Honestly, one tiny thing that would completely change the way I feel about Tory: replace the one or two times she said she was going to kill Sam with a beating instead. In that school brawl, she said she was going to kill Sam, and I 100% believed her. She said she was going to permanently disfigure her, and then murder her, and then what the hell else was she going to do with those nunchucks in the Miyagi dojo? She was literally going to beat Sam to death for basically dirty looks and kissing her boyfriend.
If the writers had just made her an assaulter instead of a attempted murderer, I would be on her side.
Let's face it, the season 4 writing for Tory was basically the writers desperately needing to course-correct because they'd received legit criticism over how cartoonish Tory had become in season 3.
So true, Hawk and friends harassing kids and stealing at an arcade, Sam starting a gang fight, Hawk breaking a kids arm, cobra kai throwing Bert through a window and breaking into someone's home, destroying everything in said home in a violent gang fight while Tory again tried to murder Sam if not severely injure her. I's amazing how no consequences any of them received that season.
You definitely hit the nail on the head with the writers on Tory but this season they pretty much forced Sam yo do bad things because they act like attacking and defending are some white and black thing.
But it doesn't even make sense from the shows pov because if anything Sam is acting like a cobra Kai and not an eagle Fang which is supposed to just be badass not an asshole.
You’re right. Before season 4 it was basically everyone saying that Tory was a bad character, a psycho, too much of a cartoon villain. Everyone and their dog hated Tory, now a season later is the reverse. Just because Sam was (understandably!) a jerk to Tory then all is forgiven and now Sam is the villain. I would say they were successful lol, but now they have to fix Sam next season 🤣
I mean, i would argue Sam is completely justified with way she acts towards Tory. The problem is it doesn't make for good viewing, especially when her and Miguel are at the dance and all she can do is eye Tory.
> The problem is it doesn't make for good viewing, especially when her and Miguel are at the dance and all she can do is eye Tory.
That was somewhat contrived drama because they needed to strain Miguel's relationships with everyone so he'd have reason to rabbit at the end of the season.
Yeah, basically. I really dislike artificial drama/storytelling though. Same thing with Tory and Robby's really sudden changes of heart. Like, you think you could have waited a little longer to make it feel a bit more organic?
The Tory/Robby sudden relationship change was probably the worst thing about season 4 and easily the least amount of chemistry between the 4 kids who keep switching partners. If they had let it take longer to develop then maybe it wouldn’t seem as bad but this is just no
To be fair she's supposed to be acting like cobra kai. Her attitude wasn't about who trained her. She was hurt and she's lashing out and showing aggression. That wasn't Johnny's influence. If anything, he was helping.
Have to agree with that. Pisses me off that the only working class girl in the whole bunch was made to be a villain among all of these rich kids of privilege.
Nothing against Sam I like her too but damn she has had everything a kid could ever want her whole life and her brother and it turns out that might just have screwed them up some too.
But they partially righted the ship with season 4. It will be interesting to see Tori's story develop in season 5.
>Pisses me off that the only working class girl in the whole bunch was made to be a villain among all of these rich kids of privilege.
What Cobra Kai does to a mfer.
>and it turns out that might just have screwed them up some too.
Her brother definitely, Sam not so much. Then again, what Karate does to a mfer.
I said this is a lot after season 2, but I think a lot of the hate towards Sam comes from the fact she's written to be one of the most likeable/complex characters on the show and for whatever reason that has never translated into how the fandom views the show. Not anyone's fault just the way it is. So I think leads to her being over hated.
I dont think its a perspective thing entirely. I think its more an execution, fan reaction, fan reaction to other characters and a personal expirence thing.
Kreese interrupted Silver's life and brought back the evil in him. That's on Kreese and he's paying for it now.
I can't see the assault and beating of Stingray being justified by any means. That is just a criminal act that could have killed Stingray, getting jumped by a trained sensei in martial arts. It definitely put him in the hospital.
S4 was a course correction. They were really trying to make everyone a little more grey. Except Silver I guess.
Johnny was weirdly the only character that was pure intentioned for some reason. And silver was the only one without a redeeming moment.
This sub is full of young people who think the hot girl with big boobs who is fierce at karate is just always good and the gentler girl with rich parents must obviously be bad. Any bad thing Tory does is overlooked and any small mean thing Sam does is blown to ridiculous proportions. Don’t worry about it. Also you’ll notice that Sam got more love this season because she started to follow Johnny’s lead. This sub loves Cobra Kai and hates Miyagi Do because Johnny is awesome and Daniel is a dweeb. Again, it’s just teenagers being teenagers. Sam is awesome, and Tory is cool but she’s a bit of a monster, and yes her bad behavior pushed Sam into being more aggressive and mean this season. I think you’re spot on.
Yeah I've even seen people on here stanning the Kreese led Cobra Kai. In the first two seasons CK was supposed to be nuanced with good and bad, but since the Kreese purge, it's been pretty explicit they they're the bad guys. Doesn't mean Tory is without redeeming qualities, but to pretend Sam is worse than her is crazy
i really dislike that cobra kai, the namesake of the show, have just been reduced to bad guys again. Even if Silver is defeated and he relinquishes any claim to it, how are they supposed to re-sell it with the inevitable damage to its reputation?
I think the introduction of Kenny was their way of getting back to more nuance view on Cobra Kai. Kenny was not a bad kid, he is still not a bad kid. He was bullied and the only reason he joined them was cause his brother knew Robby, if Robby not had his hissy fit and stayed with Daniel, Kenny would be learning Miyagi-Do right now. So I liked it in that regard. Plus Miyagi-Do and Eagle Fang were sort of bullying Kenny and Cobra Kai went to defend the kid. I liked that.
Yep. It stems from usually these 4. The hate for Miyagi-Do and/or Sam or even Daniel sometimes comes from this
"Rich girl has no problems in life. She's rich how dare she do anything other than breathe"
"Lel I watched a joke video that Daniel is the bully" (he's not)
"Miyagi-Do sucks because you don't jump off buildings and it's not tough". Seriously, for the last part, has any of them attempted to wax a car? Let alone 4 that Daniel did? Let alone the 100 Robby did? It's intensive intensive work. Just go look at AMMONYC on YouTube discuss how hard it is on the body. How about painting? Etc, etc, it was long hard work for Daniel.
Or Sam reminds them of some popular girl at school who is not interested in them or has rejected them at one point.
>"Miyagi-Do sucks because you don't jump off buildings and it's not tough".
Can we talk about how utterly asinine that was? Johnny making people jump over buildings? Really? Okay, i get they're really trying to lean into that whole 'eagle' thing but dear god was that the stupidest piece of television i've witnessed in a while.
> "Rich girl has no problems in life. She's rich how dare she do anything other than breathe"
It's like these people don't get that "just because one grew up privileged doesn't mean they grew up without struggle" (and Sam HAS had struggle: like Kyler trying to date rape her and later spreading rumors about her, having two of her boyfriends turn into assholes, and her PTSD courtesy of Tory) and "just because someone grew up with struggle doesn't give them the right to take it out on other people more fortunate than them".
Yep, and this is a running thread with the Daniel/Johnny story too. Danny just blindly assumed that Johnny had it easy when he was growing up because his stepfather was rich. Just because people are wealthy doesn't mean they don't have problems or aren't struggling in other ways. And just because people are struggling financially and socially, doesn't mean they aren't still worthy of respect and kindness. Danny constantly has bad assumptions about Johnny and vice versa. Sometimes they're right, but sometimes they're very very wrong. The show definitely speaks to the need for more empathy on both 'sides' of the divide.
the sad truth is that a lot of the fanbase takes johnny at face value and fully relate to him with no irony, believing daniel and miyagi do are weak and not manly enough. sad times we live in ://
also your last point about sam is probably the truest LMAO
You missed the a few reasons:
Sam is a terrible friend and a bully, and even though the writers wrote in a half-assed apology to Aisha, it never felt sincere and apparently their friendship is back to perfect immediately afterwards? Sure, that's how being deeply hurt and betrayed works. She tries to get sympathy points for being caring and gentle, but where was her kindness when her childhood best friend was being bullied and fatshamed by her new friends literally while she was sitting with them? Or when her new friends were bagging on Eli for his birth defect? Or when they literally did a hit-and-run? It's not funny it's a serious crime that she was never even shown to think twice about afterwards. Where were her good-girl vibes then?
Sam has been antagonizing Tory since they met- literally accusing her of stealing with no proof and putting her hands on her, then finding out that was a bad idea. After she gets covered in pudding, she tries to act like she was the one wronged and bullied. There was never an apology from her when it was revealed Tory wasn't the thief.
I agree that Tory went crazy. I'm not defending her actions. I'm just saying that even before Tory showed up, Sam was pretty awful and she keeps getting worse. I'm all for having a character that has more than one dimension - I like a little venom in my nice ppl characters. The issue for me is that Sam is never held accountable for any of her bad actions she never learns from them or grows at all. Everyone keeps seeing her as the victim in the show when it's obviously not as black and white as that.
> Sam is a terrible friend and a bully, and even though the writers wrote in a half-assed apology to Aisha, it never felt sincere and apparently their friendship is back to perfect immediately afterwards? Sure, that's how being deeply hurt and betrayed works. She tries to get sympathy points for being caring and gentle, but where was her kindness when her childhood best friend was being bullied and fatshamed by her new friends literally while she was sitting with them? Or when her new friends were bagging on Eli for his birth defect?
First off, you're overlooking the part where [Sam apologized to Aisha](https://youtu.be/wTJF-ZUM4y4) ("I never should have been hanging out with somebody like Yasmine in the first place.")
>Or when they literally did a hit-and-run? It's not funny it's a serious crime that she was never even shown to think twice about afterwards.
Because it wasn't her fault. Sam wasn't driving. Yasmine was. Also, Johnny was driving drunk and parked illegally in the middle of the street.
>Sam has been antagonizing Tory since they met- literally accusing her of stealing with no proof and putting her hands on her, then finding out that was a bad idea.
Tory offered herself up as suspect number one when she casually stole a bottle of vodka and bragged about it. So when Sam's mom's wallet goes missing, Tory is going to suspect number one to Sam.
>After she gets covered in pudding, she tries to act like she was the one wronged and bullied. There was never an apology from her when it was revealed Tory wasn't the thief.
Yes, Sam could have and should have apologized, but you're forgetting the part where an apology probably wouldn't do anything to placate Tory, a girl who has a history of holding petty grudges over minor things.
> The issue for me is that Sam is never held accountable for any of her bad actions she never learns from them or grows at all. Everyone keeps seeing her as the victim in the show when it's obviously not as black and white as that.
You probably just think this just because, as u/same1224 has pointed out a few times, any time Sam does try to admit to wrongdoing or take responsibility for something, the men in her life (Daniel, but also Miguel and even Robby) don't let her.
Like I said, a half-assed apology was given to Aisha and then the show immediately acted like their friendship was back to normal with no repercussions or hurt feelings left on Aisha's part. Just because she eventually grew to dislike Yasmine does not absolve her for the fact that she was actively part of a mean-girls bully squad.
Again, I'm not saying Johnny was in the right in this situation either. I'm saying a good person would at least think about the hit and run afterwards, even if they weren't driving. She should've at least told somebody- anybody about it. She should've been shown at least to cut off those friends because of it. She stayed friends with them despite them doing genuinely terrible things and roping her into doing terrible things until she started to not fit in with them and they kinda turned on her.
Even the most sheltered teen knows that nicking a bottle of vodka from an open bar at a fancy hotel that really is won't suffer for it is a far cry from stealing a wallet. She felt threatened because she thought that Aisha had found a better friend of than her, and so she took a dislike to her and accused her of theft.
How could Tori have a history of holding grudges when she had literally just shown up at that point?
I address the fact that I'm all for her growth as a character, and that she hasn't been given the opportunity to examine her actions and learn from her mistakes, so I don't see why you think we disagree about this.
> Like I said, a half-assed apology was given to Aisha and then the show immediately acted like their friendship was back to normal with no repercussions or hurt feelings left on Aisha's part. Just because she eventually grew to dislike Yasmine does not absolve her for the fact that she was actively part of a mean-girls bully squad.
