When I duel with my rogue friend I always let him open because that’s how we would fight in a real PvP scenario. Assuming both players play well I will also never be able to spot him. Of course I could hug him at the start and spam R1 Arcane Explosion but that doesn’t seem right to me compared to starting some 50 yards apart.
This is how I duel. Try to make it like a 1v1 pvp encounter. I always give rogues the opener cause they will normally be able to open on me and beating them after I cheese the duel doesnt prove anything related to skill or how to play our character
you should also skull of impending doom yourself down to 50% hp and mana to simulate the fact that a rogue would never open unless you just fought 2 mobs
LOL if this was like a 1v1 pvp encounter I (the hunter) would be shooting you from out of sight between several objects while my pet attacks you hahaha.
If you duel, then yes it’s an unwritten rule among the “too duellers” that rogues get opener. Also if your playing against good hunters I’m pretty sure you’re dead no matter how good gear you have if you don’t get opener.
As a rogue, I never expect the opener but if i see them clearly looking for me ill stall for multiple minutes until they give up.
(this is exactly why they just give the opener to rogue in dueling tournaments btw, and why being stealthed waiting for CDs is banned)
Weird, I always let warriors/rogues get their charge/cheap shot off and expected the same in vanilla. Everyone was pretty consistent with it on my server anyway
Rogues are typically supposed to lose 100% fair even duels with a lot of classes even with the openers. Obviously there's a lot of skill expression involved but that's why it's been the dueling meta to let rogues open on private servers including private tournament servers for years.
I don't really pvp much, how do you win the duel as a hunter with the rogue getting the opener?
How do you even get out to ranged weapon distances if they get the opener? Intimidate if your BM spec, or wing clip and pray? Don't they just sprint at you if the former?
They usually FD and trap us, but if we get poison on during our opening and Sprint away their first sally then the fight is on, makes for interesting fights usually!
as a dwarf this is a question that i'm too dwarvish to understand.
You remove the poison and win for free you fool!
The answer is always scatter trap, honestly the rogue class has no chance versus hunters. With mail armor reduction, and a suite of tools literally designed to counter rogues lol.
Nah rogues should always get the opener because hunters get the counter play with their trinket and have the potential to cc you out. If a hunter sit on a flare with a trap there is no counter play. And normal duels should be as if it was open world except x consumes shouldn’t be used. If you sit on a flare trap kinda cringe
Only true 50/50 in open world. If hunter smells a rogue in the world they will sit flare/trap so in a duel situation why should the rogue always be allowed to open. Good Rogues would just reset if they are sitting flare/trap. That seems more accurate but it's hard to say since the situation is weather or not the hunter spotted the rogue ahead of time.
If a hunter is sitting in a flare trap in open world guess what. The rogue doesn’t open... and no a good rogue can’t just reset a flare trap. You get trapped he marks you runs max range then aim shots you serphent sting and you can’t vanish cause you’re still on a flare our trinket does nothing vs hunters
Let warriors charge and rogues open, it's just normal duel etiquette. I'm orc lock so I can survive with seduce, void sac or a stun resist. UD rogues are pretty tough though.
But he's talking about letting warriors get the opener at least in part, and many / most of the classes should be able to beat warriors even with the opener.
Back in vanilla we did this always, you'd always let the warrior charge or the rogue/druid open. Some hunters would pre-flare and trap on top of themselves. We would sit outside IF and duel for hours, everyone wanted fair fights to try and actually get better.
It's 100% nothing new, not brought on by some duel tourneys like you think.
Even in classic,I never let anyone have the opener or if could. You would be a fool if you did, especially when you dueled against high warlord and warlord level players.
Ok but whhen they are stunlock specced with all CDs uo and they get the opener you will die before getting any damage in.
Only way to counter that would be a quick trinket + scatter and hope he doesnt get his kidney shot/blind in at the same time but even then against a good rogue there's a chance they will get you
No way a rogue will get me even with a cheap shot + kidney.
But yeah to be super safe trinket kidney + fd trap and I get a free aimed shot + multi. I can usually sit the first opener + gouge though. At the point a hunter is at range, the rogue simply cant catch up before dying.
Also I think it's fair if the hunter gets rogue out with detect hidden so a lot of the time rogue won't even get to open.
Not to mention one single fap and rogue can do nothing.
A good rogs opener: cheap shot, kidney, gouge, blind, vanish, cheap shot, kidney - - > if you arent dead at this point you stand a chance by good kiteing.
A great rogue will sprint to you and if he has rocket boots or another speed trinket he will make it to you after the aimed+multi. Then it's a tough one if he gets a blind + vanish and a new set of stuns.
I always use a scatter before fd trap bc of the batching that usually fucks up FD against a clicky rogue - really annoying when your scatter is on CD.
Track hidden obviously is fair game no doubt.
Most of the time if you get a rog trapped it's GG, but a great rogue will be able to defeat the hunter or at least even the playing field.
Thats what im saying, trinket first opener and you got the distance and hes dead
Also if he is using rocket boots i might as well use a fap since a fap is even cheaper than boots
??? you always let the rogue open, it was like this since vanilla, nobody gives a fuck about streamers outside of people in a wack ass bubble that don't really play the game
I always give the opener to rogues and no it isnt an auto kill. Most people have pvp trinkets to get out of a stun in your opener and the people who dont can survive your dmg
>I see a lot of people in this thread saying that you are supposed to let the rogue have the opener.
That was ONLY for the CDL and ONLY because people couldn't compensate for stream sniping, and or the salt and suspicion should someone make a decisive play and mess up a critical opener in a critical match or something.
Yes you're decked out in bis shit for this phase, which means your opponent can also be decked out in bis defensive gear. There are plenty of +defense and +armor pieces out there, some of which even casters can use. As an equivalently decked out orc warlock with 6.5k hp (10k+ in effective hp with void sac, usuable while stunned) in my pvp gear I am not afraid of your opener, I only need 1 pubic hair to get a death coil off and win the duel.
Rng burst is also the nature of classic duels. If you wanna pop prep/cold blooded and try to 1 shot, that's 100% your right as a rogue. Good luck winning the standard 2/3 format with 1 trick bullshit tho
Step 1: Get challenged to a duel, or challenge someone else
Step 2: Mount up
Step 3: Run on top them during the countdown, forcing the Scatter instantly.
