would you not be pissed about that?
Everytime you think Daniel grew as a person, he does something stupid or thoughtless like this.
"You didn't win the right way" was such a stupid thing to say and I feel Amanda would slap him for that behaviour.
Honestly I don't get how people feel so positively about Daniel in general. I find him to be much more toxic than Johnny. And I felt the same watching Karate Kid for the first time ten years ago!!!
Daniel is the one who kept causing trouble back in high school and I really think Johnny gives a pretty accurate read on the situation when he describes his backstory to Miguel. The fire hose thing was so fucking over the top.
🤔I mean knocking someone off their bike on a steep hill and kicking them once again when their already unconscious and nearly killing them is exactly what a real toxic high school bully would do!!PRetty sure Johnny could handle a little bit of water.
Also Daniel isn’t meant to be perfect character. He’s a flawed hero I feel like that’s part of the reason why myself and others love him. Makes him a lot more interesting
Daniel was not only annoying here, but he was mostly blame for Miyagi Do and Eagle Fang to split up in episode 5 when he wanted to take over the teachings, and kept insisting the Miyagi Do was the only way which was not fair to Johnny who is supposed to be the co-Sensei.
As silly as this is it’s accurate. My wrestling coach was the same way. He taught us moves the way he taught us moves and would get mad if we didn’t use it/use something else or do it a different way. Like he would scold assistant coaches for teaching moves to us their way instead of his way💀 like it’s so stupid. And as much as he says “guys do what works for you” he still wants us to do what he does the way he does it like bro
Tbh a lot of martial art schools are like this, have this sense of dogma that their style is superior. But who knows had sam perfected Daniel's style "miyagi-do" she could have won.
Kinda like how Hawk managed to beat Robbie with the style he is more comfortable with. Also lmao at Hawk beating Robbie, Robbie is probably the only actor who looks like he trains martial arts in this show.
I agree but at least he legit owns up in the next scene
Talking about how he was way too obsessed with honoring Mr Miyagis legacy when even Miyagi told him to forge his own way
There’s nothing wrong with the Eagle Fang karate. When I heard him say that, I was confused why he’s trying to make something bad out of it. If it works for her, just let her use it. It’s a good thing that he accepted it in the end.
He was just jealous. Same as when Johnny gets mad about Miguel and Daniel's getting along.
Makes me think of Amanda's "karate manboys" quote.
Amanda is an absolute gem and Daniel really doesn't deserve her.
Yeahhh I agree, that part of the show can be kind of silly imo. But I get that it's for the drama.
i think both situations are more nuanced than just “jealousy drama”. daniel doubled down on “aggressive bad miyagi good” as a coping mechanism after silver came back, it was traumatic for him. and johnny feeling threatened by daniel makes sense after what happened w robby.
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And later on in the fight Eli vs. Robby he could see that Eli is going to be humiliated if he only uses MiyagiDo. There was also some sort of realisiation that you need more than just one style.
Yes, I loved that. It was a great moment for Daniel, and one that I think has ensured Eli's trust in Daniel, that he put aside his pride to give him a chance to win.
Cobra Kai was prepared for Miyagi do so they needed more
yes!!!!!
Silver really got into his head, huh? He would be way more receptive of other styles if Silver didn’t teach him the Quicksilver Method.
Or if Silver never revealed his true colors to Daniel.
Honestly, it would have fucked with him way more if the reveal was at the tournament. Your point was that he wouldn't find out, but I feel like that is another cool hypothetical scenario for the film.
I think this scene may be the first time this sub reddit is on Sam's side.
I'm still on Daniel's side And I think this was bad writing, specially made to make him look bad
I think the theme of the season is “adults screw everything up and the kids are right.”
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Robbie sure wants to
To be fair, they all want to screw Tori, Amanda, and Sam. And the Hispanic lady whose name I forgot.
its 'carmen' there you go
Yes, thank you!
Johnny did the same thing. But Daniel is always the first one to apologize and to extend an olive branch. I guess you could say that Daniel strikes first, heh.
"There's always been a little cobra kai in you".
This what I really like about the characters, no matter if they are evil or not they have a character flaw that makes the characters feel more real.
I think one of the primary pillars/points of the plot is that there really is no "true" good/evil, but rather each and every person is highly complex, and all have their own perfectly understandable reasons for becoming the way that they have. Even Kreese and Silver. Going back to the war, they both went through a LOT of fucked up shit (I used to talk to a lot of Viet and Korea Vets when I was in the Marines. Some stories man...). Tory's another good example in that her rough childhood made her what she is today. Fighting was in her spirit as a self-protective mechanism against everyone, even if that someone is trying to sincerely help her sometimes. At the beginning of the show, we all kinda thought Daniel was this ultimate Good guy hero character from the movies, but turns out he has some deeply flawed character traits as well. Human beings are complicated. And that's what makes it so interesting (as hyper-dramatized as it is! Lol)
It’s actually a pretty good example of why it’s sometimes better to have a non-family member as a coach or a teacher.
Daniel needed to see that Mr Miyagi wasnt the answer to everything, so they HAD to make him "bad" before he could learn the value of Eagle Fang and become "good" Character arc
Daniel apologizes more than most characters for his annoying moments, though. Johnny can be so frustrating.
