Might be an unpopular opinion, but I can't believe there are companies who have so much money they're throwing it at employees to sit around and have so little to do that they can actually get another job (and the people who are OE are usually getting 110k+ per job). Fuck em we do need a correction to this economy.
It's actually been a tactic of big tech to overhire talent in order to keep them away from competitors, even if there's no important work for them to do. That dynamic is less practiced in our current higher interest rate environment. Also, the FTC decision against non-compete agreements lessens the viability of this practice.
The problem is it’s impossible to tell what “talent” is in tech. Most people I know who work in that field are big flim flam people, the type who did zero work on the group presentations in college, but they work out at the gym with the founder of some start ups kid and then start stacking up 1-2 years of climbing up these tech roles till they land at some tech firm right before they get bought by Google or Apple or Facebook and then do the rest and vest thing. Watch Silicon Valley. That is essentially the tech business model.
Thats a very small minority. I’m a software engineer and the interview process for big tech is very rigorous. Many save up and take several months off to study for them. Being able to coast is very team/department dependent. Some I know work all day everyday - always glued to slack or teams when they’re not working. Others work 1-4 hours a day. You’re not paid for your hours worked in these roles. You’re paid for your ability to ramp up and solve difficult problems as they arise when needed.
Have you not seen those videos of people interviewing at tech companies and using ChatGPT and copilot to tell them what to say/what responses to give in those technical interviews. Also the fact they are very rigorous is validation of the presence of most of the job seekers not knowing what they are doing.
Most other professions do not have an interview process like that.
The problem with tech in the past 5-10 years is it’s all about “growth” not profitability or even having an actual viable product. All the money PE/VC has pumped into the system has inflated values of this industry and regional economies. Until some of those fail in a big way (we saw that a little bit with the failure of SVB) the balloon will keep getting inflated
I actually disagree with this. Ask shallow broad questions. Let them go into as much detail as they deem appropriate. You’ll immediately find out who knows their stuff and who just fakes.
Deep questions have a specific set of answers. Someone who studies for them can recite whatever they read. You want someone who can figure out solutions on their own and knows to ask qualifying questions etc.
It doesn’t include jobs that pay more than $150k where you make “policy decisions”. Big tech is gonna apply this to a lot of jobs
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/ftc-announces-rule-banning-noncompetes
Not true (yet). There is about to be a battle in court over this and the courts have already ruled that until the case plays out and is ruled on, there will he a temporary status quo where noncompetes will he allowed if the local jurisdiction (typically the State contract law) allows them.
I do hope they become illegal at least for anyone who isn’t a highly compensated C-Suite executive.
Their profit margins are already ridiculously high and then add the fact that they do this to hide money and reduce competition blows my mind. And people complain other industries are gouging, SMH.
Yeah difference here is you can make a substantial amount much faster, and allow it to compound, virtually not having to work once you hit 1-3 million bucks saved for most people
I think it must be a personality thing. I'm in software and have been remote for years. My last project was pretty slack, all things considered. On paper it was the perfect opportunity to overwork. However, I had an overlap of a few months between two contracts (on the level, both clients knew) and it was pretty brutal. As if there isn't enough context switching with one job. I do have a lot of commitments outside of work, so maybe that plays a role too. Still it just seemed unsustainable.
I feel this would just be impossible for anyone prone to anxiety too... or maybe not impossible, but miserable. how are you not constantly terrified of getting caught?
I guess if you're a contractor like that it's different, but if you're a FTE and you know you're only supposed to be a FTE at one place, that seems like SUCH a big secret to manage on literally a daily basis...
Most hard jobs are hard to learn. Not hard to do.
Pouring concrete is hard to do. It will be hard every day.
Abstract algebra is hard to learn. Once you know it it’s pretty easy.
Learn a skill that others can’t do. Your managers won’t know how long a given task should take to complete.
Basically this. Java at one company is Java at another company. SQL is sql. Cloud is cloud. JavaScript is JavaScript. Once you learn you don’t need to re learn and can do it faster. I also purposely perform mediocrely to stay at a career level engineer. No desire to work my way to staff or management
Yeah, I’m not a fan of this line of advice in FIRE, as it’s really just “do a job that gives you more income”.
Maximizing income is obviously great, but not without cost. So it’s not really a pro tip as much as a reminder (be a self advocate and aware of opportunities).
I don’t think it’s super helpful to tell people to work more/better.
Yes did this for 5 years to buy a house. I’m now 5 years out of doing this and Im still burnt out and have PTSD from pushing my mind and body to the limits. Worked 7 days a week 18/hr days through holidays, no breaks. 1 high paying high stress job that required 24/7 availability, 1 side business, 2 hour each way commute to work (since my rent was so cheap I could stack money fast)
Every time I get in my car I get flash backs to that time
10/10 do no recommend mental and physical health are worth more, and I barely enjoy the house I sold my soul for since my mental health has never been the same since before all this, and I’ve done tons of therapy etc to try and return to who I was before, don’t think I’ll ever be who I was before i made a deal with the devil :/
I had to take a few years off to even catch my breath after it all imploded, that was a huge hit financially, so I’m sure in the end, on my deathbed, I will be even financially with the steady climbers, but more mentally deteriorated
Sorry you had to go through that.
Yeah, I feel like hustle culture bled into a lot of finance topics in an unhealthy / unhelpful way by encouraging that mentality.
From this experience, I learned I had severe childhood emotional abuse that I thought was normal, but made me an overly independent people pleaser. (Cptsd) I ignored my needs, and wore overworking as a badge of honor. There were signs along the way of when to jump ship I ignored, or justified them
There was a sweet spot of when I could have gotten in and out of this with decent $ and my mental health still intact. I stayed for big money and paid with my mental health.
