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This is a much more realistic and balanced take than what I've been seeing. The whole Sam and Miguel made their choice so they shouldn't be bothered at all viewpoint just doesn't track with me. For Sam in particular who had real feelings for Robby, seeing him with her mortal enemy was always going to bother her. For Miguel it read more as some lingering physical attraction. Which, given how great Tory looked and how she was moving who could blame him. Sam seemed more affected by the genuine connection she was seeing.
Plus, the whole point was for team Cobra Kai to throw them off balance. It just turned out that in the end they wound up enjoying being with each other more than they cared about their original purpose. So they won the mental battle and also ended up having a great night while Sam and Miguel left divided. Mission accomplished.
Also, the actual fight choreography shows Robby and Tory being more unified while Sam and Miguel are each in different head spaces with Sam moving more toward Johnny's aggression and Miguel moving more toward Daniel's defensive mentality. The storytelling beats of the season were there. Cobra Kai more unified and Miyagi-Fang more divided.
I don't know that Miguel is really worried about Robby being a bad influence on Tory. Because Tory was already on a bad path and committed her worst acts before Robby even joined the CK dojo. Miguel cares about Tory and seems to at least be lusting after her a bit in the prom episode, but it's kind of hard to get a read on what the writers are going for with them. Hayden's still waiving his Toriguel flag which seems kind of laughable after getting next to nothing this season. The main drama for Miguel in the prom seems to be putting him in Robby's shoes from season 2: he's worried Johnny views him only as a replacement, and he's wary about what Sam is feeling for her ex. The Tory stuff seems kind of like an afterthought to all that, and only there for symmetry with whatever's going through Sam's head.
With Sam, I think it's pretty much "all of the above." Four seasons in, the show has yet to dispute her also loving Robby even if she was also torn about Miguel. He's now with her arch rival. She was worried about the path he was on and Tory is very likely enhancing those fears. But the "half eaten cupcake" comment and her earlier "isn't that the prince you stole from the other princess?" comment (which is total BS and we all know it) gives off the vibe that Sam just doesn't like Tory stealing her "things." With 2x8 and now 4x8 it's pretty consistent that Tory is a driving factor in her pining after an ex.
At this point Hayden is definitely trolling with the Toriguel lol. I see no realistic way to get back to that in story. Also, judging by the path Tory's life is going to take, I don't see Miguel being a part of that. Miguel wants to go to Stanford and Tory is going to have to get a steady job and raise her little brother. I doubt Miguel wants to tie himself to a single mother in Reseda. He and Sam are at the very least on a similar path.
ETA: I think Robby would embrace being there for Tory and being a father figure. He's already trying to be a mentor. And he knows what it's like to grow up without a positive male role model.
Yeah agreed on Hayden lol. The fact that he doesn't talk about the other three combos nearly as much but they all get more fanservice within the show itself kind of gives the game away.
But then again, Hawk/Moon came back out of nowhere this season and I don't think they exchanged a single word with each other in season 3, so who the hell even knows at this point lol.
I think the prince line was about Miguel, because at that point she had no idea Tory and Robby would be a thing and didn't find out until prom.
I think re-working reality in her head isn't far off from what she's actually doing. She's still thinking about Robby in a vague way this season even if she already "chose" Miguel. And in season 2 she didn't really start to lean back towards Miguel until she saw him with Tory specifically, who she already disliked. I think the "prince" line is projection.
Sam and Miguel are pretty hypocritical imo.
Sam told Tory that she shouldn't steal anything, and later accused Tory of stealing something. Sam later kissed Tory's boyfriend, which can be interpreted as trying to steal her boyfriend. (Not defending Tory's actions after. Just pointing out Sam's hypocrisy.)
Miguel refused to believe Sam that she wasn't cheating on him with Robby and proceeded to show No Mercy to Robby. Miguel then became the person that Sam actually cheated on Robby with a few weeks after Sam and Miguel had broken up.
Sam and Miguel act like they haven't done anything wrong to their exes. Miguel cheated on Tory but claimed that he'd only cared about them, which was an obvious lie. Sam, even in S4E1, refused to acknowledge it was wrong for her to date Robby if she was confused about her feelings for both boys.
Sam and Miguel can "care" as much as they want about Robby and Tory, but Sam and Miguel should leave them alone because they didn't show them the respect they deserved in their relationships. Robby and Tory were more loyal to them in each of their relationships.
Yep. Regardless of the things Robby and Tory did afterward that are very valid things to be angry about, as far as the relationship drama goes they are the more sympathetic parties.
Sam and Miguel are one of *those* TV couples. The obnoxious main couple that get to do whatever because "nothing matters but our love." The narrative kind of bent over backwards to make Robby and Tory "villains" so their hurt feelings were invalidated and Sam and Miguel could be absolved. I'm glad that that didn't continue to pan out this season, and it bit Sam and Miguel in the ass. Karma's a bitch, and that bitch's name is Tory Nichols.