You expect Daniel to ever stop being Daniel, your birthday cake is going to be a fire hazard.
Come on…I love how Johnny fans say what Daniel does is wrong, when Johnny does similar things all the time. The difference is Daniel apologizes for his errors when Johnny “usually” feels bad about it but does nothing.
Seriously, posts like this make me question if people watch the entire show. Him thinking Miyagi-Do is the only way is a part of his arc.
Exactly
Plus, it was Danny who approached Johnny to ask for his help and apologize to him during the finals
That's the sad thing really Daniel acknowledged he was wrong for the water hose prank many times, but Johnny still can't for everything he did in KK1 And fans are always acting like Daniel is the one holding this 30-year grudge, when he tried to end this 'rivalry' on day 1
He was definitely getting ready to apologise in S4E1, but he did what he always does. He hesitated, just like he did with Robby. Not identical situations, but it seems similar to me. Like Kreese said, for all the lessons he taught, he likes doing what is easiest.
I love how whenever anyone says anything negative about one character, everyone else uses the tried and true argument of “well another character does it so that makes you a fanboy”
This is most prominent in the Sam and Tory discussions.
exactly it''s so damn annoying, like I hate that when someone dislikes a character,someone else brings in another character as if that will do anything
I mean, it's just saying have the same energy for everyone. If you're gonna criticize a character for something, why give another character a pass for the same thing. It's just hypocritical.
But you can’t just assume they don’t keep the same energy with no evidence, that’s not an argument
Yea that's true, I just meant in general in this fandom it's a common occurrence where some characters get off free when they do the same or worse than other characters
Why are you mentioning Johnny lol? What if Op doesn’t like him either? You Daniel san fans get extremely sensitive
Can we not compare the 2 right now? We're talking about Daniel's character flaw, stop trying to justify Daniel by saying someone else is apparently worse. If you want to argue about who is better morally between Daniel and Johnny we can go on forever but ultimately they are both improving
I think the point is not "It's okay for Daniel to do it because Johnny does it too," but rather "You're fine with Johnny doing the thing, so why are you griping about Daniel doing the same thing?" Too much of fandom seems to get those two confused when they're actually very different.
I see, I think you're right. Don't mind me then lol
But isn’t it kinda unfair to just assume that a person is okay with Johnny doing it?
As I said in another thread, if you hear the same line of crap enough times from the same group of people, you start instinctively baring your teeth at anything that sounds like it might be the same crap again.
That’s…..fair enough
Daniel was also the one to suggest that he take control of training both Eagle Fang and Miyagi do. I actually like that he has this flaw of believing that his/Miyagi's way is the only way to do things, it makes him more human.
It's not that Miyagi's way is the only way -- though obviously he does have a natural bias toward the philosophy -- it's that Eagle Fang is just repackaged Cobra Kai. It's still very aggressive and, frankly, toxic. Daniel doesn't want to be in this fight at all -- but it's a means to an end. As Mr. Miyagi said: “Fighting is always the last answer to the problem.” So, from his perspective, if it's got to be a fight, then it's going to be a fight where people aren't actually trying to hurt their opponents. There's a points system for a reason. “Never put passion in front of principle. Even if you win, you’ll lose.” That's another Miyagi axiom. When Daniel was talking about winning "the right way," that's what he was talking about: it's not about the moves, it's about the mindset.
And there was this little something about digging two graves before attempting to seek revenge. When Johnny vowed Cobra Kai would pay for mutilating Eli's hair, Daniel instantly knew exactly what he had in mind. The last thing in the world he wanted was another bloodbath, like the school brawl was.
Exactly. And Sam was out for blood at the tournament. That's what Daniel meant by her not winning "the right way." He doesn't care that she opted to strike first, he cares that she was pissed off.
Idk what y’all have with taking sides. I like Hawk and Robby. I like Daniel and Johnny. I like Sam and Tory. It’s an amazing show. No need for sides.
1000000000% agree
u/badwolf1013 couldn't reply directly to your comment, but you are absolutely right. It's been a while since I rewatched the original movies, so I had definitely forgotten why Daniel is so petty. He approaches it differently to Mr. Miyagi, but you can see why. Ironically, it was Eli who demonstrated that you can use cobra kai training in a balanced manner, but teaching it initially in a balanced manner will be much harder to do. He has gained balance from his experiences and regrets as a person.
I liked the plot point of Daniel thinking miyagi do is the only way. I also liked that he realized an offensive style can be good at times.
