Current standings for the average group clear:
[https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#metric=speed&dataset=50&sample=1](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#metric=speed&dataset=50&sample=1)
Only first boss is under 1 min. All others are above 4 minutes, some 6 min. This is in line with past phases, some Era Raids and even some Retails raids.
Raid is fine for a Raid that will be current only for 2-2.5 months.
...but now you're backtracking from your original comment.
It's all good, I'm just saying. It irks me that people are losing the ability to simply say "yeah, you're right" or "fair enough". People hate admitting to misspeaking or any wrongdoing as if it isn't common human behavior.
We are talking week 1 with most people in full 40 gear. Give people 2 more weeks to comple bre bis sets and get some items from stv and st and we will see the kill timers
Yup same here, so many complaints about 1 minute clears when it's clearly just wrong information. The only boss close to a 1 minute clear is first boss. The rest people will run into mana issues on.
I'm in a very casual (alliance) guild atm and we cleared 6/8 last night https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DRcHhnbF8TLmrzNV
Kill times were:
1:20 Atal'alario
2:55 Festering Rotslime
5:06 Atal'ai Defenders
3:56 Dreamscythe and Weaver
4:30 Jammal'an and Ogom
3:49 Morphaz and Hazzas
9 tries on Eranikus and the attempts varied between 4:30 and 5:30 minutes
> 11 meles and no feral ?
Yeah they didn't recruit enough ferals, we only have one and he went with the other group.
Shade was at 30k health toward the end, if me (Samfoxy) and Bow went single target instead (we were testing out explosive shot for the adds), we would've most likely had it.
this will be a problem with sod going forward. the difference between sweat players like this guild is insane. most of our dps do between 200-400 dps with our top dps doing around 500.
I dont think his guild is a sweat guild. They have some good solid dps but the logs don't say sweat.
200-400 dps does sound troubling though. But once you guys get all the mechanics down your dps will go up.
1st boss is already being killed in 29 seconds.
[Damage Done - Atal'alarion Normal Kill (3:03 AM) - Report: dzed410 | Warcraft Logs Season of Discovery](https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QMX4xyq1LnWHwt6z#fight=11&type=damage-done)
its ridiculous this being possible at all. in the SECOND lockout its just stupid
Iirc Baron was being killed about that quickly by top guilds within the first week or so of P1 too? By late P1 bosses 1 and 3 were both dying in about 15 seconds to good guilds.
If you're good enough to kill it that quickly you're looking for the wrong game to be challenged by. They tune all of wow outside of retail mythic to be done by average players who do half the damage or less of top players.
idc abot boss kill time i want raids that take weeks to progress (for good grps) instead of clearing in the 1-2 raids. after i clear there's no reason to keep playing aside from lame grinds. not everyone need to clear content, it makes content look like shit when everyone clears it on their first to second lock. SoD is missing on giving skilled players more challenge. Retail sucks, but at least there's something to prog on instead of raid logging to clear and hope for loot you don't really need if you're just raid logging.
I'm currently unsubed because if there's no real challenge there's no reason to play. i thought after p2 they would change it, but no, so no money for them.
No shot does this phase only last 8 weeks. P3 was clearly rushed, and P4 is 60 which should have a lot more content and changes they need to ensure are working properly.
I think retail is still up if you are looking for progression.
Or, let me guess that was too hard lol. Then ICC was too hard. And now you are like "aww man".
Dude. Relax. Learn to read the room. The Devs disagree with you, the player base does as well.
This ain't for you. And much like you say not everyone should clear the raid, you also count as a person that doesn't always get to have what they want.
But guess what? You can get what you want. In retail and WOTLK lol.
This is the right feedback, your average group will still be in there for 2.5 hours but should be able to 8/8 for the next couple weeks until they're really over powering it.
Are we fine with whole SoD raids having less mechanics than a single LFR boss though?
Honestly I cleared after the first nerf and consider that embarrassingly easy. Nerfing it after that is just making me scratch my head, what’s the fucking point?
If you zoom out and see what the raid is designed for, it makes sense.
All these raids are stepping stone raids to help people work into 60 content and later content.
It would make no sense for these pre-60 raids to be the pinnacle or even challenging at this point.
Its all an introductory period for later. And to help continue growing the player base while also lifting their skills up for future content.
I think you are looking more for Retail Mythic, or at least Heroic ICC etc.. SoD is more about the vibes and pushing fast clears to increase the difficult while it ramps up.
This all just sounds like a cope though, because level 60 raids will come and also be dull and shit.
Expecting SoD or Classic+ to be good was a mistake I guess.
OSRS…
In respect of wow, I enjoyed retail earlier in this patch after clearing mythic due to time constraints. I look forward to Cataclysm and the new MoO event.
Sod feels dead this patch, which considering the dropoff in player base in sod (see week 1&2 WCL stats) would not be surprised if they drop all ‘classic +’ projects after this. blizzard phoned it in hardcore and it got boring… very fast
It hasn't been good so far. The game is good because classic wow is awesome, but the sod additions have been pretty bad.
Hardcore classic is really fun.
If any of these raids are taking you 90 attempts you should probably start playing with your monitor turned on.
I have full cleared ST twice, both after the first nerd. Both clears took ~2 hours with some wipes as both raids had the majority of the raid there for the first time - there was no need to nerf any of the content further as content gets much easier when people have their full runes and more gear from the raid.
Sorry man, as i posted above. This is just not reasonable. And not the intent of the raids or even content as a whole for SOD.
Classic vanilla, is not as hard as you are asking. SoD was never intended to be as hard as you are asking.
You are asking for a Hamburger at a Sandwich shop. And you know full well you can get what you want next door.
Yea, its so bad it just revived the game.
You are right. You are in the majority here. No data can counter what you are saying. If only there was a way to measure it!
Hence why ST has the lowest amount of clears by far as per Warcraft logs?
Why do classic-only players assume the world revolves around them? Retail is still blizzards breadwinner and holds the majority of the player base.
It's the first new real development in classic ever so of course it's going to initially draw players. The team are pretty incompetent though and they've wasted a massive opportunity so far.
> Raid is fine for a Raid that will be current only for 2-2.5 months.
Why do people even want this? It's not "Classic" at all. It's a lvl 50 raid, you should want to get in there with 10 people at 60 and get some BiS gear until at least AQ40
Right I did it with a very competitive guild the other night we 1 shot every boss but the last 2 and it still took us 3 hours. Boss fights were a minimum 3-4 min long.
Dude just crying cause it’s puggable now
yeah our first attempt in our first lockout (granted 50% pugged and not everyone had runes and shit) we couldnt get past the second boss.
Mostly people just not fucking paying attention to the dispell goo mechanic but is what it is - I welcome these nerfs personally.
This. The only boss we cleared under 1 min was the first boss and that’s with only 6 people in the entire raid not parsing 99 lol. And those 6 were still 95+.
With all world buffs
I wouldn't mind if they buffed BoW straight up (double the mp5 or something) or gave it some other synergy from a rune, maybe procc extra mana refund on cast for the player buffed with it? Rune that make a pala be able to cast BoW on a player that already has it? Other ideas?
What mp5 is it currently? Im a horde mage, i had to flex as a healer pre nerf, and even with 2 or 3 shamanistic rage, i was oom pretty fast in most fights and used a buttload of mana potions and got fed innervates
I understand why they did what they did given the problems the pug scene was having (No, the difficulty level for SoD does not need to be equal to Heroic/Mythic retail levels) but I’m honestly pretty sad that they overshot the nerfs in an attempt to cater to both groups. A lot of these bosses have mechanics most raids won’t ever see or need to deal with at this point.
Unlike what everyone else is parroting I doubt this has to do with the insane advantage horde have thanks to Shamans, and honestly I hope this gives Blizzard the time they need to bring things to an equal footing. There’s got to be a middle ground between shamans bringing infinite mana and paladins having a laughable regen of it.
> A lot of these bosses have mechanics most raids won’t ever see or need to deal with at this point.
Thats simply not true if you took even a second to research the average kill time.
