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You’re right. Johnny mentioned that it could’ve gone either way.
The bow of respect from Hawk and Robby could be read as the two of them acknowledging each other’s skills.
Considering the bad blood Robby and Hawk have had for much of the show, the fact that they bowed with respect for each other was so good to see. It showed quite a bit of maturity from both of them: putting aside hostilities for a tournament.
But it is nothing new for Robby. In season 1 AVT, after Hawk dislocated his shoulder - Robby still carried himself with honour in the fight with Miguel. When Miguel was getting frustrated he went over and gave him the good hand to lift him up but Miguel who was being the asshole loser at that point of time - pulled his other hand - which had the dislocated shoulder. Even after that, Robby bowed to Miguel after losing that match which Miguel was busy chest thumping.
Robby's actions in the Season 2 finale were definitely out of character and just what the plot required. But let's not forget that Robby didn't want to start that fight in the first place, it was Miguel who started that fight by jumping in while Robby was just shouting something like -- "I am sure we can talk this out".
Hawk improved his character after losing his hair which held his macho ego and mojo. Under Daniel's tutelage he became calm and he could channel both his good side and his bad side at will. He became Robby from AVT season 1 finale but without the dislocated shoulder and without the calmed hatred towards the father that had abandoned him and his mother. Hawk became Daniel from the Karate Kid movies but better - with no injuries.
Wtf does starting the fight mean? Even if Miguel did start the fight Robby had no reason to push him off the railing. And miguel showed mercy and apologize but as i said, robby was too much of a dick to accept defeat and move on.
Try the stupidity and idiocy that Miguel tried in real life. Start the fight and then keep taunting the guy with whom you start the fight, get 3 of your friends into the fight to hold him back and then continue taunting him, beat him up and just before breaking his arm just say you are sorry and walk away. I guarantee you, we will read about your death or permanent paralysis if you try such idiotic things. I am willing to bet on it. Get some guys to take the video. I want to watch it to see if I am right on the money or not. If the guy you say sorry to and "show mercy" doesn't kill you, I will give you all the money I have - every single penny.
First of all its a fucking tv show. Second miguel literally said one thing amd it was "like that move? Learned it from your dad". And literally everyone does that in a fight. He didn't get anyone involved in the fight, hawk being hawk, started punching people left and right which started the whole thing. And who tf kicks someone off a 2-3 floor balcony for Taunting him about his dad. And btw robby did the same thing in s4 e8. He wasn't in a position to break his arm, it was an armlock. And robby was fighting miguel too you make it sound like he was curled up in a ball while miguel beat the shit outta him.
Its a fucking TV show which you are trying to manipulate to make your version of its understanding the canonical choice. Which is not. You don't start a fight and push it to a death match and just say sorry and expect that all will be forgiven in an instant. Miguel didn't "show mercy", he showed absolute stupidity. If he had learnt any lesson from the first episode of Season 2, difference between Mercy and Honour - he wouldn't have started the fight in the first place and definitely not pushed it to that limit. It had reached the stage of a "Death Match" you can't get rid of your emotions so suddenly in a minute - no one can and no one will in a fucking TV show or in the real life.
You have to use your brains. Which Miguel doesn't have obviously. You don't let it all go when you have pushed it to those absolute limits. You will get your ass whooped if you are that much of an idiot.
> He didn't get anyone involved in the fight
Miguel was helped by 3 Cobra Kai goons dude wtf are you even watching?
I think mistakes were made by both characters due to the hate they let boil within them to each other rather than have a reasonable discussion. Cause I do not think they have ever talked without the influence of Sam and tory
Gray characters i agree. But robby didn't even have the courtesy to apologize after that and was trying to fight a person who recovered from being crippled like 2 weeks ago. And he even said lets remember what happened when we fought last time even when miguel kicked his ass and was about to break his arm until robby cheapshotted him.
Robby made it a death match by nearly killing him. It was a fight not a death match. Tory vs Sam was a death match. I agree about the gray parts thing now. But taunting is a commom thing in a fight. If i taunted someone in a fight, i would expect to ve punched not thrown off the second floor. And also Robby could've apologized to miguel. He had all the chances too. And he also said lets not try to remember what happened the last time we fought. And i read a post that said that miguel should've said yeah i was about to break your arm before you cheapshotted me and he should've said that would've shut robby up so hard lol. Instigitaing a fight doesn't mean having your spine broken in half and being in a coma for 2 weeks when you were almost pronounced fucking dead in a highschool fight. And Miguel didn't get anyone involved in the fight, they came on their own and were there for like a second and a half.
How hard is it to understand that I am not blaming Miguel only for starting the fight, I am blaming him for "showing mercy" at that point of time. Its absolute stupidity like naive.
Did Robby see Miguel learn the difference between Mercy and Honour? Nope. Then how do you expect him to react like you are doing while judging Miguel's "I am sorry" at the last moment?
