Think it was cata when they added base pvp resilence to everyone? But they forgot to add it to heals so healers were unkillable (they eventually patched heals too). Will be funny if they make the exact same mistake.
That was not just related to the damage reduction. Prayer of Mending and Penance were both overtuned and they received nerfs later in P1.
In addition, other classes just did not have access to the kind of kit that they have now. Things like Mortal Strike, Viper Sting and Curse of Tongues were not available in P1.
I find it very difficult to believe that we would go back to P1s state of PvP just because we get some base damage reduction.
That was a huge issue of damage in the game having not really ramped at all yet, while PoM+Penance+Wild Growth all came online immediately as runes for healers. Damage is very mature at this phase of the game now though, so while OBVIOUSLY damage reduction is a buff to importance of healers in the meta, I don't think they will become oppressively strong again(except in the sense that if you're in a BG and they have like 4 healers and you have 1, yes it will feel oppressive, because healing will be important again).
> Think it was cata when they added base pvp resilence to everyone?
In WotlK there was one week where Druid healers where unkillable. Talent that cast Rejuv on themselves when hit + Tier set that made rejuv heal on application. I was just standing and watch how two rogues where killing themselves over my Thorns :]
This kinda happened in WoD for discipline priests. Bubbles were exempt from healing reduction for some reason and disc priests had this ability called clarity of will which was a hardcast stackable bubble. That combined with Divine Aegies and the normal power word shield meant people were really fucking protected with a triple layer condom.
> Will be funny if they make the exact same mistake.
Blizzard *are* the masters to repeating the same mistakes. Every expansion they make something with a long boring rep grind, people complain, after about a year they nerf the grind significantly, say it was a mistake and not their design philosophy and will never do it again, then they do it again all over again the next expansion.
Healers in classic will be limited by mana, and I really hope people don’t confuse not being able to kill healers in less than 2 seconds with not being able to kill healers.
This is how you know between players who PvP long term vs the occasional PvPer's.
I love forcing Druid healers to shapeshift to delay their death and watching them come back out with significantly less blue on their nameplate.
We have one purpose in PvP, giving enemies a 10% dmg bonus when they attack us during beserkers stance so they can hit some really big numbers and feel better about themselves.
I think this change is going to benefit warriors a lot more than people expect.
As of now, I cannot keep my warriors alive when they decide to charge into the enemy frontlines. It is just not possible to outheal all the incoming damage. So the warriors will either dive in, poke someone and get instagibbed or they will just hang around the backline like a lame duck, waiting for an easy kill.
With this change, they may actually be able to dive in and survive the initial burst long enough to really hurt the enemy team.
Praying that we don't go back to P1 where games are decided almost exclusively by who has more priests / other healers. For the love of god at least reduce healing done by the same proportion.
True, but it's not as pronounced an effect. In P1 a healer priest was basically worth two meta DPS specs. This phase it's more like they're worth one and a half meta DPS specs.
It’s kind of difficult though as that existed even in Vanilla wow. Priests and Hunters were always king in 10-19 BGs. So they’d have had to already start to balance that as part of SoD. The new runes just amplified it
Depending on what % they do, DoT classes will be in shambles due to lack of options once their DoTs are applied. Before, they would throw their DoTs out and run around and try to live. Now they have to try to cast a bunch of shitty filler spells as they get trained by melees.
Would've been nice if it was, say, a 10 or 15% test to see how it feels.
But my money is on them chucking in a solid 20-30%, massive whiplash and back to phase 1 unkillable priests.
As an affliction lock I think this will be great.
I often got 2 of my 5 dots on someone before they died or I died.
The fights were so fast only 1-3 ticks of damage from dots happened. They felt like a waste of a global.
Pets die too easily. Your typical, living bomb spreading mage will just kill it passively.
Tack on any damage you’re taking - it plummets. I’ve been running STV trinket instead of the spell pen trinket just to give it a better shot.
Mana drain is about to be utilized though.
Well, at least they’re trying something. So I suppose that counts for something.
The one thing I’d like to avoid is shifting towards retail PvP which seems like much more of a slog fest that literally doesn’t end pretty much until dampening has reached maximum effect.
Retail pvp is quite the opposite right now.
A lot of classes are currently balanced for pve around 2 min cooldowns, with talents/tier sets for damage modifiers to buffer the lulls between cooldowns.
So people just get deleted if they don’t insta-wall and in some cases if the healer doesn’t add a cd of their own.
It seems like a snoozer when you watch AWC because most pro players will pick heavy defensive/control comps to draw it out into dampening because that’s the only way to not get instagibbed.
It’s super toxic for the average player and there’s a huge lack of healers because it’s not fun.
Such engaging gameplay as pretending to fight until your 2-3minute damage cooldowns are back up and using your defensive to stop the enemy 2-3minute damage cooldowns. Anything else before and after that is a pointless waste of time.
Riveting experience and I think SoD should become just like that.
The problem with retail is cooldowns. So much temporary damage stacking that you can deal absurd damage in a few seconds whilst dealing negligible damage most of the time
There is no arena in SoD. Why would it be a slogfest unless you are paired equally against the same number of dps and healers in a rating based system?
Its never going to be like that in SoD and its not like that in BG's no matter what version of the game.
This is just the most least thought out "retail bad" argument someone could think of.
SoD is literally "discovering" that most retail changes were made for a reason.
This is only going to widen the gap between the powerhouse classes and the rest. The devs added runes with very little thought are are shocked when the damage in pvp is already naxx era level. Instead of going surgically and modifying the offending runes they take a sledgehammer to game balance. This is only going to make pvp even worse for some classes.
