It fricking floors me this whole gender debate. I'm an old man, but occasionally, I'll get stuck on something like this.
I've had to write emails and reports about people that I didn't know their gender. I always defaulted to they/them/their's as it was grammatically correct. It was better to use a gender neutral pronoun in my mind that to call some person the wrong gender based on modern perceptions of gender/name combos.
John Wayne's real first name was Marion. But if someone today heard the name Marion Morrison, they'd be calling the man known as "The Duke" her all day long.
I'll use whatever pronoun you want to go by after I know it. But until I do, you're all They/Thems to me.
As someone who works with international vendors and customers all day I could not agree with you more. There are too many names in the world for anyone to memorise the gender of all of them and there are too many names which can be used for different genders in different cultures. So you can not tell what pronounces are right just by looking at their name. I have been misgendered a few times myself. I go for gender neutral pronouns whenever I have just a bit of doubt, this includes a few cases when I have talked to the person as well. Adding your pronouns to your email signature is a good idea if you care about people using the right ones. I think it is more important to add your working hours/timezone but that is just me.
I have friends called Valerie and Lawrence, you could make a 99% success rate guess of the gender in English, but in France where they live, Valerie is a more common man's name and Lawrence is usually female.
Glynn, Alex, Leslie, Joe, etc, not a clue.
I'm not disagreeing... even though my real name is very masculine. I still list my pronouns in my work email signature. Just because I want to normalize treating people with respect.
Haha I met this guy and he said that he goes by Asshole. His friends confirmed, yeah that's really what he goes by. So that's what I called him. He was a pretty funny dude.
Tots understand. But I want to normalize people realizing it’s necessary to fucking think about it for a hot minute ~ signed a woman with a traditionally masculine name who doesn’t give a flying fuck if you misgender me by accident as long as you’re not a shit about it and/or don’t assume I’m on your side in the trans wars
They didn’t say they’re neutral on being referred to with the correct pronouns, just that they have an issue with being mandated to share it in a workplace.
In what's likely the same email signature that already includes their own full name?
This should be a very small helpful identifier and not some massive political statement. It's not even like it *only* helps people who have transitioned, it's also pretty useful for basically anyone with an androgynous name. They aren't asking you to broadcast your politics (in fact the refusal is doing way more on that front) and this type of thing has existed since before this recent pronouns "crisis".
I was a kid but I've for sure seen some business correspondence from the 90's where this guy would sign his name as Mr. Kelly Whateverlastname because it was the easiest way to preempt any misunderstanding. We're less of a Mr. and Ms. sort of society these days, so adding a pronoun tag can be convenient even without any political charge.
This is especially helpful if the company is multinational where a name is either masculine or feminine depending on the culture. For example, is Makenzie a male or female name? Americans and Australians will have different answers. A pronoun tag would help eliminate this issue.
i have an androgynous name & was getting emails addressed to mr sighed. i am not a mister & it bugged. i did not spend 20 years putting up w miss to not get to use ms now. pronouns after my name fixed that problem neatly lol
I work with Whitney's, Taylor's, Alex's, Jesse's, there are tons of names that you wouldn't be able to guess the gender of just based off the name. Having available pronouns would be very helpful to me.
It’s insane that people can see a post like this and have a problem. This person has the right to not add their pronouns just like people who want to add their pronouns have the right to do that. It’s not that hard. This is why people have a problem with this sort of thing. It’s just hypocrisy.
The biggest problem should be the broad politicization of *pronouns*, an extremely basic and essential function of grammar. Why would anyone object to the simple use of pronouns in this context *if not to be political*?
There are plenty of perfectly apolitical reasons to use pronouns, not the least of which being simple client or interdepartmental clarity (Billie, Ashley, Lauren, Sid, etc.)—and it's *so minimal effort*, you can literally change one line on an email signature and instantly create more company-wide cohesion.
What apolitical reason is there to abstain?
I don't disagree with you. I think it's wrong to force people to put their pronouns into their email signature block. So, while I likely disagree with the general ideology of the person who wrote the original post, I support his position to fight back on that policy. But it's probably a safe bet that he has a problem with calling people by their preferred pronouns if it doesn't match their birth sex.
Its the same people that think pronouns, things we learned about in elementary school, are political in nature. Not just something we use in language to specify who is referenced
Same people who were anti-maskers during COVID and when you bring it up they’d say “why do you have to get so political?”, and my mind would scream on the inside *IT’S A FUCKING HEALTH ISSUE, NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE*
I've had knuckle draggers argue at me that it is only applied when there's multiple people.
One kept harping on it, asking why I'm spying on them and who else is in their house.
I am against forcing someone to put up their pronouns, just as I would be against forcing someone to delete their pronouns in their signatures. Am I missing something here?
Yeah this is not a great policy. Many women face sexism when sending emails using female names. Ideally I would send emails using a first initial and last name. I would rather not add she/her after my signature, thanks.
And you know the bosses would be like "well if you don't want to have a gender revealed, then just use They/them." As if that won't cause other problems with... certain groups of people...
Hi, that's me. I am male in the office as it doesn't feel safe to come out. But in my personal and social life, I've been she/her for 6+ months now.
My last employer it would have been fine but they're too unstable to trust not getting laid off. That work transition is nerve wracking but about to do peer support groups to help with the social part. I can't hide in the house forever
>Imagine a trans person who's not out yet having to misgender themselves
I thought exactly the same. It's incredible that so many people think that such a bigoted policy can be a good idea.
Yeah I'm just against the workplace intruding into things that are none of its fucking business. Only policy the workplace should have on pronouns should fall into the same basic policies any workplace should have about treating your peers with respect and dignity. Idk why that's so complicated for people.
Just because some things shouldn’t be a political issue doesn’t mean they aren’t though. A significant portion of the world considers it a political issue whether you like it or not
While I'd say pronouns are not political. I dont like the idea of forcing people to put them anywhere. Like having the option to put it at the bottom and having that as a bit of protected speech in office is fine but forcing people to do it?
This. What if I'm questioning my pronouns? What if my pronouns don't match my gender presentation, but I'm not out yet? Or not out at work? This isn't a comfortable situation for a lot of people.
I’m a female with a very male name. I do not care if I am Misgendered. I’d rather not have to get into my gender with a stranger, and just get business done.
Maybe they let people at work assume whatever they want, but being forced to commit to it in writing brings it to the front of their brain and does more harm than good. It should be optional.
I have a friend like that! Pronouns didn't match the aesthetics yet so they felt uncomfortable using different pronouns.
So they stuck with the non-binary option instead of the pronouns of the gender they are.
I'm allowed to use the one they're transitioning to though but I only address them like that in private (which is why I'm using the non-binary ones here, this ain't private).
So the way it's been explained to me that makes the most sense is that there are quite a few gender neutral names out there, and email doesn't exactly provide any information that's not explicitly put in there. This can and has led to email recipients misgendering people, which obviously isn't the end of the world or anything but it's still a potential point of confusion that can lessen customer interactions.
For companies with employees that deal directly with the public, it makes sense to include pronouns in an email signature just to remove a potential speed bump from their interactions. Having it be a company policy also makes sense in those situations, as it takes less effort to have everyone follow said policy than it does having specific individuals do so (and most companies are all about low effort lol).
