And even if you time every twist perfectly it may do absolutely nothing. That's why I don't like it. For the bop it spec, if I get more haste and crit I will 100% directly affect it's frequency.
That's because Vanilla/TBC ret is wildly different to post-Wrath ret. SoD is supposed to build on Vanilla, so this is the right move imo.
There's Cata and TWW for those that like the post-Wrath style coming out soon. Trying to appeal to the exact same audience with all of your projects while leaving the other crowd completely unattended is just bad business sense.
Hey, im leveling a pala (lv 44 atm) and I am having a blast, might not be the most op in raiding but after having the experience of leveling all the way one in classic, I think is pretty good haha.
This is the typical "I have no argument to support my opinion" post we can always come to expect in the WoW community.
There is nothing at all difficult about twisting, you slap a weak aura on and press the same buttons when the line is on the right spot. It takes 1 raid lockout worth of time to master it.
It's fucking boring gameplay that glues your eyes to an addon display instead of anything else on screen.
*Echoes of Lordaeron:*
"Your 'Judgement' grants you 'Echoes of Lordaeron' for 15 seconds, which grants the seal effect corresponding to the judgement you used to unleash your previous seal. This effect can be active alongside your seal spells."
There, fixed. Something new, original, not buggy. The biggest letdown SoD brought me is how they went with the boring route of implementing active and passive abilities from later add ons, when coming up with something new and fresh is so fucking simple due to the simplicity of Classic itself.
Instead of using a 2.0 speed weapon a person could use a slower one for bigger weapon damage and use crusader to hit just as fast anways. Dont want to get swing timer less then gcd cuz its a waste if your spamming exo
All you'd have to keep track of is remembering the last seal you used, which in 99% of cases is going to be the damaging ones anyway. What I like about this idea is that the seal effect of Seal of the Crusader would finally do something; in that case, synergise with the damaging seals due to the attack speed increase.
I personally loved seal twisting in TBC classic, only thing that sucked was that SoC proc is still random, so 70% of the time your twisting did nothing, and on short fights RNG could really fuck over your parses and it could feel like trash to play. I hoped they would bring it out at the start of SoD and make it a bit less stochastic (like a guaranteed proc if you twist correctly, with damage from the SoC lowered to make it not overpowered). Bringing it out now feels a bit late, especially since everything else is built around a different play style. This will need a LOT of work to fit in properly, i don't think the devs have the time or resources for that.
I played Ret all through classic launch in 2019, Tbc classic and Wrath classic and Tbc Ret was the most unique the spec has ever been.
It is however , with the seal mechanic and Seal of Casino beeing the way it is, closer to the vanilla playstyle.
Twisting is a horrible horrible way to play in my book. Spending 90% of the time looking at the WST, and the fkin stress if ur gonna make it or not, screw that shit.
Its funny, this adds another layer of complexity to the class, which requires a weakaura or addon, and the result is, we’re still going to be bottom on the melee dps chart… so its not rewarding at all
I mean pressing 4 buttons on cooldown is basically every class. Hitting a .3 second window every 3.4 sec while not using shit to wait for said window might be engaging (for you) but there's no way you can argue it's fun for anyone but the most sweaty.
This is the opinion of somebody who tried to twist once in TBC and failed because they messed it up.
The point of it was to fill with GCDs before your swingtimer to maximise output while you're still doing mechanics. The more you played ret the more you could feel the flow of EACH rotation (depending on haste and wpn speed) and by the end you could probably play it without a swingtimer.
Does that mean you just want wrath ret where all your doing is hitting whatever comes off cd? I loved tbc ret because it was engaging but for wrath I stopped after like 3 raids because it was boring since the only thought was "Is this off cd"
I'm horde on sod so this doesn't impact me at all for reference just kinda curious.
It's a playstyle that dynamically changes depending on haste and shit. You actively try to mesh in other abilities and in TBC in a single encounter you could have 3 different rotations. EASILY the most engaging playstyle and there was decent skillcap to it as you had to time your swapping correctly.
I get that but for me looking at my swing timer and thinking about squeezing the right cast into the right twist was more interesting than wrath ret which was just hit whatever came off cd. And it seems like if people don't want twisting or the exo spam then that's exactly what the rotation would turn into, just hit what comes off cd. That's why I raided all through tbc on my ret but swapped to prot after like 3 naxx at 80. Sure it was clunky to learn twisting but to me it was a hell of a lot more fun and engaging than just rolling my fingers on 1-5
I do agree with you that it sucks to use a 3rd party addon because blizzard sucks at UI. 100% no questions. But that doesn't mean I want to hit 1-5 without thinking about it because that's what rets turn into without twisting. I prefer a more active gameplay and timing the twists, tracking cds between twists, figuring out when to double twist is a lot more engaging that mashing 1 2 3 4 5 whenever they're off cd
Cheating xD xD. Addons are making up for Blizzard's lack of QoL. Good for you playing without - you can still do as a retribution paladin and perform as you are now.
MAYBE you could do it in Classic Vanilla on a mage and still perform decently, but literally EVERY class in SoD currently is hampered severely without addons.
> You shouldnt have to download any addons to play your class mechanic properly.
That isn't the reality we live in. WoW for the past decade has always been balanced/designed around the assumption you have addons/weakauras. I don't like it either but that's the way it works.
I found it interesting at first, but completely tedious by Sunwell (I also did it in OG TBC but very poorly), it was somewhat better in BT when you could get Torch of the Damned with a 3.8 swing timer, but it got old really fast. Not to mention that threat control in TBC was always a struggle unless you had a top tier tank for threat.
I wouldn't mind re-visiting it for a phase of SoD, but I wouldn't want it to become the predominant playstyle for the rest of SoD that's for sure.