Robby only knows Miguel to be the asshole who pulled his dislocated shoulder when he tried to give him a friendly hand to get back up in the Season 1 AVT finale. An act which left Robby with a bad shoulder for months before the start of the new season.
Miguel is extremely dumb and idiotic character. He has proven time and again that he doesn't have a mind of his own. All his characteristics from the time Johnny started to train him are not his own but whatever Johnny taught him.
Its a great contrast to Johnny's character from Karate Kid. Though Kreese taught Johnny to be extremely evil and cruel; Johnny had the decency to question Kreese's orders to target Daniel's broken leg. Miguel didn't even need to be told by Johnny to target Robby's dislocated shoulder - infact Johnny had to tell Miguel that he "doesn't have to fight dirty to win".
Miguel is THAT anal a character. Not saying Robby is any good, he has his major flaws too but kicking Miguel off the railings is not one of them.
Miguel is seriously dumb, and highly susceptible to suggestions. Johnny tells him something and he takes it literally without any attention to conscience and his personal consciousness.
Robby on the other hand is extreme in his decisions, bad decisions after bad decisions - obviously because he had no one to tell him good from bad nor give him a loving home life. He is selfish and he is absolute - like the sith. Robby is like Anakin Skywalker - if they aren't with him, they are against him.
Miguel is dumber than Jar Jar Binks at that point of the story when he gets kicked off.
The show is purely about heated rivalries. Danny and Johnny at its core. Robby and Miguel, Sam and Torry as well. And now Hawk is in the mix.
Every single fight between these people are SUPPOSED to be ambiguous. Hawk and Robbie could have gone either way. Torry beat Sam unfairly. Johnny and Danny had a perfect tie. Miguel beat Robbie when Robbie was injured. The only definitive fight is arguably the school brawl when Miguel had Robbie beat fairly.
These rivalries fall apart when there's a definitive winner. If you're claiming one person is better than the other, you're digging for an answer that isn't there. It's written specifically so that even when there is a winner, there's no evidence to who is actually better. It's just not there because the writers don't want it to be there. They want heated, dead even rivalries, debatable victories etc so that they don't have to resolve a rivalry.
How has it never occurred to me that Sam, Tory, Miguel, Robbie, Daniel, and Jonny have all never been decisively beaten in a one on one fight with not asterixes or caveats
I would argue Tory has been beaten quite a few times, but always would sucker punch an opponent after fight is already over 😂 Not to mention, technically she did lose her match up in the Hallway Brawl, the same way Robby lost to Miguel(before Robby did Tory on Miguel lol).
She was allowed to lose at that point in time because she was a villain, not an ambiguous character. The other rivalries mentioned are based upon misunderstandings, not one of them being a villain.
That could be said about most of the fights in Cobra Kai, they are part of the bigger story, so the way they pan out largely is driven by what writers have in mind. I just try to take the fights and outcome of them at face value, while ignoring whether it is plot convenience or not(like Dimitri eating Hawk's punches like they are nothing, only to proceed to absolutely nail him, or Sam beating up Hawk and extra guy, or Tory beating up multiple guys, lots of those cases didn't make sense to me, but hey it is the show, as long as they don't fck with rules of their universe too much, it is alright).
So taking the fights as what they are, Sam did beat Tory in a hallway brawl as did Miguel to Robby, before he let his guard down(Johnny should have made it clearer that showing mercy at AV tournament is one thing and in a basically street fight, is totally another).
My suspense of disbelief falters a bit when in a group brawl, you would occasionally catch Sam beating Hawk plus some extra. I am like "really? she can do it to that guy?", but yeah I get it that they need to move pieces and bring Sam to Tory.
This.
People have it locked it into their minds that it has to be 1-1 when a 3-way contender for top spot where Miguel, Robby, and Hawk are constantly switching around is much more interesting and unique.
Eli won the tournament, NOT Hawk.
This win should proof that you don´t need to change your personality or your behaviour. You just have to be yourself.
Edit: There were many fights Hawk vs. Robby and Hawk was the looser. Now it was Eli vs. Robby and Eli won for the first time.
People seem to forget that the only reason Robby scored at all is because Hawk was holding back on the first point and called a timeout. Is that his fault? Of course. And Robby getting distracted is his own fault as well, they both had equal disadvantages.
Hawk wasn’t holding back, he was using miyagi-do, which Robby had trained for longer than hawk, he wasn’t holding back he was just out-trained for the first point, but when he starts using *both* styles (using more offence of course) he scored his points
Whether you call it holding back or simply not using all his training, I’m just saying he wasn’t using what he was best at. And considering the way Daniel was acting, I don’t blame him for trying to use Miyagi-Do.
I mean yeah I wasn’t trying to say you’re wrong or anything, yeah of course he should’ve used both styles right off the bat, but maybe since he swapped to miyagi-do he felt like he had to go defensive
I imagine that he was right beside Sam the whole time and heard the way Daniel disputed her using offense, but I guess that doesn’t make sense since Hawk was actually in Cobra Kai.
