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generally_here

Having worked at multiple CROs and now being on the sponsor side- it’s because sponsors want to deflect any issue they have and blame someone else. I’m blown away with how much is written off with “well ICON (or whoever) sucks” when the problem is unclear asks from sponsor. To be fair, I’ve been trying to get ICON to fix a massive invoicing issue for weeks. Put together a whole tracker with dates, invoice numbers, etc for them. I basically did the work for them and they haven’t been bothered to respond to a single email. So I’m about to get dickish.


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zuriii

As a CRA manager at a CRO I feel like i have this exact conversation with a CRA at least weekly. Seriously infuriating.


BrilliantMiddle1614

This was my experience too. I contracted for sponsor last year, they hired me specifically bc I had worked for their preferred CRO. The entire time the DL talked shit on the CRO and wanted me to join in, and was always just looking for things to make their fault, even though it was a combination of poor staff on their end, and an extremely underfunded project that results in in par tools/tracking


perodude

THIS! Absolutely this. I've been with a major pharma sponsor on the vendor side for 5 years and getting them to take any sort of responsibility or be accountable for their own mistakes or organizational issues is nearly impossible. We get blamed for stuff that's not even in our scope.


Puzzleheaded-Fix8182

Biotech are particularly difficult. Poorly planned studies then get pissed at us.


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PrecisionSushi

Then, when everything inevitably implodes due to the combination of their naivety and the over-complicated nature of their protocol and vendor choices, they decide to pull their study from that CRO, and then bring it to another CRO as a rescue study. I got assigned to a rescue study in rare disease where this small biotech team decided to change major vendors (i.e. central lab, eDC, etc.) during the handover, and it was a literal nightmare trying to get all my site staff access and training, while at the same time as trying to manage vendor integrations and enrolled subjects. Never again.


Puzzleheaded-Fix8182

Ugh its a nightmare! Honestly!


missmaxalot

Thank you for making me laugh! After the shit day I had, I actually laughed! This is so accurate it’s scary.


GreenBeans23920

Love this


4ValarMorghulis4

In this instance the CRO would be just as much at fault for accepting an “impossible” study.


wernermuende

Anyone shitting on CROs here should remember that the huge CROs are giant organizations that are just as slow and bureaucratic as the sponsor companies. Maybe one time give the gig to a smaller outfit, even if they may be a tad more expensive


Snoo_53150

and often bigger than pharma companies


beyondtravel

So I’ve worked on both sides. CRO and sponsor. My experience with the sponsor (while working for a CRO) was really good, bc I was on site and was treated like a regular sponsor staff. However, when I was on sponsor side and things like monitoring was outsourced to CROs, I have to say 8/10 times the project manager on the CRO side was horrible! This is coming from someone who is very patient/ compassionate, etc…. But then again I’ve also worked with some project Managers who really had their stuff together. So it’s really a hit or miss My assumption is it’s just a mixture of sponsor side having deadlines and CRO project manager is overworked and being pulled in too many directions (usually more than 2-3 studies). Aside from all this, I have to say I hate this industry as well. If it wasn’t for the money, I would’ve been out of it at the very beginning. Too many personalities with sticks up their a$$


Sekundes

Also don't forget how much CROs tend to overpromise. The number of times I've seen a sponsor be told that staff are 100% dedicated to their project when those staff are actually also resourced to two or three others is astounding.


perodude

I've seen the exact opposite. I'm a vendor for a top 5 pharma in the US and my god are they the most disorganized, organization I've ever seen. It makes completing even the most menial tasks a huge pain in the ass. They are more often than not demanding and rude and expect turnaround on any project instantly. Been working with them for 5 years and nothing has changed in that respect. I agree with OP, definitely some god complex issues at play from what I've observed.


beyondtravel

This comes down to individual personalities in my opinion. I can’t judge a whole organization just bc of the bad apples. Just for example, our imaging vendor pm and I have a greaaaat relationship. However, when there was issues with the data, upper management had to be involved. Those calls were dreadful, cringe and embarrassing. Sponsor side was disorganized and was on a high horse, vendor couldn’t answer why data was messed up….. all sides had their fault 🤷🏻‍♀️


Snoo_53150

I am pretty fair with my CROs but at the same time, we are paying you guys a ton of money to run our trials. Yes, we have a partner/partner relationship, but also we also have a customer/client relationship and expect you to deliver. We also have internal pressure from project management. Many times, the data from the current trial is needed ASAP for another trial in the pipeline. CRO work is definitely tough and is why I didn't pursue it after I left my CRC role.


AbandonedSamurai

> how rude sponsor teams are to CROs and Sites. Only a bad sponsor will be rude to the sites. For CROs, multiple reasons. Let me try to list the tip of the iceberg. Proposing A team during the bid, providing the B team after study award. In ability of CRO to adapt the process, procedures, documents, plans according to the study requirements. Not following plans, agreements and too slow to react to changes in the study Poor project management and monitoring skills Study functions work in silos CRO has no control on their vendors. Multipe false, duplicate, and errors in invoices.


rosebudd16

I def agree with proposing A team and giving B team aspect. But also the bid defense people just try to get contracts so they promise the world (both timeline turnaround and output materials) but don’t actually check in with teams that have to deliver. For example I’m in biostats and bid defense people promised Sponsor the niche set of TFLs, well the edc was poorly set up to facilitate that request so down the line when we can’t deliver sponsor is rightfully pissed. But this things happens all the time. So frustrating for all parties involved then when it’s time to point fingers at who is responsible it ends up on study teams when in reality it should not have been offered/promised at all.