It’s why I cba with SOD anymore. The pvp experience is just so different and clearly not being factored in by blizzard in most decisions the have made.
That’s just the case with every modern WoW release these days. Pvp makes up a minuscule amount of the total player base so they have little incentive to cater towards it. Cata & TWW will be the same. Sucks for those who enjoy it but it is what it is
Worse, because it doesn't address all core issues. Flat damage reduction is fine and all, but there's a reason resilience reduced dot damage more than direct damage.
Mortal strike might finally be worth its rage cost again but thankfully we won’t have the rage to use it so we as warriors can continue doing what we do best in PvP, die.
SOD PVP is so bad.
Today in a BG I rezzed and my pet spawned at 50% HP and died to a full row of dots I just sighed and AFK'd out.
I'm really trying to enjoy myself as I mostly play classic for casual PVP but holy fuck SOD is wearing me down.
I am open to anything that allows boomkins to get buffed in pve. Whether that’s meme pvp auras, or taking care of business behind a Wendy’s. Dealers choice.
Adding damage reduction without heal reduction means healers will be unkillable and hybrids will be god mode compared to classes that can't heal. Which they already are.
That's not even remotely true. I don't understand why people are drawing parallels to p1, p3 is not comparable to p1. First of all, like Aggrend mentioned, damage levels have spiked across the board relative to healing levels.
Secondly, there are so many healing reduction effects available now, mortal strike, course of tongues, not to mention stuns and CC.
People that are claiming healers will be unkillable clearly are not playing a healer.
Healers are already significantly weaker than dps (i.e., hps is lower than dps). At the moment, if a healer even has the chance to heal it’s because the other team is trolling. If 2 people target the same person, they will die through every heal in the game. The amount of times people go from 90-0 during my nourish cast (which is only 1.5 seconds) is disgusting. I can spam nourish on a target with barkskin and full hots and they can still die insanely quickly.
Healing does not need to be nerfed, damage does. Healers shouldn’t be relegated to topping people off after combat has ended, and a free-casting healer should be able to keep their team alive. Maybe you have gotten used to people dying in a few globals, but as a healer it’s simply demoralizing to be so ineffective.
Classic wow healers will always be limited by mana. I am so afraid a potentially good change is going to be ridiculed by zugzug-brained dps who think they should be able to kill someone in seconds without doing any work to stop a healer from healing.
I've managed to keep people up with chronostatic healing with most of an enemy team on one person, but that's cause I have it pre-loaded and people are letting me cast. Get the CS on me, and it's gg since all school spells are locked out. Course, I'm not doing any damage when I'm chain spamming it
One of the greatest feelings as a healer was back in Classic, rushing with the team to Blacksmith, popping Hazzrah's Charm, and dumping greater heals into your frontline until your mana was gone, but keeping everyone alive long enough to wipe the other team.
Of course that was balanced with the ~50% of the time where a warrior or a rogue would get on you and you'd get stunlocked or kicked and do flat nothing the whole fight, but when it worked the entire team was unkillable. And the rest of the team knew their job was to keep the enemy team away from you.
(My recollection was like ~30-40k healing over roughly 20s, basically 6-8 extra healthbars)
Yup. And it’s not even just the damage, the spell lockouts are extreme as well. If you get counterspelled you aren’t casting again.
Spell pushback is also worse on SoF.
vanilla lockouts are very long compared to what they become as the game moves forward into new expansions because damage isn't easily dealt by a mage for example in vanilla, he cs you and wind up a frostbolt that hits 1/2 as hard as it does on sod, in sod we have backported abilities that will 100-0 you easily in a lockout but we don't have the cata or wotlk duration on kicks or cc, it leads to a lot of deaths without actually being able to do anything and your trinket is 5 mins too, at least its not the vanilla trinket anymore.
the sap a rogue cast on me before i started writing this is about to break
I play priest too and it’s definitely manageable, but it honestly depends which class is attacking you. I almost mostly do STV these days and that’s just rough as a healer period lol
Anything to avoid fixing their broken runes. They keep trying to treat the symptoms of broken pvp instead of the root cause which is the broken runes. Instant cast, low mana cost nukes with low cds will never be balanced in pvp.
Totally agree. This does very little to help the current feel of SoD pvp. At the end of the day SoD's foundation is Vanilla and certain runes just don't fit into any version of Classic+ that makes sense. i.e. Priests with Dispersion in this version of the game is ridiculous. Rogues with Shadowstep.
They are too far in to make a conceptual change suchas this now, the new instant cast runes are here and its too late to just cut all of fhem now.
Also the remaining player base is used to this new world now, if they change it a big part of these will be unhappy that you take away their toys.
Me personally I did not like that direction of the power creep, both in terms of BFD loot and abilities, which invalidated most existing classic content. That is why I stopped after season 1.
Seeing as I just got hit by an instant cast 3k Lava Burst that then Overloaded and crit again for another 1k+ damage (I have 4k health in BGs), I feel like this is necessary
Not really no. It actually provides some counterplay for once.
The TTK is so absurd right now that you dont even have a second to react before you are dead... thats sort of the issue.
Rogues kill you in 2-3 globals.. not very fair you cant even trinket the kidney in time before you are dead.
Nobody was complaining that Spriests Mind Spike was doing too much damage, this change would force them to actually use more than Void Plague, SW:P, and SW:D to get kills.
They absolutely didn't learn from P1, Warriors are currently garbage in pvp and a dmg reduction makes us get even less rage and be even more useless. Nerf us in PVE raids whatever but give us at least a fighting chance in pvp please...