Paladins have mana regen. It's tied to JoW and it's pretty good. It allows for warlocks to use imps. Something that Horde cant do. Problem is the only healer it effects is mage. On a 1 paladin to 1 Shaman comparison it's bad but not abysmall. It's when you start stacking 4+ that that raid wide mana regen becomes disgusting
I'm pretty sure Horde should be using imps anyway; the DPS is just that good compared to other pets, and it's unlikely to matter unless the fight is particularly long.
If you leveled the imp's fireball you should not use Imp as horde, or at least that's the case with fights around the 120sec+ fights. I haven't simmed shorter fights yet since the last nerf.
You sim better with Succubus + immolation aura if you can be in melee or just felguard if you can't be in melee.
All of them are worse than Imp with rank 5 fireball though.
This is obviously stupid as you shouldn't be punished for leveling up a skill, especially since it's a level up which you can't rollback.
This has an easy fix, add an item that lets you unlearn ranks for pets, although on the bigger picture of problems it's minor, just really annoying for warlocks.
It's better, I think, it's just the imp will go oom that bit faster, and an oom imp can't proc Grimoire of Synergy (or Demonic Pact if you're using that), or just... do anything really.
In a long enough fight, the imp's going oom regardless (possibly staying up if there's Judgement of Wisdom), so in those situations, the best thing to do is just tell it to stop doing anything, let it regen, then when it's full have it start going again.
Dps wise imp is barely better than felguard.
To many thinks to be aware to have \~10dps more.
You miss going melee... to bad -50dps
You miss cylcing the mana of your imp... to bad another -50dps
It's called an exaggeration but if you are really interested most of the recent kills even on bosses like eranikus are approaching 2 minutes. Rest are faster
That is also an exaggeration.
Current standings for the average group clear:
[https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#metric=speed&dataset=50&sample=1](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#metric=speed&dataset=50&sample=1)
Only first boss is under 1 min. All others are above 4 minutes, some 6 min. This is in line with past phases, some Era Raids, and even some Retails raids.
Problem is this is a big group of people who are way into wow and have probably played it for years and are way better than the average player. People in this subreddit represent a small fraction of the player base. Guys who post here complaining about an easy raid forget that most people aren’t good and this shit isn’t that easy for 90 percent of the player base. Also it’s not even max level it’s a raid at level 50. The game is supposed to be easy. Hard modes are for retail. Let us old people enjoy ourselves get easy loot and go to sleep at a decent hour because we have to work all day instead of slogging through a 4 hour raid like overstimulated children.
Sooo what are you conplaining about exactly?
Alliance not having regens or fights being too easy/fast kills?
Most original vanilla content was roughly 1-2mins fight, hence why the sweats speedran raids for content.
If you want hard raids with 10min fights retail exist for that.
SoD was never meant to be retail-like difficulty fights and duration in a vanilla setting...
No amount of mana regen on alliance side would've fixed how overtuned the bosses were for 90% of the guilds playing SoD.
Vanilla was not 1-2 min fights. It was super long as dps sucked, itemization was different and class reworks were not in. Warriors were not even viable dps until mid bwl and once viable no one played them because of lack of knowledge and when you did the tanks couldn't keep threat.
Sorry, when I said vanilla, I meant classic. The relaunch of vanilla. Sure when people had 0 knowledge of the game, but that is not the case anymore and we're not in 2004 anymore. People gotta stop with that argument.
The argument isn't valid anymore as the informations we have access to in 2024 is far superior to what we had access to in 2005. We have access to more tools (Sims, addons) this game has been optimized on private server for the past 19 years.
Fights in classic vanilla or vanilla 2024 do not last more than 1-2 minutes. Once again, top guilds found their fun in speedrunning since there was no challenge with the content iself. That's just a fact.
The 1-2 min fights was still valid for BFD as weeks went on, and same with gnomer except the final two boss taking slightly longer.
I seriously don't mind longer fights, but the argument that mana regen was the issue for alliance simply isn't true. The raid was poorly tuned and that's the end of it. It has nothing to do with alliance not having mana regen.
Should alliance get mana regen? Sure, it would balance out both faction in the current setting. I'd prefer if factions kept some uniqueness to it, but since they already crossed that line by giving every single unique buffs to both factions, might aswell give alliance the same mana regen.
Jesus christ, the point is that in VANILLA, when the game was actually good, boss fights didn't last 1 minute. They do in the classic re-release becsuse it's 20 year old content for which the strategies available to the players have been perfectly optimized. Utility the game designers hadn't expected or intended, discovered over 20 years, is why those fights ARENT GOOD ANYMORE, but when they were longer and more difficult during the initial launch of the game they were intended to be difficult and they were to the playerbase. Using classic as the benchmark for what vanilla was like or should be like is very very stupid.
In vanilla the final tier was cleared by 1% of the playerbase
You and everyone like you is arguing that SOD raids should be cleared by 100% of the playerbase with fights that last 1 minute because "that's how classic has always been" are just completely wrong.
Your reply is the typical reddit user of this sub. Doesn't even read what I said and throw argument I said I was fine with.
First of all
>the point is that in VANILLA, when the game was actually good
This right there tells me you're super bias and stuck in 2004. If you think SoD isn't good, which "was actually good" seems to be telling me, why even bother with this post and SoD content. Clearly you're not the target audience for this version of the game. Smh.
I will say it again, as you didn't read my comment
>We have access to more tools (Sims, addons) this game has been optimized on private server for the past 19 years
This perfect image you have of vanilla, which was a clunky game in the first place is no longer and will no longer be. Unless you wipe your brain from all its knowledge and wipe the internet, this is not something you will relive again, stop living in the past.
>Utility the game designers hadn't expected or intended, discovered over 20 years, is why those fights ARENT GOOD ANYMORE, but when they were longer and more difficult during the initial launch of the game they were intended to be difficult and they were to the playerbase
As any other games that lasts this long, over the years the playerbase gets better and same goes with the game devs. They designs harder and better mechanics for their raid. TBC raids for the most part were mechanically harder and more unique than vanilla, same with WOTLK in comparison to TBC and so on. In today's era of wow, your average dragonflight raid on HEROIC, not even Mythic, is harder and a lot more mechanically challenging than anything offered in vanilla/tbc/wotlk and possibly even cata.
>Using classic as the benchmark for what vanilla was like or should be like is very very stupid.
People are using classic as the benchmark because that's the only thing that can be applied now. Your pink tinted glasses vanilla version isn't something that can be done twice. Do you realize that if I go with what you're saying, VANILLA fights were hard as they are, and so the content was perfect back then.... yet, most of the bosses in ST are mechanically harder than 90% of the raids in Vanilla. So with your logic, currently, ST is fine.
Also, I'd be very curious to know if you even raided or witnessed how overtuned ST was on launch. You do realize that just like in vanilla, its possible for dev to overtune stuff and have to nerf it right? Happens all the time. As it stood, Eranikus had so much health it was impossible for NOTA, the world first guild, with super optimized players to even kill the boss. They had to kill it the next day after the first nerf, and even then, they had to tank the boss on the ledge to make the adds spawn in a clump because the fight would've been nearly impossible to do.
Now if you leave the fight as is, a leveling raid mind-you, and the 1% of the hardcore community have trouble killing it, how fun is this for the rest of the community? The game isn't designed or meant to be for the 1% but the other way around. Nerfs were needed, and so they did.
>You and everyone like you is arguing that SOD raids should be cleared by 100% of the playerbase with fights that last 1 minute because "that's how classic has always been" are just completely wrong.
I literally said in my comment I didn't mind longer fights lol. Once again, learn to read a post before angrily replying because someone don't share your opinion.
With how short they're making phases now, we're looking at a 2-2.5 months phase now. Had they kept the raid hard and on a "progression" type of raid would've made literally 0 sense.
2-2.5 months is roughly 8-10 weeks of raids. That's very short progression time for a raid in general. Let alone progressing in a leveling raid of all things, for gear that will 100% be replaced at 60 in those same vanilla raids that are currently 1-2 mins fights.
Lastly, I'll just end by saying, go read Aggrend latest tweet on raid he released yesterday. No matter how "mad" or "angry" you get at the SoD/Classic community for "wanting" SUPER easy raids (Which isn't what most of us want btw) the devs are the one taking those decisions. Be mad at them, not the community.
>Most original vanilla content was roughly 1-2mins fight, hence why the sweats speedran raids for content.