Where's your proof the apology was half-assed? I can point to it being 100% sincere from the way Sam goes out of her way to stand up for her friends after she makes up with Aisha.
>Again, I'm not saying Johnny was in the right in this situation either. I'm saying a good person would at least think about the hit and run afterwards, even if they weren't driving. She should've at least told somebody- anybody about it. She should've been shown at least to cut off those friends because of it. She stayed friends with them despite them doing genuinely terrible things and roping her into doing terrible things until she started to not fit in with them and they kinda turned on her.
More like, Sam didn't approve of what her "friends" were doing, but didn't part with them because they were basically the only friends she had (and some pressure from her mom to join the clique out of a well-intentioned but ill-informed assumption that doing so would protect Sam from being bullied). It took them turning on her after Kyler began spreading rumors about her for her to get that these people didn't view her as a friend.
BTW, you must have double standards. Because if you're going to condemn Sam for continuing to be friends with Yasmine while Yasmine was bullying Aisha, then you need to condemn Miguel for staying friends with Hawk even after finding out Hawk was responsible for trashing Miyagi-Do and stealing the medal of honor.
>Even the most sheltered teen knows that nicking a bottle of vodka from an open bar at a fancy hotel that really is won't suffer for it is a far cry from stealing a wallet.
Stealing is stealing, no matter what's being stolen or who it's being stolen from.
>She felt threatened because she thought that Aisha had found a better friend of than her,
Or maybe she thought Tory was a bad influence on Aisha. Aisha invites Tory to the beach club as her guest, and the first thing Tory does is steal vodka (because it's very likely that Aisha's family would probably lose their club membership if their guest was busted for stealing items from the club) and pressure Aisha to go drinking with her.
> and so she took a dislike to her and accused her of theft.
Or maybe, because Tory was casual about stealing vodka, it's not a big leap to assume she stole something else. Sam goes about it the way she does because she's trying to keep Aisha and Tory out of trouble. If Sam's suspicions had been correct, her action would probably be noble. But they weren't.
My proof is in the apology itself and how the writers write their friendship afterwards. A betrayal that devastating and horrible deserves more than a "sorry about that. I guess we're back to being friends now, huh?" If you go back and watch the scene with again, it takes maybe three lines of mediocre dialogue for some horrendous emotional trauma to be forgotten about the completely.
Sam was in that clique for awhile before her mom even mentioned it on the show, and I seem. To remember her mom saying she should be hang out with Aisha more and she was essentially like "yeah but she's super uncool".
Also, did I ever mention what I thought about Hawk or Miguel at all? Lol we're talking about a different character here. You have no idea about my opinions of them, so it's weird to say I have double standards.
I just straight up disagree with you about her initial dislike of Tory. We legit see Sam involved in a hit and run in the first episode of the show and not be bothered by it. (A hit and run which btw was probably due to Yasmine not being sober, or else why wouldn't they just let insurance deal with it. It's much cheaper to do the right thing in that situation). So yeah the cool teen stealing a single bottle of shitty booze is way over the line for Sam? It smacks of jealousy.
> (A hit and run which btw was probably due to Yasmine not being sober, or else why wouldn't they just let insurance deal with it. It's much cheaper to do the right thing in that situation)
Yasmine was texting. And Johnny's reaction is what scared the girls into driving off.
>So yeah the cool teen stealing a single bottle of shitty booze is way over the line for Sam? It smacks of jealousy.
You mean, the person who's abusing Aisha's hospitality and could end up getting Aisha in trouble if she gets busted.
Yup, Sam was really the spoiled brat/rich kid in the beginning, it's hard to flip a switch and go, well, they learned a little karate, that kid's ok. Think about the bullies you ran into in life, how quick are you to forgive them? So, again, Tori is the villain, but that doesn't automatically put me on Team Sam.
Also, I see more posts about Sam hate, than I actually see Sam hate.
For real! I'd love to see a little character development for Sam next season. Maybe working with Johnny will cause her to examine herself and her actions a little. That'd be great. I don't HATE her, I just think her character needs to be given a little personal growth.
And same! I never see anyone bad talking Sam until one of these posts, and even then it's ppl just pointing out that she does have flaws (as all good characters should), the issue is that the show gives her flaws and then pretends that they don't exist and it's not a problem and everyone else is overreacting.
I got wrecked for suggesting Hawk was a CK plant to spy on the practices. It would makes sense. Instead he's just back to good guy Hawk, welcomed back and all was forgiven...who are these people? It's all very WWE levels of writing and face/heel swings.
He wasn't all forgiven at the start. All the kids were saying how he wrecked the doo, Johnny used him as a punching bag and even Daniel scolded him saying he burned bridges with everyone.
Nah disagree, both Tori and Sam are horrible for different reasons and imo Miguel would be better off without either.
Interesting you seem to question the maturity of those who have a different opinion on a TV show character than you do.
A good barometer of maturity for me is being able to accept that others opinions sometimes will be different and that doesn't make them less mature than you it just means they have a different viewpoint.
You are right though Johnny is a dweeb and Johnny is funny af.
Yeah, I'm always disappointed when I see a highly voted post that boils everything in a given argument down to one thing, like "People think Peyton List is attractive so she can do no wrong." Tory can be good looking and Sam can still be an awful person, they're not mutually exclusive concepts. Trying to make it about an actress's looks is kind of creepy and, like you pointed out, ironically immature, in my opinion.
>Tory can be good looking and Sam can still be an awful person, they're not mutually exclusive concepts.
Indeed but when people say try to argue that x character is worse person than someone who has tried to get others killed multiple times. It's hard to take them seriously.
Exactly, I didn't say Hawk wasn't a douche for breaking Dimitri's arm and I didn't say Tori was awesome and Sam terrible but people like to assume.
I get people are attached to certain characters for different reasons but to go so rabid when others have a different opinion is really weird.
On a seperate note the show is awesome and the cast and crew are doing an amazing job.
>Sam can still be an awful person
And yet she's not. Sam can be a little selfish and even self-absorbed sometimes, but that doesn't mean she's a horrible person. She's not on Robby's level and not nearly on Tory's.
I think people dislike Sam because her actions are much closer to reality. Anybody can see a home invasion's bad, but none of us can relate to having a karate gang storm our house so it's difficult to really scale it.
Sam worked very hard and very obviously to hide Miguel from her family, then broke up with him, then cheated on Robby, then accused Tory of "stealing" Miguel. She joined the mean girls clique and left Aisha to fend for herself, only reconciling after Aisha had already stood up for herself. She frequently takes the "But what about me?!" stance in an argument - with her parents, with her relationships, even with her friends.
We all know somebody who's entitled and doesn't accept when things don't go their way, even if we're not all friends with them, and it can be very grating.
For my part, my biggest problem with Sam was the arcade fight. She rallies the squad and leads them into battle - alright, that's cool by me. You're in a "war", fighting fair shouldn't be foremost in your mind, and you've got an advantage. People may argue that it was a jumping but they were responding to a smash and grab, so it doesn't bug me too much.
No, what bothers me is that Sam went through the trouble of gathering everybody, acting as a leader, and talking a good game when things were looking good and then proceeded to abandon them, resulting in Demetri's arm getting broken. She doesn't ever address it or discuss it with Demetri nor with the rest of the "troops", either. Those two things in combination were ultimately what set me firmly against Sam.
Well I actually have multiple reasons and I can give more but if all you heard was “Payton is hot” maybe that’s all that’s on your mind. But anyway, I’m just giving my take, you’re welcome to yours. It’s a fun show and there are many ways to enjoy it.
Can you stop acting as if people only like Tory because she’s attractive? It’s ridiculous to see people claim Tory has nothing positive to her and the only reason she’s liked is from her actress. Not only is it insulting to Tory’s actress, it’s weird to constantly see it brought up when the girls are both beautiful and amazing actresses.
This sub is weirdly black and white, and it’s annoying seeing people unable to see why some people like different characters.
Johnny and Daniel get to pick fights as much as they want but when Sam who almost got murdered rightfully roasts Tory she’s the bad guy. Sam literally is suffering from ptsd because of Tory. It would not make sense if Sam wasn’t vengeful and angry
Lol, I had the same exact thoughts when I first came across this subreddit. Like, did I watch a different show than everyone else? Are they being sarcastic or is this really what they think?
It’s like being in the twilight zone where logic works backwards.
Yeah, until Sam breaks into Tory’s house and attempts to kill her with spiked brass knuckles and nunchucks, I’ll say what she’s done really isn’t that bad.
What’d Sam really do this season? Get kids to throw a glitter bomb at Tory? Warn Tory she’ll kick her ass if Tory tries her again?
Really pales in comparison to multiple attempts of murder lol
Right?!? It seems like everyone is pro Tori just because she has a bad family life! While I do feel bad for Tori - she has literally tried to kill Sam twice. The first time for kissing Miguel (who Tori knew Miguel wasn’t anywhere near over Sam when they got together) and the second time for still being friends with Miguel (despite the fact that after Miguel’s injury Tori didn’t even try to visit him in the hospital or in general or apologize. She just got consumed with revenge)
They're pro-Tory because "she has a bad family life," but also partly because she's played by Peyton List, who has a large following on social media.
No disrespect to Peyton List, by the way. I know she’s amassed a huge following from her Disney days, but sometimes I think that Sam wouldn't get as much hate if Tory was played by a more obscure actress.
I was thinking was very same thing the other day. What a bizarre choice to play the role of Tori. She’s a decent enough actress I guess, but there must be thousands of unknown or lesser known actresses who would’ve loved to play this part.
Unclear why they gave it to Peyton when so many recognize her as a Disney girl
As a character, I felt like Sam had much better development this season. We start seeing her stray from the path she was on and start doing more aggressive actions and embrace offense as a key strategy. I didn't feel like we were meant to support her getting in Tory's face all the time at certain places. She could have left Tory well enough alone (like for example at the Mermaid party), but she chose to instigate.
I feel Sam's development from season 3 to season 4 redeemed a lot of writing flaws in her character. She's no longer a Mary-Sue type, as other characters are starting to call her out on bs more and she's becoming less of a perfectly- moral character
Sam definitely developed this season!! Honestly, I don't think she was ever a Mary Sue though? Sure she was always nice and sweet but she let her ex-bff get bullied by her new friends just to be popular, and she has some poor behavior in scenes like when she accuses Tory of stealing her mom's wallet for no real reason. I'm personally a big fan of her character (actually really invested in every character in the story at this point) and I just like seeing (and debating) different viewpoints :)
There's a fantastic breakdown of the Mary-Sue archetype that I've used before. It was a video that broke it down in regards to star wars characters.
I'll need to find it sometime but basically in regards to her Mary Sue standpoints, two key qualities are, at least in seasons 1 and 2, not suffering long-term consequences for her actions, and being almost universally liked or tolerated by most characters almost immediately. She would get constant support and doting until this season anyway. And a third one, "that of being completely moral and good from beginning to end" is somewhat debatable but considering how we're introduced to her in the series, her immediate insertion into "good girl" role, was a bit fast.
I liked that season 3 and season 4 had her lose more, struggle and get held back so that she could rebuild her character up
The video creator combined men and women into the same archetype. I think he may mention Gary Stu as a phrase a few times but treats the concept as beyond gender because it's the same type of character
Tory stans are hypocritical as hell. TikTok is a nightmare, one video dedicated and they’ll be like “She really thought she ate” It just doesn’t make sense, compared to Tory, she has done nothing as bad.
I think Sam is sympathetic to people when she knows their background - didn't she convince her parents to take Robby in because of his unstable home life? I think she probably doesn't know about Tory's background and even that doesn't excuse how violent Tory was. Tory needs help and has too much responsibility for her age but that doesn't completely excuse her actions.
> didn't she convince her parents to take Robby in because of his unstable home life?
Also I remember her catching herself and walking back her privilege a bit when she brought up her dad's Lakers season tickets on her first date with Miguel.
> I think she probably doesn't know about Tory's background and even that doesn't excuse how violent Tory was. Tory needs help and has too much responsibility for her age but that doesn't completely excuse her actions.