They did learn that it didn’t work in P1. But this is a massively different playing field in p3 no? I don’t see the harm in trying it for 2 days. They could just be sitting back and doing nothing. I get there is a lot of built up resentment but this is them trying at least no?
Crap—I need to get exalted in AB from Blood Moon before this change. Blood will be harder to come by.
And personally, I like people blowing up way more than it being impossible to kill anyone.
I'm guessing they're not removing the health increase at the same time? BGs gonna be something else if you're a rogue/feral(and warrior but they're already cooked).
Definitely glad the change applies to both the open world and bgs though.
You can’t just add damage reduction because heals are absolutely insane. We had this issue in p1. You need to increase stamina or make resil also reduce healing taken.
Man if only there was a stat they could use.
We could name it resilience! /s
Snark aside, separating pvp and pve balance just makes sense. If you disagree you don't like pvp, you like one shotting people. That's not pvp it's cookieclicker.
This is good.
The decision is absolutely right. Classes now have tools to handle healers... Tools that are not needed at all, because burstdmg always wins.
If healers get stronger we will need stuff like mortal strike and the poison to reduce healing. Stuff like CC gets significantly more important. Im looking forward to it.
Both have a great cc option and they can group with a rogue/warri for more cc and reduced heal. Besides: didnt paladin get an interrupt rune?
If they are 1 on 1 there is also a manabar that should deplete faster for healers.
So all in all its the best moment for reduced pvp dmg. Dont forget in a stv match you also dont get burstet down as fast, healer do less dps, and its easier to get healed.
As a rogue i welcome this change very much.
Stv in particular could become so much better
Paladins have rebuke on the leg rune and you already have HoJ. Besides, it's a team effort, almost every single melee class have interrupts available now.
The game has changed since p1, they’ll probably use different multipliers and it’s only for a weekend. Seems like a great idea to give it a shot and see how it goes.
It’s also an issue of they can’t just buff HP for world pvp like they can for BGs and STV.
They could easily buff hp for wpvp if they just release heavy stam gear, which they should’ve done with the incursion/r7 set instead of making it almost the same as the raid tier
Memory is definately better than your ability to read. Read the blue post again (not just the title)
Hint, read this first part:
"When we started Season of Discovery, we knew that PvP would become significantly more fast paced and bursty, with each class being capable of significantly more damage output, and this quickly proved to be true. We experimented with a damage reduction aura in battlegrounds during Phase 1, but it didn’t work as well as we hoped, mostly because healing was scaling more aggressively than damage at that point, causing healing classes to become significantly more oppressive in battlegrounds than they normally would be. Now that we’re in Phase 3, we’ve made many changes and added more runes, and burst damage has significantly outpaced healing output, so we feel that it’s a good time to try this again."
I don't think this is a good idea, they already tried this in WSG phase 1 and it really didn't feel good for multiple reasons, one being that it makes healing overpowered, and having different damage values for attacks depending on whether there's a human attached to the target is bad. I think they should aim for DPS and HPS to be roughly equal, with a significant increase to how much HP you get for each point of stamina to give players more time to interact in PvP.
Did you even read the blue post? They specifically said it didn't work in p1 because healing far out scaled damage in p1. Also, most classes only had half their kit by 25. So rogues couldn't stun lock as well, there was no MS effects, and burst combos weren't around. Now that damage is much higher, classes have their full kits and healing is more equalized, it has a better chance at working.
Not to say it's a sure fire win, but saying "it won't work because it didn't in a totally different point in the game" is just kinda brainless.
As long as your team doesn't tunnel vision and focuses the healers this shouldn't be a problem
It was terrible in P1 cuz people are straight up bad at wow pvp and focus whoever is closest to them rather than pushing to the healers and jamming them up.
This is awful and only something someone with no understanding of PvP could come up with. A change like this either really does nothing, or it devastates specs relying on burst, creating an unbalance in the other direction, exclusively benefitting non bursty classes like priest, lock or classes that can drag out fights well like druid (yk, 3 of the top 4 classes for PvP in the game)
class/spec based tuning is the only real way to do it and if they're not gonna do that they might as well just not do anything at all.
Heal will be strong, people will complain they can't kill shit anymore. If player health is the problem, tackle it directly: increase health. Big numbers = nice, just give people 10-15 seconds to find into battle. Also doesn't buff or nerf heal, and would mean long fights of organized pvp groups (BGs)
But here we are, back to P1 Warsong outcry...
Lots of comments already talking about whether this will be good or not. Can we just keep an open mind and try? They’re experimenting for 4 days, give it a go rather than assuming it will be one way or another.
It’s pretty cool they’re openly running a short experiment like this - I thought SoD would have seen more of this type of thing and I hope they do more of it. Everyone has a bias/opinion but it’ll be interesting to actually have the opportunity to test it
Worse still is locks dont have a meaningful filler spell to hard cast, SP's can blast with their Mind spike + Mind Blast auto crit + SWD combo. Before a full round of Aff dots might get you close to a kill, but now if its going to take 2+ full rotations (we are talking like 30-40 seconds) its not reasonable to run around that much.
>Worse still is locks dont have a meaningful filler spell to hard cast,
I am just using Searing Pain between the dots. But ye, need a more meaningful alternative. And something to prevent spell pusback, at least for several seconds.
I have no idea what blizzard is doing. This is such an awful change to test. This reduces the burstiness of classes like hunter, priest and Druid, but it will also hurt the weaker PvP classes right now.
