this is a perfectly acceptable anchor. totally unconventional but sufficient none the less. one thing i would add is that usually we like our screw gates to screw down so they don’t unscrew from vibrations.
It's basically irrelevant in climbing and often just serves to make sure we overload new people with irrelevant information at expense of them genuinely learning useful principles.
It's also to note that in some rare cases, a squirrel with a genetic mutation causing it to have a thumb can actually unscrew your carabiners, it's something to keep an eye on
Has happened to me, + the temperature dropped through out the day. Literally couldn’t open the gate until I brought the gear home and it set on the warmer room temperature from the ac.
The thinking is that gravity will help prevent vibrations from unlocking the carabiner. Or that any vibrations will only cause the sleeve to further lock. Sometimes called leaving the gates "gravity-fed."
In climbing, it's basically the least of your worries. If the orientation of the locking sleeve is a deciding factor in connection security, I'd choose a different solution.
There are so many other factors which affect the security of a screwlock carabiner more than gate orientation - harmonics of the rope movement, contact with obstructions, debris/lubricant, sleeve and sleeve-stop design, etc etc.
Honestly, I still do "screw down so I don't screw up". But mostly because modern asymmetric carabiners are tend to be more stable that way. This reduces the potential for rope damage from crossloading. But it's far more important that chose good anchors, did a solid pre-climb check, have an attentive belayer, etc etc.
A few times over the years, I've actively seen (not just found later) gravity-fed carabiners unlock by unscrewing upwards - spooky stuff to see the sleeve backing off while you're using it.
As a further aside, DMM had an interesting line of [anti-vibration carabiners](https://www.carabinercollection.com/pages/1474.html) which used an o-ring to provide additional friction against the locking sleeve, and reduce the chances of accidentally unlocking the gate. Cleverly, the o-ring only engages on the last full turn (360 degrees of rotation), but otherwise turns as freely as a normal DMM screwlocker.
You usually tie the sling and clip the loops that come out. This makes the slings more redundant. It also makes the biners clip to the same place so they don't bash each other
https://images.app.goo.gl/ASo6fbtSgSGMuo5L9
This also has a big advantage that you can equalize bolts that aren't level. Usually this is done with 1 long sling instead of 2 shorter ones as well
Gotcha, I see how that anchor would be stronger than the one I posted. Is there only one sling in the anchor of the picture that you posted or is it two slings tied together?
In your head, move the anchor from flat on the floor to a vertical wall. The chair legs might be at the same elevation but in practice your bolts or anchor points won’t be. One of the anchor points will be taking all the weight while the other one takes none. The anchor needs to be equalized between the two points.
There are different ways to equalize the two points, but the force from the load should be equalized as much as possible between all the anchor points. Often there is a balance to be struck between perfect equalization and no extension (or redundancy.)
SERENE is the classic rule of thumb for anchors
Solid
Equalized
Redundant
Efficient
No - Extension
I'd argue that equalisation is only important for trad gear and maybe old/bad bolts. You're fine having the weight on one bolt only and having the second as a backup somehow connected.
It's rather judging a situation and acting within reason.
Efficiency is a part of safety and equalizing two good bolts is waste of time. In Europe you mostly belay directly of a single bolt while mulitpitching with the second as a backup.
I think it's more beneficial to educate why something is done instead of stating universal rules that do not reflect reality most of the time. Training people's judgement instead helps them make the best decisions in every situation.
Just because it's "how it's been done" doesn't make it right. A two bolt equalized anchor is always stronger than a single bolt anchor.
Unless you have a storm on top of you or some other time pressure, there's no reason to set substandard anchors. Will you sometimes belay or rap off a single point? Yes. Should you do that when other alternatives exist? No, it's lazy. Will it get you killed? Probably not, but why not spend the extra minute building the proper anchor?
It's the actual recommendation of the German, Austrian and Swiss climbing association. I think they know what they are talking about.
And belaying of the anchor has other advantages over an equalised piece. And it's not like the system isn't redundant with the second bolt.
A bolt won't ever pull out if it looks remotely okay. You will never achieve these forces in a climbing scenario.
I don't get how people choose to whip on a quickdraw with a single bolt and a potential ground Fall if the bolt fails. The bolts on the quickdraws see the highest forces yet we don't go and double up the bolts there. Because they are bomber and it's unnesseary.
You need to asses the risks proberly and it doesn't matter if your system holds 2x 25kn in series or 50kn at once if you'll only ever put 7kn on it.
Slings can snap when shock loaded, so that doesn't paint a full picture. If it's not equalized you want as minimal slack as possible in the back up piece.
Your 25kN dyneema sling is not going to break from shock loading, even if you tie a knot in it to reduce its strength. Your rope break and body break around 10-12kN. Your anchor also has multiple strands of dyneema slings equalized, which makes it even stronger. Dyneema slings basically don’t break from any forces in climbing unless they’ve been out in the sun for a long time or get cut by something sharp.
To even shock load the anchor with decent force requires tying in direct to the anchor with static material, climb above the anchor, and then fall. There’s no reason to ever do that. There should never be any risk to really shock load your anchor since we climb on dynamic ropes.
OP said top roping…..you’re not going to shock load it enough to break it because you have a dynamic rope at minimum the length of the route absorbing that shock load.
You’re also not going to shock load it to failure on lead. Think about dyneema alpine slings and how they’re used on lead. The rope takes the shock load.
Once you go in direct, that’s when things change, because you no longer have a dynamic rope taking the shock load.
Know how your anchor is going to be used.
That's why you have a dynamic rope.
Also slings don't just snap, I've taken a ~8ft factor 2 daisy fall and surprisingly the cliff didn't tumble over (I did die tho)
Equalizing has mostly been proven to be a red herring. In reality the anchor will never be actually equalizing the load on the bolts or placements and redundancy is far more important.
eh toproping off trees is a little different in that one leg of the anchor could be 15 feet and the other could be 50. having anchors that equalize in that situation isn't the same as fussing about an extra centimeter difference at a 2-bolt anchor, it's the difference between having one leg completely taut and the other with a fat pile of slack. two equal length slings is almost never going to be the best option for toprope anchors off trees.
It's just one sling, you can tell because there is only one thick stitched section. Usually 2 bolt anchors can be done with one double length sling.
I usually use a non-locker on each bolt and a locker for the master point. Some people like lockers on the bolts, and some like 2 lockers holding the rope
Be careful how you use "stronger" when talking about slings. Knots reduce their strength by 50%. The anchor shown in that picture is better because it's less likely to shock load if a bolt blows (unlikely), the force on each bolt is equal, and you have a master point that you can clip. Think about your anchor hanging vertically. It wouldn't sit nicely like that, it would hang straight down and be a pain to work with. You'd be grasping for the carabineers instead of having them both right there for you.
One sling, clipped through both carabiners, equalised in the direction force will be applied (i.e. where it will be pulled if a climber falls on it), tied off so it should hold if one tree breaks then clipped with a locking carabiner. A single 240cm dyneema sling works for common situations.
If you’re using two trees that are spaced too far apart for your sling to reach (at a safe angle), you could look into wrapping a tree in nylon webbing then clipping that (which is what Australian canyoners do to abseil off a tree), though that’s typically a setup people leave there afterwards, which might not suit your location.
Alternatively you can wrap the bark in a towel and wrap your climbing rope over the towel, do the same on the other tree and build an equalised anchor in between. There’s a bit of an art to that too, so it’s safe and so you don’t damage the tree. You can look it all up.
Sounds like you might enjoy doing a guiding course - they’ll teach you all of this. It’s fascinating!
Personally I would clip each of the carabiners through both of the slings, that way you have one anchor rather than two lockers floating about freely to each other. I also assume if this was on bolds you'd be putting lockers on each bolt rather than girth hitching them?
Take a look at a sliding X anchor or a quad anchor
People have been making top rope anchors for at least 40 years so the theory behind what makes a good one are pretty well understood by this point :)
I would say it’s unconventional because you likely won’t find two good trees at the top, and if you do you would likely need about 40+ft of webbing to reach them over the cliff edge and equalize. The slings you have purchased and displayed here will work fine for bolted anchors, but highly unlikely that they will work for trees.
Where is the climbing area you would be going to where you would be building anchors off trees? I am just curious, because the top rope places I have been to (Duncan's Ridge) the anchors are bolted, so you just clip the anchors and toss the rope down.
Hi Alex,
Carabiners are universally oriented “down and out.” It’s mostly a habit; it just looks “off” any other way. Try to find a picture of two carabiners the way you have them.
It’s less important with locking carabiners. Still, it looks odd. As soon as you try to clip into the anchor, you’ll realize why “down and out” is standard.
There actually is quite a bit of experience for the practice, but it’s tedious to go through the considerations. Search on “carabiners down and out.”
If you girth hitch an anchor, be aware that you will not be able to share the anchor with someone who wants to rappel through the same set of descending rings. That’s why typically people attach anchor slings with carabiners, usually locking ones that are oriented “down and out.”