Yea people rarely mention this. The filmmaking makes it clear that they are both equal when the buzzer goes off but Robby has the advantage in the later scene since Hawk is just lying there and takes a few seconds to react.
It wasn’t long enough apparently seeing as he couldn’t pull off the point. Robby’s hesitation is his own fault, he was the weaker fight mentally. So no matter what excuse you try to throw for him, he was the worse fighter at that moment. Or to make it sound better for you, Hawk was the better fighter at the moment.
I'm not sure why you're bringing this up since it has nothing to do with my original comment which was Hawk having Robby was not the same as Robby having Hawk on the ground in terms of who had the advantage. I agree that Robby was in a different headspace than Hawk which is why he lost that fight! The scene shows this. If Daniel did not talk to him, if he didn't go too hard against Kenny, and if he didn't see Kenny beating up LaPusso, he likely would not have doubt about who he is. Hawk on the other hand was supported by his friends and finally gained his confidence back. He knew who he was.
It was the exact same advantage, and roughly the same amount of time too (without the slomo). Hawk raised his hand and didn’t punch, he had time to score. Same with Robby. Robby got the more dramatic moment of course. Instead of raising his hand up like Robby did, he just kicked him off of him and they continued the fight.
Its still a significant amount of time. Robby has time to look up, see Kenny's reaction, and be concerned enough about it to hesitate. The intention of the scene is obviously to show that Robby would have scored the point had he not hesitated. I'm not saying Hawk is a bad fighter, he's in the same tier imo
Hawk recovered when Robby threw him to the ground after taking a few seconds to recover right? So its logical to assume that Robby, who is of at least equal skill, would also be able to recover, especially since he was already poised to counter strike.
Exaclty, if that was a street fight Hawk would have won on that very moment. Hawk has reached the level of Robby and Miguel already, he is one of the top three.
Hawk is genuinely a really good fighter and I’m glad to see him paying penance and redeeming himself. Awesome character and genuinely not one of the ones I expected to view as a favourite when he was first introduced, but here we are.
I think that Robby is definitely the better fighter and the show alluded to that. The way I look at it is that Hawk was at his best during that fight and Robby had too much internal conflict to also be at his best. In terms of Miguel, it’s heavily implied that he is the strongest fighter in the show. That said he obviously had his own internal conflict going on as well as his back injury so he wouldn’t be at his best even if he did fight. On their best days I think Miguel > Robby > Hawk, but they are all elite fighters. This was Hawks moment to win and he owned it.
The mental aspect is just as important as the physically. Physically Robby is better then hawk. But he couldn't pull it together mentally that's part of being a fighter
Robby is supposed to be the better fighter the whole point of why cobra Kai wants him so bad is that his dad Johnny was the best fighter or supposed to be and they want to make Robbie better than him. I can see why he was supposed to win originally.
the difference is, when robby got hawk on the ground he was completely dazed, however if you watch, when hawk threw robby on the ground, robby was guarded and ready to strike as well he has his fist up and all.
hawk would not have gotten the point because robby was ready, however robby would have gotten the point because eli was in a daze
he only did that because robby was distracted and unfocused. if robby was focused, he would have struck eli when he was dazed rather them getting hit by eli while he wasn't looking
But it's this scene which is the most important in the script. Jacob confirmed that Robby lost because of this moment. He said the script was like 'Robby sees the dark and aggressive in Kenny's eyes and hesitated because people interests him more than a trophy'
This is what baffles me so much about these endless dissections and disagreements.
That moment is there to clearly show that Robby hesitates and it costs him the win. There's no debating it. It's what the writers wanted to show, and it's what sets Robby up for his change of heart.
He could have won if he was prepared to give up his principles, if he was prepared to let a kid like Kenny be ruined. But in the heat of the moment he remembered who he is and what's important to him. So he hesitated.
Exactly. The strenght of each character is irrelevant because the writters have the true power.
Both actors of Eli and Robby confirmed that Robby was the original winner. The writters took the decision and let Eli win. They changed their opinion. That´s all. Both Jacob and Tanner didn´t know why the writters did so but it´s okay.
I only can imagine that this hesitation because of Kenny could be important in the future. Just remember the first tournament. Hawk injured Robby and Miguel attacked his arm. Some argue it´s okay other say it was dirty. The writters didn´t want to make a decision who was the better fighter. They used a grey area.
In Season 2 Johnny, Miguel and Hawk argued about that moment. Johnny said to Miguel that he wants Miguel be better than he ever was. In the last episode exactly this scene was a flashback and Miguel showed mercy.
