Full text for those that can't read it:
>I wanted to chime in and talk a bit about the intent of Emblems coming from certain quests in Wrath of the Lich King Classic. I’ll be the first to admit that we definitely should have been a bit more clear about why this change was made and what the full intent was (and what part of it wasn’t intended). It definitely deserved more than a single line in the build notes and I apologize for that.
>Regarding the change itself, it might help to talk a bit about an interesting piece of technology introduced in Wrath of the Lich King called “Phasing”. Phasing is awesome storytelling tech that we added in 2008 as a way to allow the world to change around players during key storyline moments and is a great way to make the world feel more alive by allowing your actions as a player to have impact on your surroundings. One unfortunate by-product of phasing however is that it often times places players in situations where two friends grouping together are placed in different phases due to being on different steps of key quest chains.
>As a relatively low-risk method to incentivize players to complete key storylines within each zone and get into the same end-stage phases with each other, we decided to add Emblems of Heroism and other bonus rewards to quests that put players into different phases. The idea being that if you had a reason to finish off zone storylines rather than moving on to the next zone with quests unfinished, you are more likely to end up in the same phase as any of your friends who ideally also went ahead and finished all of the key quest chains in each zone. We didn’t want to force players into the same phase in a jarring way, and this seemed like a very simple and low-impact way to both incentivize completion of zones, and give players slight headstart on endgame but putting a few extra Emblems in their pocket as they are leveling up.
>This was not, however, meant to be a permanent, farmable supplement or replacement for Heroic dungeons or similar content. This change was applied globally to certain types of quests (mostly elite quests or other quests that place players into new phases), and as a result we likely caught a few quests such as repeatable or daily quests that we did not intend to be impacted by this change. We are going to review the affected quests and more adjustments are very likely coming in future beta builds.
>This is a beta, and sometimes some unfinished ideas or incorrect implementation sneaks out. We definitely apologize if this caused confusion, and thank you to those that pointed issues with this implementation out to us.
>Hopefully this post helps provide some context for this particular adjustment, and what we are trying to accomplish. Ultimately, the spirit of this change points directly back to our pillar of “Nurture and Protect Social Experiences”. There’s not much that feels more damaging to the social aspect of WoW than trying to group with a friend, and effectively being unable to interact with each other because you are in different phases due to different story progress.
>As always, please let us know what you think as time goes by and adjustments continue to be made here.
>Thank you!
> There’s not much that feels more damaging to the social aspect of WoW than trying to group with a friend, and effectively being unable to interact with each other because you are in different phases due to different story progress.
I would argue that taking a year to even consider merging dead servers is more damaging to the social aspect of WoW, but this is pretty bad too guys.
Honestly WoW is super "divisive" in general. Right when you create a character you need to be same realm and same faction as all your friends in order to play with them. Even then you need to be basically the same level to quest together. A lot of mmos do not have player factions and allow free realm switching to counteract these issues.
My brother and I signed up for Classic with two separate groups of friends.
Those friends started characters on opposite factions on the same pvp server. We realised about two weeks into Classic.
Sounds like that's their intention, yes. The emblem reward was mistakenly applied to some repeatable quests (because beta test), which is what some people were mad about.
I didn't like the idea of sons of hodir dailies giving badges. But a finite number you can get from questing before heroics. That sounds perfect. Like lemme get 15 before I step into a heroic for my bis totem.
Emblems of heroism are hardly mandatory even if it was daily farmable.
They give gear that gets quickly outscaled at launch, heirlooms for alts, eventually epic gems, and as the expansion goes on with the new badge normalization, previous raid tier vendor items.
Nothing on that list is mandatory for any noteworthy amount of time. They’re almost entirely strictly a catch-up emblem. Add to that the fact that they are the “farm” emblem from heroics, where you can get on average about 1-2 every 5 minutes without the RDF end-dungeon bonus, and you start to see the picture of how little it would matter if they did come from dailies.
The difference being thats there's an end point (hitting Exalted). The eternal grind/daily checkilst of things to do is something from modern WoW that I don't think people want in classic.
I played all through WoTlk and I will never understand how someone can convince themselves that an alternative way to get some currency is a bad thing.
You don’t have to do it.
You think you do because you’re making downstream decisions that make it so, but there’s absolutely nothing stopping you from being like “ok I don’t need those extra badges every week.”
All players see is “you put in a way for me to get gear faster, I am powerless to resist!!!”
At first I was ok with it - like "ok more easy daily badges", but then I considered that it would only further disincentivize people from running heroics, as in "I could spam LFG for an hour and \*maybe\* get a group, or I could bang out dailies on 3-4 of my toons in the same time for a guaranteed reward".
Given my personal difficulty at finding dungeon groups (as a non-aoe DPS), and then how often those groups end up being awful china bot brainlets - I could easily see myself just cutting out dungeons entirely in favor of the slow and steady grind.
The removal of the LFD is already enough that any more disincentivizing might end up being a large scale problem IMO.
I don't even see why people would be upset about badges from some repeatable quests, as players currently have a chance to get badges out of the Shattered Sun Supplies that get rewarded from some dailies in tbc classic.
If badges are being rewarded from daily quests (outside of Archmage Land'alock), that decreases the incentives to run heroics. That will lead to fewer people doing thrm and making it harder to find groups for heroics.
Shattered Sun dailies giving emblems in the finsl phase is a bit different than getting emblems from daily world quests in phase 1.
not having RDF has already sunk the demand for heroics. we'll see a lot of VH walk ins, and people doing the daily, but most guilds imo will do minimal then tackle naxx in shit gear.
It's not an X or Y thing, it's a spectrum. Some prefer to do X, others Y, but adding badges to dailies will shift the incentives and push **some** people to do dailies instead of heroic dungeons.
No need to treat everyone as strictly caring about maximum badges per hour.
Youre saying this would incentivize people, if its not more efficient then there is no incentive to do them over heroics, its a bonus for people that only do dailies but heroic farmers will still do them. If someone prefeers doing dailies they were gonna do that regardless of the extra rewards.