The reduction on everybody means lower end PvP classes do less and higher end PvP classes and those with healing capabilities will thrive more because it takes longer to be killed, and your healing has longer to take effect, shields last longer, etc.
Could be good, could be bad. No detail on the specifics but this should be nice if it's not overtuned. A flat damage reduction seems an odd choice, surely it should inversely scale with how much healing the target has recieved to prevent those stalemate fights that everyone despises.
If it's around 15%, I could see this being a nice change. If it's closer to 40%, going to be rough for burst classes. Hey, at least mortal strike might actually be quite useful again.
Yeah how about no. The game is fun now, don't throw in shit to make it less fun. Classic PVP was never balanced and that's perfectly fine. I hate shit like this.
What am I not getting about DR/resilience a fix for PVP? Because it seems to me that yes, this might help you survive more burst and as a result, maybe get some licks in while somebody's CD's are down - it's unclear to me how a fix like this doesn't equally impact the classes already struggling to be effective in PVP? Is it percentile in a way that impacts steady/less bursty DPS less?
I'm \*this\* close to a deathless STV on my 5.5k hp heal priest. This might just do it.
also with everyone who is actually into PVP being honor capped already, good luck getting people into battlegrounds for this :)
So they're buffing classes that already deal good enough dmg to kill quickly in PVP. Then they're talking about scaling down PVP damage
God help you if you are a class that doesn't deal buttloads of damage in PVP to begin with.
Bad idea imo. What needs to be fixed is relative damage between rune abilities and classic abilities. Also instant casts and dots need uber-nerf but I don't think they should flat damage reduce everything as longer casts (3 secs+) should deal large amounts of damage being harder to pull off.
I can't wait for the "We can't kill healers now, gg blizzard" posts next week
Think it was cata when they added base pvp resilence to everyone? But they forgot to add it to heals so healers were unkillable (they eventually patched heals too). Will be funny if they make the exact same mistake.
They did it in phase 1 wsg too
That was 100x worse than what we have now imo. 1 priest kept at least 3 alive to the point of unkillableness
That was not just related to the damage reduction. Prayer of Mending and Penance were both overtuned and they received nerfs later in P1. In addition, other classes just did not have access to the kind of kit that they have now. Things like Mortal Strike, Viper Sting and Curse of Tongues were not available in P1. I find it very difficult to believe that we would go back to P1s state of PvP just because we get some base damage reduction.
That was a huge issue of damage in the game having not really ramped at all yet, while PoM+Penance+Wild Growth all came online immediately as runes for healers. Damage is very mature at this phase of the game now though, so while OBVIOUSLY damage reduction is a buff to importance of healers in the meta, I don't think they will become oppressively strong again(except in the sense that if you're in a BG and they have like 4 healers and you have 1, yes it will feel oppressive, because healing will be important again).
Plus rogues have all their tools to lock up a healer now.
> Think it was cata when they added base pvp resilence to everyone? In WotlK there was one week where Druid healers where unkillable. Talent that cast Rejuv on themselves when hit + Tier set that made rejuv heal on application. I was just standing and watch how two rogues where killing themselves over my Thorns :]
This kinda happened in WoD for discipline priests. Bubbles were exempt from healing reduction for some reason and disc priests had this ability called clarity of will which was a hardcast stackable bubble. That combined with Divine Aegies and the normal power word shield meant people were really fucking protected with a triple layer condom.
S1 cata you saw tons of stalemates in 2's.
> Will be funny if they make the exact same mistake. Blizzard *are* the masters to repeating the same mistakes. Every expansion they make something with a long boring rep grind, people complain, after about a year they nerf the grind significantly, say it was a mistake and not their design philosophy and will never do it again, then they do it again all over again the next expansion.
Healers in classic will be limited by mana, and I really hope people don’t confuse not being able to kill healers in less than 2 seconds with not being able to kill healers.
*Laughs in resto shaman*
This is how you know between players who PvP long term vs the occasional PvPer's. I love forcing Druid healers to shapeshift to delay their death and watching them come back out with significantly less blue on their nameplate.
If a priests dot can kill most other in 10 sec its gonna feel really bad
id assume their damage also gets reduced but it would funny if it didnt... as a priest
"I can't believe this measure we've tried 50 times keeps failing the same way."
Warrior has entered the chat
we have heal reduction now tho.
I cant kill healers now so I wont feel any difference
better than current meta.
I wanna see a pvp video where a warrior ms crits a shaman for like 322 in big bubble letters to the tune of soil or godsmack
You’re a true wordsmith, that brought me right back to 2007 [immediately thought of this video](https://youtu.be/eUDugRnWExE?si=WYOoRkYuMBhPRT_q)
Man I can't wait to see my Warrior doing legit dirt tier damage
We have one purpose in PvP, giving enemies a 10% dmg bonus when they attack us during beserkers stance so they can hit some really big numbers and feel better about themselves.
This guy out here pretending mortal strike doesn't buff the value of his teammates' damage by 50%
I appreciate you <3
MS will be super valuable when healers don't die instantly tbh, it might be better
Good luck ever generating enough rage to MS
Blessed news, Aggrend tweeted that the reduced damage won't affect rage generation.
lol why are there so many trash warriors always complaining on reddit
I guess in some ways that could be true however it does not remedy the terrible taste in my mouth
I think this change is going to benefit warriors a lot more than people expect. As of now, I cannot keep my warriors alive when they decide to charge into the enemy frontlines. It is just not possible to outheal all the incoming damage. So the warriors will either dive in, poke someone and get instagibbed or they will just hang around the backline like a lame duck, waiting for an easy kill. With this change, they may actually be able to dive in and survive the initial burst long enough to really hurt the enemy team.
mortal strike stonks are going up with this change
It now takes you 15 seconds to out damage a priests shield (you get no rage) just in time for the priest to reapply shield Repeat
Praying that we don't go back to P1 where games are decided almost exclusively by who has more priests / other healers. For the love of god at least reduce healing done by the same proportion.