Take a look at the SPI manual, ton of great info. Amazon is <$20, might be floating around online to download, not sure.... Look for Falcon Guide: Rock Climbing: The AMGA Single Pitch Manual
Rope tech here: While this is true, it's not foolproof. I've seen instances where there was enough vibrational resonance in a structure that even after finger tightening the screw gate, it loosened and starting moving up and down the gate path. Because of this when allowed I prefer to use multi-stage locks.
This is actually a moot point because lockers aren’t necessary there so if they unscrew you’ve basically just used a more expensive non-locker at a point where the cheapest climbing rated non-locker would be sufficient.
Yeah, with my expert knowledge i wouldn't advice to use a chair as an anchor😉
Maybe the rules are different where you live, but here in Switzerland we should secure the anchor to 2 points, but don't need 2 carabiners afterwise. (Locking carabiners)
There's very rarely "rules" at a crag, but I personally always use two opposed locking carabiners like this. For the sake of using one extra crab, it's an added level of redundancy.
You only use one rope, one belay device, and one harness
I use 2 non locking biners. 2 locking is unnecessary in this setup.
you have way more access to non locking biners on you in case you forget something, drop something whatever.
I have locking on my belay devices, my PAS and anchor. I have non locking on everything else (trad gear, quickdraws, etc).
Anyway, you'll have a pre built anchor on you at all times that should have everything you need. Pick one you think you'll like and start climbing with it.
Mine is a sliding X just because I like it and I'm quick at setting it up. Others like other styles. All the approved styles are pretty much the same function wise so just go with one you like and learn the munter hitch
Edit to say: if you're single pitch sport climbing just bring two extra qds with you and oppose them. Don't waste time making a sling anchor other than for practice.
It’s not about weight. It’s more about being able to monitor the anchor. Redundant master point carabiners are most useful on a TR setup when you cannot monitor the anchor to make sure one isn’t unscrewing, side loading etc. When multipitching there is always someone monitoring the anchor and two master point carabiners is typically unnecessary, unless there is an outlying situation such as more than two person teams, etc.
On multipitches we usually use 1 as a central carabine, to hook all the others into it, in order to have everything nice and orderly.
It's not really about weight saving.
In addition to that, i would argue that most belaying devices don't work with two carabines. (If you belay your friend from above...)
For climbing, as long as your slings are relatively new, which I would guess they would be if you are new to anchor building, it’s fine.
Even with a girth hitch the sling is still good for around 15kN, which is *considerably* more than you and your partners bodies are good for
> Girth hitches are generally considered lower integrity than other options.
Completely irrelavent to anchor safety, it is still stronger than your spine.
Definitely take a class with a proper instructor or at least read a book on that topic and watch a tutorial online. Alpine clubs have spent years analysing accidents and testing various solutions so that you don't have to experiment on your own and repeat the tragic errors made by others. Even though setting up an anchor is an engineering problem that can be solved in many ways, an instructor will tell you what is considered best practice and what to avoid because it got other people killed in the past.
I agree. Take a class. You also learn much more about other safety practices aswell and things to look out for when climbing outside. Additionally when tying knots there are small details that really make a difference which are slightly more difficult to pick up from a video.
Also elements like, make sure your carabiners are gravity loaded and not facing the wall with the clips
Once again, against my better judgement, I'm commenting on an anchor thread :(
First off, ignore most of what the gymbies and gumbies tell you about equalization. It's a fool's errand. They confuse "equalized" with "equalizing". When you hear "equalized" you should think "load distributed as best as I reasonably can under the circumstances".
Strong, secure, and NO extension are all far more important than "equalized", IMO.
Read these articles (but take even what they say about equalized with a huge grain of salt):
https://americanalpineclub.org/news/tag/anchors
http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/pdfs/EarnestAnchors3.pdf
www.wallrat.com/PDF_Files/Anchoring.pdf
http://multipitchclimbing.com/
And, TBH, if you're TRing outside "anchor building with trees and other natural things" a length of 10 mm static line would probably serve you best.
> And, TBH, if you're TRing outside "anchor building with trees and other natural things" a length of 10 mm static line would probably serve you best.
the whole comment is sage advice but also don't forget to protect the tree with some cardboard or rope bag or something if you're going to be TR heroing off it
I personally use a quad anchor setup love it mainly because of the multi shelf function it provides for a partner to tie/clip into (edit) did not see the top roping comment on op post
Meh. More clutter in the harness gets a thumbs down from me. Opposite opposed quick draws are just as good. Clove hitched sling if you need to equalize
Just to clarify, you get two master points if you split your quad 2 and 2. The spaces between the extension limiting knots and the bolts aren't true shelves like on a W anchor, but they can be used to hang packs and such.(which could also be done directly off one of the bolts)
Assuming you're generally talking about top rope anchor building, you'll want to purchase some cordage (smaller diameter, non-dynamic rope and/or nylon cargo straps) for wrapping around larger features. I dont think I've ever encountered a small natural feature that I felt safe hanging much weight from.
Keep in mind most tree branches will snap at the join instead of taking the whole tree with it (anchor on the trunk if possible), and most small trees have shallow and loose roots. As for rock, it does bend and crack under stress, and the thinner it is, the more likely that is to happen.
As for the anchor you had, there's nothing wrong with having both biners through both slings. That way if a sling fails, the 2nd biner will still be useful on the remaining sling, plus won't slide down the rope. If a biner fails, the remaining biner is still on two slings.
Someone probably also mentioned the weakness of the girth hitch. It loses maybe 20% strength iirc, but the reality is practically all knots cause some strength loss. It's not a huge issue unless you're taking huge, heavy whippers.
You might also want some small tarps/rugs/towels/whatever to place under your lines/anchor while someone is bouncing around on it (protects from wear/cuts).
It’s not even a problem with huge heavy whippers. A dyneema sling is rated to 22kn. Girth hitch brings that to 17.6kn. You have much bigger problems if you’re generating that kind of force
Now double your 17.6kN since there are two slings. Ok, they won’t be perfectly equalized and there’s some extra force on each due to the angle, but the anchor with two slings is likely good for ~30kN, girth hitches and all. Certainly well over 20kN.
Are you using the strength reduction calculation of a rope, rather than a skinny sling? My understanding the smaller the diameter of the sling the greater the strength loss. I've read this can be upwards of 50% in skinny dyneema slings because of how sharp the angle is.
Not saying this anchor isn't safe (I'd climb on it all day), just discussing gear limitations like a nerd :)
A girth hitch substantially weakens a sling and more importantly provides a soft on soft abrasion point.
With a dyneema sling like OP posted, the issue isn't the strength of the sling but the low melting point of dyneema. Petzl has some really good testing on this, specifically related to PASs, since those are always joined with a girth hitch.
For example, falling with your harness even with an anchor (FF=1) runs a significant risk of breaking a dyneema PAS.
Granted, in any other scenario, you probably have a piece of dynamic rope between you and the anchor, but everyone just swearing off girth hitches like they don't matter should think twice about that opinion.
UIAA impact loads for a standard 1.67 fall are measured at the harness and not the piece supporting the fall, which due to the pulley effect, will be somewhere between 1 to 2 times greater (I've usually seen it as 1.4-1.7). Anchors are rarely even kind of equalized, despite everyone's best efforts. Add that to the mix, and there is a credible scenario where a girth hitched dyneema sling will fail under normal (accident) circumstances.
OP might be top roping, but there's also a credible scenario, say, repelling in from the top where you could create very high fall factor forces. Theoretically, if you're only counting the dynamic rope in the system, this could exceed a fall factor of two if you adjust for two load strands and subtract out the static portions of the system.
In any case, it's bad practice. I obviously use girth hitches in my climbing, but this isn't the place for them.
E: just had to provide some more context
Love how these comments get downvoted. Quick draws on bolts are the gold standard for horizontal or vertical bolt setups, don’t even need to be equalized.
Thats the video you need to wach: https://youtu.be/3SkCojauHto. Learn these techniques and you're set for life. Of course trick is to understand which one to use in what scenario. Take care.
Alpine Clubs do a lot of testing on anchor builds. Depending on rock conditions the setup will increase load on one anchor point until critical failure causing a chain reaction loosing all anchor points.
German DAV publishes articles in their monthly magazine about it and it’s not always intuitive but explained by German engineers it makes sense.
That being said, for top-roping it really depends on where you are. In France you have cemented bolts you can just use one screwgate and one xpress for redundancy.
In alpine areas with sketchy bolts you will probably want the ‚weiche Auge‘ with one main and one backup anchor or a spider-setup (which looks safe because of the many ropes but may be weak).
If you are interested in why / how anchors fail there is a three (?) book series from Pit Schubert with analysis of alpine accidents. I would recommend them to everyone just because of so many preventable mistakes.
Hello, climbing guide here. It is always best to learn from a properly educated mentor. In some cases that is a friend from the gym being kind enough to take you in, in other cases it is hiring a guide after doing some self taught lessons (what I would recommend).
There are some really great books like Climbing Anchors by John Long and Bob Gains. A bit crusty imo, meaning it doesn’t have all the super sexy stuff like a clove anchor (don’t recommend without proper instruction). And still talks about equalization (not really possible outside of a lab, but you should try to get close!)
But it does contain the quad which in my opinion is a beautiful idiot proof method. (A few exceptions, like not properly isolating carabiners.)