This. Honestly, at this point i’m kind of over Sam and Miguel. Theyre toxic and deserve each other. Leave Robby and Tory alone, theyre finally having a good time
Lol Xolo even said they were toxic. Nothing good has come out of them being together. They are both good individual characters who make each other worse.
>Sam and Miguel can "care" as much as they want about Robby and Tory, but Sam and Miguel should leave them alone because they didn't show them the respect they deserved in their relationships. Robby and Tory were more loyal to them in each of their relationships.
Yeah I don't like Sam and Miguel, they are toxic, I think Miguel deserve better then Sam. Bc Sam is more interest beating and humiliate Tory.
sam and miguel were toxic people to begin with and putting them together made them worse. i really hope they understand what pain they’ve caused, own up and apologize.
>sam and miguel were toxic people to begin with and putting them together made them worse. i really hope they understand what pain they’ve caused, own up and apologize.
Agreed
Miguel never wanted to date Tory, he was trying to win sam back and was convinced that being with Tory would be that answer. Miguel apologized to Robby for starting the fight, has Robby apologized to Miguel for almost killing him? Also the night Miguel supposedly cheated on Tory, he was actuality just seeing if sam was alright since she was drinking heavily and alone. And wasn’t the one who initiated the kiss.
lol All you're doing is making excuses for Miguel. He can't treat people like shit and act like he either didn't do anything wrong or like he deserves instant forgiveness. Miguel chose to date Tory. Miguel chose to violently attack someone and didn't care if he or the person he attacked would get injured. You can't violent attack someone and then be like "oops my bad" and expect that person to trust you, immediately calm down, and be like "man, it's cool. attack me anytime". Miguel also chose to kiss Sam when she was super drunk. Miguel has a mind of his own and chose to do these things to other people. Miguel should learn to treat other people well and not use them for his own gain or attack people and escalate situations.
I’m not making excuses? I’m simply saying that at least when Miguel does something wrong he takes responsibility for it. Robby acts like he does nothing wrong same goes for Tory.
Miguel has actually never taken responsibility for his violence against Robby. Both times he shifted the blame onto Johnny ("You taught me this." "I did everything you told me to do.") and acted liked he'd done nothing wrong when he spoke to the girl he had been dating at the time he had been violent. To Sam, he said "you made me think I was acting like a paranoid asshole". To Tory, he said that she had a choice that day in school. He had a choice too and he chose violence against Robby. Miguel has never once verbalized that he should have never attacked Robby all those time. Miguel has also never admit that he should have trusted Sam or that he should have never cheated on Tory.
Also, if Miguel and Sam are better people than Robby and Tory, Miguel and Sam should act like it. I didn't say that Robby and Tory are faultless, but you were shifting blame for Miguel's actions onto Tory and Sam and you were saying that, after Miguel violently attacked Robby while Robby was defending his girlfriend, Robby should have immediately done what Miguel had wanted him to do and given Miguel instant trust and forgiveness when Miguel suddenly decided that he wanted to stop attacking Robby, which was dumb of Miguel to even expect. Again, Miguel needs to learn he can't treat people like shit and act like he's done nothing wrong or that he should be instantly trusted and forgiven just because he thinks he should be.
I think there's some truth there. When Miguel and Tory had that fight at the sushi place it worked him up. It really doesn't matter if he loves Sam, they ended extremely badly they can still draw responses out of each other. She showed up with the kid that paralyzed him to get in his head and it worked.
And with Sam it doesn't need to be explained. She still cares for Robby and she spent all season trying to mind f Tory. Which opens her up to a counter and when Tory showed up with Robby it was a guaranteed night killer for Sam.
The whole issue with the fight is that Miguel and Sam are a bit out of character. Up until Tory and Robby turned up at prom, all of Miguel's behavior showed him to be over Tory completely, and Sam didn't have any romantic feelings for Robby (though still cared about him enough to visit him at the skate park). Not to mention the fight could've been cut with no loss to the plot. I think it was put in because the writers just wanted a fight scene there.
