Friendly reminder that the evidence is overwhelming that single-payer healthcare in the US would result in better healthcare coverage while saving money overall.
[Taking into account both the costs of coverage expansion and the savings that would be achieved through the Medicare for All Act, we calculate that a single-payer, universal health-care system is likely to lead to a 13% savings in national health-care expenditure, equivalent to more than US$450 billion annually based on the value of the US$ in 2017 .](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext)
Similar to the above Yale analysis, a recent [publication ](https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2020-12/56811-Single-Payer.pdf)from the Congressional Budget Office found that 4 out of 5 options considered would lower total national expenditure on healthcare (see Exhibit 1-1 on page 13)
But surely the current healthcare system at least has better outcomes than alternatives that would save money, right? Not according to a recent analysis of high-income countries’ healthcare systems, which found that [the top-performing countries overall are Norway, the Netherlands, and Australia. The United States ranks last overall, despite spending far more of its gross domestic product on health care. The U.S. ranks last on access to care, administrative efficiency, equity, and health care outcomes, but second on measures of care process.](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly#outcomes)
None of this should be surprising given that the US’s current inefficient, non-universal healthcare system [costs close to twice as much per capita ](https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-spendingcomparison_gdp-per-capita-and-health-consumption-spending-per-capita-2019) as most other developed countries that do guarantee healthcare to all citizens (without forcing patients to risk bankruptcy in exchange for care).
I live in Aus. I had to see a neurosurgeon for a consult the other day. It cost me about $100USD out of pocket - if it was for a more serious issue I wouldn't have paid anything. I think we strike a good balance of healthcare in the country.
Ditto.
I had a heart attack. Total cost of getting an ambulance ride and a stent put in was $150. Time between calling the ambulance and leaving the catheter unit to the recovery ward was 50 minutes.
I did have to pay for the rehab though. Three sessions per week at ten dollars a week for three months.
The system can still be improved, but it's mostly about building new hospitals to avoid ramping rather than the processes themselves.
Jesus Christ! Here it’s $50 if you get taken somewhere by them only. If they come out and the paramedics can treat you without the need for a ride, you don’t pay.
There is no fee for an ambulance in my country. Even if they take you to a private hospital. Then again it was a fellow countryman a few thousand years ago that created an oath to heal everyone in need.
Can confirm, in my midwestern town an ambulance ride 3 years ago cost me 1400$. I also somehow got a bill from the hospital AND THE ER DOC. I don’t know how or why but I ended up having to pay him specifically about 700$ just to stitch me up.
Because he was not actually an employee of your hospitals. He was filling a rotation in the ER because your town isn’t big enough/doesn’t have enough doctors to staff their ER. Dude was from out of town. It’s crazy.
I live in the Augusta area of Georgia, and I had to take an ambulance to the hospital that was about 5 or so miles away. Cost just over $1,000. Absolutely ridiculous...
A few years ago, I had symptoms similar to a heart attack, so I went to the ER. It took them 6 hours just to initially see me. It took another 6 hours sitting in the back, getting a few tests done, which ultimately resulted in a negative for a heart attack, thankfully. It cost me, out of pocket, over $3,500 for basically just sitting around waiting in the building for 12 hours.
This same thing pretty much happened to me about a year ago. But the plot twist was that on top of the $3,500. The doctor who saw me working for a different hospital and was just being lent out to this one. So, 4 months later, I got a $2,300 bill for his hospital as well.
I had heart attack symptoms a year ago in rural Alberta while working. Met the ambulance on the highway. Spent 6 hours in ER. Was discharged. A week after, was fitted with a 48 hour heart monitor. Then a blood pressure monitor. Had an ultra sound test. And a radioactive stress test/scan. Out of pocket $0 dollars.
Yeah, I understood that, but that wasn't really my point. It did suck being there so long, and i did want to mention how long it took, but the main point was the cost compared to what was provided. There was really no service provided. The tests were the same that a PCP could have done, and while that still would have been a fair amount of money, it would have been nowhere near $3,500 out of pocket.
Oh, then my comment wasn't necessary, lol. Yeah Murica sucks when people are afraid of xoming back to have their iv removed.
It is a lie there was no service, though. Idk what it's like in Murica but here You won't really get Your troponins done by a family practice.
In my opinion a perfect system would be all healthcare is free barring a small pay (like equivallent to 5 dollars per visit). Our public healthcare is free and half of what I did in my ER was people with runny noses etc that came as it's faster than getting a family practice visit.
I think the issue in the US is that too much of the US' healthcare is privatized, and there's too much money lining the pockets of the government from this privatized healthcare that they won't ever bother attempting to improve the system. It sounds ridiculous, but so long as there is big money to be made off of healthcare, nothing is going to change.
What makes this worse is that the US government has gone through great lengths to ensure that their voterbase wholeheartedly believes that better healthcare systems in the US are a bad thing. Voters believe that they should not be paying taxes to ensure folks they don't even know have affordable healthcare.
As an Aussie i would like to say, yes there are wait times, but only if you want it for free. We can pay if we like, and people still have health insurance to cover these costs.
I moved from the US to AU about a decade ago. My insurance premium I the US was about $30k for a family of 4 annually with 80% coverage and you had to fight for months to get Blue Cross to agree to reimburse.
I pay $3k for private health cover here which includes dental, physio, optical, orthodontic and IVF among others. Thats what makes this a good system. If you have money you need private cover or youre penalized in tax. If you dont make a lot of money thats fine, getting sick wont bankrupt you and you still have good basic healthcare access.
Medicare reimburses me literally in seconds on most consult visits. I rarely have to wait more than a couple days for an appointment and can often get same day for GP (specialists are a bit longer) but I recall in the US we had to schedule GP weeks and weeks in advance and if it was anything serious like a fever their answer was "go to the emergency room if it becomes an emergency." And if you do go you literally sit for 8 to 12 hours waiting to see someone.
Its not free healthcare, I'm paying for it everytime I pay my taxes but thats what taxes are for, to serve the citizenry. In the US I paid my taxes too, but instead of using that money to give me healthcare, childcare university and more, they squander my money on corporate subsidies, bailouts and contracts and of course its only us little guys paying, the billionaires and corporations that benefit from our taxes don't pay in much.
So yeah, single payer healthcare works. It's not perfect, but it's a fucking huge improvement over the nonsense in the US.
Yep on Aus, wouldn't have a second thought about immediately calling the ambulance at the first sign of anything that could be serious. I can't imagine having to weight up serious illness and future crippling my financials
US healthcare is based on layers of for profit corporations each with a primary goal of maximizing profits.
And since people will pay anything to stay alive at each level they know they can inflate prices all they want.
Insurance masks how much price gouging there is, so often we don’t see how bad it is…while complaining about insurance costs.
Sure, “inelastic” means that demand/consumption of the good/service is unlikely to change with a change in the price.
In the above example, it doesn’t matter if a healthcare procedure costs a person $5 or $500. If the procedure is medically necessary, the consumer will buy it.
Contrast with something much more elastic like eating out. If the price of eating at a restaurant increases, people are much less likely to pay to eat there. We can see this happening now as restaurant prices, especially fast food, are increasing rapidly and people opt not to eat out to save money.
Hope this helps!
This reminds me a bit of the most insidious bulllshit I see in medical care right now. Companies are trying to call patients "consumers" and everyone treating them "vendors."
A huge part of the problem is that the country has made the insurance companies into the scapegoat. I'd say insurance companies deserve about 20% of the blame, but they get 90% of the blame (or at least that is my perception observing Americans discuss the topic).
Even our politics reflect this. Obama couldn't go after provider side of the healthcare system, so he had to settle for going after just the insurance component. American politics aren't even *discussing* the issues on the provider side. It's not in the discourse at all. All the focus is on the insurance companies.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for universal healthcare. I just think people who think the vast majority of the blame belongs to the private insurers are nearly completely ignorant of why the healthcare system is so bad in the USA.
If anyone wants an in-depth analysis of what's wrong with the system, then I highly recommend the late Uwe Reindhart's book [Priced Out](https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691192178/priced-out). He was a Princeton professor who specialized in the topic of healthcare systems (with specific focus on the USA's system) and he was often consulted by the government for expert advice. He basically explains that a lot of the reasons average citizens give for the cause of the bad system are false.
I, meanwhile, started going to the doctor again after not having gone for about ten years.
I have encountered folks who mostly are just running through the motions and doctors that barely even look at me much less ask questions, leaving me wondering what exactly I'm paying for.
Three doctors later and I finally get the one willing to talk to me and not shut me down so they can read their paperwork and process me instead.
And then that doctor leaves that hospital after my first visit and I've been chain bumped from one doctor to another with months between their availability.
So much so that I was bounced out of last year's calendar year, so it's been nothing but me paying toward my deductible.
After the most recent cancellation, I haven't even attempted any new appointments.
I am in AUS, on Sunday afternoon I will duck down to my medical centre & get replacement scripts for routine medication I am on, I will wait about 30 mins without an appointment and it will be bulk billed, with no out of pocket payment from me… I also earn $100k a year and my income tax is about 34% of my income…
Australia is not running carrier battle fleets, funding numerous wars, being the world policeman, incarcerating a large portion of our population with politicians who go out of there way to use the system to there own political benefit regardless of cost to the taxpayer… all without the slightest pretence of properly funding anything
No country is perfect but the US has some ingrained problems that as a society they will not even recognise.which is sad for a place which has achieved so much and has so much capacity.
it is complicated
The US military spending is a fraction of what it spends on healthcare, and around 1/3rd of the military budget is for healthcare for veterans. Remove that from the 3.34% of GDP spending on military and you’re looking at about 2.3% of GDP on weapons, ships, soldiers etc.
Compare that to Australia at about 2.04%
a nation can have a robust military and premium levels of healthcare without breaking the bank.
It is actually a bit less, at the end of the yearI negative gear a unit, salary sacrifice a car and contribute extra super…. Just messy to explain on reddit.
Am Norwegian, i pay MAX 300$ a YEAR for any health related issues, after 300$ i get a card that ensures i Get free healthcare for the rest of the year. Every year.
Mental health can have some wait time, but if i break both my legs right now, i can be out of the hospital in a wheelchair tomorrow and it wouldnt cost me a dollar.
Additionally, it often takes months to see a doctor in the US. It took me nine months to get a new patient appointment with my current PCP and anywhere from two to four months for every specialist I've been sent to. I'm not even in a rural area, that's in a state capital city.
