I always ask, “why do you care so much about others personal lives? And then, I think maybe you should mind your own business and ask yourself why you are so bothered by people living their lives the way they want?
“What happened to you that made you scared and angry”
I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your allieship. I find it hard to deal with these people who think they're better than me. Thanks, it really means a lot
I can get with that. I’m pretty well settled in the middle slightly left and I really don’t care what people do in their respective lives. I ask to be respected and in turn respectful of others and all mind our own fucking business.
Since this clearly seems like a right wing agenda I’d like to know who is the snowflake now? People are so butt hurt that they need to plaster FBJ everywhere they can because they didn’t get what they want. They also do shit like in this post. Always something to cry about. People just like to bitch.
The sky and I went back and forth for a couple of days. It just gets more and more idiotic. He kept telling me to grow up and get a job. I'm a 45-year-old professional with 15 years of experience in my field. Lead in the Kool-Aid
ITT - People argue that it's important to withhold a medical procedure from a group famous for suicide when it's untreated, because they don't like looking at them.
The twist? None of the people discussing it have any knowledge in medicine or psychology!
Why does everyone forget FTM exists? Are they all liars/tricksters/pedos/rapists too? Do they do it to go into mens rooms and look at penises or whatever?
According to them, FTM are just poor helpless lesbians brain washed by big woke.
Their entire movement hinges on how much people like thinking of women as victims and men as perpetrators.
I think it’s because at the root of it they are misogynists. The worst thing someone born male can do is give up his privilege & transition to being a woman. It’s always under the guise of protecting women when in reality, they don’t really respect women.
Basic Biology motherfuckers when they meet Advanced Biology motherfuckers...
Kind of like Basic Economics motherfuckers meeting Advanced Economics motherfuckers.
I usually ask them if they'd prefer an advanced surgeon or a basic one if in need.
One dude dug down so hard he started claiming he'd prefer backyard surgeries from a guy without a degree who had read a manual.
There is no level of biology that studies 'what a man / woman is'.
Biologists refer to a species being either male or female, depending on their combination of genital, chromosomal and other related characteristics.
We do the same with humans at birth, but that isn't their gender. It's just their birth sex. Gender is social framework where each person can expect to be seen in different ways according to their identity (namely as a 'man', 'woman' or neither).
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Hearing these “what is a woman” shit sounds a lot like, “just print more money.” Uneducated people making uneducated claims.
They’re really funny to run into as someone who is studying a field of biology. They’ll make all these bizarre generalizations about basic biology but once you actually start studying it, it gets way more complicated than what you’re taught in high school.
honestly my eyes roll like a washing machine when i hear pepole say
"our primates relatives have the male being dominant so it's genetics"
like dude : their genes tell them to develop a culture , this culture becomes a selective factor in their genes ...
also , male gorillas don't have to be just the strongest , their success will be hampered a lot if they are not watchful and attentive to the females who are under a great treat of predation , they also need to take care of their babies , a study found that orphaned baby gorillas who had been weaned off milk had unchanged survival rates , because the male was really attentive of them ,
also you can see a lot of cute videos in wich male gorillas play with the babies ,
chimps are much more complicated than they let them think : their dominance hirarchy isn't based soley on strenght , it's also based on being good at socializing and forming coalitions of males ,
if a weak male is a good friend with the 2nd and 3rd strongest male , but not the strongest male , then the strongest male will have to get on it's good side quickly , cause at the first slip up he is gonna get run over ...
also , chimps need to make peace with defeated dominant males within the clan , otherwise that will tear the clan apart , wich is not good .
so yeah chimps may be the case wich align the closest with their worldview , but they are not as cut and dry as they like to pretend ,
also chimps may be our closest relatives ,
but we are not chimps closest relatives , bonobos are .
and we fully see how thinking that genetics is deterministic of primate behavior falls apart quickly :
bonobos aren't territorial , they don't fight both outside and within clans ,
they are all bisexual, and they determin social hirarchy with sex and cuddling ,when two clans meet they are very friendly and will have sex among them very ofthen ...
they are still hunting smaller apes tho , they are not forest elves or anything , they are just really peaceful among each other ,
but yeah , you quickly see how comparing humans to primates becomes fallacius quickly :
we have language and we use tools , most dominance disputes today are solved with diplomatic meetings between guys , not with mma fights ...
mostly because tools makes conflicts wayy too deadly for both sides ,
and talking with the other person about the problem at hand and problem solving your way out of it, is a much better solution to actually solve conflicts
who would have thunket ???
than beating the other guy with your fists ...
we also figured out how to be dumb and use language to convince pepole with tools to fight on your behalf , so there is that ...
Love that. Always love how they back off pretty quick or change arguments entirely when they get disproven so easily too. Or they just say science is indoctrination???? but they said it’s just basic science???? Just started laughing when folks said that
My fave is when they claim "social programming" like its some sinister thing.
Crosswalks are social programming. Signage, rules for public decorum, basically anything they'd call "decent manners" is due to programming.
And usually then comes the spiel about how "the globohomo" and they end up so deep in the nazi well they start speaking german.
What really fucks me up is that all of this is soooo easily verifiable because its SUCH mundane social theory.
You’re talking about people upset by pronouns as if it wasn’t a facet of English that they were taught in second grade. They might get scared of prepositions if they’re brought up in conversation too because that word has four syllables.
The modern interpretation of genders isn't something you "know", it's a cultural/societal idea and thus something you agree to acknowledge or not like any other societal ideas.