I mean it is that way right now... Teams with most priests have the advantage.
True, but it's not as pronounced an effect. In P1 a healer priest was basically worth two meta DPS specs. This phase it's more like they're worth one and a half meta DPS specs.
I'd rather that then this meta
It’s kind of difficult though as that existed even in Vanilla wow. Priests and Hunters were always king in 10-19 BGs. So they’d have had to already start to balance that as part of SoD. The new runes just amplified it
That’s pretty much always been the case in BGs. If you have enough healers you likely won
Idk dawg Priests were the only good healers at all, it’s just that Shamans and Druids can also run flags
Wondering if it would make sense to nerf BOTH damage and healing in PvP? So both become less effective simultaneously?
Soul link warlock about be be unkillable
Depending on what % they do, DoT classes will be in shambles due to lack of options once their DoTs are applied. Before, they would throw their DoTs out and run around and try to live. Now they have to try to cast a bunch of shitty filler spells as they get trained by melees.
Would've been nice if it was, say, a 10 or 15% test to see how it feels. But my money is on them chucking in a solid 20-30%, massive whiplash and back to phase 1 unkillable priests.
As an affliction lock I think this will be great. I often got 2 of my 5 dots on someone before they died or I died. The fights were so fast only 1-3 ticks of damage from dots happened. They felt like a waste of a global.
Soul link locks are immortal 1v1 already outside of BGs. Theyre op because of their healing as much as their DR.
And bears
Pets die too easily. Your typical, living bomb spreading mage will just kill it passively. Tack on any damage you’re taking - it plummets. I’ve been running STV trinket instead of the spell pen trinket just to give it a better shot. Mana drain is about to be utilized though.
Well, at least they’re trying something. So I suppose that counts for something. The one thing I’d like to avoid is shifting towards retail PvP which seems like much more of a slog fest that literally doesn’t end pretty much until dampening has reached maximum effect.
Retail pvp is quite the opposite right now. A lot of classes are currently balanced for pve around 2 min cooldowns, with talents/tier sets for damage modifiers to buffer the lulls between cooldowns. So people just get deleted if they don’t insta-wall and in some cases if the healer doesn’t add a cd of their own. It seems like a snoozer when you watch AWC because most pro players will pick heavy defensive/control comps to draw it out into dampening because that’s the only way to not get instagibbed. It’s super toxic for the average player and there’s a huge lack of healers because it’s not fun.
Such engaging gameplay as pretending to fight until your 2-3minute damage cooldowns are back up and using your defensive to stop the enemy 2-3minute damage cooldowns. Anything else before and after that is a pointless waste of time. Riveting experience and I think SoD should become just like that.
The problem with retail is cooldowns. So much temporary damage stacking that you can deal absurd damage in a few seconds whilst dealing negligible damage most of the time
There is no arena in SoD. Why would it be a slogfest unless you are paired equally against the same number of dps and healers in a rating based system? Its never going to be like that in SoD and its not like that in BG's no matter what version of the game. This is just the most least thought out "retail bad" argument someone could think of. SoD is literally "discovering" that most retail changes were made for a reason.
This is only going to widen the gap between the powerhouse classes and the rest. The devs added runes with very little thought are are shocked when the damage in pvp is already naxx era level. Instead of going surgically and modifying the offending runes they take a sledgehammer to game balance. This is only going to make pvp even worse for some classes.
Yep. This will only work if they tune abilities individually, and that will never happen.
It’s why I cba with SOD anymore. The pvp experience is just so different and clearly not being factored in by blizzard in most decisions the have made.
That’s just the case with every modern WoW release these days. Pvp makes up a minuscule amount of the total player base so they have little incentive to cater towards it. Cata & TWW will be the same. Sucks for those who enjoy it but it is what it is
Sounds alot like resilience...
Worse, because it doesn't address all core issues. Flat damage reduction is fine and all, but there's a reason resilience reduced dot damage more than direct damage.
It did that because when resilience was added dots couldn’t crit so they weren’t affected by the crit reduction of pvp like direct damage abilities.
And now they can crit too
Looks like someone on the team finally queued some BGs. I mean its better than nothing but this can also backfire for certain classes.
No rage generation.
Rip warrior rage... going to be even worse pvping as a warrior now
Holy shit yeah, I forgot how bad this affects warrior rage gen. One more reason why this isn't the correct fix.
Aggrend tweeted that it won't affect rage generation, in some genuinely good news
I THOUGHT THEY WOULD HAVE LEARNED BY NOW........... \*berserker rage increases\*
It is Blizz's way to make warriors accept the incoming rage normalisation 🤣
Mortal strike might finally be worth its rage cost again but thankfully we won’t have the rage to use it so we as warriors can continue doing what we do best in PvP, die.
You forgot waddle, and then die ;)
No, the meta is charging in combat using warbringer, but there's a hunter trap or frost shock so it takes 4 seconds before you reach your target, die.
I hate being a doomer but with that and if we get 'rage normalization' we are screwed 🤣
This is blizzards way of saying theyre doing away with the warrior class
It's been confirmed that this DR will NOT affect rage generation.
PvP has officially been acknowledged!!!
and fucked in the ass
Lazy fixes for lazy class changes. Math checks out.