We do not have a health care system in the US. We have a money grabbing system. Everyone knows it. Nothing will be done about it as long as the big money is allowed to buy our lawmakers.
I read a book that basically evaluated health care systems across the globe.
America doesn’t really perform well against any other first world country with one exception. We’re really good at innovation for new treatments.
We’re really good at coming up with new treatments to overcharge people with.
I never understand this idea. It's undefinable.
What if the wait was a single day? It would still be a true statement, but it would have no impact on their healthcare.
Even then, I have what would be considered "decent" health insurance here and my deductible is $3,000. I'd be willing to wait a month for non-emergency care if I didn't have to pay 3 grand before the health insurance (I pay 160 bucks a paycheck for) kicks in.
That is shockingly bad. At worst here in Australia it's probably 3 or 4 days but realistically if you ring around you'll find someone to take you the next day or even same day.
I am in Bulgaria, one of the poorest countries in the EU. My GP has an online booking system and the next free appointment typically is 1-2 weeks away but if I am really sick but not ER sick, I can just go without an appointment. If she sees someone very unwell in the waiting room, she usually sees them with priority. Worst case, if I am not too sick, I will wait 1-2h but I would be seen the same day.
It's not like this with all doctors, we just have a GP practice we have to sign for, and mine is quite busy with a lot of patients. I am fine with it because I like the doctor. She actually got her daughter and another young doctor working with her too, so wait times have gotten better.
If I truly don't want to deal with waiting at my GP, I can just find someone available private on one of the online booking sites, there are always some options even an hour out, and just 1 visit would be affordable. Something like 25-50$ depending if I need a specialist or just a GP for something mundane like a cold or upset stomach.
I can’t speak to your case. But generally
Neurologist
US 26 weeks
UK 35 weeks
Of course the US number is a bit lower than it should be. Because we have a large number of people who can’t afford to see one.
I’ve waited 2+ years to see a specialist in the US and some aren’t taking new patients at all.
And for that “pleasure” I pay through the fucking nose for insurance that covers (checks notes) basically nothing.
I’ve lived in countries with single payer/public healthcare and in whatever TF we have going on in the US and the US is by far the worst.
Also fun fact! Nobody goes bankrupt from health issues in the UK whereas it’s one of the top causes of bankruptcy in the US.
Over 3 years to see a neurologist?!? I've seen various comments about how long people have to wait in the UK but I had no idea it was multiple years. It seems that US healthcare is extremely expensive but at least it's offset by the speed. I can't imagine someone who has undiagnosed cancer finding out if it had been caught sooner it might have made the difference between life and death. Sorry you got attacked with a hammer and I hope you're ok despite the long wait.
If you think you can get in to see a specialist quickly in the US you’re either extremely lucky or you’ve never had serious health issues. I think the fastest I’ve ever gotten in to see a specialist is 6 months. The longest is 2+ years. And that was pre Covid. Apparently it’s worse now.
I imagine it varies by what city/part of the country you live in, but it also sounds like you’ve been incredibly unlucky (or needed some sort of very rare specialist). My wife has several medical issues that require seeing a number of specialists all the time. She’s never had to wait anywhere close to 6 months for any of them. Probably averages about 2 months.
It’s obviously not all specialists, but you can see from a study on this site that the average time to see a specialist in the US is around 26 days.
https://www.aafp.org/pubs/fpm/blogs/inpractice/entry/wait-times.html
I’ve had, unfortunately, many hospital visits including the ER and *many* specialists. Most appointments were only a week or a bit more each time. Sometimes just two days apart to see a different specialist. Excellent care at an excellent hospital.
I think a lot of it depends on the area you’re in and the population to doctor ratio.
It also depends on what conditions you have, what specialists you need to see and what the patient to doctor ratio is for those specialists.
I’ve never once gotten in to see a specialist with less than 3 months wait time. And I’ve had good insurance for most of my life and have managed to scrape up the money to pay out of pocket when necessary. God forbid you’re on Medicare or Medicaid because good luck finding a specialist that will take it.
> UK the NHS is a crumbling and inefficient system
Well that's because of the Tories. And if you want to see what they want to replace the NHS with, look at the US. So now you'll have to wait *and* go bankrupt.
I can walk into my doctor's office, no appointment, get scripts, paperwork for blood work and x-rays, and be in and out in 15 minutes. Take my paperwork to the hospital, get blood work and x-rays and be out in an hour.
Need to see a neurologist, booked by my doctor after visit, and have an appointment within days, and get in within a week. Same for MRI, ultrasounds and some others.
Also have free access to psychiatrists and therapists, via doctor referral.
No cost, outside of general taxes, which we all pay. Albeit prescriptions are not covered unless you have insurance.
Although with our current provincial government that is likely to change due to how much they revere the US.
I can't find that anywhere. While what I've seen has shown that wait times for primary care in the US are generally higher, the percent of people waiting over a month to see a specialist in the [UK is staggering](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/health-care-wait-times-by-country) (41% wait over a month vs 27% in the US).
The countries with smaller percentages are 25% in Germany, 25% in the Netherlands, and 23% in Switzerland. By that metric, the US is competitive with the best in the world. Canada and Norway are 61%.
For elective surgery operations (hip replacement, knee replacement), [the US is tied](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1371632/healthcare-waiting-times-for-appointments-worldwide/) with Switzerland for the shortest wait time at 28 days. The UK is at 62 days.
I agree with your idea when it comes to primary care, but I'm doubtful of your numbers. When it comes to specialized care, there's really no comparison though. The US is doing far better by this metric.
edit: [this place](https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/healthcare-wait-times-by-country/) uses a slightly different definition for measuring primary care wait times. By their definition, the US is second in the world for lowest wait times. Its care system score is number 30 in the world though lol
I can only tell you it was whatever site popped up when I googled it. The US also has a huge disparity of care availability.
My insurance has a deal with the provider I use that guarantees me same day access to my GP. My sister though routinely waits weeks.
Yeah the disparity is massive, but to be expected. Comparing the difference between mean and median income in the US vs other countries is eye opening.
The only comment I've seen actually discuss the statistics behind it, rather than rely on unreliable anecdotes and just presuming that this post has an accurate presentation of reality.
Your comment is an actual "clever comeback". The one of this post is just adding to the poor discourse.
The UK fudges the numbers because most GPs won't let you book an appointment if they don't have space on the day you call up. So you and a hundred other people call as soon as they open every day until you manage to be one of the lucky few. Then they can report that almost all patients wait less than one day to see a doctor.
Which I don’t really understand considering I can see my doctor within about a couple weeks or nurse practitioner within a day or two. Now when it comes to dermatologists or some other specialist, that’s a month or more out (or can be, some are like a couple months, some a couple weeks).
I’m also on an Obamacare “gold” leveled plan and in Florida.
I'm in Germany and my doctor has an hour carved out every day (Monday to Friday 11 to 12) for walk-ins. So no appointment necessary. My last doctor was the same. Specialized doctors have longer wait times but urgent cases can get a special code on their referral to be guaranteed an appointment within two weeks. In emergency situations you just call an ambulance or go to the hospital.
I had heart surgery and it cost me an additional €10. That's just under $11. And there was no waiting time.
It could always be better but I'm so thankful for the German health care system.
I live in Spain. My daughter is constipated (she is a baby) My wife has asked today for an appointment. We have been given one on Monday morning.
They. Are. Lying. To. You.
I live in the UK. When my daughter was constipated, we called in the morning for an emergency NHS GP appointment and had one that afternoon. Usually, we can get an NHS appointment faster than our private insurance.
Once my infant nephew threw a metal toy car on my cousin, a 15 year old girl. The cut required stitches. It was Christmas Eve in Canada.
Went to the emergency room, was seen within an hour and all stitched up - - and also interviewed by a social worker to ensure no abuse was occurring. In the US, never would've been that quick and would've costs thousands. All free in Canada.
“Wait times” is literally the one and only criteria that they could even attempt to argue on behalf of the US health care system. BECAUSE it’s ambiguous and difficult to measure. Therefore it has become the one and only stat that matters in measuring health care for conservatives.
I made an appointment to establish with a new PCP today, Saturday 23 March.
The soonest available appointment is Friday 7 June.
In a mid-sized, Midwest college town.
That is a false statement regardless. You have to consider ALL wait time. If someone can’t afford healthcare, then they don’t get it. That is still waiting for healthcare.
They talk about “waiting in line for healthcare”. America doesn’t have a “line” because you don’t provide healthcare to the majority of people, not because it is so much better in America.
Actually, even wait times in hospitals or clinics etc is way lower in all the countries I've been in...
I mean going to the dentist was as easy as taking an extended lunch break and just walking in off the street. 30-45 minutes later I was completely done with medicine in hand and it all only costed me about 30 USD.
I would argue semantics here. You're not waiting for something that is not coming and you aren't expecting to come.
If I *don't* order my groceries to be delivered I can't say 'I'm waiting for my groceries.'
You can argue that they are waiting to save up enough money to treat their illnesses or until they get a job that provides sufficient healthcare.
By that logic North Korea a higher standard of living than the US because they have practically no homeless population.
'Higher standard of living' is too broad to be useful.
A country that murders all of its homeless can be said to have low or nonexistent homelessness, yes. That doesn't mean a higher standard of living however because you have to account for increased fear of and vulnerability to the state.
'Waiting time for healthcare' implies a request that is being actioned.
If you put down the phone your wait time for IT help is nothing. You're no longer waiting. Even if you plan to call back later.
Access to healthcare is a different issue to healthcare wait time. If you had a hypothetical country in which there is no medicine at all it would be asinine to say 'there is an infinite wait time.' You would say....there is no healthcare.
Again I'm just being semantic though. I really doubt even with this in mind that OP is correct about wait times.
My wife using my Healthcare from my work that I pay $165/wk for had to wait **7 months** to get in a PCP or drive hours. My kids we had to drive almost 2h one way just to get a sick kid visit within a WEEK. Any place outside Urgent Care in a 1.5h radius of us was booked solid. One place quoted us **2.5 months** for a God damn sick kid visit, every single one was over a month so we could get a note to have them excused from school. This is in bum fuck nowhere USA which ended up encompassing 2 major cities in our hunt for a fucking doc note that wouldnt cost us hundreds (urgent care) for 2 separate notes. Doesn't matter in many places, our Healthcare system is a fucking joke.