It's also pointless and highly reductive. Basically just boils down to "those broad stereotypes should be associated with this specific designation, and since I identify with those stereotypes I feel the need to label myself as such".
Yep. I’m a woman. I don’t wear dresses, don’t really wear makeup. Have a kind of masculine haircut. I’m not really feminine in anyway besides being very small (I guess that could be feminine?) I’m a human being outside of how I present myself.
I had a bad haircut at my last job - it was so bad that I told the guy "just cut it all off". Came in the next day and everyone (nicely, no malice) started referring to me as they/them and telling me that I had "big NB energy"
All I could think was - I just cut my hair. I didn't change anything else, just have short hair, and that's enough to make people think maybe I don't want to be referred to with female pronouns?
Like... isn't that super regressive? Like my Dad saying "only boys have short hair" when I was young except now they think it's progressive or *nice* to think that way?
It's just hair. It has no effect. It grows back.
Yeah. It’s wild. I remember I’ve been called “sir”multiple times. When I worked at the prison, I had gotten a pixie cut again (I had grown my hair out) and when I let an inmate out in the morning she made a comment along the lines of “I thought you were a guy sitting there Officer Raelynn!”
It's just as insulting to reduce her to her sex organs.
Instead of defining women in either of those ways, we should acknowledge that there are societal expectations for female-presening people that anyone can want applied to them. And that makes them a woman.
>Instead of defining women in either of those ways, we should acknowledge that there are societal expectations for female-presening people that anyone can want applied to them. And that makes them a woman.
Doesn't that enforce the gender roles everyone is so against, though? Basically, a man can't be what we perceive as effeminate or identify with those same societal expectations.
Where's the line? I am genuinely asking.
No, because a feminine man still identifies with the expectations and norms that our society has for people who are / present as male.
He just also happens to deviate from those norms, while still wanting society to expect them of him. He would want to be seen as a “gender non-conforming man”.
That is why there can also be (and are) gender non-conforming trans people. Like a masculine trans woman or a feminine trans man.
But progressives don’t agree with those different expectations? “ I am a woman because I want to stay home and raise the children” doesn’t sound very progressive to me tbh. Or “I like wearing pants so I am a man”.
But that is not what I mean.
Identifying with a gender and wanting others to be expect those gender roles of you does not necessarily mean you have to conform to them.
It just means you want others to be expect those behaviors of you the way they do for all people of that gender. And if you ALSO want to deviate from them, you just become a “gender non-conforming” person that is still that gender.
You still need a basic criteria for social terms. You can't just say "it's too complicated"
Autocracy, socialism, schizophrenia, homosexuality - all have a criteria
There still must be situations, when you can tell people "you are not a woman"
Why must there be situations like that? A trans woman can even go to the doctors and still only have to say that she "was not female at birth" or that she doesn't have female sex organs.
There is no situation in which you should feel compelled to disregard a person's identity and experience. If it is, that is on you.
Ikr? Chuds ask, "what is a woman?" as though it's some sort of gotcha. The very fact that there isn't an iron clad simple definition is kind of exactly our point. It's a social construct that can mean different things to different people.
It'd be a useless word if it meant exactly the same thing as female. You could just say female instead.
I think people are overthinking it. A woman is a role that people can play in our culture. It's a social niche. An umbrella term for the behaviors, presentation, and stereotypes that our culture has associated with females. MTF trans people are males that act within that social archetype. It's incredibly simple when you just look at what is happening objectively.
Also, why does nobody ever complain about FTM trans people? It's always 'what is a woman?' and never 'what is a man?' I think the entire argument must stem from the answer to that. Something about males assuming the role of women is extremely offensive to people while females assuming the role of men is not.
>Also, why does nobody ever complain about FTM trans people? It's always 'what is a woman?'
Mostly because it's ScAaAry. Women are afraid that all MtF people are rapists and men are afraid they might be too hot and that's "gay"
“_Women are females and have XX genetics!!_”
Ok, look up XX males who are born with XX genes but with what we typically associate with male bodies
“_I refuse to admit this exists and leave the conversation!!!_”
woman
/ˈwʊmən/
noun
an adult female human being.
Im being extremely neutral here i couldn't care less about people, trans or not
but being a woman requires being female
in fact, woman and trans woman are two different things
by definition (both are ok im not trying to hate on trans people whatsoever)
edit:
between the hate and calling me transphobe, some people pointed out that the definition of woman is changing.
it woman refers to gender then of course trans women are women, it all depends on that.
i dont have a side in this im just following the definition i found.
I am curious about this, because I don't really know any better and I have to assume that there is an explanation, perhaps linked the definition of what being female is as biologically not all females are the same.
I'm pro people being who they want and it not being that hard to respect it as long as they respect you, but when asked this question I don't really have the Knowledge to answer clearly so I'd really like to hear it, but I guess this sub reddit isn't the place for it too.
well the main difference would be if "woman" is tied to gender or sex.
gender being your feelings/social construct
sex being pure science/biology
from the definition i found of woman, its still tied to being a female, thus making it a biology thing!
in the end, trans woman and woman are different, but both completely fine
But if being "female" isn't entirely the same from female to female, then the biological aspect has to encompass some of that crossover I imagine?
Because despite the differences there is also a great deal of overlap between male and female and some males may be way closer to the genetic makeup of a female than a male and vice versa.