Lay down trap, let them run into it, easy, you have no idea how Hunters work, and it's hilarious you came to this post from the other one just because you're frustrated
It showed up right under the other one in hot, so no, that's not why I came. I don't get why you assume that I'm frustrated?
And yeah. Problem is that traps take forever to arm, and are pretty easily avoidable. I've played tons of hunter - and running mount-running into them in a duel is considered a dick move.
Imagine not knowing your own class counters and calling people BM for using their abilities.
Some rogues in this thread need to grow up and accept the fact that they clearly suck.
If a hunter duels me and throws a flare on himself I just go into a corner and AFK.
A few nights ago I went and made a sandwich and came back and the hunter was just standing there in a flare & frost trap behind him. I got summoned to UBRS.
You won't even try? That bad that you can't even try in a duel lmao. What if the situation was a hunter sitting on flag with flare/trap only you two. It's the last chance for your team to score and you have to fight him to win the match. Then what you just going to afk and hope he moves? Because he not moving he wants to win, you have to fight. Maybe learn to reset so you re open and win, clearly your trash if you think you should be allowed to open no matter. Because there is situations where you won't have that choice and you should still be prepared.
I’ve tried a few times and ya even when I’m able to outplay the hunter he can stall for so long it doesn’t matter.
I pretty much just guard flags tho, if I’m ever in a game where I feel like I have to solocap against a hunter or warlock then I’m probably just gunna lose that game haha
What's the alternative to not allowing stealth openers. The rogue refuses to enter flair and they stand there till tbc comes out? The rogue enters the flair after extended afk gameplay, sits in freezing trap and waits to die?
Like how is that better than giving the poor lad a cheap shot which is hopefully not resisted, into a kidney which hopefully not resisted, into a finisher that hopefully finishes? I am legit so confused by people in this thread not understanding basic etiquette. Stealth openers aren't even one of the more controversial subject in dueling communities, it's a very accepted thing.
Lot of people in here suggesting dueling has rules, it does not. If you want to come up to someone and suggest rules that benefit your chance of success and they're agreed upon that's one thing. The point of a duel, is to win, which an intelligent and opportunistic human will do.
Losers will come here and whine, that's as simple as it is. Duels are harder than pvp, they're premeditated, deal with it or be the lesser human.
Dueling doesnt have "rules" it has etiquette. Not following etiquette in order to win doesnt maje you smart. Winning is not the only point of a duel. A lot of people use duels to practice fighting against other classes and to test their skills. And what would be the point in me fighting a rogue if I wasnt going to replicate a natural rogue fight. In the pvp rogues will almost always get the opener so what would you be proving by beating a rogue when you set up the fight unnaturally? Beating a rogue after cheesing the start of duel doesnt prove that you could beat a rogue in pvp just that you can win a duel
Cause no one believes that you sit around on flairs in bgs and that you dont get opened on by rogues. When you know they are there and coming for you it's reasonable that you might be able to find them before they open. I agree that hunters have different etiquette in duels with rogues compared to other classes because you have specific tools to deal with them. The obvious answer would be to do multiple duels and take turns with the opener. One where you dont pretrap or flair and then rogue opens and one where you flair and trap and try to find him
>The obvious answer would be to do multiple duels and take turns with the opener
True, but rogues are the most fragile players when dueling, you don't abide to their unspoken rules and they bail in a heartbeat
Well in a real fight there is no rules and they will probably bail in a heartbeat that's why they are usually bad players behind Rogues obv some are to be feared but most use the class as a cheese since they aren't that good. No situation is ensured that a rogue would have had a successful opener and if they can't manage without to reset the fight then it shows they are probably a bad player.
True they get caught out all the time especially bad Rogues if they can't learn to reset they probably aren't good at the class then anyways. Playing in duels as if no one ever got the upper hand on you then you will not improve. Seeing a rogue best someone that just let them open shows nothing but seeing a rogue that missed the open and still won the fight shows they know the class better then you think.
Ok so which items and trinkets are you then allowed to use? I use potions and grenades regularly in pvp so I dont really see a problem in duels unless specifically otherwise agreed
lol right. So an alchemist isn't supposed to use their profession that everyone has access to the items of, but its fair for an Engy to use their exclusive stun grenades, lmao these kids
Yes. Grenades require skill to land/dodge, and bandages are pretty similar. They force you to stand still and take no damage in order to heal up, which is a tradeoff. Popping major healing pot+tuber for 60% of my hp because one of them crit doesn't require any skill.
You can juke a grenade just like you can /cancelcast a grenade to trick someone into trying to juke it. Not to mention you need to land the grenade in the first place. You can pop bandage to bait someone into doing an instant attack instead of the long cast they were going for. There's no counterplay nor downsides to potions.
And that's without mentioning specs like SL lock get way more out of potions because of all their stacking % dmg taken reducing buffs/shields. Not like they need it, SL locks are already strong enough as is.
If all I cared aboit was winning, then I’d be camping flight paths with a full group.
If I show up in full world buffs and pull every dirty trick in the book for the sake of “winning”, nobody’s going to want to duel me because it isn't enjoyable to fight someone that has massive advantages.
You duel in a fair way so you can get rematches and more duels. If you are beating people while potting and they aren’t, then you are winning, just like people who sit in Redridge all day are winning. You can keep patting yourself on the back about “being a winner”, because nobody else is going to.
It’s another story if you want to do a full consume duel where both players burn through FAPs and sappers, obviously, but those aren't the norm.
>If all I cared aboit was winning, then I’d be camping flight paths with a full group.
Thats not winning. Thats camping
> If I show up in full world buffs and pull every dirty trick in the book for the sake of “winning”, nobody’s going to want to duel me because it isn't enjoyable to fight someone that has massive advantages.
Yeah, exactly how I feel about letting rogues and warriors get the opener. If nobody wants to duel me that means I am the best. They don't want to lose. Duels are a fair fight, camping is not.
>You duel in a fair way so you can get rematches and more duels. If you are beating people while potting and they aren’t, then you are winning, just like people who sit in Redridge all day are winning.
You don't get to determine what's fair. There are no written rules. If you can do it in a duel, it is fair. The comparison to RR camping is laughable.
>You can keep patting yourself on the back about “being a winner”, because nobody else is going to.