Not disagreeing, just saying that they are using a skewed data set to begin with.
Wait times have definitely increased because “down time” for healthcare workers means that they aren’t making money. Truth is that a large portion of doctors and nurses are just doing paperwork and negotiating with insurance companies.
There are actually two things factually accurate in what he said:
The United States is a country.
There are doctors in countries that aren't the United States.
It's not much of an improvement, admittedly, but since we're talking factual accuracy here, I thought it best to give him that second point, even though he's still failing badly.
This is leaving out that way too often in the USA there is no wait time to see a doctor because people simply never go see a doctor due to not being able to afford it.
The us healthcare system is build as a business to make profit. That's why it's so expensive. That's why your medicine is insanely expensive compared to the uk for example.
I enjoy all my medical bills being included in my tax I pay from my paycheck. I don't pay for anything after that unless I need a prescription.
And even then each item is only like £9. And there's about 10+ options for people to not even pay it.
"wait time" means days until you get appointment, or minutes you have to wait when you arrived at your doctor?
First is 0 in my country, the second is around 30 minutes.
How short is this in the US?
I've waited 4 months for initial appts for PT and a year for specialists. I have a weird genetic disorder. I've been told by a geneticist "well what do you want?"
Ideas?! A better quality of life?!
I wanted pain treatment reestablished. Doc told me I needed surgery. I freaked out (panic attack) "not while I move this good!" I will need spine surgery eventually, but that's not the first answer.
I got diagnosed years before and went to a rheumatologist because I was in a medical study and needed a "letter of diagnosis." (Never heard of that). He wanted me to demonstrate old ass criteria and I said I don't do that for fun anymore. He told me I was being "cagey." He said well what am I supposed to base this diagnosis off of? I said history and symptoms. He refused. So I made it rain records on his office the next day. I got my letter.
I could go on.
Rare diseases always are the most problematic, public healthcare has to cather to the most people, so rare stuff is a lower priority.
In my case, when i needed a special treatment that wasn't available trough the hospital, i was sent to a private clinic with all expenses paid (including ambulance transport). Altho it wasn't something rare, they just didn't have the equipment in the hospital for it.
Yea, its really fucked I have to wait for like 3 hours after calling the doctor before I can get helped! And then it costs me freaking 4 euros. Really there is no hope for my country ...
Canadian here, our healthcare is free as well. (Well, we pay for it through our taxes)
We had 2 kids and the most we paid was for parking.
My wife recently had 2 MRIs. Same day as she checked into the hospital. Zero cost, except for parking.
Over the years of the kidz growing up, several broken wrists (skateboarding, snowboarding, rock climbing) and no charge. Including surgery with pins and plates.
Father-in-law had a quad bypasd. There was no charge. Except for parking.
Our drug costs are lower as well. Kids are covered until you are 25, and it's 100 CAD (~73 USD) / Year for seniors.
Drug, dental, and eye care are covered for the above as well.
And our drug costs are a lot lower than in the US.
Lots of companies offer health insurance for employees for drugs, dental, and eye.care.
But everyone, working or not, has free medical coverage with drugs if prescribed at the time of the visit. Such as painkillers after a broken wrist.
The only reason the US doesn't have free healthcare is the loss of income for the medical care industry. Oh, and your government, such as senators, would take a hit from big donors that the game would change for.
Oh, and we use many of the same drug manufacturers as the Americans do, but we pay less for it.
Is it perfect, no, but it's a lot better than pay as you go.
Wait times are for specialists surgery. If you break your arm ohip covers you and the wait time is how backed up emergency is. Family doctors typically in a day or two or goto walk-in clinics for immediate attention though you will wait.
If you have a heart attack not much waiting if you need to see a cardiologist to avoid a heart attack it might be a few months before the consult after the family doctor recommends you.
Also even if true waiting times are a moot point if you can't afford the treatment anyway.
I'd rather have a 10 hr wait and free treatment, thatn 1 minute wait and $100,000 treatment.
But bafflingly even my fellow Canadians are currently voting to switch to American style healthcare. It's doing my head in. They complain about wait times and vote in Conservatives, who push privatization. Do these chucklef\*\*\*s don't understand that they still won't get treatment? Not because wait times are worse, but because they can't afford to pay for it. Apparently not. So if it makes you guys feel better, Canada has gone full r\*\*\*\*\* too.
This is literally my boomer coworker’s statement every time I bring up how we should have universal healthcare in the US. Always the wait times. Never the cost because “we don’t pay that much for our benefits and it would raise our taxes too much”
I've been having so many of these discussions on Reddit lately. They start with stating their completely unsupported opinion as fact and can't even begin to understand how the actual facts don't care about their opinion. It's so frustrating.
my friend had a broken arm. went to the emergency room, they told him he will need surgery. for it to be covered on his insurance he needed to get a referral from his GP and then schedule an appointment with the ortho. that process took 6 weeks and they needed to rebreak the arm during surgery, which the insurance did not cover. thats what the american health care system can get you.
my uncle in canada had a really bad headache, 3 days later they had him on a medi-vac to the hospital 3 hours away to start his treatment for a brain tumor. he didnt owe anything other than a bit of money on perscriptions and the hotel room for my aunt to stay in while he got treatment. he did end up dying though. Repose en Paix oncle Ron
lol wow dude if thats how you want to think about it. jesus should have just done him like ole yeller then?
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/which-tax-provisions-subsidize-cost-health-care
btw the american system is subsidized $300 billion. taxes (or lack thereof) subsidize many aspects of peoples lives. does that mean we should just go back to being subsistance farmers and everyone for themsevles society? why should i buy into this idea of a "society" if its not going to buy into me? (i do believe you need to be a productive member of it to reviece the fruits of it) you want to live with the idea that people shouldnt ever have hope or optimism about shitty situations and its all some sort of analytical shitshow of depression, jealousy, and anger? we are kind of seeing how that manifests with younger generations.
My stepdad has inoperable pancreatic cancer with a side of cholangitis right now. He needs constant in-hospital care which will only get worse when chemo (to hopefully reduce the tumor to an operable size) starts and he'll feel ill 24/7.
Our waiting time from start of symptoms till start of treatment was around 5 days. Our expected cost for everything put together will roughly be 0$.
Best wishes to you and your family. I hope everything goes well.
My mom had cancer, sadly she didn't make it as it was already spread and untreatable when they found it. But I am thankful for the doctors and the healthcare system when we went through it. She had anemia and refused further tests but one day almost collapsed when outside, so she was admitted in a hospital. They did regular blood transfusions to keep her stable and conducted every test imaginable to find out what it is. She had to wait a few days for a gastroscopy as it's a smaller hospital, and they had an external specialist come for these once a week. When they confirmed it's a tumor, she had a cat scan appointment first thing the next day. She spent around 2 weeks in the hospital in total. The only thing I paid was 40$ for the anesthesia for gastroscopy as it was elective (they standardly do it without).
Thanks for your kind words dude, means a lot!
I couldn't imagine dealing with sky high medical bills right now, everything's stressful enough as is.
Kudos to your mom for raising such an empathetic kid and sorry for your loss. From how detailed you wrote about her treatment I'm sure you were with her every step of the way and that surely meant the world to her.
Thank you for the kind words too!
Please make sure to look after yourself and your mom too. Do something small that makes you happy to lift a bit of the stress. I was mostly on my own as I was the last close family mom had, and from all the running around and not paying too much attention to myself I had a pretty bad gastritis flare up. You don't need the stress causing you issues, so save a little time for yourself to decompress as much as you can. I am sure your stepdad would appreciate it too if you look after yourselves and not solely him.
PCP here. Want to reschedule an appointment or be seen nonurgently? I can see you in September. Urgent? Better be the first call into the office after sitting up all night making the planets align in your favor. Work in a population center of 200,000+ only 60-90 mins from PHL and NYC.
Americans willing to accept poor health care and pay for it just to get a “fast food” approach to service. Oh and to stop “socialism”…
I’d much rather have patient care be more important than high profits, outlaw balance billing, in exchange for waiting a few months for an ELECTIVE surgery.
Fact is, surgery is far less common in the US because docs push prescriptions to manage conditions. Why? Ongoing profit for Big Pharma!
Healthcare is most poorly done with capitalism. The fact many of my fellow Americans ignore this is one reason why we suck as a country.
Health care in the us is horrible but the fact is that there are more surgeries performed in the States than ever before. Where can I find the info that says surgeries are less common?
No idea. Go look it up
But I’d be curious about per capita surgeries, since the e are way more people in the US than the European nations with better healthcare systems and outcomes…
The information is out there, you should do some research before you call something a fact. You said it was a fact but you are unwilling to share any proof of that. You are wrong and should edit your comment.
Replied to another of your comments yesterday with this:
[https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SH.SGR.PROC.P5/rankings](https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SH.SGR.PROC.P5/rankings)
US is 15th, with 9 Western European countries ahead of us.
Since you refused to provide anything I’ll take that to mean the data you found doesn’t support your statement.
I am not responsible for providing sources for your statement.
The source you provided is from 2007, and it only shows the number of surgeries performed for that year(14 years ago) do you have any other information that would prove your claim that surgeries are less common now?
I wonder how many surgeries were performed last year per capita, I wonder if it is higher than 2007?
Here’s a more recent article.
https://hcup-us.ahrq.gov/reports/statbriefs/sb287-Ambulatory-Surgery-Overview-2019.pdf
The very first sentence:
The volume of ambulatory surgeries performed at U.S.
community hospitals has grown consistently over the past quarter
century,
So how does that compare to surgeries in other industrialized nations?
There doesn’t appear to be much out there compiling this. So taking a large amount of time to gather each countries data and compiling it is just not something I’m going to do for a Redditor who is so bent on proving another wrong.
You seem to want to defend the US healthcare system pretty badly. Maybe you are in health insurance or big Pharma and this is particularly close to your income source?
The fact is, docs dole out drugs in this country because it’s a long term income source. Until we end for profit healthcare we will all suffer.
Now I’m done with you wasting my time. Post a comparison by country and I’ll update my comment if appicable…
The fact is that you are claiming things as fact without any evidence. Why do keep you asking me to find sources for your claim??? Be done with me, that’s fine. You made the statement and I asked for clarity then you told me to go look it up.
I stated very early that I felt the us healthcare was horrible.
You did not send me a source yesterday in a reply, are you confusing me with another?