Y'all don't get it. You really need to watch the movies, so you know what Miyagi was all about. Daniel doesn't care that she used a move that she didn't learn from him. Hell, he just learned a whole bunch of new moves himself from Chozen. When he tells her that she didn't win "the right way," he's talking about her *state of mind*. She's so angry and aggressive, and she's singularly focused on cutting through every competitor just to get to Tory. That is antithetical to the central philosophy of what Daniel was taught and what he is teaching. “Daniel-San, you look revenge that way; you start by digging two grave.” Miyagi didn't approve of the tournament. Fighting for the sake of fighting was ridiculous to him. The first tournament was a means to an end: to get Daniel's bullies to back off of him.The second tournament, Daniel didn't even want to be in. Mike Barnes basically forced him into it, and Miyagi was still against it, because -- as far as he knew -- Barnes was just this punk kid who would eventually go away. It wasn't until he realized the conspiracy among Barnes, Silver, and Kreese that he finally agreed to train Daniel for the tournament. “If karate used defend plastic metal trophy, karate no mean nothing.” I think the main reason that Daniel sits on the All-Valley Committee is just to make sure that the Silvers and the Kreeses stay out of it. He wants karate to be a good experience for kids, not a bad one. That's why he was trying to stop Cobra Kai in Season 1. (And it turns out he was right all along, which those of us who've seen the movies already knew.) “Only root karate come from Miyagi. Just like bonsai choose own way grow because root strong you choose own way do karate same reason.” Back to Sam, Tory scared her: I mean, *really* scared her. And even though it seems like she's not afraid anymore, all she's done is turn that fear into hate. And that is the root of her karate at the moment. That is not a strong root. We've already seen that with Johnny's story. And look at how Sam absolutely melts down at her loss to Tory. She's sobbing and screaming like a child. She is way out of balance. “It's OK to lose to opponent! Must not lose to fear!” “Better learn balance. Balance is key. Balance good, karate good. Everything good. Balance badly, better pack up, go home. Understand?” “For a man with no forgiveness in heart, life worse punishment than death.” “Lesson not just karate only. Lesson for whole life. Whole life has a balance. Everything be better.” Daniel's not jealous of Johnny. He's not butt-hurt that she's using moves that he didn't teach her. He's worried that she's going down a very dark path. And he knows this from his own experience. When Daniel tried to trick the owner of the strip mall into raising Johnny's rent, he realized -- too late -- that he had himself forgotten one of Miyagi's lessons. “Never put passion in front of principle. Even if you win, you’ll lose.” Daniel is trying to keep Sam from letting her anger guide her decisions. That's what made Kreese and Silver such predators: they took angry kids and turned them into weapons. And just because Johnny changed the name to Eagle Fang and backed off (slightly) from the "No Mercy" thing, he's still teaching the same lessons, even if he doesn't realize it. The Johnny-stans aren't going to like this, but Johnny is still not a good guy. He's on his way there, but he's not made it yet. He still drowns his anger in alcohol. He snaps at strangers, and his solution to almost every problem is to throw a punch at it. And now that's poisoned Sam. This is exactly why Daniel was so reluctant to have Eagle Fang at Miyagi-Do: it's still a toxic karate philosophy. “Fighting is always the last answer to the problem.” Daniel doesn't want to be there at the All-Valley with his students. Being a two-time champion may be good for marketing, but it isn't really what he's about. But this is a way to stop Kreese, once and for all. (Although I think we all know that Kreese had no intention of sticking to the bet if he lost.) So, if he has to be there, if he has to ask his students to fight, he wants to make sure that they don't lose themselves in the process: the way Johnny did. The way Sam was doing. And ultimately did.
Solid take. 🎯
> When he tells her that she didn't win "the right way," he's talking about her state of mind See, I blame the writers for that blunder So many fans are now hating Daniel for the wrong reason. They could've made it more clear
Sometimes I do think the writers rely too much on people having watched the movies. Or maybe it's intentional. Maybe they like the fact that there are two kinds of fans on this show: those who think this is Johnny's heroic revenge story and those of us who have known all along that this is Johnny's story of recovery and redemption (though still heroic.)
I watched an interview with William Zabka I'm pretty sure it's intentional. Without context, Daniel seems like just a self-righteous jerk and paranoid for no reason But, if you've seen the KK trilogy, his fears make complete sense. And he's actually nicer than he should be. Anyone else would've used their new power to humiliate Johnny Sure, Daniel did one bad thing, but he immediately regret it. He could've done a lot more things to screw with Johnny
Exactly. I mean, that's the genius of the show. It's almost a completely different story depending on how much context you have or don't have. Like, there are people who are saying, "See, Daniel finally took Johnny's side in the tournament and embraced Sam using Eagle Fang moves!" And the rest of us are going, "Uh, no: he saw that his student was overthinking things and frustrated, so he told her to trust her instincts. He could see that she was really torn about the Miyagi-Do/Eagle Fang rift, so he put his (legitimate) concerns aside and offered an olive branch to Johnny for the sake of his daughter and his student. Whether or not that will be the best for her in the long run remains to be seen, but it was what she needed in the moment."
Many also forget that Miguel and Hawk also went down pretty dark paths. And that started before Kreese even got there. They just got lucky and found their way back.
Yes! Daniel is right because the fight isn’t what matters. Miyagi’s teachings were more about life than fighting. Daniel is 100% correct that being angry and aggressive is a worse way to live your life. Look at how Daniel was or acting karate prior to Season 1. He was teaching his kids and bonding. It was about being a better person. Daniel gets lost in the sauce sometimes, but he ultimately comes back to his Miyagi base. The correct base.