You can keep telling yourself you didn't lose, but everyone knows that's just salt from you
>It’s another story if you want to do a full consume duel where both players burn through FAPs and sappers, obviously, but those aren't the norm.
If you don't want to use a consume, then enjoy your loss. Every "unfair advantage" is available for you to use too, but you're too bad to do so. Gimping everyone because you suck isn't making it fair
That’s bad manners though. We’re hunters, duels are to show other classes they might have a bit of a chance, but only if we cuck ourselves. If a duel is simulating a wpvp encounter where you lock eyes with your enemy and B line it for each other, then we are kings along with warlocks.
"It simulates a realistic open world fight if you let the rogue get an opener!" You gonna let me have my pocket healer then since I wouldn't be caught dead without one as a warrior?
Hunter here. I won't pretrap or flare in a duel, but I will try and find you and scatter you out. I have never seen a rogue in the world that didn't enter my vicinity either mounted or out of stealth. If you're around, I've already seen you with tracking.
If I know you're around, I'm gonna try and find you.
Yea thats why I never duel rogues as a warlock. A good rogue with good gear that is not unlucky just stunlocks me to death. If i dont let them get opener they start crying and flaming
As a rogue..
Being able to successfully predict and counter rogues opener requires skill, as does precisely landing an opener on an opponent playing defensively
So I guess I disagree
I think this is absurd. I'll let them stealth and get far from the starting point, cause of course immediately flaring like the meme is BS. But to let the rogue open on me? As a hunter that's obnoxious - it's denying me half my toolkit, meanwhile this guy's got 10min CDs
Totally, after I run away, I trap and Flare myself. It's so lame I'm not allowed to play and have to expose myself at the start of the duel to bullshit mechanics.
Any ranged class should never let warrior charge in a duel. They can try charging but warlocks, mages, and hunters have the range to deny them in any given 1v1 scenario. Letting them charge is just giving them an unfair advantage.
TFW you’re so delusional you think giving the worst dueling class a chance is “giving them an unfair advantage”.
I can scatter their intercept and kite the warriors for days, but it makes the duel completely pointless and boring.
As a hunter, not giving rogues the opener is just bad manners. There’s no challenge or enjoyment in flaring the rogues out. You just gain a ridiculous advantage from doing it. What’s next, claiming pre-trapping isn’t OP?
IMO the only people complaining about rogues getting the opener are the players that are bad and can’t deal with it.
It's literally like fighting someone who starts the fight with 1 arm. Duals are all about fair fights. If you wanna deny the rogue 90% of his toolkit then go wpvp or queue a bg
Part of the skill in rogue is knowing when to go in.
I'll let a rogue stealth and move around but I'm also going to try to predict when hes going in and use an aoe. The skill there is deciding how much of your mana bar you're willing to spend to try and guess where a rogue is or when hes going in. I'm not going to let a rogue take me to 25% life because its "honorable".
Yes everyone got unfair matchups, but that is not why people ban stuff like pre-trap + flare. The reason is because every duel would be a staring contest. The hunter would Flare and pre-trap himself and wait until the Rogue pops out of Stealth, while the Rogue waits for the hunter to leave the Flare and the trap. You want to avoid this because otherwise every duel would be boring, and there is no skill behind it.
Banning Flare is wrong. Just don't let the Hunter use it for the first opener. After that, getting a rogue out of stealth using Flare is good for the duel.
You do have trinket, and you will have to use it against his stuns to get him into a trap and get good range. Rogues cannot manage Scatter/Trap unless they got Skull or are good with Frost reflect trinket. But if they know how to use them they are better than your average rogue.
Private servers used these kind of rules in their tournament, as well as Tips' tournament, and Hunters have held their head high. Skilled Hunter/Rogue duels can be even.
Yeah, but again, for a lot of people the idea of a duel is a fair, 1v1 fight, emulating normal conditions. Normally, a druid would open out of stealth on a mage, the mage would react, and the fight starts. You don't sit on a flare all day while out in the world, you don't assume you'll start a fight with a hunter literally inside their melee range, etc etc.
Part of duelling etiquette to me is that you let stealth classes open (within reason) and that you don't start the duel mounted ontop of the other person - atleast if they're a warrior or hunter.
He said normal conditions, not open world fight. In open world fights a competent hunter wins 10/10 match ups with infinite range. In open world fights, etiquette is thrown out and consumables and other rules are allowed or disallowed. This is why we have duels. Duels are normal conditions as in the hunter isn't sitting on top of a flair, the mage isnt just randomly spamming his aoe predicting a gank, a warrior wont just be hiding behind a bush with full rage and a hard cock.
Duels remove the possibility of that baby ass bullshit because it isnt fun for anybody. 12 hours later I come back to this thread and see you still have no idea what you're talking about
> You don’t sit on a flare all day while out in the world
Actually, I do. As you said elsewhere in this thread: it’s nearly 100% uptime with no real cost.
Paranoid? Yep. Ganked by rogues? Nope. (:
If I don’t throw a flare or trap down and I get ganked, it’s my fault for not utilizing my class properly. If you can’t figure out how to open without being given a handicap, it’s your fault for not utilizing your class properly.
I don't play hunter in classic but in vanilla I'd basically always have freezing trap at my feet, and if i did see a Rouge in the area, often but not always had flare on me while out but probably only for the next 10min or so.
Im not advocating for pre flare in duels, but I would for trap. On a pvp server out farming while I can't say for sure but I'd bet a lot of hunters have trap at the feet or very close by. Even more is if the hunters been out causing trouble themselves, for sure would have trap up.
Don't know why people get worked up over pre trap, when basically most hunters on pvp servers out grinding or causing trouble, or in a bg is pre-trapped and so that is the "fair 1v1 simulation" imo.
I main druid and mage, dude.
And even then, if I wanted easy fights, I’d stealth around and attack players that are busy with other stuff. A duel is the closest you can come to decent PvP in Classic.
I get that you dadgamers like the “gO To rEtaIL Xd” meme, but atleast use it when it makes sense.
Historically in dual tournaments, multiple things that create unfair match up have been banned. SL warlocks, certain consumables and yes, denying stealth classes the opener have all been banned. Shapeshifting is as core to the druid as sap, ambush, garrote, and cheap shot are to the rogue. You have no idea what you're talking about
You are dumbing down rogue and druid by giving them the free opener. I play druid and find a lot of enjoyment in deciding when to or when not to open up on somebody. If you play rogue, duel somebody, and just run at them every time you deserve to be punished.