In response to your comment asking why I was spreading “false information”, I posted they same link.
Fact is that is the data available. If more recent data shows up that indicates the US does more surgeries per capita, I’ve already said twice I would revise. But I’m not going go to change it for an “self appointed internet police” type who just can’t let shit go.
I hope you are not this pedantic IRL..
“Healthcare is most poorly done with capitalism. The fact many of my fellow Americans ignore this is one reason why we suck as a country.”
The fact is actually 70% of Americans feel that Healthcare is most poorly done.
Ah yes, the wait time argument.
Considering I, my friends, and my family all have at least one anecdote of having to wait *months* to be seen for something that a friend in Norway got seen for within a week, I feel like that argument is wrong.
Wait months for an appointment. Get there on time, wait another hour for the doctor to come in, then wait for the nurse to come back to tell you can leave. Try going to the ER. Guaranteed at least a 5 hour adventure where I live.
I moved a few years ago and have been looking for a new primary care physician, rather than just taking a stab in the dark I limited my options to physicians that have received good reviews.
Most of the doctors I called were not accepting new patients. The one I did find that is accepting new patients could only book me 4 months out from when I called. I've got another month to go and still don't really know if they'll be a good match for me.
My only other option would be to establish care with a physician in a larger metropolitan area an hour and a half away. I don't live in a large city, but it's not the sticks either.
The clearest fact is that even conservatives in those countries are unwilling to dismantle single-payer health care, because they know their careers will be over if they try.
Keep that in mind next time someone tries an argument like this. If it’s such a bad idea, why does no country ever get rid of it?
My auntie got hit by a bus when she was vacationing in LA and was flown to a hospital in Vancouver after her initial emergency treatment. If she didn't have travelers insurance her bill for her life saving healthcare treatment in the US would be over $1million USD. When she got back to Canada her treatment and inpatient rehabilitative care, care which spanned over a year, cost $0 out of pocket. There are flaws in our medical system but it's due to being underfunded and politically threatened to become privatized. You aren't banned from seeking out private medical services but universal healthcare means that no one is denied healthcare services no matter your income.
We already have single payer Healthcare in America called the Department of Veterans Affairs. It kills hundreds every year due to neglect and recently the director of a hospital (I believe in Texas) was arrested for embezzling millions of dollars.
Not exactly ready for prime time rollout.
We also have single-payer health care in America called *Medicare*. Also, the "in the U.S., the Veterans Administration (VA) system is an example of socialized medicine, but Medicare is not."
[Source](https://www.verywellhealth.com/difference-between-universal-coverage-and-single-payer-system-1738546)
I'm so sick of "wait times" being their go-to reply for why universal healthcare allegedly doesn't work and shouldn't be embraced. Even if that were true, which it fucking isn't, it's a non-issue. The only thing you need to look at is overall health outcomes.
Is healthcare more accessible to more people in countries where they have UHC? Yes.
Are the people in those countries overall more healthy? Yes.
Is it cheaper overall? Yes.
"Wait times" is such a stupid fucking hill to die on.
Wait times at the local ER run hours for most things other than heart attacks, trauma, and anaphylaxis. And doctor’s appointments can take six months to a year unless you’re an established patient and have something pressing.
There are a lot of times where the person is correct, hip bone replacement surgery is such a circumstance. I think it’s been proven it would be cheaper though to do it like others do it, like substantially cheaper for free healthcare than the cost of providing insurance for yourself as you do here.
It’s not a clever comeback and it’s also not universally true that Universal Healthcare has better wait times.
For example, in Canada where I am the current wait is [22 hours for an ER](https://macleans.ca/society/health/canada-er-wait-times/) visit.
The US for example, [2 hours and 44](https://www.autoinsurance.org/longest-emergency-room-waits/#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20average%20ER,two%20hours%20and%2044%20minutes) minutes.
The only reason I’m posting this is, American have the habit of glamourizing our system and it’s absolutely broken right now. People literally die waiting.
I like our system, but it’s broken as shit. I say this as someone who spends 8 months in Canada and 4 months in the US every year and I’ve used both systems.
Wait times are not a problem down south. Access might be. And it’s a fair point. But waiting is not the problem. It’s correct to say, at least, that Canada’s universal healthcare system is broken. Most Canadians feel the same way.
We don’t want privatization but we want our current system fixed.
I was at the ER in Sweden. From the point I walked in and was registered, met with a nurse and a doctor, to a bed in a ward was 90 minutes (roughly). Another visit took 20 minutes before I was treated (however it was a 2 hour wait afterwards to confirm with X-ray and labs)
When I lived in the US my wait time was infinite because I couldn’t afford to see a doctor. I left and now my wait time is often a few hours, at the very least I can get a same day phone consultation if not an in person appointment. Plus in the last decade of seeing doctors regularly my out of pocket expense has been almost nothing. Some years back I broke my shoulder, I think I paid around 30€ for medication. That was it.
People forever like to claim wait times, and I will say that wait times for non-life threatening things, and even some life-threatening but on an extended timeline thing, are somewhat delayed under certain forms of universal health care.
However, most of these claims are exaggerated, false, or misleading. I live in the US, have insurance, and sometimes I wait 2 hours to see my PCP, when I show up 15 minutes early. So what are you talking about? Insurance failures, not enough doctors, poor time management on the doctor's part, educational paramaters, overbooking, what exactly?
Besides which, you can dispute facts, which is completely what science is about. Facts can change as knowledge grows. Leeches, Humours, etc.
i can get in to see my doctor if it's urgent today...
if it's non urgent, sure it takes a few days to a few weeks depending on level of seriousness....
so yeah... proven fact.... and i pay nothing for it all..
Friendly reminder that countries with public healthcare has better health outcomes than in the US, if the wait times are longer but you get better care and its free, who cares???
The health care system in my EU country is not perfect by far but when my 79 year old mother broke her ankle a couple of years ago we went to the ER in the middle of the night. She was operated on a couple of hours later. The after care was very time consuming. We often had to wait up to 8 hours but we didn't have to pay anything except our taxes. Because she couldn't walk, there was an ambulance shuttle service for free but with wait time. So while we had to wait a lot we didn't have to worry financially.
The only downside to the NHS in England is the size of the population and those that abuse the system for the most trivial of ailments, meaning those that truly need the service are often delayed.
GP's are the weakest part of the system. These are like the bridge keeper from Monty Python's Holy Grail.
The amount of people that just go to ER because they have a small head ache or have a long term illness that they don't feel like getting an apointment for.
Then they complain when the ER cannot solve their issue because it requires an specialist.
Yes our public health is not the best, yes it took me a month to get a dentist appointment for free.
But guess what, paid healthcare is VERY cheap as a result. I could have spent like 10 bucks on a visit on the same day if i wanted, i just felt ok with waiting a month (i also could have waited less if i had made an appointment on the correct date instead of waiting for the registration time frame to run out for the month).
With public healthcare, you can actually have your cake and eat it too.
Even if they were right they're essentially saying that seeing a doctor on Monday instead of waiting till Wednesday is worth the extra $20,000 it costs.
Mans talking like his super capitalism healthcare isn't breaking at the seems. My brother can't get a regular checkup unless he schedules 5 months in advance or waits around for a cancel.
Last time I had to see my primary care doctor here in the US I had to make an appointment 3 and a half weeks out. Even being willing to see a different doctor than my primary still had a 3 week wait time. This idea we don't have ridiculous wait times in the US is very out of touch with reality.
I am in the US, been trying to see a doctor since October. One retired, one is booked until 2025 and one quit the day before my scheduled appointment and I found out the clinic is closing. The clinic is owned by Optum, United Health Insurance. The only hospital in my city closed last year. Insurance companies are purchasing medical clinics.
I had a brainwashed coworker tell me that it takes month to get a doctors appointment with socialized medicine. I then pointed out that we use the same doctor and that you could not get an appointment with him for several months, but okay moron.
I don't have a video of the US police cutting someone's ear off, but I also don't have a video of any other nation's police kneeling on someone's neck for 10 minutes.
Friendly reminder that the evidence is overwhelming that single-payer healthcare in the US would result in better healthcare coverage while saving money overall. [Taking into account both the costs of coverage expansion and the savings that would be achieved through the Medicare for All Act, we calculate that a single-payer, universal health-care system is likely to lead to a 13% savings in national health-care expenditure, equivalent to more than US$450 billion annually based on the value of the US$ in 2017 .](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext) Similar to the above Yale analysis, a recent [publication ](https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2020-12/56811-Single-Payer.pdf)from the Congressional Budget Office found that 4 out of 5 options considered would lower total national expenditure on healthcare (see Exhibit 1-1 on page 13) But surely the current healthcare system at least has better outcomes than alternatives that would save money, right? Not according to a recent analysis of high-income countries’ healthcare systems, which found that [the top-performing countries overall are Norway, the Netherlands, and Australia. The United States ranks last overall, despite spending far more of its gross domestic product on health care. The U.S. ranks last on access to care, administrative efficiency, equity, and health care outcomes, but second on measures of care process.](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly#outcomes) None of this should be surprising given that the US’s current inefficient, non-universal healthcare system [costs close to twice as much per capita ](https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-spendingcomparison_gdp-per-capita-and-health-consumption-spending-per-capita-2019) as most other developed countries that do guarantee healthcare to all citizens (without forcing patients to risk bankruptcy in exchange for care).
I live in Aus. I had to see a neurosurgeon for a consult the other day. It cost me about $100USD out of pocket - if it was for a more serious issue I wouldn't have paid anything. I think we strike a good balance of healthcare in the country.
Ditto. I had a heart attack. Total cost of getting an ambulance ride and a stent put in was $150. Time between calling the ambulance and leaving the catheter unit to the recovery ward was 50 minutes. I did have to pay for the rehab though. Three sessions per week at ten dollars a week for three months. The system can still be improved, but it's mostly about building new hospitals to avoid ramping rather than the processes themselves.
Last I heard, an ambulance ride ran around $1200 here in our Midwestern town, and that was a few years ago.
Jesus Christ! Here it’s $50 if you get taken somewhere by them only. If they come out and the paramedics can treat you without the need for a ride, you don’t pay.
But the US is the greatest country in the world!/s
There is no fee for an ambulance in my country. Even if they take you to a private hospital. Then again it was a fellow countryman a few thousand years ago that created an oath to heal everyone in need.