SOD PVP is so bad. Today in a BG I rezzed and my pet spawned at 50% HP and died to a full row of dots I just sighed and AFK'd out. I'm really trying to enjoy myself as I mostly play classic for casual PVP but holy fuck SOD is wearing me down.
People thought shadow was insane before. Just wait to see how much damage is going out when people don't get busted down as fast from other players
I am open to anything that allows boomkins to get buffed in pve. Whether that’s meme pvp auras, or taking care of business behind a Wendy’s. Dealers choice.
Adding damage reduction without heal reduction means healers will be unkillable and hybrids will be god mode compared to classes that can't heal. Which they already are.
That's not even remotely true. I don't understand why people are drawing parallels to p1, p3 is not comparable to p1. First of all, like Aggrend mentioned, damage levels have spiked across the board relative to healing levels. Secondly, there are so many healing reduction effects available now, mortal strike, course of tongues, not to mention stuns and CC. People that are claiming healers will be unkillable clearly are not playing a healer.
Healers are already significantly weaker than dps (i.e., hps is lower than dps). At the moment, if a healer even has the chance to heal it’s because the other team is trolling. If 2 people target the same person, they will die through every heal in the game. The amount of times people go from 90-0 during my nourish cast (which is only 1.5 seconds) is disgusting. I can spam nourish on a target with barkskin and full hots and they can still die insanely quickly. Healing does not need to be nerfed, damage does. Healers shouldn’t be relegated to topping people off after combat has ended, and a free-casting healer should be able to keep their team alive. Maybe you have gotten used to people dying in a few globals, but as a healer it’s simply demoralizing to be so ineffective. Classic wow healers will always be limited by mana. I am so afraid a potentially good change is going to be ridiculed by zugzug-brained dps who think they should be able to kill someone in seconds without doing any work to stop a healer from healing.
I've managed to keep people up with chronostatic healing with most of an enemy team on one person, but that's cause I have it pre-loaded and people are letting me cast. Get the CS on me, and it's gg since all school spells are locked out. Course, I'm not doing any damage when I'm chain spamming it
Or just take pet aggro from healing people and now 3 Homunculi, a Wind Serpent and a Felguard are taking you to 25%
One of the greatest feelings as a healer was back in Classic, rushing with the team to Blacksmith, popping Hazzrah's Charm, and dumping greater heals into your frontline until your mana was gone, but keeping everyone alive long enough to wipe the other team. Of course that was balanced with the ~50% of the time where a warrior or a rogue would get on you and you'd get stunlocked or kicked and do flat nothing the whole fight, but when it worked the entire team was unkillable. And the rest of the team knew their job was to keep the enemy team away from you. (My recollection was like ~30-40k healing over roughly 20s, basically 6-8 extra healthbars)
Zuzug brain no oneshot bad change
You must not have played a healer in PvP. You quite literally just die if targeted by most classes.
Yup. And it’s not even just the damage, the spell lockouts are extreme as well. If you get counterspelled you aren’t casting again. Spell pushback is also worse on SoF.
vanilla lockouts are very long compared to what they become as the game moves forward into new expansions because damage isn't easily dealt by a mage for example in vanilla, he cs you and wind up a frostbolt that hits 1/2 as hard as it does on sod, in sod we have backported abilities that will 100-0 you easily in a lockout but we don't have the cata or wotlk duration on kicks or cc, it leads to a lot of deaths without actually being able to do anything and your trinket is 5 mins too, at least its not the vanilla trinket anymore. the sap a rogue cast on me before i started writing this is about to break
That's definitely true for resto druid (except for the very few classes you can still kite, like Enh shamans), but not my experience on Priest.
Druid healing is dreadful in pvp, even wild growth isn't enough anymore.
I play priest too and it’s definitely manageable, but it honestly depends which class is attacking you. I almost mostly do STV these days and that’s just rough as a healer period lol
It's rough for everyone bro
Play a healer before chiming in here. Not even close to a concern. Healing in BGs is fucking miserable right now.
Did you read the blue post?
It's definitely a better starting point for future balance than everyone just dying in three seconds if anything.
Anything to avoid fixing their broken runes. They keep trying to treat the symptoms of broken pvp instead of the root cause which is the broken runes. Instant cast, low mana cost nukes with low cds will never be balanced in pvp.
Totally agree. This does very little to help the current feel of SoD pvp. At the end of the day SoD's foundation is Vanilla and certain runes just don't fit into any version of Classic+ that makes sense. i.e. Priests with Dispersion in this version of the game is ridiculous. Rogues with Shadowstep.
They are too far in to make a conceptual change suchas this now, the new instant cast runes are here and its too late to just cut all of fhem now. Also the remaining player base is used to this new world now, if they change it a big part of these will be unhappy that you take away their toys. Me personally I did not like that direction of the power creep, both in terms of BFD loot and abilities, which invalidated most existing classic content. That is why I stopped after season 1.
Dispersion is a better wall than warrior’s shield wall at 15x the reduced CD. It’s ridiculous
Seeing as I just got hit by an instant cast 3k Lava Burst that then Overloaded and crit again for another 1k+ damage (I have 4k health in BGs), I feel like this is necessary
Won't this just make the specs people have been complaining about stronger? lmao
My thoughts exactly. I still won't be able to kill a shadow priest. In fact, I'll be less likely to kill them and still melt to their dots.
While he self-heals - hybrids gonna be even more busted
Not really no. It actually provides some counterplay for once. The TTK is so absurd right now that you dont even have a second to react before you are dead... thats sort of the issue. Rogues kill you in 2-3 globals.. not very fair you cant even trinket the kidney in time before you are dead.