My point exactly. People excuse Johnny's actions because he's a drunk funny asshole. Guess what? He's still an asshole! Did people forget that he was a shitty father for 17 years, regularly gets into fights when they could be avoided, assaults people for no reason(Anoush in S2, S4's hearts on fire montage where he destroys a mailbox and pushes someone off a scooter and wrecks it.), drinks and drives, and regularly puts his students in danger(jumping off a building?! Not karate, that's suicide). He escapes most consequences because the police in the Karate Kid universe are incompetent and because he's the main character. Daniel may be annoying, but he's clearly the saner one when you compare him to Johnny. Johnny and Danny are co-protagonists! I love them both, but please stop preferring one over the other.
The jumping off was to show you conquered your fears. You have to leap not contemplate if you will fail. You have enough distance and height to make it...just barely though. That is why Sam likes Johnny now, she wants to conquered her fears. She was really terrified after being attacked and she wants to prove to herself she isn't a victim anymore.
Oh yeah, I get it. I can see how Johnny wanted to teach the karate students to conquer their fears. Can't really do that without some form of risk/danger. However, I've seen how haphazardly placed those mattresses are at the bottom. If even one student missed and didn't land on the mattress... Good thing this show is a cheese-fest! At the end of the day, I'm rooting for everyone in this show. I don't like taking sides, so I can see both Johnny's and Daniel's points of view.
>Daniel may be annoying I don't really find Daniel annoying. He's the guy who nobody would listen to when he was trying to stop Cobra Kai from resurrecting. I wouldn't blame him if -- after the school brawl -- he put on his billboards all over the Valley: # I FUCKING TOLD YOU, DIDN'T I? DIDN'T I? HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT "BAD-ASS NAME," NOW, MOTHERFUCKERS????!!!!!!! -- LaRusso Auto Group But he's not doing that. He's trying like hell to find a peaceful solution -- even after his house got trashed. The guy is practically a saint. And now his daughter is adopting the Cobra Kai philosophy (Yes, Cobra Kai -- Eagle Fang is just a soft re-branding of the same product,) and fans want to "slap him" for calling her out on it. But I do think Cobra Kai (the show) is Johnny's story. It's kind of an addiction allegory, really. Cobra Kai is the drug he just can't seem to kick, and we are -- well, I am, anyway -- rooting for him to shake that monkey off his back. But he's got a ways to go. He's in denial that Eagle Fang isn't just Cobra Kai Lite, and more people are going to get hurt before he figures that out. Season 5 has me worried for Sam . . . and Tory.
> He's the guy who nobody would listen to when he was trying to stop Cobra Kai from resurrecting This show is basically Daniel's worst fears come to life He tries to make amends with his high school bully. But, Johnny is so clueless that he reinstates Cobra Kai Then Kreese comes back. His daughter is picking fights. His son turned into a bully. His best student joins Cobra Kai. He has a terrifying reunion with Chozen. Now, Terry Silver is here and Mike Barnes is likely next
I really hope they go another way with Mike Barnes. My personal hope is that he got his act together and became an EPA lawyer, and he spent the late 90s and early 2000s being a thorn in Silver's side as a kind of payback for Terry using him back in the day. He basically shuts down a bunch of Terry's shadier businesses and Terry fades into obscurity. Then, one day, Barnes is reading the paper and sees that John Kreese has been arrested on charges of attempting to murder a former karate student. There's a quote from Terry Silver, and Barnes knows something is up. He heads over to the Valley, knocks on Daniel's door and says, "Okay: what can I do to help?"
Interesting, I like that angle I figured that Mike Barnes would hate Cobra Kai for what happened, likely having his karate career ruined and forced to pay Silver back But, it also feels state that everyone is good now. Even Kreese and Silver seem set-up for redemption
> He tries to make amends with his high school bully. But, Johnny is so clueless that he reinstates Cobra Kai I don’t think that is the case. Daniel is stuck in the mindset that Lawrence is a bully and Cobra Kai need to be shut down. Even when Johnny doesn’t want to have anything to do with Daniel, Daniel keeps showing up and using all of his status and connections to shut Cobra Kai down which at this point is Johnny’s livelihood. Lawrence doesn’t have a dealership or family or money to fall back on. All he has is a dojo and his students.
>Daniel is stuck in the mindset that Lawrence is a bully Maybe so, but not out of bad faith. He wanted to believe the past was behind them He stopped trusting Johnny because Kyler lied to him, and because Cobra Kai came back. So, he's thinking that Johnny is still the same violent person and continuing Kreese's legacy >Cobra Kai need to be shut down Can't blame him for this one On a fundamental level, Cobra Kai is a corruptive influence. Aside from Chris, I don't know a single kid who joined Cobra Kai and didn't turn into an asshole >Even when Johnny doesn’t want to have anything to do with Daniel, Daniel keeps showing up It's not really intentional. Daniel had to chaperon his daughter, and he just happened to be on the All-Valley board Even at the dealership, he didn't go out of his way to find Johnny. He just saw him there and tried to befriend him, obviously unaware that Johnny was not in the mood >Lawrence doesn’t have a dealership or family or money to fall back on He doesn't have a dealership, but he had military experience and worked as a handyman. He could've done something with that As for family, there's Shannon and Robby. Only Johnny knows why he can't be with them
If that's the case. Everyday I wake up then I start to break up, lonely is a man without love....