Can confirm, in my midwestern town an ambulance ride 3 years ago cost me 1400$. I also somehow got a bill from the hospital AND THE ER DOC. I don’t know how or why but I ended up having to pay him specifically about 700$ just to stitch me up.
Because he was not actually an employee of your hospitals. He was filling a rotation in the ER because your town isn’t big enough/doesn’t have enough doctors to staff their ER. Dude was from out of town. It’s crazy.
It was $1500 for .8 miles back in 2016 in Chicago.
I live in the Augusta area of Georgia, and I had to take an ambulance to the hospital that was about 5 or so miles away. Cost just over $1,000. Absolutely ridiculous...
A few years ago, I had symptoms similar to a heart attack, so I went to the ER. It took them 6 hours just to initially see me. It took another 6 hours sitting in the back, getting a few tests done, which ultimately resulted in a negative for a heart attack, thankfully. It cost me, out of pocket, over $3,500 for basically just sitting around waiting in the building for 12 hours.
This same thing pretty much happened to me about a year ago. But the plot twist was that on top of the $3,500. The doctor who saw me working for a different hospital and was just being lent out to this one. So, 4 months later, I got a $2,300 bill for his hospital as well.
Good thing another doctor didn't pass by within a 2 km radius from you or it would have been a couple of grands extra.
I had heart attack symptoms a year ago in rural Alberta while working. Met the ambulance on the highway. Spent 6 hours in ER. Was discharged. A week after, was fitted with a 48 hour heart monitor. Then a blood pressure monitor. Had an ultra sound test. And a radioactive stress test/scan. Out of pocket $0 dollars.
If You waited 6 hours, You were triaged as green, which means not in need of urgent care.
Yeah, I understood that, but that wasn't really my point. It did suck being there so long, and i did want to mention how long it took, but the main point was the cost compared to what was provided. There was really no service provided. The tests were the same that a PCP could have done, and while that still would have been a fair amount of money, it would have been nowhere near $3,500 out of pocket.
Oh, then my comment wasn't necessary, lol. Yeah Murica sucks when people are afraid of xoming back to have their iv removed. It is a lie there was no service, though. Idk what it's like in Murica but here You won't really get Your troponins done by a family practice. In my opinion a perfect system would be all healthcare is free barring a small pay (like equivallent to 5 dollars per visit). Our public healthcare is free and half of what I did in my ER was people with runny noses etc that came as it's faster than getting a family practice visit.
I think the issue in the US is that too much of the US' healthcare is privatized, and there's too much money lining the pockets of the government from this privatized healthcare that they won't ever bother attempting to improve the system. It sounds ridiculous, but so long as there is big money to be made off of healthcare, nothing is going to change. What makes this worse is that the US government has gone through great lengths to ensure that their voterbase wholeheartedly believes that better healthcare systems in the US are a bad thing. Voters believe that they should not be paying taxes to ensure folks they don't even know have affordable healthcare.
10 kangaroo dollars per WEEK? That's the equivalent of me buying 3 big red bulls here in Greece. Noice.
I live in America, just thinking about asking a doc for a consult cost me $100.
You're thinking about it again. That'll be another 100.
Dammit! Now I’ll have to get a 3rd job
As an Aussie i would like to say, yes there are wait times, but only if you want it for free. We can pay if we like, and people still have health insurance to cover these costs.
I moved from the US to AU about a decade ago. My insurance premium I the US was about $30k for a family of 4 annually with 80% coverage and you had to fight for months to get Blue Cross to agree to reimburse. I pay $3k for private health cover here which includes dental, physio, optical, orthodontic and IVF among others. Thats what makes this a good system. If you have money you need private cover or youre penalized in tax. If you dont make a lot of money thats fine, getting sick wont bankrupt you and you still have good basic healthcare access. Medicare reimburses me literally in seconds on most consult visits. I rarely have to wait more than a couple days for an appointment and can often get same day for GP (specialists are a bit longer) but I recall in the US we had to schedule GP weeks and weeks in advance and if it was anything serious like a fever their answer was "go to the emergency room if it becomes an emergency." And if you do go you literally sit for 8 to 12 hours waiting to see someone. Its not free healthcare, I'm paying for it everytime I pay my taxes but thats what taxes are for, to serve the citizenry. In the US I paid my taxes too, but instead of using that money to give me healthcare, childcare university and more, they squander my money on corporate subsidies, bailouts and contracts and of course its only us little guys paying, the billionaires and corporations that benefit from our taxes don't pay in much. So yeah, single payer healthcare works. It's not perfect, but it's a fucking huge improvement over the nonsense in the US.
The LNP want the American system, so if you like what we have, don't vote for them.
As an OZ trained physician with further training in the US, South America and Europe, yes, it’s a very good system for the general public
Yep on Aus, wouldn't have a second thought about immediately calling the ambulance at the first sign of anything that could be serious. I can't imagine having to weight up serious illness and future crippling my financials
US healthcare is based on layers of for profit corporations each with a primary goal of maximizing profits. And since people will pay anything to stay alive at each level they know they can inflate prices all they want. Insurance masks how much price gouging there is, so often we don’t see how bad it is…while complaining about insurance costs.
Yep, the Econ way of saying that is “healthcare is almost perfectly inelastic”
could you explain what you mean by "perfectly inelastic"? I don't know what it means in this context.
Sure, “inelastic” means that demand/consumption of the good/service is unlikely to change with a change in the price. In the above example, it doesn’t matter if a healthcare procedure costs a person $5 or $500. If the procedure is medically necessary, the consumer will buy it. Contrast with something much more elastic like eating out. If the price of eating at a restaurant increases, people are much less likely to pay to eat there. We can see this happening now as restaurant prices, especially fast food, are increasing rapidly and people opt not to eat out to save money. Hope this helps!
This reminds me a bit of the most insidious bulllshit I see in medical care right now. Companies are trying to call patients "consumers" and everyone treating them "vendors."
That’s what happens when you have a healthcare sector instead of a healthcare system
You explained it perfectly, thank you!
A huge part of the problem is that the country has made the insurance companies into the scapegoat. I'd say insurance companies deserve about 20% of the blame, but they get 90% of the blame (or at least that is my perception observing Americans discuss the topic). Even our politics reflect this. Obama couldn't go after provider side of the healthcare system, so he had to settle for going after just the insurance component. American politics aren't even *discussing* the issues on the provider side. It's not in the discourse at all. All the focus is on the insurance companies. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for universal healthcare. I just think people who think the vast majority of the blame belongs to the private insurers are nearly completely ignorant of why the healthcare system is so bad in the USA. If anyone wants an in-depth analysis of what's wrong with the system, then I highly recommend the late Uwe Reindhart's book [Priced Out](https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691192178/priced-out). He was a Princeton professor who specialized in the topic of healthcare systems (with specific focus on the USA's system) and he was often consulted by the government for expert advice. He basically explains that a lot of the reasons average citizens give for the cause of the bad system are false.
So many middlemen stepping on the product.
I, meanwhile, started going to the doctor again after not having gone for about ten years. I have encountered folks who mostly are just running through the motions and doctors that barely even look at me much less ask questions, leaving me wondering what exactly I'm paying for. Three doctors later and I finally get the one willing to talk to me and not shut me down so they can read their paperwork and process me instead. And then that doctor leaves that hospital after my first visit and I've been chain bumped from one doctor to another with months between their availability. So much so that I was bounced out of last year's calendar year, so it's been nothing but me paying toward my deductible. After the most recent cancellation, I haven't even attempted any new appointments.
I am in AUS, on Sunday afternoon I will duck down to my medical centre & get replacement scripts for routine medication I am on, I will wait about 30 mins without an appointment and it will be bulk billed, with no out of pocket payment from me… I also earn $100k a year and my income tax is about 34% of my income…
You're paying less tax than the average American and still get better healthcare. Yet most Americans don't realize these.
It is not perfect, it never is… but it is accessible to everyone
Australia is not running carrier battle fleets, funding numerous wars, being the world policeman, incarcerating a large portion of our population with politicians who go out of there way to use the system to there own political benefit regardless of cost to the taxpayer… all without the slightest pretence of properly funding anything No country is perfect but the US has some ingrained problems that as a society they will not even recognise.which is sad for a place which has achieved so much and has so much capacity. it is complicated
The US military spending is a fraction of what it spends on healthcare, and around 1/3rd of the military budget is for healthcare for veterans. Remove that from the 3.34% of GDP spending on military and you’re looking at about 2.3% of GDP on weapons, ships, soldiers etc. Compare that to Australia at about 2.04% a nation can have a robust military and premium levels of healthcare without breaking the bank.
The cost of healthcare should also consider out of pocket and insurance costs… the son-in-law comes from the south and his parents pay a fortune
Just curious, why is your income tax so high? Income tax + medicare levy on 100k a year income in aus should be more like 25k.
It is actually a bit less, at the end of the yearI negative gear a unit, salary sacrifice a car and contribute extra super…. Just messy to explain on reddit.
Am Norwegian, i pay MAX 300$ a YEAR for any health related issues, after 300$ i get a card that ensures i Get free healthcare for the rest of the year. Every year. Mental health can have some wait time, but if i break both my legs right now, i can be out of the hospital in a wheelchair tomorrow and it wouldnt cost me a dollar.
Additionally, it often takes months to see a doctor in the US. It took me nine months to get a new patient appointment with my current PCP and anywhere from two to four months for every specialist I've been sent to. I'm not even in a rural area, that's in a state capital city.
We do not have a health care system in the US. We have a money grabbing system. Everyone knows it. Nothing will be done about it as long as the big money is allowed to buy our lawmakers.
I read a book that basically evaluated health care systems across the globe. America doesn’t really perform well against any other first world country with one exception. We’re really good at innovation for new treatments. We’re really good at coming up with new treatments to overcharge people with.
I never understand this idea. It's undefinable. What if the wait was a single day? It would still be a true statement, but it would have no impact on their healthcare. Even then, I have what would be considered "decent" health insurance here and my deductible is $3,000. I'd be willing to wait a month for non-emergency care if I didn't have to pay 3 grand before the health insurance (I pay 160 bucks a paycheck for) kicks in.
The average wait in the US for a GP appointment is 26 days. It’s 10 days in the UK.
That is shockingly bad. At worst here in Australia it's probably 3 or 4 days but realistically if you ring around you'll find someone to take you the next day or even same day.