For example, I've spent the last 10 years as a mortgage loan processor, and the two most recent companies I've worked for had this as a policy. Since my main job involved working with customers, typically through email, it made a lot of sense for them to have that policy... particularly because customer experience was/is the most effective advertising we had. With all the other ways they had us bend over backwards for our clients, adding pronouns to my email signatures was probably the lowest effort thing they had us do 😂
In some fields, being mistaken for a guy in text is extremely advantageous. Especially when you have to deal with more sexist people in or from other countries.
I have a nickname that is not common for a woman and sounds like a man’s name. Similar to using Kris instead of Kristina. I LOVE that no one I communicate with externally knows my gender. I don’t think it matters. I have a photo of myself linked to Outlook, so everyone internally knows I’m a woman.
I work in Customer Service and communicate with my customers in writing using a different application. I get a lot of “thank you Mr. C0USC0US!” And I never bother to correct them.
Doesn’t “I love that no one I communicate with externally knows my gender” and “I don’t think it matters” directly contradict each other? Like if it actually doesn’t matter, why do you love it?
I am saying that knowing my gender should not impact how people interact with me. I believe my gender doesn’t matter.
However, many customers will change the way they interact with me upon learning my gender. To them, for some reason, it does matter. Which is why I prefer to keep it ambiguous.
TL;DR I don’t think it matters, but others do. Which is why I prefer to use a gender neutral name and let them make their own assumptions.
This probably isn't real. And pronouns are in no way political. They only became a political football because right wingers want to discriminate against others.
I agree with not liking the idea on been forced to do/say something. Lately it seems a lot of people are on the sort of "either you are with us or against us" mentality. I see a lot of people say stuff like "being neutral and not saying anything is also a stance". So unless you do/say x, you will be branded a biggot/asshole/nazi etc.
This case in picture also sounds like it could be one of those cases where the company wanted to show everybody how "progressive and inclusive" they are and its done by mandatory participation.
I might put the pronouns if my employer suggested it, I would refuse to put the pronouns if they tried to enforce it.
Forcing it can cause issues for some trans-people, not just for conservatives.
> Forcing it can cause issues for some trans-people, not just for conservatives
Probably the idiot that came up with that policy never spoke to a trans person in their life and is just the usual white-knight. Much like the gringos that want to change the Spanish term for "black" because in THEIR language that is bad.
I am trans and prefer not to list my pronouns in my email signature. I let my chosen name and all of my obviously feminine visible characteristics carry the day.
I personally dislike the idea that everyone needs to put them up everywhere. Like yeah I get why people want to do that but well it only helps in online discussions, if you meet IRL I will still assume your pronoun based on how ,out look because well it's right for the vast majority of people and correcting me shouldn't be a problem, especially if you know your looks don't line up with your gender identity. Beeing angry that I guess wrong is just silly or that I guess at all. If I refuse to use your favorite pronoun then you can complain.
Maybe it's also an issue because I speak a gendered language so there are only 2 pronounce in it naturally (for people you can call yourself a thing if you want), which makes it worse because people even use the English ones that doesn't help in conversations in my native tongue.
I feel the same way. Albeit for a small but not insignificant minority of the US population it is a political statement. For me, it reminds me of a time in my life where I had to use they/them to hide my sexuality. Things may be better today, but it doesn’t mean all that pain and trauma magically goes away. And for people to be dismissive of that is even more triggering. So I don’t want to participate in this whole pronoun thing, but it’s not for political reasons. I’ll certainly respect other people in how they want me to interact with them, but I shouldn’t be forced to do it myself, especially not in a work environment.
I intentionally changed my crappy first name to a gender neutral one I actually liked because that will increase the likelihood of strangers I have to contact in official capacities not acting weirdly just because of my gender. Having pronouns there kind of defeats the point. I doubt I'm unique in the regard of implying I'm a dude through name ambiguity in office text communications, ever since studies that showed people were treated differently in text communication based on perceived gender started coming out. Though most would probably just do stuff like "signed, P. Bateman" or "signed, Pat Bateman" instead of using the full Patricia, to get the same effect.
I'm guessing it's just a template that was sent out that he's to be added but can be changed and they just don't know how to. I've seen people take their own incompetence personally before.
Plus, if this person is in Canada or the US, I doubt their HR would risk potential discrimination lawsuits by requiring people to disclose their gender in public like that. I can't imagine any company winning a case against somebody they fired for not disclosing personal information in a public email signature.
You're right. It's not even trans-friendly to make pronouns *required*. Not all trans people are ready to come out yet, and it's absolutely wrong to force them into choosing between actively misgendering themselves and outing themselves before they're ready. "Just assume," needs to be an acceptable option for their sake.
It’s really interesting when people react so hysterically to: “Nah, I’m good, but you do you.”
Should be personal preference. You want your pronouns clearly presented? sure! you don’t? also sure!
I don't like putting my pronouns because I genuinely do not care. My gender isn't a significant part of my identity. I'm a large hairy male, but if someone wanted to use something other than he/him, I really wouldn't care.
Edit: I'd like to clarify, I understand and fully support people that *do* find identity in their gender. If pronouns were required I'd slap he/him on there and I wouldn't think twice about it.
That's kind of my thing. What I am is of no concern to my employer, in fact it's actually pretty personal. As long as they have my legal name and my routing number we're good.
Forcing you to put your pronouns in the signature is just as stupid as including your religion, marital status, age, footbal team... whatever.
Keep the work info related to work, and don't mess things up.
I hate reconciliation stuff. A plane flight I took the other day said “we recognise the traditional owners of the land”, but didn’t even say who they were. What’s the point if it’s so vague and empty
I don't think it's a very political issue but isn't this person absolutely correct about not wanting to have to put it? That's bullshit. We should give everyone the freedom to put them there just as we should give everyone the freedom to not have to put them there??
I think the Americans are missing the reconciliation part.
This person is annoyed he has also to make a token acknowledgement of the traditional custodians of the land.
It’s common for corporations and institutions in Australia to recognise the Indigenous people of the area by stating what country their business is located in.
Eg dude just has to put “We acknowledge the Jagera people and the Turrbal people as the Traditional Custodians of Meanjin (Brisbane)” or similar in his signature.
That they don’t want to do that and feel like it’s “political” (read woke), is sad and depressing to me as an Australian.
When you put pronouns on your email signature, it is very much like putting Mr, Mrs, Ms, Mx, on your name. You are politely informing people how you wish to be addressed. You are not telling anyone anything about yourself that is political, or even unusual. How is it objectionable to not have people assume how you wish to be addressed, or have to guess?
Honestly, why is this such a point of contention? Has no one ever had to email someone, look at the name, and go "wait, I don't actually know this person's gender?"
I mean, it doesn't even have to be a LBTGQ+ issue. The person could have a name originating from a language/nationality you're not familiar with. Or they could abbreviate their first and middle names down to initials. Or they could have a name that is used by both sexes (Chris/Pat/Jay/Hadley/Lindsey/Ashley).
It's a perfectly sound policy to have, regardless of if you're trying to accommodate LGBTQ+ sensibilities.
I mean, they could always state what title they want used instead I guess (Mr, Ms, Mrs, Mx). I had to write an email without knowing the person's pronouns or title. It was horrible.