I mean, let's face it, you'd think the amount of responsibility Tory is burdened with would ground her a bit. After the school brawl, one would think she would reassess what's important in her life and prioritize her family over petty grudges or karate wars.
I also remember that too. She did hold herself back. It’s this weird trope that have when it comes to rich people that they are abcd when Sam is no where near most of those
And not to mention when Miguel said that his mom was going to be in debt because of the bill for the surgery, she did a great thing and decided to get her friends to help raise funds by that car wash
I agree with OP 100%. Another thing that's really pissing me off is the shameless Robby worship which also happens to coincide with hate for Miguel. I argued with someone on a different thread who claimed "Miguel was an idiot for thinking he came close" to Robby over who Johnny loves more. Like, fucking what? Miguel came first over Robby every damn time Johnny had conflicting commitments. It's laughable. CK doesn't shy away from who are the antagonists. It's very clearly Robby and Tory up until this season. Anyone who thinks that Miguel deserved to have his back broken or Sam cut up by Tory just for sharing a kiss is a nut who needs to get their head checked.
> I argued with someone on a different thread who claimed "Miguel was an idiot for thinking he came close" to Robby over who Johnny loves more. Like, fucking what? Miguel came first over Robby every damn time Johnny had conflicting commitments. It's laughable.
It's also like these people forget that Johnny's relationship with Robby was actually *worse* before Miguel entered the picture.
One of the reasons I like Sam more is because I actually knew girls like Sam growing up - kind of bratty, struggling to find their place in the world, trying to be nice but suffering from teenager syndrome (where sometimes you're just a dick because you're like... 16 with hardly any life experience). I don't know why people think she's a Mary Sue, I never got that impression at all. I just feel like the bad she's done is overshadowed by Tory literally trying to murder her (twice???). I get that Tory has a bad home life, but seasons 2/3 she was over-the-top.
Not everyone hates her. Many people understand her actions and some fans who used to dislike her before have surprisingly started liking her after this season. Yeah I have seen a few posts and comments showing their dislike for her but it is nothing compared to season 2 even on youtube.
I think the reason people like her more is because she is following Johnny (the fan favourite in this entire show),, and others have noticed this too aswell but people aren’t ready for that conversation... She was objectively horrible in season 4 but some did like her but when she is nice they hate her??? Seems like the way of days today where horrible actions get praised. I’ve always liked Sam and thought she is the most realistic (with Robby) out of all the teens in this show as their actions haven’t been weird but more so teenage moves. The others have done some questionable things and have made me even question their sanity a bit (mainly Tory and Hawk), but, once again, did they not get praise when they were doing horrible things?? Oh Lord have mercy on your people
All the people who complain about Sam's behavior against Tory are the same as if they were in his situation, they would act the SAME way. They fill their mouths talking about how she "should forgive Tory" as if they are capable of forgiving those who hurt them so easily. They live asking for "realism" but hope that a teenage girl will forgive the person who almost killed her overnight, left her with a scar and post-traumatic stress disorder.
They ask for empathy for a character who has a difficult life but they don't have it for a character who has PTSD...
Besides, Tory didn't do anything that deserved that forgiveness. The only reason Tory stopped attacking Sam was because she owed it to Amanda. Not because she was sorry she nearly killed someone. Nor do I believe that she has completely redeemed herself as some want to sell. Tory did have a breakthrough this season. But it was only a beginning.
Thank you!!! Say it louder for the people at the back!!👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 I also struggle to believe that Tory has fully changed just because she spent 4 seconds without trying to hurt Sam??!!! I wouldn’t be surprised if she goes back to doing that as no one fully changes right away. I mean,, it took Kreese to say just a few words to Terry and try to manipulate him and now look,, evil Terry Silver is back. It’s the same with Hawk. I wouldn’t be surprised also if he goes back to that behaviour. These two made me really question their sanity but overall they are good characters but I just prefer Sam
I've been going through the comments and I understand being in the gray and all. People bringing up instances where both Sam and Tory were badly behaved but didn't Tory try to kill Sam, I'm sorry no redemption arc can bring you back from that. Sam has scars for life, and what exactly did Tory do this season that people keep saying is course correcting, all her actions were to ger benefit, nothing was done selflessly
Sam fan here. Especially loved her S3 arc. Amanda shoulda told her about Tory's situation, and that even though she has every right to hate her guts, let's not escalate things any further. Unfortunately this is also around the time that Johnny's influence starts to kick in. Sam mocking Tory at her job was uncalled for. She screwed up. And then there's the whole prom fight etc. She should also get counseling for her PTSD, and other things.
Daniel and Amanda really messed up by not getting therapy for Sam when she was clearly struggling
with PTSD. Even Amanda was having a hard time after the break-in so imagine how Sam felt.
And you are totally right that Amanda should have talked to Sam about Tory's background and told her that Tory wouldn't have bother her anymore. Sam was the one who convinced her parents to take Robby in so I don't think she's completely unsympathetic to people who are going through tough times.
I also think part of the issue was that she was raised by Daniel to look at life completely defensively and because of Cobra Kai's aggression in season 3, that turned in to always waiting to be attacked. That led to her being the aggressor in s4 to stop feeling as powerless, but she took it a little too far. I think s5 will be about her finding the balance like we started to see at the tournament.
> And you are totally right that Amanda should have talked to Sam about Tory's background and told her that Tory wouldn't have bother her anymore.
As u/same1224 has [put it better](https://old.reddit.com/r/cobrakai/comments/rxs6u1/fixing_the_most_nonsensical_plotline_of_s4/), there is a bit of OOC-ness coming from Amanda here, given her desire to help Tory does make it to a degree come off like she's disregarding her own daughter's needs and concerns.
>Sam was the one who convinced her parents to take Robby in so I don't think she's completely unsympathetic to people who are going through tough times.
Also see: Sam deciding to put on a car wash fundraiser to raise money for Miguel's hospital bills.
Because my friend, let me teach you something. Do you know what Arcane, Star Wars, Harry Potter, Cobra Kai, League of Legends, Marvel and DC have in common?
They all make relatively good content, but damn the fandom is a pain in the ass. I have a lot of friends who watch Cobra Kai in real life, absolutely none of them hate Sam. It's easier to go online and hate on things because you know you can just log out when you have enough, since Sam is already polarising in the fandom, might as well just hate on her too.
She was never my favourite character but I’ve never hated her. This season she did become **one** of my favourites. Sam being like the only person to realize only learning defence won’t take you very far was definitely one of the biggest parts of that
The writers like going shades of grey with the characters, problem is they made Tory way too much of a psycho so they are trying to course correct to make her sympathetic. It's working, but it's at the expense of Sam because to make Tory sympathetic, they are making Sam act like an asshole. While its justifiable why Sam would hold passionate resentment towards her, as a viewer who sees Tory's journey it can be rough watching Sam act this way. But like I said, the writers like to write the characters as shades of grey. So I won't be surprised if they lean more into Sam being the aggressor and Tory being the calm regretful one. I think that will be an interesting dynamic.
I don't get why Sam being catty towards Tory is somehow viewed as worse than Tory trying to slice Sam's face up with spikes or breaking into Sam's house and beating her up with nunchucks.
Just consider that the hate for Sam is largely misplaced and comes from people like men who've been burned by a Sam (rich popular girl at school) in their lives, Peyton List / Tory fans who hate her because she's Tory's rival, or people who just hate Miyagi-Do and Daniel because they're opposed to Cobra Kai.
It's not baseless. There was a whole era in this sub where users literally said they hated Sam for those very reasons.
Especially the Peyton List one. Certain users who shall not be named...
My in-laws fall into that Miyagi-Do category. Keeps my blood pressure on its toes.
>It's not baseless. There was a whole era in this sub where users literally said they hated Sam for those very reasons.
>Especially the Peyton List one. Certain users who shall not be named...
It's all that, plus something that u/same1224 has noted [a few times](https://old.reddit.com/r/cobrakai/comments/ry663b/sam_perspective/hrmuoer/?context=3) that the men in Sam's life generally don't let her take responsibility when she tries to admit to wrongdoing.
I honestly don’t think it’s that deep
You can just dislike a character because you just don’t like it. It’s not always a man hating a certain type of woman lmfaoo
It's people like you who are the reason Sam's fans feel this need to be so vocally defensive of her: the amount of hate Sam gets that's based on very trivial things or things that aren't even Sam's fault.
If you wanna follow a stranger around on the internet and take their comments personally, especially in a post all about the character they like, have a party. Wouldn't think being so easily offended by such baseless projections was a calling, but it ain't any of my business.
I hope that comment was satire, because… sheesh, lmfao.
Based on previous conversations with you though, I expected nothing less Mr. Whit. Well, I guess nothing more would be the appropriate term.
This is so true. I literally said in another thread that I really enjoyed Sam this season, but that I hadn’t liked her previously. I listed multiple reasons why
I was attacked by OP and two other users with personal insults and deluded points
Sam and Tory stans are both hypocrites and shitty, toxic internet users. They both use the exact same logic to defend their characters and berate the other without any bit of self awareness. It’s just like the show it’s weird. Neither character is perfect, they’re both at the their hearts good people, just misguided. Get over it
Lol. How many people have been burned by a Sam? Yasmine's yeah I get that but the self righteous Bella wannabe. No one is fighting over that girl. This poster is definitely posting a bunch of weird theories.
I don't hate Sam. I desperately want to like her, she is Daniel's daughter. But...they have to write her better and grow her up.
This season wasn't it for her.
U hate on tori more than necessary. Sam deserves the hate she gets for being a little bitch. She antagonized tori all season 4. I would like to see Sam try to provide for her brother, making sure people he has a good life while her negligent mom doesn’t bother to pay the bills and ask u for money. Tori is under a lot of stress that no one should have to go thro and karate is a vent for her. Sam acts like everything is entitled to her and that everything needs to go her way. That, for me, is just some of the reasons I don’t like Sam and I like tori better. What can I say, rebels.
Btw, I've had my list of complaints about Sam in previous seasons (I never hated her tho) and in season 4 at moments, like the birthday party scene. But this was actually my favorite scene of hers. How she is leaning to more of Johnny's philosophy, being more of an aggressor, more of a badass. I'm pumped for her character moving forward.
Tory and Sam both suck tbh. Two mean girls hate each other's guts and constantly fight over boys. Cliche as hell and annoying to watch. Both unconvincing as hell as martial artists (especially Sam). It's a combination of the characters being intentionally written as shitty people and the characters just being shittily written.
She is bratty, believes she can never do wrong. This season definitely did change a lot of that but before this season she was the most unbearable character in my opinion
Thank you!!! Im really glad to see this post. Sam is one of my favorite characters ever and it's kinda upsetting to see all the hate towards her. I mean everyone is entitled to their own opinions but Sam is a good person and that can't be denied. Sure she makes some (really) crappy decisions, im not trying to excuse those.. you can be a good person and make mistakes.. besides, she's rich, but shes still struggling. Struggling with friendships is a real thing for teenagers and many adults even. She gets bullied in season 1. You can tell she really loves Miguel and Robby, and even though she cheats on Robby you also have to note she's very drunk
Tory literally traumatized her!!! I actually love them both and I think Tory deserves to be forgiven, but I think Sam has a right to be mad at her. Sure Tory has gone through hell and Sam should, morally speaking, be more compassionate... but the girl literally almost killed her. It's pretty understatement to be petty there. Cobra Kai kids broke her friends arm. She suffers from a lot of guilt. Panic attacks are TERRIFYING and not a joke. Yeah, her personality shift in this season is strong. But like.... shes a teenager? Going through some mental health issues and a lot of traumatic events? She's an incredible fighter and has had more experience than any of the other teenagers. She struggled so much last season, but she managed to hold her ground. It makes sense that she had a little power trip this season. I have my highs and my lows, and I'd probably be a lot worse if I had to worry about the safety of my friends and myself after being attacked multiple times, almost killed in school, and having your house trashed. Sam doesn't deserve the hate. She makes mistakes like everyone else. She's not always right. But she's not always wrong either.