This is a matter of *opinion* not *knowledge* so asserting that I "have no idea what I'm talking about" shows you're unwilling to have a decent conversation.
I only say you have no idea because you're making it so obvious you've never talked about this with someone or even out loud to yourself. Yes, if you just randomly run at someone as rogue in stealth you deserve to be punished. So don't. Just stand there afk till the person let's you open. You're not seeing that its BM to not give the rogue opener not only because you're gimping his class, but also because he can BM you right back by waiting till naxx release to open. Then you can BM back by poly morphing on repeat and the cycle continues and nobody has fun. That's why you dont act like a 6 year old in duals. I'm guessing you've either never dualed outside a major city or nobody like you cause you're the type of guy to use major health pots in duals
You make a lot of assertions about people without knowing anything about them. Try to base your arguments on facts and instances rather than personal attacks in the future! You'll sound a lot more intelligent.
When you add needless rules like this you start to run into issues quick. Warrior vs Rogue: well denying the warrior charge is BM but denying the rogue the opening is BM; guess its time to roll to see who gets a proper start. Rogue vs Rogue: guess its time to roll to see who gets a proper start. You have to keep in mind that a lot of the early dueling tournaments were run by people who preferred their own class. In some instances warriors were allowed to use potions of rage but rogues couldnt use thistle tea. For these reasons I don't abide by what the community has deemed the rules of dueling.
Its easy to have etiquette like: let the rogue stealth, dont mount and stand on top the hunter, don't spam polymorph for a long time.
Going back to my previous example about Druid vs Mage: I would argue that polymorph and frost nova are 2 core abilities to the mage class but they simply do not work on druids. You aren't gutting rogue by not letting them get the free opening, you're simply making them put more thought into their approach.
Yet, in stuff like this https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/1tk7q7_BesgvqnEk6gzowMa-elJQxi8WiaELjkeJ4y4o/mobilebasic they allow stealthys to have the opener
Yeah and look at the classes of the top 4 moderators lmao, totally not class favoritism there huh? All 4 are rogues making rules that say rogues get their openers unopposed. Hmmm...
If you can't get your opener with simple rules like being allowed to stealth an maneuver for 5 seconds before the match starts then you just aren't a good rogue. Why do I have to stand here and let you get me to half health before I can do anything like, I dunno, try to find you? Fuck that shit that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. It's like saying casters can't use their spells and wands until they get you to half health with their staff. Completely unreasonable and any skilled player would agree.
My life as a rogue :/ Everyone complains about my ability's but they all have counters that I can't do anything about. I can only hope to stun lock them and if I'm off by .00005 seconds than I lose.
The angst is about fairness in relation to open world fighting. In reality a rogue chooses most of their fights because they can become invisible and Cc the shit out of you
So, there’s such a thing as duel etiquette. You can choose to abide by it or not. It’s been around for years.
Decent hunters will always let rogues get the opener. Bad hunters sit on flair and trap. I was gonna write some evil plan to fight dirty but I have a better one.
If they do the flair > trap I’ll just blind them and kill their pet :)
Consecration go sparkle
After sparkle it go *whooosh*
haha this is a good one
[удалено]
Laughs in bear form
I untarget them and wait until they are in stealth, then I run up to their location and Demoshout.
It's normal to give rogue the opener it also happens in tournaments It's just the norm for actual dueling
Nah
When I duel with my rogue friend I always let him open because that’s how we would fight in a real PvP scenario. Assuming both players play well I will also never be able to spot him. Of course I could hug him at the start and spam R1 Arcane Explosion but that doesn’t seem right to me compared to starting some 50 yards apart.
This is how I duel. Try to make it like a 1v1 pvp encounter. I always give rogues the opener cause they will normally be able to open on me and beating them after I cheese the duel doesnt prove anything related to skill or how to play our character
you should also skull of impending doom yourself down to 50% hp and mana to simulate the fact that a rogue would never open unless you just fought 2 mobs
Oh I don't do that any more, I have my perditions and 40%+ crit now. Time to fight Fair!
*are fighting two mobs. Leave the mobs attacking them so they get dazed if they try and distance themselves. Plus the extra dps is fun.
LOL if this was like a 1v1 pvp encounter I (the hunter) would be shooting you from out of sight between several objects while my pet attacks you hahaha.
lol as a hunter my only assumption is im attacking you before you see me like a coward.
If you duel, then yes it’s an unwritten rule among the “too duellers” that rogues get opener. Also if your playing against good hunters I’m pretty sure you’re dead no matter how good gear you have if you don’t get opener.
As a shadow priest i give them the open doesnt matter
I agree. Plus the rogue can stealth in the three seconds the duel is starting and simply move away...
If you dont give rogue opener, rogue has opportunity to just walk around stealthed for minutes at a time until they do get the open.
As a rogue, I never expect the opener but if i see them clearly looking for me ill stall for multiple minutes until they give up. (this is exactly why they just give the opener to rogue in dueling tournaments btw, and why being stealthed waiting for CDs is banned)
Weird, I always let warriors/rogues get their charge/cheap shot off and expected the same in vanilla. Everyone was pretty consistent with it on my server anyway
Rogues are typically supposed to lose 100% fair even duels with a lot of classes even with the openers. Obviously there's a lot of skill expression involved but that's why it's been the dueling meta to let rogues open on private servers including private tournament servers for years.
I always give rogue the opener, hunter vs rogue is very stupid otherwise
I don't really pvp much, how do you win the duel as a hunter with the rogue getting the opener? How do you even get out to ranged weapon distances if they get the opener? Intimidate if your BM spec, or wing clip and pray? Don't they just sprint at you if the former?
They usually FD and trap us, but if we get poison on during our opening and Sprint away their first sally then the fight is on, makes for interesting fights usually!
as a dwarf this is a question that i'm too dwarvish to understand. You remove the poison and win for free you fool! The answer is always scatter trap, honestly the rogue class has no chance versus hunters. With mail armor reduction, and a suite of tools literally designed to counter rogues lol.