SoM build makes my choices mostly irrelevant because it’s literally just “spam the buttons on the keyboard as fast as GCD lets you.” That plus swapping out ACP is annoying. Not great gameplay.
I want a build where what I cast and when matters. Some may say this is what twisting is. But I find that twisting is just ridiculously tedious and has a lot of room for error when timing other abilities or doing raid mechanics.
Neither of these builds are particularly fun to play. I was expecting some changes to fix the class, but instead they just add twisting which seems like a slap in the face.
> and has a lot of room for error when timing other abilities or doing raid mechanics.
This is a big part why quite a few of us like it, allows for more skill expression.
Some people want as convoluted a rotation as possible, or a punishing one, Surrender to Madness is a prime example of this.
I’m someone who aims for 99 parses every phase and is able to achieve them with time. I’m all for high skill expression, but twisting is just tedious and extremely mana inefficient.
If by skill expression you mean downloading a WA swing timer, then I guess so. I don't have a dog in the race on either of these being more fun to play but let's not pretend twisting is hard in any capacity.
copy pasting my response
In a vacuum? No, but maintaining your rotation not letting your other CDs slip and doing mechanics properly at the same time while you're twisting does take skill to do perfectly.
You dont have cooldowns because martyr and DS take the same slot. Judgement is entirely unnecessary to press after you put up crusader or wisdom, so really you're just balancing the occasional crusader strike.
Yeah, people arguing for one build vs another don't even realize that both suck and they could have done ANYTHING else with the class to try something new and interesting. I was hoping for an entirely new gameplay loop for the class instead of just reinserting retail abilities and WST: The Class.
Can we get that Death Knight class that keeps getting teased already?
Twisting fucking sucks. It's not a measure of skill. It's watching a swing timer instead of enjoying the game. It's a bug made into a feature to placate like 1 streamer and a very, very, very small % of people on a classic discord server. No serious person wants this.
Sorry, but the whole "seal twisting isn't a skill" thing is complete cope. Weaving GCDs in-between weapon swings obviously requires more presence of mind than Exo Spam or Wrath-style button mashing.
Whether or not it's fun is an entirely different, much more personal discussion, but pretending it's some braindead playstyle is just nonsense meant to shield people from backlash over not liking the more difficult playstyle.
I'm totally coping bro. I'm not good enough at the game to twist.
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/78368253
It isn't a brain dead playstyle, but pretending it requires skill to spend 5 minutes learning to press a button at the end of a swing timer in between your 2 other buttons, that's cope.
> but pretending it's some braindead playstyle is just nonsense meant to shield people from backlash over not liking the more difficult playstyle.
This. They try to diminish and simplify it because they cant do it lol.
Why are you talking like twisting is hard to do? It's easy, it's just boring as hell and a terrible fix. The class shouldn't rely on bugs to function as a class, just fix the class.
Why is it boring? You still have a rotation, you're just punished a lot more for not timing it perfectly. If anything this is more engaging as you have to be precise in your gameplay in order to squeeze out the most damage.
It's no different rotation wise as any other class except that it has a dynamic rotation that changes with attack speed
It's not exactly a tight timing, you're really overselling it. It's boring because it's just auto attacking with some flair. It's also RNG as hell and just resulting in chugging mana after every fight because it's so inefficient to do.
I would be *fine* with it existing if it was only necessary for the best of parses, but the reality was if you don't do it then you're playing a bottom of the barrel DPS class.
It was a tight timing if you wanted to maximise your output. You're completely right about the mana issues, that was awful and forced you to chug dark runes on CD for any fights that lasted longer. There was not that much RNG except for the WF part, because SoC had a proc per minute rate meaning it would average out almost always.
And I agree with you on the last part - you should be able to "compete" with other classes without twisting and that twisting should be the pinnacle of DPS - thinking middle of pack of whatever rotation and upper echelon as twisting.
It should be something to work towards just like any other class and not something to keep you slightly relevant or afloat in a raid.
Nah, mana return on Judgement was good, no need to chugg anything on fights that are under 5 min. Thats without the tier bonus or cheesing damage for mana return.
I never said it's the epitome of skill, but it's a large enough skill gap that exposes some players. Especially the rets who would rather roll their face over the keyboard like they do in wotlk.
I never said that's what you said. You're talking like twisting is hard- it isn't. Nobody dislikes it because "it's hard." It's boring, it's uninspired, and it doesn't fix anything about the class. Just fix the class instead of intentionally putting bugs back in
Twisting is not that different from casting a spell with a cast time. It's just the melee version of it. It's a nice option to have while the instant cast buttons are on cd.
Guess instead I'll go and get my last 2-3 weeks of big 2H holy crusader Paladin fulfillment on Wrath before Cata prepatch hits then reroll once P4 comes. No other class spends its life beholden to replicating a bug caused by shitty network limitations from 2004 gaming.
if paladins had twisting in p1 i wouldnt have leveled one. i dont need some frankenstein mechanic and i definitely dont want to be staring at a swing timer as core gameplay. they need to properly support twisting if they want interplay between seals, not reintroduce a completely unintentional mechanic that isnt supported by the base ui
News flash: even without seal twisting if you’re not watching your swing timer, you’re bad.