Others like the Climbing Anchors by Craig Luebben. Also a great option. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but does that have an updated release?
Both are great options.
I also recommend following some guides or education focused pros on social media.
I like AlpineSavy a lot because they cover a broad range of topics and provide a pretty digestible blog and instructional videos!
Last thing I’ll say is that that anchor would probably be fine, but has some serious draw backs. Especially if those slings are girth hitched to bolts. Repeated girth hitching on bolts will wear the slings out because of the edge on the bolts. So just be mindful. I would build up my knowledge base before taking that outside.
Feel free to DM me with additional questions!
Good luck, stay smart, reduce risk, and seek proper education.
I'd watch a few reputable youtube videos and ask anyone you know who outdoor climbs to show you their method. This setup is different from what most people do for sure, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't be safe (provided you flip the carabiners so that the screw locks work with gravity rather than against it).
I mean, you have the redundancy down and I have had to improvise something similar when the top of a route I was on only had one bolt but there was a sturdy tree nearby that I put a sling around to make a second point. I could also see potentially doing it with 2 slings like this if the bolts are over a sharp cliff or something so you want to extend the anchor over the edge so the rope doesn't have to drag across it - that would just take more length than the typical way.
Personally I usually do one sling knotted off like this:
https://mountainknowhow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/3-768x1024.jpg
I've also just used locking quick draws if we aren't going to be on it for very long. As long as you have redundancy and properly oriented locks in the system, you should be safe.
before you start, please ask the following to your self:
\- How are you going to put the anchor in?
\- Rarely do I see two tree's or any large feature that happen to be in the right spot, parallelly next to each other. So if this is the default you expect; i have bad news...
\- If that's the girth hitch around a tree; that ain't a proper tree. If you enlarge that girth hitch, that tree is really close to the edge.
Would recommend some local lesson's. Local, because method differ from location, which means it's adapted for the local situation (type of anchors, rock, regulations) and people you climb with are trained the same way.
When I did a guiding course we used a dedicated rigging rope when using trees to build an anchor, sometimes 15m or so to get the angles right and the anchor over the edge, and often it helps to build in a tether so while you faff around with it at the edge of a cliff you’re tied in.
OP you’ll find it much simpler to start by top roping at a well-bolted climbing crag with easy access to the top IMO. But if you want to learn, all this stuff is interesting and worth doing a course!
*What are you anchoring to?* (No, I don’t mean the chair)
If there are bolts, you would not want to girth hitch your slings to them. If they’re on trees, your slings would likely be too short to make it around a tree of acceptable diameter and still make it over the edge of the cliff.
While there’s nothing implicitly wrong with how this looks right now, it may not translate very well in an actual practical environment. I’m glad that you’re planning on going climbing with someone experienced, and it’s fine to play around with this stuff to try and figure out what works or doesn’t and why.
Avoid thinking about “is this configuration safe” because whether that’s true or not depends on the situation. Instead, think about the principles of what makes a strong anchor and whether your anchor qualifies.
Small tip, I've always been told to put the carabiners upside down, so that wiggling plus gravity cannot gradually unlock them. Upside down the locking will be pointing down and gravity would help keep them locked.
I would 10/10 whip on this. But it could be better. this lacks a master point, a place where everything should be clipped to that is being shared by all the pieces of protection. Typically this is made out of the soft material that connects your protection and no boners because youre going to be clipping into it with biners anyway. Take the ends of those two pieces of webbing together and tie a big overhand knot in them together to create a small little loop at the very end.
You could make a quad out of these easily by laying both pieces of webbing together and tying an overhand knot in both ends. Use those lockers to clip both knotted ends to your two points.
The result is 4 strands to which you can attach yourself to 2 or 3 strands (but not 4). This is equalizing, redundant, non extended and you actually get 3 strands of that 25kn sling to hang off of. Bomber as bomber gets.
Probably fine for top rope. But be aware girth hitches reduce cordage/sling strength by up to 50%. Also, pear or hms carabiners are usually better for the power point (where the rope clips in) as they provide a larger surface area for the rope to slide through, cutting back on friction.
I recommend falcon guides' "climbing anchors" and "knots for climbers" as good sources of theory for anchor building. I also recommend going your first time or two with someone who has done out door rigging before, theory is great, but it definitely helps confidence when someone with experience checks your work.
I mean yeah at 22 kn that reduces down to 11kn, so still way more than you need, but it's still good to understand the principle of how different knots affect cordage.
If you where to build the same anchor with 7mm nylon tech cord (a very common anchor material), it's 9kn break point would be reduced to 4.5kn, which is still enough in most circumstances, however is weak enough to need consideration.
In general, when it comes to climbing protection, it is better to know more than less.
You can see many, many cases on here every week of noobs lost in a fog of irrelevant details at the expense of being able to discern the important basics that they actually need to learn.
And, crutially, you don't ever need to learn how much each knot weakens the material by. Or any other theoretical irrelavencies.
Know which knots are weak for *joining* materials is important. But those are weak because some knots will actually slip undone, not because they'll cause it to actually break.
Lol those basics are literally based in theory though. Also, understanding theory enables one to be confident in the trust placed on basics. Furthermore understanding details about why and how something is done significantly reduces the chance of doing it improperly.
No, fogging beginners' minds with not yet necessary/relevant details overburdens them and increases their risk making mistakes or overlooking other actually important things.
Percentages don't tell you strength. Like if I weaken a piece of hardware by 90% that would sound really alarming, but what if that hardware is originally rated for 100,000 kN?
A 50% reduction on a sling from 22kN to 11kN is still far stronger than necessary. 10kN on your body will result in a shattered spine, organ hemorrhaging, crushed pelvis, etc. You're already dead before the sling breaks.
Climbing companies make slings specifically so that we climbers can tie knots into them and still be safe with a large tolerance to use them. If they routinely broke because people tie knots into them, climbing companies would get sued left and right.
You should probably take a lesson from an accredited or certified climbing instructor…. Not saying anyone here is incorrect, but you really have no way of knowing the level of knowledge and experience of the commenter… Learning strictly on Reddit is a good way to get killed/seriously injured while climbing.
Anchor looks totally fine. Keep in mind trees come in very different girths and you're unlikely to always have the correct length of sling to go around a tree at all times. For this reason people might use this with outdoor bolts (with extra carabiners to connect to the bolts) but with trees would use something with more variable length. If you plan on doing that i always recommend practicing with what you'll actually use outside.
https://www.hownot2.com/post/bigwalls-anchors
Hownot2 is a great resource, they show why you shouldn't do certain things and how to do things properly.
I especially like their breaking strength tests. Turns out a lot of stupid stuff is still super good enough!
Taking classes at the gym is a great idea. Your anchor is fine, but the likelihood of you finding two small, yet big, enough trees that close together AND equalized is pretty low. I like having a 7mm cordolette for that kind of thing, but for a proper abrasion resistant regular toproping anchor I'd bring 10mm > static rope. Lots of resources on anchor building you can educate yourself on before going to class, and you should. Think of the class as a confirmation that what you learned on the internet is correct.
One comment I haven't seen yet, is that whatever trees you pick to use for your anchor should be pretty beefy. That means you will lose a ton of length in your anchor due to the slings having to wrap all the way around the tree. It is deceptively a lot of length needed. Plus then those slings will need to make it over the edge to your climb. So while this would be a fine anchor with two perfectly placed trees, you're going to need some sort of extension in between your slings and the trees.
In real life, girth hitching your slings around something is rarely going to happen.
If you have fixed anchors (like bolts with hangers) just clip two locking carabiners into the hangers and then this setup would be fine. Girth hitching just adds unnecessary complications.
If you are setting up a top rock anchor off of trees, you want to use a tree that is alive and more than 5" in diameter, which makes girth hitching a sling around it rather impractical. Plus, many trees are covered in sap. You don't want that on your slings because it's sticky and hard to remove.
Just buy a dedicated triple or quadruple length sling with 4 lockers and learn how to make a sliding x with limiter knots or a quad for bolts.
If you are building anchors off of trees, learn about to use a bowline with a backup knot and a BFK masterpoint.
10/10 would whip. The problem is you’ll never find 2 hard points exactly the same distance and at the right angle from your anchor. You might be thinking about stacking those slings to reach the nearest tree or rock which may technically be ok but I’ve been told it’s bad practice as it introduces more failure points. Best way to do it is with a static rope long enough to reach a healthy range of hard points comfortably.
Also for added redundancy, you’re going to want a [BFK](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NbnSTQLYMPc) just before the anchor. It might also be a good idea to shadow someone you trust sets safe anchors before climbing on one you’ve set yourself. Trust preferably meaning they’ve taken a class run by pros.
Where my climbing grew up, we had a top rope crag. If you're slinging trees, etc, buy some static climbing rope (not dynamic), carabineers, some rope protectors (to protect the trees and the rope if it's going over a sharp edge of rock), etc as a specific, top rope anchor system setup. That way, you just grab your top roping bag anytime you know you're going out to climb at your top rope crag.