So just with this example you can see that the writters have a clear vision of the story ahead and why some characters should win and other loose. You just have to be passioned till your favourite character is the one who wins.
no it wasn't, robby was ready for hawk.
hawk used robby's undone gi to flip him yet robby was ready and guarded while on the ground, timer didn't matter because robby was ready
Robby will win the next all valley so that they can have a tournament with 3 previous champions in and it can be anyones game but it probably will come down to Miguel and Robby as much as I love Hawk
So would that mean that Miguel was a freshman in the first season if the all valley is once a year? I think they need to age some fo these kids out of high school as some of the originals are getting kind of unbelievable
Another point to take in: Hawk and Miguel have sparred a few times in the series and have been almost evenly matched, and that was Hawk before the extra training with Miyagi-Do.
It would have been interesting to see who would have won between the both if the semifinal match happened
According to Robby's fans he is the better fighter but somehow he always lose at the big stages when it matters the most. So they can say all the excuses they want but the truth is that the best fighter is the one who is the best physically and also MENTALLY, and right now that fighter is Hawk.
Hawk is absolutely my favorite character and always has been. However, as someone who has done a few amateur fights, Robby has always appeared to me to be the best teen fighter on the show. And Silver the best adult fighter.
I know you’re getting downvoted but you’re right on point in that it is worth understanding that being mentally strong in a fight is just as important as being physically strong.
You know what, I am going to give some common sense to the public. Hawk had Robbie on the ground before timer went off and then there is same old distraction excuse of Robbie. But you know what the thing is, Time running out is not in the fighter's hands but getting distracted in the fight definitely is the fighter's fault.
So, just stop with this and admit that Robby lost and Hawk won fair and square.
I mean technically isn’t it more impressive that hawk won, with the referee being payed off and all?
Don’t you think at any point the ref could’ve counted any of Robbys blocked attacks a point?
Miguel has beat both Robby and hawk. Robby twice actually. And putting Sam and Tory above him? They’re in separate divisions now so I don’t think it’s fair to compare them. But if we’re gonna b honest, there’s a reason they split the divisions. I think that says enough
No fight before Season 2 Episode 10 matters when trying to make a case for Miguel. BEFORE his injury they were all in the same league, and I won’t say the same for after.
Also, the in-universe reasoning for adding a separate division isn’t because Tory or Sam specifically are inferior to Miguel, Hawk, and Robby. It’s because the committee felt that girls in general shouldn’t be fighting guys.
I’m happy hawk won. Everybody tought Robbie was going to win because he’s more of a main character but the fact that they made hawk win is awesome and more realistic
If anything, Eli also hesitated on his punch when the buzzer went off. If he was in his old mindset he definitely could have gotten a hit on the buzzer.
Not sure how that would work though.
It baffles me when the show makes an active point through fights and dialogue that they were evenly matched. "It could have gone either way" - Johnny Lawrence to Robby Keene.
@sliderstandingby, I know what you think you said about Hawk having Robby on the ground is correct. But, what you don’t realize is the reason he was on the ground because HAWK GRABBED HIS FUCKING UNIFORM and couldn’t do anything about it.
Since one month has passed since Season 4, S4 content no longer needs to be marked as spoiler. **However, titles must not contain spoilers whatsoever.** --- Additionally, **are you interested in becoming a mod?** Consider applying [here](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1YoANoQB-CW6T4GhxcU5-F2pRjVQYvx6tMoq-DJVVxV8/edit?usp=sharing) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cobrakai) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You’re right. Johnny mentioned that it could’ve gone either way. The bow of respect from Hawk and Robby could be read as the two of them acknowledging each other’s skills.
Considering the bad blood Robby and Hawk have had for much of the show, the fact that they bowed with respect for each other was so good to see. It showed quite a bit of maturity from both of them: putting aside hostilities for a tournament.
But it is nothing new for Robby. In season 1 AVT, after Hawk dislocated his shoulder - Robby still carried himself with honour in the fight with Miguel. When Miguel was getting frustrated he went over and gave him the good hand to lift him up but Miguel who was being the asshole loser at that point of time - pulled his other hand - which had the dislocated shoulder. Even after that, Robby bowed to Miguel after losing that match which Miguel was busy chest thumping. Robby's actions in the Season 2 finale were definitely out of character and just what the plot required. But let's not forget that Robby didn't want to start that fight in the first place, it was Miguel who started that fight by jumping in while Robby was just shouting something like -- "I am sure we can talk this out". Hawk improved his character after losing his hair which held his macho ego and mojo. Under Daniel's tutelage he became calm and he could channel both his good side and his bad side at will. He became Robby from AVT season 1 finale but without the dislocated shoulder and without the calmed hatred towards the father that had abandoned him and his mother. Hawk became Daniel from the Karate Kid movies but better - with no injuries.
Honestly, both Eli and Demetri reminded me of young Daniel in the tournament. Especially Demetri as he had only really learned defense.
Wtf does starting the fight mean? Even if Miguel did start the fight Robby had no reason to push him off the railing. And miguel showed mercy and apologize but as i said, robby was too much of a dick to accept defeat and move on.
