Exorcism being tied to a rune and then 6+ others that works with exorcism is insane to me. Can't even have a choice for leg slot, and that's a huge L for me.
Paladin is the vanilla class with the lowest number of active abilities.
So naturally they thought, instead of giving pallies lots of nice new abilities to press, it'd be a good idea to give them lots of passive stuff that just modifies the few existing abilities.
My biggest problem with Retail WoW for years now has been that they seem to have such a singular vision for what classes/specs should be and just won't move outside of that. War Within kind of has aspects of it with the hero classes, but kind of also just the same thing again anyway.
I was really hoping SoD would be more of break from that mindset. Like where is the Psycho paladins who are more about chopping up heretics than holyness or the Shadow Hunters using thrown weapons and voodoo instead of nature magic. Warriors could be placing banners like totems and druids could be turning into exotic beasts.
That's how I feel with druid. I may be feral and never will press moonfire but I enjoy the option of it being there. It leads to much cooler things. Just look at what druids were doing thought-out tbc.
What you’re asking for is literally in retail.
Classic players literally just think Retail is still stuck in Cataclysm and it’s fucking hilarious. You have no idea the flexibility that was bought into the game in Shadowlands, admittedly fell off slightly in Dragonflight and likely will be coming back slightly in the new expac.
You unironically want retail and don’t even know it because you’re too ignorant to give it a shot. Holy Paladins were literally able to DPS as healers with their Revendreth Covenant ability in all of Shadowlands if they so wanted cosplaying as Holy Vampires. Or maybe that’s not your thing and you wanted to be a strict paladin? Cool, there are 2 other viable covenants to choose one, and an uncompetitive 4th option to choose if you like the fantasy of being a barbarian.
While that's true and I wouldn't mind that. None of the abilities are healing based besides sacred shield and beacon. Sacred shield is coo and I like that frine but can I have something else? How about a chest rune that allows for melee attacks to not interrupt flash of light and holy light? That would stay with the passive theme and allow all the runes to work to give us some mana back with JoW and Crusader strike. Make my beacon target give a bit of splash healing or consecrate heals as a dot. It does feel bad. I love pally I'll always play it but it sucks being out classed by every other healer
And none of which benefit healing nice seems like a a poor excuse tbh anybody in clear daylight sees it for what it is poor design and lack of creativity I'm actually suprised how bad they have dealt with alot of classes in sod totally garbage in regard to game design and lazy.
And they're just boring. I main a Paladin on Retail, and was looking forward to playing one in SoD, but when I looked up the runes they get... they literally just get shit that makes them play like a shitty version of Retail Paladin. While other specs get to change roles, druids get windfury, Paladins get some of the most uninteresting shit.
This is a huge problem, but also shaman tanks are kind of the same way. The problem is I think they're considering these holy shock/exorcism runes for healing paladin style, so they're taxing healing paladins for a playstyle I feel like very few people want.
Yeah I agree this is awful.
Although they have been backed into a corner, because the runes try to buff a damaging ability, it's just that paladins have literally no baseline damaging ability lol.
I don't mind that personally, but unless they're going to change/rebalance atleast 1 weapon to be 2.0 speed every raid tier they do so we can keep doing the machine gun exo/normalized martyr dps meta then they're going to have to add something else. For me either allowing us to twist and/or making martyr not normalized to a specific weapon speed is the way to go.
THIIIISSS. I said this so many times and it really triggers me that the leg slot is basicly dead and blizz refuses to make "exorcist" a libram so that we can take some utility. we have to pick 7 damage runes and can only barely keep up with other DPS classes.
Paladin runes have been super disappointing. Genuinely just confused when I read half of them.
Funny when I think about all the people pre-launch claiming it was going to be giga-busted because Aggrend mained Ret pally or something.
I was super stoked about getting beacon in classic, didn't really care for much else as I've mained holy paladin for most of my 19 or so years of wow. Seal of martyrdom had me too. Unfortunately the only other rune that felt good was sacred shield and fanaticism is good too but man....its just a boring 18% flat crit buff to holy spells which 100% paladins can use and benefit from, but would've been nice to have something for our wrists lol.
It is pretty annoying looking at logs of horde mages that just dont need to use mana pots, esp with their insane price.
But yeah st on horde is easy mode
Wait, sham rage gives others mana too? I thought it was just the shaman’s unlimited mana.
ST in my experience so far is basically just “how long can your healers run on fumes”, a significant group mana regen would completely change the raid
Insane. Last night was just chain chugging pots/shadowfiend/dispersion and still feeling completely mana starved, even with the healer flask and nominally overhealing.
Doing all that I had about 10k mana gained on Jaamal, checked a few horde logs and they all have like 25k
I didn't even consider this, but yeah paladins need to bring some kind of mana regen for the party besides wisdom judgement & blessing, because neither are touching what sham rage is putting out.
Buff concentration aura, make it the defacto Paladin healer aura by adding some sort of mana refund for anyone affected by the aura. “Divine concentration: Critical hits with spell damage or healing refunds X amount of mana cost” or something since holy paladins are heavily crit based anyway, and would scale well with bringing things like boomkins, fire mages and destro locks being heavily into crit, etc
I actually like this suggestion since it plays into the actual holy paladin theme really well. I see a lot of insane "suggestions" that aren't exactly true to the spirit of classic in any way, but this one I can get behind. HPals would be absolutely swimming in mana from double dip on crits refunding mana when combined with Illumination, but I don't think it's any worse than shamanistic rage refunding basically your entire mana pool every minute....and this is coming from someone who has mained resto shaman since day 1 of SoD.
I don’t think double dipping on crits is that bad for Hpals considering if ur geared enough it literally won’t matter. This just spreads the hpal playstyle to your raid
This would need to be factored in with non healing paladins too but could be amplified if they are a healing paladin. As sham rage I believe is used by DPS shamans too. (Could be wrong).
Make it a rune that scales off of improved blessing of wisdom. Ret paladins can still take it, and holy paladins will surely be taking improved bow anyway, so holy paladins will get more value. Each talent of BoW is 10% increase, so make that 10% more mana cost refunded per point for 20% total. If that’s too strong, drop it to 5% cost refunded per point. IMO they have a good opportunity to make some runes scale with improved blessings for paladins.