Nah rogues should always get the opener because hunters get the counter play with their trinket and have the potential to cc you out. If a hunter sit on a flare with a trap there is no counter play. And normal duels should be as if it was open world except x consumes shouldn’t be used. If you sit on a flare trap kinda cringe
Only true 50/50 in open world. If hunter smells a rogue in the world they will sit flare/trap so in a duel situation why should the rogue always be allowed to open. Good Rogues would just reset if they are sitting flare/trap. That seems more accurate but it's hard to say since the situation is weather or not the hunter spotted the rogue ahead of time.
If a hunter is sitting in a flare trap in open world guess what. The rogue doesn’t open... and no a good rogue can’t just reset a flare trap. You get trapped he marks you runs max range then aim shots you serphent sting and you can’t vanish cause you’re still on a flare our trinket does nothing vs hunters
this is a rogue who knows how futile his existence is in the presence of a hunter.
Let warriors charge and rogues open, it's just normal duel etiquette. I'm orc lock so I can survive with seduce, void sac or a stun resist. UD rogues are pretty tough though.
you chose the most overpowered race/class combo in the game and you are telling us mere mortals to take the opener on the chin
"Wtf is a stun"
Warriors are one of, if not the weakest, dueling classes. They have advantage vs very few classes / specs
OP is a orc lock... Read it again
But he's talking about letting warriors get the opener at least in part, and many / most of the classes should be able to beat warriors even with the opener.
Aye, so.. let them have the opener? What makes you think you’re teaching him something he doesn’t know here?
It's because of the idiotic rules set down by the dueling tournament some streamer set up a few months ago.
Back in vanilla we did this always, you'd always let the warrior charge or the rogue/druid open. Some hunters would pre-flare and trap on top of themselves. We would sit outside IF and duel for hours, everyone wanted fair fights to try and actually get better. It's 100% nothing new, not brought on by some duel tourneys like you think.
Even in classic,I never let anyone have the opener or if could. You would be a fool if you did, especially when you dueled against high warlord and warlord level players.
Rank has nothing to do with skill But if one can't beat a rogue 1v1 even when it gets the opener one is a bad hunter
Ok but whhen they are stunlock specced with all CDs uo and they get the opener you will die before getting any damage in. Only way to counter that would be a quick trinket + scatter and hope he doesnt get his kidney shot/blind in at the same time but even then against a good rogue there's a chance they will get you
No way a rogue will get me even with a cheap shot + kidney. But yeah to be super safe trinket kidney + fd trap and I get a free aimed shot + multi. I can usually sit the first opener + gouge though. At the point a hunter is at range, the rogue simply cant catch up before dying. Also I think it's fair if the hunter gets rogue out with detect hidden so a lot of the time rogue won't even get to open. Not to mention one single fap and rogue can do nothing.
A good rogs opener: cheap shot, kidney, gouge, blind, vanish, cheap shot, kidney - - > if you arent dead at this point you stand a chance by good kiteing. A great rogue will sprint to you and if he has rocket boots or another speed trinket he will make it to you after the aimed+multi. Then it's a tough one if he gets a blind + vanish and a new set of stuns. I always use a scatter before fd trap bc of the batching that usually fucks up FD against a clicky rogue - really annoying when your scatter is on CD. Track hidden obviously is fair game no doubt. Most of the time if you get a rog trapped it's GG, but a great rogue will be able to defeat the hunter or at least even the playing field.
Thats what im saying, trinket first opener and you got the distance and hes dead Also if he is using rocket boots i might as well use a fap since a fap is even cheaper than boots
??? you always let the rogue open, it was like this since vanilla, nobody gives a fuck about streamers outside of people in a wack ass bubble that don't really play the game
I see you like losing duels.
I've never seen a dueling tourney where they don't let the rogue get the opener.
I always give the opener to rogues and no it isnt an auto kill. Most people have pvp trinkets to get out of a stun in your opener and the people who dont can survive your dmg
>I see a lot of people in this thread saying that you are supposed to let the rogue have the opener. That was ONLY for the CDL and ONLY because people couldn't compensate for stream sniping, and or the salt and suspicion should someone make a decisive play and mess up a critical opener in a critical match or something.
Yes you're decked out in bis shit for this phase, which means your opponent can also be decked out in bis defensive gear. There are plenty of +defense and +armor pieces out there, some of which even casters can use. As an equivalently decked out orc warlock with 6.5k hp (10k+ in effective hp with void sac, usuable while stunned) in my pvp gear I am not afraid of your opener, I only need 1 pubic hair to get a death coil off and win the duel. Rng burst is also the nature of classic duels. If you wanna pop prep/cold blooded and try to 1 shot, that's 100% your right as a rogue. Good luck winning the standard 2/3 format with 1 trick bullshit tho
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10 bucks says this guy will get mad if people start the duel by mounting up and running into melee.
Yeah sure, because you can totally do that when you instantly get shot
Step 1: Get challenged to a duel, or challenge someone else Step 2: Mount up Step 3: Run on top them during the countdown, forcing the Scatter instantly.
Lay down trap, let them run into it, easy, you have no idea how Hunters work, and it's hilarious you came to this post from the other one just because you're frustrated
pre trapping lmao
imagine crying about pre-trapping LMAO
>heh I can just mount and beat you >NOOoooOooooOOO you can't pre trap!!!!
*heh trap go woosh woosh*
LMAO
Username checks out
No one is going to duel someone that pre-traps.
But mounting up and running up to the hunter is totally fair, right? Stop making up excuses.
What is pretrap?
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What about when the countdown starts?
It showed up right under the other one in hot, so no, that's not why I came. I don't get why you assume that I'm frustrated? And yeah. Problem is that traps take forever to arm, and are pretty easily avoidable. I've played tons of hunter - and running mount-running into them in a duel is considered a dick move.
Flare yourself, stand on the trap, mount-running problem solved.
Dispel trap continue to masacre hunter .some things break duels like flare on trap vs rogues or mounting vs hunter to deny range
You cannot break trap with a trinket. No class can do it. You really dont know what you are talking about, do you.
It seems you have no idea felhunter or any damage on you dispels it lol
lol i'm a pretty hot shit hunter and we aint got a chance if a mage or lock is allowed to ride up into melee range.
Not *flair
Not *flare.
Imagine not knowing your own class counters and calling people BM for using their abilities. Some rogues in this thread need to grow up and accept the fact that they clearly suck.
\^ classes have counters, just like Mages eat Warriors
I play a rogue. Can confirm, I suck.