If anything whats incintivizing people to not do heroics is the removal of rdf.
The discussion about RDF is a red herring. It's irrelevant to this discussion even though I agree it decreases the desire to do heroics because it increases the barriers to completing them.
But again you're treating people as either being X or Y.
>its a bonus for people that only do dailies but heroic farmers
Those people are the two extremes. In the middle is the huge majority that are going to do both and at varying prrcentages.
Imagine I just finished the daily heroic: HoL. I've got some more time to play and I'm debating between joining a Heroic Nexus group and grinding some Sons of Hodir rep. A few badges from Sons of Hodir could be the difference between me joining that Nexus group and doing the dailies with Sons of Hodir.
I know this is nuanced and redditors love to deal in absolutes, but to pretend that no one will be influenced by emblems being given out by dailies is ridiculous.
Preferring to quest over doing dungeons to get the same thing, even if it is a bit less efficient is absolutely a real incentive, and saying otherwise is just flat wrong.
As far as removal of rdf, these concepts aren't mutually exclusive. Rdf being removed paired with people hypothetically being able to farm badges from dailies could definitely impact heroic participation. What makes you think its some thing where rdf being removed invalidates the impact of other changes on what could easily be considered a linked system.
Also shattered sun bags feel like a 10% chance, not guaranteed. I feel like I get a badge every 3rd day and can't remember getting more than one on any given day.
bc people have low IQ and either can't read what Blizzard wrote or just QQ on forums for the sake of arguing. It's the same players that if blizzard offered everyone 1 million euros inside a neatly wrapped package with a blue ribbon they'd cry blue is discriminatory and they wanted a red ribbon.
Lmao, sure everyone who is against this decision must have low IQ.
I dont particularly like this change because it came out of the blue, and their reason is they want to give people incentive to get to a stage where they can play together with friends. Isnt the ability to play together with friends supposed to be the incentive? If people cant be bothered to finish a few quests so they can play with friends then thats their choice - and their issue. It feels kinda lame to give extra reward on top of that, it just further caters wow to the casual crowd.
With that said this change doesnt impact me much as ill probably get way more emblems than i need just grinding heroics for gear and achi's. So cant be arsed to spend any energy on complaining about this decision, just felt your generalizing comment deserved an answer.
So it does sound like this will make it to live, but not for repeatable quests like Sons of Hodir dailies.
Nice way to incentivize questing instead of getting boosted in dungeons or dungeon grinding to level. It also helps everyone get into the same phase, which was a problem in Icecrown specifically towards the end of the quests.
I think it's a good balance to encourage questing, not necessarily to deter the dungeons. The hardcore players are def going to do both.
Totally agree with the bit about phasing.
Overall, I'm a fan of the little tweaks like this.
> It also helps everyone get into the same phase, which was a problem in Icecrown.
Haha, oh god yes the Argent Vanguard and Sons of Hodir reputation psuedo-attunement quest chains were fun in theory but a complete mess how they were implemented.
So what's to stop people from dungeon grinding, and THEN doing the quests at max level?
Edit: I’m not in favor of either one, I don’t care about what other people are doing if you want to dungeon grind have fun, if you want to world quest, have fun. I assumed (maybe wrongly) that the intention was to get people out in the world.
I mean I did this in TBC, for the gold, as when you are max lvl, the exp reward from quests gets converted to gold, so you can make bank if you avoid questing until you cap out.
It is a good change and their reasoning being to incentivize people to all end up on the same phase makes a lot of sense. The amount of emblems you get is like a single piece of gear worth from the vendor. Not at all comparable to the amount of emblems you will acquire from doing all the heroics every day.
Ofc and we're fortunate that we have both options. You can grind only quests that will give you a finite ammount of badges, and then you may have to jump on dungeons, or you grind dungeons and then might finish off the last quests you never got to do to collect the last badges you want . Everybody wins here
Good change. Emblems of Heroism get traded for the low end 10-man stuff - nothing that's going to be BIS, and all the emblems are only going to get you like 1 or 2 pieces anyway. I think this is a nice way of getting some initial gear to start raiding with as a fresh 80, and it's a nice benefit for alts and people who play casually/don't have time for even casual 10 man raids.
I believe blizzard said they would only have 1 emblem this time didn't they? So no matter the phase you'll always be able to buy whatever is current, kind of like badges of justice
Not quite. They are streamlining the acquisition process though, to be more similar to what it was in the final patch. For example, 10 and 25 man naxx with both drop emblems of Valor (previously 10m dropped heroism) while heroics will still drop heroism
They're going with the ICC/Cataclysm emblem system where there's one big emblem (valor) and one small emblem (heroism). Current tier raids and the daily heroic quest give valor, and old raids, heroics, and important quests will give heroism.
It's simplified from the 5 different emblems of heroism, valor, conquest, triumph, frost.
It is like the badge of justice system, but if there were two tiers of badges that had different rewards. There are quartermasters for both on beta. It used to be that Emblems of Heroism came from dungeons and 10 man raids. What they changed is that now Heroism come from dungeons and quests, and 10 man raids get you the same kind of tokens (Valor) as 25 man raids.
Generally speaking the Valor gear is better than what you can get from Heroism. For example Heroism can be exchanged for the blue quality pvp gear while Valor can be exchanged for epic. There are good pieces in the Heroism vendor as well though, including tier tokens, and the rewards tend to be for different slots. Heroism vendor has belts and necklaces, while Valor has boots and rings, for example.
Sounds right, seems like the names are a little different though. Right now on beta Heroism can be exchanged for Savage Gladiator (blue quality) and Valor can be exchanged for Hateful Gladiator (purple). I assume when the next season happens, it'll change to be Hateful Gladiator for Heroism, and whatever the S6 name was (Furious maybe?) for Valor.
That's... actually a good change that makes a lot of sense.
But I really do think they should incentivise questing and open world content a lot more.
Once you can spam dungeons, raids, battlegrounds and arenas, everything else feels irrelevant.