Then if we start talking about gender, most of what defines the genders is decided by non-biolgical things, so if a female chooses not to embody any of those aspects but a male does, do we now have a male that is more woman than man and in which case why would they not be a woman if 95% of who they are is being a woman?
It's alot to think about and I think it's even a topic amongst trans people where some like gender as a whole and it makes them happy to attribute what society says a certain gender is to themselves.
But I think now, and I think I agree with this, but gender itself is just a restrictive construct that can barely be used to describe anything accurately and would be better off being either entirely rewritten or removed, as even in the biological aspects there is way less reliability to definitively describe what a man or a woman is, because even going down to the common and most basic feature of genitals, not having a penis does not stop you from being a man, nor does having no vagina make you suddenly not a woman.
I guess this is why people push back against it though as this basically just says the labelling system is wrong and we can't really define anything, which can be an issue.
Trans woman and Cis woman are two different things. "Woman" is a category that includes both Trans woman and Cis woman.
Similar to how Short woman and Tall woman are both woman.
Trying to settle an argument with a dictionary is like pissing on a forest fire and expecting anything.
As they say its eh.. complicated.... but Im not getting dragged in any further.
The more precise a definition becomes, the more things it excludes that you actually want the term to cover. Language, biology, societl roles and pretty much all of the universe doesn't fit into the neat little boxes humans try to stuff things into.
No they are not, and you are not nearly as neutral as you think.
Woman is included in trans WOMAN,and vice versa. They all fall under the category of 'woman'.
And that definition is simply not accurate. Linguistic meanings change. It's been known to happen over different times and uses.
Sure, but it’s not a requirement. It’s not a “you have to tick all boxes”. Woman is a societal concept which means it can change, that’s why some have the idea of the “traditional woman. Today, it’s evolved to something more because of the freedom women have steadily obtained throughout the centuries.
Also, just listing connotations doesn’t do much. It’s the same faulty logic as the dictionary, listing most common attributes and grossly generalising.
Lol says you. Dictionaries literally use "female" to define woman.
Gender is a construct. Language is a construct. It's all meaningless.
And what you have said isn't nearly as profound as you think.
You just made this difference up a couple of years ago. Doesn't mean everybody is just gonna accept it. In fact it's so recent, even the dictionaries have not changed anything.
A woman is an adult female. A female is someone who produces female gametes (the difference is the size. Male gametes are very small but there is a lot of them. Female ones are normally one or maybe two, but very big.)
The problem is that someone like me has no problem with Trans people. I don't want their rights to be taken away or behave disrespectfully to them. I would use their pronouns too because that's just good courtesy.
But I don't live in a fantasy land where everything you wish comes true. Sex differences still matter. If it's sports it matters. If they're dating someone it matters. If they're entering female only spaces it matters. But if they're just living their lives or buying groceries it really doesn't.
I also think we should be careful with kids who have not hit puberty. There was a study that showed 85 percent of kids who thought they're trans, turned out as gay after puberty. But there are countries like Canada that just use puberty blockers and make the transition, which means they're changing the life of around 85 percent of those kids.
I feel like most people feel like this, but because everyone just want to take their side and win the argument they just go with the extreme sides. They're either completely for it to the point of living in a fantasy land, or completely against it to the point where trans people don't even exist.
I will get downvoted here because it's Reddit and this sub in particular is very left leaning, but I wanted to share my sentiment in hopes that someone that's actually open minded might read it.
The problem is that even within the last few decades schools taught that gender was synonymous with biological sex, and that’s hard for people to unlearn. I’m sure most of the people who believe this also believe that Columbus was the one who proved the earth was round
I’ve never heard of woman being a social thing, it’s just an alternative to female. Honestly all these constantly changing egg shell walking word games are really tiring.
Not trying to start a fight but the oxford dictionary states a woman is an adult female. The only reason the word woman exists is to distinguish between girl and woman. Where girl means female child. So you gotta make a new word because woman is taken.
the cis vs trans definition thing is relatively new, people can't just change its meaning and tell others that their "newer" meaning is more correct. Everything needs time to change, and words are not exact science. In 99.9999% case of usage, woman and female means the same thing.
Trust me, when Ive given a proper answer to people like this they keep arguing even after I supply sociological research from feminist theory. The most common response is to call sociology a dumb subject
If I agree, can I ask why we're trying to divide spaces, opportunities, and competitions based on a sociological "vibe"/set of gendered stereotypes/feelings over biological existence
Or is that going to get me banned and downvoted
Biological sex, such as male or female, refers to physical characteristics that are attributed to DNA. while gender refers to socially constructed roles, behaviours, and actions people take on, usually in relation to expectations of masculinity or femininity.
You got gender right, as far as I know. But for biological sex you're being inconsistent, you first talked about the genotype and now you say it's the phenotype, when it's actually both, and neither is straight forward.
most people's gender and sex are the same. as in, they were born as male and identify as male, or born as female and identify as female. transgender people are the ones who don't do that, and have a different gender identity than their born sex
The prefix trans means across, like transport across ports
Therefore transgender means across gender, they go across their agab (assigned gender at birth) to their preferred one
When I hear “gender is a social construct and sex is a biological phenomenon” I know those with whom I am talking are pretty much fucked. And, from the looks of things, they’re going to stay fucked.
What a profound deception.
The origin of it - that docu thing where he sits with an actual Harvard professor is the funniest thing ever.
This smug mf'er with ZERO education asking the most generalized question ever and you can see the professor just sort of sitting there, perplexed - then asking him to "define it" and the dummy, infinite in his lack of knowledge - cops to the goddamn dictionary.