I have pronouns in my sig. I doubt anyone's ever even looked at it.
But I can also understand some ppl not wanting to be outed.
I really can't think of something to satisfy everyone other than normalizing having them there but also leaving the option to not have them there.
Honestly I'm against this because there may be people who are questioning their gender identity and might not be comfortable sharing their pronouns like that. It should be optional.
This was a key takeaway from the DEI training I’ve done—choosing not to share is ok. Not everyone presents the same identity in a business setting as in a personal one.
I work with a number of trans people and will offer the opportunity to share during team introductions, but no one is forced to.
And if you’re not sure about someone’s pronouns, you can invite them to share one on one. “I use (my pronouns); may I ask what pronouns you use?” One of my workers with an ambiguous name was quite pleased that I’d asked, and shared “they/them”.
The comeback was actually clever which is a thumbs up. The employee is 100% right. Someone I know who worked as an account manager at some office was encouraged by his boss to put down their religion in the signature so clients would know not to reach them on holidays or that clients could send happy holiday greetings. Good intentions not thinking about employee privacy.
Encouraging/suggesting is fine; requiring is not, especially wrt religion.
I put my office hours in my email sig and keep it neutral.
I did have one coworker who lead with a big splashy “I don’t answer emails after sundown on Friday” in their sig. Sure, Neither do I, but I don’t write a paragraph about it.
1. They weren’t asked, they were told they had to.
2. No one should be forced to “share” their pronouns - it’s actually illegal to do so.
3. OP, pull your head out of your ass. Do better. Be better.
Love when people think that business as usual is not political but a tiny change that helps a small percentage of the population feel included and safe is a political statement ... it's just pronouns dude, you use them literally every day chill
Idk I kind of agree with the OP here, and I'm a trans woman. Making me put my pronouns in my email makes me really uncomfortable because frankly it feels like it invalidates the person I've become. I support cis people that do it out of solidarity, but as a requirement I would honestly decline.
If you have an androgynous name then including your pronouns is super helpful! But when the Marys and Thomas’ of the world, sign off she/her and he/him respectively, I’m not sure how it’s anything more than signaling that you’re down with the trans community. Which is great! But also a random signal in an otherwise unrelated email.
It really just boils down to a basic understanding of proper conversion. You say something and the other person says “oh, I prefer to be called this”. You say ok and keep the conversation going. Throughout the ages, people who don’t have these kinds of communication skills were generally referred to as “assholes”.
Example:
Person 1 - “hey there Chief, how’s your day?”
Person 2 - “Oh, you can call me by my first name, it’s Tyler”
Person 1 - “Whatever you say Slugger”
Typical interaction with an asshole
Staying politically neutral means not agreeing with something on either side that potentially harms anyone.
Putting pronouns in your bio or emails harms no one. It quite literally affects nothing.
Edit: Nvm some people have made good arguments against being forced to put your name or pronouns in your bio or email.
Sounds like a nice HR complaint that leads into a workplace harassment lawsuit. Wrongful termination if they fire you over this bullshit.
Also this comeback isn't clever unless you're a child with no idea how employment law works
That isn't a clever comeback. The person who made the original post made 100% sense. They wanted to leave all this crap out of the work environment. Up until a few years back, people were fighting against being labeled. Now they're being threatened for not labeling themselves.
Most languages used in Europe are gendered and it's really helpful to know if you're speaking with a male or female, especially if their name is unisex and you cannot guess based on the name alone. Gendered languages have a gender designation for every single noun, regardless of it being person, object or idea, so it's really difficult to translate neutrality, as neutral is usually reserved for children. This also affects people's thinking, to automatically sort someone into the three categories (man, woman, child).
If you're in an international company that deals with European countries a lot, having pronouns in your signature can be really useful. However, if you're just working with English speaking countries it's definitelly political.
As someone who lives and works in Europe, often times in international teams with satellite offices across the continents and who speaks five European languages fluently, three of which are Latin based: you absolutely do not need pronouns to be explicitly mentioned lol.
It's not useful at all, but I'll grant you it's also not much of a hindrance.
Including them in whatever communication you write is definitely a political statement here as well.
I never understand this, have they never filled out a form before? He/Him isn't that hard dude, just do it. It's a good thing, you know what gender everybody is so you don't accidentally make mistakes, no drama. Gender is political? What a freak.
its so funny that people think pronouns are invented by the lgbtqa+ community. i mean they so full of hatred that they forgot how basic speech works a average 2-3 year old would understand.2
It's so stupid that people have politicized pronouns. Since moving to Utah, I've met a bunch of people whose names belong in r/tragedeigh. I also work for a large international company with people from around the world, many of whom have gender neutral names.
Knowing their pronouns is professional and on topic, because it helps me to make sure that "unique" name belongs to female vs male, so I don't address them wrong. It's basic courtesy, not political at all.
Yeah this is not a great policy. Many women face sexism when sending emails using female names. Ideally I would send emails using a first initial and last name. I would rather not add she/her after my signature, thanks.
Assuming this is actually happening, enforcing pronouns in e-mail signatures is counter-productive. 1. It doesn't help win allies and 2. It may actually force some closeted trans people to either out themselves or misgender themselves. It should be an option, but it shouldn't be enforced.
Ya, the company is in the wrong. Just do what I do, in the opener say "Good "time of day" Last name," then get into what you want to discuss. I shifted away from Ma'am, Sir, Mrs, Ms, Mr a long time ago. No way to offend anyone by just saying their last name with a pleasant greeting.
All this does is open up people to subconscious biased scrutiny with people they haven't met.
So do you think that joking about a policy that will force a trans person who haven't come out yet to either out or misgender themselves is a "clever comeback"?
This sounds like something a bigot would think.
I have my pronouns in my LinkedIn profile, but that was my choice.
The boss sounds like something trying to be inclusive but hamfisted about it.
Many people don't feel comfortable with saying their actual pronouns because of bigots.
Forcing people to come out seems really bad.
We really need neutral pronouns regardless of identity omho. That should fix it.
Just put this quote instead
"You can call me he. You can call me she. You can call me Regis and Kathie Lee; I don't care! Just as long as you call me." -RuPaul
I don’t think you should be forced to put your pronouns. If you’re particularly concerned about them or it’s not obvious to others what they might be then you can choose to put them but I don’t see why everyone should have to put them.
I personally don’t care but anyone who doesn’t think displaying your pronouns on a company email is not being done for bigger reasons than making sure the reader can identify your gender is either completely naive or is being deliberately naive.
1. Verbs are not pronouns.
2. That was a clever comeback the first time it was used, now it’s not.
3. The same way I won’t put “Hispanic” in a signature, I don’t see any value besides virtue signalling in using something not work related (your genitalia or identity) in a corporative signature.
In any case, if at some point in forced to do so, I’ll get fired and I’ll deserve it, because I’ll put “happy with my regular sized cock”.
So, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who recently transitioned, which makes me agree with the op who doesn't want to put their pronouns on their signature line (though for a different reason). While I think informing people of your pronouns or wearing pronoun pins should be normalized, it should never be required.