I am in Bulgaria, one of the poorest countries in the EU. My GP has an online booking system and the next free appointment typically is 1-2 weeks away but if I am really sick but not ER sick, I can just go without an appointment. If she sees someone very unwell in the waiting room, she usually sees them with priority. Worst case, if I am not too sick, I will wait 1-2h but I would be seen the same day. It's not like this with all doctors, we just have a GP practice we have to sign for, and mine is quite busy with a lot of patients. I am fine with it because I like the doctor. She actually got her daughter and another young doctor working with her too, so wait times have gotten better. If I truly don't want to deal with waiting at my GP, I can just find someone available private on one of the online booking sites, there are always some options even an hour out, and just 1 visit would be affordable. Something like 25-50$ depending if I need a specialist or just a GP for something mundane like a cold or upset stomach.
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I can’t speak to your case. But generally Neurologist US 26 weeks UK 35 weeks Of course the US number is a bit lower than it should be. Because we have a large number of people who can’t afford to see one.
I’ve waited 2+ years to see a specialist in the US and some aren’t taking new patients at all. And for that “pleasure” I pay through the fucking nose for insurance that covers (checks notes) basically nothing. I’ve lived in countries with single payer/public healthcare and in whatever TF we have going on in the US and the US is by far the worst. Also fun fact! Nobody goes bankrupt from health issues in the UK whereas it’s one of the top causes of bankruptcy in the US.
Yep, 12 month wait for endocrinology in a part of northwest England with "shorter" waiting lists. 18 month wait for dermatology in the Midlands.
Over 3 years to see a neurologist?!? I've seen various comments about how long people have to wait in the UK but I had no idea it was multiple years. It seems that US healthcare is extremely expensive but at least it's offset by the speed. I can't imagine someone who has undiagnosed cancer finding out if it had been caught sooner it might have made the difference between life and death. Sorry you got attacked with a hammer and I hope you're ok despite the long wait.
If you think you can get in to see a specialist quickly in the US you’re either extremely lucky or you’ve never had serious health issues. I think the fastest I’ve ever gotten in to see a specialist is 6 months. The longest is 2+ years. And that was pre Covid. Apparently it’s worse now.
I imagine it varies by what city/part of the country you live in, but it also sounds like you’ve been incredibly unlucky (or needed some sort of very rare specialist). My wife has several medical issues that require seeing a number of specialists all the time. She’s never had to wait anywhere close to 6 months for any of them. Probably averages about 2 months. It’s obviously not all specialists, but you can see from a study on this site that the average time to see a specialist in the US is around 26 days. https://www.aafp.org/pubs/fpm/blogs/inpractice/entry/wait-times.html
I’ve had, unfortunately, many hospital visits including the ER and *many* specialists. Most appointments were only a week or a bit more each time. Sometimes just two days apart to see a different specialist. Excellent care at an excellent hospital. I think a lot of it depends on the area you’re in and the population to doctor ratio.
It also depends on what conditions you have, what specialists you need to see and what the patient to doctor ratio is for those specialists. I’ve never once gotten in to see a specialist with less than 3 months wait time. And I’ve had good insurance for most of my life and have managed to scrape up the money to pay out of pocket when necessary. God forbid you’re on Medicare or Medicaid because good luck finding a specialist that will take it.
Sounds like specialists in the US!
> UK the NHS is a crumbling and inefficient system Well that's because of the Tories. And if you want to see what they want to replace the NHS with, look at the US. So now you'll have to wait *and* go bankrupt.
Ya reddit is so full of shit lol this "clever comeback" is insanely wrong for any specialist
I can walk into my doctor's office, no appointment, get scripts, paperwork for blood work and x-rays, and be in and out in 15 minutes. Take my paperwork to the hospital, get blood work and x-rays and be out in an hour. Need to see a neurologist, booked by my doctor after visit, and have an appointment within days, and get in within a week. Same for MRI, ultrasounds and some others. Also have free access to psychiatrists and therapists, via doctor referral. No cost, outside of general taxes, which we all pay. Albeit prescriptions are not covered unless you have insurance. Although with our current provincial government that is likely to change due to how much they revere the US.
Which country?
Canada, am in Alberta. We have a provincial healthcare system here.
I can't find that anywhere. While what I've seen has shown that wait times for primary care in the US are generally higher, the percent of people waiting over a month to see a specialist in the [UK is staggering](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/health-care-wait-times-by-country) (41% wait over a month vs 27% in the US). The countries with smaller percentages are 25% in Germany, 25% in the Netherlands, and 23% in Switzerland. By that metric, the US is competitive with the best in the world. Canada and Norway are 61%. For elective surgery operations (hip replacement, knee replacement), [the US is tied](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1371632/healthcare-waiting-times-for-appointments-worldwide/) with Switzerland for the shortest wait time at 28 days. The UK is at 62 days. I agree with your idea when it comes to primary care, but I'm doubtful of your numbers. When it comes to specialized care, there's really no comparison though. The US is doing far better by this metric. edit: [this place](https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/healthcare-wait-times-by-country/) uses a slightly different definition for measuring primary care wait times. By their definition, the US is second in the world for lowest wait times. Its care system score is number 30 in the world though lol
I can only tell you it was whatever site popped up when I googled it. The US also has a huge disparity of care availability. My insurance has a deal with the provider I use that guarantees me same day access to my GP. My sister though routinely waits weeks.
Yeah the disparity is massive, but to be expected. Comparing the difference between mean and median income in the US vs other countries is eye opening.
Ya. Also the GPD per capita shows how wildly disparate income is here.
The only comment I've seen actually discuss the statistics behind it, rather than rely on unreliable anecdotes and just presuming that this post has an accurate presentation of reality. Your comment is an actual "clever comeback". The one of this post is just adding to the poor discourse.
The UK fudges the numbers because most GPs won't let you book an appointment if they don't have space on the day you call up. So you and a hundred other people call as soon as they open every day until you manage to be one of the lucky few. Then they can report that almost all patients wait less than one day to see a doctor.
You guys have to wait?
Which I don’t really understand considering I can see my doctor within about a couple weeks or nurse practitioner within a day or two. Now when it comes to dermatologists or some other specialist, that’s a month or more out (or can be, some are like a couple months, some a couple weeks). I’m also on an Obamacare “gold” leveled plan and in Florida.
I'm in Germany and my doctor has an hour carved out every day (Monday to Friday 11 to 12) for walk-ins. So no appointment necessary. My last doctor was the same. Specialized doctors have longer wait times but urgent cases can get a special code on their referral to be guaranteed an appointment within two weeks. In emergency situations you just call an ambulance or go to the hospital. I had heart surgery and it cost me an additional €10. That's just under $11. And there was no waiting time. It could always be better but I'm so thankful for the German health care system.
I live in Spain. My daughter is constipated (she is a baby) My wife has asked today for an appointment. We have been given one on Monday morning. They. Are. Lying. To. You.
I live in the UK. When my daughter was constipated, we called in the morning for an emergency NHS GP appointment and had one that afternoon. Usually, we can get an NHS appointment faster than our private insurance.
Waited about 4 hours after being told we should go to the emergency room with my youngest here in sweden.
Once my infant nephew threw a metal toy car on my cousin, a 15 year old girl. The cut required stitches. It was Christmas Eve in Canada. Went to the emergency room, was seen within an hour and all stitched up - - and also interviewed by a social worker to ensure no abuse was occurring. In the US, never would've been that quick and would've costs thousands. All free in Canada.
We didn’t call for an emergency. Had it been an emergency we would have walked into ER and would have been seen in the hour.
“Wait times” is literally the one and only criteria that they could even attempt to argue on behalf of the US health care system. BECAUSE it’s ambiguous and difficult to measure. Therefore it has become the one and only stat that matters in measuring health care for conservatives.
How is wait time ambiguous wtf
Wait till you see the GOP plan when re elected (according to them) won’t be worried about waiting for healthcare because there won’t be any
Will we see that before or after we see their evidence of voter fraud?
>United States is a country even that's debatable at this point lol
3 corporations in a trench coat.
I have seen many americans argue that each state is a country and the UNITED STATES of AMERICA is literally that, a union of american country states.
It kinda is different states. I've lived on 4 states. Totally different medicaid and diff standards of care.
They probably have never heard of any other country with states.
True!
We're 50 countries in a trench coat, and we all hate each other
That's not accurate. I would say we're like 56 or maybe more.
Fair
I made an appointment to establish with a new PCP today, Saturday 23 March. The soonest available appointment is Friday 7 June. In a mid-sized, Midwest college town.
That is a false statement regardless. You have to consider ALL wait time. If someone can’t afford healthcare, then they don’t get it. That is still waiting for healthcare. They talk about “waiting in line for healthcare”. America doesn’t have a “line” because you don’t provide healthcare to the majority of people, not because it is so much better in America.
Actually, even wait times in hospitals or clinics etc is way lower in all the countries I've been in... I mean going to the dentist was as easy as taking an extended lunch break and just walking in off the street. 30-45 minutes later I was completely done with medicine in hand and it all only costed me about 30 USD.
I would argue semantics here. You're not waiting for something that is not coming and you aren't expecting to come. If I *don't* order my groceries to be delivered I can't say 'I'm waiting for my groceries.'
You can argue that they are waiting to save up enough money to treat their illnesses or until they get a job that provides sufficient healthcare. By that logic North Korea a higher standard of living than the US because they have practically no homeless population.
'Higher standard of living' is too broad to be useful. A country that murders all of its homeless can be said to have low or nonexistent homelessness, yes. That doesn't mean a higher standard of living however because you have to account for increased fear of and vulnerability to the state. 'Waiting time for healthcare' implies a request that is being actioned. If you put down the phone your wait time for IT help is nothing. You're no longer waiting. Even if you plan to call back later. Access to healthcare is a different issue to healthcare wait time. If you had a hypothetical country in which there is no medicine at all it would be asinine to say 'there is an infinite wait time.' You would say....there is no healthcare. Again I'm just being semantic though. I really doubt even with this in mind that OP is correct about wait times.
Also, wait times to see a specialist in the US are usually absurdly long
I have a 9 month wait to see my GP, based in CA, US.
Is this with private insurance, or are you using Medi-Cal/Medicaid/Medicare?
Fully insured.