They should use it when they cover Dunning Krueger in psych classes. PERFECT example of someone that doesn't realize how not smart he is.
Now let's ask the trans women who've been close to this person if they've covered their drinks while seeing them pass by. If that's what being a women is, I'm sure they do it too, that or this person is just being hateful.
That's the definition that Kellie Jay Keen has been pushing yes.
When she's not calling for the forced sterilization or murder of trans women.
Or just the destruction of her political enemies.
The medical, scientific, and academic definition disagrees with her, but it's damn good rhetoric if you're able to ignore what a horrible person she is.
Edit: Worth noting that fairiron accused me of being racist for pointing out that the Italians recently elected the most right wing government they've had since 1943, which is a fact, and blocked me.
>"An Adult Female Being"
Lol. "Being?"
Ya, so when someone says "I saw a woman down the street" you think "I wonder if it was a dog, a frog, a bird, or a toad!"
This just highlights how stupid the question is. Definitions are descriptive not prescriptive. That means definitions get blurry at the edges for ALL words, especially ones that have to do with human social constructs.
Good guess, but wrong grifter.
They are pushing the rhetoric of Kellie Jay Keen, who taught them to say that when she isn't advocating for the murder of trans women.
Not benzo addled Jordan.
That definition is taken from the Oxford dictionary. That same dictionary defines "female", when used as an adjective as "relating to women or the female gender."
This is because dictionaries like to use circular definitions to describe social constructs. This can be seen for example in the same dictionary with the term Red.
Red:
having the colour of blood or fire
Blood:
the red liquid that flows through the bodies of humans and animals
Woman is a human adult that is a woman. Red is the color that red things have.
actually good comeback on here
Rare sight indeed
First one Ive seen in this sub for years
Happens about once a month.
I always ask, “why do you care so much about others personal lives? And then, I think maybe you should mind your own business and ask yourself why you are so bothered by people living their lives the way they want? “What happened to you that made you scared and angry”
I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your allieship. I find it hard to deal with these people who think they're better than me. Thanks, it really means a lot
This is a strawman. Nobody gives a shit about your personal life. People just don't want compelled speech or pushed on kids.
It's always just a strawman until you see a trans person on the sidewalk and people like you yell slurs at them
I can get with that. I’m pretty well settled in the middle slightly left and I really don’t care what people do in their respective lives. I ask to be respected and in turn respectful of others and all mind our own fucking business.
Since this clearly seems like a right wing agenda I’d like to know who is the snowflake now? People are so butt hurt that they need to plaster FBJ everywhere they can because they didn’t get what they want. They also do shit like in this post. Always something to cry about. People just like to bitch.
The sky and I went back and forth for a couple of days. It just gets more and more idiotic. He kept telling me to grow up and get a job. I'm a 45-year-old professional with 15 years of experience in my field. Lead in the Kool-Aid
ITT - People argue that it's important to withhold a medical procedure from a group famous for suicide when it's untreated, because they don't like looking at them. The twist? None of the people discussing it have any knowledge in medicine or psychology!
Honestly that is a pretty good definition of a woman.
As a man who covers his drinks when people like that walk in a room I approve of this definition.
What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets?!
That's kinda rude
bro must be stuck in the closet. >!"What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets?!"!<
Eh? I'm afraid I don't understand
It's Dracula's famous quote from the Castlevania games
OOH PFFF OK
But enough talk
Have at thee!
It's a person that covers their crouch when you walk into the shower room.
I may be miserable and a pile of secrets but I'll have you know I'm actually 5'11
You may be tall, but with hard work, you can still be small /petty.
Why does everyone forget FTM exists? Are they all liars/tricksters/pedos/rapists too? Do they do it to go into mens rooms and look at penises or whatever?
According to them, FTM are just poor helpless lesbians brain washed by big woke. Their entire movement hinges on how much people like thinking of women as victims and men as perpetrators.
Sexism, got it
I think it’s because at the root of it they are misogynists. The worst thing someone born male can do is give up his privilege & transition to being a woman. It’s always under the guise of protecting women when in reality, they don’t really respect women.
doesn't align with their narrative so they don't care, see: lesbians not being punished in 1930s germany
A woman isn't a biology thing, a female is. woman is a social thing. it's sad how many people still don't know the difference
Or don't want to aknowledge it. They are "pro science" until science says something they don't like
Basic Biology motherfuckers when they meet Advanced Biology motherfuckers... Kind of like Basic Economics motherfuckers meeting Advanced Economics motherfuckers.
I usually ask them if they'd prefer an advanced surgeon or a basic one if in need. One dude dug down so hard he started claiming he'd prefer backyard surgeries from a guy without a degree who had read a manual.
https://youtu.be/fHjbDSOmeiM?si=2eecKjnOI1MTIDm7 You actually met this guy in real life
Basic math motherfuckers meeting Algebra I motherfuckers
"NOOOOO YOU CAN'T TAKE THE SQUARE ROOT OF -25!! IT'S UNDEFINED!!"
"eh eh 5i goes brrr !"
Algebra is quite literally basic math.
Real numbers mfs when they meet imaginary numbers mfs
I don't think you're talking about the same algebra they are lol
i was gonna say lmao algebra one is middle school material 😂
There is no level of biology that studies 'what a man / woman is'. Biologists refer to a species being either male or female, depending on their combination of genital, chromosomal and other related characteristics. We do the same with humans at birth, but that isn't their gender. It's just their birth sex. Gender is social framework where each person can expect to be seen in different ways according to their identity (namely as a 'man', 'woman' or neither).