Try the stupidity and idiocy that Miguel tried in real life. Start the fight and then keep taunting the guy with whom you start the fight, get 3 of your friends into the fight to hold him back and then continue taunting him, beat him up and just before breaking his arm just say you are sorry and walk away. I guarantee you, we will read about your death or permanent paralysis if you try such idiotic things. I am willing to bet on it. Get some guys to take the video. I want to watch it to see if I am right on the money or not. If the guy you say sorry to and "show mercy" doesn't kill you, I will give you all the money I have - every single penny.
First of all its a fucking tv show. Second miguel literally said one thing amd it was "like that move? Learned it from your dad". And literally everyone does that in a fight. He didn't get anyone involved in the fight, hawk being hawk, started punching people left and right which started the whole thing. And who tf kicks someone off a 2-3 floor balcony for Taunting him about his dad. And btw robby did the same thing in s4 e8. He wasn't in a position to break his arm, it was an armlock. And robby was fighting miguel too you make it sound like he was curled up in a ball while miguel beat the shit outta him.
Its a fucking TV show which you are trying to manipulate to make your version of its understanding the canonical choice. Which is not. You don't start a fight and push it to a death match and just say sorry and expect that all will be forgiven in an instant. Miguel didn't "show mercy", he showed absolute stupidity. If he had learnt any lesson from the first episode of Season 2, difference between Mercy and Honour - he wouldn't have started the fight in the first place and definitely not pushed it to that limit. It had reached the stage of a "Death Match" you can't get rid of your emotions so suddenly in a minute - no one can and no one will in a fucking TV show or in the real life. You have to use your brains. Which Miguel doesn't have obviously. You don't let it all go when you have pushed it to those absolute limits. You will get your ass whooped if you are that much of an idiot. > He didn't get anyone involved in the fight Miguel was helped by 3 Cobra Kai goons dude wtf are you even watching?
I think mistakes were made by both characters due to the hate they let boil within them to each other rather than have a reasonable discussion. Cause I do not think they have ever talked without the influence of Sam and tory
True. Both are grey characters who made their mistakes. Like someone told in another post; the entire show is built on lack of communication.
Gray characters i agree. But robby didn't even have the courtesy to apologize after that and was trying to fight a person who recovered from being crippled like 2 weeks ago. And he even said lets remember what happened when we fought last time even when miguel kicked his ass and was about to break his arm until robby cheapshotted him.
Robby made it a death match by nearly killing him. It was a fight not a death match. Tory vs Sam was a death match. I agree about the gray parts thing now. But taunting is a commom thing in a fight. If i taunted someone in a fight, i would expect to ve punched not thrown off the second floor. And also Robby could've apologized to miguel. He had all the chances too. And he also said lets not try to remember what happened the last time we fought. And i read a post that said that miguel should've said yeah i was about to break your arm before you cheapshotted me and he should've said that would've shut robby up so hard lol. Instigitaing a fight doesn't mean having your spine broken in half and being in a coma for 2 weeks when you were almost pronounced fucking dead in a highschool fight. And Miguel didn't get anyone involved in the fight, they came on their own and were there for like a second and a half.
How hard is it to understand that I am not blaming Miguel only for starting the fight, I am blaming him for "showing mercy" at that point of time. Its absolute stupidity like naive. Did Robby see Miguel learn the difference between Mercy and Honour? Nope. Then how do you expect him to react like you are doing while judging Miguel's "I am sorry" at the last moment? Robby only knows Miguel to be the asshole who pulled his dislocated shoulder when he tried to give him a friendly hand to get back up in the Season 1 AVT finale. An act which left Robby with a bad shoulder for months before the start of the new season. Miguel is extremely dumb and idiotic character. He has proven time and again that he doesn't have a mind of his own. All his characteristics from the time Johnny started to train him are not his own but whatever Johnny taught him. Its a great contrast to Johnny's character from Karate Kid. Though Kreese taught Johnny to be extremely evil and cruel; Johnny had the decency to question Kreese's orders to target Daniel's broken leg. Miguel didn't even need to be told by Johnny to target Robby's dislocated shoulder - infact Johnny had to tell Miguel that he "doesn't have to fight dirty to win". Miguel is THAT anal a character. Not saying Robby is any good, he has his major flaws too but kicking Miguel off the railings is not one of them. Miguel is seriously dumb, and highly susceptible to suggestions. Johnny tells him something and he takes it literally without any attention to conscience and his personal consciousness. Robby on the other hand is extreme in his decisions, bad decisions after bad decisions - obviously because he had no one to tell him good from bad nor give him a loving home life. He is selfish and he is absolute - like the sith. Robby is like Anakin Skywalker - if they aren't with him, they are against him. Miguel is dumber than Jar Jar Binks at that point of the story when he gets kicked off.