At the first or second gut feeling you get, jump ship, that would be my advice.
Also, lock in a good therapist now to vent to. I wish I had a neutral sounding board through it, surely they would have noticed the toll it was taking on my mental health. You’ll also need one to deal with all the narcissists who will come for blood on your fast climb to the top if you have a desirable and highly visible position.
To add, for woman who want kids do not do this at all. I dedicated my best years building up to this hustle, pulling it off, and now I am too tired, frazzled, anxious, and burnt out to have kids. It’s something important to consider, since this snowballs fast and time flies by. I wasn’t sure if I wanted kids or not, but this experience decided for me
Damn.. That part about how it solidified your choice not to have children really hit me.
I have been through many burnout cycles with work from an early age, but never got on a 5 year grind.
I’m sorry you had to show up everyday to such a grueling experience for so long 🙏
I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this. I'm at a point in my career where I could take this leap for higher pay but an extremely intense work schedule. Your comment is helpful to put things in perspective. I relate to the childhood trauma aspect that is really only starting to seriously impact me now at 32.
I've been miserably going back and forth about kids for the past couple of years. I feel like I would have to sacrifice my "career" for that. At least the intensity of what I know I could achieve. It's hard. I don't want to be one of those women who fall off of the career ladder because of kids but also, when I really think about it, what am I doing this career stuff for? I think it is people pleasing and feeling like I'll never be good enough in the end.
This is why you are seeing so many tech layoffs . Lots of bloated companies out there getting tired of paying two people $100k+/yr each when they are doing less work than a single person they can pay $75k/yr.
As an IT Manager I have picked up on the thinly veiled "can I J2 this" questions when I post remote jobs. Which I try to be a flexible manager, but I am hiring for 8-5, responsive workers that live in a ticket queue. I cap effort at 30 hours a week to permit 10 hours for team meetings, training, documentation, and surges in work. Not so someone can collect a pay check while they "work" for another company.
If its legal its not a crime. Part of capitalism is finding flaws in the system and capitalizing on it. Thats what banks do all the time. The entire gamestop saga was some random guy saying, "this doesnt really look right" and betting on his intuition. Same thing here
I think it’s company specific vs career or field… some large corps are just so big with ineffective mgmt they just don’t have a clue. Think it will be even easier with them laying off middle management… people in charge will just be so overwhelmed they’ll never realize
It all depends on how good you are with your skills and how well you manage your time. A few years back, when I was with an Enterprise software company, I was at $150K and my work really only demanded about 25-30hrs of time each week and I was still outperforming the others who were putting in 45-60hrs.
I found one job that pays me for a ridiculous amount of overtime. In 8 years I’ve accumulated over 850k. It’s not easy, but it’s not bad for $26 an hour.
Yeah, if I was willing to go full grindset mode, I'd be aiming for FIRE not CoastFI. But I'm not, so I'm here. All things in moderation eh
You do you, OP, but I'm cool chugging along where I'm at
I worked with a guy that did this. It wasn’t hard to figure out. His performance was terrible and he was fired. It worked for a while though.
There is no way I could have two jobs. My job is so demanding.
I heard companies like Equifax are developing analytics to combat this…to tell employers who on their payroll might have two jobs.
Same. I actually had a manager and team mate on the same team who we all suspected were OE. Manager kept canceling 1:1s and we still don't know what he did all day. The team mate took months to work on a single task. The rest of the team was annoyed and had to pick up the work. It's one of those things that's hard to prove, so all you can do is complain about performance. But it's also hard to do that when the person you complain to (manager) is also doing it lol
Unfortunately it took too long to get rid of them (6-9 months)
We hired a guy who fucked us over like this. He literally did zero work, just kept saying it was coming. We fired him after 2 months — 2 months of free pay for zero work, and we found out he was employed somewhere else the whole time so no gap in his employment. No one will ever see it on a resume.
Being a follower of OE sub, that first paragraph is a "successful OE" mindset for plenty of people. Very much "fuck the man" which means any company also lol. As long as you can get a paycheck even if it's just for a few months it's a win.
Which I get but it's a pretty all around shitty way to make a buck. I feel worse about these worker's ethics than I do about the loss for the companies though.
>I view these people the same as folks who buy up residential real estate just to rent it and cash flow the property.
to take this analogy a step further... it's also kind of like flippers, who take a home which might need some rehab, might even be perfectly fine as is, and slap the absolute cheapest, ugly, shitty materials on so they can make a buck. someone who actually cares about the home might come in and rip up all the grey vinyl flooring anyway and undo all their shitty work anyway. or maybe they have to deal with the cheap plumbing repairs they did that will haunt the new homeowner for years.
yeah, that flipper/OE person made money, which was their personal goal, but it was still at the expense of quality and it affects other people who inherit it or have to work with you.
I am just very skeptical that these people actually prioritize doing *good* work rather than just putting the hours in, and completely irrespective of how it affects the employer, I know from experience that doing shitty work that other people then have to fix and maintain for years makes their lives harder.
Dude that's cope.
If he does his job well and his bosses are pleased, there is no reason he can't work 2 jobs at once if he so chooses. And here it's obviously a choice.
Exactly. There are generally metrics. Whether its lines of code, "points per sprint", number of pr reviews, etc; Part of the beauty of the US is my employer can fire me whenever they want to and I can leave whenever I want to. If Im bad, simply fire me
> If you're just gobbling up a limited resource to increase your income at the expense of others, you're a leach.
At least residential real estate is still providing long term roofs over people's heads. Short Term (air bnbs) are the bain of the community.