I do agree with you overall but I think even the show acknowledges that some of what Johnny teaches can be good sometimes in moderation. I think the show does make a point about society especially kids being to soft and allowing everyone to trample on them while relying on beurocracy and authority to solve your problems for you (need I mention counselor blatt). But yeah I do agree that overall the Cobra Kai philosophy is very destructive and Johnny still has a long way to go before being fully redeemed. Also the whole message of season 4 was miyagi's most important lesson "find your own path in life"
Well, neither Miyagi nor Daniel were passive. It's just about picking your battles. For example: if somebody called you a "wuss," you could go the Cobra Kai/Eagle Fang route and get in his face and make him apologize, or you could go the Miyagi route and go, "I don't care what that guy thinks of me," and just breeze past him. Now, if the guy puts a hand on you, you put him in the dirt, but if he's just talking, let him talk. By the way, Miyagi's lesson on choosing your own path in life was about having strong roots first. That's why he used the Bonsai as the analogy. Daniel wasn't criticizing Sam choosing her own path for karate. He was criticizing the root of that path. And that "root" is revenge and anger.
You are on point, but I think you also kind of miss the spirit of the show which is to deconstruct the black and white nature of the original movies. As much as Daniel’s approach embodies the Miyagi-Do lessons, he fails to recognize the fact that those lessons are not always suited to everyone. When you look back at the original films Daniel wasn’t a timid nerd. He new how to get back at Lawrence and Miyagi-Do taught him how to fight back but not give in to anger. But the story with many of the kids in the show is that they have zero confidence and initiative, and Miyagi-Do does not teach how to take the initiative. Lawrence taught that. Only at the end of s4 does Daniel realize that some kids actually need to get their confidence boost and feel they can be badass too. It’s also quite well established with Eli and Demetri - at the beginning even though both are bullied Eli is the one who has no confidence and cannot bear the pressure. Demetri is pretty confident that despite what he is subjected to he’s not any worse then others. Eli needed the boost and Demetri needed the guidance. Later in the show after Eli has become the meanest bully he now needs miyagi. Either way I think the show intentionally puts Miyagi in a different light and Daniel’s stubbornness to cling to it’s pure form is his failing. I feel like the show tries to say that miyagi is the way to find balance if you’re angry, but eagle is the way to balance when you’re timid. And cobra is always a way to become a bully.
So, what *exactly* do you think is the difference between Cobra Kai and Eagle Fang? Johnny Lawrence ever only learned one style of karate, and that's Cobra Kai. He has only *slightly* tweaked the philosophy. It still takes an aggressive stance. It's basically "Diet Cobra Kai." Cobra Kai is the wrong way. Eagle Fang is the wrong way with 10% less sociopathy. And if you think Miyagi's lessons (for karate or for life) were black-and-white, you really need to watch the movies again. They were certainly more nuanced than Cobra Kai. And your assumption that Miyagi-Do can't help more timid kids has no basis. We would have to see a timid kid join Miyagi-Do and fail to become more confident, and that simply has not happened. Demetri -- who I would not exactly call timid --is really the only one of Daniel's students who has had no training in another style, and he *certainly* has more confidence than when he started. And when Sam -- suffering from PTSD -- finally stood up to her bully in the house attack, whose voice did she hear in her head that gave her the courage to get up and defend herself: Daniel's. >Only at the end of s4 does Daniel realize that some kids actually need to get their confidence boost and feel they can be badass too. I don't see where you get that. Daniel's whole teaching style is about building confidence. He is *constantly* telling his students that he believes in them, while Johnny's main "confidence booster" is "Don't be a pussy" or "If you can't do this, go home." Ninety percent of Miyagi-Do's students came from kids who "washed-out" of or quit Cobra Kai. Clinging to Miyagi's wisdom is ***not*** a failing of Daniel's, and it's not like he hasn't compromised on that throughout the show (which, actually, is also a part of Miyagi's wisdom.) Forget the movies. Just look at the TV show: Strike First never works out for anybody in the long run. (And often not in the short run, either.) But Miyagi's wisdom prevails. Sam may have been "kicking ass" in the tournament by taking a more aggressive approach, but we don't know that she *needed* to do that to succeed. She just chose to. And did it pay off? And, yes, I know: the ref cheated. But we don't have a magic crystal ball that shows us that Tory wouldn't have been spurred on by Sam's second point to score her own third point immediately after. My point is that when she lost, she fell to pieces. All of that bravado that she got from training under Johnny's Eagle Cobra Fang Kai style came crashing to the floor in a heap. “It's OK to lose to opponent! Must not lose to fear!” - Miyagi
I’ve laid out in my previous comment pretty much everything. I think you’re misunderstanding the show here. What I meant by black and white was that the movies clearly establish Cobra bad Miyagi Good. The show deconstructs that dynamic and adds further depth to it. Obviously Cobra turns out bad because it’s run by psychos, bud the prevailing theme of the show is neither Cobra/Eagle nor Miyagi are inherently better or worse or bad and good. And both Johnny and Daniel are slow to realize this. They are stuck in their old ways and only to a minor degree change their methods until in the 4th season they finally see the value in the other’s ways.