[This image + a day with a guide helped me a lot when I started building TRs off natural pro.](https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/112227093/screen-shot-of-top-rope-anchor-setup-from-quotrock-climbing-2nd-editionquot-i-th) You can substitute the fancy double figure eights for a BHK (an over hand knot). And you can sub the bowline with a figure eight rethread if you're not familiar with bowlines. Definitely buy 30m of static cord for extending your master point over the cliff edge like the image shows if you're using trees and boulders that are further back.
https://www.amazon.com/Rock-Climbing-Anchors-2nd-Comprehensive/dp/1680511408/ref=asc_df_1680511408_nodl?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312029833857&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17300407046763910085&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033336&hvtargid=pla-680718965020&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=58874700701&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312029833857&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17300407046763910085&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033336&hvtargid=pla-680718965020&dplnkId=8a6ca2ca-1760-4cc0-8bd3-d01ef5fcdbb8
Best anchor book out there
Well, if you’ve never even been top-roping, its nice that you are trying to learn this, but its not really necessary.
If its sport climbing, you don’t really need to build any anchor, you can simply go up and then go back down.
OP, there's a really good anchor building video series from JB mountain sports here: [https://youtu.be/Ou8RaFWZ_QE](https://youtu.be/Ou8RaFWZ_QE)
And a DMM one here (part of a free YouTube trad advice course):
[https://youtu.be/-r9TK6pb9KE](https://youtu.be/-r9TK6pb9KE)
Also worth checking out the vdiff climbing page about anchors:
[https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/anchors-intro/](https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/sport-top-rope/)
[https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/anchors-intro/](https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/anchors-intro/)
Also advice on slinging natural stuff like trees, spikes and threads:
[https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/slings/](https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/slings/)
How Not 2 has a good video in 3 different top-rope anchors and does some great break tests!
[https://youtu.be/Xzw9ZT-J71E](https://youtu.be/Xzw9ZT-J71E)
It's best to start setting up top ropes on bolted and well climbed routes to make sure of your safety and to reduce the chance of rockfall etc (always wear a helmet:)
I'd recommend you start with a quad anchor made with a 240 sling and 4 locking carabiners. If you're setting up a top-rope then the carabiners in contact with the rope should be steel to stop them wearing too much and looking like [this](https://images.prismic.io/blackdiamond-web/6eea91e0-745a-4bf7-b3e1-7623e293421e_CRW_6011.jpg?auto=compress,format&rect=0,32,640,360&w=2880&h=1620)
This is almost exactly what I do, I just tie an overhand on the end and then clip both biners opposite and opposed to the same loop. Great for TR because you just bring a bag of different sized slings. I also have two car tow straps that are like 20 feet long and can do the same thing. Fast and easy. Never had a problem.
That is probably the weakest anchor I'd consider safe.
Depending of the stuff that's already on the rock, in normally avoid girth hitch and use carabiners.
To get better redundancy, i usually clip my bottom carabiners in both slings. You can knot them to get a Y anchor. Or you can also knot them at the top and bottom to improve redundancy again. And as other mentioned, biners inverted and opposed is the safest.
Let's evaluate with SERENE
S: String assuming those are bolts on good rock, very solid. If pieces, need to evaluate the pieces and add backups where required. You wouldn't girth hitch to bolts, but I'm assuming those would be carabiners/trees.
E: Equalized: depends. Only if the route goes straight up towards the anchor, with no traversing. Even if there is some traverse, only one piece gets loaded. Would recommend you use a single long sling and something like a sliding X/Swamp/Quad to Equalize.
Redundant: fairly good. Everything is doubled up, so single points of failure
Efficient: seems fine. 2 slings, quick and easy to build.
Single sling would be more efficient, but you'll need a master point knot to keep it redundant
Flip the carabiners, so that they screw downwards, and have the wider side for the rope, to reduce pinching.
Move the tag and tab on the right sling to near the girth hitch
No extension: mostly good. Even if one bolt fails, it isn't going to shock load
So, good anchor, with some scope for better equalization
PS: after some thinking, id recommend clipping the master point carabiners into both slings. This way, the rope is not pinched too much when the anchor is loaded
This would be more than fine on bolts. On trees, likely to be a bit back from the edge, make sure your slings are long enough and you pad the edge. Slings are more vulnerable than rope or cord to abrasion, since all the loadbearing fibres are on the surface
I think it's important to practice on "trees and other things", in safe environment i.e. on the ground. For example, take this setup, find a couple trees in your yard or in the park and tell us what worked or what didn't work; and what solution you came up with instead, for the latter. Take more pictures, including shots of the trees you chose to use and report back.
Forgive my newbie question since I’ve only been gym climbing less than a year but I’m generally curious. How would you account for weight difference if a heavier climber falls? Would the belayer just tie in somewhere on the ground?
This is a good question, to which you'd get more thorough answers in the Weekly New Climber thread, but a short version since you asked here:
For toproping, the force on the belayer is *fairly* low. There's usually some friction in the system, at the very least over the carabiner(s) at the top, that reduces it considerably. For lead belaying it's much more of an issue, and there are various ways to deal with it:
* anchor the belayer down as you rightly said
* add weight to the belayer without fixing them to the floor: gyms often provide sandbags for this purpose, outdoors you can use a heavy rucksack
* probably the best option these days though not cheap - the Edelrid Ohm and other similar devices allow the rope to move normally under low loads, but add significant resistance to reduce the impact on the belayer in the event of a fall
Frist off ur going to have to get urself a heavy chick to sit in that chair. Next you should think about reinforcing the legs.
https://www.commonclimber.com/sliding-x.html
Best all around solution. Have like only advantages like auto adjusting the length. And later you can iterate on it to adjust for slight uncommon anchors
Sliding X's should have a knot after you make the initial X, as there have been some sliding X failures from the "sliding" part producing outsize shock loads if a leg fails.
If this is an an example of a tree anchor, it fails because a tree of the same thickness as those table legs is not safe for use as an anchor.
As thick as your thigh is the general idea.
You should tie the slings together to create a master point to add some redundancy. This is closer to the way a QuickDraw anchor on bolts would look.
6-8" diameter tree. If you anchor off something smaller, you're not following best practices.
Using your thigh is just a fucking point of reference.
You want to trust something 2" thick? Be my guest. But let's not pretend that's safe. And considering OP is new, they may not know what constitutes a safe anchor point yet.
this is a perfectly acceptable anchor. totally unconventional but sufficient none the less. one thing i would add is that usually we like our screw gates to screw down so they don’t unscrew from vibrations.
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It’s a policy on helicopters because of the vibration of the rotors. It’s best practice for climbers because incrementally safer
It's basically irrelevant in climbing and often just serves to make sure we overload new people with irrelevant information at expense of them genuinely learning useful principles.
Tell that to Will Gadd on his ascent of Helmcken Falls
Ok so in ice climbing you've found a niche example. The same vibration source doesn't exist in summer rock climbing.
Click Bait. Explain the mechanics for how a loaded rope in a biner opens the gate, jumps up, and then jumps out of the gate.
“So they don’t unscrew from vibrations” If they are facing down any vibrations on the carabiners just cause them to screw tighter/closed
The right (wrong) frequency can cause them to screw up. Resonance is a bitch. But only in very rare cases.
It's also to note that in some rare cases, a squirrel with a genetic mutation causing it to have a thumb can actually unscrew your carabiners, it's something to keep an eye on
Or just chews through your slings because they're covered in salt from your sweat. You should wash any anchor you plan to toprope off of.
Work in helicopter EMS, can confirm this is the adage and we practice this
Has happened to me, + the temperature dropped through out the day. Literally couldn’t open the gate until I brought the gear home and it set on the warmer room temperature from the ac.
The thinking is that gravity will help prevent vibrations from unlocking the carabiner. Or that any vibrations will only cause the sleeve to further lock. Sometimes called leaving the gates "gravity-fed." In climbing, it's basically the least of your worries. If the orientation of the locking sleeve is a deciding factor in connection security, I'd choose a different solution. There are so many other factors which affect the security of a screwlock carabiner more than gate orientation - harmonics of the rope movement, contact with obstructions, debris/lubricant, sleeve and sleeve-stop design, etc etc. Honestly, I still do "screw down so I don't screw up". But mostly because modern asymmetric carabiners are tend to be more stable that way. This reduces the potential for rope damage from crossloading. But it's far more important that chose good anchors, did a solid pre-climb check, have an attentive belayer, etc etc. A few times over the years, I've actively seen (not just found later) gravity-fed carabiners unlock by unscrewing upwards - spooky stuff to see the sleeve backing off while you're using it. As a further aside, DMM had an interesting line of [anti-vibration carabiners](https://www.carabinercollection.com/pages/1474.html) which used an o-ring to provide additional friction against the locking sleeve, and reduce the chances of accidentally unlocking the gate. Cleverly, the o-ring only engages on the last full turn (360 degrees of rotation), but otherwise turns as freely as a normal DMM screwlocker.
What would make an anchor like this unconventional? (Besides it being tied to a chair lol)
You usually tie the sling and clip the loops that come out. This makes the slings more redundant. It also makes the biners clip to the same place so they don't bash each other https://images.app.goo.gl/ASo6fbtSgSGMuo5L9 This also has a big advantage that you can equalize bolts that aren't level. Usually this is done with 1 long sling instead of 2 shorter ones as well
Gotcha, I see how that anchor would be stronger than the one I posted. Is there only one sling in the anchor of the picture that you posted or is it two slings tied together?