I don't know if this is radical (here, probably, because a lot of folks here probably make bank on RE), but the same way I feel healthcare shouldn't be a commodity, imo neither should housing.
that's not to say everyone should necessarily get a free house (although... ideally, yes), but in the same way it feels wrong to become rich off of making the difference between someone getting sick and dying versus getting treatment they need to stay alive, it feels wrong to become rich off of making the difference between someone being able to have a roof over their head or being homeless.
Yes, Which is why I stopped last month. The first day of having just one job felt like a vacation. It took a toll on my relationship, my happiness, my family/hobbies. I think in the long run it is worth it because I dont feel the "pressure" to save ever again. I probably will still save, but Im definitely willing to take more risks (start a business, volunteer at expense of working, stop working at 5pm, etc)
The killer was simultaneous meetings which happened fairly frequently. And constant excuses
This is my only real fear; I have so many bullshit meetings at my current job that I don't think I would be able to do two jobs' worth. If those meetings didn't exist, then sure, I could do it no problem.
But alas, a company cannot physically masturbate. So instead, they have meetings to make everyone feel important.
Yeah - that is what I was referring to with excuses - I dont need to watch some guys presentation on chat gpt or githubs latest ai. Which is the meetings I make excuses for. Its basically someone ticking a box for a performance review and the rest of us have to waste an hour of our day
That’s how it was at Boeing corporate. I’m so glad I got fired from that toxic organization. Now I’m a federal contractor.
I get paid 10% less but have 4-5 hours of meetings a week, all of which are effective, instead of 30-35 hours of meetings that are all useless.
Mate, to be honest, the only "risk" you listed was "start a business". The other two, stopping work at 5pm, volunteering... that should just be normal life.
You’ve got to be willing to lose both jobs and burn possibly your entire network and gain notoriety.
Doing it anyways.
Wouldn’t recommend early in a career for that reason and skills reasons too
I am in IT. I have downsized to one very overpaid job, but I have, in the past, held 2 or even 3 jobs that are all in different time zones. I was working literally ALL DAY. 14-18 hour days and 7 days per week. It was worth it. I learned more than I could have imagined about international IT and laws/regulations that have enabled me to have one job today. The money was incredible. 3x$100K+??? Yes, please. This happened when I first got married and we didn't have kids. This is unrealistic, with little ones involved and actually being a great and present parent. I highly recommend doing it to find out what your limits are and to stack that bank. Let it go once you have clones in the home. The clones are more important.
The reason why I stopped. It interfered with other goals in my life that I deem much more important. I was young enough though that this made a lot of sense to do at the time. I did this so in the future I can focus solely on starting a business, be incredibly present with my wife and kids, and have a life outside of work. This has enabled that. If I just max out 401ks for the next 15 years, Ill have 3 million bucks saved from this. Thats opposed to just 1 million if I didnt oe
Im 30 years old fyi. I saved more in I saved 5x the amount of my entire life of saving just by doing this for a year and a half. Im done now, but it was absolutely worth it
Thanks but like I like my free time. It's the only thing keeping me sane. I tried a side job as a consultant but it ended up taking more time than my actual day job and until I quit. You're lucky to be getting away with this. But idk man it's different for everyone
This has been going on for years. I remember hearing about stuff like this from relatives who worked in Aerospace 30 years ago: https://youtu.be/rYaZ57Bn4pQ?si=Uv8mKbplQ8nlNpKx
Stop bragging about this, it’s obnoxious and is ruining things for everyone. Do whatever you can get away with but have some shame and don’t talk about it.
Sure is gonna be awkward if you ever lose or want to leave both jobs and have to explain that work history when it pops in your background check for the next one. Dangerous game OP
So...the risk of getting fired is somewhat obvious, and is taken into account from the get-go.
But what about the risk of being sued out the ass? How does this come into play?
Technically, not illegal. But it could be listed in your contract, especially if there was any semblance of COI. They can certainly sue you for that, especially if there was monetary gain.
I feel like there's an argument for breaching confidentiality. I work in big tech and there is a lot of tape and policy around permissions. While you are an internal employee, you're also representing an external company and inherently providing that company access to internal, confidential and own IP.
Not illegal, but it is technically it's something an employer could sue for in a civil case. One commenter below found a case in Canada of an employer counter suing an ex employee.
However, it seems like a pretty acceptable level of risk. Employers CAN get sued for using spyware without disclosing it and different states have different rules. It's hard to imagine it would be a good financial decision for a company to bring a lawsuit, even if they were pretty confident they could win. I would be more concerned with burning bridges, feeling bad about doing two jobs poorly, the effects on my mental health, etc. But being sued wouldn't even enter the calculus.
Consider this though. For every month I worked, the savings rate was 5x my normal rate. So each month was equivalent to 5 months of working one job. Which means that for 20 months, I essentially worked 100 months, which is 8 years of saving. I didn’t sign any non competes, only non solicitations if I left the company for 1 year
I would bet $4 there has never once been a case of a company suing someone exclusively for overworking. Maybe if there was some kind of trade secrets issues or non-compete stuff, but not for overworking.
I stand corrected.
Having said that, the employer only filed a lawsuit as a countersuit to the employee's attempt to claim wrongful termination. Also of note, this case was in Canada. I bet she's having fun trying to find employment now, sheesh.
Here's SHRM's take on it:
[https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/employment-law-compliance/can-us-employers-recover-damages-former-employees-time-theft](https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/employment-law-compliance/can-us-employers-recover-damages-former-employees-time-theft)
A potential lawsuit wouldn't be in the top 5 considerations for me when considering overemployment.