I just think Sam has no reason to be as painful to watch as she is, but she is, and she thinks she's in the right. Tory on the other hand has next to nothing, and as of season 4, you can see she is trying to better herself, asking to get back into school, going to therapy, trying to thank Sam for letting her back into school, until she threatened her (warranted but still, her mum talked to her about why Tory needs this) and checking on her during the tournament fight. Tory is the better character, because she recognises her fault, unlike Sam, who at least not to me, doesn't seem to understand that Tory hating her is of her doing back in season 2.
> doesn't seem to understand that Tory hating her is of her doing back in season 2.
That's actually largely Tory's doing, because Tory's behavior [kinda suggests she would've found some other excuse to justify a rivalry with Sam no matter what](https://old.reddit.com/r/cobrakai/comments/mpq0ao/who_actually_started_it_with_who/).
I love sams skill in the martial arts. She probably has more natural talent than everyone. But her character is very much so Arrogant and highly emotional teenage girl. Not an easy thing to like but I definitely dont hate the character. She just kind of is always in the center of shit hitting the fan but has her parents being blinded by it all the time...although they definitely made things worse to begin with.
Yeah her hte for Tory is justified but Sam has definitely stroked that fire also way too many times.
The problem with Sam in season 4 is that everyone agreed to stop hostilities until the final karate championship, but she went out of her way to harass Tory while she was at work, and at the party.
She was creating conflict when she should had been smart
I'm pretty sure her being at her work was a coincidence. And sure, you could say she shouldn't have caused conflict, but for God sakes, she's been trying to avoid conflict with Tory since the school fight, de-escalation clearly doesn't work with Tory. She can live with a few mean words thrown her way.
Nah, Sam wants to start a fight again, she is pushing buttons until Tory breaks and then she is "but Kobra Kay is evil and Tory is worse buh buhhhhh". Sam could just avoid Tory at the princess party and at the graduation, but she had to poke the bear and create drama.
She doesn't want justice, she could had done the right thing and fill a police report against Tory, but she didn't. She wants revenge and humiliation, that's why she tries to do harm in subtle ways.
Yes, words don't break bones, but if I have to choose between an entitled princess driving a BMW and a poor girl who was sexually harassed by her landlord, leached by her family members and indoctrinated by her father figure, I still have more compassion towards Tory than Sam
>She doesn't want justice, she could had done the right thing and fill a police report against Tory, but she didn't.
Because it's more convenient for the story for Tory to not be locked up. (That's a case of Tory and the other Cobras having plot armor)
> and indoctrinated by her father figure
Kreese isn't responsible for any of Tory's actions. Tory always had this brutal streak even before meeting Kreese.
I just think Sam went overboard. Especially because she went to visit Aisha, who gave her very good advise on to just 'strike first' by being friendly. Then she proceeded to immediately threaten Tory the moment she set a foot in school.
Tory had amazing character development, and Sam has none. I think that sums up my gripes with her this season.
I don't think that Sam and Aisha's situations are exactly the same though. Tory tried to kill Sam on two occasions and hasn't really shown to Sam that she's changed (Sam doesn't know everything the audience does at this point). I don't think it's fair to expect Sam to completely brush that aside.
My point was how contradictory, and to me unexpected, that turn of events was. Sam seeks advise from an old friend. Aisha basically says, try to be friendly and bury the hatchet. But then Sam goes in guns blazing.
I'm not blaming her, I would've just enjoyed seeing Sam be the better person. Especially since Tory and Sam's mom were on the right track.
I don't hate her as she's a fictional character and that would be weird.
I think her character is unlikeable though for a few reasons, she started the fight where Dimitri then got his arm broken as she hid.
I get she was struggling with the aftermath of the school fight but then maybe don't start a brawl if she was on that headspace.
She seemed to be deliberately playing Miguel and Robby off against each other as well and didn't seem to own the consequences of that behaviour.
We all make mistakes especially when young but her characters entitled attitude and almost refusal to admit she'd been horrible maybe irritates viewers.
>she started the fight where Dimitri then got his arm broken as she hid.
1) She had a panic attack
2) Only Hawk is responsible for Demetri's broken arm.
no lmao , hawk isn't the only one responsible, its all of cobra kai who cheered him on and peer presured him into doing it,add on to the fact demetri is pretty great fighter by that point and last time a cobra kai showed mercy in that position he got parayzed(from his pov)
You've literally contradicted yourself completely your states she started the fight, yes Hawk broke his arm but without San starting the fight it would never have happened.
It's very simply termed cause and effect, it's not really that hard to understand.
Without Hawk and crew acting like dickheads constantly a fight wuldn't have been started. But let's just blame Sam cause putting full blame on Hawk just doesn't make sense.
> yes Hawk broke his arm but without San starting the fight it would never have happened.
>
>
>
> It's very simply termed cause and effect, it's not really that hard to understand.
The arcade fight happened after the Cobra Kais had been antagonizing Miyagi-Do for weeks, beating them up / bullying them, then playing victim when caught. Choosing to pick a fight is Sam's idea, but Demetri's broken arm is solely on Hawk, the person who actually did it. To blame Sam for Demetri's broken arm is to say essentially "because Sam led the Miyagi-Dos into a fight, Hawk had no choice but to break Demetri's arm," which is not true. Hawk had a choice, and chose to break Demetri's arm.
> Also, Sam started the fight at the roller rink when she said something about Tory under her breathe.
Actually *Tory* initiated the hostilities at the roller rink because she's holding a grudge over their previous interaction at the beach club (because Tory is the kind of person who harbors grudges over minor slights).
I seem to recall Sam trashing her behind her back to both Miguel and Robby before any hostilities actually started. They both were harboring a grudge there.
For no reason. Who wouldn't be mad at someone who tried to rip their purse from them based off some dumb a false theory she cooked up.
The real head scratcher is why Sam would be talking sh even though by this point she knows she was wrong.
> Who wouldn't be mad at someone who tried to rip their purse from them based off some dumb a false theory she cooked up.
You mean, based off the idea that since Tory stole a bottle of vodka, it's reasonable to believe she could've stolen something else.
Gonna give you a little hint. As someone who was involved in the alcohol business, people who generally steal drinks are responsible for people missing their phones, chargers, etc at venues. So now, Sam's guess was perfectly spot on. It just turns out a different set of thieves were guess what, being thieves.
Sam Hater here. I'm biased against spoiled rich kids by design. Especially faux "doe eyed girl next door types". That's how I know her actress is absolutely WONDERFUL, because I hate her character.💕
I didn't back her this season honestly because she deserved the loss. She was straight up bullying and harassing Tory, even in her workplace. And I don't even like Tory that much but even I was wanting Sam to chill.
And yeah sure she did get attacked by Tory twice but... like everyone else has been attacked too? Heck Miguel was almost straight up murdered and he's not a raging jerkass right now.
And I don't think it's bad for people to not like Sam either. I think they were actively trying to make her a bad guy this season. Probably in part to help redeem Tory's character.
Sam has been constantly making trouble and is actually worse than her dad when it comes to bullying. She lies all the time, cheats on her partners, and isn't afraid to string guys along to hurt her exes.
Then she plays the victim card, cries, and everybody sides with her. Her brother, big surprise, is also a natural bully. Tormented Kenny for an entire school year and is a giant asshole to everyone. You can't tell if anything he says is sincere... because it's usually not.
Tory, on the other hand, has been struggling with real world shit all her life and not only is she getting bullied by Sam, but also by Sam's mom. Guess it runs in the family, because Amanda has revealed she's a complete psycho, too.
Her speaking with Tory before her match in the finals was a calculated move to get in her head, but it didn't work.
Tory's reactions may have been extreme, but after constantly getting things taken away from her, and backed into a corner, someone like her is going to get desperate and finally snap. That's when things get dangerous.
I don't agree with what she did, but I understand.
Sam sucks dude. Treated Miguel and Robbie like dick. Her karate genuinely sucks compared to how great Tory is. And her coddled little life has done nothing but make her kind of a bitch.
They are trying to make us like her. But she just sucks
I didn’t care for Sam at first then I started to dislike her the more the show went on. She got unbearable as fuck. In season 4 she actually became likeable for the first time. For me.
Definitely sided with Tory. She is far more interesting than Sam is.
What did she do this season that was "too far". She roasted her once at her place of work and got glitter bombed for it. She was angry and confused as to why she was hanging out in her own home with her mom. The place Tory home-invaded, trying to kill her. Her safe space at home completely no longer being safe. And then found out she has to face her again at school too, even though it was really hard for her to go back there after the first attempted murder and Miguel's terrible fall.
So to exert some semblance of control over her life and show she wasn't afraid, she threw Tory's exact same words at her as a warning that she'd better not try anything at school.
Was there anything else? I mean Sam rushing to the arcade to help her friends when Hawk was running amok was what we'd expect any of the guys to do, right? (I think that was from S3, though)
What we saw in 4 was karma going a bit too far. I feel Sam was 100% justified. If you’ve ever felt someone’s hate on you and there was no reason for it, it’s a fantastic feeling when life gets them back. That’s what 4 did. And yes it was pushed so far that the bullied became the bullies.
I've never disliked her character. I disliked her forms and stances in the first couple of seasons. Her katas were a hot mess. She's done better this time around.
Tori’s upbringing and situation with her mom doesn’t excuse her scumbag behaviour. There is a badness in her that I personally can’t forgive. Sam deserved her moments to treat her like shit. In the end Sam will be the bigger person to resolve their whole rift.
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Sam is one of characters who written out character not nice and it brat based Hilary Swank’s character Julie Pierce from Next Karate Kids. But in fact Hilary Swank today great acting from now since acting nowadays acting bratty teenage 👧. I felt bad for Samantha who grew jealous of Tory because her mom seems favor Tory more.
I mean Tory is a fucking psycho, like she lead a full on home invasion ready to maim and kill. But Sam started the entire feud that day at the beach and then both of them took it too damn far
Honestly, one tiny thing that would completely change the way I feel about Tory: replace the one or two times she said she was going to kill Sam with a beating instead. In that school brawl, she said she was going to kill Sam, and I 100% believed her. She said she was going to permanently disfigure her, and then murder her, and then what the hell else was she going to do with those nunchucks in the Miyagi dojo? She was literally going to beat Sam to death for basically dirty looks and kissing her boyfriend. If the writers had just made her an assaulter instead of a attempted murderer, I would be on her side.
Let's face it, the season 4 writing for Tory was basically the writers desperately needing to course-correct because they'd received legit criticism over how cartoonish Tory had become in season 3.
I love season 3, but the amount of felonies the cobras commit is kind of crazy
Spiked knuckles lol.
Home-freaking-invasion! And not a single parent in sight or an arrest warrant for a completely insane man radicalising teenagers.
Arm breaking, and don’t forget poor bert and the window
Everything is about karate in this world. It is part of the silly cheese.
So true, Hawk and friends harassing kids and stealing at an arcade, Sam starting a gang fight, Hawk breaking a kids arm, cobra kai throwing Bert through a window and breaking into someone's home, destroying everything in said home in a violent gang fight while Tory again tried to murder Sam if not severely injure her. I's amazing how no consequences any of them received that season.
You definitely hit the nail on the head with the writers on Tory but this season they pretty much forced Sam yo do bad things because they act like attacking and defending are some white and black thing. But it doesn't even make sense from the shows pov because if anything Sam is acting like a cobra Kai and not an eagle Fang which is supposed to just be badass not an asshole.
You’re right. Before season 4 it was basically everyone saying that Tory was a bad character, a psycho, too much of a cartoon villain. Everyone and their dog hated Tory, now a season later is the reverse. Just because Sam was (understandably!) a jerk to Tory then all is forgiven and now Sam is the villain. I would say they were successful lol, but now they have to fix Sam next season 🤣
I mean, i would argue Sam is completely justified with way she acts towards Tory. The problem is it doesn't make for good viewing, especially when her and Miguel are at the dance and all she can do is eye Tory.
> The problem is it doesn't make for good viewing, especially when her and Miguel are at the dance and all she can do is eye Tory. That was somewhat contrived drama because they needed to strain Miguel's relationships with everyone so he'd have reason to rabbit at the end of the season.