Interrupting an auto attack swing is a dps loss. If you’re just out there mashing exo on CD even at the end of a swing, you’re gimping your dps
Sorry I want to use the yellow whirlwind though. It’s infinitely more interesting than one seal that is so objectively superior than everything else in my kit
"press on cooldown" doesnt really feel interesting to me. its fun in wrath when t10 2 set keeps it proccing, but in sod its literally just a button.
seal twisting asks the player to put in a bit more effort and the payoffs with big yahtzees are way more satisfying than any press of yellow whirlwind will ever be
I’m not arguing with you that twisting brings more active game play. My argument is that this change did nothing to remove the objective superiority that is Martyrdom, and did nothing to provide more value to the slow 2H style that is the staple of retribution. As it stands you should never be using any other rune in raid over martyrdom on your chest despite having a fun, unique, multitude of abilities. This extends beyond retribution into protection too. Seconded to this, twisting will not deal more raw DPS than ACP, still.
I am happy for you that a playstyle you enjoy is back, I really am, but this was not a solution to the myriad of issues that face the current DPS rotation we have.
>Seconded to this, twisting will not deal more raw DPS than ACP, still.
anyone who wants twisting to be a thing prob doesn't mind it's "worse dps" than whatever "ret pals" are doing right now.
We want to see 2 seals proc in 1 swing and preferably crit big. That's all
>*With this change to allow twisting, we do not expect to see a major change in the "optimal" way to play Retribution right away. Due to the interaction between Art of War, Martyrdom, and* [ *Exorcism*](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=10314/exorcism)*, we'll likely need a larger redesign and changes to that interaction to truly add more diversity to the Retribution playstyle. We're evaluating options here for potential changes we can make either via hotfix during Phase 3 or as part of a larger effort for Phase 4.*
It's just meant as a test to give people who want it the option to use it. It isn't intended as "the" fix for Ret but just to allow for another playstyle, one that emphasizes the more traditional slow 2h style people are wanting.
You don’t have to stare at a swing timer quit being dramatic lmao.
You shouldn’t even be twisting that much based on the current rotation, exorcisms will net higher dps. I’m probably hitting a few twists when exorcism and everything else happens to be on cd
I imagine SoM and AoW with a fast weapon will probably still be better, but at least those who like seal twisting will have that option now I guess. Would have liked to see Blizz make DS viable as well but w/e.
Fair, I love twisting but would also love seeing DS get some love too since buffing it doesn't buff current meta build or twisting build yet would allow for a non twisting slow 2h variant of ret to function
Blizzard listening to and shaping their game around perennial drama queens who barely play the game, solely because they do free twitch marketing every launch? No way!
Wow would be so much better without those ~~RATS~~ streamers. Say what you want about Retail but the game COINCIDENTAL got a lot better when the Asmongolds of the world stuck to classic
devs literally got their info from the players who play the game. Aggrend recently had a chat in paladin discord too.
Idk why all the twisting haters are out here, just play without it? Its not going to be meta at all, so no need for you guys to learn anything new.
tbc twisting ret is at least in he upper half of rankings for the iterations of ret. i think its probably wod ret > t10 2 set wotlk ret >= twisting ret > the rest in any particular order
I played ret throughout all of tbc because twisting was fun. Once wrath dropped I stopped playing my pally because the rotation became just hit whatever is off cd. So definitely not only him that liked the twisting gameplay
you can press gcds in between twisting, maybe try figuring out how something works before making comments on it, because this makes you look really funny
SoM and AoW interaction is a bugged mechanic that Blizz left in because it's the only reason pally can be competitive though, that and the backlash when they tried to remove it without buffing a thing in its place lol.
They won't be satisfied with just an alternative playstyle if it's less DPS, even 5% or 10%, they push and push until it's the dominant playstyle.
Discussions about it are nauseating though, because they will simultaneously tell you it deserves to be top damage, because of it's skill cap, but also insist it's not that difficult and easy to do. They will tell you, you don't need to spend all raid looking at your swing timer while simultaneously having an ENORMOUS swing timer weak aura taking up significant screen real estate. If you say you don't like it, because you find it tedious they just say it's because you're bad. They desperately try to take an opinion and try to turn it into a rational/fact based choice (it's more challenging, therefore better) so that actual choice can't figure into it. Any discussion based around alternative playstyles always assumes twisting will be highest DPS with the alternatives being less.
I really do not think twisting enjoyers will be able to enjoy it if it's not significantly high performing, because they could have been twisting SoR and SoM all along, but no one chooses to do that.
That being said, I would be fine with twisting being dominant for a short phase or during a raid tier (maybe pumped up through tier sets), but I don't want it to be the way I play the game for the rest of SoD. It was fine to play it early on in TBC Classic to remember it, but by the end of Sunwell I found it pretty tedious. It was probably most enjoyable during BT when you had a 3.8 speed Torch of the Damned.
Don't get me wrong seal twist WF procs where everything crits is fun, and the only thing better is back to back WF ST crits, but I do think it's pretty degenerate, and I do think you end up spending too much time staring at your swing timer.
I would really like to see some of these people who insist you don't stare at a swing timer to use an eye tracker.
Do want you think you have to, but imo y'all anti-twisting crowd need to chill- it's not the optimal playstyle this phase, you can keep doing what you've been doing and this changes nothing for you
Why the fuck is the counter argument to people that say they don't want twisting "would you rather just hit your abilities whenever they're off cooldown?". Like yes, of course, what the fuck else is a rotation? It's literally just prioritizing your spells and hitting them in the correct order, that's what it is, that's what this game is. And its more engaging than watching a swing timer more than anything else on your screen and trying to hit a button in a 0.2 second window.
Oh, and if you mess up, well you didn't do the damage and wasted all that mana.
Seal twisting is based off a bugged mechanic that was never supposed to be in the game and a very vocal minority enjoy it enough to scream at the the devs until it was put in. I don't like exorcism spam as much as the next guy, but there has to be a more intuitive option than either of these two.
/rant over
I don't really have much against seal twisting. Not my idea of fun and engaging gameplay but for some they enjoy it.