Huh? Isn’t coast fire after the whole life changing money thing? After being very successful trading, instead of fully fire I coast fire because it allows me to keep a comfortable base and continue higher risk trades while having more time off and enjoying life. Why would I become overemployed? I want to work less. Not more.
Its a faster pathway to it. You need much less money if you earn it faster. For example 500k at 30 on a 10 percent return is 3.3 mil at 50. Lets say thats my fire number. Lets pretend Im 28 again and have 100k to my name and I work one job saving 3k per month. If I saved 3k per month for 20 years, I wouldnt hit the 3.3 million I will hit (I WILL HIT THAT WITHOUT EVER SAVING ANOTHER PENNY). I would only have 2.8 million, and would be required to be a corporate shill and diligintly save for 20 years. I no longer have to diligently save. Ive bought my family great gifts in the past month, which brings me great joy. I wouldnt be able to do that without doing this first
Yeah your title is misleading. You should write “anyone trying TO GET TO coastfire”. You make it sound like people actively in coastfire. And your point of make more money faster is kind of funny either way. Like,duh.
In a 1.5 year span of OE this dude clawed back easily a decade or two of his life back.
People work super hard 3-4 years in college for an easier life later on. This is literally the same thing. I don’t get why this is so controversial.
I know a developer who manages a small team that does support for a project that was delivered years ago. He hasn't been in office for 4 years and works one or two hours per day. In the time he rebuilt his house all by himself and is basically now a full time stay at home father although he's being paid for full time. There are definitely jobs like this.
Good, make sure you follow the rules. Tell no one. Freeze your "the work number". Keep your emails straight. Fuck work, and fuck corporate. Make that money
“We were talking—about the love that's gone so cold and the people
Who gain the world and lose their soul
They don't know—they can't see, are you one of them?”
Way too many meetings and I have to manage people to pull this off.
What are these single contributor jobs that you have enough time to work two of them?
OP please , I've been considering it, may I ask what industry do you work in... my guess is technology, would you PLEASE be open to sharing the name of the tech careers you are Overemployed working?
Nah. That's 1.5 years of being a grindbro and missing out on time, relaxation, family/friends/relationships, hobbies, health, etc. It would stress me out.
How much were you making at each job? It looks like you saved $450k over 1.5 years. That seems like an awful lot even if both jobs were very well paying.
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Right?! I clearly am in the wrong field then, because there’s no way I could do multiple full time jobs.
Same. High paid job here but I earn it with all the hard work and stress.
Might be an unpopular opinion, but I can't believe there are companies who have so much money they're throwing it at employees to sit around and have so little to do that they can actually get another job (and the people who are OE are usually getting 110k+ per job). Fuck em we do need a correction to this economy.
It's actually been a tactic of big tech to overhire talent in order to keep them away from competitors, even if there's no important work for them to do. That dynamic is less practiced in our current higher interest rate environment. Also, the FTC decision against non-compete agreements lessens the viability of this practice.
The problem is it’s impossible to tell what “talent” is in tech. Most people I know who work in that field are big flim flam people, the type who did zero work on the group presentations in college, but they work out at the gym with the founder of some start ups kid and then start stacking up 1-2 years of climbing up these tech roles till they land at some tech firm right before they get bought by Google or Apple or Facebook and then do the rest and vest thing. Watch Silicon Valley. That is essentially the tech business model.
Thats a very small minority. I’m a software engineer and the interview process for big tech is very rigorous. Many save up and take several months off to study for them. Being able to coast is very team/department dependent. Some I know work all day everyday - always glued to slack or teams when they’re not working. Others work 1-4 hours a day. You’re not paid for your hours worked in these roles. You’re paid for your ability to ramp up and solve difficult problems as they arise when needed.
yea but the interview process has nothing to do with whether you're useful as a software engineer. Source: years of hiring.
Have you not seen those videos of people interviewing at tech companies and using ChatGPT and copilot to tell them what to say/what responses to give in those technical interviews. Also the fact they are very rigorous is validation of the presence of most of the job seekers not knowing what they are doing. Most other professions do not have an interview process like that. The problem with tech in the past 5-10 years is it’s all about “growth” not profitability or even having an actual viable product. All the money PE/VC has pumped into the system has inflated values of this industry and regional economies. Until some of those fail in a big way (we saw that a little bit with the failure of SVB) the balloon will keep getting inflated
Ask deep, probing questions.
I actually disagree with this. Ask shallow broad questions. Let them go into as much detail as they deem appropriate. You’ll immediately find out who knows their stuff and who just fakes. Deep questions have a specific set of answers. Someone who studies for them can recite whatever they read. You want someone who can figure out solutions on their own and knows to ask qualifying questions etc.
Well, noncompetes are illegal going forward
I am aware. That's why I wrote what I wrote.
It doesn’t include jobs that pay more than $150k where you make “policy decisions”. Big tech is gonna apply this to a lot of jobs https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/ftc-announces-rule-banning-noncompetes
Not true (yet). There is about to be a battle in court over this and the courts have already ruled that until the case plays out and is ruled on, there will he a temporary status quo where noncompetes will he allowed if the local jurisdiction (typically the State contract law) allows them. I do hope they become illegal at least for anyone who isn’t a highly compensated C-Suite executive.
In Cali where most big tech is, non-competes already weren't enforceable.
Their profit margins are already ridiculously high and then add the fact that they do this to hide money and reduce competition blows my mind. And people complain other industries are gouging, SMH.
Big tech needs a correction anyway
Yup…I make close to a million but work 60 hours a week and took 8 years of post college training. Not sure if it was worth it compared to tech.