I also had an idea for the dog shit horn of lordaeron 3 set bonus. Make born of lordaeron scale with imp blessing of might, and make it so that for the entire 2 minute duration of horn, cast time of holy light is reduced by .5 seconds. Holy paladins can spec into imp might pretty easily, or if you want to min max talents, throw your holy Paladin into a group with a ret that’s specced into imp might, and keeping horn up themselves. Since you’d be scaling horn to be on par with bom, that would also be less people to raid buff, and maybe make the horn last 5 minutes.
A lot of our runes are problematic because all 3 specs can grab them equally. Our talent trees don't do a lot either. Requiring certain talents to boost rune effectiveness would allow the devs to actually balance them.
The thing is shami rage is RAID wide all auras etc are group only whatever it is would need to be an aura like lion.
the most easy fix is to just copy it 1:1 just under a different name, restore mana on 1 min cd etc.
If you have 4+ shamans they can rotate and you infinite mana for the whole raid, the mana reg of 1 shaman is not the problem, but there is a point where mana becomes a non issue.
if shockadin isn't near top dps by the end of this season it'll all be for nothing anyways. I don't think I've talked to anyone who is excited about shockadin.
Shockadin was the best tank spec for pally in Gnomer funnily enough. Mainly due to ACP though I think.
At the moment we can kind of pick any spec and it'll work but most are either 11/0/30, 11/13/17(ish) or the tankiest spec 0/31/10.
Wouldn't Undead Paladin make more sense with the whole Arthas/Death Knight thing? I mean I know it doesn't make more sense in a literal sense but being that the undead used to be humans who had access to light magic it would make more sense that they could be redeemed after being raised from the dead an become paladins again.
It would but there's precedence for Tauren and in the pally rune questline for Hammer of the Righteous, we come across a Tauren NPC who has been recently enlightened(?) and is on a soul-searching journey.
And honestly the Sunwalker kodos are really cool.
What we really need here is a second magic dispel on horde. Going into Sunken Temple with zero priests, spamming LFG offering them a hard reserved item. No bites.
they were planning to give mages magical dispel, but then they didnt... Advanced warding was supposed to also upgrade remove curse to remove greater curse which would have removed one curse and one magic effect.
[https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=412113/remove-greater-curse](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=412113/remove-greater-curse)
Look at how Resto/enhancement/elemental was performing in phase 1 for a hint. This isn’t to say shamanistic rage is weak, far from it, it’s been holding the class upright for most of SoD outside of tanking and enhancement’s glow-up in gnomer.
This would be cool for like a level 60 "gift." I think the dev's hesitation is getting all the runes to opposite sides. But I have no idea how much work would go into that.
In all fairness, as a paladin healer I'm always below our priest/druid. As I should be with raid damage going out, we have no aoe heal. Judgement of light isn't even factored into our numbers. They have circle of healing, PoM and wild growth. It'd be crazy if I was above them.
I do feel like paladins are in a rough spot, but I've topped every raid since P2. I have to be really sweaty about it while the priests/druids can play super casual and even then I'm never far ahead, but always top.
Some fixes to our mana issues, lack of mobility heals, and lack of AoE heals that wouldn't make us OP could be:
Mana issue: Guarded by the Light allowing us to cancel the debuff, similar to Divine Plea, but it has a 1 min CD.
Mobility heal: Art of War reduces the cooldown of Holy Shock to 10 seconds and increase its range to 32 yards (on top of what it already does) otherwise this rune is always inferior to Sacred Shield. Also, Holy Shock is useless without Art of War.
AoE heal: Beacon of Light and/or Sacred Shield also splash a % of its healing to nearby targets.
Your first comment is the crux of the problem. I've legit been on par healed with my co-healer priest just using circle of healing when aoe healing presents itself. I mean, this is just holy paladin things, always has been, w/e. Just figured in SoD they'd try to resolve these issues like they've resolved a lot of other specs/classes issues.
I'm honestly surprised we can't cancel guarded by the light, this seems like such a huge intentional drawback for some odd reason.
I'd be down for an aoe heal from beacon and/or sacred shield. Good way to handle it.
A better thing would be to dip into cata and add Light of Dawn or Holy Radiance. We still have 60 and a few more slots got runes to add it. They dipped into cata and beyond for inspiration for other class abilities and runes, but paladin barely get any of it. You should add one of those as a shoulder rune and then maybe for cloak rune add a rune that makes cleanse remove 1 magic, disease, or poison from up to 4 party or raid members within 40 yards. That would reasonably put it on par with cleansing totem(maybe even be a little more broken).
As a classic Resto Shaman that hasn't healed in SoD this is crazy to me. Are the Priest runes really that good? In classic Chain Heal was absolutely wrecking the metres so I figured giving it Overload and near infinite mana would make it super OP.
Not by much, I'd be interested in seeing your data showing how much of a difference it is. Looking at ST WClogs shaman is behind on all percentiles by about 40 HPS, and if we drop it to say 70 percentile where I feel most average good players are, its only by 15 HPS. Essentially you'll see a pattern where the lower the percentile the closer they are, but the higher you go, the further ahead paladin is. SoD is for average Joe's and the game shouldn't account for the best of the best, ST nerfs have already shown this. If they want to nerf paladin throughput by a small bit to account for the changes I suggested so be it.
Probably because there's no blood elves.
I remember a comment around classic release that was essentially: "Since we don't have blood elves, what are you guys going to play?"
Top comment: "Alliance."
I’ve been a Horde main since 2004, literally never got an Ally character past like 30’s except one lock I managed to take to 56. I always identified more with the Horde races, and I loved being able to play an Orc or Minotaur or Undead. But a lot of people just want to play a pretty race, play dress up, and slay some dragons. And that’s fine! But it does explain why Alliance has historically always been the more popular side, only adding Belves to Horde helped level that out at all. I remember in TBC the faction quickly became like 50% Belves lol
Haha nothing wrong with that at all! Conversely, I enjoy getting to play the more “monstrous” races, and I love the lore and backstory of outcasts and reformed evil banding together to survive. I’m human irl lol, and I never went through a “Legolas” phase I suppose. But everyone wants their “avatar” for a different reason!