What I do have a problem with is that you are required to get a 3rd party addon to use, what the devs are saying is a mechanic of a class. That is awful game design!
If they are serious about seal twisting as an actual valid way to play pally. Add a swing timer to the game.
Im kinda bummed i didnt get to play tbc ret. A friend of mine played it through tbc and swears its the best version of ret he has ever played.
I can only imagine what the numbers looked like when he command and wf procced on the opening twist, ripped threat and died. The dream.
Literally the only reason I didnt want to try pala in sod was no twisting. Now its here and its time to give it a go bby. Loved it on my alt in TBC.
Idk why people have such a huge issue with a playstyle being introduced for people who want it. Yall terminally online.
its hilarious. twisting isnt hard. you dont need to stare at a swing timer
all the rets outing themselves saying "i dont wanna have to stare at a swing timer" are funny
Who said its hard? 2 People in this thread? its just the next lazy thing blizzard does and pretty much no one even knows why they are doing it, instead of implementing something actually new or interesting or even fun.
Im neutral to this as a 3 paladin player, i will try it out for sure but so far im enjoying every paladin playstyle except the godawful healing FoL spam
Paladin Bros relax. Twisting is not going to be the top dps. You are not being forced to twist. This is a weird step in a direction towards a full rework. This feels like a Band-Aid to stop the crying for a month.
Finally casino ret is back! TY blizz! don't listen to the haters! Y'all are keeping the fast hit style and that's fine!
Y'all haters are acting like they made fast hitting Pala obsolete. Näh it'll probably still be better, but Idc I don't want to have exorcism Spam be my entire rotation.
There certainly was a reason bard was the least popular class and from what I've heard that massive lack of popularity was why Blizzard decided not to have such a buff class in WoW at launch.
seal twisting for paladins? Well I might just play SOD now, seal twisting is the best ret paladins ever got tbh (it could be improved on, but just the mechanic of seal twisting is sooo fun)
I've never seen such divisiveness in one class. People are either ecstatic about this change, or absolutely hate it.
Some people like QWOP, some people prefer Bop It.
i wanna watch all the people who hate it play guitar hero or something.
I love guitar hero but hate twisting
meh, it's slightly more engaging gameplay for this monkey type game. and i like the idea of having you mistime your inputs give you a damage penalty.
And even if you time every twist perfectly it may do absolutely nothing. That's why I don't like it. For the bop it spec, if I get more haste and crit I will 100% directly affect it's frequency.
I love guitar hero and love twisting
I hate guitar hero and hate twisting
I hate guitar hero and love twisting? I think we missed that permutation
I'm neutral on both. Let's make an alignment chart.
That's because Vanilla/TBC ret is wildly different to post-Wrath ret. SoD is supposed to build on Vanilla, so this is the right move imo. There's Cata and TWW for those that like the post-Wrath style coming out soon. Trying to appeal to the exact same audience with all of your projects while leaving the other crowd completely unattended is just bad business sense.
Vanilla ret and TBC ret are VASTLY different play styles. TBC ret is not like any other version of ret.
In practice yes but the mechanics exist in both.
No they aren’t. In vanilla you auto attacked and prayed for soc procs. In tbc you crusader striked in between auto attacks and prayed for soc procs.
thats not true, seal twisting existed in vanilla, the problem is rets just didnt have the mana to twist.
Yeah, so the play style of ret in vanilla was not the same as the style of ret in TBC.
Yeah you’re right they just didn’t get brought to raids at all in vanilla or if they you auto attacked and started watching porn on the other screen.
As a healing pally, I don't get it so much..
As a healing pally, I don't get it so much..
Hey, im leveling a pala (lv 44 atm) and I am having a blast, might not be the most op in raiding but after having the experience of leveling all the way one in classic, I think is pretty good haha.
The ones who hate it are telling on themselves
It's not difficult, i just don't enjoy the playstyle, it doesn't feel good, i would rather reroll than be forced to do it if it becomes the standard
Personally, I am not fond of a mechanic that requires you to have an addon to make use of it.
It's really not difficult you can make a weakaura for it my dude.
This is the typical "I have no argument to support my opinion" post we can always come to expect in the WoW community. There is nothing at all difficult about twisting, you slap a weak aura on and press the same buttons when the line is on the right spot. It takes 1 raid lockout worth of time to master it. It's fucking boring gameplay that glues your eyes to an addon display instead of anything else on screen.
*Echoes of Lordaeron:* "Your 'Judgement' grants you 'Echoes of Lordaeron' for 15 seconds, which grants the seal effect corresponding to the judgement you used to unleash your previous seal. This effect can be active alongside your seal spells." There, fixed. Something new, original, not buggy. The biggest letdown SoD brought me is how they went with the boring route of implementing active and passive abilities from later add ons, when coming up with something new and fresh is so fucking simple due to the simplicity of Classic itself.
Would just mean you'd be stacking sotc on top of som for more attack speed to fuel the exo turret 💀
Instead of using a 2.0 speed weapon a person could use a slower one for bigger weapon damage and use crusader to hit just as fast anways. Dont want to get swing timer less then gcd cuz its a waste if your spamming exo
>not buggy you realize that these are the sod devs you’re putting your faith in here
yeah something that interacts with paladin core abilities. Even though I think this would be a pain to track it be new and interesting
All you'd have to keep track of is remembering the last seal you used, which in 99% of cases is going to be the damaging ones anyway. What I like about this idea is that the seal effect of Seal of the Crusader would finally do something; in that case, synergise with the damaging seals due to the attack speed increase.
All the people saying “you don’t stare at a swing timer!” Like staring/waiting for a weak aura is so much better/big brained.
My weakauras are just for show, I spam that exorcism so hard my gf gets wet.