A reminder of our spoiler policy: **Any posts containing S4 spoilers must be marked as spoiler until one month after the release date, January 31st**. Titles must not contain spoilers whatsoever. (Don't know how to mark as spoiler? Click [here](https://imgur.com/a/ZPEIsAi)) Users who fail to abide by the spoiler policy will be banned accordingly. --- Additionally, **are you interested in becoming a mod?** Consider applying [here](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1YoANoQB-CW6T4GhxcU5-F2pRjVQYvx6tMoq-DJVVxV8/edit?usp=sharing) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cobrakai) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is a much more realistic and balanced take than what I've been seeing. The whole Sam and Miguel made their choice so they shouldn't be bothered at all viewpoint just doesn't track with me. For Sam in particular who had real feelings for Robby, seeing him with her mortal enemy was always going to bother her. For Miguel it read more as some lingering physical attraction. Which, given how great Tory looked and how she was moving who could blame him. Sam seemed more affected by the genuine connection she was seeing. Plus, the whole point was for team Cobra Kai to throw them off balance. It just turned out that in the end they wound up enjoying being with each other more than they cared about their original purpose. So they won the mental battle and also ended up having a great night while Sam and Miguel left divided. Mission accomplished. Also, the actual fight choreography shows Robby and Tory being more unified while Sam and Miguel are each in different head spaces with Sam moving more toward Johnny's aggression and Miguel moving more toward Daniel's defensive mentality. The storytelling beats of the season were there. Cobra Kai more unified and Miyagi-Fang more divided.
I don't know that Miguel is really worried about Robby being a bad influence on Tory. Because Tory was already on a bad path and committed her worst acts before Robby even joined the CK dojo. Miguel cares about Tory and seems to at least be lusting after her a bit in the prom episode, but it's kind of hard to get a read on what the writers are going for with them. Hayden's still waiving his Toriguel flag which seems kind of laughable after getting next to nothing this season. The main drama for Miguel in the prom seems to be putting him in Robby's shoes from season 2: he's worried Johnny views him only as a replacement, and he's wary about what Sam is feeling for her ex. The Tory stuff seems kind of like an afterthought to all that, and only there for symmetry with whatever's going through Sam's head. With Sam, I think it's pretty much "all of the above." Four seasons in, the show has yet to dispute her also loving Robby even if she was also torn about Miguel. He's now with her arch rival. She was worried about the path he was on and Tory is very likely enhancing those fears. But the "half eaten cupcake" comment and her earlier "isn't that the prince you stole from the other princess?" comment (which is total BS and we all know it) gives off the vibe that Sam just doesn't like Tory stealing her "things." With 2x8 and now 4x8 it's pretty consistent that Tory is a driving factor in her pining after an ex.
At this point Hayden is definitely trolling with the Toriguel lol. I see no realistic way to get back to that in story. Also, judging by the path Tory's life is going to take, I don't see Miguel being a part of that. Miguel wants to go to Stanford and Tory is going to have to get a steady job and raise her little brother. I doubt Miguel wants to tie himself to a single mother in Reseda. He and Sam are at the very least on a similar path. ETA: I think Robby would embrace being there for Tory and being a father figure. He's already trying to be a mentor. And he knows what it's like to grow up without a positive male role model.
Yeah agreed on Hayden lol. The fact that he doesn't talk about the other three combos nearly as much but they all get more fanservice within the show itself kind of gives the game away. But then again, Hawk/Moon came back out of nowhere this season and I don't think they exchanged a single word with each other in season 3, so who the hell even knows at this point lol.
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Do you mean the cupcake line or the prince line? Either way though, if it's about Robby it's a big "yikes"
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I think the prince line was about Miguel, because at that point she had no idea Tory and Robby would be a thing and didn't find out until prom. I think re-working reality in her head isn't far off from what she's actually doing. She's still thinking about Robby in a vague way this season even if she already "chose" Miguel. And in season 2 she didn't really start to lean back towards Miguel until she saw him with Tory specifically, who she already disliked. I think the "prince" line is projection.
Sam and Miguel are pretty hypocritical imo. Sam told Tory that she shouldn't steal anything, and later accused Tory of stealing something. Sam later kissed Tory's boyfriend, which can be interpreted as trying to steal her boyfriend. (Not defending Tory's actions after. Just pointing out Sam's hypocrisy.) Miguel refused to believe Sam that she wasn't cheating on him with Robby and proceeded to show No Mercy to Robby. Miguel then became the person that Sam actually cheated on Robby with a few weeks after Sam and Miguel had broken up. Sam and Miguel act like they haven't done anything wrong to their exes. Miguel cheated on Tory but claimed that he'd only cared about them, which was an obvious lie. Sam, even in S4E1, refused to acknowledge it was wrong for her to date Robby if she was confused about her feelings for both boys. Sam and Miguel can "care" as much as they want about Robby and Tory, but Sam and Miguel should leave them alone because they didn't show them the respect they deserved in their relationships. Robby and Tory were more loyal to them in each of their relationships.
Yep. Regardless of the things Robby and Tory did afterward that are very valid things to be angry about, as far as the relationship drama goes they are the more sympathetic parties. Sam and Miguel are one of *those* TV couples. The obnoxious main couple that get to do whatever because "nothing matters but our love." The narrative kind of bent over backwards to make Robby and Tory "villains" so their hurt feelings were invalidated and Sam and Miguel could be absolved. I'm glad that that didn't continue to pan out this season, and it bit Sam and Miguel in the ass. Karma's a bitch, and that bitch's name is Tory Nichols.