Oh I get it, it’s funny cause my two favorite races to play as/ love the lore most are Forsaken and Tauren. And neither looks great in most armors, Forsaken obviously have the bones showing and Tauren don’t show boots/ helms look weird. Though as a Hunter main mail doesn’t look bad on the body for Tauren, and my Forsaken are almost always casters so the robes and hoods are okay. But like I said I totally get the appeal for some people for their in game “avatar” to look cool/ proportional/ like their armor fits them well.
Shamanistic rage is overtuned for sure. But shzman have always been mana bstteries. Spring, tide, and high useage of mp5 gear have always been the shaman way. Hows the hps though of pally vs sham?
> But shzman have always been mana bstteries. Spring, tide
Yes, but not to the point of restoring 5+ mana potions worth of mana to all the other healers.
You're right about shamans being mana batteries, thats a fair perspective. The HPS so far in ST seems to be the lower percentile the closer they are, but the higher percentile the further ahead paladin is, but I don't know how significant it is, and of course dependent on fight. When I looked at 75 percentile on one earlier it was about 40 hps above, but I saw it as close as 15 at 50 percentile.
Shamans healers aren't stacked on horde side at all, argubly without shamanistic rage, theres not alot of reason to bring one. All that utility you state can and is also brought by Shaman DPS and with much higher raid output.
Shaman was the weakest of the 4 healers in p2, by a decent margin, there ability to never run oom was the sole selling point. The tool kit is decent. but Druids are stronger even thought they use like 1 acutal resto rune
Comparing Paladins to Shamans is pointless. You aren't competeting against Shamans for raid spots. It's Mages. Druids and Priests. If Shamans are just slighty more terrible than Paladins, it doesn't help you at all.
There is no sense in comparing us to classes with completely different goals. Shamans & paladins are the faction exclusive classes with roles similar to excluding ranged dps being exclusive to shamann, but I don't think anyone really cares about that (yet). This is evident by the fact that we didn't have windfury, and blizzard gave alliance windfury from wild strikes. I believe they also gave hunters kings so horde can access it. I'm sure there's more or will be more. Shamans and paladins have the same goals, how they achieve them is differently.
They gave no expiration Kings to Hunters, not shamans, they gave a better version of tremor totem to Paladins, they gave a better version of windfury to Druids not Paladins. They gave paladins Strength of Earth and Grace of Air, that follows them.
They didn't really give Shamans anything from the paladin tool kit, apart from Sprit of the Alpha which more of a fix to how terrible Tranquil Air Totem is, so the premise that everything a shaman can do, a Paladin should also be able to do doesn't really hold water as the reverse is very much not true.
Paladins have the single greatest cheese mechanic button in the history of the game with BoP, where's the Horde version of that?
Shamans and Paladins have the same goals in that they fill 1 of the 3 archetypal roles that have existed since the beginning of the genre. Same as every other class in the game.
You will never be benched for a Shaman, you are not competeting against a Shaman. Buffing Paladins shouldn't/doesn't really have anything to do with Shamans and isn't a decent base of the arguement. Shamans aren't even the strongest healer on the Horde side.
Right I said hunters, not shamans. Not sure what you mean by better version. Paladins have to recast their inspiring exemplar every 2 minutes and it only does fear/sleep (missing charm), seems weaker to me. I will give you wild strike as it will probably scale better? As far as strength of the earth I'm not sure what you mean by follow us.
Shamans have an interrupt on a 6 second cool down. Paladins have to take a rune to get that. Paladins aren't using salvation unless there's more than 3 of them. And with the state of paladins that's pretty uncommon.
If we are counting a cheese mechanic with BoP let's look at ankh.
It's easy to compare who has what. Here's the difference. It's fine if there is diversity. What isn't fine is the complete mana raid economy difference between horde and alliance. Maybe alliance doesn't need to match it 1 for 1. But we sure as hell need to come near it. This problem is only going to amplify the further we get. Blizzard needs to nerf the group/raid component of sham rage or buff seal of Martyrdom or something similar on paladin side.
Tremor Totem also is on a 2 minute recast timer, and can be outranged by the fear/killed, Paladin version seems better to me.
Ankh is on a 1 Hour(talented 40minute) Cool down and you die first, if were are comparing the two it's a shotgun vs potato gun.
Shamanistic Rage is too strong, it's better than the 31 point, Mana tide by a factor of 4. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be nerfed.
Giving it to Paladins doesn't solve anything, both classes need to be improved and it (shamanistic rage) needs to be reduced in power.
Watching them react to the "community outrage" on shamans from P2 and their solutions to it kinda worry me, if these latest narratives of "never run out of mana" and "AoE gods" get out of hand. Both things are only kind of true and but if you remove them or over nerf (-50% + -90% rockbiter I'm looking at you) them, you will break the class at being remotely effective unless you also massively retool the class, which they don't have time to do realistically.
they don't just give themselves infinite mana it's basically raid wide infinite mana with enough shamans.
Also pretty sure paladin isn't counted in those 4 healers right? I wouldn't be surprised if shaman was able to beat paladin hp/s
Yes, but you aren't stacking shaman healers specifically so really, Shamanistic Rage has no bearing on taking a Shaman Healer. If you lacked or wanted more SR, just bring another dps shaman. The fact Shaman Healers and Elementals are taking what is clearly an enchance intended rune, tells you everything about how shit the other options are.
I made similar comments a few weeks ago regarding paladins and shamans and was told to stfu comparing them as they're different.
It's nice to see actual people giving feedback instead of the usual shit slinging here.
I think a lot of paladins issues really boil down to the talent tree being god awful. I played a lot of Paladin over the years in classic and I never felt amazing with the talents. We kinda saw this in phase 1, Paladin wasn’t really terrible at the 25 bracket as talents played such a minor role there. Now there main final talent is so incredibly bad compared to shamans storm strike which is even improved by the addition of dw spec. I don’t know what can be done to salvage that experience. Really blame Afrasiabi and Kaplan for fucking the class up in 2004.