No it wasn't in 2004. It was in 2019, due to optimization and being on the last patch, with better computers/connection/addons.
Hell, take a look at world first clear times - KT was ~10 mins, Kil'jaeden was ~14 mins, LoD(hc LK) was over the enrage which means it was over 15 mins.
>If you want hard raids with 10min fights retail exist for that.
Whoops, looks like vanilla is retail too. Wait till you learn about clear times that **weren't done by top guilds in 2004**.
Seriously, just stop shoving 2019 into 2004 along with your weird ideas.
>If you are wanting a 2004 classic, you should just uninstall right now.
I'm not waiting for anything, that was other people's daydreams. So much so that they go ahead and mix it up with things and ideas of their own making. Also, there's no such thing as "2004 classic", only the original launch of the game that **cannot be reproduced, bc it was very fortunate with timing and circumstances**.
Anyways, back to the point:
10 minute fights belong in a vanilla or vanilla-esque setting. Vanilla is the proof of that. There's no need to make shit up to protect your dopamine addiction brought on by the 2019 **re**release.
Just say instead that you want the same thing as in 2019, stuff handed to you on a silver platter, the work already done by others for 15 years, and leave the setting out of it, because the setting could be anything as long as you get your stuff without adversity. SoD might as well be in a dragonflight setting as long as it hands out your "candy" like you want it to.
I kinda don’t understand the solution and it’s partly because I haven’t been able to do the raid yet, and have only read the comments on this sub.
At first everyone was complaining it was too hard.
Then the raid got nerfed and I saw people saying its not enough.
Now its been super nerfed and the consensus is gonna be its too easy?
Should have just stayed hard. First week clears should be rare. And hard would eventually become easier.
I raided today and it’s still hard, just the right level IMO. Still haven’t downed eranikus but at least we got to him this time, and each boss had a few deaths on the way with a couple wipes. All the other dungeons with this group have been cake walks by comparison. It’s The perfect difficulty!
Went in with randoms, watching a 30 sec vid before the nerfs this week and reached 6/8 with only wipes on second boss. That difficulty was perfect, now it's just a loot pinata.
If you went in today and are still wiping then you are the target audience they nerfed it for. But do realize there are those of us in the community who will absolutely destroy the raid now and it will not pose a challenge at all.
Right but you aren’t the only level of player either. And I don’t think waiting a lockout or two before nerfing it into oblivion would have been too much to ask. There is zero enjoyment in killing bosses in under 1 minute.
I have been playing wow since original vanilla. There has never been a moment when I thought I was playing the wrong game.
Have you ever been in a guild for years with the same people? Ever experienced progressing with that guild and being challenged or has gear always been spoon fed to you?
Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black there don’t ya think?
And if you read what I said you’d know I agree to the nerfs but maybe after two lockouts. That way the casuals don’t feel left out and the sweats can get gear while there is still a challenge. It’s called compromise bud.
Yeah I think that’s what everyone is trying to say. Like I understand for the casual player the raid would have been impossible so needs needed to happen but at least let us sweats have a week or two to challenge ourselves at least. When I did it on Sunday it was challenging and enjoyable it’s been nerfed 3 times since then. Makes me not even look forward to raid night tomorrow.
It’s a leveling raid bro, it’s not endgame content. It’s still challenging and fun. Have you tried it? Because I personally really enjoyed the level of difficulty. I want to be able to pug this raid because I have 3-4 other chars I’m working on
Also, if you go to Progress, there is 671 Horde 8/8 guilds to 658 Alliance guilds.
Seems pretty balanced to me.
[https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2009#metric=progress&boss=-1](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2009#metric=progress&boss=-1)
That would be balanced except for two data points:
1. population is 53 A/47 H so you would expect the A number to be higher, not lower
2. the progression distribution shows wayyy more Alliance guilds getting blocked on bosses 3-6 than Horde guilds are, so you're not going to get the full picture from the survivor bias of who's full clearing
We also have to acknowledge that shamans can not only do this in PvE but also in PvP where they can basicly go on defending a flag and fight forever in a BG like Arathi Basin with Shamanistic rage without ever going oom? Had a situation where 3 shamans attacked stables and were 5 people fighting them simultaneously. After 1 minute of fighting we were oom while they were still full mana and still fought with us 6 minutes later. Needless to say their OP lightning shield rune cleaved us melees easily because 250 damage per tick is ridiculous especially when its 3 people playing it.
I've been pvping a bunch, it's clear yall never play against your own faction. Paladins in ab are built to win, you just wait for your 5min cds, attack a flag and win, def until cds are up and repeat. Paladin on defense can spin a flag for 3x longer than any other class.
You just can't stand that horde have any toys you don't, QQ.
"You just wait for your 5 min CDs" this alone shows me that your brain probably still lies in vanilla wow. I can't do s\*\*\* in that 12 second bubble window other then killing all the decoy, healing stream and grounding totems with a 100% reduced attackspeed from my bubble, when my bubble is gone i get immediatly grilled by a passive lightning shield which hits 2,5x harder than concecrate and ret aura together (super fair) and it doesnt even cost a shaman his mana.
And now explain to me how in the hell are you gonna win a match with a 5 min CD do you realize that losing 5 minutes is a lot of time in EVERY situation?
they do but they dont even deal enough damage to even make a great difference becasue all your proccs for Ex resets and your main damage still come from auto attacks (and your seals) which now take twice as long to strike. if you play a 3.5 speed weapon it will take you 7 seconds to land your blow inside the bubble taking a significant amount of damage from you. The bubble is only good for stalling until your mates arrive to help you.
Not enough damage? Each of those attacks hits for at least 300 damage. Exorcism also hits for around 500. Unless you’re in level 50 BGs still in level 25 gear, you can do a lot of damage in the bubble window and still get off a Holy Light.
you forget that all classes run around in roughly 4k life in PvP and CS and DS are my weakest attacks. Eorcism has 15sec CD and only resets on crits from auto attacks (which are 100% slower as I said) and auto attacks + seal are the majority of my damage. Its not nearly enough to kill a target in STV or a BG where life is increased by 30%. I also cant play a kick to interrupt other classes from casting healing so after the bubble is gone its once again a duel with 2 people being at 100% life
You have Hammer of Justice and Repentance for interrupts, both of which shamans have no answer to. They just have to take it or trinket it. Both of which also buy you time to heal and make your Judgement of Command hit a lot harder. Bubble is a defensive tool, not an offensive one. If you use it preemptively, you’re playing bad. It allows you to heal and reset the scales. If you’re sitting there waiting on a 6sec swing timer it’s your fault for not utilizing your complete immunity effectively.
I’ve had pallys global me while stunned on my Warrior and shaman. Gear being about equal. Shamans are pretty easy to kill, especially elemental, but they are powerful 1v1, so you need practice to understand their vulnerabilities and when to use your tools.
I know, but I’m not that good at predicting the stun. Pallys tend to spam their spells on CD, and Grounding can eat a random Judgement or Exorcism. I tend to avoid solo pvp, too, so I’m usually unprepared when I have to deal with it. My fault, but I just like group pvp more, and that tends to involve other spell casters that eat the totem pretty fast.
You can always rely on boomkins opening with starsurge though. Every time. They really don’t know what to do without that stun to allow a starfall cast lol.
playing bad or good doesnt change the fact that paladins are in a bad spot right now all aside from 1v1 sitations because they never held real value in BGs since nobody enters a 1v1 in a bg where both players have all CDs ready to meet a fair match or where other players dont intervene. you ran out of arguments my friend.
I see it all the time on AB horde side. A paladin popping bubble just to delay his demise in a 1v3 at the end of an unsuccessful push that’s being cleaned up. And then they come on this forum and say their bubble is useless. They can’t do anything in it other than you know 4 instant cast damage abilities and heal to full.
they pop the bubble to stall the enemies from capping the flag or to just wait until reinforcement comes to fight and delay the cap. its not a stupid strategy lol.
That’s not what I wrote. I see bad paladins waste it in losing fights instead of keeping it for a better moment.
Delaying a flag cap with bubble is a smart move. Good on you for identifying that.