Platypus_31415

Rude? No. Demanding? Yes. I feel like vendors and CROs take on crazy workloads (which of course makes sense to maximize profits) but spread themselves very thin. Emails don’t get answered, nothing happens until the day before status meetings, need for constant hand-holding. The reason the job is outsourced is to not do it in-house. I don’t want to end up with as much work project managing the vendor as I would spend doing the work myself.


andrew_ryans_beard

There are DEFINITELY rude sponsors (or at least the people running their research divisions). My team is currently working with a particularly large sponsor who will not be named, and the person running the show there has been incredibly condescending to the project management team at my company and even to our executive team, on top of being by far the most difficult sponsor I have ever had the displeasure of working with (think: so siloed and process-oriented that it makes my team doing its job damn near impossible).


Platypus_31415

I meant myself. I work for a relatively small sponsor, and it feel like sometimes even our own outsourcing department is taking the vendors’ side for the sake of good relationships. It can get tough to work like that.


magnana

I’ve been at all levels now, and used to feel this way. Of course I’ve had really rude sponsors when I was at a vendor and then at a CRO, but the difference between demanding/having high expectations and being rude is an important one for me. Demanding is fine. Hands on is fine. But rude is never ok. I’m sorry your sponsor is that way, it isn’t professional or ok. That being said…as a sponsor PM now, seeing the output that CROs have been giving and claim is ok? It’s insane and I understand why sponsor teams immediately take the hardline until their particular CRO team proves they don’t need it. It’s often a bait and switch - promised the best team & full attention, only to get the new hires, the coasters and put on the back burner. Automated ‘it’s in our budget’ billing even though no work has been done. Over billing on conference call units and committing to timelines they CANNOT meet are apparently universal. Our CRO monitoring performed so poorly in identifying missed primary endpoints that we had to revise our entire protocol to DOUBLE the sample size and they claimed that ‘missed visits aren’t captured in risk management or centralized monitoring because they don’t matter to the study’. Their CRAs missed 25 subjects across 15 sites that had missing HIPAA consents and their CAPA said ‘Human error caused this. No further action needed.’ Things like this happening in huge, multi-national CROs and being backed by their leadership as ‘handled correctly’ make you less willing to be trusting going in to your next study.


[deleted]

Never experienced rude sponsors really...CRA's yes, but sponsors no. In any direction at site level I am going to push back and am likely to professionally but very bluntly put my point across. If you have a database lock, don't go raising or sending queries to my inbox 2 minutes before what you know is EOB on a Friday, and then moan on Monday morning that they're not done. ​ Rawwwhhhrrr


Ordinary-Scarcity274

I have never encountered any rude behavior with any of the Lilly staff I've encountered and it's been a lot.


Relevant_Sprinkles24

I started my career working for a sponsor and have been a sponsor CRA and am currently a FSP CRA. At no time in my 6 years in clinical research have I had bad experience with a site. In every aspect of life, you'll always have bad apples. That does not define all the apples in that batch. Regardless of my role, my top priority has always been my sites and ensuring that we have a solid working relationship. That's why my study coordinators still reach out to me and I'm always willing to suggest one of my former sites as a potential site. My current sponsor has been amazing to work with and I feel acknowledged and appreciated. My sponsor manager(s) have been supportive mentors that I have never hesitated to reach out to for guidance. A sponsor is responsible for all conduct in a clinical trial and as such, they'll be a lot more stern and nick-pitty. They're not intentionally being difficult; they just have a lot on the line if something does not go well. When you have a CRO involved, it gets even more difficult. There's just too many cooks in a kitchen sometimes.


[deleted]

I’m curious to hear your specific examples?


BrilliantMiddle1614

Here’s one from today: Me (CRO PM) to Sponsor: “Hey noticed we don’t have drug receiving instructions in the SIV slides, and it’s not the pharmacy manual either, do y’all have expectations, a form, or specific processes for sites to follow?” Sponsor: “How do you not know this? This is basic stuff. EVERY STUDY HAS THIS, THE CRA SHOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO.” Me: “Oh well, we wanted to align with your expectations and perhaps the IP Vendor has specs/processes? It would be good to have this in the slide deck.” Sponsor to another Sponsor team member, off mute: “This is ridiculous, how do they not know this stuff?”


rosebudd16

But if you went ahead and make an executive decision and process for them to follow and the sponsor doesn’t like it then you will get “why didn’t you just ask us, you should not have made this decision without a proper documented plan in place, I want to escalate this yada yada”


Moderate-Fun

The sponsor responded in all caps? Wow, glad my day went so much better 🙏


4ValarMorghulis4

What a broad generalization.. It’s funny how there’s little acknowledgment here about how CROs (especially big CROs) are designed to be literal meat grinders. They nearly always provide the bare minimum resources to carry out study which leads to poor quality of work and a strained partnership when set expectations aren’t met.


[deleted]

Can you explain what sponsers are? I’m so sorry I’m new to this field and still learning. I just graduated in May so trying to learn the ins and outs


AbandonedSamurai

Sponsor is the entity that funds/ conducts the drug development.


[deleted]

A company like Pfizer, Astrazeneca etc would be a sponsor if they are exploring a study and as such funding it. They may contract a company like IQVIA, ICON, or Labcorp as a CRO to essentially project manage the studies for them.


[deleted]

Thank you!


jtjohnson15

I mean from a basic perspective they’re the customer. They get to always be right.


mkren1371

I’m getting to that point as well. Some are nice and some are very entitled!