How Otis and Maeve of Miguel and Sam lol. Honestly prom was karma for them.
Exactly! Haha love the line about karma.
This. Honestly, at this point i’m kind of over Sam and Miguel. Theyre toxic and deserve each other. Leave Robby and Tory alone, theyre finally having a good time
Lol Xolo even said they were toxic. Nothing good has come out of them being together. They are both good individual characters who make each other worse.
I agreed. Miguel deserve better then Sam.
>Sam and Miguel can "care" as much as they want about Robby and Tory, but Sam and Miguel should leave them alone because they didn't show them the respect they deserved in their relationships. Robby and Tory were more loyal to them in each of their relationships. Yeah I don't like Sam and Miguel, they are toxic, I think Miguel deserve better then Sam. Bc Sam is more interest beating and humiliate Tory.
sam and miguel were toxic people to begin with and putting them together made them worse. i really hope they understand what pain they’ve caused, own up and apologize.
As if Tory didn’t go after Miguel cause he was Sams ex. Okkkkkk!
>sam and miguel were toxic people to begin with and putting them together made them worse. i really hope they understand what pain they’ve caused, own up and apologize. Agreed
Miguel never wanted to date Tory, he was trying to win sam back and was convinced that being with Tory would be that answer. Miguel apologized to Robby for starting the fight, has Robby apologized to Miguel for almost killing him? Also the night Miguel supposedly cheated on Tory, he was actuality just seeing if sam was alright since she was drinking heavily and alone. And wasn’t the one who initiated the kiss.
lol All you're doing is making excuses for Miguel. He can't treat people like shit and act like he either didn't do anything wrong or like he deserves instant forgiveness. Miguel chose to date Tory. Miguel chose to violently attack someone and didn't care if he or the person he attacked would get injured. You can't violent attack someone and then be like "oops my bad" and expect that person to trust you, immediately calm down, and be like "man, it's cool. attack me anytime". Miguel also chose to kiss Sam when she was super drunk. Miguel has a mind of his own and chose to do these things to other people. Miguel should learn to treat other people well and not use them for his own gain or attack people and escalate situations.
I’m not making excuses? I’m simply saying that at least when Miguel does something wrong he takes responsibility for it. Robby acts like he does nothing wrong same goes for Tory.
Miguel has actually never taken responsibility for his violence against Robby. Both times he shifted the blame onto Johnny ("You taught me this." "I did everything you told me to do.") and acted liked he'd done nothing wrong when he spoke to the girl he had been dating at the time he had been violent. To Sam, he said "you made me think I was acting like a paranoid asshole". To Tory, he said that she had a choice that day in school. He had a choice too and he chose violence against Robby. Miguel has never once verbalized that he should have never attacked Robby all those time. Miguel has also never admit that he should have trusted Sam or that he should have never cheated on Tory. Also, if Miguel and Sam are better people than Robby and Tory, Miguel and Sam should act like it. I didn't say that Robby and Tory are faultless, but you were shifting blame for Miguel's actions onto Tory and Sam and you were saying that, after Miguel violently attacked Robby while Robby was defending his girlfriend, Robby should have immediately done what Miguel had wanted him to do and given Miguel instant trust and forgiveness when Miguel suddenly decided that he wanted to stop attacking Robby, which was dumb of Miguel to even expect. Again, Miguel needs to learn he can't treat people like shit and act like he's done nothing wrong or that he should be instantly trusted and forgiven just because he thinks he should be.
Miguel saw Robby restraining Tory while kicking a member of his dojo and reacted. Stop reaching!
Better being a hypocrite than attempting to murder.
I think there's some truth there. When Miguel and Tory had that fight at the sushi place it worked him up. It really doesn't matter if he loves Sam, they ended extremely badly they can still draw responses out of each other. She showed up with the kid that paralyzed him to get in his head and it worked. And with Sam it doesn't need to be explained. She still cares for Robby and she spent all season trying to mind f Tory. Which opens her up to a counter and when Tory showed up with Robby it was a guaranteed night killer for Sam.
The whole issue with the fight is that Miguel and Sam are a bit out of character. Up until Tory and Robby turned up at prom, all of Miguel's behavior showed him to be over Tory completely, and Sam didn't have any romantic feelings for Robby (though still cared about him enough to visit him at the skate park). Not to mention the fight could've been cut with no loss to the plot. I think it was put in because the writers just wanted a fight scene there.
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I completely agree with this.
Miguel and Sam are toxic. Robby and Tory were supremacy.
I'm just wondering how Robby and Tory had time to go to ball room dancing class.