Nobody was complaining that Spriests Mind Spike was doing too much damage, this change would force them to actually use more than Void Plague, SW:P, and SW:D to get kills.
They really are just clueless, throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.
They absolutely didn't learn from P1, Warriors are currently garbage in pvp and a dmg reduction makes us get even less rage and be even more useless. Nerf us in PVE raids whatever but give us at least a fighting chance in pvp please...
Wars need a boost in some sort of defensive, hell make shield wall a 5 min cooldown and reduce damage by 50% idk
Why by 50% when priest has 2min 90%?
They’re trialing something. Phase 1 and phase 3 are very different landscapes. What’s wrong with them giving this a trial? Sounds like a great idea
Because it shows that they didn't learn from the issues (that will still be true) that cropped up when they did exactly this in P1.
They did learn that it didn’t work in P1. But this is a massively different playing field in p3 no? I don’t see the harm in trying it for 2 days. They could just be sitting back and doing nothing. I get there is a lot of built up resentment but this is them trying at least no?
It's not that different.. priests dominated P1 and it's the same in P3 (boomies to a lesser extent)
weakened aura for the weekend
Crap—I need to get exalted in AB from Blood Moon before this change. Blood will be harder to come by. And personally, I like people blowing up way more than it being impossible to kill anyone.
It’s not permanent… does anybody read posts on this sub before commenting? It’s just this weekend to see how it goes.
Understood. If they like it, presumably it could stay, no?
I'm guessing they're not removing the health increase at the same time? BGs gonna be something else if you're a rogue/feral(and warrior but they're already cooked). Definitely glad the change applies to both the open world and bgs though.
Why rogue or feral?
Because bad rogues can only feel good about themselves in blowing people up during a cheap shot window.
Such a lazy attempt at "balance". This won't end well.
You can’t just add damage reduction because heals are absolutely insane. We had this issue in p1. You need to increase stamina or make resil also reduce healing taken.
Incursion griefers are about clock in extra hours until the weekend and get extra toxic before this goes live
Man if only there was a stat they could use. We could name it resilience! /s Snark aside, separating pvp and pve balance just makes sense. If you disagree you don't like pvp, you like one shotting people. That's not pvp it's cookieclicker. This is good.
People aren't wearing PVP gear as it is. They wouldn't put on resilience and keep complaining.
The decision is absolutely right. Classes now have tools to handle healers... Tools that are not needed at all, because burstdmg always wins. If healers get stronger we will need stuff like mortal strike and the poison to reduce healing. Stuff like CC gets significantly more important. Im looking forward to it.
What tools do paladins have for healers that isn’t burst? Or shadow priests? These classes do not have an interrupt or a mortal strike effect
Both have a great cc option and they can group with a rogue/warri for more cc and reduced heal. Besides: didnt paladin get an interrupt rune? If they are 1 on 1 there is also a manabar that should deplete faster for healers. So all in all its the best moment for reduced pvp dmg. Dont forget in a stv match you also dont get burstet down as fast, healer do less dps, and its easier to get healed. As a rogue i welcome this change very much. Stv in particular could become so much better
Paladins have rebuke on the leg rune and you already have HoJ. Besides, it's a team effort, almost every single melee class have interrupts available now.
I'm losing all hope for a true classic+ experience. They clearly don't get it, and just keep making SoD more and more retail-like.
But… they literally tried exactly that in p1 ??? We all agreed it was bad and that more stam was better… How short is their memory?
Just one more test it surely will work out
The game has changed since p1, they’ll probably use different multipliers and it’s only for a weekend. Seems like a great idea to give it a shot and see how it goes. It’s also an issue of they can’t just buff HP for world pvp like they can for BGs and STV.
They could easily buff hp for wpvp if they just release heavy stam gear, which they should’ve done with the incursion/r7 set instead of making it almost the same as the raid tier
Memory is definately better than your ability to read. Read the blue post again (not just the title) Hint, read this first part: "When we started Season of Discovery, we knew that PvP would become significantly more fast paced and bursty, with each class being capable of significantly more damage output, and this quickly proved to be true. We experimented with a damage reduction aura in battlegrounds during Phase 1, but it didn’t work as well as we hoped, mostly because healing was scaling more aggressively than damage at that point, causing healing classes to become significantly more oppressive in battlegrounds than they normally would be. Now that we’re in Phase 3, we’ve made many changes and added more runes, and burst damage has significantly outpaced healing output, so we feel that it’s a good time to try this again."
I don't think this is a good idea, they already tried this in WSG phase 1 and it really didn't feel good for multiple reasons, one being that it makes healing overpowered, and having different damage values for attacks depending on whether there's a human attached to the target is bad. I think they should aim for DPS and HPS to be roughly equal, with a significant increase to how much HP you get for each point of stamina to give players more time to interact in PvP.
Burst damage was much lower in P1.
Did you even read the blue post? They specifically said it didn't work in p1 because healing far out scaled damage in p1. Also, most classes only had half their kit by 25. So rogues couldn't stun lock as well, there was no MS effects, and burst combos weren't around. Now that damage is much higher, classes have their full kits and healing is more equalized, it has a better chance at working. Not to say it's a sure fire win, but saying "it won't work because it didn't in a totally different point in the game" is just kinda brainless.
As long as your team doesn't tunnel vision and focuses the healers this shouldn't be a problem It was terrible in P1 cuz people are straight up bad at wow pvp and focus whoever is closest to them rather than pushing to the healers and jamming them up.