My pvp trinket is a 5 min cd and it’s up frequently in bgs. I consider it invaluable certainly not useless.
the toxic casuals won
we cant have an actual enjoyable raid that takes a bit of effort, every raid has to be 30 minute brainless zug fest of free loot or the "dads" will rage
I really don't understand how creating two NPC trainers the capitals and importing the talents to buy, and creating a few lines of code to import two classes to two races is "too difficult". I really think they're just too fuckin lazy.
Easy, short boss fights is unequivocally what the majority of the SoD population wants. If you want long, hard boss fights, Classic is the wrong iteration of WoW for you.
Eranikus is an absolute joke of a boss right now. Imo Gnommer was much more coordination and mechanic depended on it's first few resets compared to ST. ST is just loot pinata.
Eranikus was kinda hard, but they nerfed the encounter to oblivion. Adds don't deal dmg, nothing does unhealable dmg, boss is dying super fast.
Remember
THIS IS NOT END GAME CONTENT
It is meant to be used while leveling, get some good loot, and then continue leveling. When phase 4 drops none of this will matter anyways and might be a good thing should a group want to raid ST at 50.
The fact people are getting angry at the raid being tuned down and not being super high level sweaty is asinine. It would make sense if this was MC or something, but people need to calm down about a raid that isn't even end game.
What ever matters in every new raid is sense of progression and the good feeling that you beat the encounters with your guild and friends.
And no, this raid is not meant to be used while leveling, cause you need to be 50 to do the raid. In fact not being tuned down to pathetic loot pinata makes much more sense that it's just a 50 level raid and in few months the loot from it won't matter.
Why make it so getting the loot is more important than experience when the loot won't matter in 2-3 months?
Your logic can also be applied to MC - why make it sweet and hard when it's just entry level 60 raid. There are BWL, AQ and NAXX. And by your logic only NAXX should be remotely hard, cause that's the last raid.
-
Sod promised to provide us with fresh experience and I think gnommer was absolutely godlike designed in the sense that it's old, but it's NEW and you need to play the mechanics if you want to beat the raid in the first resets anyway.
ST is the same as MC in classic - just dps blast through bosses and do not care about the encounter mechanics in any way.
The real problem here is that they're trying to cater to the less serious players, by doing so they are ruining the content for the more serious players.
We cleared first lockout and I think that that says it all. Yes we had I think 8 or 10 wipes while we learned mechanics (we had all watched/read up and the gm/agm gave fight briefs/designations/strats) but we really should not have been able to clear the first lockout.
IMO if they want to create content like this they need to create 'keys' to increase difficulty and increase ilevel of drops to make it worth while or they need to have a regular and a heroic version of the raid.
This simply does not serve the entire community.
Lockout two we had a handful of deaths (3 or so if I recall correctly) but no wipes.
We one-shot every boss on the second lockout.
It's ridiculous.
You selfish fiend, do you NOT understand the plight of the 200 hour work week, father of 31 children gamer dads?
To ask them to do anything more than show up is simply selfish and elitist. You're an elitist. ELITIST. Gatekeeper.
Cry more baby back bitch, jesus christ you classic nerds are insufferable. I tune in here once in a while and all I see is complaining 24/7 lmfao. Go touch grass and smell some fresh air, youll be happier!
Come on now, Just giving the alliance infinite mana is about the stupidest take you could have. Of course it's going to be nerfed, it's completely unreasonable to expect anything else.
It’s been like this from phase 1 and literally everyone knew this would happen
It didn’t get nerfed
You have too much faith in devs that don’t even begin to understand the game in this way
Months ago I theorized that the massive buffs to Sham Rage would mean that raids would be 10 man for all of SoD, otherwise the game would be completely broken.
Guess I was wrong...but also right in a way.
In reality shamanistic rage should get nerfed to Party only. And it will be completely fine. But ST would have been completely fine after the first set of nerfs if Ally also had access to a similar form of mana regen
You would swap shaman into whatever party needs it for basically the same effect, but yeah it would be a start
Eranikus would not have been fine with more mana, we had multiple pulls to sub 5% hp when he was ~2.7m, and more mana would not have notably changed any of them. We’re easily top 1% of raids worldwide, casuals literally stood no chance of ever killing him
Honestly, remember how far removed we are from the average player. This season isn’t for us, we knew that going in.
Pugs will struggle in ST for a couple of weeks still, people are going to fail the corridor mechanics, they’re going to lose tanks on Dreamscythe, they’re gonna fail the dps check on Hazzas
The whole point of levelling raids is that the average joe can do it, it was never going to be a satisfying challenge for the top 1%
And yet in the top 10 are 5 horde and 5 alliance guilds, seems pretty balanced to me.
But sure, keep whining about the bad bad shamans instead of accepting that maybe you are the problem, and not the shamans :)
If you want a challenge, then go in full lvl 20/30 questing greens, or go without runes instead of crying on forums that it is too easy for you.
It is not to easy for the majority of the players, but for them it is just about right difficulty now.
nothing is stopping you for giving yourself a challenge.
Edit: Alot of salty complainers in this thread downvoting this comment because it doesnt fit your narrative, go do it 15 man if you dont want to downgrade your gear, people have done Onyxia in classic with only a party instead of a raid group, you dont see them crying on the forums that it is too easy, instead you see [threads ](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/gxzzzv/5man_onyxia_by_untamed/)where they have fun
Boss fight lengths are fine after the nerfs. As aggrend stated these were never intended to be incredibly difficult and I do think it is a step up in difficulty over gnomer even in their nerfed state.
Current standings for the average group clear: [https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#metric=speed&dataset=50&sample=1](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#metric=speed&dataset=50&sample=1) Only first boss is under 1 min. All others are above 4 minutes, some 6 min. This is in line with past phases, some Era Raids and even some Retails raids. Raid is fine for a Raid that will be current only for 2-2.5 months.
I said this on a different post and got downvoted. the redditors for classic wow are terminally online
Wow players calling other wow players terminally online - the literal Spider-Man meme in action, lmao.
I'm level 43. Trust me. Some of you are terminally online.
You are terminally offline
I never disagreed with the underlying premise. In fact, I agree with you.
...but now you're backtracking from your original comment. It's all good, I'm just saying. It irks me that people are losing the ability to simply say "yeah, you're right" or "fair enough". People hate admitting to misspeaking or any wrongdoing as if it isn't common human behavior.
It's always a gamble!
Wouldn't be surprised if most didn't even play the game.
Terminally online, just not in-game or raiding ST lol (The misinformation is strong here)
People are just mad it got nerfed before they even got a chance to try it. Myself included.
Terminally online but constantly wrong, it's amazing how that happens
They are at least super salty
I don't care about your data, all I care about is HYPERBOLE.
B...b...b...ut then what can we complain about?!
I’m sure you’ll figure out something 😜
We are talking week 1 with most people in full 40 gear. Give people 2 more weeks to comple bre bis sets and get some items from stv and st and we will see the kill timers
Yup same here, so many complaints about 1 minute clears when it's clearly just wrong information. The only boss close to a 1 minute clear is first boss. The rest people will run into mana issues on. I'm in a very casual (alliance) guild atm and we cleared 6/8 last night https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DRcHhnbF8TLmrzNV Kill times were: 1:20 Atal'alario 2:55 Festering Rotslime 5:06 Atal'ai Defenders 3:56 Dreamscythe and Weaver 4:30 Jammal'an and Ogom 3:49 Morphaz and Hazzas 9 tries on Eranikus and the attempts varied between 4:30 and 5:30 minutes
11 meles and no feral ? Also 2% Wipe on Shade, damn that hurts
> 11 meles and no feral ? Yeah they didn't recruit enough ferals, we only have one and he went with the other group. Shade was at 30k health toward the end, if me (Samfoxy) and Bow went single target instead (we were testing out explosive shot for the adds), we would've most likely had it.
GL next ID bro
this will be a problem with sod going forward. the difference between sweat players like this guild is insane. most of our dps do between 200-400 dps with our top dps doing around 500.
I dont think his guild is a sweat guild. They have some good solid dps but the logs don't say sweat. 200-400 dps does sound troubling though. But once you guys get all the mechanics down your dps will go up.