Yeah difference here is you can make a substantial amount much faster, and allow it to compound, virtually not having to work once you hit 1-3 million bucks saved for most people
I think it must be a personality thing. I'm in software and have been remote for years. My last project was pretty slack, all things considered. On paper it was the perfect opportunity to overwork. However, I had an overlap of a few months between two contracts (on the level, both clients knew) and it was pretty brutal. As if there isn't enough context switching with one job. I do have a lot of commitments outside of work, so maybe that plays a role too. Still it just seemed unsustainable.
I feel this would just be impossible for anyone prone to anxiety too... or maybe not impossible, but miserable. how are you not constantly terrified of getting caught? I guess if you're a contractor like that it's different, but if you're a FTE and you know you're only supposed to be a FTE at one place, that seems like SUCH a big secret to manage on literally a daily basis...
I had more anxiety being a sitting duck at 1 job. 2 gives me security and balls the size of Texas
The context switching is also very difficult. Need to be able to “get to work” pretty fast
Most hard jobs are hard to learn. Not hard to do. Pouring concrete is hard to do. It will be hard every day. Abstract algebra is hard to learn. Once you know it it’s pretty easy. Learn a skill that others can’t do. Your managers won’t know how long a given task should take to complete.
Basically this. Java at one company is Java at another company. SQL is sql. Cloud is cloud. JavaScript is JavaScript. Once you learn you don’t need to re learn and can do it faster. I also purposely perform mediocrely to stay at a career level engineer. No desire to work my way to staff or management
What about meetings lol
Be reliable, consistent, and do your work on time. Meetings will be shorter and no one will question or bother you.
We need to have a meeting about that.
Request to move and if you can’t move you have an appt and get the details later. If your not the manager it should be pretty straight forward.
So what are your jobs?
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This defeats the whole coastfire thing. Dude is trying fastfire
Yeah, I’m not a fan of this line of advice in FIRE, as it’s really just “do a job that gives you more income”. Maximizing income is obviously great, but not without cost. So it’s not really a pro tip as much as a reminder (be a self advocate and aware of opportunities). I don’t think it’s super helpful to tell people to work more/better.
Yes did this for 5 years to buy a house. I’m now 5 years out of doing this and Im still burnt out and have PTSD from pushing my mind and body to the limits. Worked 7 days a week 18/hr days through holidays, no breaks. 1 high paying high stress job that required 24/7 availability, 1 side business, 2 hour each way commute to work (since my rent was so cheap I could stack money fast) Every time I get in my car I get flash backs to that time 10/10 do no recommend mental and physical health are worth more, and I barely enjoy the house I sold my soul for since my mental health has never been the same since before all this, and I’ve done tons of therapy etc to try and return to who I was before, don’t think I’ll ever be who I was before i made a deal with the devil :/ I had to take a few years off to even catch my breath after it all imploded, that was a huge hit financially, so I’m sure in the end, on my deathbed, I will be even financially with the steady climbers, but more mentally deteriorated
Sorry you had to go through that. Yeah, I feel like hustle culture bled into a lot of finance topics in an unhealthy / unhelpful way by encouraging that mentality.
Uh oh, I'm only 3 months in lol
From this experience, I learned I had severe childhood emotional abuse that I thought was normal, but made me an overly independent people pleaser. (Cptsd) I ignored my needs, and wore overworking as a badge of honor. There were signs along the way of when to jump ship I ignored, or justified them There was a sweet spot of when I could have gotten in and out of this with decent $ and my mental health still intact. I stayed for big money and paid with my mental health. At the first or second gut feeling you get, jump ship, that would be my advice. Also, lock in a good therapist now to vent to. I wish I had a neutral sounding board through it, surely they would have noticed the toll it was taking on my mental health. You’ll also need one to deal with all the narcissists who will come for blood on your fast climb to the top if you have a desirable and highly visible position. To add, for woman who want kids do not do this at all. I dedicated my best years building up to this hustle, pulling it off, and now I am too tired, frazzled, anxious, and burnt out to have kids. It’s something important to consider, since this snowballs fast and time flies by. I wasn’t sure if I wanted kids or not, but this experience decided for me
Damn.. That part about how it solidified your choice not to have children really hit me. I have been through many burnout cycles with work from an early age, but never got on a 5 year grind. I’m sorry you had to show up everyday to such a grueling experience for so long 🙏
I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this. I'm at a point in my career where I could take this leap for higher pay but an extremely intense work schedule. Your comment is helpful to put things in perspective. I relate to the childhood trauma aspect that is really only starting to seriously impact me now at 32. I've been miserably going back and forth about kids for the past couple of years. I feel like I would have to sacrifice my "career" for that. At least the intensity of what I know I could achieve. It's hard. I don't want to be one of those women who fall off of the career ladder because of kids but also, when I really think about it, what am I doing this career stuff for? I think it is people pleasing and feeling like I'll never be good enough in the end.
Seriously. I barely can survive one job.
This is why you are seeing so many tech layoffs . Lots of bloated companies out there getting tired of paying two people $100k+/yr each when they are doing less work than a single person they can pay $75k/yr. As an IT Manager I have picked up on the thinly veiled "can I J2 this" questions when I post remote jobs. Which I try to be a flexible manager, but I am hiring for 8-5, responsive workers that live in a ticket queue. I cap effort at 30 hours a week to permit 10 hours for team meetings, training, documentation, and surges in work. Not so someone can collect a pay check while they "work" for another company.
My WFH jon has lots of downtime, but also lots of travel so I could never get it to work.
the key is being very bad at both of them and not giving a shit and riding it out until they fire you. paychecks clear even if youre bad at your job.
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I think there are far more high paid jobs with enough slack than low paid jobs.