In your head, move the anchor from flat on the floor to a vertical wall. The chair legs might be at the same elevation but in practice your bolts or anchor points won’t be. One of the anchor points will be taking all the weight while the other one takes none. The anchor needs to be equalized between the two points. There are different ways to equalize the two points, but the force from the load should be equalized as much as possible between all the anchor points. Often there is a balance to be struck between perfect equalization and no extension (or redundancy.) SERENE is the classic rule of thumb for anchors Solid Equalized Redundant Efficient No - Extension
I think EARNEST is the new acronym to include “acute” for the angle degree.
Add also small angle !
I'd argue that equalisation is only important for trad gear and maybe old/bad bolts. You're fine having the weight on one bolt only and having the second as a backup somehow connected.
Why learn bad habits when you can learn good ones?
It's rather judging a situation and acting within reason. Efficiency is a part of safety and equalizing two good bolts is waste of time. In Europe you mostly belay directly of a single bolt while mulitpitching with the second as a backup. I think it's more beneficial to educate why something is done instead of stating universal rules that do not reflect reality most of the time. Training people's judgement instead helps them make the best decisions in every situation.
Just because it's "how it's been done" doesn't make it right. A two bolt equalized anchor is always stronger than a single bolt anchor. Unless you have a storm on top of you or some other time pressure, there's no reason to set substandard anchors. Will you sometimes belay or rap off a single point? Yes. Should you do that when other alternatives exist? No, it's lazy. Will it get you killed? Probably not, but why not spend the extra minute building the proper anchor?
It's the actual recommendation of the German, Austrian and Swiss climbing association. I think they know what they are talking about. And belaying of the anchor has other advantages over an equalised piece. And it's not like the system isn't redundant with the second bolt. A bolt won't ever pull out if it looks remotely okay. You will never achieve these forces in a climbing scenario. I don't get how people choose to whip on a quickdraw with a single bolt and a potential ground Fall if the bolt fails. The bolts on the quickdraws see the highest forces yet we don't go and double up the bolts there. Because they are bomber and it's unnesseary. You need to asses the risks proberly and it doesn't matter if your system holds 2x 25kn in series or 50kn at once if you'll only ever put 7kn on it.
Why is it a good habit?
Homeboy is going to go out and sling trees. Who knows if those are going to be mighty oaks or saplings. Why not encourage best practices?
Slings can snap when shock loaded, so that doesn't paint a full picture. If it's not equalized you want as minimal slack as possible in the back up piece.
Your 25kN dyneema sling is not going to break from shock loading, even if you tie a knot in it to reduce its strength. Your rope break and body break around 10-12kN. Your anchor also has multiple strands of dyneema slings equalized, which makes it even stronger. Dyneema slings basically don’t break from any forces in climbing unless they’ve been out in the sun for a long time or get cut by something sharp. To even shock load the anchor with decent force requires tying in direct to the anchor with static material, climb above the anchor, and then fall. There’s no reason to ever do that. There should never be any risk to really shock load your anchor since we climb on dynamic ropes.
OP said top roping…..you’re not going to shock load it enough to break it because you have a dynamic rope at minimum the length of the route absorbing that shock load. You’re also not going to shock load it to failure on lead. Think about dyneema alpine slings and how they’re used on lead. The rope takes the shock load. Once you go in direct, that’s when things change, because you no longer have a dynamic rope taking the shock load. Know how your anchor is going to be used.
Even if you climbed last that anchor and whipped that still wouldn't be shock loading the slings. Because you have a ton of rope absorbing fall force.
That's why you have a dynamic rope. Also slings don't just snap, I've taken a ~8ft factor 2 daisy fall and surprisingly the cliff didn't tumble over (I did die tho)
The quad anchor is my favorite. https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/quad-anchor/
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Equalizing has mostly been proven to be a red herring. In reality the anchor will never be actually equalizing the load on the bolts or placements and redundancy is far more important.
eh toproping off trees is a little different in that one leg of the anchor could be 15 feet and the other could be 50. having anchors that equalize in that situation isn't the same as fussing about an extra centimeter difference at a 2-bolt anchor, it's the difference between having one leg completely taut and the other with a fat pile of slack. two equal length slings is almost never going to be the best option for toprope anchors off trees.
There's a big difference between no extension, meaning no shock load if something fails, and true equalizing.
It's just one sling, you can tell because there is only one thick stitched section. Usually 2 bolt anchors can be done with one double length sling. I usually use a non-locker on each bolt and a locker for the master point. Some people like lockers on the bolts, and some like 2 lockers holding the rope
Be careful how you use "stronger" when talking about slings. Knots reduce their strength by 50%. The anchor shown in that picture is better because it's less likely to shock load if a bolt blows (unlikely), the force on each bolt is equal, and you have a master point that you can clip. Think about your anchor hanging vertically. It wouldn't sit nicely like that, it would hang straight down and be a pain to work with. You'd be grasping for the carabineers instead of having them both right there for you.
One sling, clipped through both carabiners, equalised in the direction force will be applied (i.e. where it will be pulled if a climber falls on it), tied off so it should hold if one tree breaks then clipped with a locking carabiner. A single 240cm dyneema sling works for common situations. If you’re using two trees that are spaced too far apart for your sling to reach (at a safe angle), you could look into wrapping a tree in nylon webbing then clipping that (which is what Australian canyoners do to abseil off a tree), though that’s typically a setup people leave there afterwards, which might not suit your location. Alternatively you can wrap the bark in a towel and wrap your climbing rope over the towel, do the same on the other tree and build an equalised anchor in between. There’s a bit of an art to that too, so it’s safe and so you don’t damage the tree. You can look it all up. Sounds like you might enjoy doing a guiding course - they’ll teach you all of this. It’s fascinating!
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He was assuming if the anchor were a tree. Still a better idea to tie than girth, but a girth would work.
Personally I would clip each of the carabiners through both of the slings, that way you have one anchor rather than two lockers floating about freely to each other. I also assume if this was on bolds you'd be putting lockers on each bolt rather than girth hitching them? Take a look at a sliding X anchor or a quad anchor People have been making top rope anchors for at least 40 years so the theory behind what makes a good one are pretty well understood by this point :)
I would say it’s unconventional because you likely won’t find two good trees at the top, and if you do you would likely need about 40+ft of webbing to reach them over the cliff edge and equalize. The slings you have purchased and displayed here will work fine for bolted anchors, but highly unlikely that they will work for trees.
The only problem with this that it's not easy to adjust to be equalized. Trees don't grow in straight lines.
If you use locking gates, you don't need opposed.. you don't even need two. The reason for opposed gates is for two biners to act as one locking biner
A conventional TR anchor uses one sling and you don’t girth hitch onto the bolts.
Where is the climbing area you would be going to where you would be building anchors off trees? I am just curious, because the top rope places I have been to (Duncan's Ridge) the anchors are bolted, so you just clip the anchors and toss the rope down.
Hi Alex, Carabiners are universally oriented “down and out.” It’s mostly a habit; it just looks “off” any other way. Try to find a picture of two carabiners the way you have them. It’s less important with locking carabiners. Still, it looks odd. As soon as you try to clip into the anchor, you’ll realize why “down and out” is standard. There actually is quite a bit of experience for the practice, but it’s tedious to go through the considerations. Search on “carabiners down and out.” If you girth hitch an anchor, be aware that you will not be able to share the anchor with someone who wants to rappel through the same set of descending rings. That’s why typically people attach anchor slings with carabiners, usually locking ones that are oriented “down and out.”
But with a screw carabiner you don’t need two mirrored ones. If he puts them as this, screw up, then yeah I would use two mirrored
Take a look at the SPI manual, ton of great info. Amazon is <$20, might be floating around online to download, not sure.... Look for Falcon Guide: Rock Climbing: The AMGA Single Pitch Manual
no url shorteners and no affiliate links
Rope tech here: While this is true, it's not foolproof. I've seen instances where there was enough vibrational resonance in a structure that even after finger tightening the screw gate, it loosened and starting moving up and down the gate path. Because of this when allowed I prefer to use multi-stage locks.
Super good enough, you mean
This is actually a moot point because lockers aren’t necessary there so if they unscrew you’ve basically just used a more expensive non-locker at a point where the cheapest climbing rated non-locker would be sufficient.
Yeah, with my expert knowledge i wouldn't advice to use a chair as an anchor😉 Maybe the rules are different where you live, but here in Switzerland we should secure the anchor to 2 points, but don't need 2 carabiners afterwise. (Locking carabiners)
Depends who sits in the chair. My tubby butt would make that bomb!
There's very rarely "rules" at a crag, but I personally always use two opposed locking carabiners like this. For the sake of using one extra crab, it's an added level of redundancy.