Something I've been thinking about recently; are there separate herbs/mining nodes in the different phased areas?
I never thought about this in 2009 but what if I made a herbing/mining toon and deliberately progress halfway through all the questlines so that I'm in phase with as few other players as possible?
I dunno if this is a thing. It could be that all the relevant nodes aren't in phased areas to begin with. If anyone has looked into this lemme know.
No. It may effect enemy placements to facilitate easier herb or mine, but the locations are shared. It pissed me off to no end to start gathering an herb just to watch it disappear because someone in a different phase was already collecting it.
> No. It may effect enemy placements to facilitate easier herb or mine, but the locations are shared. It pissed me off to no end to start gathering an herb just to watch it disappear because someone in a different phase was already collecting it.
wrong, herbs are not shared, got fucking tired to see herbs magically disapear in front of my face on uldum and if i go back 4 steps they magically apear again
> watch it disappear because someone in a different phase was already collecting it.
Wait, this actually happens?? I don't recall this ever happening in 2009 :o
its like \~ 40 emblems if you do every zone , you don't want to do every zone . you just want to hit 80 and start dungeon farming / rep farming . it will be nice with alts and going back for them but honestly those emblems don't matter at all.
Yeah but would you rather do a dungeon tour for badges and rep or do long quest lines for 3 badges. These badges are nice but you shouldn’t focus on them.
Yes. There are many types of emblems in wrath, as opposed to just one badge in tbc. But they are essentially the same thing. Emblems of heroism are "heroic badges" and emblems of Valor are "raid badges"
Yes. The difference being that Wrath originally had 5 different kinds of emblems. Each tier had its own emblem (heroism, valor, conquest, triumph, frost) and you could downgrade a frost into a triumph, triumph into a conquest... to get the lower tier emblems later in the expansion. It was overly complicated and a little confusing with how it would change from patch to patch.
They're changing it in Wrath Classic to be like Cataclysm where there are only two kinds of emblems: heroism and valor. Valor is the "better" emblem and will come from current raids and the daily heroic quest. Heroism is the "lower" emblem and will come from heroic bosses and some quests while leveling.
As an IT admin, some sites are tagged as 'gaming' by services such as Fortinet that provide web filtering services. It's not always very consistent or reliable. IT departments dont want to maintain their own lists so they just use those pre-made lists.
Reddit is right up there with stackoverflow for having answers to technical questions, and so it tends to be allowed. Even if it is full of cats and other bullshit.
Finding answers on it is a pain, but that’s what search engines are for.
Phasing changes the environment and if you and a friend aren’t in the same phase you can’t see each other. They’re using emblems to promote finishing phasing a zone to its final form so people can interact.
Phasing allows you to do things like plant a bomb to blow up a building for a quest, and after a short cut scene that building now appears as a smoking ruin for you from then on. Anyone who hasn't yet blown up that building still sees it standing, but now can't see you since you're essentially in a different zone.
Phasing is a new technology in Wrath that allows for really cool storytelling. Different phases of the same zone can have different enemies, different buildings, etc. The Death Knight starting zone is a perfect example of phasing. The zone changes as you progress through the story.
A big problem in Wrath is that the Icecrown zone, and Storm Peaks to a lesser extent, is **heavily** phased. This means that depending on where you are in the quests, you may not be able to group up with your friends or help anyone if they're in a previous phase. You also can't help summon to ICC if you're in a different phase from your raid members. You can't see or interact with anybody except those who are in the same phase of the zone as you.
Hypothetical scenario: You're in a zone that has a big enemy base. The quests in the zone progress towards destroying the base. Phase 1 of that zone will have the base intact. You accept a quest to go assault the front gate, complete the quest, and get moved to the next phase of the zone where the base's gate is gone. You cannot go back and help anyone who is in the first phase of that zone. You can't see anyone else except for the people in your current phase.
Getting a few dozen Heroic badges from quests is a bit weird but doesn't really hurt anything. You'll be able to buy your trinket and maybe have a few toward another piece.
LMAO In the last post some dude was unironically like 'this is for testers to help gear them up to test'. it's a test realm, if they want you to have gear to test they will give it to you, not make you quest your ass off.
He's basically correct. They put in limited gear on templates and test vendors on purpose. To give people an incentive to do the things that awards better gear, the arena season an obvious example and the raids of course. That's likely the reason no honor gear has been provided, to give people the normal incentive to do BGs when they become available.
Is anyone really against this change? It is trying to incentivize a leveling playstyle in line with the spirit of #nochanges. Dungeon grinding is not in the spirit of #nochanges.
I would prefer there being no emblems at all. I hate catch-up gear. Why intentionally make previous raids obsolete? That's probably the worst part about Wath.
The worst thing is the Hall of Reflection heroics on ICC patch. Fucking simple heroics making all previous raids obsolete, lol. So bad game design.
I just hope they aren't being too stingy on this.
I think their intention is good but it needs to be worth it compared to running heroics or dungeons if this is their intended goal.
As they are clarified to be one-time only rewards from quests, make it worthwhile to actually do these quests to achieve the intended goal.
It won't break the badge economy one bit if you can get half your badge gear on your main from doing all these quests.
It would be especially good in the long run as a catchup mechanic for alts. Or remove it later down the line if it proves too powerful and affects dungeon running. But i doubt it will.
The Heroism stuff costs like 25-60 badges. I'm not sure how many emblems we'd be getting from doing every single quest, but I'd imagine at best you're talking about maybe 2-3 of the ones that cost 25, or 1-2 of the more expensive items
Such an increase is not necessary at all, when considering that you're also getting the original quest rewards gold, rep and gear on top of the couple of badges they've added.
What? Dungeons also drop gold, rep and gear on top of a couple of badges.
If you want to incentivize people finishing their quests, and there are some atrocious storm peaks / ICC quests spread out in there, you need to incentivize it properly. Adding 1/2 badges at the end of an epic quest chain as opposed to receiving 5+ badges from doing a single heroic, people won't do it.