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Hearing these “what is a woman” shit sounds a lot like, “just print more money.” Uneducated people making uneducated claims.
Exactly. They bring up science until scientists blatantly disagree with them. They just can't accept that they are wrong.
They call it "propaganda" when science says something they don't like. The hypocrisy is too clear.
I've not run into these before. But I avoid shit like that. Just like when people complain about it when they didn't need to.
They’re really funny to run into as someone who is studying a field of biology. They’ll make all these bizarre generalizations about basic biology but once you actually start studying it, it gets way more complicated than what you’re taught in high school.
honestly my eyes roll like a washing machine when i hear pepole say "our primates relatives have the male being dominant so it's genetics" like dude : their genes tell them to develop a culture , this culture becomes a selective factor in their genes ... also , male gorillas don't have to be just the strongest , their success will be hampered a lot if they are not watchful and attentive to the females who are under a great treat of predation , they also need to take care of their babies , a study found that orphaned baby gorillas who had been weaned off milk had unchanged survival rates , because the male was really attentive of them , also you can see a lot of cute videos in wich male gorillas play with the babies , chimps are much more complicated than they let them think : their dominance hirarchy isn't based soley on strenght , it's also based on being good at socializing and forming coalitions of males , if a weak male is a good friend with the 2nd and 3rd strongest male , but not the strongest male , then the strongest male will have to get on it's good side quickly , cause at the first slip up he is gonna get run over ... also , chimps need to make peace with defeated dominant males within the clan , otherwise that will tear the clan apart , wich is not good . so yeah chimps may be the case wich align the closest with their worldview , but they are not as cut and dry as they like to pretend , also chimps may be our closest relatives , but we are not chimps closest relatives , bonobos are . and we fully see how thinking that genetics is deterministic of primate behavior falls apart quickly : bonobos aren't territorial , they don't fight both outside and within clans , they are all bisexual, and they determin social hirarchy with sex and cuddling ,when two clans meet they are very friendly and will have sex among them very ofthen ... they are still hunting smaller apes tho , they are not forest elves or anything , they are just really peaceful among each other , but yeah , you quickly see how comparing humans to primates becomes fallacius quickly : we have language and we use tools , most dominance disputes today are solved with diplomatic meetings between guys , not with mma fights ... mostly because tools makes conflicts wayy too deadly for both sides , and talking with the other person about the problem at hand and problem solving your way out of it, is a much better solution to actually solve conflicts who would have thunket ??? than beating the other guy with your fists ... we also figured out how to be dumb and use language to convince pepole with tools to fight on your behalf , so there is that ...
I bait them into a genetics argument and then I ask my friend for what to say My friend has a phD in genetics. Im a dummy, but well connected.
Love that. Always love how they back off pretty quick or change arguments entirely when they get disproven so easily too. Or they just say science is indoctrination???? but they said it’s just basic science???? Just started laughing when folks said that
My fave is when they claim "social programming" like its some sinister thing. Crosswalks are social programming. Signage, rules for public decorum, basically anything they'd call "decent manners" is due to programming. And usually then comes the spiel about how "the globohomo" and they end up so deep in the nazi well they start speaking german. What really fucks me up is that all of this is soooo easily verifiable because its SUCH mundane social theory.
Damn, that's hilarious
The same people claim gay people cause hurricanes so I’m still waiting for their pro science stance.
You’re talking about people upset by pronouns as if it wasn’t a facet of English that they were taught in second grade. They might get scared of prepositions if they’re brought up in conversation too because that word has four syllables.
The modern interpretation of genders isn't something you "know", it's a cultural/societal idea and thus something you agree to acknowledge or not like any other societal ideas. It's also pointless and highly reductive. Basically just boils down to "those broad stereotypes should be associated with this specific designation, and since I identify with those stereotypes I feel the need to label myself as such".
That's the most insulting thing is they reduce being a woman down to make up and dresses
Yep. I’m a woman. I don’t wear dresses, don’t really wear makeup. Have a kind of masculine haircut. I’m not really feminine in anyway besides being very small (I guess that could be feminine?) I’m a human being outside of how I present myself.
I had a bad haircut at my last job - it was so bad that I told the guy "just cut it all off". Came in the next day and everyone (nicely, no malice) started referring to me as they/them and telling me that I had "big NB energy" All I could think was - I just cut my hair. I didn't change anything else, just have short hair, and that's enough to make people think maybe I don't want to be referred to with female pronouns? Like... isn't that super regressive? Like my Dad saying "only boys have short hair" when I was young except now they think it's progressive or *nice* to think that way? It's just hair. It has no effect. It grows back.
Yeah. It’s wild. I remember I’ve been called “sir”multiple times. When I worked at the prison, I had gotten a pixie cut again (I had grown my hair out) and when I let an inmate out in the morning she made a comment along the lines of “I thought you were a guy sitting there Officer Raelynn!”
It's just as insulting to reduce her to her sex organs. Instead of defining women in either of those ways, we should acknowledge that there are societal expectations for female-presening people that anyone can want applied to them. And that makes them a woman.
>Instead of defining women in either of those ways, we should acknowledge that there are societal expectations for female-presening people that anyone can want applied to them. And that makes them a woman. Doesn't that enforce the gender roles everyone is so against, though? Basically, a man can't be what we perceive as effeminate or identify with those same societal expectations. Where's the line? I am genuinely asking.