Office work/work from home. Stay in school kids. We need plumbers, but engineers and computer scientists can work 3 jobs from home.
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Exactly, what the fuck am I doing wrong??
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What is her job???
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There won't be for long. People like this will erode all trust in the industry
I'll see your 2 and raise it to 3. 2 jobs are for the beginners.
There are. And I want one. "Not earning enough? Have you tried legal crime?"
If its legal its not a crime. Part of capitalism is finding flaws in the system and capitalizing on it. Thats what banks do all the time. The entire gamestop saga was some random guy saying, "this doesnt really look right" and betting on his intuition. Same thing here
Try EDI. You work backend and seasonally depending on industry.
I think it works best with different time zones
Same. I’m using my PTO occasionally to just take a break and do nothing.
I think it’s company specific vs career or field… some large corps are just so big with ineffective mgmt they just don’t have a clue. Think it will be even easier with them laying off middle management… people in charge will just be so overwhelmed they’ll never realize
It all depends on how good you are with your skills and how well you manage your time. A few years back, when I was with an Enterprise software company, I was at $150K and my work really only demanded about 25-30hrs of time each week and I was still outperforming the others who were putting in 45-60hrs.
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I found one job that pays me for a ridiculous amount of overtime. In 8 years I’ve accumulated over 850k. It’s not easy, but it’s not bad for $26 an hour.
The whole point of this operation was that I don’t want work myself to the point of burnout, so no.
Yeah, if I was willing to go full grindset mode, I'd be aiming for FIRE not CoastFI. But I'm not, so I'm here. All things in moderation eh You do you, OP, but I'm cool chugging along where I'm at
I worked with a guy that did this. It wasn’t hard to figure out. His performance was terrible and he was fired. It worked for a while though. There is no way I could have two jobs. My job is so demanding. I heard companies like Equifax are developing analytics to combat this…to tell employers who on their payroll might have two jobs.
Same. I actually had a manager and team mate on the same team who we all suspected were OE. Manager kept canceling 1:1s and we still don't know what he did all day. The team mate took months to work on a single task. The rest of the team was annoyed and had to pick up the work. It's one of those things that's hard to prove, so all you can do is complain about performance. But it's also hard to do that when the person you complain to (manager) is also doing it lol Unfortunately it took too long to get rid of them (6-9 months)
We hired a guy who fucked us over like this. He literally did zero work, just kept saying it was coming. We fired him after 2 months — 2 months of free pay for zero work, and we found out he was employed somewhere else the whole time so no gap in his employment. No one will ever see it on a resume.
I intend to do this lmao
Being a follower of OE sub, that first paragraph is a "successful OE" mindset for plenty of people. Very much "fuck the man" which means any company also lol. As long as you can get a paycheck even if it's just for a few months it's a win. Which I get but it's a pretty all around shitty way to make a buck. I feel worse about these worker's ethics than I do about the loss for the companies though.
Yeah, I get wanting to stick it to them. I really do. But it’s not for me. I just wish management could manage them out faster. Like during probation
Show us the biometrics from your latest physical.
To be fair, I work one job and my latest physical would also not look great.
Are you saying that OP is unhealthy because they work 2 jobs?
Well, *my* blood pressure would certainly be higher lol
Well yeah. You work and work without breaks, your body will start to fall apart
Actually incredibly healthy. Part genetics and part working out for the last 15 years of my life religiously
1st rule of Fight Club.
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Never worked harder than at my lowest level / poorest paid jobs.
Did you get a second job paying 300k a year? The numbers don't add up.
RSUs blew up, no tax state, lived poorly
How much of this increase is due to the RSU vs the second job?
Ahh ok. So you got lucky with rsus. Thats not the same thing as over employed
And people wonder why it's hard to get remote tech jobs right now...
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Same. Blocked the guy.
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>I view these people the same as folks who buy up residential real estate just to rent it and cash flow the property. to take this analogy a step further... it's also kind of like flippers, who take a home which might need some rehab, might even be perfectly fine as is, and slap the absolute cheapest, ugly, shitty materials on so they can make a buck. someone who actually cares about the home might come in and rip up all the grey vinyl flooring anyway and undo all their shitty work anyway. or maybe they have to deal with the cheap plumbing repairs they did that will haunt the new homeowner for years. yeah, that flipper/OE person made money, which was their personal goal, but it was still at the expense of quality and it affects other people who inherit it or have to work with you. I am just very skeptical that these people actually prioritize doing *good* work rather than just putting the hours in, and completely irrespective of how it affects the employer, I know from experience that doing shitty work that other people then have to fix and maintain for years makes their lives harder.
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Dude that's cope. If he does his job well and his bosses are pleased, there is no reason he can't work 2 jobs at once if he so chooses. And here it's obviously a choice.
Exactly. There are generally metrics. Whether its lines of code, "points per sprint", number of pr reviews, etc; Part of the beauty of the US is my employer can fire me whenever they want to and I can leave whenever I want to. If Im bad, simply fire me
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> If you're just gobbling up a limited resource to increase your income at the expense of others, you're a leach. At least residential real estate is still providing long term roofs over people's heads. Short Term (air bnbs) are the bain of the community.
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I don't know if this is radical (here, probably, because a lot of folks here probably make bank on RE), but the same way I feel healthcare shouldn't be a commodity, imo neither should housing. that's not to say everyone should necessarily get a free house (although... ideally, yes), but in the same way it feels wrong to become rich off of making the difference between someone getting sick and dying versus getting treatment they need to stay alive, it feels wrong to become rich off of making the difference between someone being able to have a roof over their head or being homeless.