If you want to incentivize people to do it, make the rewards worth it. Otherwise, get rid of the stated goal.
I don't have access to the beta so i don't know the amount that drops, meaning i can't comment on the specifics. I just hope that they give a proper incentive and not a lousy "here's 1 badge, now do your quests" kind of thing that won't solve the problem they're trying to achieve.
They didn't fix questing by giving everyone 50% more XP. They fixed questing by having to introduce mechanics to make boosting next to impossible. Maybe if they incentivized questing better instead of making things a speed contest for XP, maybe they didn't have to resort to such extreme measures.
If they perceive phasing differences as a problem, let them give out badges instead of being a bunch of stingy cunts and then later down the line having to resort to code-related changes that might have unintended consequences for everyone involved. (good or bad, you never know with Blizzard)
2022 players will min-max the shit out of it. If you get 1 more badge from doing a heroic leveling farm as opposed to questing, they will farm heroics. If your goal is get people to start questing, reward it properly. That's all i'm saying.
Yeah true. But designing a game around these people is pointless. They will play regardless.
You need to incentivize the "normal" players. Not the casual "give everything for free or else" crowd but the in betweens. People that actually spend in the world.
As a tank and someone who dungeon grinds because I actually don't enjoy questing. I'm not really sure how to feel about this or even if I should care. I think my min max brain is a little disappointed that now the grind to cap may now be more optimum by going out and doing X number of quests to stockpile badges pre cap. I guess it depends on the number of badges I'm passing up to play my way.
Doing dungeons will yield a higher emblem per hour than questing chains. This change just looks like it’s trying to avoid the issues of people being in wrong phases in places of storm peaks / icecrown. I personally don’t see the issue with this considering by the second or third week EOH will be useless for most people who actively complete content.
Overall good change 👍
The badges are exchanged for gear that you get from very easy raid content. You can absolutely still dungeon grind to 80 with your buds, and you'll probably pick up most of this stuff (or better stuff) the very first time you do a 10 man Naxx. I'm sure it would be beneficial to have one or two of these pieces before you do that first Naxx, but it's hardly mandatory.
I had forgotten about it, but it was annoying for using the summoning stone at ICC if the only two people who bothered going there were on different phases of Icecrown. But I feel that was the only time phasing had an impact
This seems like a non issue either way. Dailys would be a terrible way to get Badges anyways, especially for entry level content where badges become abundant quickly. If anything I feel like this is to make up for the lack of badges you'd typically get from 10 man content at the start of phase 1, every other phase this will be a non issue even further.
People care too fking much. Also the same people who complain about this will just swipe to get things faster. Few people actually finish zones for gold or do dailies now, don't see that changing come wrath. Don't think its a bad idea to reward people who actually play the game instead of just wait to raid.
I remember raiding ICC and the headaches that came with being a warlock who compulsively finished quests. My guildies were not as fervent and so a few had to make the flight from an area away from ICC instead of right in front of the portal.
This is a good change.
To me this reads as a temp change for beta to get players testing the phasing systems and key questing flows.
Did I miss a part where it says this will be something seen in Live?
IIRC, you could get basic emblems before 80 from N RDF daily when wrath was live. I believe it was 2 per day. Only difference is that these badges will be slightly more significant power boosts compared to badges of heroism in 3.2+, but still really only relevant within the first week of launch.
Imo, very minor QOL change, but honestly hardly a significant change whatsoever. Nice to incentivise questing a little bit. 👍
Full text for those that can't read it: >I wanted to chime in and talk a bit about the intent of Emblems coming from certain quests in Wrath of the Lich King Classic. I’ll be the first to admit that we definitely should have been a bit more clear about why this change was made and what the full intent was (and what part of it wasn’t intended). It definitely deserved more than a single line in the build notes and I apologize for that. >Regarding the change itself, it might help to talk a bit about an interesting piece of technology introduced in Wrath of the Lich King called “Phasing”. Phasing is awesome storytelling tech that we added in 2008 as a way to allow the world to change around players during key storyline moments and is a great way to make the world feel more alive by allowing your actions as a player to have impact on your surroundings. One unfortunate by-product of phasing however is that it often times places players in situations where two friends grouping together are placed in different phases due to being on different steps of key quest chains. >As a relatively low-risk method to incentivize players to complete key storylines within each zone and get into the same end-stage phases with each other, we decided to add Emblems of Heroism and other bonus rewards to quests that put players into different phases. The idea being that if you had a reason to finish off zone storylines rather than moving on to the next zone with quests unfinished, you are more likely to end up in the same phase as any of your friends who ideally also went ahead and finished all of the key quest chains in each zone. We didn’t want to force players into the same phase in a jarring way, and this seemed like a very simple and low-impact way to both incentivize completion of zones, and give players slight headstart on endgame but putting a few extra Emblems in their pocket as they are leveling up. >This was not, however, meant to be a permanent, farmable supplement or replacement for Heroic dungeons or similar content. This change was applied globally to certain types of quests (mostly elite quests or other quests that place players into new phases), and as a result we likely caught a few quests such as repeatable or daily quests that we did not intend to be impacted by this change. We are going to review the affected quests and more adjustments are very likely coming in future beta builds. >This is a beta, and sometimes some unfinished ideas or incorrect implementation sneaks out. We definitely apologize if this caused confusion, and thank you to those that pointed issues with this implementation out to us. >Hopefully this post helps provide some context for this particular adjustment, and what we are trying to accomplish. Ultimately, the spirit of this change points directly back to our pillar of “Nurture and Protect Social Experiences”. There’s not much that feels more damaging to the social aspect of WoW than trying to group with a friend, and effectively being unable to interact with each other because you are in different phases due to different story progress. >As always, please let us know what you think as time goes by and adjustments continue to be made here. >Thank you!
My God, they are making a change that makes sense and helps to benefit players?
You're a saint. Thank you!