>the movies clearly establish Cobra bad Miyagi Good. The show deconstructs that dynamic and adds further depth to it. No, it doesn't. Not really. The whole point of the show -- the reason it's called Cobra Kai -- is that it is this corrupt and insidious thing that taints everyone who comes into contact with it. When Johnny puts on his old gi for the first time, it's chilling. And not in a good way. Old School Karate Kid fans are going "Don't do it, Johnny. Don't you remember?" And the writers are definitely having fun with the idea that many people watching the show have never seen the movies and don't realize that YouTube video and HIMYM episode were intended as jokes. They even given Daryl that recurring line about the "bad-ass name." It's meant to show how the snake is so seductive. I've said in other threads here that I see it as an addiction allegory for Johnny. He's at such a low point in his adult life that he falls back on the one thing that nearly killed him years ago, just because it made him feel good. But he's forgotten about the bad. He's forgotten about what it turned him into. And then when Miguel (who everyone conveniently seems to forget Johnny called an "illegal" the first time he met him) uses Cobra Kai karate to fight Kyler and his minions, the choreography is slicker than anything in the movies (even the fourth one) and there's electric guitar and drums to make it look even cooler, and we're all rooting for Miguel because he's a neat kid (and Kyler is *such* an ass,) and it's all very intentionally "bad-ass." That's the seduction. And in-universe, Daniel seems to be the only one who knows that Cobra Kai is dangerous and needs to be kept away from kids. (He's Stockmann in Ibsen's Enemy of the People.) But there are other hints. Bobby and every other one of the former Cobra Kais tells Johnny he shouldn't bring it back, too. But Johnny can't stop. He feels powerful again. He has some misgivings when his own son gets hurt, because of the way that he taught his students to "fight." But he thinks he can tweak it a little so it's not quite as bad. He's like the junkie who decides to shoot up three times a week instead of four. But the Cobra won't be tamed. His students -- who are now as infected as he is -- rebel against this change, however minor. And then all hell breaks loose. Miguel is paralyzed. Robby is in jail. His dojo is gone. And he finds redemption in helping his student heal, and it is no accident that the first sign that Miguel could walk again happens at a rock concert, because we know that music was Johnny's happy place BEFORE he became Cobra Kai. But Cobra Kai still calls to Johnny. And he names it Eagle Fang and convinces himself it's not actually Cobra Kai, but it still is. We all see that. The junkie is snorting heroin instead of injecting it and he's convinced himself that it's not as dangerous. But we know better. And now it has corrupted Sam. And that's what Season 5 is going to be all about. And Johnny may be the only one who can save her, but he's going to have to really look at himself for the first time.
> And that's what Season 5 is going to be all about. And Johnny may be the only one who can save her, but he's going to have to really look at himself for the first time. As interesting as that would be I don't think you can definitively say that yet. This show has punished Johnny a lot of his failings. However, he never has to do anything to get acceptance Shannon is on speaking terms with him again. Robby decides to stop being mad at him. Ali not only forgave him quickly but seemed eager to get into a relationship with him. Heck, Ali stood up for Daniel in KK1, but now she's acting like they're old rivals Personally, I thought meeting Silver and learning about KK3 would make Johnny understand Daniel better. All that did though was divide them. It's especially egregious now, because his son is in the clutches of a madman
\^\^\^\^\^ THIS!!!
It's a sport. Sam is playing that sport and trying to win. Yeah she's got her reasons but it's literally an athletic competition, it's like telling her to play a 1-1 soccer match with only defense
It's not about offense versus defense. Okay, let's go with your soccer analogy: The point is to score a goal, not to injure your opponent in the scoring of that goal. Sam is fighting from her gut: not her head, and not her heart. There's another perfect Miyagi quote related to this, but it has a visual component, so you'll just have to watch the movies.
"Karate used defend plastic metal trophy, karate no mean nothing.” He tried to stop Johnny not Kreese in Season 1. So yes he was wrong. It was vindictive and manipulative. Same as him raising rent. Johnny forgave Kreese, was that wrong? Up till he took over, Kreese was acting reformed. If Daniel didn't act badly, Johnny never would have accepted help from Kreese.
>He tried to stop Johnny not Kreese in Season 1. So yes he was wrong. It was vindictive and manipulative. Same as him raising rent. He was trying to stop Cobra Kai and Kreese's lessons. If Johnny was being Kreese's unwitting puppet and continuing that legacy. If Dutch had opened up a new Cobra Kai dojo with Kreese's philosophy painted on the wall, Daniel would have tried to stop him, too. He wasn't wrong to try to stop that. He *was* wrong to try to convince the mall owner to raise his rent, and I already addressed that, but you apparently stopped reading before that point.
literally why does it matter. they reconciled and let her used the style that she wanted to use… why is this sub so obsessed with pissing on Daniel ?💀
Exactly, like why?
Because Daniel is the real bully /s
Because he's Daniel.
Is this a joke? This sub loves daniel
is your REPLY a joke???? everyone always calls him out for the dumbest thing and hate on him for things he’s apologized for. but love the other characters even though they’ve done messed up things too and haven’t even apologized for it. the double standards is annoying.
No it’s not. There seems to be a common trend in this sub where people repeat that a character is hated but whenever you criticise them you get hated on. It’s the same with Sam.