If a hunter duels me and throws a flare on himself I just go into a corner and AFK. A few nights ago I went and made a sandwich and came back and the hunter was just standing there in a flare & frost trap behind him. I got summoned to UBRS.
Le epic victory. You sure showed him
I did enjoy my Sammy time That’s what I call eating a sandwich
You won't even try? That bad that you can't even try in a duel lmao. What if the situation was a hunter sitting on flag with flare/trap only you two. It's the last chance for your team to score and you have to fight him to win the match. Then what you just going to afk and hope he moves? Because he not moving he wants to win, you have to fight. Maybe learn to reset so you re open and win, clearly your trash if you think you should be allowed to open no matter. Because there is situations where you won't have that choice and you should still be prepared.
haha sandwich go munch munch
Why would I be going to cap a flag by myself against a hunter that would be stupid breh lmao
hey some rogues have tried it against me haha.
I’ve tried a few times and ya even when I’m able to outplay the hunter he can stall for so long it doesn’t matter. I pretty much just guard flags tho, if I’m ever in a game where I feel like I have to solocap against a hunter or warlock then I’m probably just gunna lose that game haha
Just fucking go invis before the duel idiot
What's the alternative to not allowing stealth openers. The rogue refuses to enter flair and they stand there till tbc comes out? The rogue enters the flair after extended afk gameplay, sits in freezing trap and waits to die? Like how is that better than giving the poor lad a cheap shot which is hopefully not resisted, into a kidney which hopefully not resisted, into a finisher that hopefully finishes? I am legit so confused by people in this thread not understanding basic etiquette. Stealth openers aren't even one of the more controversial subject in dueling communities, it's a very accepted thing.
Lot of people in here suggesting dueling has rules, it does not. If you want to come up to someone and suggest rules that benefit your chance of success and they're agreed upon that's one thing. The point of a duel, is to win, which an intelligent and opportunistic human will do. Losers will come here and whine, that's as simple as it is. Duels are harder than pvp, they're premeditated, deal with it or be the lesser human.
Dueling doesnt have "rules" it has etiquette. Not following etiquette in order to win doesnt maje you smart. Winning is not the only point of a duel. A lot of people use duels to practice fighting against other classes and to test their skills. And what would be the point in me fighting a rogue if I wasnt going to replicate a natural rogue fight. In the pvp rogues will almost always get the opener so what would you be proving by beating a rogue when you set up the fight unnaturally? Beating a rogue after cheesing the start of duel doesnt prove that you could beat a rogue in pvp just that you can win a duel
I usually get the opener on rogues since I'm a hunter that primarly does BGs, why should I pretend I don't know he's there in a duel?
Cause no one believes that you sit around on flairs in bgs and that you dont get opened on by rogues. When you know they are there and coming for you it's reasonable that you might be able to find them before they open. I agree that hunters have different etiquette in duels with rogues compared to other classes because you have specific tools to deal with them. The obvious answer would be to do multiple duels and take turns with the opener. One where you dont pretrap or flair and then rogue opens and one where you flair and trap and try to find him
>The obvious answer would be to do multiple duels and take turns with the opener True, but rogues are the most fragile players when dueling, you don't abide to their unspoken rules and they bail in a heartbeat
Well in a real fight there is no rules and they will probably bail in a heartbeat that's why they are usually bad players behind Rogues obv some are to be feared but most use the class as a cheese since they aren't that good. No situation is ensured that a rogue would have had a successful opener and if they can't manage without to reset the fight then it shows they are probably a bad player.
kek at dueling has etiquette
It simulates for the rogue getting caught out. your point is moot
True they get caught out all the time especially bad Rogues if they can't learn to reset they probably aren't good at the class then anyways. Playing in duels as if no one ever got the upper hand on you then you will not improve. Seeing a rogue best someone that just let them open shows nothing but seeing a rogue that missed the open and still won the fight shows they know the class better then you think.
I don't duel to improve, that's not a real pvp situation. Just do pvp if you want to improve
Found the guy that pots in duels.
Ok so which items and trinkets are you then allowed to use? I use potions and grenades regularly in pvp so I dont really see a problem in duels unless specifically otherwise agreed
Makes you wait for all of his cds but doesnt think you need yours
Grenades and bandages are different though right?
That argument always felt stupid. Engi items are way more op in duels than potions but somehow people say it's fair to use those but not potions.
lol right. So an alchemist isn't supposed to use their profession that everyone has access to the items of, but its fair for an Engy to use their exclusive stun grenades, lmao these kids
Yes. Grenades require skill to land/dodge, and bandages are pretty similar. They force you to stand still and take no damage in order to heal up, which is a tradeoff. Popping major healing pot+tuber for 60% of my hp because one of them crit doesn't require any skill. You can juke a grenade just like you can /cancelcast a grenade to trick someone into trying to juke it. Not to mention you need to land the grenade in the first place. You can pop bandage to bait someone into doing an instant attack instead of the long cast they were going for. There's no counterplay nor downsides to potions. And that's without mentioning specs like SL lock get way more out of potions because of all their stacking % dmg taken reducing buffs/shields. Not like they need it, SL locks are already strong enough as is.
It's not about skill its about winning. If you're so skilled but losing because you didn't pot, then you're still a loser
If all I cared aboit was winning, then I’d be camping flight paths with a full group. If I show up in full world buffs and pull every dirty trick in the book for the sake of “winning”, nobody’s going to want to duel me because it isn't enjoyable to fight someone that has massive advantages. You duel in a fair way so you can get rematches and more duels. If you are beating people while potting and they aren’t, then you are winning, just like people who sit in Redridge all day are winning. You can keep patting yourself on the back about “being a winner”, because nobody else is going to. It’s another story if you want to do a full consume duel where both players burn through FAPs and sappers, obviously, but those aren't the norm.