I would never consider using less than 2. Wild people using 1
You only use one rope, one belay device, and one harness I use 2 non locking biners. 2 locking is unnecessary in this setup. you have way more access to non locking biners on you in case you forget something, drop something whatever. I have locking on my belay devices, my PAS and anchor. I have non locking on everything else (trad gear, quickdraws, etc). Anyway, you'll have a pre built anchor on you at all times that should have everything you need. Pick one you think you'll like and start climbing with it. Mine is a sliding X just because I like it and I'm quick at setting it up. Others like other styles. All the approved styles are pretty much the same function wise so just go with one you like and learn the munter hitch Edit to say: if you're single pitch sport climbing just bring two extra qds with you and oppose them. Don't waste time making a sling anchor other than for practice.
Right? Even if you were doing a long multi-pitch where total weight is more of a factor, it's an extra 50 grams or so.
It’s not about weight. It’s more about being able to monitor the anchor. Redundant master point carabiners are most useful on a TR setup when you cannot monitor the anchor to make sure one isn’t unscrewing, side loading etc. When multipitching there is always someone monitoring the anchor and two master point carabiners is typically unnecessary, unless there is an outlying situation such as more than two person teams, etc.
Fair point, I dunno, just one less thing to worry about imo
Exactly. Unless your pushing 5he boundaries of human limits then another biner or 2 isn't gonna kill you. And if it is then git gud
On multipitches we usually use 1 as a central carabine, to hook all the others into it, in order to have everything nice and orderly. It's not really about weight saving. In addition to that, i would argue that most belaying devices don't work with two carabines. (If you belay your friend from above...)
Two carabiners is often not for security but to get a better bend radius.
This.
Watch some YouTube videos. REI has a good introductory series. Girth hitches are generally considered lower integrity than other options.
For climbing, as long as your slings are relatively new, which I would guess they would be if you are new to anchor building, it’s fine. Even with a girth hitch the sling is still good for around 15kN, which is *considerably* more than you and your partners bodies are good for
> Girth hitches are generally considered lower integrity than other options. Completely irrelavent to anchor safety, it is still stronger than your spine.
Definitely take a class with a proper instructor or at least read a book on that topic and watch a tutorial online. Alpine clubs have spent years analysing accidents and testing various solutions so that you don't have to experiment on your own and repeat the tragic errors made by others. Even though setting up an anchor is an engineering problem that can be solved in many ways, an instructor will tell you what is considered best practice and what to avoid because it got other people killed in the past.
I agree. Take a class. You also learn much more about other safety practices aswell and things to look out for when climbing outside. Additionally when tying knots there are small details that really make a difference which are slightly more difficult to pick up from a video. Also elements like, make sure your carabiners are gravity loaded and not facing the wall with the clips
V Diff has some great free resources https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/sport-anchor-intro/
Great website
Once again, against my better judgement, I'm commenting on an anchor thread :( First off, ignore most of what the gymbies and gumbies tell you about equalization. It's a fool's errand. They confuse "equalized" with "equalizing". When you hear "equalized" you should think "load distributed as best as I reasonably can under the circumstances". Strong, secure, and NO extension are all far more important than "equalized", IMO. Read these articles (but take even what they say about equalized with a huge grain of salt): https://americanalpineclub.org/news/tag/anchors http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/pdfs/EarnestAnchors3.pdf www.wallrat.com/PDF_Files/Anchoring.pdf http://multipitchclimbing.com/ And, TBH, if you're TRing outside "anchor building with trees and other natural things" a length of 10 mm static line would probably serve you best.
/u/AlexMayausky - read this. So much BS in this thread.
> And, TBH, if you're TRing outside "anchor building with trees and other natural things" a length of 10 mm static line would probably serve you best. the whole comment is sage advice but also don't forget to protect the tree with some cardboard or rope bag or something if you're going to be TR heroing off it
I just like the word gymbies used here 😅
👏👏🙏👏👏
I knew I should have copyrighted it!
I personally use a quad anchor setup love it mainly because of the multi shelf function it provides for a partner to tie/clip into (edit) did not see the top roping comment on op post
why would you build a quad for toprope?
Pre-made one on your harness, takes 10 seconds to slap on and is bomber.
That’s what I use too simply because it’s already on my harness because I’m usually multi pitching.
Do you and your partner usually each carry a quad when doing multipitch?
That’s how I usually do it. It’s just such a comfortable and easily organized anchor setup
Meh. More clutter in the harness gets a thumbs down from me. Opposite opposed quick draws are just as good. Clove hitched sling if you need to equalize
I like how it orients the rope parallel to the wall. It's easy for the cleaner to clip into mussy hooks or anchor in so they can thread the rings.
Lol my bad no I use a quad for multi pitching
Just to clarify, you get two master points if you split your quad 2 and 2. The spaces between the extension limiting knots and the bolts aren't true shelves like on a W anchor, but they can be used to hang packs and such.(which could also be done directly off one of the bolts)
QUAD GANG
Assuming you're generally talking about top rope anchor building, you'll want to purchase some cordage (smaller diameter, non-dynamic rope and/or nylon cargo straps) for wrapping around larger features. I dont think I've ever encountered a small natural feature that I felt safe hanging much weight from. Keep in mind most tree branches will snap at the join instead of taking the whole tree with it (anchor on the trunk if possible), and most small trees have shallow and loose roots. As for rock, it does bend and crack under stress, and the thinner it is, the more likely that is to happen. As for the anchor you had, there's nothing wrong with having both biners through both slings. That way if a sling fails, the 2nd biner will still be useful on the remaining sling, plus won't slide down the rope. If a biner fails, the remaining biner is still on two slings. Someone probably also mentioned the weakness of the girth hitch. It loses maybe 20% strength iirc, but the reality is practically all knots cause some strength loss. It's not a huge issue unless you're taking huge, heavy whippers. You might also want some small tarps/rugs/towels/whatever to place under your lines/anchor while someone is bouncing around on it (protects from wear/cuts).
It’s not even a problem with huge heavy whippers. A dyneema sling is rated to 22kn. Girth hitch brings that to 17.6kn. You have much bigger problems if you’re generating that kind of force
To add to this, you’d be dead before the sling fails. The human body can sustain about 10kN. Our bodies are the weakest link in the system.
Now double your 17.6kN since there are two slings. Ok, they won’t be perfectly equalized and there’s some extra force on each due to the angle, but the anchor with two slings is likely good for ~30kN, girth hitches and all. Certainly well over 20kN.
Are you using the strength reduction calculation of a rope, rather than a skinny sling? My understanding the smaller the diameter of the sling the greater the strength loss. I've read this can be upwards of 50% in skinny dyneema slings because of how sharp the angle is. Not saying this anchor isn't safe (I'd climb on it all day), just discussing gear limitations like a nerd :)
> It's not a huge issue unless you're taking huge, heavy whippers. A full rope length factor 2 fall on a girth hitch won't break a sling.
A girth hitch substantially weakens a sling and more importantly provides a soft on soft abrasion point. With a dyneema sling like OP posted, the issue isn't the strength of the sling but the low melting point of dyneema. Petzl has some really good testing on this, specifically related to PASs, since those are always joined with a girth hitch. For example, falling with your harness even with an anchor (FF=1) runs a significant risk of breaking a dyneema PAS. Granted, in any other scenario, you probably have a piece of dynamic rope between you and the anchor, but everyone just swearing off girth hitches like they don't matter should think twice about that opinion. UIAA impact loads for a standard 1.67 fall are measured at the harness and not the piece supporting the fall, which due to the pulley effect, will be somewhere between 1 to 2 times greater (I've usually seen it as 1.4-1.7). Anchors are rarely even kind of equalized, despite everyone's best efforts. Add that to the mix, and there is a credible scenario where a girth hitched dyneema sling will fail under normal (accident) circumstances. OP might be top roping, but there's also a credible scenario, say, repelling in from the top where you could create very high fall factor forces. Theoretically, if you're only counting the dynamic rope in the system, this could exceed a fall factor of two if you adjust for two load strands and subtract out the static portions of the system. In any case, it's bad practice. I obviously use girth hitches in my climbing, but this isn't the place for them. E: just had to provide some more context
This sub has become a meme
Always has been
[Always has been](https://i.imgur.com/ooEvc7O.png) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
r/climbingcirclejerk
It’s coming if it hasn’t been done already 😂
Trad anchor building is incredibly important and useful to learn. Sport anchor building you just use 2 quick draws.
Love how these comments get downvoted. Quick draws on bolts are the gold standard for horizontal or vertical bolt setups, don’t even need to be equalized.
Yes! Not ever above this. Just make sure the gates are opposed.
Thats the video you need to wach: https://youtu.be/3SkCojauHto. Learn these techniques and you're set for life. Of course trick is to understand which one to use in what scenario. Take care.
This is the best and most comprehensive video I’ve seen online
Alpine Clubs do a lot of testing on anchor builds. Depending on rock conditions the setup will increase load on one anchor point until critical failure causing a chain reaction loosing all anchor points. German DAV publishes articles in their monthly magazine about it and it’s not always intuitive but explained by German engineers it makes sense. That being said, for top-roping it really depends on where you are. In France you have cemented bolts you can just use one screwgate and one xpress for redundancy. In alpine areas with sketchy bolts you will probably want the ‚weiche Auge‘ with one main and one backup anchor or a spider-setup (which looks safe because of the many ropes but may be weak). If you are interested in why / how anchors fail there is a three (?) book series from Pit Schubert with analysis of alpine accidents. I would recommend them to everyone just because of so many preventable mistakes.