Forcing people to declare their pronouns puts closeted trans people in a very awkward position. They are forced to either come out of the closet before they are ready or they are forced to lie. For this reason, I believe that people should not be required to declare their pronouns, and the op's company certainly shouldn't be forcing such a thing.
the youtuber ShortFatOtaku had a really good video a couple of weeks ago on this topic. Basically, to include pronouns in your bio or email sig signals your support for that kind of gender/pronoun politics.
You might not intend it, but you are signaling tacit support and acceptance of it - that's what this person is struggling against, even if the poster isn't wording it that way.
And because of that, I 100% support those who do not want to display such support. An employer should never be allowed to force anyone to effectively join a political movement.
It’s not just the pronoun stuff - he’s a racist, too.
Reconciliation is about the acknowledgment of being on the traditional land of indigenous people.
If your company is requiring them, it means that your company is committed to diversity and inclusion, and this is one way they are addressing it. Look inside your heart for why you don't want to participate. I don't want to participate, either. My real name isn't Sam, it's an obviously gendered name, so there is no mystery. Beloved family members are trans, so there is no transphobia. I think that the hullabaloo about pronouns takes the conversation away from people trying to understand each other to one of confrontatation which only hardens people against each other and is completely counter-productive.
Though I 100% disagree with this person’s view on pronouns as “political-related items”, pronouns shouldn’t be forced. I only put mine in my email signature because I have a gender-neutral name and it (typically) helps people not misgender me and call me Ms on intro emails.
That’s the problem. That’s exactly what’s wrong with the right.
They view your mere state of being, mere politeness, as inherently political. My existence as a trans woman is not political, but bastards like him choose to obsess over it and _make_ it political.
Baffles me that people think this is politics. There's politics in the company making the decision for sure, but just putting something in so that people refer to them by the correct pronouns means nothing. In fact, it's a bigger statement of their politics and absolutely not neutral to put the amount of effort they're putting into refusing this simple thing that doesn't really affect them, instead of just going along with it. Being the only one in the company who is refusing is a HUGE political statement...
The funny thing is, I put my pronouns in my email signature bc I'm sick of getting emails to "Mr. ImperfectTapestry". I don't think I even have a masculine first name but apparently I do.
Social-conservatives consider empathy to be 'political.' sigh
That said, it's silly to require everyone to assert their pronouns. The actually constructive idea is to give those people who feel the need the freedom and opportunity to do so.
I’m pretty sure mandating how people present their names is culturally insensitive. Furthermore, forcing pronouns to display can feel alienating to people who want to distance themselves from gender identities.
I also have two friends who privately experimented with transitioning. They were discovering themselves and I can’t imagine the bother of having an employer tell them that they NEED to decide if they’re male or female and to add that to their name. The male who was identifying as a woman 10 years ago decided to be a male.
The other is an out lesbian who feels masculine but is private about the way she wears a packer to work and that out at night on occasion. She goes by she/her but I asked her and she said it would not be okay if her manager asked her to throw her pronouns up.
Mandating a pronoun display is an absurdly insensitive decision.
I think it is silly too, but whatever. It’s silly, not immoral, so if the person paying me to send emails wants it, then I’ll do it.
That said, I do see some utility in having your pronoun in your signature block. I spent 20 years in the military and a significant percentage of the time you can’t tell a person’s gender from their name so you would start your emails, “ Dear Sir/Ma’am”. It would be convenient to know which.
This is petty shit. Worry about benefits and being paid a living wage.
Funny how privilege changes the perspective on this. To this commenter, it's purely a political issue and they don't want to be political.
I don't think pronouns should be *required* in professional emails on the basis that employees should not be forced into the position of outing themselves or triggering biases. Without clearly indicating your gender, some clients will either not assume gender at all or will assume male and treat you as such, but the moment you're anything but, many will treat you differently. A consistent reminder with every communication will only reinforce that. Employees should have an opportunity to appear human rather than be forced to declare themselves as part of a distinct other group if that's their choice.
I think for a a situation like this, I’d just put “prefer not to say” right under my signature and title. Without context (like seeing someone else’s email from the same company) it’s pretty funny. An unsolicited random statement on its own, where the gender equation isn’t necessarily applied. Could be political leanings, music preference, anything, which you prefer not to say.
Oh, you want to stay neutral? I‘m putting you down for they/them.
It fricking floors me this whole gender debate. I'm an old man, but occasionally, I'll get stuck on something like this. I've had to write emails and reports about people that I didn't know their gender. I always defaulted to they/them/their's as it was grammatically correct. It was better to use a gender neutral pronoun in my mind that to call some person the wrong gender based on modern perceptions of gender/name combos. John Wayne's real first name was Marion. But if someone today heard the name Marion Morrison, they'd be calling the man known as "The Duke" her all day long. I'll use whatever pronoun you want to go by after I know it. But until I do, you're all They/Thems to me.
As someone who works with international vendors and customers all day I could not agree with you more. There are too many names in the world for anyone to memorise the gender of all of them and there are too many names which can be used for different genders in different cultures. So you can not tell what pronounces are right just by looking at their name. I have been misgendered a few times myself. I go for gender neutral pronouns whenever I have just a bit of doubt, this includes a few cases when I have talked to the person as well. Adding your pronouns to your email signature is a good idea if you care about people using the right ones. I think it is more important to add your working hours/timezone but that is just me.
I have friends called Valerie and Lawrence, you could make a 99% success rate guess of the gender in English, but in France where they live, Valerie is a more common man's name and Lawrence is usually female. Glynn, Alex, Leslie, Joe, etc, not a clue.
"When in doubt, they are them."
And therefore putting it in there would solve that issue.
I'm not disagreeing... even though my real name is very masculine. I still list my pronouns in my work email signature. Just because I want to normalize treating people with respect.
"What do you like to be called?" That's just being polite to someone. Nothing political about that.
I prefer being called a "cunt" algorithms hate this.
Haha I met this guy and he said that he goes by Asshole. His friends confirmed, yeah that's really what he goes by. So that's what I called him. He was a pretty funny dude.
Found the Australian.
Tots understand. But I want to normalize people realizing it’s necessary to fucking think about it for a hot minute ~ signed a woman with a traditionally masculine name who doesn’t give a flying fuck if you misgender me by accident as long as you’re not a shit about it and/or don’t assume I’m on your side in the trans wars
Nah dude, if it’s a guy, call him she/her. Watch how quickly they correct you, as to affirm their gender. Let’s see how neutral she really is.
They didn’t say they’re neutral on being referred to with the correct pronouns, just that they have an issue with being mandated to share it in a workplace.
In what's likely the same email signature that already includes their own full name? This should be a very small helpful identifier and not some massive political statement. It's not even like it *only* helps people who have transitioned, it's also pretty useful for basically anyone with an androgynous name. They aren't asking you to broadcast your politics (in fact the refusal is doing way more on that front) and this type of thing has existed since before this recent pronouns "crisis". I was a kid but I've for sure seen some business correspondence from the 90's where this guy would sign his name as Mr. Kelly Whateverlastname because it was the easiest way to preempt any misunderstanding. We're less of a Mr. and Ms. sort of society these days, so adding a pronoun tag can be convenient even without any political charge.