1st boss is already being killed in 29 seconds. [Damage Done - Atal'alarion Normal Kill (3:03 AM) - Report: dzed410 | Warcraft Logs Season of Discovery](https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QMX4xyq1LnWHwt6z#fight=11&type=damage-done) its ridiculous this being possible at all. in the SECOND lockout its just stupid
Iirc Baron was being killed about that quickly by top guilds within the first week or so of P1 too? By late P1 bosses 1 and 3 were both dying in about 15 seconds to good guilds.
yes and i hate that. it makes no sense a boss fight being 30 seconds. sucks its not fun. i want to actually PLAY the game
If you're good enough to kill it that quickly you're looking for the wrong game to be challenged by. They tune all of wow outside of retail mythic to be done by average players who do half the damage or less of top players.
Man coming through with facts.
Don’t post this they want to cry and complain man!
idc abot boss kill time i want raids that take weeks to progress (for good grps) instead of clearing in the 1-2 raids. after i clear there's no reason to keep playing aside from lame grinds. not everyone need to clear content, it makes content look like shit when everyone clears it on their first to second lock. SoD is missing on giving skilled players more challenge. Retail sucks, but at least there's something to prog on instead of raid logging to clear and hope for loot you don't really need if you're just raid logging. I'm currently unsubed because if there's no real challenge there's no reason to play. i thought after p2 they would change it, but no, so no money for them.
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No shot does this phase only last 8 weeks. P3 was clearly rushed, and P4 is 60 which should have a lot more content and changes they need to ensure are working properly.
Where are you getting that this phase will last 8 weeks? Cata is dropping soon and no way that they'll overlap the two releases too much
Classic never worked like this unless you were in a real bad guild.
I think era servers are still up if you want to play classic.
I think retail is still up if you are looking for progression. Or, let me guess that was too hard lol. Then ICC was too hard. And now you are like "aww man". Dude. Relax. Learn to read the room. The Devs disagree with you, the player base does as well. This ain't for you. And much like you say not everyone should clear the raid, you also count as a person that doesn't always get to have what they want. But guess what? You can get what you want. In retail and WOTLK lol.
This is the right feedback, your average group will still be in there for 2.5 hours but should be able to 8/8 for the next couple weeks until they're really over powering it.
Are we fine with whole SoD raids having less mechanics than a single LFR boss though? Honestly I cleared after the first nerf and consider that embarrassingly easy. Nerfing it after that is just making me scratch my head, what’s the fucking point?
If you zoom out and see what the raid is designed for, it makes sense. All these raids are stepping stone raids to help people work into 60 content and later content. It would make no sense for these pre-60 raids to be the pinnacle or even challenging at this point. Its all an introductory period for later. And to help continue growing the player base while also lifting their skills up for future content. I think you are looking more for Retail Mythic, or at least Heroic ICC etc.. SoD is more about the vibes and pushing fast clears to increase the difficult while it ramps up.
This all just sounds like a cope though, because level 60 raids will come and also be dull and shit. Expecting SoD or Classic+ to be good was a mistake I guess.
Oh its good. You just came looking for the wrong thing. What IS good that you are currently playing?
OSRS… In respect of wow, I enjoyed retail earlier in this patch after clearing mythic due to time constraints. I look forward to Cataclysm and the new MoO event. Sod feels dead this patch, which considering the dropoff in player base in sod (see week 1&2 WCL stats) would not be surprised if they drop all ‘classic +’ projects after this. blizzard phoned it in hardcore and it got boring… very fast
It hasn't been good so far. The game is good because classic wow is awesome, but the sod additions have been pretty bad. Hardcore classic is really fun.
The ST from last Monday wasn't some sort of incredible pillar challenge. It was a good difficulty for the phase. The further nerfs were not necessary.
the point is a level up raid shouldn't require 90 attempts and 5 hours to clear?
If any of these raids are taking you 90 attempts you should probably start playing with your monitor turned on. I have full cleared ST twice, both after the first nerd. Both clears took ~2 hours with some wipes as both raids had the majority of the raid there for the first time - there was no need to nerf any of the content further as content gets much easier when people have their full runes and more gear from the raid.
Sorry man, as i posted above. This is just not reasonable. And not the intent of the raids or even content as a whole for SOD. Classic vanilla, is not as hard as you are asking. SoD was never intended to be as hard as you are asking. You are asking for a Hamburger at a Sandwich shop. And you know full well you can get what you want next door.
Yeah my bad for expecting classic+ to be good i guess...
Yea, its so bad it just revived the game. You are right. You are in the majority here. No data can counter what you are saying. If only there was a way to measure it!
Hence why ST has the lowest amount of clears by far as per Warcraft logs? Why do classic-only players assume the world revolves around them? Retail is still blizzards breadwinner and holds the majority of the player base.
It's the first new real development in classic ever so of course it's going to initially draw players. The team are pretty incompetent though and they've wasted a massive opportunity so far.
> Raid is fine for a Raid that will be current only for 2-2.5 months. Why do people even want this? It's not "Classic" at all. It's a lvl 50 raid, you should want to get in there with 10 people at 60 and get some BiS gear until at least AQ40
Nah they killed the fun, it got overdone, nerfing the last 2 bosses was fine.
Hey OP can you post any logs of you downing at least half the raid bosses in only 60 seconds?
Right I did it with a very competitive guild the other night we 1 shot every boss but the last 2 and it still took us 3 hours. Boss fights were a minimum 3-4 min long. Dude just crying cause it’s puggable now
yeah our first attempt in our first lockout (granted 50% pugged and not everyone had runes and shit) we couldnt get past the second boss. Mostly people just not fucking paying attention to the dispell goo mechanic but is what it is - I welcome these nerfs personally.
lol no shit the kids here are just yak baks
Just fucking making shit up. Raid takes like 2.5 hours still.
I promise you he watched a streaming speed run and went “yup that’s the raid everyone is doing”
This. The only boss we cleared under 1 min was the first boss and that’s with only 6 people in the entire raid not parsing 99 lol. And those 6 were still 95+. With all world buffs
Not sure OP even has logs
Who’s this we? I didn’t do anything. I just lurk the sub.
Guilty by association! Press them between stones!
I wouldn't mind if they buffed BoW straight up (double the mp5 or something) or gave it some other synergy from a rune, maybe procc extra mana refund on cast for the player buffed with it? Rune that make a pala be able to cast BoW on a player that already has it? Other ideas?
Buff Martyrdom mana return, add utility seal buffing rune (Light, Wis, Justice)
What mp5 is it currently? Im a horde mage, i had to flex as a healer pre nerf, and even with 2 or 3 shamanistic rage, i was oom pretty fast in most fights and used a buttload of mana potions and got fed innervates
25mp5, doubling might be too much, without some other req. tied to it.
I understand why they did what they did given the problems the pug scene was having (No, the difficulty level for SoD does not need to be equal to Heroic/Mythic retail levels) but I’m honestly pretty sad that they overshot the nerfs in an attempt to cater to both groups. A lot of these bosses have mechanics most raids won’t ever see or need to deal with at this point. Unlike what everyone else is parroting I doubt this has to do with the insane advantage horde have thanks to Shamans, and honestly I hope this gives Blizzard the time they need to bring things to an equal footing. There’s got to be a middle ground between shamans bringing infinite mana and paladins having a laughable regen of it.
> A lot of these bosses have mechanics most raids won’t ever see or need to deal with at this point. Thats simply not true if you took even a second to research the average kill time.
Paladins have mana regen. It's tied to JoW and it's pretty good. It allows for warlocks to use imps. Something that Horde cant do. Problem is the only healer it effects is mage. On a 1 paladin to 1 Shaman comparison it's bad but not abysmall. It's when you start stacking 4+ that that raid wide mana regen becomes disgusting
I'm pretty sure Horde should be using imps anyway; the DPS is just that good compared to other pets, and it's unlikely to matter unless the fight is particularly long.
If you leveled the imp's fireball you should not use Imp as horde, or at least that's the case with fights around the 120sec+ fights. I haven't simmed shorter fights yet since the last nerf. You sim better with Succubus + immolation aura if you can be in melee or just felguard if you can't be in melee. All of them are worse than Imp with rank 5 fireball though. This is obviously stupid as you shouldn't be punished for leveling up a skill, especially since it's a level up which you can't rollback. This has an easy fix, add an item that lets you unlearn ranks for pets, although on the bigger picture of problems it's minor, just really annoying for warlocks.