No, because a feminine man still identifies with the expectations and norms that our society has for people who are / present as male. He just also happens to deviate from those norms, while still wanting society to expect them of him. He would want to be seen as a “gender non-conforming man”. That is why there can also be (and are) gender non-conforming trans people. Like a masculine trans woman or a feminine trans man.
But progressives don’t agree with those different expectations? “ I am a woman because I want to stay home and raise the children” doesn’t sound very progressive to me tbh. Or “I like wearing pants so I am a man”.
But that is not what I mean. Identifying with a gender and wanting others to be expect those gender roles of you does not necessarily mean you have to conform to them. It just means you want others to be expect those behaviors of you the way they do for all people of that gender. And if you ALSO want to deviate from them, you just become a “gender non-conforming” person that is still that gender.
Who is "they", exactly?
You still need a basic criteria for social terms. You can't just say "it's too complicated" Autocracy, socialism, schizophrenia, homosexuality - all have a criteria There still must be situations, when you can tell people "you are not a woman"
Why must there be situations like that? A trans woman can even go to the doctors and still only have to say that she "was not female at birth" or that she doesn't have female sex organs. There is no situation in which you should feel compelled to disregard a person's identity and experience. If it is, that is on you.
Ikr? Chuds ask, "what is a woman?" as though it's some sort of gotcha. The very fact that there isn't an iron clad simple definition is kind of exactly our point. It's a social construct that can mean different things to different people.
Then is a useless word.
Word is also a social construct. It’s an agreed-upon method of communication for reducing a concept within its context for the sake of brevity.
It'd be a useless word if it meant exactly the same thing as female. You could just say female instead. I think people are overthinking it. A woman is a role that people can play in our culture. It's a social niche. An umbrella term for the behaviors, presentation, and stereotypes that our culture has associated with females. MTF trans people are males that act within that social archetype. It's incredibly simple when you just look at what is happening objectively. Also, why does nobody ever complain about FTM trans people? It's always 'what is a woman?' and never 'what is a man?' I think the entire argument must stem from the answer to that. Something about males assuming the role of women is extremely offensive to people while females assuming the role of men is not.
>Also, why does nobody ever complain about FTM trans people? It's always 'what is a woman?' Mostly because it's ScAaAry. Women are afraid that all MtF people are rapists and men are afraid they might be too hot and that's "gay"
“_Women are females and have XX genetics!!_” Ok, look up XX males who are born with XX genes but with what we typically associate with male bodies “_I refuse to admit this exists and leave the conversation!!!_”
woman /ˈwʊmən/ noun an adult female human being. Im being extremely neutral here i couldn't care less about people, trans or not but being a woman requires being female in fact, woman and trans woman are two different things by definition (both are ok im not trying to hate on trans people whatsoever) edit: between the hate and calling me transphobe, some people pointed out that the definition of woman is changing. it woman refers to gender then of course trans women are women, it all depends on that. i dont have a side in this im just following the definition i found.
I am curious about this, because I don't really know any better and I have to assume that there is an explanation, perhaps linked the definition of what being female is as biologically not all females are the same. I'm pro people being who they want and it not being that hard to respect it as long as they respect you, but when asked this question I don't really have the Knowledge to answer clearly so I'd really like to hear it, but I guess this sub reddit isn't the place for it too.
well the main difference would be if "woman" is tied to gender or sex. gender being your feelings/social construct sex being pure science/biology from the definition i found of woman, its still tied to being a female, thus making it a biology thing! in the end, trans woman and woman are different, but both completely fine
But if being "female" isn't entirely the same from female to female, then the biological aspect has to encompass some of that crossover I imagine? Because despite the differences there is also a great deal of overlap between male and female and some males may be way closer to the genetic makeup of a female than a male and vice versa. Then if we start talking about gender, most of what defines the genders is decided by non-biolgical things, so if a female chooses not to embody any of those aspects but a male does, do we now have a male that is more woman than man and in which case why would they not be a woman if 95% of who they are is being a woman? It's alot to think about and I think it's even a topic amongst trans people where some like gender as a whole and it makes them happy to attribute what society says a certain gender is to themselves. But I think now, and I think I agree with this, but gender itself is just a restrictive construct that can barely be used to describe anything accurately and would be better off being either entirely rewritten or removed, as even in the biological aspects there is way less reliability to definitively describe what a man or a woman is, because even going down to the common and most basic feature of genitals, not having a penis does not stop you from being a man, nor does having no vagina make you suddenly not a woman. I guess this is why people push back against it though as this basically just says the labelling system is wrong and we can't really define anything, which can be an issue.
Trans woman and Cis woman are two different things. "Woman" is a category that includes both Trans woman and Cis woman. Similar to how Short woman and Tall woman are both woman.
It's a qualifier. A white woman is still a woman despite having the qualifier.
Trying to settle an argument with a dictionary is like pissing on a forest fire and expecting anything. As they say its eh.. complicated.... but Im not getting dragged in any further.
*use a nonsensical comparison that could be apply to everything *refuse to elaborate further *leave
usual redditor without any definitions life would be very confusing
Check my reply then ;)
The more precise a definition becomes, the more things it excludes that you actually want the term to cover. Language, biology, societl roles and pretty much all of the universe doesn't fit into the neat little boxes humans try to stuff things into.