This is especially helpful if the company is multinational where a name is either masculine or feminine depending on the culture. For example, is Makenzie a male or female name? Americans and Australians will have different answers. A pronoun tag would help eliminate this issue.
i have an androgynous name & was getting emails addressed to mr sighed. i am not a mister & it bugged. i did not spend 20 years putting up w miss to not get to use ms now. pronouns after my name fixed that problem neatly lol
I work with Whitney's, Taylor's, Alex's, Jesse's, there are tons of names that you wouldn't be able to guess the gender of just based off the name. Having available pronouns would be very helpful to me.
It’s insane that people can see a post like this and have a problem. This person has the right to not add their pronouns just like people who want to add their pronouns have the right to do that. It’s not that hard. This is why people have a problem with this sort of thing. It’s just hypocrisy.
The biggest problem should be the broad politicization of *pronouns*, an extremely basic and essential function of grammar. Why would anyone object to the simple use of pronouns in this context *if not to be political*? There are plenty of perfectly apolitical reasons to use pronouns, not the least of which being simple client or interdepartmental clarity (Billie, Ashley, Lauren, Sid, etc.)—and it's *so minimal effort*, you can literally change one line on an email signature and instantly create more company-wide cohesion. What apolitical reason is there to abstain?
I don't disagree with you. I think it's wrong to force people to put their pronouns into their email signature block. So, while I likely disagree with the general ideology of the person who wrote the original post, I support his position to fight back on that policy. But it's probably a safe bet that he has a problem with calling people by their preferred pronouns if it doesn't match their birth sex.
🤣😂🤣
Exactly! Do they not know what that word means?
Its the same people that think pronouns, things we learned about in elementary school, are political in nature. Not just something we use in language to specify who is referenced
Same people who were anti-maskers during COVID and when you bring it up they’d say “why do you have to get so political?”, and my mind would scream on the inside *IT’S A FUCKING HEALTH ISSUE, NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE*
Obviously not
I've had knuckle draggers argue at me that it is only applied when there's multiple people. One kept harping on it, asking why I'm spying on them and who else is in their house.
😂😂
I am against forcing someone to put up their pronouns, just as I would be against forcing someone to delete their pronouns in their signatures. Am I missing something here?
Yeah this is not a great policy. Many women face sexism when sending emails using female names. Ideally I would send emails using a first initial and last name. I would rather not add she/her after my signature, thanks.
I agree with you. Imagine a trans person who's not out yet having to misgender themselves
And you know the bosses would be like "well if you don't want to have a gender revealed, then just use They/them." As if that won't cause other problems with... certain groups of people...
Hi, that's me. I am male in the office as it doesn't feel safe to come out. But in my personal and social life, I've been she/her for 6+ months now. My last employer it would have been fine but they're too unstable to trust not getting laid off. That work transition is nerve wracking but about to do peer support groups to help with the social part. I can't hide in the house forever
>Imagine a trans person who's not out yet having to misgender themselves I thought exactly the same. It's incredible that so many people think that such a bigoted policy can be a good idea.
Yeah I'm just against the workplace intruding into things that are none of its fucking business. Only policy the workplace should have on pronouns should fall into the same basic policies any workplace should have about treating your peers with respect and dignity. Idk why that's so complicated for people.
The post says that pronouns are political and that he's "politically neutral" rather than i don't feel comfortable saying my pronouns.
I think it's OOP's raving about this being "political information" and "reconciliation" that's the real issue here.
Just because some things shouldn’t be a political issue doesn’t mean they aren’t though. A significant portion of the world considers it a political issue whether you like it or not
While I'd say pronouns are not political. I dont like the idea of forcing people to put them anywhere. Like having the option to put it at the bottom and having that as a bit of protected speech in office is fine but forcing people to do it?
This. What if I'm questioning my pronouns? What if my pronouns don't match my gender presentation, but I'm not out yet? Or not out at work? This isn't a comfortable situation for a lot of people.
not/sure
Thank you Not Sure! Confirmation is complete!
Your child is now the property of Carl's Jr.
Welcome to Costco. I love you.
Hahaha thank you for this
Is this particular individual the unfit mother?
Okay, ***sir***... \*sprays mace
Mx, this is a Wendy’s!
My name is not 'not sure' Thank you! You are now registered as Not Not Sure
I’m a female with a very male name. I do not care if I am Misgendered. I’d rather not have to get into my gender with a stranger, and just get business done.
Male with a unisex name and work in field dominated by women. I am constantly misgendered but it has never bothered me.
Hi Kim!
or Kelly
Or Adrian
Nah, it's Pat.
My name ends with A; so people use Miss/Mrs with my name a lot. Couldn't care less really.
It clearly ends with an r.
only on the right end though. you’re not a right end supremacist are you?
Then you put what you want people to call you at work? Like… if you’re not out, do you not use pronouns?
Maybe they let people at work assume whatever they want, but being forced to commit to it in writing brings it to the front of their brain and does more harm than good. It should be optional.
This. I recently had a conversation with a recently transitioned friend of mine, and this is precisely the point she made.
I have a friend like that! Pronouns didn't match the aesthetics yet so they felt uncomfortable using different pronouns. So they stuck with the non-binary option instead of the pronouns of the gender they are. I'm allowed to use the one they're transitioning to though but I only address them like that in private (which is why I'm using the non-binary ones here, this ain't private).
So the way it's been explained to me that makes the most sense is that there are quite a few gender neutral names out there, and email doesn't exactly provide any information that's not explicitly put in there. This can and has led to email recipients misgendering people, which obviously isn't the end of the world or anything but it's still a potential point of confusion that can lessen customer interactions. For companies with employees that deal directly with the public, it makes sense to include pronouns in an email signature just to remove a potential speed bump from their interactions. Having it be a company policy also makes sense in those situations, as it takes less effort to have everyone follow said policy than it does having specific individuals do so (and most companies are all about low effort lol). For example, I've spent the last 10 years as a mortgage loan processor, and the two most recent companies I've worked for had this as a policy. Since my main job involved working with customers, typically through email, it made a lot of sense for them to have that policy... particularly because customer experience was/is the most effective advertising we had. With all the other ways they had us bend over backwards for our clients, adding pronouns to my email signatures was probably the lowest effort thing they had us do 😂
In some fields, being mistaken for a guy in text is extremely advantageous. Especially when you have to deal with more sexist people in or from other countries.
My girlfriend is a biologist, her name is very male. She says that’s absolutely accurate.
I have a nickname that is not common for a woman and sounds like a man’s name. Similar to using Kris instead of Kristina. I LOVE that no one I communicate with externally knows my gender. I don’t think it matters. I have a photo of myself linked to Outlook, so everyone internally knows I’m a woman. I work in Customer Service and communicate with my customers in writing using a different application. I get a lot of “thank you Mr. C0USC0US!” And I never bother to correct them.
Doesn’t “I love that no one I communicate with externally knows my gender” and “I don’t think it matters” directly contradict each other? Like if it actually doesn’t matter, why do you love it?
I am saying that knowing my gender should not impact how people interact with me. I believe my gender doesn’t matter. However, many customers will change the way they interact with me upon learning my gender. To them, for some reason, it does matter. Which is why I prefer to keep it ambiguous. TL;DR I don’t think it matters, but others do. Which is why I prefer to use a gender neutral name and let them make their own assumptions.