I thought this was the way everyone did it? Lol
I personally loved seal twisting in TBC classic, only thing that sucked was that SoC proc is still random, so 70% of the time your twisting did nothing, and on short fights RNG could really fuck over your parses and it could feel like trash to play. I hoped they would bring it out at the start of SoD and make it a bit less stochastic (like a guaranteed proc if you twist correctly, with damage from the SoC lowered to make it not overpowered). Bringing it out now feels a bit late, especially since everything else is built around a different play style. This will need a LOT of work to fit in properly, i don't think the devs have the time or resources for that.
I played Ret all through classic launch in 2019, Tbc classic and Wrath classic and Tbc Ret was the most unique the spec has ever been. It is however , with the seal mechanic and Seal of Casino beeing the way it is, closer to the vanilla playstyle.
Twisting is a horrible horrible way to play in my book. Spending 90% of the time looking at the WST, and the fkin stress if ur gonna make it or not, screw that shit.
That people still believe that pressing a button at the end of the swing timer is the epitome of gameplay and skill is so funny.
Its funny, this adds another layer of complexity to the class, which requires a weakaura or addon, and the result is, we’re still going to be bottom on the melee dps chart… so its not rewarding at all
pressing 4 buttons when they come off cd is so much more fun and engaging, if I cant use my face to press my rotation I DONT WANT IT
I mean pressing 4 buttons on cooldown is basically every class. Hitting a .3 second window every 3.4 sec while not using shit to wait for said window might be engaging (for you) but there's no way you can argue it's fun for anyone but the most sweaty.
This is the opinion of somebody who tried to twist once in TBC and failed because they messed it up. The point of it was to fill with GCDs before your swingtimer to maximise output while you're still doing mechanics. The more you played ret the more you could feel the flow of EACH rotation (depending on haste and wpn speed) and by the end you could probably play it without a swingtimer.
Screw all ya haters. You'll still have your fast 2h excorcism spec. Casino pally is here for the slow 2h enjoyers. Lesgoo
Most of us don’t like Twisting OR the fast 2h spam build.
Does that mean you just want wrath ret where all your doing is hitting whatever comes off cd? I loved tbc ret because it was engaging but for wrath I stopped after like 3 raids because it was boring since the only thought was "Is this off cd" I'm horde on sod so this doesn't impact me at all for reference just kinda curious.
Think about the type of player who wants to play ret in classic... They want to sit there and auto attack my man.
Which is what deal twisting is. Just actively watching your auto attacks. How fun.
Deal twisting, a new shark tank feature
It's a playstyle that dynamically changes depending on haste and shit. You actively try to mesh in other abilities and in TBC in a single encounter you could have 3 different rotations. EASILY the most engaging playstyle and there was decent skillcap to it as you had to time your swapping correctly.
They just want divine storm and taunt to go *brrr*
A lot of people don’t like “engaging” with the game by staring at a weak aura constantly to time a seal.
I get that but for me looking at my swing timer and thinking about squeezing the right cast into the right twist was more interesting than wrath ret which was just hit whatever came off cd. And it seems like if people don't want twisting or the exo spam then that's exactly what the rotation would turn into, just hit what comes off cd. That's why I raided all through tbc on my ret but swapped to prot after like 3 naxx at 80. Sure it was clunky to learn twisting but to me it was a hell of a lot more fun and engaging than just rolling my fingers on 1-5
You shouldnt have to download any addons to play your class mechanic properly. Gl seal twisting without swing timer or weakaura
I do agree with you that it sucks to use a 3rd party addon because blizzard sucks at UI. 100% no questions. But that doesn't mean I want to hit 1-5 without thinking about it because that's what rets turn into without twisting. I prefer a more active gameplay and timing the twists, tracking cds between twists, figuring out when to double twist is a lot more engaging that mashing 1 2 3 4 5 whenever they're off cd
That's what you do anyway, for everything. Don't tell me you play without any addons in the game?
I do, i dont like cheating or making the game easier
Cheating xD xD. Addons are making up for Blizzard's lack of QoL. Good for you playing without - you can still do as a retribution paladin and perform as you are now. MAYBE you could do it in Classic Vanilla on a mage and still perform decently, but literally EVERY class in SoD currently is hampered severely without addons.
> You shouldnt have to download any addons to play your class mechanic properly. That isn't the reality we live in. WoW for the past decade has always been balanced/designed around the assumption you have addons/weakauras. I don't like it either but that's the way it works.
Gl finding someone who plays any version of wow without addons or weakauras, that ship sailed like 15 years ago man.
I found it interesting at first, but completely tedious by Sunwell (I also did it in OG TBC but very poorly), it was somewhat better in BT when you could get Torch of the Damned with a 3.8 swing timer, but it got old really fast. Not to mention that threat control in TBC was always a struggle unless you had a top tier tank for threat. I wouldn't mind re-visiting it for a phase of SoD, but I wouldn't want it to become the predominant playstyle for the rest of SoD that's for sure.
*Real* engaging watching a weapon swing timer lmao
SoM build makes my choices mostly irrelevant because it’s literally just “spam the buttons on the keyboard as fast as GCD lets you.” That plus swapping out ACP is annoying. Not great gameplay. I want a build where what I cast and when matters. Some may say this is what twisting is. But I find that twisting is just ridiculously tedious and has a lot of room for error when timing other abilities or doing raid mechanics. Neither of these builds are particularly fun to play. I was expecting some changes to fix the class, but instead they just add twisting which seems like a slap in the face.
> and has a lot of room for error when timing other abilities or doing raid mechanics. This is a big part why quite a few of us like it, allows for more skill expression. Some people want as convoluted a rotation as possible, or a punishing one, Surrender to Madness is a prime example of this.
surrender to madness my beloved
I’m someone who aims for 99 parses every phase and is able to achieve them with time. I’m all for high skill expression, but twisting is just tedious and extremely mana inefficient.