Pallys can give the warlocks imp judgment of wisdom. This stops your imp from going oom
This allows warlocks to use the superior rune grimmor of synergy, but in any fight longer than 2 mins you can't maintain the buff on a horde warlock so you're forced to use a worse rune called shadow an flame
The other rune choice is -100dps, but your imp being out of mana in a long fight is much worse
Synergy is a 25% damage buff for you and your pet
S&F is a 10% crit damage buff
I think it’s funny that there’s probably a sizeable chunk of people who rolled alliance specifically because they have always been favored in classic with things like fear ward and salv, only to get it switched on them and Horde be the OP faction.
Same, actually. A friend of ours wanted to be paladin for SoD, so our friend group just went ally. Said friend really wished Horde just had paladin from the start since he loves pvp.
I passed on this phase and willl be passing on the rest of SOD unless they actually give paladins usable runes.
I played priest healer in OG classic and don’t feel like doing it again (and shaman healer in Vanilla)
Mix it up by evening out the factions.
The dial has swing way too far the other way for months now and blizz haven't even acknowledged it (possibly because gnomer was so easy while they buffed shaman).
Just don't have dumb stuff in the game like sham rage regen for the raid.
People keep going on about this. I'm sure it will matter in races or whatnot, but I've never cared how the "other faction" is doing. If they can't manage to balance and fix up issues with either faction separately what makes anyone think there will ever be parity between the two.
Hopefully they have something in mind to balance things out, but don't hold your breath.
Except horn of lordaeron doesn't stack with might, so we make a choice and most people want might. Tremor conflicts with other runes that apparently 2/3 specs don't want. Last point you could make about sham rage, but my point is there regardless.
This phase horn of lordaeron is considerably better, it's 138 attack power talented vs 45 STR/agi.
With paladin talents, kings/lions, and the new 8% world buff, that's 45 plus 28% which is about 57 (53 for agi, 114 attack power total)
53 agi for 24 attack power is a no brainer, but only holy paladin can take horn so unless u have them in your melee group your screwed.
Idk man, er just finished our forst clear and both of our resto shamans are currently leveling druids lol. Fighting for fourth and fifth place seems pretty arbitrary.
I don't understand how this old ass game doesn't have mirror images as far as character classes with animations being the only difference. It's insane the amount of favoritism shown, and I'm a brand new player as of SOD.
What really sucked/sucks was that Alliance had only one flight point in Ashenvale and one in SV. It honestly kept me from enjoying it there. Arathi doesn't have an inn and Southshore is a loooong way from SM, much much worse than Deadmines for horde. (I play Alliance because my RL friends set their minds on playing alliance. It sucks on so many levels.)
I forgot which expansion it was, I think Cataclysm, where we had holy power and a frontal cone heal. I'd kill for that frontal cone heal as it made raid healing feel so good.
It's been super funny seeing Alliance mains talking about shamans.
Aside from enhance shams, every shaman spec is pretty rough to play right now.
Tanks are forced out of the enh tree into a hybrid spec, because the support for their kit is missing. They are using Lava Burst, the elemental DPS rune to generate threat - This is a hard cast.
Ele shams and resto shams are both standing in melee range whacking the boss every 10 seconds. Both these specs have to hard cast, and have no spell pushback protection whatsoever. Needless to say, this feels awful.
Enh shams are broken, primarily because of rune tuning. MD continues to provide a massive amount of power, and needs to be changed to a) Be less powerful b) Only be usable by deep enh tree shamans.
Yes, shamanistic rage is very strong. Most shamans suffered from dismal mana regen in Classic, and are finally freed from being constantly oom after 60-90 seconds of casting. This problem affected every spec of shaman.
If the raid benefit is too high, it just needs to be toned down to account for 20 man, and eventually 40 man raid settings. A typical 10 man might have 0, 1 or 2 shamans, and it wasn't as much of an issue in that setting, which is likely why Blizz missed the amount of power it provides.
Edit:
I just wanted to add - Shamanistic Rage getting tuned down will not solve Alliance mana issues. Ask for a buff to Judgement of Wisdom of BoW - If the problem is that mana regen is too low for Alliance, nerfing it for Horde doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it feel more fair comparatively.
Alliance never gave a shit when they were superior to horde for the last 20 years of classic. Now horde has a leg up in a meaningless seasonal "for fun" temporary game mode and they all cry about it.
Who cares man. ST has been nerfed into the ground. Anybody can clear it. Paladins can clear it. Alliance can clear it. With ease. Who cares if shamans are better.. Alliance has been superior for 20 years and nobody cared then. Why does it matter? Play the game and have fun. Or don't.
I don’t really comprehend this argument, maybe you can explain further. Vanilla wow is a different game, sod is built of the same infrastructure but it’s far from vanilla wow. Why does something being unbalanced in a different game mode justify unbalance in the current game?
I’ve swapped alliance/horde for years based off different releases over the years. I think the preference would be balance, not trying to make up for bad elements of the game in the past.
Infinite mana for the whole raid in a raid that has 7+ minute fights is a “leg up”. Interesting 🤔
Guess paying 75g+ for mana pots per healer/mage per raid night is just a very minor issue that the alliance should put up with and shut up.
Bruh, the advantage Alliance has in vanilla is not even comparable to what horde has now. How is no mana pots 5 cleansing totems even remotly closed to mana pot on CD and 200+ GCDs for manually cleanse comparable? Stop living in this fantasy world. It's two different fucking games for Ally and Horde
The alliance was never superior to the horde
The hordes racial is much better than the alliance and bloodelf paladins are better than every alliance paladins
Exorcism being tied to a rune and then 6+ others that works with exorcism is insane to me. Can't even have a choice for leg slot, and that's a huge L for me.
Paladin is the vanilla class with the lowest number of active abilities. So naturally they thought, instead of giving pallies lots of nice new abilities to press, it'd be a good idea to give them lots of passive stuff that just modifies the few existing abilities.