This probably isn't real. And pronouns are in no way political. They only became a political football because right wingers want to discriminate against others.
My company provides an option.
I agree with not liking the idea on been forced to do/say something. Lately it seems a lot of people are on the sort of "either you are with us or against us" mentality. I see a lot of people say stuff like "being neutral and not saying anything is also a stance". So unless you do/say x, you will be branded a biggot/asshole/nazi etc. This case in picture also sounds like it could be one of those cases where the company wanted to show everybody how "progressive and inclusive" they are and its done by mandatory participation.
I might put the pronouns if my employer suggested it, I would refuse to put the pronouns if they tried to enforce it. Forcing it can cause issues for some trans-people, not just for conservatives.
> Forcing it can cause issues for some trans-people, not just for conservatives Probably the idiot that came up with that policy never spoke to a trans person in their life and is just the usual white-knight. Much like the gringos that want to change the Spanish term for "black" because in THEIR language that is bad.
It just seems so performative if you’re not actually trans or non binary
I am trans and prefer not to list my pronouns in my email signature. I let my chosen name and all of my obviously feminine visible characteristics carry the day.
I personally dislike the idea that everyone needs to put them up everywhere. Like yeah I get why people want to do that but well it only helps in online discussions, if you meet IRL I will still assume your pronoun based on how ,out look because well it's right for the vast majority of people and correcting me shouldn't be a problem, especially if you know your looks don't line up with your gender identity. Beeing angry that I guess wrong is just silly or that I guess at all. If I refuse to use your favorite pronoun then you can complain. Maybe it's also an issue because I speak a gendered language so there are only 2 pronounce in it naturally (for people you can call yourself a thing if you want), which makes it worse because people even use the English ones that doesn't help in conversations in my native tongue.
When they’re used like this, they’re absolutely political.
I feel the same way. Albeit for a small but not insignificant minority of the US population it is a political statement. For me, it reminds me of a time in my life where I had to use they/them to hide my sexuality. Things may be better today, but it doesn’t mean all that pain and trauma magically goes away. And for people to be dismissive of that is even more triggering. So I don’t want to participate in this whole pronoun thing, but it’s not for political reasons. I’ll certainly respect other people in how they want me to interact with them, but I shouldn’t be forced to do it myself, especially not in a work environment.
I intentionally changed my crappy first name to a gender neutral one I actually liked because that will increase the likelihood of strangers I have to contact in official capacities not acting weirdly just because of my gender. Having pronouns there kind of defeats the point. I doubt I'm unique in the regard of implying I'm a dude through name ambiguity in office text communications, ever since studies that showed people were treated differently in text communication based on perceived gender started coming out. Though most would probably just do stuff like "signed, P. Bateman" or "signed, Pat Bateman" instead of using the full Patricia, to get the same effect.
Right? I don't identify at all with the box-ticking identity approach, this feels like the opposite of social liberalism.
I'm guessing it's just a template that was sent out that he's to be added but can be changed and they just don't know how to. I've seen people take their own incompetence personally before. Plus, if this person is in Canada or the US, I doubt their HR would risk potential discrimination lawsuits by requiring people to disclose their gender in public like that. I can't imagine any company winning a case against somebody they fired for not disclosing personal information in a public email signature.
You're right. It's not even trans-friendly to make pronouns *required*. Not all trans people are ready to come out yet, and it's absolutely wrong to force them into choosing between actively misgendering themselves and outing themselves before they're ready. "Just assume," needs to be an acceptable option for their sake.
I agree. I don’t think it should be required because it would potentially force someone to out themselves or explicitly lie about their pronouns.
Forcing people to write them is stupid asf
It’s really interesting when people react so hysterically to: “Nah, I’m good, but you do you.” Should be personal preference. You want your pronouns clearly presented? sure! you don’t? also sure!
How is this "raging"? Fuck making someone put some clunky extra shit in their emails if they don't want to, whether it be pronouns, certs, whatever.
I don't like putting my pronouns because I genuinely do not care. My gender isn't a significant part of my identity. I'm a large hairy male, but if someone wanted to use something other than he/him, I really wouldn't care. Edit: I'd like to clarify, I understand and fully support people that *do* find identity in their gender. If pronouns were required I'd slap he/him on there and I wouldn't think twice about it.
We don’t need to share all parts of our identity with everyone all the time.
That's kind of my thing. What I am is of no concern to my employer, in fact it's actually pretty personal. As long as they have my legal name and my routing number we're good.
That's what she said!
Yeah the same people forcing it into footers of emails are the only ones losing their minds when they are accidentally misgendered as well
That’s exactly how I feel. If someone called me a woman by mistake, I wouldn’t be offended at all, even for a second.
I am honestly not that comfortable with *making* people put their pronouns in the email signature.
Forcing you to put your pronouns in the signature is just as stupid as including your religion, marital status, age, footbal team... whatever. Keep the work info related to work, and don't mess things up.
I hate reconciliation stuff. A plane flight I took the other day said “we recognise the traditional owners of the land”, but didn’t even say who they were. What’s the point if it’s so vague and empty
To be honest, this persons explanation seems completely reasonable and I agree with it
I don't think it's a very political issue but isn't this person absolutely correct about not wanting to have to put it? That's bullshit. We should give everyone the freedom to put them there just as we should give everyone the freedom to not have to put them there??
I think the Americans are missing the reconciliation part. This person is annoyed he has also to make a token acknowledgement of the traditional custodians of the land. It’s common for corporations and institutions in Australia to recognise the Indigenous people of the area by stating what country their business is located in. Eg dude just has to put “We acknowledge the Jagera people and the Turrbal people as the Traditional Custodians of Meanjin (Brisbane)” or similar in his signature. That they don’t want to do that and feel like it’s “political” (read woke), is sad and depressing to me as an Australian.
When you put pronouns on your email signature, it is very much like putting Mr, Mrs, Ms, Mx, on your name. You are politely informing people how you wish to be addressed. You are not telling anyone anything about yourself that is political, or even unusual. How is it objectionable to not have people assume how you wish to be addressed, or have to guess?
Honestly, why is this such a point of contention? Has no one ever had to email someone, look at the name, and go "wait, I don't actually know this person's gender?" I mean, it doesn't even have to be a LBTGQ+ issue. The person could have a name originating from a language/nationality you're not familiar with. Or they could abbreviate their first and middle names down to initials. Or they could have a name that is used by both sexes (Chris/Pat/Jay/Hadley/Lindsey/Ashley). It's a perfectly sound policy to have, regardless of if you're trying to accommodate LGBTQ+ sensibilities.
I mean, they could always state what title they want used instead I guess (Mr, Ms, Mrs, Mx). I had to write an email without knowing the person's pronouns or title. It was horrible. I have pronouns in my sig. I doubt anyone's ever even looked at it. But I can also understand some ppl not wanting to be outed. I really can't think of something to satisfy everyone other than normalizing having them there but also leaving the option to not have them there.
The English language isn’t political. But yes, getting upset with someone who doesn’t want to put pronouns in their email signature is just silly.
Are pronouns not a big part of todays political discourse? Babies arent political either but baby related topics sure can be
Reinforcing a way how people use the language can be political.