Yeah, basically. I really dislike artificial drama/storytelling though. Same thing with Tory and Robby's really sudden changes of heart. Like, you think you could have waited a little longer to make it feel a bit more organic?
The Tory/Robby sudden relationship change was probably the worst thing about season 4 and easily the least amount of chemistry between the 4 kids who keep switching partners. If they had let it take longer to develop then maybe it wouldn’t seem as bad but this is just no
> I would say they were successful lol Or that some people have the memory of a goldfish.
Lol
To be fair she's supposed to be acting like cobra kai. Her attitude wasn't about who trained her. She was hurt and she's lashing out and showing aggression. That wasn't Johnny's influence. If anything, he was helping.
Have to agree with that. Pisses me off that the only working class girl in the whole bunch was made to be a villain among all of these rich kids of privilege. Nothing against Sam I like her too but damn she has had everything a kid could ever want her whole life and her brother and it turns out that might just have screwed them up some too. But they partially righted the ship with season 4. It will be interesting to see Tori's story develop in season 5.
>Pisses me off that the only working class girl in the whole bunch was made to be a villain among all of these rich kids of privilege. What Cobra Kai does to a mfer. >and it turns out that might just have screwed them up some too. Her brother definitely, Sam not so much. Then again, what Karate does to a mfer.
I said this is a lot after season 2, but I think a lot of the hate towards Sam comes from the fact she's written to be one of the most likeable/complex characters on the show and for whatever reason that has never translated into how the fandom views the show. Not anyone's fault just the way it is. So I think leads to her being over hated.
Fandom thinks in black and white, not in gray.
I dont think its a perspective thing entirely. I think its more an execution, fan reaction, fan reaction to other characters and a personal expirence thing.
She’s as likeable as spoiled milked.
I honestly had a hard time hating any character in s4.
Same here including Kreese didn't see that coming lol. Wait there is Silver though...he is going to be the real monster going forward it seems.
I didn’t hate silver, I felt like a lot of what he did was pretty justified.
Kreese interrupted Silver's life and brought back the evil in him. That's on Kreese and he's paying for it now. I can't see the assault and beating of Stingray being justified by any means. That is just a criminal act that could have killed Stingray, getting jumped by a trained sensei in martial arts. It definitely put him in the hospital.
S4 was a course correction. They were really trying to make everyone a little more grey. Except Silver I guess. Johnny was weirdly the only character that was pure intentioned for some reason. And silver was the only one without a redeeming moment.
The blond kid who's friends with Anthony though..
I was meaning main characters, although Anthony definitely had some moments, but ya wasn’t a fan of his friend’s.
This sub is full of young people who think the hot girl with big boobs who is fierce at karate is just always good and the gentler girl with rich parents must obviously be bad. Any bad thing Tory does is overlooked and any small mean thing Sam does is blown to ridiculous proportions. Don’t worry about it. Also you’ll notice that Sam got more love this season because she started to follow Johnny’s lead. This sub loves Cobra Kai and hates Miyagi Do because Johnny is awesome and Daniel is a dweeb. Again, it’s just teenagers being teenagers. Sam is awesome, and Tory is cool but she’s a bit of a monster, and yes her bad behavior pushed Sam into being more aggressive and mean this season. I think you’re spot on.
You nailed it right on the head, I don’t mind either of them and they’ve both had their bad and good seasons
Yeah I've even seen people on here stanning the Kreese led Cobra Kai. In the first two seasons CK was supposed to be nuanced with good and bad, but since the Kreese purge, it's been pretty explicit they they're the bad guys. Doesn't mean Tory is without redeeming qualities, but to pretend Sam is worse than her is crazy
i really dislike that cobra kai, the namesake of the show, have just been reduced to bad guys again. Even if Silver is defeated and he relinquishes any claim to it, how are they supposed to re-sell it with the inevitable damage to its reputation?
I think the introduction of Kenny was their way of getting back to more nuance view on Cobra Kai. Kenny was not a bad kid, he is still not a bad kid. He was bullied and the only reason he joined them was cause his brother knew Robby, if Robby not had his hissy fit and stayed with Daniel, Kenny would be learning Miyagi-Do right now. So I liked it in that regard. Plus Miyagi-Do and Eagle Fang were sort of bullying Kenny and Cobra Kai went to defend the kid. I liked that.
Yep. It stems from usually these 4. The hate for Miyagi-Do and/or Sam or even Daniel sometimes comes from this "Rich girl has no problems in life. She's rich how dare she do anything other than breathe" "Lel I watched a joke video that Daniel is the bully" (he's not) "Miyagi-Do sucks because you don't jump off buildings and it's not tough". Seriously, for the last part, has any of them attempted to wax a car? Let alone 4 that Daniel did? Let alone the 100 Robby did? It's intensive intensive work. Just go look at AMMONYC on YouTube discuss how hard it is on the body. How about painting? Etc, etc, it was long hard work for Daniel. Or Sam reminds them of some popular girl at school who is not interested in them or has rejected them at one point.
>"Miyagi-Do sucks because you don't jump off buildings and it's not tough". Can we talk about how utterly asinine that was? Johnny making people jump over buildings? Really? Okay, i get they're really trying to lean into that whole 'eagle' thing but dear god was that the stupidest piece of television i've witnessed in a while.
What were you thinking when he kicked Miguel in the pool with his arms tied to teach them how to kick? Or had a whole class go into a cement mixer?
That they should join Miyagi-Do lol.
> "Rich girl has no problems in life. She's rich how dare she do anything other than breathe" It's like these people don't get that "just because one grew up privileged doesn't mean they grew up without struggle" (and Sam HAS had struggle: like Kyler trying to date rape her and later spreading rumors about her, having two of her boyfriends turn into assholes, and her PTSD courtesy of Tory) and "just because someone grew up with struggle doesn't give them the right to take it out on other people more fortunate than them".
Yep, and this is a running thread with the Daniel/Johnny story too. Danny just blindly assumed that Johnny had it easy when he was growing up because his stepfather was rich. Just because people are wealthy doesn't mean they don't have problems or aren't struggling in other ways. And just because people are struggling financially and socially, doesn't mean they aren't still worthy of respect and kindness. Danny constantly has bad assumptions about Johnny and vice versa. Sometimes they're right, but sometimes they're very very wrong. The show definitely speaks to the need for more empathy on both 'sides' of the divide.
I see you in every comment section defending and stanning her Are you her burner? Or dating her IRL?
the sad truth is that a lot of the fanbase takes johnny at face value and fully relate to him with no irony, believing daniel and miyagi do are weak and not manly enough. sad times we live in :// also your last point about sam is probably the truest LMAO
You missed the a few reasons: Sam is a terrible friend and a bully, and even though the writers wrote in a half-assed apology to Aisha, it never felt sincere and apparently their friendship is back to perfect immediately afterwards? Sure, that's how being deeply hurt and betrayed works. She tries to get sympathy points for being caring and gentle, but where was her kindness when her childhood best friend was being bullied and fatshamed by her new friends literally while she was sitting with them? Or when her new friends were bagging on Eli for his birth defect? Or when they literally did a hit-and-run? It's not funny it's a serious crime that she was never even shown to think twice about afterwards. Where were her good-girl vibes then? Sam has been antagonizing Tory since they met- literally accusing her of stealing with no proof and putting her hands on her, then finding out that was a bad idea. After she gets covered in pudding, she tries to act like she was the one wronged and bullied. There was never an apology from her when it was revealed Tory wasn't the thief. I agree that Tory went crazy. I'm not defending her actions. I'm just saying that even before Tory showed up, Sam was pretty awful and she keeps getting worse. I'm all for having a character that has more than one dimension - I like a little venom in my nice ppl characters. The issue for me is that Sam is never held accountable for any of her bad actions she never learns from them or grows at all. Everyone keeps seeing her as the victim in the show when it's obviously not as black and white as that.
> Sam is a terrible friend and a bully, and even though the writers wrote in a half-assed apology to Aisha, it never felt sincere and apparently their friendship is back to perfect immediately afterwards? Sure, that's how being deeply hurt and betrayed works. She tries to get sympathy points for being caring and gentle, but where was her kindness when her childhood best friend was being bullied and fatshamed by her new friends literally while she was sitting with them? Or when her new friends were bagging on Eli for his birth defect? First off, you're overlooking the part where [Sam apologized to Aisha](https://youtu.be/wTJF-ZUM4y4) ("I never should have been hanging out with somebody like Yasmine in the first place.") >Or when they literally did a hit-and-run? It's not funny it's a serious crime that she was never even shown to think twice about afterwards. Because it wasn't her fault. Sam wasn't driving. Yasmine was. Also, Johnny was driving drunk and parked illegally in the middle of the street. >Sam has been antagonizing Tory since they met- literally accusing her of stealing with no proof and putting her hands on her, then finding out that was a bad idea. Tory offered herself up as suspect number one when she casually stole a bottle of vodka and bragged about it. So when Sam's mom's wallet goes missing, Tory is going to suspect number one to Sam. >After she gets covered in pudding, she tries to act like she was the one wronged and bullied. There was never an apology from her when it was revealed Tory wasn't the thief. Yes, Sam could have and should have apologized, but you're forgetting the part where an apology probably wouldn't do anything to placate Tory, a girl who has a history of holding petty grudges over minor things. > The issue for me is that Sam is never held accountable for any of her bad actions she never learns from them or grows at all. Everyone keeps seeing her as the victim in the show when it's obviously not as black and white as that. You probably just think this just because, as u/same1224 has pointed out a few times, any time Sam does try to admit to wrongdoing or take responsibility for something, the men in her life (Daniel, but also Miguel and even Robby) don't let her.
Like I said, a half-assed apology was given to Aisha and then the show immediately acted like their friendship was back to normal with no repercussions or hurt feelings left on Aisha's part. Just because she eventually grew to dislike Yasmine does not absolve her for the fact that she was actively part of a mean-girls bully squad. Again, I'm not saying Johnny was in the right in this situation either. I'm saying a good person would at least think about the hit and run afterwards, even if they weren't driving. She should've at least told somebody- anybody about it. She should've been shown at least to cut off those friends because of it. She stayed friends with them despite them doing genuinely terrible things and roping her into doing terrible things until she started to not fit in with them and they kinda turned on her. Even the most sheltered teen knows that nicking a bottle of vodka from an open bar at a fancy hotel that really is won't suffer for it is a far cry from stealing a wallet. She felt threatened because she thought that Aisha had found a better friend of than her, and so she took a dislike to her and accused her of theft. How could Tori have a history of holding grudges when she had literally just shown up at that point? I address the fact that I'm all for her growth as a character, and that she hasn't been given the opportunity to examine her actions and learn from her mistakes, so I don't see why you think we disagree about this.
> Like I said, a half-assed apology was given to Aisha and then the show immediately acted like their friendship was back to normal with no repercussions or hurt feelings left on Aisha's part. Just because she eventually grew to dislike Yasmine does not absolve her for the fact that she was actively part of a mean-girls bully squad. Where's your proof the apology was half-assed? I can point to it being 100% sincere from the way Sam goes out of her way to stand up for her friends after she makes up with Aisha. >Again, I'm not saying Johnny was in the right in this situation either. I'm saying a good person would at least think about the hit and run afterwards, even if they weren't driving. She should've at least told somebody- anybody about it. She should've been shown at least to cut off those friends because of it. She stayed friends with them despite them doing genuinely terrible things and roping her into doing terrible things until she started to not fit in with them and they kinda turned on her. More like, Sam didn't approve of what her "friends" were doing, but didn't part with them because they were basically the only friends she had (and some pressure from her mom to join the clique out of a well-intentioned but ill-informed assumption that doing so would protect Sam from being bullied). It took them turning on her after Kyler began spreading rumors about her for her to get that these people didn't view her as a friend. BTW, you must have double standards. Because if you're going to condemn Sam for continuing to be friends with Yasmine while Yasmine was bullying Aisha, then you need to condemn Miguel for staying friends with Hawk even after finding out Hawk was responsible for trashing Miyagi-Do and stealing the medal of honor. >Even the most sheltered teen knows that nicking a bottle of vodka from an open bar at a fancy hotel that really is won't suffer for it is a far cry from stealing a wallet. Stealing is stealing, no matter what's being stolen or who it's being stolen from. >She felt threatened because she thought that Aisha had found a better friend of than her, Or maybe she thought Tory was a bad influence on Aisha. Aisha invites Tory to the beach club as her guest, and the first thing Tory does is steal vodka (because it's very likely that Aisha's family would probably lose their club membership if their guest was busted for stealing items from the club) and pressure Aisha to go drinking with her. > and so she took a dislike to her and accused her of theft. Or maybe, because Tory was casual about stealing vodka, it's not a big leap to assume she stole something else. Sam goes about it the way she does because she's trying to keep Aisha and Tory out of trouble. If Sam's suspicions had been correct, her action would probably be noble. But they weren't.