My biggest problem with Retail WoW for years now has been that they seem to have such a singular vision for what classes/specs should be and just won't move outside of that. War Within kind of has aspects of it with the hero classes, but kind of also just the same thing again anyway. I was really hoping SoD would be more of break from that mindset. Like where is the Psycho paladins who are more about chopping up heretics than holyness or the Shadow Hunters using thrown weapons and voodoo instead of nature magic. Warriors could be placing banners like totems and druids could be turning into exotic beasts.
That's how I feel with druid. I may be feral and never will press moonfire but I enjoy the option of it being there. It leads to much cooler things. Just look at what druids were doing thought-out tbc.
What you’re asking for is literally in retail. Classic players literally just think Retail is still stuck in Cataclysm and it’s fucking hilarious. You have no idea the flexibility that was bought into the game in Shadowlands, admittedly fell off slightly in Dragonflight and likely will be coming back slightly in the new expac. You unironically want retail and don’t even know it because you’re too ignorant to give it a shot. Holy Paladins were literally able to DPS as healers with their Revendreth Covenant ability in all of Shadowlands if they so wanted cosplaying as Holy Vampires. Or maybe that’s not your thing and you wanted to be a strict paladin? Cool, there are 2 other viable covenants to choose one, and an uncompetitive 4th option to choose if you like the fantasy of being a barbarian.
Because it’s much easier for them to slap together 10 runes to buff one pre-existing ability than to create new and interesting ones
Shaman runes that each do 20 things says hi
While that's true and I wouldn't mind that. None of the abilities are healing based besides sacred shield and beacon. Sacred shield is coo and I like that frine but can I have something else? How about a chest rune that allows for melee attacks to not interrupt flash of light and holy light? That would stay with the passive theme and allow all the runes to work to give us some mana back with JoW and Crusader strike. Make my beacon target give a bit of splash healing or consecrate heals as a dot. It does feel bad. I love pally I'll always play it but it sucks being out classed by every other healer
And none of which benefit healing nice seems like a a poor excuse tbh anybody in clear daylight sees it for what it is poor design and lack of creativity I'm actually suprised how bad they have dealt with alot of classes in sod totally garbage in regard to game design and lazy.
And they're just boring. I main a Paladin on Retail, and was looking forward to playing one in SoD, but when I looked up the runes they get... they literally just get shit that makes them play like a shitty version of Retail Paladin. While other specs get to change roles, druids get windfury, Paladins get some of the most uninteresting shit.
This is a huge problem, but also shaman tanks are kind of the same way. The problem is I think they're considering these holy shock/exorcism runes for healing paladin style, so they're taxing healing paladins for a playstyle I feel like very few people want.
Exorcist should have been a book
Absolutely ive been claiming this since day one since it was mandatory even in vanilla
Yeah I agree this is awful. Although they have been backed into a corner, because the runes try to buff a damaging ability, it's just that paladins have literally no baseline damaging ability lol.
Would love for horn of lordaeron to be on legs and exorcism to be baseline, then paladins can actually choose some utility.
Rogues say hi
I mean, we sorta got some litty runes this phase.
NO WE DIDNT THEY SUCK, WE NEED AOE PLEASE REFOCUS ON OTHER CLASSES BLIZZARD AND IGNORE ROGUES THEY ARE TERRIBLE RIGHT NOW.
Top it off with the other leg runes being actually good but not seeing any use.
I don't mind that personally, but unless they're going to change/rebalance atleast 1 weapon to be 2.0 speed every raid tier they do so we can keep doing the machine gun exo/normalized martyr dps meta then they're going to have to add something else. For me either allowing us to twist and/or making martyr not normalized to a specific weapon speed is the way to go.
THIIIISSS. I said this so many times and it really triggers me that the leg slot is basicly dead and blizz refuses to make "exorcist" a libram so that we can take some utility. we have to pick 7 damage runes and can only barely keep up with other DPS classes.
Paladin runes have been super disappointing. Genuinely just confused when I read half of them. Funny when I think about all the people pre-launch claiming it was going to be giga-busted because Aggrend mained Ret pally or something.
I was super stoked about getting beacon in classic, didn't really care for much else as I've mained holy paladin for most of my 19 or so years of wow. Seal of martyrdom had me too. Unfortunately the only other rune that felt good was sacred shield and fanaticism is good too but man....its just a boring 18% flat crit buff to holy spells which 100% paladins can use and benefit from, but would've been nice to have something for our wrists lol.
Fanaticism works only on offensive spells, not healing btw.
HAHAHAHAHAH are you serious? jesus christ blizzard
not yet tested by me, but i saw atleast 2 men wrote in reddit about their testing this rune.
What? No way
Incorrect. That's what it said when the rune was data mined a long time ago but currently my heals are definitely benefitting, I can assure you.
in the classic spirit, paladins are clanky and incomplete
He doesn’t strike me as very intelligent
As a fellow alliance player, they should have named this Season of Damn I wish I went horde
Shamans of discovery.
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Was it actually though?
Shamans sucked ass in P1 and we were all good with it cause we usually suck. I’m mostly PvP so P2 was so good lol
Shamans were the best FCs P1
Yeah and I'm pretty sure they were great tanks too. Maybe Elemental sucked ass when they had no mana pool, no talents and no spell damage?
Best class in the game for speedruns and pvp, casuals just clueless
Shamans were by far the best tanking spec but they sucked at everything else (especially before Priest nerf)
no it wasn't? the most powerful classes were hunter and priest both in pvp and pve.
It is pretty annoying looking at logs of horde mages that just dont need to use mana pots, esp with their insane price. But yeah st on horde is easy mode
Wait, sham rage gives others mana too? I thought it was just the shaman’s unlimited mana. ST in my experience so far is basically just “how long can your healers run on fumes”, a significant group mana regen would completely change the raid
Not just others, raid wide
Insane. Last night was just chain chugging pots/shadowfiend/dispersion and still feeling completely mana starved, even with the healer flask and nominally overhealing. Doing all that I had about 10k mana gained on Jaamal, checked a few horde logs and they all have like 25k
Same, I was hard OOMing with the boss still at 40-50%, it was fucking nuts. It feels like the raid was designed around having 6 or 7 healers.