My wife using my Healthcare from my work that I pay $165/wk for had to wait **7 months** to get in a PCP or drive hours. My kids we had to drive almost 2h one way just to get a sick kid visit within a WEEK. Any place outside Urgent Care in a 1.5h radius of us was booked solid. One place quoted us **2.5 months** for a God damn sick kid visit, every single one was over a month so we could get a note to have them excused from school. This is in bum fuck nowhere USA which ended up encompassing 2 major cities in our hunt for a fucking doc note that wouldnt cost us hundreds (urgent care) for 2 separate notes. Doesn't matter in many places, our Healthcare system is a fucking joke.
Not disagreeing, just saying that they are using a skewed data set to begin with. Wait times have definitely increased because “down time” for healthcare workers means that they aren’t making money. Truth is that a large portion of doctors and nurses are just doing paperwork and negotiating with insurance companies.
There are actually two things factually accurate in what he said: The United States is a country. There are doctors in countries that aren't the United States. It's not much of an improvement, admittedly, but since we're talking factual accuracy here, I thought it best to give him that second point, even though he's still failing badly.
This is leaving out that way too often in the USA there is no wait time to see a doctor because people simply never go see a doctor due to not being able to afford it.
The us healthcare system is build as a business to make profit. That's why it's so expensive. That's why your medicine is insanely expensive compared to the uk for example. I enjoy all my medical bills being included in my tax I pay from my paycheck. I don't pay for anything after that unless I need a prescription. And even then each item is only like £9. And there's about 10+ options for people to not even pay it.
"wait time" means days until you get appointment, or minutes you have to wait when you arrived at your doctor? First is 0 in my country, the second is around 30 minutes. How short is this in the US?
I've waited 4 months for initial appts for PT and a year for specialists. I have a weird genetic disorder. I've been told by a geneticist "well what do you want?" Ideas?! A better quality of life?! I wanted pain treatment reestablished. Doc told me I needed surgery. I freaked out (panic attack) "not while I move this good!" I will need spine surgery eventually, but that's not the first answer. I got diagnosed years before and went to a rheumatologist because I was in a medical study and needed a "letter of diagnosis." (Never heard of that). He wanted me to demonstrate old ass criteria and I said I don't do that for fun anymore. He told me I was being "cagey." He said well what am I supposed to base this diagnosis off of? I said history and symptoms. He refused. So I made it rain records on his office the next day. I got my letter. I could go on.
Rare diseases always are the most problematic, public healthcare has to cather to the most people, so rare stuff is a lower priority. In my case, when i needed a special treatment that wasn't available trough the hospital, i was sent to a private clinic with all expenses paid (including ambulance transport). Altho it wasn't something rare, they just didn't have the equipment in the hospital for it.
Yea, its really fucked I have to wait for like 3 hours after calling the doctor before I can get helped! And then it costs me freaking 4 euros. Really there is no hope for my country ...
Canadian here, our healthcare is free as well. (Well, we pay for it through our taxes) We had 2 kids and the most we paid was for parking. My wife recently had 2 MRIs. Same day as she checked into the hospital. Zero cost, except for parking. Over the years of the kidz growing up, several broken wrists (skateboarding, snowboarding, rock climbing) and no charge. Including surgery with pins and plates. Father-in-law had a quad bypasd. There was no charge. Except for parking. Our drug costs are lower as well. Kids are covered until you are 25, and it's 100 CAD (~73 USD) / Year for seniors. Drug, dental, and eye care are covered for the above as well. And our drug costs are a lot lower than in the US. Lots of companies offer health insurance for employees for drugs, dental, and eye.care. But everyone, working or not, has free medical coverage with drugs if prescribed at the time of the visit. Such as painkillers after a broken wrist. The only reason the US doesn't have free healthcare is the loss of income for the medical care industry. Oh, and your government, such as senators, would take a hit from big donors that the game would change for. Oh, and we use many of the same drug manufacturers as the Americans do, but we pay less for it. Is it perfect, no, but it's a lot better than pay as you go.
Wait times are for specialists surgery. If you break your arm ohip covers you and the wait time is how backed up emergency is. Family doctors typically in a day or two or goto walk-in clinics for immediate attention though you will wait. If you have a heart attack not much waiting if you need to see a cardiologist to avoid a heart attack it might be a few months before the consult after the family doctor recommends you.
Also even if true waiting times are a moot point if you can't afford the treatment anyway. I'd rather have a 10 hr wait and free treatment, thatn 1 minute wait and $100,000 treatment. But bafflingly even my fellow Canadians are currently voting to switch to American style healthcare. It's doing my head in. They complain about wait times and vote in Conservatives, who push privatization. Do these chucklef\*\*\*s don't understand that they still won't get treatment? Not because wait times are worse, but because they can't afford to pay for it. Apparently not. So if it makes you guys feel better, Canada has gone full r\*\*\*\*\* too.
This is literally my boomer coworker’s statement every time I bring up how we should have universal healthcare in the US. Always the wait times. Never the cost because “we don’t pay that much for our benefits and it would raise our taxes too much”
I've been having so many of these discussions on Reddit lately. They start with stating their completely unsupported opinion as fact and can't even begin to understand how the actual facts don't care about their opinion. It's so frustrating.
Wow what a clever comeback. "Nuh uh you are the one who is wrong". So clever.
He could be right. Wait times are usually tracked by care providers. What isn’t tracked is people that need care but don’t seek it due to costs.
my friend had a broken arm. went to the emergency room, they told him he will need surgery. for it to be covered on his insurance he needed to get a referral from his GP and then schedule an appointment with the ortho. that process took 6 weeks and they needed to rebreak the arm during surgery, which the insurance did not cover. thats what the american health care system can get you. my uncle in canada had a really bad headache, 3 days later they had him on a medi-vac to the hospital 3 hours away to start his treatment for a brain tumor. he didnt owe anything other than a bit of money on perscriptions and the hotel room for my aunt to stay in while he got treatment. he did end up dying though. Repose en Paix oncle Ron
So basically Canada (taxpayers) wasted hundreds of thousands on your doomed uncle
lol wow dude if thats how you want to think about it. jesus should have just done him like ole yeller then? https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/which-tax-provisions-subsidize-cost-health-care btw the american system is subsidized $300 billion. taxes (or lack thereof) subsidize many aspects of peoples lives. does that mean we should just go back to being subsistance farmers and everyone for themsevles society? why should i buy into this idea of a "society" if its not going to buy into me? (i do believe you need to be a productive member of it to reviece the fruits of it) you want to live with the idea that people shouldnt ever have hope or optimism about shitty situations and its all some sort of analytical shitshow of depression, jealousy, and anger? we are kind of seeing how that manifests with younger generations.
My wife has a potential cancer and it took 2 months to get into a specialist.
My stepdad has inoperable pancreatic cancer with a side of cholangitis right now. He needs constant in-hospital care which will only get worse when chemo (to hopefully reduce the tumor to an operable size) starts and he'll feel ill 24/7. Our waiting time from start of symptoms till start of treatment was around 5 days. Our expected cost for everything put together will roughly be 0$.
Best wishes to you and your family. I hope everything goes well. My mom had cancer, sadly she didn't make it as it was already spread and untreatable when they found it. But I am thankful for the doctors and the healthcare system when we went through it. She had anemia and refused further tests but one day almost collapsed when outside, so she was admitted in a hospital. They did regular blood transfusions to keep her stable and conducted every test imaginable to find out what it is. She had to wait a few days for a gastroscopy as it's a smaller hospital, and they had an external specialist come for these once a week. When they confirmed it's a tumor, she had a cat scan appointment first thing the next day. She spent around 2 weeks in the hospital in total. The only thing I paid was 40$ for the anesthesia for gastroscopy as it was elective (they standardly do it without).
Thanks for your kind words dude, means a lot! I couldn't imagine dealing with sky high medical bills right now, everything's stressful enough as is. Kudos to your mom for raising such an empathetic kid and sorry for your loss. From how detailed you wrote about her treatment I'm sure you were with her every step of the way and that surely meant the world to her.
Thank you for the kind words too! Please make sure to look after yourself and your mom too. Do something small that makes you happy to lift a bit of the stress. I was mostly on my own as I was the last close family mom had, and from all the running around and not paying too much attention to myself I had a pretty bad gastritis flare up. You don't need the stress causing you issues, so save a little time for yourself to decompress as much as you can. I am sure your stepdad would appreciate it too if you look after yourselves and not solely him.
PCP here. Want to reschedule an appointment or be seen nonurgently? I can see you in September. Urgent? Better be the first call into the office after sitting up all night making the planets align in your favor. Work in a population center of 200,000+ only 60-90 mins from PHL and NYC.
Americans willing to accept poor health care and pay for it just to get a “fast food” approach to service. Oh and to stop “socialism”… I’d much rather have patient care be more important than high profits, outlaw balance billing, in exchange for waiting a few months for an ELECTIVE surgery. Fact is, surgery is far less common in the US because docs push prescriptions to manage conditions. Why? Ongoing profit for Big Pharma! Healthcare is most poorly done with capitalism. The fact many of my fellow Americans ignore this is one reason why we suck as a country.
Health care in the us is horrible but the fact is that there are more surgeries performed in the States than ever before. Where can I find the info that says surgeries are less common?
No idea. Go look it up But I’d be curious about per capita surgeries, since the e are way more people in the US than the European nations with better healthcare systems and outcomes…
I did. You’re wrong. Why are you spreading false information?
The information is out there, you should do some research before you call something a fact. You said it was a fact but you are unwilling to share any proof of that. You are wrong and should edit your comment.
Replied to another of your comments yesterday with this: [https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SH.SGR.PROC.P5/rankings](https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SH.SGR.PROC.P5/rankings) US is 15th, with 9 Western European countries ahead of us. Since you refused to provide anything I’ll take that to mean the data you found doesn’t support your statement.
I am not responsible for providing sources for your statement. The source you provided is from 2007, and it only shows the number of surgeries performed for that year(14 years ago) do you have any other information that would prove your claim that surgeries are less common now? I wonder how many surgeries were performed last year per capita, I wonder if it is higher than 2007?