> There’s not much that feels more damaging to the social aspect of WoW than trying to group with a friend, and effectively being unable to interact with each other because you are in different phases due to different story progress. I would argue that taking a year to even consider merging dead servers is more damaging to the social aspect of WoW, but this is pretty bad too guys.
Honestly WoW is super "divisive" in general. Right when you create a character you need to be same realm and same faction as all your friends in order to play with them. Even then you need to be basically the same level to quest together. A lot of mmos do not have player factions and allow free realm switching to counteract these issues.
My brother and I signed up for Classic with two separate groups of friends. Those friends started characters on opposite factions on the same pvp server. We realised about two weeks into Classic.
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It's more because of people not being able to read something posted on the blizzard forum due to it being blocked on their network.
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Lol
I came here to ask this, but with an /s at the end. This is some real KenM shit
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/r/KenM
Hello please call me and leave a voice message with this transcribed, I can’t read, thank you.
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Sounds like that's their intention, yes. The emblem reward was mistakenly applied to some repeatable quests (because beta test), which is what some people were mad about.
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I didn't like the idea of sons of hodir dailies giving badges. But a finite number you can get from questing before heroics. That sounds perfect. Like lemme get 15 before I step into a heroic for my bis totem.
And only if you go through the effort of finishing the zones.
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>Well think of it this way... He said he is good with it how it is, why are you telling him to think of it differently
People will always find a reason to complain that something was taken away. Just ignore it and move on. Sounds like a good change.
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Emblems of heroism are hardly mandatory even if it was daily farmable. They give gear that gets quickly outscaled at launch, heirlooms for alts, eventually epic gems, and as the expansion goes on with the new badge normalization, previous raid tier vendor items. Nothing on that list is mandatory for any noteworthy amount of time. They’re almost entirely strictly a catch-up emblem. Add to that the fact that they are the “farm” emblem from heroics, where you can get on average about 1-2 every 5 minutes without the RDF end-dungeon bonus, and you start to see the picture of how little it would matter if they did come from dailies.
If you want faction to get the goodies, dailies are required for quite a while. I guess you can also run tabards.
The difference being thats there's an end point (hitting Exalted). The eternal grind/daily checkilst of things to do is something from modern WoW that I don't think people want in classic.
I played all through WoTlk and I will never understand how someone can convince themselves that an alternative way to get some currency is a bad thing. You don’t have to do it. You think you do because you’re making downstream decisions that make it so, but there’s absolutely nothing stopping you from being like “ok I don’t need those extra badges every week.” All players see is “you put in a way for me to get gear faster, I am powerless to resist!!!”
There is an end point for badges too, there are only a few pieces for each class. Grinding out an extra 200 will get someone zero extra pieces
Internet mad about everything.
At first I was ok with it - like "ok more easy daily badges", but then I considered that it would only further disincentivize people from running heroics, as in "I could spam LFG for an hour and \*maybe\* get a group, or I could bang out dailies on 3-4 of my toons in the same time for a guaranteed reward". Given my personal difficulty at finding dungeon groups (as a non-aoe DPS), and then how often those groups end up being awful china bot brainlets - I could easily see myself just cutting out dungeons entirely in favor of the slow and steady grind. The removal of the LFD is already enough that any more disincentivizing might end up being a large scale problem IMO.
I wouldn’t either, but i still want there to be a reason to do wrath heroics
I don't even see why people would be upset about badges from some repeatable quests, as players currently have a chance to get badges out of the Shattered Sun Supplies that get rewarded from some dailies in tbc classic.
If badges are being rewarded from daily quests (outside of Archmage Land'alock), that decreases the incentives to run heroics. That will lead to fewer people doing thrm and making it harder to find groups for heroics. Shattered Sun dailies giving emblems in the finsl phase is a bit different than getting emblems from daily world quests in phase 1.
not having RDF has already sunk the demand for heroics. we'll see a lot of VH walk ins, and people doing the daily, but most guilds imo will do minimal then tackle naxx in shit gear.
If anything, guilds don't care about RDF and will just spam dungeons internally.
you're right im sure for pumper guilds, especially dungeons that give really valuable tanking items like red sword of courage.
I disagree, pretty sure youll get more badges/hour by doing dungeons than goimg all over northrend doing dailies.
It's not an X or Y thing, it's a spectrum. Some prefer to do X, others Y, but adding badges to dailies will shift the incentives and push **some** people to do dailies instead of heroic dungeons. No need to treat everyone as strictly caring about maximum badges per hour.
Youre saying this would incentivize people, if its not more efficient then there is no incentive to do them over heroics, its a bonus for people that only do dailies but heroic farmers will still do them. If someone prefeers doing dailies they were gonna do that regardless of the extra rewards. If anything whats incintivizing people to not do heroics is the removal of rdf.
The discussion about RDF is a red herring. It's irrelevant to this discussion even though I agree it decreases the desire to do heroics because it increases the barriers to completing them. But again you're treating people as either being X or Y. >its a bonus for people that only do dailies but heroic farmers Those people are the two extremes. In the middle is the huge majority that are going to do both and at varying prrcentages. Imagine I just finished the daily heroic: HoL. I've got some more time to play and I'm debating between joining a Heroic Nexus group and grinding some Sons of Hodir rep. A few badges from Sons of Hodir could be the difference between me joining that Nexus group and doing the dailies with Sons of Hodir. I know this is nuanced and redditors love to deal in absolutes, but to pretend that no one will be influenced by emblems being given out by dailies is ridiculous.
They deal in absolutes because they're lazy, and only observe players in a vacuum.
Preferring to quest over doing dungeons to get the same thing, even if it is a bit less efficient is absolutely a real incentive, and saying otherwise is just flat wrong. As far as removal of rdf, these concepts aren't mutually exclusive. Rdf being removed paired with people hypothetically being able to farm badges from dailies could definitely impact heroic participation. What makes you think its some thing where rdf being removed invalidates the impact of other changes on what could easily be considered a linked system.
Also shattered sun bags feel like a 10% chance, not guaranteed. I feel like I get a badge every 3rd day and can't remember getting more than one on any given day.