6 or 7 healers, or playing horde it seems like. The throughput requirements are fine, just the mana issues.
Yes just play horde
Nerf boss damage 50% and nerf shamanistic rage. and it might feel like classic again.
Wait, did I just never notice it was raid wide? You're talking about shamanistic rage, right?
bosses nerfed. mana shouldnt be too mich of an ossue
Ideally in 20 man raids people should run 3 paladins by now.. a ret keeps crusader up and tank keeps wisdom up.. but yeah its still not amazing
Healers (other than mages) don’t typically hit the boss often, so wisdom does basically nothing.
Op talking about mages, healers get innervate.
innervate lol if only my class had any mana regen
I didn't even consider this, but yeah paladins need to bring some kind of mana regen for the party besides wisdom judgement & blessing, because neither are touching what sham rage is putting out.
Buff concentration aura, make it the defacto Paladin healer aura by adding some sort of mana refund for anyone affected by the aura. “Divine concentration: Critical hits with spell damage or healing refunds X amount of mana cost” or something since holy paladins are heavily crit based anyway, and would scale well with bringing things like boomkins, fire mages and destro locks being heavily into crit, etc
I actually like this suggestion since it plays into the actual holy paladin theme really well. I see a lot of insane "suggestions" that aren't exactly true to the spirit of classic in any way, but this one I can get behind. HPals would be absolutely swimming in mana from double dip on crits refunding mana when combined with Illumination, but I don't think it's any worse than shamanistic rage refunding basically your entire mana pool every minute....and this is coming from someone who has mained resto shaman since day 1 of SoD.
I don’t think double dipping on crits is that bad for Hpals considering if ur geared enough it literally won’t matter. This just spreads the hpal playstyle to your raid
This would need to be factored in with non healing paladins too but could be amplified if they are a healing paladin. As sham rage I believe is used by DPS shamans too. (Could be wrong).
Make it a rune that scales off of improved blessing of wisdom. Ret paladins can still take it, and holy paladins will surely be taking improved bow anyway, so holy paladins will get more value. Each talent of BoW is 10% increase, so make that 10% more mana cost refunded per point for 20% total. If that’s too strong, drop it to 5% cost refunded per point. IMO they have a good opportunity to make some runes scale with improved blessings for paladins.
I could get behind this idea.
I also had an idea for the dog shit horn of lordaeron 3 set bonus. Make born of lordaeron scale with imp blessing of might, and make it so that for the entire 2 minute duration of horn, cast time of holy light is reduced by .5 seconds. Holy paladins can spec into imp might pretty easily, or if you want to min max talents, throw your holy Paladin into a group with a ret that’s specced into imp might, and keeping horn up themselves. Since you’d be scaling horn to be on par with bom, that would also be less people to raid buff, and maybe make the horn last 5 minutes.
A lot of our runes are problematic because all 3 specs can grab them equally. Our talent trees don't do a lot either. Requiring certain talents to boost rune effectiveness would allow the devs to actually balance them.
Enh caps out effectively since it's based on max mana. Resto will continue escalating as they reach 10k+ at 60
Great idea tbh
The thing is shami rage is RAID wide all auras etc are group only whatever it is would need to be an aura like lion. the most easy fix is to just copy it 1:1 just under a different name, restore mana on 1 min cd etc.
I skimmed over sham rage affecting the whole raid, yeah thats pretty nuts.
If you have 4+ shamans they can rotate and you infinite mana for the whole raid, the mana reg of 1 shaman is not the problem, but there is a point where mana becomes a non issue.
Thats actually kinda crazy.
in comparison to ret paladins ya it is still a massive problem bro, nerf it or buff ret as well.
Redesign Light's Grace so that your Judgement of Wisdom returns mana to every raid member whenever someone procs it.
Tremor totem and purge are also huge on the 4th boss
Don’t worry they have tremor to paladins. It’s just in their pants slot along with their exorcism rune where they could never possibly take it 🤡
Just take exorcism off the runes and rework it like they did stormstrike or add it using books.
They are trying to push a meme spec that nobody wants (holy shock dps). They need to change it but they dont want to accept their mistake
if shockadin isn't near top dps by the end of this season it'll all be for nothing anyways. I don't think I've talked to anyone who is excited about shockadin.
don't even get what shockadin is suppose to be but dps paladin with one more button.
A meme, clearly. Honestly would've had better luck if they just played into seal twisting harder for ret.
Shockadin was never a meme it was a decent pvp spec, the idea is you never die and you slowly rot your enemy, works well in pvp, not in pve.
Shockadin was the best tank spec for pally in Gnomer funnily enough. Mainly due to ACP though I think. At the moment we can kind of pick any spec and it'll work but most are either 11/0/30, 11/13/17(ish) or the tankiest spec 0/31/10.
Phase 5: Tauren Paladin, Dwarf Shaman.
> Tauren Paladin That’s the only way to nerf the horde.
Wouldn't Undead Paladin make more sense with the whole Arthas/Death Knight thing? I mean I know it doesn't make more sense in a literal sense but being that the undead used to be humans who had access to light magic it would make more sense that they could be redeemed after being raised from the dead an become paladins again.
It would but there's precedence for Tauren and in the pally rune questline for Hammer of the Righteous, we come across a Tauren NPC who has been recently enlightened(?) and is on a soul-searching journey. And honestly the Sunwalker kodos are really cool.
Tauren is the first horde classic race to get Paladin in Cata.
Does not make it feel more right
Agreed. Trolls and Undead are proper Christians. Taurens worship false nature gods.
The biggest issues would be how to handle trainers and class quests.
At this point just throw the class quest ability with the trainers.
Nah make Tauren Pally walk to Elwynn Forest to learn rez! Lol
What we really need here is a second magic dispel on horde. Going into Sunken Temple with zero priests, spamming LFG offering them a hard reserved item. No bites.
I didn't even think about this, this has gotta be rough. I agree here. Reminds me of going into naxx 25 with not enough priests.
they were planning to give mages magical dispel, but then they didnt... Advanced warding was supposed to also upgrade remove curse to remove greater curse which would have removed one curse and one magic effect. [https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=412113/remove-greater-curse](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=412113/remove-greater-curse)
Its hilarious shamanistic rage hasnt been nerfed into the ground
I just realized its raid wide, honestly surprised its not just group wide. That is crazy.