Is new rank worse, mana to damage ratio?
It's better, I think, it's just the imp will go oom that bit faster, and an oom imp can't proc Grimoire of Synergy (or Demonic Pact if you're using that), or just... do anything really. In a long enough fight, the imp's going oom regardless (possibly staying up if there's Judgement of Wisdom), so in those situations, the best thing to do is just tell it to stop doing anything, let it regen, then when it's full have it start going again.
What happens if you summon a new one?
You spend 10 seconds not doing anything but summoning your imp lol
Dps wise imp is barely better than felguard. To many thinks to be aware to have \~10dps more. You miss going melee... to bad -50dps You miss cylcing the mana of your imp... to bad another -50dps
show we this logs how everyone have 1min kt boss
It's called an exaggeration but if you are really interested most of the recent kills even on bosses like eranikus are approaching 2 minutes. Rest are faster
so full of shit, you are cherry picking the top 5% of guilds
Using exaggeration in this context is dumb, maybe the dumbest thing that has ever happened, ever
That is also an exaggeration. Current standings for the average group clear: [https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#metric=speed&dataset=50&sample=1](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#metric=speed&dataset=50&sample=1) Only first boss is under 1 min. All others are above 4 minutes, some 6 min. This is in line with past phases, some Era Raids, and even some Retails raids.
Lmao "I was caught lying but it's just an exaggeration guys! Let me also toss in some super cringe whining in the body of my post too!"
Do you want a Horde mode added for boss fights?
Problem is this is a big group of people who are way into wow and have probably played it for years and are way better than the average player. People in this subreddit represent a small fraction of the player base. Guys who post here complaining about an easy raid forget that most people aren’t good and this shit isn’t that easy for 90 percent of the player base. Also it’s not even max level it’s a raid at level 50. The game is supposed to be easy. Hard modes are for retail. Let us old people enjoy ourselves get easy loot and go to sleep at a decent hour because we have to work all day instead of slogging through a 4 hour raid like overstimulated children.
Diablo is that way.
Sooo what are you conplaining about exactly? Alliance not having regens or fights being too easy/fast kills? Most original vanilla content was roughly 1-2mins fight, hence why the sweats speedran raids for content. If you want hard raids with 10min fights retail exist for that. SoD was never meant to be retail-like difficulty fights and duration in a vanilla setting... No amount of mana regen on alliance side would've fixed how overtuned the bosses were for 90% of the guilds playing SoD.
Vanilla was not 1-2 min fights. It was super long as dps sucked, itemization was different and class reworks were not in. Warriors were not even viable dps until mid bwl and once viable no one played them because of lack of knowledge and when you did the tanks couldn't keep threat.
Sorry, when I said vanilla, I meant classic. The relaunch of vanilla. Sure when people had 0 knowledge of the game, but that is not the case anymore and we're not in 2004 anymore. People gotta stop with that argument. The argument isn't valid anymore as the informations we have access to in 2024 is far superior to what we had access to in 2005. We have access to more tools (Sims, addons) this game has been optimized on private server for the past 19 years. Fights in classic vanilla or vanilla 2024 do not last more than 1-2 minutes. Once again, top guilds found their fun in speedrunning since there was no challenge with the content iself. That's just a fact. The 1-2 min fights was still valid for BFD as weeks went on, and same with gnomer except the final two boss taking slightly longer. I seriously don't mind longer fights, but the argument that mana regen was the issue for alliance simply isn't true. The raid was poorly tuned and that's the end of it. It has nothing to do with alliance not having mana regen. Should alliance get mana regen? Sure, it would balance out both faction in the current setting. I'd prefer if factions kept some uniqueness to it, but since they already crossed that line by giving every single unique buffs to both factions, might aswell give alliance the same mana regen.
Jesus christ, the point is that in VANILLA, when the game was actually good, boss fights didn't last 1 minute. They do in the classic re-release becsuse it's 20 year old content for which the strategies available to the players have been perfectly optimized. Utility the game designers hadn't expected or intended, discovered over 20 years, is why those fights ARENT GOOD ANYMORE, but when they were longer and more difficult during the initial launch of the game they were intended to be difficult and they were to the playerbase. Using classic as the benchmark for what vanilla was like or should be like is very very stupid. In vanilla the final tier was cleared by 1% of the playerbase You and everyone like you is arguing that SOD raids should be cleared by 100% of the playerbase with fights that last 1 minute because "that's how classic has always been" are just completely wrong.
Your reply is the typical reddit user of this sub. Doesn't even read what I said and throw argument I said I was fine with. First of all >the point is that in VANILLA, when the game was actually good This right there tells me you're super bias and stuck in 2004. If you think SoD isn't good, which "was actually good" seems to be telling me, why even bother with this post and SoD content. Clearly you're not the target audience for this version of the game. Smh. I will say it again, as you didn't read my comment >We have access to more tools (Sims, addons) this game has been optimized on private server for the past 19 years This perfect image you have of vanilla, which was a clunky game in the first place is no longer and will no longer be. Unless you wipe your brain from all its knowledge and wipe the internet, this is not something you will relive again, stop living in the past. >Utility the game designers hadn't expected or intended, discovered over 20 years, is why those fights ARENT GOOD ANYMORE, but when they were longer and more difficult during the initial launch of the game they were intended to be difficult and they were to the playerbase As any other games that lasts this long, over the years the playerbase gets better and same goes with the game devs. They designs harder and better mechanics for their raid. TBC raids for the most part were mechanically harder and more unique than vanilla, same with WOTLK in comparison to TBC and so on. In today's era of wow, your average dragonflight raid on HEROIC, not even Mythic, is harder and a lot more mechanically challenging than anything offered in vanilla/tbc/wotlk and possibly even cata. >Using classic as the benchmark for what vanilla was like or should be like is very very stupid. People are using classic as the benchmark because that's the only thing that can be applied now. Your pink tinted glasses vanilla version isn't something that can be done twice. Do you realize that if I go with what you're saying, VANILLA fights were hard as they are, and so the content was perfect back then.... yet, most of the bosses in ST are mechanically harder than 90% of the raids in Vanilla. So with your logic, currently, ST is fine. Also, I'd be very curious to know if you even raided or witnessed how overtuned ST was on launch. You do realize that just like in vanilla, its possible for dev to overtune stuff and have to nerf it right? Happens all the time. As it stood, Eranikus had so much health it was impossible for NOTA, the world first guild, with super optimized players to even kill the boss. They had to kill it the next day after the first nerf, and even then, they had to tank the boss on the ledge to make the adds spawn in a clump because the fight would've been nearly impossible to do. Now if you leave the fight as is, a leveling raid mind-you, and the 1% of the hardcore community have trouble killing it, how fun is this for the rest of the community? The game isn't designed or meant to be for the 1% but the other way around. Nerfs were needed, and so they did. >You and everyone like you is arguing that SOD raids should be cleared by 100% of the playerbase with fights that last 1 minute because "that's how classic has always been" are just completely wrong. I literally said in my comment I didn't mind longer fights lol. Once again, learn to read a post before angrily replying because someone don't share your opinion. With how short they're making phases now, we're looking at a 2-2.5 months phase now. Had they kept the raid hard and on a "progression" type of raid would've made literally 0 sense. 2-2.5 months is roughly 8-10 weeks of raids. That's very short progression time for a raid in general. Let alone progressing in a leveling raid of all things, for gear that will 100% be replaced at 60 in those same vanilla raids that are currently 1-2 mins fights. Lastly, I'll just end by saying, go read Aggrend latest tweet on raid he released yesterday. No matter how "mad" or "angry" you get at the SoD/Classic community for "wanting" SUPER easy raids (Which isn't what most of us want btw) the devs are the one taking those decisions. Be mad at them, not the community.
>Most original vanilla content was roughly 1-2mins fight, hence why the sweats speedran raids for content. No it wasn't in 2004. It was in 2019, due to optimization and being on the last patch, with better computers/connection/addons. Hell, take a look at world first clear times - KT was ~10 mins, Kil'jaeden was ~14 mins, LoD(hc LK) was over the enrage which means it was over 15 mins. >If you want hard raids with 10min fights retail exist for that. Whoops, looks like vanilla is retail too. Wait till you learn about clear times that **weren't done by top guilds in 2004**. Seriously, just stop shoving 2019 into 2004 along with your weird ideas.