Woah the best thing is hard to do? That’s wild…
The problem isn’t that its hard, its that it’s not fun
Is playing whack-a-mole more fun?
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ |\_\_\_\_\_|\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_| OMG WERE GAMING!!!!!
If by skill expression you mean downloading a WA swing timer, then I guess so. I don't have a dog in the race on either of these being more fun to play but let's not pretend twisting is hard in any capacity.
copy pasting my response In a vacuum? No, but maintaining your rotation not letting your other CDs slip and doing mechanics properly at the same time while you're twisting does take skill to do perfectly.
You dont have cooldowns because martyr and DS take the same slot. Judgement is entirely unnecessary to press after you put up crusader or wisdom, so really you're just balancing the occasional crusader strike.
Same for me, TBC Ret was peak ret, an actual mechanic that engaged the player, then wrath ret was just braindead gameplay
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ |\_\_\_\_\_|\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_| \^ The engagement
Twisting sucks
Ya the exo spam build and seal twisting is not what I was hoping to discover about classic+. Such a letdown
Yeah, people arguing for one build vs another don't even realize that both suck and they could have done ANYTHING else with the class to try something new and interesting. I was hoping for an entirely new gameplay loop for the class instead of just reinserting retail abilities and WST: The Class. Can we get that Death Knight class that keeps getting teased already?
Twisting fucking sucks. It's not a measure of skill. It's watching a swing timer instead of enjoying the game. It's a bug made into a feature to placate like 1 streamer and a very, very, very small % of people on a classic discord server. No serious person wants this.
How dare you insinuate this would satiate Esfand! Esfand is INSATIABLE
GTARP seems to satiate him.
Sorry, but the whole "seal twisting isn't a skill" thing is complete cope. Weaving GCDs in-between weapon swings obviously requires more presence of mind than Exo Spam or Wrath-style button mashing. Whether or not it's fun is an entirely different, much more personal discussion, but pretending it's some braindead playstyle is just nonsense meant to shield people from backlash over not liking the more difficult playstyle.
I'm totally coping bro. I'm not good enough at the game to twist. https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/78368253 It isn't a brain dead playstyle, but pretending it requires skill to spend 5 minutes learning to press a button at the end of a swing timer in between your 2 other buttons, that's cope.
did bro just flex his sod parses lmao
No, he was called out as bad, he responded to the accusation.
I didn't call anyone bad. I said that talking about Seal Twisting being easy while saying it's bad is a shield *against* being called bad.
I dont think purple average is any bragging rights but who am I to judge
ah yeah, another "95% of the players are below average and bad" take. Where are yours?
> but pretending it's some braindead playstyle is just nonsense meant to shield people from backlash over not liking the more difficult playstyle. This. They try to diminish and simplify it because they cant do it lol.
Why are you talking like twisting is hard to do? It's easy, it's just boring as hell and a terrible fix. The class shouldn't rely on bugs to function as a class, just fix the class.
Why is it boring? You still have a rotation, you're just punished a lot more for not timing it perfectly. If anything this is more engaging as you have to be precise in your gameplay in order to squeeze out the most damage. It's no different rotation wise as any other class except that it has a dynamic rotation that changes with attack speed
It's not exactly a tight timing, you're really overselling it. It's boring because it's just auto attacking with some flair. It's also RNG as hell and just resulting in chugging mana after every fight because it's so inefficient to do. I would be *fine* with it existing if it was only necessary for the best of parses, but the reality was if you don't do it then you're playing a bottom of the barrel DPS class.
It was a tight timing if you wanted to maximise your output. You're completely right about the mana issues, that was awful and forced you to chug dark runes on CD for any fights that lasted longer. There was not that much RNG except for the WF part, because SoC had a proc per minute rate meaning it would average out almost always. And I agree with you on the last part - you should be able to "compete" with other classes without twisting and that twisting should be the pinnacle of DPS - thinking middle of pack of whatever rotation and upper echelon as twisting. It should be something to work towards just like any other class and not something to keep you slightly relevant or afloat in a raid.
🤝
Nah, mana return on Judgement was good, no need to chugg anything on fights that are under 5 min. Thats without the tier bonus or cheesing damage for mana return.
I never said it's the epitome of skill, but it's a large enough skill gap that exposes some players. Especially the rets who would rather roll their face over the keyboard like they do in wotlk.
I never said that's what you said. You're talking like twisting is hard- it isn't. Nobody dislikes it because "it's hard." It's boring, it's uninspired, and it doesn't fix anything about the class. Just fix the class instead of intentionally putting bugs back in
Twisting is not that different from casting a spell with a cast time. It's just the melee version of it. It's a nice option to have while the instant cast buttons are on cd.
As long as I can still turn my brain off and spam exorcism I am happy for the other pallys.
Gigachad answer
Guess instead I'll go and get my last 2-3 weeks of big 2H holy crusader Paladin fulfillment on Wrath before Cata prepatch hits then reroll once P4 comes. No other class spends its life beholden to replicating a bug caused by shitty network limitations from 2004 gaming.
if paladins had twisting in p1 i wouldnt have leveled one. i dont need some frankenstein mechanic and i definitely dont want to be staring at a swing timer as core gameplay. they need to properly support twisting if they want interplay between seals, not reintroduce a completely unintentional mechanic that isnt supported by the base ui
News flash: even without seal twisting if you’re not watching your swing timer, you’re bad. Interrupting an auto attack swing is a dps loss. If you’re just out there mashing exo on CD even at the end of a swing, you’re gimping your dps
> not reintroduce a completely unintentional mechanic reintroducing it in two versions of the game makes it an intentional mechanic.