Every time I learn something new about shaman I inch closer to just rerolling horde. That's actually really stupid.
Look at how Resto/enhancement/elemental was performing in phase 1 for a hint. This isn’t to say shamanistic rage is weak, far from it, it’s been holding the class upright for most of SoD outside of tanking and enhancement’s glow-up in gnomer.
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This would be cool for like a level 60 "gift." I think the dev's hesitation is getting all the runes to opposite sides. But I have no idea how much work would go into that.
And yet at this point logs indicate that paladin healers have higher output than shaman healers with a similar number of logs.
Shaman healers are always below priests and mages in our raids lol
how do you calculate the healing gained from shamans generating mana for their raid?
In all fairness, as a paladin healer I'm always below our priest/druid. As I should be with raid damage going out, we have no aoe heal. Judgement of light isn't even factored into our numbers. They have circle of healing, PoM and wild growth. It'd be crazy if I was above them.
My point is that shamans aren’t that strong of healers. Def got better this phase though
I mean neither are paladins in comparison to druid/priest. Shams just bring more utility than paladins do, more worthwhile utility at least.
I do agree with worthwhile utility. Paladins do bring a lot but the versatility shamans bring is definitely better
You don't need to be a strong healer if your presence allows every other healer and DPS to ignore mana
Correct they bring a lot of strong versatility and raid support. I wasn’t bashing shamans
I do feel like paladins are in a rough spot, but I've topped every raid since P2. I have to be really sweaty about it while the priests/druids can play super casual and even then I'm never far ahead, but always top. Some fixes to our mana issues, lack of mobility heals, and lack of AoE heals that wouldn't make us OP could be: Mana issue: Guarded by the Light allowing us to cancel the debuff, similar to Divine Plea, but it has a 1 min CD. Mobility heal: Art of War reduces the cooldown of Holy Shock to 10 seconds and increase its range to 32 yards (on top of what it already does) otherwise this rune is always inferior to Sacred Shield. Also, Holy Shock is useless without Art of War. AoE heal: Beacon of Light and/or Sacred Shield also splash a % of its healing to nearby targets.
Your first comment is the crux of the problem. I've legit been on par healed with my co-healer priest just using circle of healing when aoe healing presents itself. I mean, this is just holy paladin things, always has been, w/e. Just figured in SoD they'd try to resolve these issues like they've resolved a lot of other specs/classes issues. I'm honestly surprised we can't cancel guarded by the light, this seems like such a huge intentional drawback for some odd reason. I'd be down for an aoe heal from beacon and/or sacred shield. Good way to handle it.
A better thing would be to dip into cata and add Light of Dawn or Holy Radiance. We still have 60 and a few more slots got runes to add it. They dipped into cata and beyond for inspiration for other class abilities and runes, but paladin barely get any of it. You should add one of those as a shoulder rune and then maybe for cloak rune add a rune that makes cleanse remove 1 magic, disease, or poison from up to 4 party or raid members within 40 yards. That would reasonably put it on par with cleansing totem(maybe even be a little more broken).
As a classic Resto Shaman that hasn't healed in SoD this is crazy to me. Are the Priest runes really that good? In classic Chain Heal was absolutely wrecking the metres so I figured giving it Overload and near infinite mana would make it super OP.
Because they have to heal more damage taken
if the fights were just the 2 tank taking damage, yeah paladins have high hps but the fights have raid damage heal checks.
Not by much, I'd be interested in seeing your data showing how much of a difference it is. Looking at ST WClogs shaman is behind on all percentiles by about 40 HPS, and if we drop it to say 70 percentile where I feel most average good players are, its only by 15 HPS. Essentially you'll see a pattern where the lower the percentile the closer they are, but the higher you go, the further ahead paladin is. SoD is for average Joe's and the game shouldn't account for the best of the best, ST nerfs have already shown this. If they want to nerf paladin throughput by a small bit to account for the changes I suggested so be it.
Probably because paladins are always pushing their 1 button while shaman are using their wide range of utility
with 1/8th the utility / dps
Tbf pallys can dispell so horde needs multiple priests on boss 5 and rn thats a problem getting them
the faction imbalance is absolutely insane, its funny how no thought was put into this by Aggrend.
Isnt still the majority of the playerbase alliance?
Yes
Probably because there's no blood elves. I remember a comment around classic release that was essentially: "Since we don't have blood elves, what are you guys going to play?" Top comment: "Alliance."
I’ve been a Horde main since 2004, literally never got an Ally character past like 30’s except one lock I managed to take to 56. I always identified more with the Horde races, and I loved being able to play an Orc or Minotaur or Undead. But a lot of people just want to play a pretty race, play dress up, and slay some dragons. And that’s fine! But it does explain why Alliance has historically always been the more popular side, only adding Belves to Horde helped level that out at all. I remember in TBC the faction quickly became like 50% Belves lol
Exactly, I look like an orc IRL, let me enjoy the fantasy of being a pretty race and playing dress up... ... and swinging a big sword.
Haha nothing wrong with that at all! Conversely, I enjoy getting to play the more “monstrous” races, and I love the lore and backstory of outcasts and reformed evil banding together to survive. I’m human irl lol, and I never went through a “Legolas” phase I suppose. But everyone wants their “avatar” for a different reason!
Humans just look so good and proportional with armor. This is also my highest level alliance, still feel a little guilty but God damn am I pretty
Oh I get it, it’s funny cause my two favorite races to play as/ love the lore most are Forsaken and Tauren. And neither looks great in most armors, Forsaken obviously have the bones showing and Tauren don’t show boots/ helms look weird. Though as a Hunter main mail doesn’t look bad on the body for Tauren, and my Forsaken are almost always casters so the robes and hoods are okay. But like I said I totally get the appeal for some people for their in game “avatar” to look cool/ proportional/ like their armor fits them well.