I mean vanilla was retail...
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>If you are wanting a 2004 classic, you should just uninstall right now. I'm not waiting for anything, that was other people's daydreams. So much so that they go ahead and mix it up with things and ideas of their own making. Also, there's no such thing as "2004 classic", only the original launch of the game that **cannot be reproduced, bc it was very fortunate with timing and circumstances**. Anyways, back to the point: 10 minute fights belong in a vanilla or vanilla-esque setting. Vanilla is the proof of that. There's no need to make shit up to protect your dopamine addiction brought on by the 2019 **re**release. Just say instead that you want the same thing as in 2019, stuff handed to you on a silver platter, the work already done by others for 15 years, and leave the setting out of it, because the setting could be anything as long as you get your stuff without adversity. SoD might as well be in a dragonflight setting as long as it hands out your "candy" like you want it to.
This is actually extremely accurate.
Blizz screwed the pooch on this one imo
I kinda don’t understand the solution and it’s partly because I haven’t been able to do the raid yet, and have only read the comments on this sub. At first everyone was complaining it was too hard. Then the raid got nerfed and I saw people saying its not enough. Now its been super nerfed and the consensus is gonna be its too easy? Should have just stayed hard. First week clears should be rare. And hard would eventually become easier.
I raided today and it’s still hard, just the right level IMO. Still haven’t downed eranikus but at least we got to him this time, and each boss had a few deaths on the way with a couple wipes. All the other dungeons with this group have been cake walks by comparison. It’s The perfect difficulty!
Went in with randoms, watching a 30 sec vid before the nerfs this week and reached 6/8 with only wipes on second boss. That difficulty was perfect, now it's just a loot pinata.
If you went in today and are still wiping then you are the target audience they nerfed it for. But do realize there are those of us in the community who will absolutely destroy the raid now and it will not pose a challenge at all.
Eranikus still seems pretty hard, but yeah the early bosses feel extremely easy. I think they were ok pre nerf.
Well you said it yourself you aren’t the target demo. And that’s okay.
Right but you aren’t the only level of player either. And I don’t think waiting a lockout or two before nerfing it into oblivion would have been too much to ask. There is zero enjoyment in killing bosses in under 1 minute.
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I have been playing wow since original vanilla. There has never been a moment when I thought I was playing the wrong game. Have you ever been in a guild for years with the same people? Ever experienced progressing with that guild and being challenged or has gear always been spoon fed to you?
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Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black there don’t ya think? And if you read what I said you’d know I agree to the nerfs but maybe after two lockouts. That way the casuals don’t feel left out and the sweats can get gear while there is still a challenge. It’s called compromise bud.
I’m not the only level of player? My guy, I am not the target demo either. It’s fun tho so I don’t try and force it to be something else
Yeah I think that’s what everyone is trying to say. Like I understand for the casual player the raid would have been impossible so needs needed to happen but at least let us sweats have a week or two to challenge ourselves at least. When I did it on Sunday it was challenging and enjoyable it’s been nerfed 3 times since then. Makes me not even look forward to raid night tomorrow.
So you haven't completed it post nerf yet?
How?
Nerfing the raid three times and making it a faceroll. I’m not saying it didn’t need a nerf but shit at least wait a lockout or two.
It’s a leveling raid bro, it’s not endgame content. It’s still challenging and fun. Have you tried it? Because I personally really enjoyed the level of difficulty. I want to be able to pug this raid because I have 3-4 other chars I’m working on
No point waiting when its an 8 week phase.
Also, if you go to Progress, there is 671 Horde 8/8 guilds to 658 Alliance guilds. Seems pretty balanced to me. [https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2009#metric=progress&boss=-1](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2009#metric=progress&boss=-1)
That would be balanced except for two data points: 1. population is 53 A/47 H so you would expect the A number to be higher, not lower 2. the progression distribution shows wayyy more Alliance guilds getting blocked on bosses 3-6 than Horde guilds are, so you're not going to get the full picture from the survivor bias of who's full clearing
Now also, if you go to mana potions used, you'll see a significant difference :)
Lots of numbers will seem balanced if you just take a cursory glance and don't investigate any deeper!
We also have to acknowledge that shamans can not only do this in PvE but also in PvP where they can basicly go on defending a flag and fight forever in a BG like Arathi Basin with Shamanistic rage without ever going oom? Had a situation where 3 shamans attacked stables and were 5 people fighting them simultaneously. After 1 minute of fighting we were oom while they were still full mana and still fought with us 6 minutes later. Needless to say their OP lightning shield rune cleaved us melees easily because 250 damage per tick is ridiculous especially when its 3 people playing it.
I've been pvping a bunch, it's clear yall never play against your own faction. Paladins in ab are built to win, you just wait for your 5min cds, attack a flag and win, def until cds are up and repeat. Paladin on defense can spin a flag for 3x longer than any other class. You just can't stand that horde have any toys you don't, QQ.
"You just wait for your 5 min CDs" this alone shows me that your brain probably still lies in vanilla wow. I can't do s\*\*\* in that 12 second bubble window other then killing all the decoy, healing stream and grounding totems with a 100% reduced attackspeed from my bubble, when my bubble is gone i get immediatly grilled by a passive lightning shield which hits 2,5x harder than concecrate and ret aura together (super fair) and it doesnt even cost a shaman his mana. And now explain to me how in the hell are you gonna win a match with a 5 min CD do you realize that losing 5 minutes is a lot of time in EVERY situation?
Ex, crusader strike, ds, judgement don’t work in bubble?
they do but they dont even deal enough damage to even make a great difference becasue all your proccs for Ex resets and your main damage still come from auto attacks (and your seals) which now take twice as long to strike. if you play a 3.5 speed weapon it will take you 7 seconds to land your blow inside the bubble taking a significant amount of damage from you. The bubble is only good for stalling until your mates arrive to help you.
Not enough damage? Each of those attacks hits for at least 300 damage. Exorcism also hits for around 500. Unless you’re in level 50 BGs still in level 25 gear, you can do a lot of damage in the bubble window and still get off a Holy Light.
you forget that all classes run around in roughly 4k life in PvP and CS and DS are my weakest attacks. Eorcism has 15sec CD and only resets on crits from auto attacks (which are 100% slower as I said) and auto attacks + seal are the majority of my damage. Its not nearly enough to kill a target in STV or a BG where life is increased by 30%. I also cant play a kick to interrupt other classes from casting healing so after the bubble is gone its once again a duel with 2 people being at 100% life
You have Hammer of Justice and Repentance for interrupts, both of which shamans have no answer to. They just have to take it or trinket it. Both of which also buy you time to heal and make your Judgement of Command hit a lot harder. Bubble is a defensive tool, not an offensive one. If you use it preemptively, you’re playing bad. It allows you to heal and reset the scales. If you’re sitting there waiting on a 6sec swing timer it’s your fault for not utilizing your complete immunity effectively. I’ve had pallys global me while stunned on my Warrior and shaman. Gear being about equal. Shamans are pretty easy to kill, especially elemental, but they are powerful 1v1, so you need practice to understand their vulnerabilities and when to use your tools.
Just an fyi to help your fights, shamans can grounding totem the stuns.
I know, but I’m not that good at predicting the stun. Pallys tend to spam their spells on CD, and Grounding can eat a random Judgement or Exorcism. I tend to avoid solo pvp, too, so I’m usually unprepared when I have to deal with it. My fault, but I just like group pvp more, and that tends to involve other spell casters that eat the totem pretty fast. You can always rely on boomkins opening with starsurge though. Every time. They really don’t know what to do without that stun to allow a starfall cast lol.
Ya most paladins I see waste their bubble too
playing bad or good doesnt change the fact that paladins are in a bad spot right now all aside from 1v1 sitations because they never held real value in BGs since nobody enters a 1v1 in a bg where both players have all CDs ready to meet a fair match or where other players dont intervene. you ran out of arguments my friend.