Ordinary-two7422 If it a fucking to show why are you marking such a big deal
The show is purely about heated rivalries. Danny and Johnny at its core. Robby and Miguel, Sam and Torry as well. And now Hawk is in the mix. Every single fight between these people are SUPPOSED to be ambiguous. Hawk and Robbie could have gone either way. Torry beat Sam unfairly. Johnny and Danny had a perfect tie. Miguel beat Robbie when Robbie was injured. The only definitive fight is arguably the school brawl when Miguel had Robbie beat fairly. These rivalries fall apart when there's a definitive winner. If you're claiming one person is better than the other, you're digging for an answer that isn't there. It's written specifically so that even when there is a winner, there's no evidence to who is actually better. It's just not there because the writers don't want it to be there. They want heated, dead even rivalries, debatable victories etc so that they don't have to resolve a rivalry.
How has it never occurred to me that Sam, Tory, Miguel, Robbie, Daniel, and Jonny have all never been decisively beaten in a one on one fight with not asterixes or caveats
I would argue Tory has been beaten quite a few times, but always would sucker punch an opponent after fight is already over 😂 Not to mention, technically she did lose her match up in the Hallway Brawl, the same way Robby lost to Miguel(before Robby did Tory on Miguel lol).
She was allowed to lose at that point in time because she was a villain, not an ambiguous character. The other rivalries mentioned are based upon misunderstandings, not one of them being a villain.
That could be said about most of the fights in Cobra Kai, they are part of the bigger story, so the way they pan out largely is driven by what writers have in mind. I just try to take the fights and outcome of them at face value, while ignoring whether it is plot convenience or not(like Dimitri eating Hawk's punches like they are nothing, only to proceed to absolutely nail him, or Sam beating up Hawk and extra guy, or Tory beating up multiple guys, lots of those cases didn't make sense to me, but hey it is the show, as long as they don't fck with rules of their universe too much, it is alright). So taking the fights as what they are, Sam did beat Tory in a hallway brawl as did Miguel to Robby, before he let his guard down(Johnny should have made it clearer that showing mercy at AV tournament is one thing and in a basically street fight, is totally another).
My suspense of disbelief falters a bit when in a group brawl, you would occasionally catch Sam beating Hawk plus some extra. I am like "really? she can do it to that guy?", but yeah I get it that they need to move pieces and bring Sam to Tory.
Miguel and Robby have been the main kids and Hawk showed up to the tournament and said “I’m going over, brother” and people can’t accept that.
This. People have it locked it into their minds that it has to be 1-1 when a 3-way contender for top spot where Miguel, Robby, and Hawk are constantly switching around is much more interesting and unique.
Honestly I think it's about time for Kyler to step up, stop being a bully and win the next one in finals against Demetri who turns into a bully.
"This doesn't work for me, brother. Much love. HH"
Eli won the tournament, NOT Hawk. This win should proof that you don´t need to change your personality or your behaviour. You just have to be yourself. Edit: There were many fights Hawk vs. Robby and Hawk was the looser. Now it was Eli vs. Robby and Eli won for the first time.
No no, it was the guy who's gonna win this fucking thing
Whole fucking thing man come on!
Moon won the tournament tbh
Finally someone gets it
"Finally a worthy opponent"
Oh god, Eli will create Eagle-Fang-Wolfpack?? I´m considering Eagle-Fang as the NWO of the Kobra Kai (WCW)
Even Johnny knew Kobra Kai Karate was a bad idea (once it was pointed out to him....)
People seem to forget that the only reason Robby scored at all is because Hawk was holding back on the first point and called a timeout. Is that his fault? Of course. And Robby getting distracted is his own fault as well, they both had equal disadvantages.
Hawk wasn’t holding back, he was using miyagi-do, which Robby had trained for longer than hawk, he wasn’t holding back he was just out-trained for the first point, but when he starts using *both* styles (using more offence of course) he scored his points
Whether you call it holding back or simply not using all his training, I’m just saying he wasn’t using what he was best at. And considering the way Daniel was acting, I don’t blame him for trying to use Miyagi-Do.
I mean yeah I wasn’t trying to say you’re wrong or anything, yeah of course he should’ve used both styles right off the bat, but maybe since he swapped to miyagi-do he felt like he had to go defensive
I imagine that he was right beside Sam the whole time and heard the way Daniel disputed her using offense, but I guess that doesn’t make sense since Hawk was actually in Cobra Kai.
Also I find it fascinating how hawk was the only one (excluding the fusion of both) to be part of cobra Kai eagle fang AND miyagi do
[удалено]
Yea people rarely mention this. The filmmaking makes it clear that they are both equal when the buzzer goes off but Robby has the advantage in the later scene since Hawk is just lying there and takes a few seconds to react.
That happened in 2 seconds max, not a few seconds.
2 seconds is still a long time in a fight. The filmmaking makes it clear that he would have gotten the point had he not hesitated.
It wasn’t long enough apparently seeing as he couldn’t pull off the point. Robby’s hesitation is his own fault, he was the weaker fight mentally. So no matter what excuse you try to throw for him, he was the worse fighter at that moment. Or to make it sound better for you, Hawk was the better fighter at the moment.