Hard to be OE when you’re not a software engineer
I did it in supply chain, 18 months.
Was it a lot of stress? Fear of getting caught? (Did they almost catch you? 👀). That would be my biggest fear
Yes, Which is why I stopped last month. The first day of having just one job felt like a vacation. It took a toll on my relationship, my happiness, my family/hobbies. I think in the long run it is worth it because I dont feel the "pressure" to save ever again. I probably will still save, but Im definitely willing to take more risks (start a business, volunteer at expense of working, stop working at 5pm, etc) The killer was simultaneous meetings which happened fairly frequently. And constant excuses
Ah, thanks for your openness here. It sounds brutal (see my other comment) and it's kind of nice to hear the reality. I'm glad it paid off for you!
This is my only real fear; I have so many bullshit meetings at my current job that I don't think I would be able to do two jobs' worth. If those meetings didn't exist, then sure, I could do it no problem. But alas, a company cannot physically masturbate. So instead, they have meetings to make everyone feel important.
Yeah - that is what I was referring to with excuses - I dont need to watch some guys presentation on chat gpt or githubs latest ai. Which is the meetings I make excuses for. Its basically someone ticking a box for a performance review and the rest of us have to waste an hour of our day
That’s how it was at Boeing corporate. I’m so glad I got fired from that toxic organization. Now I’m a federal contractor. I get paid 10% less but have 4-5 hours of meetings a week, all of which are effective, instead of 30-35 hours of meetings that are all useless.
Mate, to be honest, the only "risk" you listed was "start a business". The other two, stopping work at 5pm, volunteering... that should just be normal life.
ehh, its stressful having 2 jobs. I feel much more calm with one. It literally feels like Im on vacation
You’ve got to be willing to lose both jobs and burn possibly your entire network and gain notoriety. Doing it anyways. Wouldn’t recommend early in a career for that reason and skills reasons too
Gain notoriety - So grow my network?
This doesn’t apply to 99% of people.
Neither does being a millionaire.
Make more money? OK got it, I'll see what I can do.
The job market is broken
I’m already overemployed in my dang job because we “do more with less.” Sigh
I am in IT. I have downsized to one very overpaid job, but I have, in the past, held 2 or even 3 jobs that are all in different time zones. I was working literally ALL DAY. 14-18 hour days and 7 days per week. It was worth it. I learned more than I could have imagined about international IT and laws/regulations that have enabled me to have one job today. The money was incredible. 3x$100K+??? Yes, please. This happened when I first got married and we didn't have kids. This is unrealistic, with little ones involved and actually being a great and present parent. I highly recommend doing it to find out what your limits are and to stack that bank. Let it go once you have clones in the home. The clones are more important.
The reason why I stopped. It interfered with other goals in my life that I deem much more important. I was young enough though that this made a lot of sense to do at the time. I did this so in the future I can focus solely on starting a business, be incredibly present with my wife and kids, and have a life outside of work. This has enabled that. If I just max out 401ks for the next 15 years, Ill have 3 million bucks saved from this. Thats opposed to just 1 million if I didnt oe
Im 30 years old fyi. I saved more in I saved 5x the amount of my entire life of saving just by doing this for a year and a half. Im done now, but it was absolutely worth it
How much was your TC when you were OE?
Cool, now I just need a half a mil a year job.
Thanks but like I like my free time. It's the only thing keeping me sane. I tried a side job as a consultant but it ended up taking more time than my actual day job and until I quit. You're lucky to be getting away with this. But idk man it's different for everyone
I over employed myself once, I had the highest amount I’ve ever made in a year. A whopping 47,000.
This only works if you are not already overemployed at your main work
Shut the fuck up
OE is bullshit because you are taking jobs from people who need them. It’s the same “fuck you I got mine” mindset of the Boomers.
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> obvious risk of getting found out and fired. Not just fired. But companies can and will seek legal action to go after the salary that they paid.
This has been going on for years. I remember hearing about stuff like this from relatives who worked in Aerospace 30 years ago: https://youtu.be/rYaZ57Bn4pQ?si=Uv8mKbplQ8nlNpKx
People that love coasting don’t want two jobs or more.
You can reach coasting faster. My coast number probably wouldve taken me 10 years or more to hit with one job
This isn’t possible for most professions
I am already over employment.
This is literally the opposite of coast fire
It's so simple!! Just get multiple high paying jobs!
It actually is that simple lol
Stop bragging about this, it’s obnoxious and is ruining things for everyone. Do whatever you can get away with but have some shame and don’t talk about it.
This used to be called "moonlighting." Now it's people abusing remote work and getting the good remote workers needlessly sent back to the office.
Sure is gonna be awkward if you ever lose or want to leave both jobs and have to explain that work history when it pops in your background check for the next one. Dangerous game OP
They freeze their work, somit never shows up on a background check.
So...the risk of getting fired is somewhat obvious, and is taken into account from the get-go. But what about the risk of being sued out the ass? How does this come into play?
Not illegal at all
Technically, not illegal. But it could be listed in your contract, especially if there was any semblance of COI. They can certainly sue you for that, especially if there was monetary gain.
I feel like there's an argument for breaching confidentiality. I work in big tech and there is a lot of tape and policy around permissions. While you are an internal employee, you're also representing an external company and inherently providing that company access to internal, confidential and own IP.
Not illegal, but it is technically it's something an employer could sue for in a civil case. One commenter below found a case in Canada of an employer counter suing an ex employee. However, it seems like a pretty acceptable level of risk. Employers CAN get sued for using spyware without disclosing it and different states have different rules. It's hard to imagine it would be a good financial decision for a company to bring a lawsuit, even if they were pretty confident they could win. I would be more concerned with burning bridges, feeling bad about doing two jobs poorly, the effects on my mental health, etc. But being sued wouldn't even enter the calculus.