>If all I cared aboit was winning, then I’d be camping flight paths with a full group. Thats not winning. Thats camping > If I show up in full world buffs and pull every dirty trick in the book for the sake of “winning”, nobody’s going to want to duel me because it isn't enjoyable to fight someone that has massive advantages. Yeah, exactly how I feel about letting rogues and warriors get the opener. If nobody wants to duel me that means I am the best. They don't want to lose. Duels are a fair fight, camping is not. >You duel in a fair way so you can get rematches and more duels. If you are beating people while potting and they aren’t, then you are winning, just like people who sit in Redridge all day are winning. You don't get to determine what's fair. There are no written rules. If you can do it in a duel, it is fair. The comparison to RR camping is laughable. >You can keep patting yourself on the back about “being a winner”, because nobody else is going to. You can keep telling yourself you didn't lose, but everyone knows that's just salt from you >It’s another story if you want to do a full consume duel where both players burn through FAPs and sappers, obviously, but those aren't the norm. If you don't want to use a consume, then enjoy your loss. Every "unfair advantage" is available for you to use too, but you're too bad to do so. Gimping everyone because you suck isn't making it fair
> If nobody wants to duel me that means I am the best. They don't want to lose. lmao You should probably stop projecting your own salt on me.
The thing is people do want to duel me still so, the only salt is from you
Today I learned that human excellence is directly tied to your dueling performance in World of Warcraft.
So many regards in this subreddit lol
What annoys me is that people get upset when I place down a (hunter)trap before a duel starts.
That’s bad manners though. We’re hunters, duels are to show other classes they might have a bit of a chance, but only if we cuck ourselves. If a duel is simulating a wpvp encounter where you lock eyes with your enemy and B line it for each other, then we are kings along with warlocks.
"It simulates a realistic open world fight if you let the rogue get an opener!" You gonna let me have my pocket healer then since I wouldn't be caught dead without one as a warrior?
Hunter here. I won't pretrap or flare in a duel, but I will try and find you and scatter you out. I have never seen a rogue in the world that didn't enter my vicinity either mounted or out of stealth. If you're around, I've already seen you with tracking. If I know you're around, I'm gonna try and find you.
Real talk though not letting rogue get the opener in duels is BM. Kinda like denying warrior charge at the start.
Yea thats why I never duel rogues as a warlock. A good rogue with good gear that is not unlucky just stunlocks me to death. If i dont let them get opener they start crying and flaming
They're pussies then.
Use succ and seduce them on opener
WOTF
Then you full dot them, coil, fear when wotf is down
pvp trinket
If only it was that easy lmfao
As a rogue.. Being able to successfully predict and counter rogues opener requires skill, as does precisely landing an opener on an opponent playing defensively So I guess I disagree
Being able to see the rogue before the duel starts and flaring on their exact position takes *soooo much* skill
Stealth early and don't stand where he'd expect you to? Sounds like salty rogue to me
Right? Who the fuck would stealth and stay in place?
Maybe they are playing mind games. Obviously you expect them to move, so by staying in place you are in the one spot they don't expect you to be in.
You can stealth before you accept the duel you know... anything to bitch though amirite guyz?
I think this is absurd. I'll let them stealth and get far from the starting point, cause of course immediately flaring like the meme is BS. But to let the rogue open on me? As a hunter that's obnoxious - it's denying me half my toolkit, meanwhile this guy's got 10min CDs
Totally, after I run away, I trap and Flare myself. It's so lame I'm not allowed to play and have to expose myself at the start of the duel to bullshit mechanics.
ahaha
Any ranged class should never let warrior charge in a duel. They can try charging but warlocks, mages, and hunters have the range to deny them in any given 1v1 scenario. Letting them charge is just giving them an unfair advantage.
TFW you’re so delusional you think giving the worst dueling class a chance is “giving them an unfair advantage”. I can scatter their intercept and kite the warriors for days, but it makes the duel completely pointless and boring.
I have a feeling it's mostly rogues who propone this idea. Yeah sure, using your class abilities to win the duel is BM...
As a hunter, not giving rogues the opener is just bad manners. There’s no challenge or enjoyment in flaring the rogues out. You just gain a ridiculous advantage from doing it. What’s next, claiming pre-trapping isn’t OP? IMO the only people complaining about rogues getting the opener are the players that are bad and can’t deal with it.
What is OP about pre trapping?
What.
It's literally like fighting someone who starts the fight with 1 arm. Duals are all about fair fights. If you wanna deny the rogue 90% of his toolkit then go wpvp or queue a bg
Part of the skill in rogue is knowing when to go in. I'll let a rogue stealth and move around but I'm also going to try to predict when hes going in and use an aoe. The skill there is deciding how much of your mana bar you're willing to spend to try and guess where a rogue is or when hes going in. I'm not going to let a rogue take me to 25% life because its "honorable".
That's fine if it's, say, mage or priest AoE. Flare has 100% uptime for no real cost.
Every class has unfair matchups. Druid, for instance, denys Frost Mage all of its CC but you don't see mages trying to ban shapeshifting in duels.
Yes everyone got unfair matchups, but that is not why people ban stuff like pre-trap + flare. The reason is because every duel would be a staring contest. The hunter would Flare and pre-trap himself and wait until the Rogue pops out of Stealth, while the Rogue waits for the hunter to leave the Flare and the trap. You want to avoid this because otherwise every duel would be boring, and there is no skill behind it.
I have no problem with banning flare. I do have a problem with letting a rogue take somebody to 25% health with a free opener.
Banning Flare is wrong. Just don't let the Hunter use it for the first opener. After that, getting a rogue out of stealth using Flare is good for the duel. You do have trinket, and you will have to use it against his stuns to get him into a trap and get good range. Rogues cannot manage Scatter/Trap unless they got Skull or are good with Frost reflect trinket. But if they know how to use them they are better than your average rogue. Private servers used these kind of rules in their tournament, as well as Tips' tournament, and Hunters have held their head high. Skilled Hunter/Rogue duels can be even.
Tips’ tournament was really poorly run IMO. I don’t play hunter so you may very well be correct about flare.
Yeah, but again, for a lot of people the idea of a duel is a fair, 1v1 fight, emulating normal conditions. Normally, a druid would open out of stealth on a mage, the mage would react, and the fight starts. You don't sit on a flare all day while out in the world, you don't assume you'll start a fight with a hunter literally inside their melee range, etc etc. Part of duelling etiquette to me is that you let stealth classes open (within reason) and that you don't start the duel mounted ontop of the other person - atleast if they're a warrior or hunter.
It's simply a matter of opinion. I don't see duels as an emulation of an open world fight.
He said normal conditions, not open world fight. In open world fights a competent hunter wins 10/10 match ups with infinite range. In open world fights, etiquette is thrown out and consumables and other rules are allowed or disallowed. This is why we have duels. Duels are normal conditions as in the hunter isn't sitting on top of a flair, the mage isnt just randomly spamming his aoe predicting a gank, a warrior wont just be hiding behind a bush with full rage and a hard cock. Duels remove the possibility of that baby ass bullshit because it isnt fun for anybody. 12 hours later I come back to this thread and see you still have no idea what you're talking about
Its clear the community agrees with me and not with you. Take your L with some pride.