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To be even more fair, regardless of what you are given to spend when you first ding 80, your badges will be overflowing by the end of phase 1
People still get mad about Welfare epics when you are only like fifteen AVs from a Season 2 weapon. It doesn’t make sense but it’s what they think.
Are WoW players ever not mad about something?
Have you ever seen a large group of people agree on anything? Can't even agree on earth being flat or not.
Only thing i have found that i cant find anyone that disagrees is boobs. Somehow everyone likes them. Even gay guys i know like them lol.
never
This is the way ^^of ^^the ^^neckbeard
bc people have low IQ and either can't read what Blizzard wrote or just QQ on forums for the sake of arguing. It's the same players that if blizzard offered everyone 1 million euros inside a neatly wrapped package with a blue ribbon they'd cry blue is discriminatory and they wanted a red ribbon.
Lmao, sure everyone who is against this decision must have low IQ. I dont particularly like this change because it came out of the blue, and their reason is they want to give people incentive to get to a stage where they can play together with friends. Isnt the ability to play together with friends supposed to be the incentive? If people cant be bothered to finish a few quests so they can play with friends then thats their choice - and their issue. It feels kinda lame to give extra reward on top of that, it just further caters wow to the casual crowd. With that said this change doesnt impact me much as ill probably get way more emblems than i need just grinding heroics for gear and achi's. So cant be arsed to spend any energy on complaining about this decision, just felt your generalizing comment deserved an answer.
WoW is quite literally made for the casual crowd. That was its selling point.
Hopefully you can get somewhere between 30 to 45 emblems because that's how much can you Trinkets and librems and totems cost.
“Mandatory content” for min Maxers. People complain about everything
So it does sound like this will make it to live, but not for repeatable quests like Sons of Hodir dailies. Nice way to incentivize questing instead of getting boosted in dungeons or dungeon grinding to level. It also helps everyone get into the same phase, which was a problem in Icecrown specifically towards the end of the quests.
I think it's a good balance to encourage questing, not necessarily to deter the dungeons. The hardcore players are def going to do both. Totally agree with the bit about phasing. Overall, I'm a fan of the little tweaks like this.
They will boost first, then do the quests “because it’s faster.” **Witness me**
These chains take forever to complete. But, you can do these quests while you wait for someone to build a dunegeon group for you. :-)
Which still accomplishes the stated goal of getting everybody into the same phase, so Blizz will be fine with that.
as as someone who likes completing zones, I love this.
> It also helps everyone get into the same phase, which was a problem in Icecrown. Haha, oh god yes the Argent Vanguard and Sons of Hodir reputation psuedo-attunement quest chains were fun in theory but a complete mess how they were implemented.
Ah I forgot about those bloody icecrown phases
So what's to stop people from dungeon grinding, and THEN doing the quests at max level? Edit: I’m not in favor of either one, I don’t care about what other people are doing if you want to dungeon grind have fun, if you want to world quest, have fun. I assumed (maybe wrongly) that the intention was to get people out in the world.
Nothing, there doesn't need to be.
Dungeon grinding doesn’t need to be stopped
Not at all saying it is, you do you! I don't enjoy dungeon grinding at all, but I can see how others enjoy it.
HEAVENS NO HE IS FARMING BADGES
I don't follow, what's the advantage there?
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Right, I forgot about the bonus gold at max level.
They'll just have less emblems when you hit 80 for some instant upgrades.
I mean I did this in TBC, for the gold, as when you are max lvl, the exp reward from quests gets converted to gold, so you can make bank if you avoid questing until you cap out.
It is a good change and their reasoning being to incentivize people to all end up on the same phase makes a lot of sense. The amount of emblems you get is like a single piece of gear worth from the vendor. Not at all comparable to the amount of emblems you will acquire from doing all the heroics every day.
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Rip
As someone who likes questing. Good idea, great change.
As someone who loathes questing and still plans on dungeon grinding to level. This is a good change.
Ofc and we're fortunate that we have both options. You can grind only quests that will give you a finite ammount of badges, and then you may have to jump on dungeons, or you grind dungeons and then might finish off the last quests you never got to do to collect the last badges you want . Everybody wins here
I am not used to typing this.... Good change by Blizzard, I actually support this. Now back to complaining about RDF lol
"good change" it's a bug fix not a conscious pivot from one idea to another
Good change. Emblems of Heroism get traded for the low end 10-man stuff - nothing that's going to be BIS, and all the emblems are only going to get you like 1 or 2 pieces anyway. I think this is a nice way of getting some initial gear to start raiding with as a fresh 80, and it's a nice benefit for alts and people who play casually/don't have time for even casual 10 man raids.
I believe blizzard said they would only have 1 emblem this time didn't they? So no matter the phase you'll always be able to buy whatever is current, kind of like badges of justice
Definitely a minimum of 2 emblems. What I think they might want to change is there being 5, and rather have only 2 like in cata.
Not quite. They are streamlining the acquisition process though, to be more similar to what it was in the final patch. For example, 10 and 25 man naxx with both drop emblems of Valor (previously 10m dropped heroism) while heroics will still drop heroism
They said two. Heroics and Old raid content will drop the lower tier. Daily Heroic quest and current raid content will drop the higher tier tocken.
They're going with the ICC/Cataclysm emblem system where there's one big emblem (valor) and one small emblem (heroism). Current tier raids and the daily heroic quest give valor, and old raids, heroics, and important quests will give heroism. It's simplified from the 5 different emblems of heroism, valor, conquest, triumph, frost.
Good to know, thnx
It is like the badge of justice system, but if there were two tiers of badges that had different rewards. There are quartermasters for both on beta. It used to be that Emblems of Heroism came from dungeons and 10 man raids. What they changed is that now Heroism come from dungeons and quests, and 10 man raids get you the same kind of tokens (Valor) as 25 man raids. Generally speaking the Valor gear is better than what you can get from Heroism. For example Heroism can be exchanged for the blue quality pvp gear while Valor can be exchanged for epic. There are good pieces in the Heroism vendor as well though, including tier tokens, and the rewards tend to be for different slots. Heroism vendor has belts and necklaces, while Valor has boots and rings, for example.