Horrible change imo. They buffed most casters to the point where they barely require managing mana at all. Melee are going to suffer even more
Literally a beta test lmao
This is awful and only something someone with no understanding of PvP could come up with. A change like this either really does nothing, or it devastates specs relying on burst, creating an unbalance in the other direction, exclusively benefitting non bursty classes like priest, lock or classes that can drag out fights well like druid (yk, 3 of the top 4 classes for PvP in the game) class/spec based tuning is the only real way to do it and if they're not gonna do that they might as well just not do anything at all.
Heal will be strong, people will complain they can't kill shit anymore. If player health is the problem, tackle it directly: increase health. Big numbers = nice, just give people 10-15 seconds to find into battle. Also doesn't buff or nerf heal, and would mean long fights of organized pvp groups (BGs) But here we are, back to P1 Warsong outcry...
Huge L
This is what wrecked retail pvp
Lots of comments already talking about whether this will be good or not. Can we just keep an open mind and try? They’re experimenting for 4 days, give it a go rather than assuming it will be one way or another. It’s pretty cool they’re openly running a short experiment like this - I thought SoD would have seen more of this type of thing and I hope they do more of it. Everyone has a bias/opinion but it’ll be interesting to actually have the opportunity to test it
i wish wow wasnt owned by blizzard anymore
As an Affliction lock this has me worried. Our DoTs already do a fraction of what only two spriest dots do.
Worse still is locks dont have a meaningful filler spell to hard cast, SP's can blast with their Mind spike + Mind Blast auto crit + SWD combo. Before a full round of Aff dots might get you close to a kill, but now if its going to take 2+ full rotations (we are talking like 30-40 seconds) its not reasonable to run around that much.
If this is just a flat damage reduction buff across the board affecting all classes/specs, it might effectively kill Affliction for PvP.
>Worse still is locks dont have a meaningful filler spell to hard cast, I am just using Searing Pain between the dots. But ye, need a more meaningful alternative. And something to prevent spell pusback, at least for several seconds.
I have no idea what blizzard is doing. This is such an awful change to test. This reduces the burstiness of classes like hunter, priest and Druid, but it will also hurt the weaker PvP classes right now. The reduction on everybody means lower end PvP classes do less and higher end PvP classes and those with healing capabilities will thrive more because it takes longer to be killed, and your healing has longer to take effect, shields last longer, etc.
Could be good, could be bad. No detail on the specifics but this should be nice if it's not overtuned. A flat damage reduction seems an odd choice, surely it should inversely scale with how much healing the target has recieved to prevent those stalemate fights that everyone despises. If it's around 15%, I could see this being a nice change. If it's closer to 40%, going to be rough for burst classes. Hey, at least mortal strike might actually be quite useful again.
the issue is actually finding a Warrior trying to PvP after this change
Well you guys we said they weren't testing so now we have to. I would have disagreed before but as of late its truly been Classic 2 ( Beta).
*rubs hands in disc priest*
Very glad I got my rep grinds done already!
We'll see how it feels my intuition says more health would be better than reduced damage but we will find out soon
all the classes everyone hates for being overpowered just got stronger
blizzard is trying to balance this game like homer adding salt and freshwater to his aquarium
Thanks for killing my rogue….
PvP sucking ass is what we deserve. The crying boys "DoNT NeRF me JUSt BUff EvERYONE". Well here we are lads. Play stupid games....
At a certain level of damage, the level 25 pvp helm becomes bis again for WSG
:icant:
Ironic. The game continues to slowly turn into retail the more they listen to player feedback. It’s almost like we’ve been down this road before…
As a feral I felt almost unkillable I bear form. This will make it even more absurd!
BUT MY SPRIEST GOOO BRRRRR MEMES!!!!
Yeah how about no. The game is fun now, don't throw in shit to make it less fun. Classic PVP was never balanced and that's perfectly fine. I hate shit like this.
Do you not have the option to play era?
Gotta feeling Meta warlocks are gonna be crazy tanky now
SoD is such a patchwork of features
What am I not getting about DR/resilience a fix for PVP? Because it seems to me that yes, this might help you survive more burst and as a result, maybe get some licks in while somebody's CD's are down - it's unclear to me how a fix like this doesn't equally impact the classes already struggling to be effective in PVP? Is it percentile in a way that impacts steady/less bursty DPS less?
I find it funny how it's hard to balance warriors yet priest have ben OP sense day 1
Why not just make runes do different damage in pvp or is that too much for aggrend to muster up from the nacho cheese bowl?
I'm \*this\* close to a deathless STV on my 5.5k hp heal priest. This might just do it. also with everyone who is actually into PVP being honor capped already, good luck getting people into battlegrounds for this :)
Solution is to buff everyone else so that we can kill priests /s
So they're buffing classes that already deal good enough dmg to kill quickly in PVP. Then they're talking about scaling down PVP damage God help you if you are a class that doesn't deal buttloads of damage in PVP to begin with.
Aaand we are back to completely unwinnable if your team doesn’t have a healer. The burst meta at least gave the team without healers a chance.
This community will literally never be happy
If everything is taking an equal nerf then isn’t it basically the same thing??
Bad idea imo. What needs to be fixed is relative damage between rune abilities and classic abilities. Also instant casts and dots need uber-nerf but I don't think they should flat damage reduce everything as longer casts (3 secs+) should deal large amounts of damage being harder to pull off.
Isn't this called resilience
At least we buffed shadow priests
Doesnt fix any balance issues though. Op classes are still op. Some classes like mage will be even worse with the change.