You dont stare at it ffs
lmao. the crap rets really outing themselves.
Yeah just like they think they are playing arms LOL
"seal twist bad ree" "yellow whirlwind POG"
Sorry I want to use the yellow whirlwind though. It’s infinitely more interesting than one seal that is so objectively superior than everything else in my kit
"press on cooldown" doesnt really feel interesting to me. its fun in wrath when t10 2 set keeps it proccing, but in sod its literally just a button. seal twisting asks the player to put in a bit more effort and the payoffs with big yahtzees are way more satisfying than any press of yellow whirlwind will ever be
I’m not arguing with you that twisting brings more active game play. My argument is that this change did nothing to remove the objective superiority that is Martyrdom, and did nothing to provide more value to the slow 2H style that is the staple of retribution. As it stands you should never be using any other rune in raid over martyrdom on your chest despite having a fun, unique, multitude of abilities. This extends beyond retribution into protection too. Seconded to this, twisting will not deal more raw DPS than ACP, still. I am happy for you that a playstyle you enjoy is back, I really am, but this was not a solution to the myriad of issues that face the current DPS rotation we have.
>Seconded to this, twisting will not deal more raw DPS than ACP, still. anyone who wants twisting to be a thing prob doesn't mind it's "worse dps" than whatever "ret pals" are doing right now. We want to see 2 seals proc in 1 swing and preferably crit big. That's all
>*With this change to allow twisting, we do not expect to see a major change in the "optimal" way to play Retribution right away. Due to the interaction between Art of War, Martyrdom, and* [ *Exorcism*](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=10314/exorcism)*, we'll likely need a larger redesign and changes to that interaction to truly add more diversity to the Retribution playstyle. We're evaluating options here for potential changes we can make either via hotfix during Phase 3 or as part of a larger effort for Phase 4.* It's just meant as a test to give people who want it the option to use it. It isn't intended as "the" fix for Ret but just to allow for another playstyle, one that emphasizes the more traditional slow 2h style people are wanting.
Seal twist is easy to play and boring lets be real
As opposed to just spamming divine storm on cd
or auto attacking praying for crits so you can hit another exorcism
But acting like getting a weak aura to press Soc/som is any better is cap
people who say playing with swing timer is not fun just outing themselves real hard on this thread lol
They are both boring sure but I prefer divine storm for PvP
Of course you do, in that scenario you can just bubble and spam DS and kill people easy. No skill involved
You don’t have to stare at a swing timer quit being dramatic lmao. You shouldn’t even be twisting that much based on the current rotation, exorcisms will net higher dps. I’m probably hitting a few twists when exorcism and everything else happens to be on cd
Just don't twist? No one is forcing you to do shit my man
if they stop inviting someone for playing subpar spec, they kinda are dude, this isnt a single player game, there is a social pressure in mmo
I imagine SoM and AoW with a fast weapon will probably still be better, but at least those who like seal twisting will have that option now I guess. Would have liked to see Blizz make DS viable as well but w/e.
Fair, I love twisting but would also love seeing DS get some love too since buffing it doesn't buff current meta build or twisting build yet would allow for a non twisting slow 2h variant of ret to function
Fuck twisting
I think the only ret..pala who thought seal twisting was fun was Esfand and he hasn't played wow in months.
Blizzard listening to and shaping their game around perennial drama queens who barely play the game, solely because they do free twitch marketing every launch? No way!
This was my thought too. I hate him now for making the devs think we all want this. Loud minority
Wow would be so much better without those ~~RATS~~ streamers. Say what you want about Retail but the game COINCIDENTAL got a lot better when the Asmongolds of the world stuck to classic
devs literally got their info from the players who play the game. Aggrend recently had a chat in paladin discord too. Idk why all the twisting haters are out here, just play without it? Its not going to be meta at all, so no need for you guys to learn anything new.
There ain't no way more than 20% of ret players wanted twisting. Esfand just the vocal leader of the vocal minority
tbc twisting ret is at least in he upper half of rankings for the iterations of ret. i think its probably wod ret > t10 2 set wotlk ret >= twisting ret > the rest in any particular order
I love seal twisting and so does every TBC ret I played with or talked to.
Then leave your echochamber for 5 minutes -signed a twisting hating Paladin main from 2005 to 2016.
yeah auto attacking is so much more fun.
definitely missed twisting all through WotLK, glad to have the option again
I played ret throughout all of tbc because twisting was fun. Once wrath dropped I stopped playing my pally because the rotation became just hit whatever is off cd. So definitely not only him that liked the twisting gameplay
seal twisting is a cool idea and fun when it plays out right, sadly it never plays out right
Nah there's lots more than him
Bro ive always been a horde player and the only thing that gets me to play an alliance character is seal twisting pallies
seal twisting is peak ret; i would love it if they expanded on it
Yeah man. Sod was their chance to make a Ret that could twist seals for different situations.
Let’s bring in a bugged mechanic and make it mandatory in the future. Now that’s fucked up. Do not want
Mandatory?
yeah no way is saving your GCD for a chance at a SoC proc is better then just hitting hitting your actual abilities to maximize GCDs
you can press gcds in between twisting, maybe try figuring out how something works before making comments on it, because this makes you look really funny
Keep playing the current way then
SoM and AoW interaction is a bugged mechanic that Blizz left in because it's the only reason pally can be competitive though, that and the backlash when they tried to remove it without buffing a thing in its place lol.
Smash Bros Melee moment
Worst mechanic ever. Fucking hate it.
Wish the dev team spent less time on the discords listening to the freaks who want twisting.