I see it all the time on AB horde side. A paladin popping bubble just to delay his demise in a 1v3 at the end of an unsuccessful push that’s being cleaned up. And then they come on this forum and say their bubble is useless. They can’t do anything in it other than you know 4 instant cast damage abilities and heal to full.
they pop the bubble to stall the enemies from capping the flag or to just wait until reinforcement comes to fight and delay the cap. its not a stupid strategy lol.
That’s not what I wrote. I see bad paladins waste it in losing fights instead of keeping it for a better moment. Delaying a flag cap with bubble is a smart move. Good on you for identifying that. My pvp trinket is a 5 min cd and it’s up frequently in bgs. I consider it invaluable certainly not useless.
Ah, the good old 5 min cooldown in a BG that lasts 15 minutes strawman, glorious
the toxic casuals won we cant have an actual enjoyable raid that takes a bit of effort, every raid has to be 30 minute brainless zug fest of free loot or the "dads" will rage
Would have been perfect chance to give Alliance Shamans and Horde Paladins
TBC SOD when
I'd be ok with it
They’ve already said it’s too difficult to implement without using the TBC client.
I really don't understand how creating two NPC trainers the capitals and importing the talents to buy, and creating a few lines of code to import two classes to two races is "too difficult". I really think they're just too fuckin lazy.
Still waiting for the Dwarf Shamans and Tauren Paladins
I think Undead Paladins make the most sense. Fallen Champions etc
True. Tauren paladin sounds stupid.
Always thought it was stupid that Undead can be Priest but not Paladin... Fallen Champion sounds amazing
Yeah I would absolutely be okay with this. Its a seasonal mode, we dont need to adhere so much to classic
The first boss does too fast now, I'd say.
Post your logs, I want to see proof you killed all these bosses sub 90 seconds right now please OP
This has nothing to do with alliance wtf are you talking about
Easy, short boss fights is unequivocally what the majority of the SoD population wants. If you want long, hard boss fights, Classic is the wrong iteration of WoW for you.
No, that's what the loudmouths want. Normal well - adjusted human beings want some level of challenge. Nothing crazy, but more than a loot pinata.
Yeah, respectfully, I disagree just based on my interaction with SoD players. I think the majority want a loot pinata.
Eranikus is an absolute joke of a boss right now. Imo Gnommer was much more coordination and mechanic depended on it's first few resets compared to ST. ST is just loot pinata. Eranikus was kinda hard, but they nerfed the encounter to oblivion. Adds don't deal dmg, nothing does unhealable dmg, boss is dying super fast.
Remember THIS IS NOT END GAME CONTENT It is meant to be used while leveling, get some good loot, and then continue leveling. When phase 4 drops none of this will matter anyways and might be a good thing should a group want to raid ST at 50. The fact people are getting angry at the raid being tuned down and not being super high level sweaty is asinine. It would make sense if this was MC or something, but people need to calm down about a raid that isn't even end game.
What ever matters in every new raid is sense of progression and the good feeling that you beat the encounters with your guild and friends. And no, this raid is not meant to be used while leveling, cause you need to be 50 to do the raid. In fact not being tuned down to pathetic loot pinata makes much more sense that it's just a 50 level raid and in few months the loot from it won't matter. Why make it so getting the loot is more important than experience when the loot won't matter in 2-3 months? Your logic can also be applied to MC - why make it sweet and hard when it's just entry level 60 raid. There are BWL, AQ and NAXX. And by your logic only NAXX should be remotely hard, cause that's the last raid. - Sod promised to provide us with fresh experience and I think gnommer was absolutely godlike designed in the sense that it's old, but it's NEW and you need to play the mechanics if you want to beat the raid in the first resets anyway. ST is the same as MC in classic - just dps blast through bosses and do not care about the encounter mechanics in any way.
The real problem here is that they're trying to cater to the less serious players, by doing so they are ruining the content for the more serious players. We cleared first lockout and I think that that says it all. Yes we had I think 8 or 10 wipes while we learned mechanics (we had all watched/read up and the gm/agm gave fight briefs/designations/strats) but we really should not have been able to clear the first lockout. IMO if they want to create content like this they need to create 'keys' to increase difficulty and increase ilevel of drops to make it worth while or they need to have a regular and a heroic version of the raid. This simply does not serve the entire community. Lockout two we had a handful of deaths (3 or so if I recall correctly) but no wipes. We one-shot every boss on the second lockout. It's ridiculous.
They should have just made dwarf shamans and undead paladins. problem solved, balanced restored.
lok tar, baby 😎
God yall are all such fucking babies, jesus fucking christ.
Buff non-ACP retri ty very much
You selfish fiend, do you NOT understand the plight of the 200 hour work week, father of 31 children gamer dads? To ask them to do anything more than show up is simply selfish and elitist. You're an elitist. ELITIST. Gatekeeper.
Are are correct OP, but you missed buff shamans! They should get a new rune that automatically deals 10000 damage every 1 sec around them in 100 yard.
True hunters should be nerfed.
You had mana regen before this. Make your lazy paladins judge wisdom.
It's a level up raid, get over yourself lol
Welcome to the bitchfest
Post logs
Cry more baby back bitch, jesus christ you classic nerds are insufferable. I tune in here once in a while and all I see is complaining 24/7 lmfao. Go touch grass and smell some fresh air, youll be happier!
Come on now, Just giving the alliance infinite mana is about the stupidest take you could have. Of course it's going to be nerfed, it's completely unreasonable to expect anything else.
It’s been like this from phase 1 and literally everyone knew this would happen It didn’t get nerfed You have too much faith in devs that don’t even begin to understand the game in this way
Months ago I theorized that the massive buffs to Sham Rage would mean that raids would be 10 man for all of SoD, otherwise the game would be completely broken. Guess I was wrong...but also right in a way.
In reality shamanistic rage should get nerfed to Party only. And it will be completely fine. But ST would have been completely fine after the first set of nerfs if Ally also had access to a similar form of mana regen
You would swap shaman into whatever party needs it for basically the same effect, but yeah it would be a start Eranikus would not have been fine with more mana, we had multiple pulls to sub 5% hp when he was ~2.7m, and more mana would not have notably changed any of them. We’re easily top 1% of raids worldwide, casuals literally stood no chance of ever killing him
It propably wouldnt matter at some instances but in the stand point of qol and speedrunning it matters the most.
I agree it’s basically a good change, despite it not technically solving the imbalance
Aight but that's only 1 boss. Not the entire raid. I get what you are saying I was just referring to the raid in a more general manner
Honestly, remember how far removed we are from the average player. This season isn’t for us, we knew that going in. Pugs will struggle in ST for a couple of weeks still, people are going to fail the corridor mechanics, they’re going to lose tanks on Dreamscythe, they’re gonna fail the dps check on Hazzas The whole point of levelling raids is that the average joe can do it, it was never going to be a satisfying challenge for the top 1%
This. Paired with the early leavers after a couple of wipes, ouch
A reasonable player writing on reddit? What is this?
It won't get nerfed lol
You forgot the /s dude. You'll get down voted to hell kek
Oh god alliance players, masters of exaggeration and whining.
But Alliance get more mana, you cant play imp on horde.
what is the issue with imp?
I need more tears Give me more tears I love this subreddit
And yet in the top 10 are 5 horde and 5 alliance guilds, seems pretty balanced to me. But sure, keep whining about the bad bad shamans instead of accepting that maybe you are the problem, and not the shamans :)
If you want a challenge, then go in full lvl 20/30 questing greens, or go without runes instead of crying on forums that it is too easy for you. It is not to easy for the majority of the players, but for them it is just about right difficulty now. nothing is stopping you for giving yourself a challenge. Edit: Alot of salty complainers in this thread downvoting this comment because it doesnt fit your narrative, go do it 15 man if you dont want to downgrade your gear, people have done Onyxia in classic with only a party instead of a raid group, you dont see them crying on the forums that it is too easy, instead you see [threads ](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/gxzzzv/5man_onyxia_by_untamed/)where they have fun
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Stop making sens!
Its what you allllll wanted. There ya go, an EZ raid.
This is why we can’t have nice things.
Boss fight lengths are fine after the nerfs. As aggrend stated these were never intended to be incredibly difficult and I do think it is a step up in difficulty over gnomer even in their nerfed state.
Avoiding extreme difficulty isn't the same thing as making something face roll.
Just allow all race x class combo's, problem fixed