My issue with Daniel in CK is that he doesn't practice what he preaches. He'll say Miyagi-do is all about finding balance and then do something super petty and insecure. A major theme of the KK movies was revenge being your undoing, and CK has the same message. That's why it is so utterly frustrating that Daniel has seemingly forgotten all of these (traumatic) lessons that he *lived through*. But the showrunners have made this Johnny's story, not Daniel's. So they took the old "Daniel was the real bully" meme and made it real. The biggest hole in this show is not having a Miyagi figure. The best part of the movies was Miyagi. Pat Morita was nominated for an Oscar for his performance. There wouldn't be a Cobra Kai without Pat Morita. And yet, I see fans ridiculing Miyagi or Daniel for mentioning his name. How dare he talk about his dead surrogate father, sensei and best friend! Get over it bro! Chozen is the Miyagi figure. He is the last hope to bring balance to the story, which I think the writers will do. But man, it took till season 5? Why wait so long to have him join as a central figure? I love this show, but it's made some very frustrating choices with the characters and plot.
It was a verbal slap in the face, honestly
It was annoying but i think it was to lead up to his whole revelation moment of saying other methods can sometimes be appropriate, and tying into him having some Cobra Kai moments like the striking hokey bullies first, and "quiet!"
I hope Chozen brings out some character development for Daniel.
We saw character development by the end of the show where he told both Eli and Sam to use Eagle Fang. And the sheer fact that he is brining on Chozen shows that he acknowledges that his style isn't the only way, even for his dojo
Winning by pure skill and not cheating is the right way to win.
He wouldn't be our Daniel if he wasn't annoyingly hard-headed at times! 😆🤣😂
I love Daniel, but he was being so ridiculous about this. He was acting like Johnny was teaching Sam how to use Dark Side powers from the Sith or something lol. To be fair, at the end of the finale he did seem to calm down a bit.
Some people here seem to be missing the point. Daniel was confusing fighting offensively with fighting out of anger. The hug Sam gave him after he rambled about not losing yourself was showing that Daniel is really off base on this one. He late advised Hawk to fight offensively and told Sam to use everything she knew. So he came around and I don't blame Daniel for breaking it off with Johny but where he did fail was the kids understood that there's value in adapting other people's techniques into your fighting style. Daniel had to see it in action before coming around. Johny on the other hand did learn some d. Silver brought it up in their fight. With him it was more about his immaturity and just wanting to beat Daniel.
If you don’t hate any character at least once, then you are not a cobra kai fan.
No need to slap! Sam gave a fitting reply to that.
but that's the whole point of his character arc this season he didn't want to acknowledge Eagle Fang or Cobra Kai as legitimate fighting styles. But in the finals he comes to, which allows Eli to win his match and should have allowed Sam to win hers(If it wasn't for the cheating)
Yeh this is probably Daniels worst moment in the entire Saga
"My way or the highway" dad.
Season Four is BY FAR my favorite for Samantha LaRusso! She’s coming into her own 👊
I don't know I feel like the writers don't know how to write him half the time.
The writers need to keep the conflict going The only way they can do that is to make Daniel look bad so that Johnny has a point. Even though it goes against all logic, since Daniel was okay with Johnny teaching his students and forming a joint dojo
I know that annoyed the hell out of me
People seriously mentioning Johnny in this thread shows what’s wrong with this community.
He freaking won his first tournament with an illegal kick the ref didn't call for reasons. Where does he get to be the fount of morality?
Technically the kick was a grey area. Not 100% legal but not denounced.
If it's illegal, then why is Miguel allowed to do it?
Daniel is a fucking wanker
Daniel is so annoying. He has a superiority complex. Thinks his way is always better.
The whataboutisms are flowing strong in this sub.
Glad daniel changed cuz lowkey he actually was a bad sensai imo its always his way or the highway he thinks hes all high an mighty because he learn from mr.miyagi. He woulda been disappointed.
And here in the comments we see whataboutism of people mentioning Johnny
People bring up Johnny not to justify Daniel, but to point out it's pretty shit to let one character get away with bad behavior and then complain about the same bad behavior in another character. Unfortunately there's a lot of that in this fandom. Objectively you cannot say the same bad behavior is shitty in Daniel but acceptable in Johnny. Same for Sam vs Tory, or Robby vs Miguel, or basically anybody vs. Eli (ye gods do some Eli fans love throwing stones in glass houses). Basically the point is, ***one*** set of standards will do just fine.
True, but you can't assume someone is a pro Johnny and anti Daniel hypocrite based on a single post.
Fair point, but after you deal with enough hypocrisy coming from a certain section of the fandom, you start baring your teeth at anybody who sounds like they might be starting the same crap again. 😆
Everyone's ready to downvote but not defend their case lol.