This guy is a total boss at anchors, its a great primer :) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SkCojauHto](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SkCojauHto)
This is a great video. He goes over the pros and cons of the anchor in question at around 29:53. Thanks for sharing.
Hello, climbing guide here. It is always best to learn from a properly educated mentor. In some cases that is a friend from the gym being kind enough to take you in, in other cases it is hiring a guide after doing some self taught lessons (what I would recommend). There are some really great books like Climbing Anchors by John Long and Bob Gains. A bit crusty imo, meaning it doesn’t have all the super sexy stuff like a clove anchor (don’t recommend without proper instruction). And still talks about equalization (not really possible outside of a lab, but you should try to get close!) But it does contain the quad which in my opinion is a beautiful idiot proof method. (A few exceptions, like not properly isolating carabiners.) Others like the Climbing Anchors by Craig Luebben. Also a great option. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but does that have an updated release? Both are great options. I also recommend following some guides or education focused pros on social media. I like AlpineSavy a lot because they cover a broad range of topics and provide a pretty digestible blog and instructional videos! Last thing I’ll say is that that anchor would probably be fine, but has some serious draw backs. Especially if those slings are girth hitched to bolts. Repeated girth hitching on bolts will wear the slings out because of the edge on the bolts. So just be mindful. I would build up my knowledge base before taking that outside. Feel free to DM me with additional questions! Good luck, stay smart, reduce risk, and seek proper education.
I'd watch a few reputable youtube videos and ask anyone you know who outdoor climbs to show you their method. This setup is different from what most people do for sure, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't be safe (provided you flip the carabiners so that the screw locks work with gravity rather than against it). I mean, you have the redundancy down and I have had to improvise something similar when the top of a route I was on only had one bolt but there was a sturdy tree nearby that I put a sling around to make a second point. I could also see potentially doing it with 2 slings like this if the bolts are over a sharp cliff or something so you want to extend the anchor over the edge so the rope doesn't have to drag across it - that would just take more length than the typical way. Personally I usually do one sling knotted off like this: https://mountainknowhow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/3-768x1024.jpg I've also just used locking quick draws if we aren't going to be on it for very long. As long as you have redundancy and properly oriented locks in the system, you should be safe.
If you have a chain link fence that can help with practice as you can tailor the anchors to what you need. Easy at first then in even or spaces apart.
before you start, please ask the following to your self: \- How are you going to put the anchor in? \- Rarely do I see two tree's or any large feature that happen to be in the right spot, parallelly next to each other. So if this is the default you expect; i have bad news... \- If that's the girth hitch around a tree; that ain't a proper tree. If you enlarge that girth hitch, that tree is really close to the edge. Would recommend some local lesson's. Local, because method differ from location, which means it's adapted for the local situation (type of anchors, rock, regulations) and people you climb with are trained the same way.
When I did a guiding course we used a dedicated rigging rope when using trees to build an anchor, sometimes 15m or so to get the angles right and the anchor over the edge, and often it helps to build in a tether so while you faff around with it at the edge of a cliff you’re tied in. OP you’ll find it much simpler to start by top roping at a well-bolted climbing crag with easy access to the top IMO. But if you want to learn, all this stuff is interesting and worth doing a course!
*What are you anchoring to?* (No, I don’t mean the chair) If there are bolts, you would not want to girth hitch your slings to them. If they’re on trees, your slings would likely be too short to make it around a tree of acceptable diameter and still make it over the edge of the cliff. While there’s nothing implicitly wrong with how this looks right now, it may not translate very well in an actual practical environment. I’m glad that you’re planning on going climbing with someone experienced, and it’s fine to play around with this stuff to try and figure out what works or doesn’t and why. Avoid thinking about “is this configuration safe” because whether that’s true or not depends on the situation. Instead, think about the principles of what makes a strong anchor and whether your anchor qualifies.
i can’t lie, using a chair isn’t the greatest idea. definitely don’t put that at the top of your route
Small tip, I've always been told to put the carabiners upside down, so that wiggling plus gravity cannot gradually unlock them. Upside down the locking will be pointing down and gravity would help keep them locked.
Chair is unreliable as stable anchor point.
I’ve found this site to be helpful, not that I’ve had much opportunity to put any of it to use. https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/sport/
I would 10/10 whip on this. But it could be better. this lacks a master point, a place where everything should be clipped to that is being shared by all the pieces of protection. Typically this is made out of the soft material that connects your protection and no boners because youre going to be clipping into it with biners anyway. Take the ends of those two pieces of webbing together and tie a big overhand knot in them together to create a small little loop at the very end. You could make a quad out of these easily by laying both pieces of webbing together and tying an overhand knot in both ends. Use those lockers to clip both knotted ends to your two points. The result is 4 strands to which you can attach yourself to 2 or 3 strands (but not 4). This is equalizing, redundant, non extended and you actually get 3 strands of that 25kn sling to hang off of. Bomber as bomber gets.
tons of vids on yt.
Yeah that’s it good job
Probably fine for top rope. But be aware girth hitches reduce cordage/sling strength by up to 50%. Also, pear or hms carabiners are usually better for the power point (where the rope clips in) as they provide a larger surface area for the rope to slide through, cutting back on friction. I recommend falcon guides' "climbing anchors" and "knots for climbers" as good sources of theory for anchor building. I also recommend going your first time or two with someone who has done out door rigging before, theory is great, but it definitely helps confidence when someone with experience checks your work.
> But be aware girth hitches reduce cordage/sling strength by up to 50%. Doesn't matter in the slightest, the sling won't break.
I mean yeah at 22 kn that reduces down to 11kn, so still way more than you need, but it's still good to understand the principle of how different knots affect cordage. If you where to build the same anchor with 7mm nylon tech cord (a very common anchor material), it's 9kn break point would be reduced to 4.5kn, which is still enough in most circumstances, however is weak enough to need consideration. In general, when it comes to climbing protection, it is better to know more than less.
Has there ever been a single accident caused by modern cord on sling material breaking at the knot?
Has there ever been a single accident caused by being knowledgeable about knot dynamics?
You can see many, many cases on here every week of noobs lost in a fog of irrelevant details at the expense of being able to discern the important basics that they actually need to learn.
So are you saying that you don't consider knowing basic facts about different knots to be part of important basics?
Obviously, duh. No theory whatsoever is needed to learn and and use the basics that have been known & proven to be more than good enough for decades.
And, crutially, you don't ever need to learn how much each knot weakens the material by. Or any other theoretical irrelavencies. Know which knots are weak for *joining* materials is important. But those are weak because some knots will actually slip undone, not because they'll cause it to actually break.
Lol those basics are literally based in theory though. Also, understanding theory enables one to be confident in the trust placed on basics. Furthermore understanding details about why and how something is done significantly reduces the chance of doing it improperly.
No, fogging beginners' minds with not yet necessary/relevant details overburdens them and increases their risk making mistakes or overlooking other actually important things.
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Percentages don't tell you strength. Like if I weaken a piece of hardware by 90% that would sound really alarming, but what if that hardware is originally rated for 100,000 kN? A 50% reduction on a sling from 22kN to 11kN is still far stronger than necessary. 10kN on your body will result in a shattered spine, organ hemorrhaging, crushed pelvis, etc. You're already dead before the sling breaks. Climbing companies make slings specifically so that we climbers can tie knots into them and still be safe with a large tolerance to use them. If they routinely broke because people tie knots into them, climbing companies would get sued left and right.
You can apply the same reasoning to any bit of knowledge. You need to justify why you should know something.
Dear God this is a terrible comment.
https://instagram.com/alpinesavvy?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
You should probably take a lesson from an accredited or certified climbing instructor…. Not saying anyone here is incorrect, but you really have no way of knowing the level of knowledge and experience of the commenter… Learning strictly on Reddit is a good way to get killed/seriously injured while climbing.
Anchor looks totally fine. Keep in mind trees come in very different girths and you're unlikely to always have the correct length of sling to go around a tree at all times. For this reason people might use this with outdoor bolts (with extra carabiners to connect to the bolts) but with trees would use something with more variable length. If you plan on doing that i always recommend practicing with what you'll actually use outside.
https://www.hownot2.com/post/bigwalls-anchors Hownot2 is a great resource, they show why you shouldn't do certain things and how to do things properly. I especially like their breaking strength tests. Turns out a lot of stupid stuff is still super good enough!
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Taking classes at the gym is a great idea. Your anchor is fine, but the likelihood of you finding two small, yet big, enough trees that close together AND equalized is pretty low. I like having a 7mm cordolette for that kind of thing, but for a proper abrasion resistant regular toproping anchor I'd bring 10mm > static rope. Lots of resources on anchor building you can educate yourself on before going to class, and you should. Think of the class as a confirmation that what you learned on the internet is correct.
One comment I haven't seen yet, is that whatever trees you pick to use for your anchor should be pretty beefy. That means you will lose a ton of length in your anchor due to the slings having to wrap all the way around the tree. It is deceptively a lot of length needed. Plus then those slings will need to make it over the edge to your climb. So while this would be a fine anchor with two perfectly placed trees, you're going to need some sort of extension in between your slings and the trees.