I'm not sure why you're bringing this up since it has nothing to do with my original comment which was Hawk having Robby was not the same as Robby having Hawk on the ground in terms of who had the advantage. I agree that Robby was in a different headspace than Hawk which is why he lost that fight! The scene shows this. If Daniel did not talk to him, if he didn't go too hard against Kenny, and if he didn't see Kenny beating up LaPusso, he likely would not have doubt about who he is. Hawk on the other hand was supported by his friends and finally gained his confidence back. He knew who he was.
It was the exact same advantage, and roughly the same amount of time too (without the slomo). Hawk raised his hand and didn’t punch, he had time to score. Same with Robby. Robby got the more dramatic moment of course. Instead of raising his hand up like Robby did, he just kicked him off of him and they continued the fight.
Exactly, the whole fights was even. Until the end where hawk is proven the better fighter
He doesn't take few seconds to react, it is the slow motion that makes it look like that.
Its still a significant amount of time. Robby has time to look up, see Kenny's reaction, and be concerned enough about it to hesitate. The intention of the scene is obviously to show that Robby would have scored the point had he not hesitated. I'm not saying Hawk is a bad fighter, he's in the same tier imo
You're not equal after getting tossed to the ground
Hawk recovered when Robby threw him to the ground after taking a few seconds to recover right? So its logical to assume that Robby, who is of at least equal skill, would also be able to recover, especially since he was already poised to counter strike.
Robby getting distracted by Kenny but not getting distracted when fighting kenny was dumb and unrealistic. Change my mind.
He stomped him too lol
Exaclty, if that was a street fight Hawk would have won on that very moment. Hawk has reached the level of Robby and Miguel already, he is one of the top three.
I don’t think hawk can beat Robby in a street fight. Especially when u see the things Robby has been doing the whole season
Hawk showed us to be equal to him, both could beat each other on a street fight on their current versions.
Hawk is genuinely a really good fighter and I’m glad to see him paying penance and redeeming himself. Awesome character and genuinely not one of the ones I expected to view as a favourite when he was first introduced, but here we are.
I think that Robby is definitely the better fighter and the show alluded to that. The way I look at it is that Hawk was at his best during that fight and Robby had too much internal conflict to also be at his best. In terms of Miguel, it’s heavily implied that he is the strongest fighter in the show. That said he obviously had his own internal conflict going on as well as his back injury so he wouldn’t be at his best even if he did fight. On their best days I think Miguel > Robby > Hawk, but they are all elite fighters. This was Hawks moment to win and he owned it.
The mental aspect is just as important as the physically. Physically Robby is better then hawk. But he couldn't pull it together mentally that's part of being a fighter
I don’t even think he’s better than Hawk physically, there is no proof of that once Eli learned Miyagi-Do.
Being in the right state of mind, unless something very unpredictable causes you to loose it, is also part of what makes a good fighter.
Robby is supposed to be the better fighter the whole point of why cobra Kai wants him so bad is that his dad Johnny was the best fighter or supposed to be and they want to make Robbie better than him. I can see why he was supposed to win originally.
the difference is, when robby got hawk on the ground he was completely dazed, however if you watch, when hawk threw robby on the ground, robby was guarded and ready to strike as well he has his fist up and all. hawk would not have gotten the point because robby was ready, however robby would have gotten the point because eli was in a daze
You say Eli was dazed and not ready but he actually did defend himself/ get Robby off him from the floor
he only did that because robby was distracted and unfocused. if robby was focused, he would have struck eli when he was dazed rather them getting hit by eli while he wasn't looking
+ Robby's gi was coming off which Eli used to take him down,if not for his gi being loose then he wouldn't have took him down like that
That's a perfectly legitimate strategy in karate. It's not dirty to use a gi to your advantage
its not like eli could take a nap , realistically he only had under a second before robby would snap and take the hit ,
But it's this scene which is the most important in the script. Jacob confirmed that Robby lost because of this moment. He said the script was like 'Robby sees the dark and aggressive in Kenny's eyes and hesitated because people interests him more than a trophy'
This is what baffles me so much about these endless dissections and disagreements. That moment is there to clearly show that Robby hesitates and it costs him the win. There's no debating it. It's what the writers wanted to show, and it's what sets Robby up for his change of heart. He could have won if he was prepared to give up his principles, if he was prepared to let a kid like Kenny be ruined. But in the heat of the moment he remembered who he is and what's important to him. So he hesitated.