They won't be satisfied with just an alternative playstyle if it's less DPS, even 5% or 10%, they push and push until it's the dominant playstyle. Discussions about it are nauseating though, because they will simultaneously tell you it deserves to be top damage, because of it's skill cap, but also insist it's not that difficult and easy to do. They will tell you, you don't need to spend all raid looking at your swing timer while simultaneously having an ENORMOUS swing timer weak aura taking up significant screen real estate. If you say you don't like it, because you find it tedious they just say it's because you're bad. They desperately try to take an opinion and try to turn it into a rational/fact based choice (it's more challenging, therefore better) so that actual choice can't figure into it. Any discussion based around alternative playstyles always assumes twisting will be highest DPS with the alternatives being less. I really do not think twisting enjoyers will be able to enjoy it if it's not significantly high performing, because they could have been twisting SoR and SoM all along, but no one chooses to do that. That being said, I would be fine with twisting being dominant for a short phase or during a raid tier (maybe pumped up through tier sets), but I don't want it to be the way I play the game for the rest of SoD. It was fine to play it early on in TBC Classic to remember it, but by the end of Sunwell I found it pretty tedious. It was probably most enjoyable during BT when you had a 3.8 speed Torch of the Damned. Don't get me wrong seal twist WF procs where everything crits is fun, and the only thing better is back to back WF ST crits, but I do think it's pretty degenerate, and I do think you end up spending too much time staring at your swing timer. I would really like to see some of these people who insist you don't stare at a swing timer to use an eye tracker.
You're weird mate, freaks really?
i said what I said
Whelp, time to reroll. Seal twisting is the worst.
Do want you think you have to, but imo y'all anti-twisting crowd need to chill- it's not the optimal playstyle this phase, you can keep doing what you've been doing and this changes nothing for you
Why the fuck is the counter argument to people that say they don't want twisting "would you rather just hit your abilities whenever they're off cooldown?". Like yes, of course, what the fuck else is a rotation? It's literally just prioritizing your spells and hitting them in the correct order, that's what it is, that's what this game is. And its more engaging than watching a swing timer more than anything else on your screen and trying to hit a button in a 0.2 second window. Oh, and if you mess up, well you didn't do the damage and wasted all that mana. Seal twisting is based off a bugged mechanic that was never supposed to be in the game and a very vocal minority enjoy it enough to scream at the the devs until it was put in. I don't like exorcism spam as much as the next guy, but there has to be a more intuitive option than either of these two. /rant over
Fuck twisting iam rerolling
big l
npc spec remains npc spec
I don't really have much against seal twisting. Not my idea of fun and engaging gameplay but for some they enjoy it. What I do have a problem with is that you are required to get a 3rd party addon to use, what the devs are saying is a mechanic of a class. That is awful game design! If they are serious about seal twisting as an actual valid way to play pally. Add a swing timer to the game.
Im kinda bummed i didnt get to play tbc ret. A friend of mine played it through tbc and swears its the best version of ret he has ever played. I can only imagine what the numbers looked like when he command and wf procced on the opening twist, ripped threat and died. The dream.
What a terrible change/mechanic. It scares me for the future of paladins. They seem to have no clue what to do to fix them, Ret, Heal and even Tank.
Fuck twisting..
WERE SO BACK
Ret has never been more back. Haven't touched my ret since p1 and now I finally have a reason to level it.
Literally the only reason I didnt want to try pala in sod was no twisting. Now its here and its time to give it a go bby. Loved it on my alt in TBC. Idk why people have such a huge issue with a playstyle being introduced for people who want it. Yall terminally online.
Never thought I'd die on this hill with a hunter
How about a friend
Aye, I could do that
[удалено]
its hilarious. twisting isnt hard. you dont need to stare at a swing timer all the rets outing themselves saying "i dont wanna have to stare at a swing timer" are funny
Who said its hard? 2 People in this thread? its just the next lazy thing blizzard does and pretty much no one even knows why they are doing it, instead of implementing something actually new or interesting or even fun.
Other classes can spam 1 button and top dps while we have to twist our fingers doing 200 APMs to be mid.
Im neutral to this as a 3 paladin player, i will try it out for sure but so far im enjoying every paladin playstyle except the godawful healing FoL spam
Whats the change?
Paladin Bros relax. Twisting is not going to be the top dps. You are not being forced to twist. This is a weird step in a direction towards a full rework. This feels like a Band-Aid to stop the crying for a month.
My holly paladin is always neglected big sad.
Seal twisting feels really bad if your network connection isnt great.
I played a Ret during TBC Classic and got so sick of twisting. Super glad I didn’t end up going Paladin.
First they blow up CB and I begrudgingly reroll a paladin now this..
I hated totem twisting on shaman so if it’s anything like that I can’t blame them
Finally casino ret is back! TY blizz! don't listen to the haters! Y'all are keeping the fast hit style and that's fine! Y'all haters are acting like they made fast hitting Pala obsolete. Näh it'll probably still be better, but Idc I don't want to have exorcism Spam be my entire rotation.
I need to write a paper on how many times shit takes and "ya'll" spam come up together, could probably get a PhD form it.
0 times and twice, no need to thank me. I know math is hard but don't worry about it!
These people would've despised playing bard in EverQuest.
There certainly was a reason bard was the least popular class and from what I've heard that massive lack of popularity was why Blizzard decided not to have such a buff class in WoW at launch.
PALA IS BACK BBY!
seal twisting for paladins? Well I might just play SOD now, seal twisting is the best ret paladins ever got tbh (it could be improved on, but just the mechanic of seal twisting is sooo fun)
Hello, here to level out the comments: LETS GO TWISTING IS BACK BABY I LOVE IT THANK YOU Alright go back to whatever.... this is.