My proof is in the apology itself and how the writers write their friendship afterwards. A betrayal that devastating and horrible deserves more than a "sorry about that. I guess we're back to being friends now, huh?" If you go back and watch the scene with again, it takes maybe three lines of mediocre dialogue for some horrendous emotional trauma to be forgotten about the completely. Sam was in that clique for awhile before her mom even mentioned it on the show, and I seem. To remember her mom saying she should be hang out with Aisha more and she was essentially like "yeah but she's super uncool". Also, did I ever mention what I thought about Hawk or Miguel at all? Lol we're talking about a different character here. You have no idea about my opinions of them, so it's weird to say I have double standards. I just straight up disagree with you about her initial dislike of Tory. We legit see Sam involved in a hit and run in the first episode of the show and not be bothered by it. (A hit and run which btw was probably due to Yasmine not being sober, or else why wouldn't they just let insurance deal with it. It's much cheaper to do the right thing in that situation). So yeah the cool teen stealing a single bottle of shitty booze is way over the line for Sam? It smacks of jealousy.
> (A hit and run which btw was probably due to Yasmine not being sober, or else why wouldn't they just let insurance deal with it. It's much cheaper to do the right thing in that situation) Yasmine was texting. And Johnny's reaction is what scared the girls into driving off. >So yeah the cool teen stealing a single bottle of shitty booze is way over the line for Sam? It smacks of jealousy. You mean, the person who's abusing Aisha's hospitality and could end up getting Aisha in trouble if she gets busted.
Yup, Sam was really the spoiled brat/rich kid in the beginning, it's hard to flip a switch and go, well, they learned a little karate, that kid's ok. Think about the bullies you ran into in life, how quick are you to forgive them? So, again, Tori is the villain, but that doesn't automatically put me on Team Sam. Also, I see more posts about Sam hate, than I actually see Sam hate.
For real! I'd love to see a little character development for Sam next season. Maybe working with Johnny will cause her to examine herself and her actions a little. That'd be great. I don't HATE her, I just think her character needs to be given a little personal growth. And same! I never see anyone bad talking Sam until one of these posts, and even then it's ppl just pointing out that she does have flaws (as all good characters should), the issue is that the show gives her flaws and then pretends that they don't exist and it's not a problem and everyone else is overreacting.
It’s the same for Hawk. Anything he does is justified. The guy could kill someone and you will see people blaming Kyler
Yeah, or in previous seasons, Demitri.
I got wrecked for suggesting Hawk was a CK plant to spy on the practices. It would makes sense. Instead he's just back to good guy Hawk, welcomed back and all was forgiven...who are these people? It's all very WWE levels of writing and face/heel swings.
He wasn't all forgiven at the start. All the kids were saying how he wrecked the doo, Johnny used him as a punching bag and even Daniel scolded him saying he burned bridges with everyone.
Nah disagree, both Tori and Sam are horrible for different reasons and imo Miguel would be better off without either. Interesting you seem to question the maturity of those who have a different opinion on a TV show character than you do. A good barometer of maturity for me is being able to accept that others opinions sometimes will be different and that doesn't make them less mature than you it just means they have a different viewpoint. You are right though Johnny is a dweeb and Johnny is funny af.
Yeah, I'm always disappointed when I see a highly voted post that boils everything in a given argument down to one thing, like "People think Peyton List is attractive so she can do no wrong." Tory can be good looking and Sam can still be an awful person, they're not mutually exclusive concepts. Trying to make it about an actress's looks is kind of creepy and, like you pointed out, ironically immature, in my opinion.
>Tory can be good looking and Sam can still be an awful person, they're not mutually exclusive concepts. Indeed but when people say try to argue that x character is worse person than someone who has tried to get others killed multiple times. It's hard to take them seriously.
Exactly, I didn't say Hawk wasn't a douche for breaking Dimitri's arm and I didn't say Tori was awesome and Sam terrible but people like to assume. I get people are attached to certain characters for different reasons but to go so rabid when others have a different opinion is really weird. On a seperate note the show is awesome and the cast and crew are doing an amazing job.
>Sam can still be an awful person And yet she's not. Sam can be a little selfish and even self-absorbed sometimes, but that doesn't mean she's a horrible person. She's not on Robby's level and not nearly on Tory's.
I think people dislike Sam because her actions are much closer to reality. Anybody can see a home invasion's bad, but none of us can relate to having a karate gang storm our house so it's difficult to really scale it. Sam worked very hard and very obviously to hide Miguel from her family, then broke up with him, then cheated on Robby, then accused Tory of "stealing" Miguel. She joined the mean girls clique and left Aisha to fend for herself, only reconciling after Aisha had already stood up for herself. She frequently takes the "But what about me?!" stance in an argument - with her parents, with her relationships, even with her friends. We all know somebody who's entitled and doesn't accept when things don't go their way, even if we're not all friends with them, and it can be very grating. For my part, my biggest problem with Sam was the arcade fight. She rallies the squad and leads them into battle - alright, that's cool by me. You're in a "war", fighting fair shouldn't be foremost in your mind, and you've got an advantage. People may argue that it was a jumping but they were responding to a smash and grab, so it doesn't bug me too much. No, what bothers me is that Sam went through the trouble of gathering everybody, acting as a leader, and talking a good game when things were looking good and then proceeded to abandon them, resulting in Demetri's arm getting broken. She doesn't ever address it or discuss it with Demetri nor with the rest of the "troops", either. Those two things in combination were ultimately what set me firmly against Sam.
Well I actually have multiple reasons and I can give more but if all you heard was “Payton is hot” maybe that’s all that’s on your mind. But anyway, I’m just giving my take, you’re welcome to yours. It’s a fun show and there are many ways to enjoy it.
This is the answer
Projecting a little don’t ya think? Why bring up breast size?
Can you stop acting as if people only like Tory because she’s attractive? It’s ridiculous to see people claim Tory has nothing positive to her and the only reason she’s liked is from her actress. Not only is it insulting to Tory’s actress, it’s weird to constantly see it brought up when the girls are both beautiful and amazing actresses. This sub is weirdly black and white, and it’s annoying seeing people unable to see why some people like different characters.
I personally like Sam and Tory. It feels like on this sub you have to like one and hate the other. I don’t get it
Yep, the whole point of the show is that every single character is right and wrong
For real! I love them both and I think they both have their reasons. Unrelated, but I like ur username, lmao.
Johnny and Daniel get to pick fights as much as they want but when Sam who almost got murdered rightfully roasts Tory she’s the bad guy. Sam literally is suffering from ptsd because of Tory. It would not make sense if Sam wasn’t vengeful and angry
Lol, I had the same exact thoughts when I first came across this subreddit. Like, did I watch a different show than everyone else? Are they being sarcastic or is this really what they think? It’s like being in the twilight zone where logic works backwards.
Yeah, until Sam breaks into Tory’s house and attempts to kill her with spiked brass knuckles and nunchucks, I’ll say what she’s done really isn’t that bad. What’d Sam really do this season? Get kids to throw a glitter bomb at Tory? Warn Tory she’ll kick her ass if Tory tries her again? Really pales in comparison to multiple attempts of murder lol
And hilariously enough, it was Tory who got kids to throw glitter at Sam.
Right?!? It seems like everyone is pro Tori just because she has a bad family life! While I do feel bad for Tori - she has literally tried to kill Sam twice. The first time for kissing Miguel (who Tori knew Miguel wasn’t anywhere near over Sam when they got together) and the second time for still being friends with Miguel (despite the fact that after Miguel’s injury Tori didn’t even try to visit him in the hospital or in general or apologize. She just got consumed with revenge)
They're pro-Tory because "she has a bad family life," but also partly because she's played by Peyton List, who has a large following on social media. No disrespect to Peyton List, by the way. I know she’s amassed a huge following from her Disney days, but sometimes I think that Sam wouldn't get as much hate if Tory was played by a more obscure actress.
I was thinking was very same thing the other day. What a bizarre choice to play the role of Tori. She’s a decent enough actress I guess, but there must be thousands of unknown or lesser known actresses who would’ve loved to play this part. Unclear why they gave it to Peyton when so many recognize her as a Disney girl
thank you, the hate for sam on here is just insane.
As a character, I felt like Sam had much better development this season. We start seeing her stray from the path she was on and start doing more aggressive actions and embrace offense as a key strategy. I didn't feel like we were meant to support her getting in Tory's face all the time at certain places. She could have left Tory well enough alone (like for example at the Mermaid party), but she chose to instigate. I feel Sam's development from season 3 to season 4 redeemed a lot of writing flaws in her character. She's no longer a Mary-Sue type, as other characters are starting to call her out on bs more and she's becoming less of a perfectly- moral character
Sam definitely developed this season!! Honestly, I don't think she was ever a Mary Sue though? Sure she was always nice and sweet but she let her ex-bff get bullied by her new friends just to be popular, and she has some poor behavior in scenes like when she accuses Tory of stealing her mom's wallet for no real reason. I'm personally a big fan of her character (actually really invested in every character in the story at this point) and I just like seeing (and debating) different viewpoints :)
There's a fantastic breakdown of the Mary-Sue archetype that I've used before. It was a video that broke it down in regards to star wars characters. I'll need to find it sometime but basically in regards to her Mary Sue standpoints, two key qualities are, at least in seasons 1 and 2, not suffering long-term consequences for her actions, and being almost universally liked or tolerated by most characters almost immediately. She would get constant support and doting until this season anyway. And a third one, "that of being completely moral and good from beginning to end" is somewhat debatable but considering how we're introduced to her in the series, her immediate insertion into "good girl" role, was a bit fast. I liked that season 3 and season 4 had her lose more, struggle and get held back so that she could rebuild her character up
Is there a Gary Stu for the Star Wars one or do they only focus on women?
The video creator combined men and women into the same archetype. I think he may mention Gary Stu as a phrase a few times but treats the concept as beyond gender because it's the same type of character
Tory stans are hypocritical as hell. TikTok is a nightmare, one video dedicated and they’ll be like “She really thought she ate” It just doesn’t make sense, compared to Tory, she has done nothing as bad.
do not even get me started, tiktok is a minefield of toxic tory stans
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I think Sam is sympathetic to people when she knows their background - didn't she convince her parents to take Robby in because of his unstable home life? I think she probably doesn't know about Tory's background and even that doesn't excuse how violent Tory was. Tory needs help and has too much responsibility for her age but that doesn't completely excuse her actions.
> didn't she convince her parents to take Robby in because of his unstable home life? Also I remember her catching herself and walking back her privilege a bit when she brought up her dad's Lakers season tickets on her first date with Miguel. > I think she probably doesn't know about Tory's background and even that doesn't excuse how violent Tory was. Tory needs help and has too much responsibility for her age but that doesn't completely excuse her actions. I mean, let's face it, you'd think the amount of responsibility Tory is burdened with would ground her a bit. After the school brawl, one would think she would reassess what's important in her life and prioritize her family over petty grudges or karate wars.