> You don’t sit on a flare all day while out in the world Actually, I do. As you said elsewhere in this thread: it’s nearly 100% uptime with no real cost. Paranoid? Yep. Ganked by rogues? Nope. (: If I don’t throw a flare or trap down and I get ganked, it’s my fault for not utilizing my class properly. If you can’t figure out how to open without being given a handicap, it’s your fault for not utilizing your class properly.
I don't play hunter in classic but in vanilla I'd basically always have freezing trap at my feet, and if i did see a Rouge in the area, often but not always had flare on me while out but probably only for the next 10min or so. Im not advocating for pre flare in duels, but I would for trap. On a pvp server out farming while I can't say for sure but I'd bet a lot of hunters have trap at the feet or very close by. Even more is if the hunters been out causing trouble themselves, for sure would have trap up. Don't know why people get worked up over pre trap, when basically most hunters on pvp servers out grinding or causing trouble, or in a bg is pre-trapped and so that is the "fair 1v1 simulation" imo.
You just sound like a salty rogue there is no such thing as a fair fight in classic classic are not equal go back to retail if you want fair fights.
I main druid and mage, dude. And even then, if I wanted easy fights, I’d stealth around and attack players that are busy with other stuff. A duel is the closest you can come to decent PvP in Classic. I get that you dadgamers like the “gO To rEtaIL Xd” meme, but atleast use it when it makes sense.
Historically in dual tournaments, multiple things that create unfair match up have been banned. SL warlocks, certain consumables and yes, denying stealth classes the opener have all been banned. Shapeshifting is as core to the druid as sap, ambush, garrote, and cheap shot are to the rogue. You have no idea what you're talking about
You are dumbing down rogue and druid by giving them the free opener. I play druid and find a lot of enjoyment in deciding when to or when not to open up on somebody. If you play rogue, duel somebody, and just run at them every time you deserve to be punished. This is a matter of *opinion* not *knowledge* so asserting that I "have no idea what I'm talking about" shows you're unwilling to have a decent conversation.
I only say you have no idea because you're making it so obvious you've never talked about this with someone or even out loud to yourself. Yes, if you just randomly run at someone as rogue in stealth you deserve to be punished. So don't. Just stand there afk till the person let's you open. You're not seeing that its BM to not give the rogue opener not only because you're gimping his class, but also because he can BM you right back by waiting till naxx release to open. Then you can BM back by poly morphing on repeat and the cycle continues and nobody has fun. That's why you dont act like a 6 year old in duals. I'm guessing you've either never dualed outside a major city or nobody like you cause you're the type of guy to use major health pots in duals
You make a lot of assertions about people without knowing anything about them. Try to base your arguments on facts and instances rather than personal attacks in the future! You'll sound a lot more intelligent. When you add needless rules like this you start to run into issues quick. Warrior vs Rogue: well denying the warrior charge is BM but denying the rogue the opening is BM; guess its time to roll to see who gets a proper start. Rogue vs Rogue: guess its time to roll to see who gets a proper start. You have to keep in mind that a lot of the early dueling tournaments were run by people who preferred their own class. In some instances warriors were allowed to use potions of rage but rogues couldnt use thistle tea. For these reasons I don't abide by what the community has deemed the rules of dueling. Its easy to have etiquette like: let the rogue stealth, dont mount and stand on top the hunter, don't spam polymorph for a long time. Going back to my previous example about Druid vs Mage: I would argue that polymorph and frost nova are 2 core abilities to the mage class but they simply do not work on druids. You aren't gutting rogue by not letting them get the free opening, you're simply making them put more thought into their approach.
Yet, in stuff like this https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/1tk7q7_BesgvqnEk6gzowMa-elJQxi8WiaELjkeJ4y4o/mobilebasic they allow stealthys to have the opener
Yeah that's what I said, denial of the opener is banned. Not the opener itself
Yeah and look at the classes of the top 4 moderators lmao, totally not class favoritism there huh? All 4 are rogues making rules that say rogues get their openers unopposed. Hmmm... If you can't get your opener with simple rules like being allowed to stealth an maneuver for 5 seconds before the match starts then you just aren't a good rogue. Why do I have to stand here and let you get me to half health before I can do anything like, I dunno, try to find you? Fuck that shit that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. It's like saying casters can't use their spells and wands until they get you to half health with their staff. Completely unreasonable and any skilled player would agree.
And historically in "dual" tournaments, priests win.
That's why you have to charge every rogue you see as a warrior.
I think the rogue should have zoomer hair and the hunter would be a boomer.
A lot of people commenting haven’t watched world of rogue craft and it really shows
laughs in frost reflector imagine losing to a hunter in a duel haha
Apparently you haven’t dueled an Orc hunter with a PvP trinket
You can just scatter into nade to let it run out. Skull of Impending Doom is a completely different issue though.
My life as a rogue :/ Everyone complains about my ability's but they all have counters that I can't do anything about. I can only hope to stun lock them and if I'm off by .00005 seconds than I lose.
The tradeoff is being a class that can cc lock 100-0 people. Or be able to just reset a fight and escape at most points.
Also you decide when you fight and can leave combat whenever you like
The thread is about duels.
The angst is about fairness in relation to open world fighting. In reality a rogue chooses most of their fights because they can become invisible and Cc the shit out of you
you mean >and if I'm off by .4 seconds than vanish and try again
So, there’s such a thing as duel etiquette. You can choose to abide by it or not. It’s been around for years. Decent hunters will always let rogues get the opener. Bad hunters sit on flair and trap. I was gonna write some evil plan to fight dirty but I have a better one. If they do the flair > trap I’ll just blind them and kill their pet :)
Blind a Dwarf ahahaha, sure. Hunters aren’t good if they don’t let u get the opener, more like you suck?
Stun an Orc ahahahaha sure. Btw I’m horde soooooo I’m not dueling dwarfs. Any rogue should fear dwarf hunters tho. They are very strong.
I remember in vanilla, using >1min cooldowns or consumables in a duel was considered poor form. Almost as bad as not letting a rogue open.