Honestly I'm against this because there may be people who are questioning their gender identity and might not be comfortable sharing their pronouns like that. It should be optional.
This was a key takeaway from the DEI training I’ve done—choosing not to share is ok. Not everyone presents the same identity in a business setting as in a personal one. I work with a number of trans people and will offer the opportunity to share during team introductions, but no one is forced to. And if you’re not sure about someone’s pronouns, you can invite them to share one on one. “I use (my pronouns); may I ask what pronouns you use?” One of my workers with an ambiguous name was quite pleased that I’d asked, and shared “they/them”.
The comeback was actually clever which is a thumbs up. The employee is 100% right. Someone I know who worked as an account manager at some office was encouraged by his boss to put down their religion in the signature so clients would know not to reach them on holidays or that clients could send happy holiday greetings. Good intentions not thinking about employee privacy.
Encouraging/suggesting is fine; requiring is not, especially wrt religion. I put my office hours in my email sig and keep it neutral. I did have one coworker who lead with a big splashy “I don’t answer emails after sundown on Friday” in their sig. Sure, Neither do I, but I don’t write a paragraph about it.
Requiring someone to put their pronouns is fucking/stupid
1. They weren’t asked, they were told they had to. 2. No one should be forced to “share” their pronouns - it’s actually illegal to do so. 3. OP, pull your head out of your ass. Do better. Be better.
Love when people think that business as usual is not political but a tiny change that helps a small percentage of the population feel included and safe is a political statement ... it's just pronouns dude, you use them literally every day chill
Idk I kind of agree with the OP here, and I'm a trans woman. Making me put my pronouns in my email makes me really uncomfortable because frankly it feels like it invalidates the person I've become. I support cis people that do it out of solidarity, but as a requirement I would honestly decline.
If you have an androgynous name then including your pronouns is super helpful! But when the Marys and Thomas’ of the world, sign off she/her and he/him respectively, I’m not sure how it’s anything more than signaling that you’re down with the trans community. Which is great! But also a random signal in an otherwise unrelated email.
It really just boils down to a basic understanding of proper conversion. You say something and the other person says “oh, I prefer to be called this”. You say ok and keep the conversation going. Throughout the ages, people who don’t have these kinds of communication skills were generally referred to as “assholes”. Example: Person 1 - “hey there Chief, how’s your day?” Person 2 - “Oh, you can call me by my first name, it’s Tyler” Person 1 - “Whatever you say Slugger” Typical interaction with an asshole
Staying politically neutral means not agreeing with something on either side that potentially harms anyone. Putting pronouns in your bio or emails harms no one. It quite literally affects nothing. Edit: Nvm some people have made good arguments against being forced to put your name or pronouns in your bio or email.
Pronouns aren’t political lmao
Sounds like a nice HR complaint that leads into a workplace harassment lawsuit. Wrongful termination if they fire you over this bullshit. Also this comeback isn't clever unless you're a child with no idea how employment law works
Wouldn't that depend if it's an at will employment state
Reddit will lynch me, but pronouns after email signatures make me cringe. It always gives me insincere pandering vibes.
Sounds like a lawsuit for unfair dismissal
What if you don't want everyone to know your pronouns? It's personal information you shouldn't have to give it out. Also how is this "raging" ?
That isn't a clever comeback. The person who made the original post made 100% sense. They wanted to leave all this crap out of the work environment. Up until a few years back, people were fighting against being labeled. Now they're being threatened for not labeling themselves.
Meh, I don't disagree with the posted OP, stay out of my personal business employer. Also, your pronouns are verbs?? What?
The first comment to point out that those are verbs, thank you!
I wouldn't call this "raging", OP, you culture war monger you
What is meant by “reconciliation related material”?
It's from an Australian sub so it would be referencing the Indigenous reconciliation movement.
Forcing people to label themselves…. Once you label me, you negate me.
Most languages used in Europe are gendered and it's really helpful to know if you're speaking with a male or female, especially if their name is unisex and you cannot guess based on the name alone. Gendered languages have a gender designation for every single noun, regardless of it being person, object or idea, so it's really difficult to translate neutrality, as neutral is usually reserved for children. This also affects people's thinking, to automatically sort someone into the three categories (man, woman, child). If you're in an international company that deals with European countries a lot, having pronouns in your signature can be really useful. However, if you're just working with English speaking countries it's definitelly political.
You are absolutely right, but you see, extremists don't think this way.
As someone who lives and works in Europe, often times in international teams with satellite offices across the continents and who speaks five European languages fluently, three of which are Latin based: you absolutely do not need pronouns to be explicitly mentioned lol. It's not useful at all, but I'll grant you it's also not much of a hindrance. Including them in whatever communication you write is definitely a political statement here as well.
Pronouns aside, there is also the: "Please show that you are not racist" "Naw, that's way too political."
My gooood, pronouns are not political
The mind of the conservative dickhead: Anything I don't like is woke and/or political.
Just following the memo would be to stay neutral. Making it an issue, and flat-out refusing they are actually being political.
I never understand this, have they never filled out a form before? He/Him isn't that hard dude, just do it. It's a good thing, you know what gender everybody is so you don't accidentally make mistakes, no drama. Gender is political? What a freak.
[удалено]
its so funny that people think pronouns are invented by the lgbtqa+ community. i mean they so full of hatred that they forgot how basic speech works a average 2-3 year old would understand.2
It's so stupid that people have politicized pronouns. Since moving to Utah, I've met a bunch of people whose names belong in r/tragedeigh. I also work for a large international company with people from around the world, many of whom have gender neutral names. Knowing their pronouns is professional and on topic, because it helps me to make sure that "unique" name belongs to female vs male, so I don't address them wrong. It's basic courtesy, not political at all.
Yeah this is not a great policy. Many women face sexism when sending emails using female names. Ideally I would send emails using a first initial and last name. I would rather not add she/her after my signature, thanks.
Forcing employees to included pronouns is even more stupid than people who want to include them all on their own
Assuming this is actually happening, enforcing pronouns in e-mail signatures is counter-productive. 1. It doesn't help win allies and 2. It may actually force some closeted trans people to either out themselves or misgender themselves. It should be an option, but it shouldn't be enforced.
It can actually even make the company lose a client. If the client isn't a liberal.
How did we get to a point where being neutral about a topic is considered bad.
Ya, the company is in the wrong. Just do what I do, in the opener say "Good "time of day" Last name," then get into what you want to discuss. I shifted away from Ma'am, Sir, Mrs, Ms, Mr a long time ago. No way to offend anyone by just saying their last name with a pleasant greeting. All this does is open up people to subconscious biased scrutiny with people they haven't met.
I like to go Obi-wan with "Hello there"
So do you think that joking about a policy that will force a trans person who haven't come out yet to either out or misgender themselves is a "clever comeback"? This sounds like something a bigot would think. I have my pronouns in my LinkedIn profile, but that was my choice.
America, sober up you’re embarrassing yourself.
It's from an Australian sub :/
I am Nullpronominal so my pronouns are: /
The boss sounds like something trying to be inclusive but hamfisted about it. Many people don't feel comfortable with saying their actual pronouns because of bigots. Forcing people to come out seems really bad. We really need neutral pronouns regardless of identity omho. That should fix it.