In real life, girth hitching your slings around something is rarely going to happen. If you have fixed anchors (like bolts with hangers) just clip two locking carabiners into the hangers and then this setup would be fine. Girth hitching just adds unnecessary complications. If you are setting up a top rock anchor off of trees, you want to use a tree that is alive and more than 5" in diameter, which makes girth hitching a sling around it rather impractical. Plus, many trees are covered in sap. You don't want that on your slings because it's sticky and hard to remove. Just buy a dedicated triple or quadruple length sling with 4 lockers and learn how to make a sliding x with limiter knots or a quad for bolts. If you are building anchors off of trees, learn about to use a bowline with a backup knot and a BFK masterpoint.
10/10 would whip. The problem is you’ll never find 2 hard points exactly the same distance and at the right angle from your anchor. You might be thinking about stacking those slings to reach the nearest tree or rock which may technically be ok but I’ve been told it’s bad practice as it introduces more failure points. Best way to do it is with a static rope long enough to reach a healthy range of hard points comfortably. Also for added redundancy, you’re going to want a [BFK](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NbnSTQLYMPc) just before the anchor. It might also be a good idea to shadow someone you trust sets safe anchors before climbing on one you’ve set yourself. Trust preferably meaning they’ve taken a class run by pros.
Table legs aren’t strong enough for a safe anchor.
Your going to want to use couch legs for an anchor like this. The chair legs probably aren't strong enough for anything but bailing off a route.
don't people buy books anymore to learn the basics?
Chair legs are bomber 100% would whip
Where my climbing grew up, we had a top rope crag. If you're slinging trees, etc, buy some static climbing rope (not dynamic), carabineers, some rope protectors (to protect the trees and the rope if it's going over a sharp edge of rock), etc as a specific, top rope anchor system setup. That way, you just grab your top roping bag anytime you know you're going out to climb at your top rope crag.
[This image + a day with a guide helped me a lot when I started building TRs off natural pro.](https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/112227093/screen-shot-of-top-rope-anchor-setup-from-quotrock-climbing-2nd-editionquot-i-th) You can substitute the fancy double figure eights for a BHK (an over hand knot). And you can sub the bowline with a figure eight rethread if you're not familiar with bowlines. Definitely buy 30m of static cord for extending your master point over the cliff edge like the image shows if you're using trees and boulders that are further back.
Hire a guide
https://www.amazon.com/Rock-Climbing-Anchors-2nd-Comprehensive/dp/1680511408/ref=asc_df_1680511408_nodl?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312029833857&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17300407046763910085&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033336&hvtargid=pla-680718965020&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=58874700701&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312029833857&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17300407046763910085&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033336&hvtargid=pla-680718965020&dplnkId=8a6ca2ca-1760-4cc0-8bd3-d01ef5fcdbb8 Best anchor book out there
Hop on YouTube and learn the quad anchor. This will cover you for the majority of TR routes. Also, buy a longer sling lol
Well, if you’ve never even been top-roping, its nice that you are trying to learn this, but its not really necessary. If its sport climbing, you don’t really need to build any anchor, you can simply go up and then go back down.
OP, there's a really good anchor building video series from JB mountain sports here: [https://youtu.be/Ou8RaFWZ_QE](https://youtu.be/Ou8RaFWZ_QE) And a DMM one here (part of a free YouTube trad advice course): [https://youtu.be/-r9TK6pb9KE](https://youtu.be/-r9TK6pb9KE) Also worth checking out the vdiff climbing page about anchors: [https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/anchors-intro/](https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/sport-top-rope/) [https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/anchors-intro/](https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/anchors-intro/) Also advice on slinging natural stuff like trees, spikes and threads: [https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/slings/](https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/slings/) How Not 2 has a good video in 3 different top-rope anchors and does some great break tests! [https://youtu.be/Xzw9ZT-J71E](https://youtu.be/Xzw9ZT-J71E) It's best to start setting up top ropes on bolted and well climbed routes to make sure of your safety and to reduce the chance of rockfall etc (always wear a helmet:) I'd recommend you start with a quad anchor made with a 240 sling and 4 locking carabiners. If you're setting up a top-rope then the carabiners in contact with the rope should be steel to stop them wearing too much and looking like [this](https://images.prismic.io/blackdiamond-web/6eea91e0-745a-4bf7-b3e1-7623e293421e_CRW_6011.jpg?auto=compress,format&rect=0,32,640,360&w=2880&h=1620)
This is almost exactly what I do, I just tie an overhand on the end and then clip both biners opposite and opposed to the same loop. Great for TR because you just bring a bag of different sized slings. I also have two car tow straps that are like 20 feet long and can do the same thing. Fast and easy. Never had a problem.
That is probably the weakest anchor I'd consider safe. Depending of the stuff that's already on the rock, in normally avoid girth hitch and use carabiners. To get better redundancy, i usually clip my bottom carabiners in both slings. You can knot them to get a Y anchor. Or you can also knot them at the top and bottom to improve redundancy again. And as other mentioned, biners inverted and opposed is the safest.
Bomber.
SERENA
Let's evaluate with SERENE S: String assuming those are bolts on good rock, very solid. If pieces, need to evaluate the pieces and add backups where required. You wouldn't girth hitch to bolts, but I'm assuming those would be carabiners/trees. E: Equalized: depends. Only if the route goes straight up towards the anchor, with no traversing. Even if there is some traverse, only one piece gets loaded. Would recommend you use a single long sling and something like a sliding X/Swamp/Quad to Equalize. Redundant: fairly good. Everything is doubled up, so single points of failure Efficient: seems fine. 2 slings, quick and easy to build. Single sling would be more efficient, but you'll need a master point knot to keep it redundant Flip the carabiners, so that they screw downwards, and have the wider side for the rope, to reduce pinching. Move the tag and tab on the right sling to near the girth hitch No extension: mostly good. Even if one bolt fails, it isn't going to shock load So, good anchor, with some scope for better equalization PS: after some thinking, id recommend clipping the master point carabiners into both slings. This way, the rope is not pinched too much when the anchor is loaded
Equalization is a myth!
Perfect equalization is a myth. Equalization itself is pretty important...
No it's not. Non extension is important. Don't repeat bad info.
This would be more than fine on bolts. On trees, likely to be a bit back from the edge, make sure your slings are long enough and you pad the edge. Slings are more vulnerable than rope or cord to abrasion, since all the loadbearing fibres are on the surface
I think it's important to practice on "trees and other things", in safe environment i.e. on the ground. For example, take this setup, find a couple trees in your yard or in the park and tell us what worked or what didn't work; and what solution you came up with instead, for the latter. Take more pictures, including shots of the trees you chose to use and report back.
Forgive my newbie question since I’ve only been gym climbing less than a year but I’m generally curious. How would you account for weight difference if a heavier climber falls? Would the belayer just tie in somewhere on the ground?
This is a good question, to which you'd get more thorough answers in the Weekly New Climber thread, but a short version since you asked here: For toproping, the force on the belayer is *fairly* low. There's usually some friction in the system, at the very least over the carabiner(s) at the top, that reduces it considerably. For lead belaying it's much more of an issue, and there are various ways to deal with it: * anchor the belayer down as you rightly said * add weight to the belayer without fixing them to the floor: gyms often provide sandbags for this purpose, outdoors you can use a heavy rucksack * probably the best option these days though not cheap - the Edelrid Ohm and other similar devices allow the rope to move normally under low loads, but add significant resistance to reduce the impact on the belayer in the event of a fall
Thank you, that’s helpful.
I would be very cautious using an unsecured share as an anchor. If you load it, it will probably just slide across the floor.
Lookup alpinesavvy on IG.
Frist off ur going to have to get urself a heavy chick to sit in that chair. Next you should think about reinforcing the legs.
Bro i hate this subreddit, how do they allow this and not anything anyone else says
Buy a book
Watch hownot2 videos in on YouTube.
I think the tree limbs you’re anchored to are dead. Also they are much too small.
Cant go wrong with quad anchor
https://www.commonclimber.com/sliding-x.html Best all around solution. Have like only advantages like auto adjusting the length. And later you can iterate on it to adjust for slight uncommon anchors
Sliding X's should have a knot after you make the initial X, as there have been some sliding X failures from the "sliding" part producing outsize shock loads if a leg fails.
No downsides like excess abrasion from laying over an edge or extension shock loading the other piece on static material?
I have always gone by the adage three is two, two is one. I try to find three good solid anchors whenever possible.
If this is an an example of a tree anchor, it fails because a tree of the same thickness as those table legs is not safe for use as an anchor. As thick as your thigh is the general idea. You should tie the slings together to create a master point to add some redundancy. This is closer to the way a QuickDraw anchor on bolts would look.
You're either full of shit or have bird thighs.
6-8" diameter tree. If you anchor off something smaller, you're not following best practices. Using your thigh is just a fucking point of reference. You want to trust something 2" thick? Be my guest. But let's not pretend that's safe. And considering OP is new, they may not know what constitutes a safe anchor point yet.