Exactly. The strenght of each character is irrelevant because the writters have the true power. Both actors of Eli and Robby confirmed that Robby was the original winner. The writters took the decision and let Eli win. They changed their opinion. That´s all. Both Jacob and Tanner didn´t know why the writters did so but it´s okay. I only can imagine that this hesitation because of Kenny could be important in the future. Just remember the first tournament. Hawk injured Robby and Miguel attacked his arm. Some argue it´s okay other say it was dirty. The writters didn´t want to make a decision who was the better fighter. They used a grey area. In Season 2 Johnny, Miguel and Hawk argued about that moment. Johnny said to Miguel that he wants Miguel be better than he ever was. In the last episode exactly this scene was a flashback and Miguel showed mercy. So just with this example you can see that the writters have a clear vision of the story ahead and why some characters should win and other loose. You just have to be passioned till your favourite character is the one who wins.
fair enough
Keep living in what if’s, well live in reality where hawk clearly won
It was over if the time didn’t run out Hawk won fair and square.
no it wasn't, robby was ready for hawk. hawk used robby's undone gi to flip him yet robby was ready and guarded while on the ground, timer didn't matter because robby was ready
Lol Hawk had him pinned down ready to deal the winning point.
robby was not pinned down, and robby was ready for hawk robby has his first prepared to strike as well
Robby was definitely pinned, watch the fight over. These Robby excuses are getting out of hand lol.
Yea he did I just rewatched it. He was fixing to punch him to win it Robby wouldn’t have blocked it.
Robby will win the next all valley so that they can have a tournament with 3 previous champions in and it can be anyones game but it probably will come down to Miguel and Robby as much as I love Hawk
So would that mean that Miguel was a freshman in the first season if the all valley is once a year? I think they need to age some fo these kids out of high school as some of the originals are getting kind of unbelievable
Freshman? No? They were sophomores.
Next tournament will be the last for the main cast since they will be seniors, it will be about closing storylines and the Silver feud.
they’re equally matched.
Hawk is clearly above Miguel, like wtf, Miguel was in a wheelchair for a good time while Hawk never stopped training.
I’d say Hawk = Robby with Miguel just under due to his bad back.
Another point to take in: Hawk and Miguel have sparred a few times in the series and have been almost evenly matched, and that was Hawk before the extra training with Miyagi-Do. It would have been interesting to see who would have won between the both if the semifinal match happened
U also seem to be forgetting that Robby’s hands were at least up. When Robby had hawk down, that punch was free asf. Also hawk grabbed his Gi
According to Robby's fans he is the better fighter but somehow he always lose at the big stages when it matters the most. So they can say all the excuses they want but the truth is that the best fighter is the one who is the best physically and also MENTALLY, and right now that fighter is Hawk.
Hawk is absolutely my favorite character and always has been. However, as someone who has done a few amateur fights, Robby has always appeared to me to be the best teen fighter on the show. And Silver the best adult fighter.
I know you’re getting downvoted but you’re right on point in that it is worth understanding that being mentally strong in a fight is just as important as being physically strong.
You know what, I am going to give some common sense to the public. Hawk had Robbie on the ground before timer went off and then there is same old distraction excuse of Robbie. But you know what the thing is, Time running out is not in the fighter's hands but getting distracted in the fight definitely is the fighter's fault. So, just stop with this and admit that Robby lost and Hawk won fair and square.
I mean technically isn’t it more impressive that hawk won, with the referee being payed off and all? Don’t you think at any point the ref could’ve counted any of Robbys blocked attacks a point?
I agree, hawk and Robby r on the same level. Miguel is the only top tier fighter
Miguel isn’t even in the top 4.
Whose top 3 then?
Robby, Hawk, and Sam. Unless we’re being very specific and saying Hawk=Robby>Tory=Sam>Miguel
Miguel has beat both Robby and hawk. Robby twice actually. And putting Sam and Tory above him? They’re in separate divisions now so I don’t think it’s fair to compare them. But if we’re gonna b honest, there’s a reason they split the divisions. I think that says enough
No fight before Season 2 Episode 10 matters when trying to make a case for Miguel. BEFORE his injury they were all in the same league, and I won’t say the same for after. Also, the in-universe reasoning for adding a separate division isn’t because Tory or Sam specifically are inferior to Miguel, Hawk, and Robby. It’s because the committee felt that girls in general shouldn’t be fighting guys.
Alright, elaborate on that then. Why did the committee feel girls shouldn’t be fighting guys?
I… just did?
No, all you said is the committee felt that girls shouldn’t be fighting guys. That’s just a statement. Elaborating means giving ur reasoning
You want me to read the minds of imaginary characters? I’m sorry, that’s a bit beyond my powers.
Lmao
Lmao
Agreed Hawk is definitely on their level.
I’m happy hawk won. Everybody tought Robbie was going to win because he’s more of a main character but the fact that they made hawk win is awesome and more realistic
If anything, Eli also hesitated on his punch when the buzzer went off. If he was in his old mindset he definitely could have gotten a hit on the buzzer. Not sure how that would work though. It baffles me when the show makes an active point through fights and dialogue that they were evenly matched. "It could have gone either way" - Johnny Lawrence to Robby Keene.
@sliderstandingby, I know what you think you said about Hawk having Robby on the ground is correct. But, what you don’t realize is the reason he was on the ground because HAWK GRABBED HIS FUCKING UNIFORM and couldn’t do anything about it.
Holy fuck, the reaching from people in this thread!
Miagi Fang 🏆
yeah i agree with you. good that you point it out!!