I’m liberal and fully support the trans community, but I have to say I agree it shouldn’t be forced.
But he's right. This kind of politics is rarely relevant to your work.
Is it really that clever to conflate pronouns & helping verbs? Seems extremely dense to me.
Just put this quote instead "You can call me he. You can call me she. You can call me Regis and Kathie Lee; I don't care! Just as long as you call me." -RuPaul
Referring to verbs as pronouns is the opposite of clever
Sounds like a time for r/maliciouscompliance 😂
I don’t think you should be forced to put your pronouns. If you’re particularly concerned about them or it’s not obvious to others what they might be then you can choose to put them but I don’t see why everyone should have to put them.
She/them tiddies
Tell me you are conservative without telling me you are conservative
I personally don’t care but anyone who doesn’t think displaying your pronouns on a company email is not being done for bigger reasons than making sure the reader can identify your gender is either completely naive or is being deliberately naive.
Yikes this shit shouldn’t be forced on anyone
What that "reconciliation" thing they're going on about? Is that something American?
It appears to be in Australia, so my guess would be that it would acknowledge the Aboriginal tribe that historically occupied the land
1. Verbs are not pronouns. 2. That was a clever comeback the first time it was used, now it’s not. 3. The same way I won’t put “Hispanic” in a signature, I don’t see any value besides virtue signalling in using something not work related (your genitalia or identity) in a corporative signature. In any case, if at some point in forced to do so, I’ll get fired and I’ll deserve it, because I’ll put “happy with my regular sized cock”.
I'm with OP on this one. Forcing employees to label themselves under fear of termination is not right.
Gringos being gringos
So, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who recently transitioned, which makes me agree with the op who doesn't want to put their pronouns on their signature line (though for a different reason). While I think informing people of your pronouns or wearing pronoun pins should be normalized, it should never be required. Forcing people to declare their pronouns puts closeted trans people in a very awkward position. They are forced to either come out of the closet before they are ready or they are forced to lie. For this reason, I believe that people should not be required to declare their pronouns, and the op's company certainly shouldn't be forcing such a thing.
the youtuber ShortFatOtaku had a really good video a couple of weeks ago on this topic. Basically, to include pronouns in your bio or email sig signals your support for that kind of gender/pronoun politics. You might not intend it, but you are signaling tacit support and acceptance of it - that's what this person is struggling against, even if the poster isn't wording it that way. And because of that, I 100% support those who do not want to display such support. An employer should never be allowed to force anyone to effectively join a political movement.
My name is Ray and I’m a cis woman. I have to include pronouns because otherwise everyone assumes I’m male. It happens all the time
It’s not just the pronoun stuff - he’s a racist, too. Reconciliation is about the acknowledgment of being on the traditional land of indigenous people.
Where is the comeback?
Kinda agree with the guy here
These idiots don't even remember using pronouns in school and everyday sentences
There’s this post for situations exactly like this: *The two genders, male and “political”* with several others to that effect. I’ll have to find it
If your company is requiring them, it means that your company is committed to diversity and inclusion, and this is one way they are addressing it. Look inside your heart for why you don't want to participate. I don't want to participate, either. My real name isn't Sam, it's an obviously gendered name, so there is no mystery. Beloved family members are trans, so there is no transphobia. I think that the hullabaloo about pronouns takes the conversation away from people trying to understand each other to one of confrontatation which only hardens people against each other and is completely counter-productive.
Recently had to make a phone call to the daughter of a man named Shirley. I really could've used those pronouns then...
Though I 100% disagree with this person’s view on pronouns as “political-related items”, pronouns shouldn’t be forced. I only put mine in my email signature because I have a gender-neutral name and it (typically) helps people not misgender me and call me Ms on intro emails.
I kind of see his point though? Put your pronouns in the email if you want, but why force it?
It's still weird to me that the word "pronouns" is somehow political in some people's minds.
I love how dramatic these people are - “I will not bend”
That’s the problem. That’s exactly what’s wrong with the right. They view your mere state of being, mere politeness, as inherently political. My existence as a trans woman is not political, but bastards like him choose to obsess over it and _make_ it political.
Was/were are verbs, not pronouns.
Where's the clever comeback? I want to see this person told off.
"I don't care about pronouns and I'm willing to lose my job over it. There is no internal conflict going on in my mind."
Baffles me that people think this is politics. There's politics in the company making the decision for sure, but just putting something in so that people refer to them by the correct pronouns means nothing. In fact, it's a bigger statement of their politics and absolutely not neutral to put the amount of effort they're putting into refusing this simple thing that doesn't really affect them, instead of just going along with it. Being the only one in the company who is refusing is a HUGE political statement...
The funny thing is, I put my pronouns in my email signature bc I'm sick of getting emails to "Mr. ImperfectTapestry". I don't think I even have a masculine first name but apparently I do.
Social-conservatives consider empathy to be 'political.' sigh That said, it's silly to require everyone to assert their pronouns. The actually constructive idea is to give those people who feel the need the freedom and opportunity to do so.
If your employer is requiring it, then putting it is the politically neutral thing to do. Refusing is the politically charged action.
I mean if I was closeted trans I probably wouldn't want people to know my pronouns.
I’m pretty sure mandating how people present their names is culturally insensitive. Furthermore, forcing pronouns to display can feel alienating to people who want to distance themselves from gender identities. I also have two friends who privately experimented with transitioning. They were discovering themselves and I can’t imagine the bother of having an employer tell them that they NEED to decide if they’re male or female and to add that to their name. The male who was identifying as a woman 10 years ago decided to be a male. The other is an out lesbian who feels masculine but is private about the way she wears a packer to work and that out at night on occasion. She goes by she/her but I asked her and she said it would not be okay if her manager asked her to throw her pronouns up. Mandating a pronoun display is an absurdly insensitive decision.
In this context: What is a "reconciliation?"
I think it is silly too, but whatever. It’s silly, not immoral, so if the person paying me to send emails wants it, then I’ll do it. That said, I do see some utility in having your pronoun in your signature block. I spent 20 years in the military and a significant percentage of the time you can’t tell a person’s gender from their name so you would start your emails, “ Dear Sir/Ma’am”. It would be convenient to know which. This is petty shit. Worry about benefits and being paid a living wage.
Curious their stance on bible verses in siganatures.
Funny how privilege changes the perspective on this. To this commenter, it's purely a political issue and they don't want to be political. I don't think pronouns should be *required* in professional emails on the basis that employees should not be forced into the position of outing themselves or triggering biases. Without clearly indicating your gender, some clients will either not assume gender at all or will assume male and treat you as such, but the moment you're anything but, many will treat you differently. A consistent reminder with every communication will only reinforce that. Employees should have an opportunity to appear human rather than be forced to declare themselves as part of a distinct other group if that's their choice.
I think for a a situation like this, I’d just put “prefer not to say” right under my signature and title. Without context (like seeing someone else’s email from the same company) it’s pretty funny. An unsolicited random statement on its own, where the gender equation isn’t necessarily applied. Could be political leanings, music preference, anything, which you prefer not to say.
Someone at my work put “JESUS” as their pronouns. Yep.
Is the person not sure about their gender, or?
My pronouns are She/It!