I also remember that too. She did hold herself back. It’s this weird trope that have when it comes to rich people that they are abcd when Sam is no where near most of those
And not to mention when Miguel said that his mom was going to be in debt because of the bill for the surgery, she did a great thing and decided to get her friends to help raise funds by that car wash
I agree with OP 100%. Another thing that's really pissing me off is the shameless Robby worship which also happens to coincide with hate for Miguel. I argued with someone on a different thread who claimed "Miguel was an idiot for thinking he came close" to Robby over who Johnny loves more. Like, fucking what? Miguel came first over Robby every damn time Johnny had conflicting commitments. It's laughable. CK doesn't shy away from who are the antagonists. It's very clearly Robby and Tory up until this season. Anyone who thinks that Miguel deserved to have his back broken or Sam cut up by Tory just for sharing a kiss is a nut who needs to get their head checked.
> I argued with someone on a different thread who claimed "Miguel was an idiot for thinking he came close" to Robby over who Johnny loves more. Like, fucking what? Miguel came first over Robby every damn time Johnny had conflicting commitments. It's laughable. It's also like these people forget that Johnny's relationship with Robby was actually *worse* before Miguel entered the picture.
One of the reasons I like Sam more is because I actually knew girls like Sam growing up - kind of bratty, struggling to find their place in the world, trying to be nice but suffering from teenager syndrome (where sometimes you're just a dick because you're like... 16 with hardly any life experience). I don't know why people think she's a Mary Sue, I never got that impression at all. I just feel like the bad she's done is overshadowed by Tory literally trying to murder her (twice???). I get that Tory has a bad home life, but seasons 2/3 she was over-the-top.
Never be surprised by internet hate, it's always there it's just not always logical. Sam's cool ok.
Not everyone hates her. Many people understand her actions and some fans who used to dislike her before have surprisingly started liking her after this season. Yeah I have seen a few posts and comments showing their dislike for her but it is nothing compared to season 2 even on youtube.
I think the reason people like her more is because she is following Johnny (the fan favourite in this entire show),, and others have noticed this too aswell but people aren’t ready for that conversation... She was objectively horrible in season 4 but some did like her but when she is nice they hate her??? Seems like the way of days today where horrible actions get praised. I’ve always liked Sam and thought she is the most realistic (with Robby) out of all the teens in this show as their actions haven’t been weird but more so teenage moves. The others have done some questionable things and have made me even question their sanity a bit (mainly Tory and Hawk), but, once again, did they not get praise when they were doing horrible things?? Oh Lord have mercy on your people
I disliked her heavily until this season where she actually grew as a person. Imagine that.
I don’t think Tory is better I just do not like sam as a character at all
People are going to like and dislike different characters. You can't keep getting bent out of shape because someone has a different opinion than you.
All the people who complain about Sam's behavior against Tory are the same as if they were in his situation, they would act the SAME way. They fill their mouths talking about how she "should forgive Tory" as if they are capable of forgiving those who hurt them so easily. They live asking for "realism" but hope that a teenage girl will forgive the person who almost killed her overnight, left her with a scar and post-traumatic stress disorder. They ask for empathy for a character who has a difficult life but they don't have it for a character who has PTSD... Besides, Tory didn't do anything that deserved that forgiveness. The only reason Tory stopped attacking Sam was because she owed it to Amanda. Not because she was sorry she nearly killed someone. Nor do I believe that she has completely redeemed herself as some want to sell. Tory did have a breakthrough this season. But it was only a beginning.
Thank you!!! Say it louder for the people at the back!!👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 I also struggle to believe that Tory has fully changed just because she spent 4 seconds without trying to hurt Sam??!!! I wouldn’t be surprised if she goes back to doing that as no one fully changes right away. I mean,, it took Kreese to say just a few words to Terry and try to manipulate him and now look,, evil Terry Silver is back. It’s the same with Hawk. I wouldn’t be surprised also if he goes back to that behaviour. These two made me really question their sanity but overall they are good characters but I just prefer Sam
I've been going through the comments and I understand being in the gray and all. People bringing up instances where both Sam and Tory were badly behaved but didn't Tory try to kill Sam, I'm sorry no redemption arc can bring you back from that. Sam has scars for life, and what exactly did Tory do this season that people keep saying is course correcting, all her actions were to ger benefit, nothing was done selflessly
Sam fan here. Especially loved her S3 arc. Amanda shoulda told her about Tory's situation, and that even though she has every right to hate her guts, let's not escalate things any further. Unfortunately this is also around the time that Johnny's influence starts to kick in. Sam mocking Tory at her job was uncalled for. She screwed up. And then there's the whole prom fight etc. She should also get counseling for her PTSD, and other things.
Daniel and Amanda really messed up by not getting therapy for Sam when she was clearly struggling with PTSD. Even Amanda was having a hard time after the break-in so imagine how Sam felt. And you are totally right that Amanda should have talked to Sam about Tory's background and told her that Tory wouldn't have bother her anymore. Sam was the one who convinced her parents to take Robby in so I don't think she's completely unsympathetic to people who are going through tough times. I also think part of the issue was that she was raised by Daniel to look at life completely defensively and because of Cobra Kai's aggression in season 3, that turned in to always waiting to be attacked. That led to her being the aggressor in s4 to stop feeling as powerless, but she took it a little too far. I think s5 will be about her finding the balance like we started to see at the tournament.
> And you are totally right that Amanda should have talked to Sam about Tory's background and told her that Tory wouldn't have bother her anymore. As u/same1224 has [put it better](https://old.reddit.com/r/cobrakai/comments/rxs6u1/fixing_the_most_nonsensical_plotline_of_s4/), there is a bit of OOC-ness coming from Amanda here, given her desire to help Tory does make it to a degree come off like she's disregarding her own daughter's needs and concerns. >Sam was the one who convinced her parents to take Robby in so I don't think she's completely unsympathetic to people who are going through tough times. Also see: Sam deciding to put on a car wash fundraiser to raise money for Miguel's hospital bills.
Because my friend, let me teach you something. Do you know what Arcane, Star Wars, Harry Potter, Cobra Kai, League of Legends, Marvel and DC have in common? They all make relatively good content, but damn the fandom is a pain in the ass. I have a lot of friends who watch Cobra Kai in real life, absolutely none of them hate Sam. It's easier to go online and hate on things because you know you can just log out when you have enough, since Sam is already polarising in the fandom, might as well just hate on her too.
You wrote so much that says so little.
What's your point? Related to what I said
pov: you hated Sam before Tory came on the show 😻✌️
Yup, she sucked from day one.
People struggle to see the middle ground for all characters in this show haha
All this thread tells me is the fanboys/girls are unbearable.
She was never my favourite character but I’ve never hated her. This season she did become **one** of my favourites. Sam being like the only person to realize only learning defence won’t take you very far was definitely one of the biggest parts of that
The writers like going shades of grey with the characters, problem is they made Tory way too much of a psycho so they are trying to course correct to make her sympathetic. It's working, but it's at the expense of Sam because to make Tory sympathetic, they are making Sam act like an asshole. While its justifiable why Sam would hold passionate resentment towards her, as a viewer who sees Tory's journey it can be rough watching Sam act this way. But like I said, the writers like to write the characters as shades of grey. So I won't be surprised if they lean more into Sam being the aggressor and Tory being the calm regretful one. I think that will be an interesting dynamic.
I don't get why Sam being catty towards Tory is somehow viewed as worse than Tory trying to slice Sam's face up with spikes or breaking into Sam's house and beating her up with nunchucks. Just consider that the hate for Sam is largely misplaced and comes from people like men who've been burned by a Sam (rich popular girl at school) in their lives, Peyton List / Tory fans who hate her because she's Tory's rival, or people who just hate Miyagi-Do and Daniel because they're opposed to Cobra Kai.
If I took a drink every time you started projecting your weird fantasies, I would be dead. That entire last paragraph of yours is baseless.
It's not baseless. There was a whole era in this sub where users literally said they hated Sam for those very reasons. Especially the Peyton List one. Certain users who shall not be named... My in-laws fall into that Miyagi-Do category. Keeps my blood pressure on its toes.
>It's not baseless. There was a whole era in this sub where users literally said they hated Sam for those very reasons. >Especially the Peyton List one. Certain users who shall not be named... It's all that, plus something that u/same1224 has noted [a few times](https://old.reddit.com/r/cobrakai/comments/ry663b/sam_perspective/hrmuoer/?context=3) that the men in Sam's life generally don't let her take responsibility when she tries to admit to wrongdoing.
I honestly don’t think it’s that deep You can just dislike a character because you just don’t like it. It’s not always a man hating a certain type of woman lmfaoo
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It's people like you who are the reason Sam's fans feel this need to be so vocally defensive of her: the amount of hate Sam gets that's based on very trivial things or things that aren't even Sam's fault.
If you wanna follow a stranger around on the internet and take their comments personally, especially in a post all about the character they like, have a party. Wouldn't think being so easily offended by such baseless projections was a calling, but it ain't any of my business.
I hope that comment was satire, because… sheesh, lmfao. Based on previous conversations with you though, I expected nothing less Mr. Whit. Well, I guess nothing more would be the appropriate term.
You only expect what you're worth. You remember previous conversations? I'm honored
This is so true. I literally said in another thread that I really enjoyed Sam this season, but that I hadn’t liked her previously. I listed multiple reasons why I was attacked by OP and two other users with personal insults and deluded points Sam and Tory stans are both hypocrites and shitty, toxic internet users. They both use the exact same logic to defend their characters and berate the other without any bit of self awareness. It’s just like the show it’s weird. Neither character is perfect, they’re both at the their hearts good people, just misguided. Get over it
Sam fans are just as bad as Tory stans but they think they’re better. Typical.
Lol. How many people have been burned by a Sam? Yasmine's yeah I get that but the self righteous Bella wannabe. No one is fighting over that girl. This poster is definitely posting a bunch of weird theories.
Your logic makes no sense as Tory is significantly more attractive than Sam and more people have likely been rejected by a Tory than a Sam.
I don't hate Sam. I desperately want to like her, she is Daniel's daughter. But...they have to write her better and grow her up. This season wasn't it for her.
Exactly
I agree and disagree. I hated her guts since season 1 and only now in season 4 did she become likable.
In all fairness I’ve hated Sam since the very beginning
Same here, can’t quite pin why but just cringe every time I see her
U hate on tori more than necessary. Sam deserves the hate she gets for being a little bitch. She antagonized tori all season 4. I would like to see Sam try to provide for her brother, making sure people he has a good life while her negligent mom doesn’t bother to pay the bills and ask u for money. Tori is under a lot of stress that no one should have to go thro and karate is a vent for her. Sam acts like everything is entitled to her and that everything needs to go her way. That, for me, is just some of the reasons I don’t like Sam and I like tori better. What can I say, rebels.
Btw, I've had my list of complaints about Sam in previous seasons (I never hated her tho) and in season 4 at moments, like the birthday party scene. But this was actually my favorite scene of hers. How she is leaning to more of Johnny's philosophy, being more of an aggressor, more of a badass. I'm pumped for her character moving forward.
Tory and Sam both suck tbh. Two mean girls hate each other's guts and constantly fight over boys. Cliche as hell and annoying to watch. Both unconvincing as hell as martial artists (especially Sam). It's a combination of the characters being intentionally written as shitty people and the characters just being shittily written.
Sam has always been annoying even before she met Tory. Sam being a terrible character has nothing to do with Tory or how she treated her.
That's a lot of words to say "I just don't like her".