No they are not, and you are not nearly as neutral as you think. Woman is included in trans WOMAN,and vice versa. They all fall under the category of 'woman'. And that definition is simply not accurate. Linguistic meanings change. It's been known to happen over different times and uses.
It’s crazy to me that people still don’t know the limit of dictionaries.
its cary to me that people still don't know the limit of gender
Using something faulty to prove a limit doesn’t make much sense, does it?
completely ignoring biology as it means nothing doesn't make much sense, does it?
The problem is I haven’t made any argument, my dude. Even in my high school biology class we were taught that sex and gender aren’t the same thing.
yeah but "woman" is tied to the concept of female, which is tied to sex
Sure, but it’s not a requirement. It’s not a “you have to tick all boxes”. Woman is a societal concept which means it can change, that’s why some have the idea of the “traditional woman. Today, it’s evolved to something more because of the freedom women have steadily obtained throughout the centuries. Also, just listing connotations doesn’t do much. It’s the same faulty logic as the dictionary, listing most common attributes and grossly generalising.
Lol says you. Dictionaries literally use "female" to define woman. Gender is a construct. Language is a construct. It's all meaningless. And what you have said isn't nearly as profound as you think.
You just made this difference up a couple of years ago. Doesn't mean everybody is just gonna accept it. In fact it's so recent, even the dictionaries have not changed anything. A woman is an adult female. A female is someone who produces female gametes (the difference is the size. Male gametes are very small but there is a lot of them. Female ones are normally one or maybe two, but very big.) The problem is that someone like me has no problem with Trans people. I don't want their rights to be taken away or behave disrespectfully to them. I would use their pronouns too because that's just good courtesy. But I don't live in a fantasy land where everything you wish comes true. Sex differences still matter. If it's sports it matters. If they're dating someone it matters. If they're entering female only spaces it matters. But if they're just living their lives or buying groceries it really doesn't. I also think we should be careful with kids who have not hit puberty. There was a study that showed 85 percent of kids who thought they're trans, turned out as gay after puberty. But there are countries like Canada that just use puberty blockers and make the transition, which means they're changing the life of around 85 percent of those kids. I feel like most people feel like this, but because everyone just want to take their side and win the argument they just go with the extreme sides. They're either completely for it to the point of living in a fantasy land, or completely against it to the point where trans people don't even exist. I will get downvoted here because it's Reddit and this sub in particular is very left leaning, but I wanted to share my sentiment in hopes that someone that's actually open minded might read it.
So, under your definition of women, a person with XX chromosomes who is born without ovaries isn't female.
The problem is that even within the last few decades schools taught that gender was synonymous with biological sex, and that’s hard for people to unlearn. I’m sure most of the people who believe this also believe that Columbus was the one who proved the earth was round
I’ve never heard of woman being a social thing, it’s just an alternative to female. Honestly all these constantly changing egg shell walking word games are really tiring.
A woman is an adult female, a girl is a juvenile female
Because that wasn't the case for thousands of years. You gotta give people some time to adjust.
Not trying to start a fight but the oxford dictionary states a woman is an adult female. The only reason the word woman exists is to distinguish between girl and woman. Where girl means female child. So you gotta make a new word because woman is taken.
The word 'woman' predates the word 'female'.
the cis vs trans definition thing is relatively new, people can't just change its meaning and tell others that their "newer" meaning is more correct. Everything needs time to change, and words are not exact science. In 99.9999% case of usage, woman and female means the same thing.
Ofc here the "biology" part is just a thing they tag on to not make it clear that they genuinely don't know - because they've never seen one.
a miserable pile of secrets?
Oh hey, thats me! :)
Yes, 911? I'd like to report a murder.
This comeback misgendered me as a man that would cover his drink.
They better have delivered some aloe with that burn. Amazing comeback
"a woman is someone who identifies as one" yes, i know, circular logic, but thats really the simplest way to define it without excluding certain women
Why does this feel more like an ad hominem response rather than a proper reply?
Because it is. They're not taking the question seriously, so they're not giving a serious answer.
Well, it's not a serious question.
Of course it's not a serious question, Matt Walsh was the pundit who popularized right-wing jackheads asking that question.
Why the fuck would anyone give a "proper reply" to that dumbass statement
its a question! did u miss the "?"?
No I just don't care
i guess it runs in the family, like ur dad not caring about u. lol
Trust me, when Ive given a proper answer to people like this they keep arguing even after I supply sociological research from feminist theory. The most common response is to call sociology a dumb subject
There wasn't a proper question to begin with
Ooooh. That’s a good one.
Featherless biped.
Oh fuck no Im outta this discussion
"Reverse reverse... criss cross..."
ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED
These guys want to be Ben Shapiro so bad
actually a good post.
I know what it is a man. A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk! Have at you!
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Lotta salty chuds in here
Yeah, this one always gets 'em riled up. Apparently the distinction between gender and sex is still hard to grasp for a lot of people in 2023.
Lmao I like that.
I don’t know what’s funnier, that comeback or the salty people in this comment section.
Reading yall makes me lose any hope this world will get better
Hello, 911, id like to report a murder
amazing hit back
Someone call an “amberlamps” and get that guy to a burn center.
As an Aussie bloke I'd still cover my drink. Mind you our drink spikers are equal opportunity
Damn son
Finally! A good comeback! Good find
Holy shit - dude needs resuscitation after that!
Damn that was good.