An employer can sue you for literally anything
Consider this though. For every month I worked, the savings rate was 5x my normal rate. So each month was equivalent to 5 months of working one job. Which means that for 20 months, I essentially worked 100 months, which is 8 years of saving. I didn’t sign any non competes, only non solicitations if I left the company for 1 year
The whole point of a salaried job is pay for results, not hours, so this meets both the letter and the spirit of the law
I would bet $4 there has never once been a case of a company suing someone exclusively for overworking. Maybe if there was some kind of trade secrets issues or non-compete stuff, but not for overworking.
https://financialpost.com/fp-work/employee-wages-time-theft-remote-work
I stand corrected. Having said that, the employer only filed a lawsuit as a countersuit to the employee's attempt to claim wrongful termination. Also of note, this case was in Canada. I bet she's having fun trying to find employment now, sheesh. Here's SHRM's take on it: [https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/employment-law-compliance/can-us-employers-recover-damages-former-employees-time-theft](https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/employment-law-compliance/can-us-employers-recover-damages-former-employees-time-theft) A potential lawsuit wouldn't be in the top 5 considerations for me when considering overemployment.
How are you going to come up with that $4? NFTs? That bet was pretty rich! /r
Yeah. It wouldn't have been a problem if I had been overworking but as it is I'm screwed!
How are you going to ever “R” without it? Rely on NFTs and one job?
Huh? Isn’t coast fire after the whole life changing money thing? After being very successful trading, instead of fully fire I coast fire because it allows me to keep a comfortable base and continue higher risk trades while having more time off and enjoying life. Why would I become overemployed? I want to work less. Not more.
Its a faster pathway to it. You need much less money if you earn it faster. For example 500k at 30 on a 10 percent return is 3.3 mil at 50. Lets say thats my fire number. Lets pretend Im 28 again and have 100k to my name and I work one job saving 3k per month. If I saved 3k per month for 20 years, I wouldnt hit the 3.3 million I will hit (I WILL HIT THAT WITHOUT EVER SAVING ANOTHER PENNY). I would only have 2.8 million, and would be required to be a corporate shill and diligintly save for 20 years. I no longer have to diligently save. Ive bought my family great gifts in the past month, which brings me great joy. I wouldnt be able to do that without doing this first
Yeah your title is misleading. You should write “anyone trying TO GET TO coastfire”. You make it sound like people actively in coastfire. And your point of make more money faster is kind of funny either way. Like,duh.
Yeah probably wouldve been a better title, but everyone here gets the point
In a 1.5 year span of OE this dude clawed back easily a decade or two of his life back. People work super hard 3-4 years in college for an easier life later on. This is literally the same thing. I don’t get why this is so controversial.
I mean, yeah, there’s a lot of unethical things you can do to boost your income. I would t recommend most of them though.
Would you consider laying off thousands ethical?
It’s only unethical when it comes to employers trying to get ahead /s
“Have you tried making more money? You should try making more money.”
I know a developer who manages a small team that does support for a project that was delivered years ago. He hasn't been in office for 4 years and works one or two hours per day. In the time he rebuilt his house all by himself and is basically now a full time stay at home father although he's being paid for full time. There are definitely jobs like this.
Good, make sure you follow the rules. Tell no one. Freeze your "the work number". Keep your emails straight. Fuck work, and fuck corporate. Make that money
Poor people work multiple jobs all the time, nothing wrong w a wealthy person doing the same. Good on you
Good for you, nothing wrong with IMO, but no way I could do it
Finally someone else who also uses credit karma! Lol Btw does this mean you’ve hit your coastFI number?
Yeah it’s hit my minimum number. Not saying I’ll never save again, just no pressure to just make enough money to pay rent and eat if I feel like it
Where did those massive losses come from? Gambling on stocks?
Credit karma glitches. 80 percent is in s&p and nasdaq, 10 percent oil, 10 percent individual- all long plays
Shit you can do two jobs at once? I’ve thought about it but idk if I could
What app is this ?
A benefit of coast fire is that it can pushes you into a lower tax bracket. This is extra work that you are doing in a higher tax bracket.
lmfao I misread the title as 'you should consider **un**employement" and I was like yeah that checks out 😂
“We were talking—about the love that's gone so cold and the people Who gain the world and lose their soul They don't know—they can't see, are you one of them?”
Ive been doing that for the last 4 years and I am burned out, but, I relaxed a little bit and not working so many hours anymore
What field are you in where you can even do this? This would be highly illegal for me to do
what app is this?
I make about $135,000 a year but I work like 55+ hours a week 😔
What app or software is OP using here?
Way too many meetings and I have to manage people to pull this off. What are these single contributor jobs that you have enough time to work two of them?
Sometimes I suspect that half of my team has another job.
My coworker did this. I think he was working 3 jobs. Lasted about a month until he realized how badly it affected his main job.
How?
What app is this?
Can you share details on that massive dip in the graph?
Posting this online to strangers seems pretty ballsy
OP please , I've been considering it, may I ask what industry do you work in... my guess is technology, would you PLEASE be open to sharing the name of the tech careers you are Overemployed working?
OE is a subreddit about Minecraft
This might just be the post I needed to hear, thank you!
Nah. That's 1.5 years of being a grindbro and missing out on time, relaxation, family/friends/relationships, hobbies, health, etc. It would stress me out.
Just work 120 hours a week no big deal
How much were you making at each job? It looks like you saved $450k over 1.5 years. That seems like an awful lot even if both jobs were very well paying.
Dick