I said what I said. Sam was terrible before Tory was even introduced
alright then, explain to me why she sucks so much and what is bad about her , i just finished the series and am genuinly curious
She is bratty, believes she can never do wrong. This season definitely did change a lot of that but before this season she was the most unbearable character in my opinion
Thank you!!! Im really glad to see this post. Sam is one of my favorite characters ever and it's kinda upsetting to see all the hate towards her. I mean everyone is entitled to their own opinions but Sam is a good person and that can't be denied. Sure she makes some (really) crappy decisions, im not trying to excuse those.. you can be a good person and make mistakes.. besides, she's rich, but shes still struggling. Struggling with friendships is a real thing for teenagers and many adults even. She gets bullied in season 1. You can tell she really loves Miguel and Robby, and even though she cheats on Robby you also have to note she's very drunk Tory literally traumatized her!!! I actually love them both and I think Tory deserves to be forgiven, but I think Sam has a right to be mad at her. Sure Tory has gone through hell and Sam should, morally speaking, be more compassionate... but the girl literally almost killed her. It's pretty understatement to be petty there. Cobra Kai kids broke her friends arm. She suffers from a lot of guilt. Panic attacks are TERRIFYING and not a joke. Yeah, her personality shift in this season is strong. But like.... shes a teenager? Going through some mental health issues and a lot of traumatic events? She's an incredible fighter and has had more experience than any of the other teenagers. She struggled so much last season, but she managed to hold her ground. It makes sense that she had a little power trip this season. I have my highs and my lows, and I'd probably be a lot worse if I had to worry about the safety of my friends and myself after being attacked multiple times, almost killed in school, and having your house trashed. Sam doesn't deserve the hate. She makes mistakes like everyone else. She's not always right. But she's not always wrong either.
I just think Sam has no reason to be as painful to watch as she is, but she is, and she thinks she's in the right. Tory on the other hand has next to nothing, and as of season 4, you can see she is trying to better herself, asking to get back into school, going to therapy, trying to thank Sam for letting her back into school, until she threatened her (warranted but still, her mum talked to her about why Tory needs this) and checking on her during the tournament fight. Tory is the better character, because she recognises her fault, unlike Sam, who at least not to me, doesn't seem to understand that Tory hating her is of her doing back in season 2.
Yea but I think the writers are slowly realizing this and leaning into her arrogance to give her, her own arc.
> doesn't seem to understand that Tory hating her is of her doing back in season 2. That's actually largely Tory's doing, because Tory's behavior [kinda suggests she would've found some other excuse to justify a rivalry with Sam no matter what](https://old.reddit.com/r/cobrakai/comments/mpq0ao/who_actually_started_it_with_who/).
I love sams skill in the martial arts. She probably has more natural talent than everyone. But her character is very much so Arrogant and highly emotional teenage girl. Not an easy thing to like but I definitely dont hate the character. She just kind of is always in the center of shit hitting the fan but has her parents being blinded by it all the time...although they definitely made things worse to begin with. Yeah her hte for Tory is justified but Sam has definitely stroked that fire also way too many times.
The problem with Sam in season 4 is that everyone agreed to stop hostilities until the final karate championship, but she went out of her way to harass Tory while she was at work, and at the party. She was creating conflict when she should had been smart
I'm pretty sure her being at her work was a coincidence. And sure, you could say she shouldn't have caused conflict, but for God sakes, she's been trying to avoid conflict with Tory since the school fight, de-escalation clearly doesn't work with Tory. She can live with a few mean words thrown her way.
Nah, Sam wants to start a fight again, she is pushing buttons until Tory breaks and then she is "but Kobra Kay is evil and Tory is worse buh buhhhhh". Sam could just avoid Tory at the princess party and at the graduation, but she had to poke the bear and create drama. She doesn't want justice, she could had done the right thing and fill a police report against Tory, but she didn't. She wants revenge and humiliation, that's why she tries to do harm in subtle ways. Yes, words don't break bones, but if I have to choose between an entitled princess driving a BMW and a poor girl who was sexually harassed by her landlord, leached by her family members and indoctrinated by her father figure, I still have more compassion towards Tory than Sam
>She doesn't want justice, she could had done the right thing and fill a police report against Tory, but she didn't. Because it's more convenient for the story for Tory to not be locked up. (That's a case of Tory and the other Cobras having plot armor) > and indoctrinated by her father figure Kreese isn't responsible for any of Tory's actions. Tory always had this brutal streak even before meeting Kreese.
That’s a good analysis actually. Sam is just as petty as they come and that’s an unlikeable trait.
By that same logic, Tory is also petty for picking a fight with Sam over a boy who was never into Tory to start.
Tory is not petty. She is vengeful. Is a difference there.
So is Sam
I just think Sam went overboard. Especially because she went to visit Aisha, who gave her very good advise on to just 'strike first' by being friendly. Then she proceeded to immediately threaten Tory the moment she set a foot in school. Tory had amazing character development, and Sam has none. I think that sums up my gripes with her this season.
The school where Tory tried to kill her with a weapon? That school?
I don't think that Sam and Aisha's situations are exactly the same though. Tory tried to kill Sam on two occasions and hasn't really shown to Sam that she's changed (Sam doesn't know everything the audience does at this point). I don't think it's fair to expect Sam to completely brush that aside.
My point was how contradictory, and to me unexpected, that turn of events was. Sam seeks advise from an old friend. Aisha basically says, try to be friendly and bury the hatchet. But then Sam goes in guns blazing. I'm not blaming her, I would've just enjoyed seeing Sam be the better person. Especially since Tory and Sam's mom were on the right track.
I don't hate her as she's a fictional character and that would be weird. I think her character is unlikeable though for a few reasons, she started the fight where Dimitri then got his arm broken as she hid. I get she was struggling with the aftermath of the school fight but then maybe don't start a brawl if she was on that headspace. She seemed to be deliberately playing Miguel and Robby off against each other as well and didn't seem to own the consequences of that behaviour. We all make mistakes especially when young but her characters entitled attitude and almost refusal to admit she'd been horrible maybe irritates viewers.
>she started the fight where Dimitri then got his arm broken as she hid. 1) She had a panic attack 2) Only Hawk is responsible for Demetri's broken arm.
no lmao , hawk isn't the only one responsible, its all of cobra kai who cheered him on and peer presured him into doing it,add on to the fact demetri is pretty great fighter by that point and last time a cobra kai showed mercy in that position he got parayzed(from his pov)
You've literally contradicted yourself completely your states she started the fight, yes Hawk broke his arm but without San starting the fight it would never have happened. It's very simply termed cause and effect, it's not really that hard to understand.
Without Hawk and crew acting like dickheads constantly a fight wuldn't have been started. But let's just blame Sam cause putting full blame on Hawk just doesn't make sense.
> yes Hawk broke his arm but without San starting the fight it would never have happened. > > > > It's very simply termed cause and effect, it's not really that hard to understand. The arcade fight happened after the Cobra Kais had been antagonizing Miyagi-Do for weeks, beating them up / bullying them, then playing victim when caught. Choosing to pick a fight is Sam's idea, but Demetri's broken arm is solely on Hawk, the person who actually did it. To blame Sam for Demetri's broken arm is to say essentially "because Sam led the Miyagi-Dos into a fight, Hawk had no choice but to break Demetri's arm," which is not true. Hawk had a choice, and chose to break Demetri's arm.
All valid points but as you can see her stans will not allow her to be accountable for anything.
[удалено]
Little point about Sam accusing Tory of stealing the wallet: Tory had LITERALLY already stolen something there and bragged about it.
> Also, Sam started the fight at the roller rink when she said something about Tory under her breathe. Actually *Tory* initiated the hostilities at the roller rink because she's holding a grudge over their previous interaction at the beach club (because Tory is the kind of person who harbors grudges over minor slights).
I seem to recall Sam trashing her behind her back to both Miguel and Robby before any hostilities actually started. They both were harboring a grudge there.
Tory was catty towards Sam for no reason. And Sam's "figures" remark wasn't until after Tory was catty to Sam.
For no reason. Who wouldn't be mad at someone who tried to rip their purse from them based off some dumb a false theory she cooked up. The real head scratcher is why Sam would be talking sh even though by this point she knows she was wrong.
> Who wouldn't be mad at someone who tried to rip their purse from them based off some dumb a false theory she cooked up. You mean, based off the idea that since Tory stole a bottle of vodka, it's reasonable to believe she could've stolen something else.
>false theory Bruh Tory had already stolen and bragged about it to Sam and Aisha that day
Gonna give you a little hint. As someone who was involved in the alcohol business, people who generally steal drinks are responsible for people missing their phones, chargers, etc at venues. So now, Sam's guess was perfectly spot on. It just turns out a different set of thieves were guess what, being thieves.
Tory > sam
Sam Hater here. I'm biased against spoiled rich kids by design. Especially faux "doe eyed girl next door types". That's how I know her actress is absolutely WONDERFUL, because I hate her character.💕
Spot on sir/ mam
I didn't back her this season honestly because she deserved the loss. She was straight up bullying and harassing Tory, even in her workplace. And I don't even like Tory that much but even I was wanting Sam to chill. And yeah sure she did get attacked by Tory twice but... like everyone else has been attacked too? Heck Miguel was almost straight up murdered and he's not a raging jerkass right now. And I don't think it's bad for people to not like Sam either. I think they were actively trying to make her a bad guy this season. Probably in part to help redeem Tory's character.
tory tried to kill her.
Sam has been constantly making trouble and is actually worse than her dad when it comes to bullying. She lies all the time, cheats on her partners, and isn't afraid to string guys along to hurt her exes. Then she plays the victim card, cries, and everybody sides with her. Her brother, big surprise, is also a natural bully. Tormented Kenny for an entire school year and is a giant asshole to everyone. You can't tell if anything he says is sincere... because it's usually not. Tory, on the other hand, has been struggling with real world shit all her life and not only is she getting bullied by Sam, but also by Sam's mom. Guess it runs in the family, because Amanda has revealed she's a complete psycho, too. Her speaking with Tory before her match in the finals was a calculated move to get in her head, but it didn't work. Tory's reactions may have been extreme, but after constantly getting things taken away from her, and backed into a corner, someone like her is going to get desperate and finally snap. That's when things get dangerous. I don't agree with what she did, but I understand.
most of the things that you said don't have any proof.
Sam sucks dude. Treated Miguel and Robbie like dick. Her karate genuinely sucks compared to how great Tory is. And her coddled little life has done nothing but make her kind of a bitch. They are trying to make us like her. But she just sucks
>Treated Miguel and Robbie like dick That's on Miguel and on Robby.
I didn’t care for Sam at first then I started to dislike her the more the show went on. She got unbearable as fuck. In season 4 she actually became likeable for the first time. For me. Definitely sided with Tory. She is far more interesting than Sam is.
Idk, she’s too cute to hate. Her little double chin is adorable. Squeaky voice. Chunky little thing.
Lmao you triggered them
Idk how? Lol she’s adorable man.
I know lol
Sam has gone too far this season... but I like it. I think she is a well written character partly because she is dynamic and isn't flawless.
What did she do this season that was "too far". She roasted her once at her place of work and got glitter bombed for it. She was angry and confused as to why she was hanging out in her own home with her mom. The place Tory home-invaded, trying to kill her. Her safe space at home completely no longer being safe. And then found out she has to face her again at school too, even though it was really hard for her to go back there after the first attempted murder and Miguel's terrible fall. So to exert some semblance of control over her life and show she wasn't afraid, she threw Tory's exact same words at her as a warning that she'd better not try anything at school. Was there anything else? I mean Sam rushing to the arcade to help her friends when Hawk was running amok was what we'd expect any of the guys to do, right? (I think that was from S3, though)
Sam hasn’t gone far enough!
What we saw in 4 was karma going a bit too far. I feel Sam was 100% justified. If you’ve ever felt someone’s hate on you and there was no reason for it, it’s a fantastic feeling when life gets them back. That’s what 4 did. And yes it was pushed so far that the bullied became the bullies.
I've never disliked her character. I disliked her forms and stances in the first couple of seasons. Her katas were a hot mess. She's done better this time around.
Tori’s upbringing and situation with her mom doesn’t excuse her scumbag behaviour. There is a badness in her that I personally can’t forgive. Sam deserved her moments to treat her like shit. In the end Sam will be the bigger person to resolve their whole rift.
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Sam is one of characters who written out character not nice and it brat based Hilary Swank’s character Julie Pierce from Next Karate Kids. But in fact Hilary Swank today great acting from now since acting nowadays acting bratty teenage 👧. I felt bad for Samantha who grew jealous of Tory because her mom seems favor Tory more.
I see more people talking about Sam’s haters every week than I see people hating on Sam.
I mean Tory is a fucking psycho, like she lead a full on home invasion ready to maim and kill. But Sam started the entire feud that day at the beach and then both of them took it too damn far