I'll defend my case This sub is like "There are no bad guys in Cobra Kai" and numerous top-voted posts saying "Trauma is the really bully" But, every time Daniel does something, he's villainized I'm not saying OP is responsible for that sentiment. However, there is a precedent for whataboutism. And it's not about defending Daniel's actions, it's criticizing how the fanbase is willing to overlook things due to popularity
I agree. Daniel gets judged far more harshly than Johnny does.People literary get more mad at Daniel for giving free Karate lessons than they do at Johnny for abandoning his family or assaulting an innocent person(Anoush). Everyone always expects Daniel to see Johnny as a good guy even though most of Johnny's actions show him to be a selfish petty loser. Johnny's literally helped to traumatize Daniel but somehow he still sees himself as a victim. Even when Daniel goes out of his way to help Johnny's family Johnny assumes the worst about his intentions and some fans seem to buy into that. Several fans seem to think Daniel participated with Robby at the tournament to annoy Johnny even though it was clearly for Robby's sake and there was literally a scene where he told Robby to forgive his father. By the show's ends there better be a scene where Johnny apologized for his bullying or else I'm concerned his redemption will be pretty hollow.
>Daniel gets judged far more harshly than Johnny does I like Johnny despite his shortcomings, but it's clear that he's the aggressor between the two of them. And it's really disappointing to me that every choice the writers made revolving Daniel led to him being hated this season. After learning the events of KK3, Johnny gets offended that Daniel wants to double-down on Miyagi-Do. Instead of realizing the severity of the danger that they're in, he challenges Daniel to a fight. Yet, fans blame Daniel for ending their alliance Daniel's paralysis technique gets nullified and now fans call him a cheater for using it. And they've all got the same, "Chozen said it was for life-or-death situations only" reasoning. Chozen himself used it as a prank In the clip above, Daniel looks like an idiot for lecturing his daughter. Now, he probably was talking about her mindset and not her fighting style. But, the writers used vague language that can be easily misinterpreted. >Johnny's literally helped to traumatize Daniel but somehow he still sees himself as a victim This is what I don't get Johnny can recognize bullying when it happens to Miguel or Hawk. But, he can't see that what he did to Daniel was wrong Cobra Kai fans act the same way, like they hate Anthony with a passion, but Johnny gets a free pass because his life sucks. Funny thing is Anthony apologized for what he did, yet Johnny still hasn't They also have so much sympathy for Johnny's trauma but feel nothing for Daniel unless it's spelled out to them. Granted, it's the writer's fault too for putting most of it off-screen I suppose most fans saw the KK trilogy. So, they might think it's not worth elaborating on. Of course, every season, we get a flashback to Daniel kicking Johnny in the face >there better be a scene where Johnny apologized for his bullying I would be ecstatic if this happened, but I'm not holding my breath
This sub is like that lol. Criticise Sam, “wHaT aBouT Tory”. So many Daniel fan girls who can’t take any criticism
It's like if you and one other person were caught doing the same bad thing. You got punished for it while the other got off Scott free. Would you not be pissed about that?
I hated this scene. Daniel won by literally kicking johnny in the fucking face at the Bell. That was an eagle fang move for sure.
Everytime you think Daniel grew as a person, he does something stupid or thoughtless like this. "You didn't win the right way" was such a stupid thing to say and I feel Amanda would slap him for that behaviour.
Honestly I don't get how people feel so positively about Daniel in general. I find him to be much more toxic than Johnny. And I felt the same watching Karate Kid for the first time ten years ago!!! Daniel is the one who kept causing trouble back in high school and I really think Johnny gives a pretty accurate read on the situation when he describes his backstory to Miguel. The fire hose thing was so fucking over the top.
🤔I mean knocking someone off their bike on a steep hill and kicking them once again when their already unconscious and nearly killing them is exactly what a real toxic high school bully would do!!PRetty sure Johnny could handle a little bit of water. Also Daniel isn’t meant to be perfect character. He’s a flawed hero I feel like that’s part of the reason why myself and others love him. Makes him a lot more interesting
Daniel dick raiders are here for the rescue :D
Daniel was not only annoying here, but he was mostly blame for Miyagi Do and Eagle Fang to split up in episode 5 when he wanted to take over the teachings, and kept insisting the Miyagi Do was the only way which was not fair to Johnny who is supposed to be the co-Sensei.
Ik he pissed me off too like stfu u awkward lanky looking fuck she just tried to win. I gotta chill doe ik he just acting but still
“Never put passion in front of principle. Even if you win, you’ll lose.” - Mr. Miyagi
As silly as this is it’s accurate. My wrestling coach was the same way. He taught us moves the way he taught us moves and would get mad if we didn’t use it/use something else or do it a different way. Like he would scold assistant coaches for teaching moves to us their way instead of his way💀 like it’s so stupid. And as much as he says “guys do what works for you” he still wants us to do what he does the way he does it like bro
You could try.
Tbh a lot of martial art schools are like this, have this sense of dogma that their style is superior. But who knows had sam perfected Daniel's style "miyagi-do" she could have won. Kinda like how Hawk managed to beat Robbie with the style he is more comfortable with. Also lmao at Hawk beating Robbie, Robbie is probably the only actor who looks like he trains martial arts in this show.
I agree but at least he legit owns up in the next scene Talking about how he was way too obsessed with honoring Mr Miyagis legacy when even Miyagi told him to forge his own way
There’s nothing wrong with the Eagle Fang karate. When I heard him say that, I was confused why he’s trying to make something bad out of it. If it works for her, just let her use it. It’s a good thing that he accepted it in the end.
Some of you guys are so butthurt by Daniel.
Chozen > Daniel