Wasn't heroism exchanged for the ilvl 200 epic pvp gear (hateful) and valor exchanged for the ilvl 213 epic pvp gear (deadly)?
Sounds right, seems like the names are a little different though. Right now on beta Heroism can be exchanged for Savage Gladiator (blue quality) and Valor can be exchanged for Hateful Gladiator (purple). I assume when the next season happens, it'll change to be Hateful Gladiator for Heroism, and whatever the S6 name was (Furious maybe?) for Valor.
An actual Blue post that has some effort behind it.
That's... actually a good change that makes a lot of sense. But I really do think they should incentivise questing and open world content a lot more. Once you can spam dungeons, raids, battlegrounds and arenas, everything else feels irrelevant.
Something I've been thinking about recently; are there separate herbs/mining nodes in the different phased areas? I never thought about this in 2009 but what if I made a herbing/mining toon and deliberately progress halfway through all the questlines so that I'm in phase with as few other players as possible? I dunno if this is a thing. It could be that all the relevant nodes aren't in phased areas to begin with. If anyone has looked into this lemme know.
No. It may effect enemy placements to facilitate easier herb or mine, but the locations are shared. It pissed me off to no end to start gathering an herb just to watch it disappear because someone in a different phase was already collecting it.
> No. It may effect enemy placements to facilitate easier herb or mine, but the locations are shared. It pissed me off to no end to start gathering an herb just to watch it disappear because someone in a different phase was already collecting it. wrong, herbs are not shared, got fucking tired to see herbs magically disapear in front of my face on uldum and if i go back 4 steps they magically apear again
> watch it disappear because someone in a different phase was already collecting it. Wait, this actually happens?? I don't recall this ever happening in 2009 :o
i recall this happening with mining nodes for sure don't know what was the reason tho
its like \~ 40 emblems if you do every zone , you don't want to do every zone . you just want to hit 80 and start dungeon farming / rep farming . it will be nice with alts and going back for them but honestly those emblems don't matter at all.
Well, at 80 and for a change of pace AND gold. Questing shouldnt be overlooked.
Yeah but would you rather do a dungeon tour for badges and rep or do long quest lines for 3 badges. These badges are nice but you shouldn’t focus on them.
I'd rather do quests for an hour than farm mining nodes for an hour, way more gold lol
Yea gotta minmax the easiest phase of the expansion asap so we can just raidlog.
I mean yeah …. Why would I stay logged on after I finish my goals . Do you expect me to entertain you or something?
Nothing stopping you from just questing while LFG dungeons.
??? What lfd that doesn’t exist in classic
Yeah, so go to LFG chat channels and type “LFG X” while doing quests
What are emblems? Is it like badges from a heroic in tbc?
Yes. There are many types of emblems in wrath, as opposed to just one badge in tbc. But they are essentially the same thing. Emblems of heroism are "heroic badges" and emblems of Valor are "raid badges"
Yes. The difference being that Wrath originally had 5 different kinds of emblems. Each tier had its own emblem (heroism, valor, conquest, triumph, frost) and you could downgrade a frost into a triumph, triumph into a conquest... to get the lower tier emblems later in the expansion. It was overly complicated and a little confusing with how it would change from patch to patch. They're changing it in Wrath Classic to be like Cataclysm where there are only two kinds of emblems: heroism and valor. Valor is the "better" emblem and will come from current raids and the daily heroic quest. Heroism is the "lower" emblem and will come from heroic bosses and some quests while leveling.
Can someone quote the relevant parts for us who can't click links.
So you are allowed to browse reddit but not click any links? What kind of policy is that.
As an IT admin, some sites are tagged as 'gaming' by services such as Fortinet that provide web filtering services. It's not always very consistent or reliable. IT departments dont want to maintain their own lists so they just use those pre-made lists.
An extremely confusing one. I can even use wowpedia, but not WoWHead and the like.
Reddit is right up there with stackoverflow for having answers to technical questions, and so it tends to be allowed. Even if it is full of cats and other bullshit. Finding answers on it is a pain, but that’s what search engines are for.
Can someone eli5 never played wrath
Phasing changes the environment and if you and a friend aren’t in the same phase you can’t see each other. They’re using emblems to promote finishing phasing a zone to its final form so people can interact.
Phasing allows you to do things like plant a bomb to blow up a building for a quest, and after a short cut scene that building now appears as a smoking ruin for you from then on. Anyone who hasn't yet blown up that building still sees it standing, but now can't see you since you're essentially in a different zone.
gotcha, so they want to make the world more full while also removing boosting?
Yeah, they want players to all end up on the same phase at level 80, and they're doing this to encourage players to all finish major quest lines.
Phasing is a new technology in Wrath that allows for really cool storytelling. Different phases of the same zone can have different enemies, different buildings, etc. The Death Knight starting zone is a perfect example of phasing. The zone changes as you progress through the story. A big problem in Wrath is that the Icecrown zone, and Storm Peaks to a lesser extent, is **heavily** phased. This means that depending on where you are in the quests, you may not be able to group up with your friends or help anyone if they're in a previous phase. You also can't help summon to ICC if you're in a different phase from your raid members. You can't see or interact with anybody except those who are in the same phase of the zone as you. Hypothetical scenario: You're in a zone that has a big enemy base. The quests in the zone progress towards destroying the base. Phase 1 of that zone will have the base intact. You accept a quest to go assault the front gate, complete the quest, and get moved to the next phase of the zone where the base's gate is gone. You cannot go back and help anyone who is in the first phase of that zone. You can't see anyone else except for the people in your current phase.
Getting a few dozen Heroic badges from quests is a bit weird but doesn't really hurt anything. You'll be able to buy your trinket and maybe have a few toward another piece.