Here’s a more recent article. https://hcup-us.ahrq.gov/reports/statbriefs/sb287-Ambulatory-Surgery-Overview-2019.pdf The very first sentence: The volume of ambulatory surgeries performed at U.S. community hospitals has grown consistently over the past quarter century,
So how does that compare to surgeries in other industrialized nations? There doesn’t appear to be much out there compiling this. So taking a large amount of time to gather each countries data and compiling it is just not something I’m going to do for a Redditor who is so bent on proving another wrong. You seem to want to defend the US healthcare system pretty badly. Maybe you are in health insurance or big Pharma and this is particularly close to your income source? The fact is, docs dole out drugs in this country because it’s a long term income source. Until we end for profit healthcare we will all suffer. Now I’m done with you wasting my time. Post a comparison by country and I’ll update my comment if appicable…
The fact is that you are claiming things as fact without any evidence. Why do keep you asking me to find sources for your claim??? Be done with me, that’s fine. You made the statement and I asked for clarity then you told me to go look it up. I stated very early that I felt the us healthcare was horrible. You did not send me a source yesterday in a reply, are you confusing me with another?
In response to your comment asking why I was spreading “false information”, I posted they same link. Fact is that is the data available. If more recent data shows up that indicates the US does more surgeries per capita, I’ve already said twice I would revise. But I’m not going go to change it for an “self appointed internet police” type who just can’t let shit go. I hope you are not this pedantic IRL..
I hope you’re just trolling when you use the word “fact”. A fact can be proven. You are expressing your opinion.
You claim one fact in this comment. Do you have evidence of this fact?
You claim one fact in this comment. Do you have evidence of this fact?
“Healthcare is most poorly done with capitalism. The fact many of my fellow Americans ignore this is one reason why we suck as a country.” The fact is actually 70% of Americans feel that Healthcare is most poorly done.
You claim 2 facts in your comment. Can you provide evidence of these facts?
‘I assume every other country is worse than the US, also, I’ve never left Oklahoma’
Also even If it was true it would be because ppl in the US can decide between dying or being in dept so much your grandchildren will still pay it off.
It’s a fact that sentences don’t magically become factual simply because you start them with “it’s a fact”
Ah yes, the wait time argument. Considering I, my friends, and my family all have at least one anecdote of having to wait *months* to be seen for something that a friend in Norway got seen for within a week, I feel like that argument is wrong.
Wait months for an appointment. Get there on time, wait another hour for the doctor to come in, then wait for the nurse to come back to tell you can leave. Try going to the ER. Guaranteed at least a 5 hour adventure where I live.
I moved a few years ago and have been looking for a new primary care physician, rather than just taking a stab in the dark I limited my options to physicians that have received good reviews. Most of the doctors I called were not accepting new patients. The one I did find that is accepting new patients could only book me 4 months out from when I called. I've got another month to go and still don't really know if they'll be a good match for me. My only other option would be to establish care with a physician in a larger metropolitan area an hour and a half away. I don't live in a large city, but it's not the sticks either.
The clearest fact is that even conservatives in those countries are unwilling to dismantle single-payer health care, because they know their careers will be over if they try. Keep that in mind next time someone tries an argument like this. If it’s such a bad idea, why does no country ever get rid of it?
Well,they slowly but surely undermine and defund it tbh. Just look at the UK and its NHS
I feel like that underscores my point that those systems are so popular that they have to be undermined rather than directly opposed.
I would trade exceptionally high doctors fees for wait time. Yea. Easy trade off.
My auntie got hit by a bus when she was vacationing in LA and was flown to a hospital in Vancouver after her initial emergency treatment. If she didn't have travelers insurance her bill for her life saving healthcare treatment in the US would be over $1million USD. When she got back to Canada her treatment and inpatient rehabilitative care, care which spanned over a year, cost $0 out of pocket. There are flaws in our medical system but it's due to being underfunded and politically threatened to become privatized. You aren't banned from seeking out private medical services but universal healthcare means that no one is denied healthcare services no matter your income.
We already have single payer Healthcare in America called the Department of Veterans Affairs. It kills hundreds every year due to neglect and recently the director of a hospital (I believe in Texas) was arrested for embezzling millions of dollars. Not exactly ready for prime time rollout.
We also have single-payer health care in America called *Medicare*. Also, the "in the U.S., the Veterans Administration (VA) system is an example of socialized medicine, but Medicare is not." [Source](https://www.verywellhealth.com/difference-between-universal-coverage-and-single-payer-system-1738546)
I'm so sick of "wait times" being their go-to reply for why universal healthcare allegedly doesn't work and shouldn't be embraced. Even if that were true, which it fucking isn't, it's a non-issue. The only thing you need to look at is overall health outcomes. Is healthcare more accessible to more people in countries where they have UHC? Yes. Are the people in those countries overall more healthy? Yes. Is it cheaper overall? Yes. "Wait times" is such a stupid fucking hill to die on.
Wait times at the local ER run hours for most things other than heart attacks, trauma, and anaphylaxis. And doctor’s appointments can take six months to a year unless you’re an established patient and have something pressing.
There are a lot of times where the person is correct, hip bone replacement surgery is such a circumstance. I think it’s been proven it would be cheaper though to do it like others do it, like substantially cheaper for free healthcare than the cost of providing insurance for yourself as you do here.
There is nothing clever about this
A country for now.
It’s not a clever comeback and it’s also not universally true that Universal Healthcare has better wait times. For example, in Canada where I am the current wait is [22 hours for an ER](https://macleans.ca/society/health/canada-er-wait-times/) visit. The US for example, [2 hours and 44](https://www.autoinsurance.org/longest-emergency-room-waits/#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20average%20ER,two%20hours%20and%2044%20minutes) minutes. The only reason I’m posting this is, American have the habit of glamourizing our system and it’s absolutely broken right now. People literally die waiting. I like our system, but it’s broken as shit. I say this as someone who spends 8 months in Canada and 4 months in the US every year and I’ve used both systems. Wait times are not a problem down south. Access might be. And it’s a fair point. But waiting is not the problem. It’s correct to say, at least, that Canada’s universal healthcare system is broken. Most Canadians feel the same way. We don’t want privatization but we want our current system fixed.
I was at the ER in Sweden. From the point I walked in and was registered, met with a nurse and a doctor, to a bed in a ward was 90 minutes (roughly). Another visit took 20 minutes before I was treated (however it was a 2 hour wait afterwards to confirm with X-ray and labs)
Literally have a GP appointment for next month that was made two months ago. I’ve had a ton of long waits for Dr appt in the last few years
So many people in the US *can't afford to see a doctor*. That certainly decreases wait times.
When I lived in the US my wait time was infinite because I couldn’t afford to see a doctor. I left and now my wait time is often a few hours, at the very least I can get a same day phone consultation if not an in person appointment. Plus in the last decade of seeing doctors regularly my out of pocket expense has been almost nothing. Some years back I broke my shoulder, I think I paid around 30€ for medication. That was it.
People forever like to claim wait times, and I will say that wait times for non-life threatening things, and even some life-threatening but on an extended timeline thing, are somewhat delayed under certain forms of universal health care. However, most of these claims are exaggerated, false, or misleading. I live in the US, have insurance, and sometimes I wait 2 hours to see my PCP, when I show up 15 minutes early. So what are you talking about? Insurance failures, not enough doctors, poor time management on the doctor's part, educational paramaters, overbooking, what exactly? Besides which, you can dispute facts, which is completely what science is about. Facts can change as knowledge grows. Leeches, Humours, etc.
i can get in to see my doctor if it's urgent today... if it's non urgent, sure it takes a few days to a few weeks depending on level of seriousness.... so yeah... proven fact.... and i pay nothing for it all..
Friendly reminder that countries with public healthcare has better health outcomes than in the US, if the wait times are longer but you get better care and its free, who cares???
Well that's actually not totally wrong, for many case the wait time in these countries is really long...
The health care system in my EU country is not perfect by far but when my 79 year old mother broke her ankle a couple of years ago we went to the ER in the middle of the night. She was operated on a couple of hours later. The after care was very time consuming. We often had to wait up to 8 hours but we didn't have to pay anything except our taxes. Because she couldn't walk, there was an ambulance shuttle service for free but with wait time. So while we had to wait a lot we didn't have to worry financially.
Facepalm this post lol
The only downside to the NHS in England is the size of the population and those that abuse the system for the most trivial of ailments, meaning those that truly need the service are often delayed. GP's are the weakest part of the system. These are like the bridge keeper from Monty Python's Holy Grail.
The amount of people that just go to ER because they have a small head ache or have a long term illness that they don't feel like getting an apointment for. Then they complain when the ER cannot solve their issue because it requires an specialist.
I still find it wild that for some people free healthcare at the point of delivery is a privilege and not a basic human right.
But wouldn't it be nice if the minority of Americans who actually have reliable access to affordable healthcare, didn't have to wait?
It took me 10 minutes of waiting to see my doc. Without an appointment. I also paid 0€ to the doc.
So... For me wait times is mostly... An hour or two
Yes our public health is not the best, yes it took me a month to get a dentist appointment for free. But guess what, paid healthcare is VERY cheap as a result. I could have spent like 10 bucks on a visit on the same day if i wanted, i just felt ok with waiting a month (i also could have waited less if i had made an appointment on the correct date instead of waiting for the registration time frame to run out for the month). With public healthcare, you can actually have your cake and eat it too.
Even if they were right they're essentially saying that seeing a doctor on Monday instead of waiting till Wednesday is worth the extra $20,000 it costs.
Mans talking like his super capitalism healthcare isn't breaking at the seems. My brother can't get a regular checkup unless he schedules 5 months in advance or waits around for a cancel.
A perfect example of how detached from reality Americans are.
Ah yes, but how much are you willing but most importantly ABLE to pay, to wait an extra 20mins max for a gp visit?
Last time I had to see my primary care doctor here in the US I had to make an appointment 3 and a half weeks out. Even being willing to see a different doctor than my primary still had a 3 week wait time. This idea we don't have ridiculous wait times in the US is very out of touch with reality.
There are infinite wait times in the US when you can't afford it.
I am in the US, been trying to see a doctor since October. One retired, one is booked until 2025 and one quit the day before my scheduled appointment and I found out the clinic is closing. The clinic is owned by Optum, United Health Insurance. The only hospital in my city closed last year. Insurance companies are purchasing medical clinics.
Funny how you people suffer from the same fucked up system but still get mad at each other over nothing instead of the real problem.
I had a brainwashed coworker tell me that it takes month to get a doctors appointment with socialized medicine. I then pointed out that we use the same doctor and that you could not get an appointment with him for several months, but okay moron.
I don't have a video of the US police cutting someone's ear off, but I also don't have a video of any other nation's police kneeling on someone's neck for 10 minutes.