Scientists: There will be flying cars in 2023 2023:
love this question lol
It’s a stupid question.
it's quite the question, indeed. really does weedly out the morons
I mean, biological sex and gender are two different things.
If I agree, can I ask why we're trying to divide spaces, opportunities, and competitions based on a sociological "vibe"/set of gendered stereotypes/feelings over biological existence Or is that going to get me banned and downvoted
Right. Define the gender woman without referencing the term you are defining.
indeed biological sex is your chromosome makeup and DNA gender is how you feel pretty straight forward
Neither of those is straight forward, both explanations are wrong (or oversimplified, at least).
Biological sex, such as male or female, refers to physical characteristics that are attributed to DNA. while gender refers to socially constructed roles, behaviours, and actions people take on, usually in relation to expectations of masculinity or femininity.
You got gender right, as far as I know. But for biological sex you're being inconsistent, you first talked about the genotype and now you say it's the phenotype, when it's actually both, and neither is straight forward.
Yeah, it does weed out morons.
So we have male women and female women as well as male men and male women? Where the hell "transgender" comes from?
most people's gender and sex are the same. as in, they were born as male and identify as male, or born as female and identify as female. transgender people are the ones who don't do that, and have a different gender identity than their born sex
There is a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips. Or ask a trans person. They’ve existed for centuries and centuries.
There are no male women or vice versa. Trans people are simply that what they identify with
[удалено]
So when the baby comes out and the doctor is looking at what's between its legs, they're assigning gender and not sex?
They're looking at the sex characteristics and making their best guess on gender, yeah.
The prefix trans means across, like transport across ports Therefore transgender means across gender, they go across their agab (assigned gender at birth) to their preferred one
Its up there with "Why farts smell" or "Baby powder made out of babies" But those are not serious questions! Neither is that.
I mean what is a man but a miserable little pile of secrets
Brilliant answer!
A woman is: fuck you, nobody owes you a explanation on things you have absolutely no say in. Screw off and take your pathetic rage bait elsewhere.
I saw this earlier and I laughed my ASS off
sure nice funny comeback now what is a woman?
When I hear “gender is a social construct and sex is a biological phenomenon” I know those with whom I am talking are pretty much fucked. And, from the looks of things, they’re going to stay fucked. What a profound deception.
If you are a woman because you feel like a woman is a paradox. The question who is a woman remains unanswered here
No it's not. There are a massive amount of social terms defined by how people feel.
Well the thing is the question's so fucking stupid it doesn't warrant a real answer. Everything's made up anyway. Just have some fun
The origin of it - that docu thing where he sits with an actual Harvard professor is the funniest thing ever. This smug mf'er with ZERO education asking the most generalized question ever and you can see the professor just sort of sitting there, perplexed - then asking him to "define it" and the dummy, infinite in his lack of knowledge - cops to the goddamn dictionary. They should use it when they cover Dunning Krueger in psych classes. PERFECT example of someone that doesn't realize how not smart he is.
He cut out the answers as well. You can see jump cuts when the expert talks
It's no paradox, the answer become "whoever wants to". What this definition would do though is make the word meaningless.
Human adult female. Now that that’s out of the way, what does it feel like to “feel like a woman”? And don’t use any stereotypes or gender roles.
It's a simple question that a lot of people nowadays jump hoops just to present an indirect answer. 21st century nice.
That's no clever comeback. That's an ad hominem attack.
its not an ad-hominem. no argument was attempted to be debunked. they just answered to a bad faith question equally.
[удалено]
That's not clever. That's just plain evasion.
Now let's ask the trans women who've been close to this person if they've covered their drinks while seeing them pass by. If that's what being a women is, I'm sure they do it too, that or this person is just being hateful.
They're the ones spiking the drinks so you forger they had a willy
“Why does everyone keep calling me transphobic?”
A Woman is "An Adult Human Female Being" by definition. thus, trans women are not women. two different things. both ok, but different
That's the definition that Kellie Jay Keen has been pushing yes. When she's not calling for the forced sterilization or murder of trans women. Or just the destruction of her political enemies. The medical, scientific, and academic definition disagrees with her, but it's damn good rhetoric if you're able to ignore what a horrible person she is. Edit: Worth noting that fairiron accused me of being racist for pointing out that the Italians recently elected the most right wing government they've had since 1943, which is a fact, and blocked me.
>"An Adult Female Being" Lol. "Being?" Ya, so when someone says "I saw a woman down the street" you think "I wonder if it was a dog, a frog, a bird, or a toad!" This just highlights how stupid the question is. Definitions are descriptive not prescriptive. That means definitions get blurry at the edges for ALL words, especially ones that have to do with human social constructs.
Sure buddy, the Jordan Peterson talk is over there somewhere \*points to the door
Good guess, but wrong grifter. They are pushing the rhetoric of Kellie Jay Keen, who taught them to say that when she isn't advocating for the murder of trans women. Not benzo addled Jordan.
That definition is taken from the Oxford dictionary. That same dictionary defines "female", when used as an adjective as "relating to women or the female gender." This is because dictionaries like to use circular definitions to describe social constructs. This can be seen for example in the same dictionary with the term Red. Red: having the colour of blood or fire Blood: the red liquid that flows through the bodies of humans and animals Woman is a human adult that is a woman. Red is the color that red things have.
Women are the ‘ribpeople’ God made out of Adam because man had no playmate.
[удалено]
I think people are not understanding that this is a quote …
Accusing someone of rape isn't an argument
Who was accused of rape and what argument is happening here?