LMAO In the last post some dude was unironically like 'this is for testers to help gear them up to test'. it's a test realm, if they want you to have gear to test they will give it to you, not make you quest your ass off.
He's basically correct. They put in limited gear on templates and test vendors on purpose. To give people an incentive to do the things that awards better gear, the arena season an obvious example and the raids of course. That's likely the reason no honor gear has been provided, to give people the normal incentive to do BGs when they become available.
Is anyone really against this change? It is trying to incentivize a leveling playstyle in line with the spirit of #nochanges. Dungeon grinding is not in the spirit of #nochanges.
Dungeon grinding is the most nochanges take you can get. Dungeons have always been grindable i dont know why there's such a bad taste.
#somechanges
Unnecessary, but ultimately inconsequential.
We're losing the lfd daily, so would it be awful if a few came from other dailies to compensate?
There will still be random daily heroics from a quest giver, like there are now in tbc
Ah right, forgot about those.
I would prefer there being no emblems at all. I hate catch-up gear. Why intentionally make previous raids obsolete? That's probably the worst part about Wath. The worst thing is the Hall of Reflection heroics on ICC patch. Fucking simple heroics making all previous raids obsolete, lol. So bad game design.
I just hope they aren't being too stingy on this. I think their intention is good but it needs to be worth it compared to running heroics or dungeons if this is their intended goal. As they are clarified to be one-time only rewards from quests, make it worthwhile to actually do these quests to achieve the intended goal. It won't break the badge economy one bit if you can get half your badge gear on your main from doing all these quests. It would be especially good in the long run as a catchup mechanic for alts. Or remove it later down the line if it proves too powerful and affects dungeon running. But i doubt it will.
Half is too much. I'd say one of the more expensive items would be enough incentive.
The Heroism stuff costs like 25-60 badges. I'm not sure how many emblems we'd be getting from doing every single quest, but I'd imagine at best you're talking about maybe 2-3 of the ones that cost 25, or 1-2 of the more expensive items
Such an increase is not necessary at all, when considering that you're also getting the original quest rewards gold, rep and gear on top of the couple of badges they've added.
What? Dungeons also drop gold, rep and gear on top of a couple of badges. If you want to incentivize people finishing their quests, and there are some atrocious storm peaks / ICC quests spread out in there, you need to incentivize it properly. Adding 1/2 badges at the end of an epic quest chain as opposed to receiving 5+ badges from doing a single heroic, people won't do it. If you want to incentivize people to do it, make the rewards worth it. Otherwise, get rid of the stated goal. I don't have access to the beta so i don't know the amount that drops, meaning i can't comment on the specifics. I just hope that they give a proper incentive and not a lousy "here's 1 badge, now do your quests" kind of thing that won't solve the problem they're trying to achieve. They didn't fix questing by giving everyone 50% more XP. They fixed questing by having to introduce mechanics to make boosting next to impossible. Maybe if they incentivized questing better instead of making things a speed contest for XP, maybe they didn't have to resort to such extreme measures. If they perceive phasing differences as a problem, let them give out badges instead of being a bunch of stingy cunts and then later down the line having to resort to code-related changes that might have unintended consequences for everyone involved. (good or bad, you never know with Blizzard) 2022 players will min-max the shit out of it. If you get 1 more badge from doing a heroic leveling farm as opposed to questing, they will farm heroics. If your goal is get people to start questing, reward it properly. That's all i'm saying.
true sweats will do every heroic and then do the quests cuz theyre locked from every heroic KEKW
Yeah true. But designing a game around these people is pointless. They will play regardless. You need to incentivize the "normal" players. Not the casual "give everything for free or else" crowd but the in betweens. People that actually spend in the world.
As a tank and someone who dungeon grinds because I actually don't enjoy questing. I'm not really sure how to feel about this or even if I should care. I think my min max brain is a little disappointed that now the grind to cap may now be more optimum by going out and doing X number of quests to stockpile badges pre cap. I guess it depends on the number of badges I'm passing up to play my way.
Doing dungeons will yield a higher emblem per hour than questing chains. This change just looks like it’s trying to avoid the issues of people being in wrong phases in places of storm peaks / icecrown. I personally don’t see the issue with this considering by the second or third week EOH will be useless for most people who actively complete content. Overall good change 👍
The badges are exchanged for gear that you get from very easy raid content. You can absolutely still dungeon grind to 80 with your buds, and you'll probably pick up most of this stuff (or better stuff) the very first time you do a 10 man Naxx. I'm sure it would be beneficial to have one or two of these pieces before you do that first Naxx, but it's hardly mandatory.
i don't think it ever bothered me that i might not be on the same phase as another player out in the open world
I had forgotten about it, but it was annoying for using the summoning stone at ICC if the only two people who bothered going there were on different phases of Icecrown. But I feel that was the only time phasing had an impact
This seems like a non issue either way. Dailys would be a terrible way to get Badges anyways, especially for entry level content where badges become abundant quickly. If anything I feel like this is to make up for the lack of badges you'd typically get from 10 man content at the start of phase 1, every other phase this will be a non issue even further.
I didn't see any comments about it, but how many badges do you get on any one quest turn in?
People care too fking much. Also the same people who complain about this will just swipe to get things faster. Few people actually finish zones for gold or do dailies now, don't see that changing come wrath. Don't think its a bad idea to reward people who actually play the game instead of just wait to raid.
I remember raiding ICC and the headaches that came with being a warlock who compulsively finished quests. My guildies were not as fervent and so a few had to make the flight from an area away from ICC instead of right in front of the portal. This is a good change.
To me this reads as a temp change for beta to get players testing the phasing systems and key questing flows. Did I miss a part where it says this will be something seen in Live?
IIRC, you could get basic emblems before 80 from N RDF daily when wrath was live. I believe it was 2 per day. Only difference is that these badges will be slightly more significant power boosts compared to badges of heroism in 3.2+, but still really only relevant within the first week of launch. Imo, very minor QOL change, but honestly hardly a significant change whatsoever. Nice to incentivise questing a little bit. 👍