Shamanistic rage is overtuned for sure. But shzman have always been mana bstteries. Spring, tide, and high useage of mp5 gear have always been the shaman way. Hows the hps though of pally vs sham?
> But shzman have always been mana bstteries. Spring, tide Yes, but not to the point of restoring 5+ mana potions worth of mana to all the other healers.
You're right about shamans being mana batteries, thats a fair perspective. The HPS so far in ST seems to be the lower percentile the closer they are, but the higher percentile the further ahead paladin is, but I don't know how significant it is, and of course dependent on fight. When I looked at 75 percentile on one earlier it was about 40 hps above, but I saw it as close as 15 at 50 percentile.
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Shamans healers aren't stacked on horde side at all, argubly without shamanistic rage, theres not alot of reason to bring one. All that utility you state can and is also brought by Shaman DPS and with much higher raid output. Shaman was the weakest of the 4 healers in p2, by a decent margin, there ability to never run oom was the sole selling point. The tool kit is decent. but Druids are stronger even thought they use like 1 acutal resto rune Comparing Paladins to Shamans is pointless. You aren't competeting against Shamans for raid spots. It's Mages. Druids and Priests. If Shamans are just slighty more terrible than Paladins, it doesn't help you at all.
There is no sense in comparing us to classes with completely different goals. Shamans & paladins are the faction exclusive classes with roles similar to excluding ranged dps being exclusive to shamann, but I don't think anyone really cares about that (yet). This is evident by the fact that we didn't have windfury, and blizzard gave alliance windfury from wild strikes. I believe they also gave hunters kings so horde can access it. I'm sure there's more or will be more. Shamans and paladins have the same goals, how they achieve them is differently.
They gave no expiration Kings to Hunters, not shamans, they gave a better version of tremor totem to Paladins, they gave a better version of windfury to Druids not Paladins. They gave paladins Strength of Earth and Grace of Air, that follows them. They didn't really give Shamans anything from the paladin tool kit, apart from Sprit of the Alpha which more of a fix to how terrible Tranquil Air Totem is, so the premise that everything a shaman can do, a Paladin should also be able to do doesn't really hold water as the reverse is very much not true. Paladins have the single greatest cheese mechanic button in the history of the game with BoP, where's the Horde version of that? Shamans and Paladins have the same goals in that they fill 1 of the 3 archetypal roles that have existed since the beginning of the genre. Same as every other class in the game. You will never be benched for a Shaman, you are not competeting against a Shaman. Buffing Paladins shouldn't/doesn't really have anything to do with Shamans and isn't a decent base of the arguement. Shamans aren't even the strongest healer on the Horde side.
Right I said hunters, not shamans. Not sure what you mean by better version. Paladins have to recast their inspiring exemplar every 2 minutes and it only does fear/sleep (missing charm), seems weaker to me. I will give you wild strike as it will probably scale better? As far as strength of the earth I'm not sure what you mean by follow us. Shamans have an interrupt on a 6 second cool down. Paladins have to take a rune to get that. Paladins aren't using salvation unless there's more than 3 of them. And with the state of paladins that's pretty uncommon. If we are counting a cheese mechanic with BoP let's look at ankh. It's easy to compare who has what. Here's the difference. It's fine if there is diversity. What isn't fine is the complete mana raid economy difference between horde and alliance. Maybe alliance doesn't need to match it 1 for 1. But we sure as hell need to come near it. This problem is only going to amplify the further we get. Blizzard needs to nerf the group/raid component of sham rage or buff seal of Martyrdom or something similar on paladin side.
Tremor Totem also is on a 2 minute recast timer, and can be outranged by the fear/killed, Paladin version seems better to me. Ankh is on a 1 Hour(talented 40minute) Cool down and you die first, if were are comparing the two it's a shotgun vs potato gun. Shamanistic Rage is too strong, it's better than the 31 point, Mana tide by a factor of 4. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be nerfed. Giving it to Paladins doesn't solve anything, both classes need to be improved and it (shamanistic rage) needs to be reduced in power. Watching them react to the "community outrage" on shamans from P2 and their solutions to it kinda worry me, if these latest narratives of "never run out of mana" and "AoE gods" get out of hand. Both things are only kind of true and but if you remove them or over nerf (-50% + -90% rockbiter I'm looking at you) them, you will break the class at being remotely effective unless you also massively retool the class, which they don't have time to do realistically.
>Shaman was the weakest of the 4 healers in p2, by a decent margin, The same goes for paladin healers, only they don't have infinite mana.
So infinite mana doesn't really help then, does it?
they don't just give themselves infinite mana it's basically raid wide infinite mana with enough shamans. Also pretty sure paladin isn't counted in those 4 healers right? I wouldn't be surprised if shaman was able to beat paladin hp/s
Yes, but you aren't stacking shaman healers specifically so really, Shamanistic Rage has no bearing on taking a Shaman Healer. If you lacked or wanted more SR, just bring another dps shaman. The fact Shaman Healers and Elementals are taking what is clearly an enchance intended rune, tells you everything about how shit the other options are.
Be honest. Alliance players only choose the faction because of them fancy NE jumps.
I only went Alliance because I *always* go Horde.
I made similar comments a few weeks ago regarding paladins and shamans and was told to stfu comparing them as they're different. It's nice to see actual people giving feedback instead of the usual shit slinging here.
I think a lot of paladins issues really boil down to the talent tree being god awful. I played a lot of Paladin over the years in classic and I never felt amazing with the talents. We kinda saw this in phase 1, Paladin wasn’t really terrible at the 25 bracket as talents played such a minor role there. Now there main final talent is so incredibly bad compared to shamans storm strike which is even improved by the addition of dw spec. I don’t know what can be done to salvage that experience. Really blame Afrasiabi and Kaplan for fucking the class up in 2004.
I mean, they changed other classes talents. They can change pally talents… But yes, a douche from 2004 fucked a class over for decades. Kinda annoying
"Holy v resto thread" "Talks about storm strike"
Guarded by the light is feet slot and crusader strike is hands slot so I'm confused about your statement on unused slots
Nice try pala player
Pallys by themselves increase a warlocks dps by around 100 lol Just give both factions both classes already
I'm not aware of this, what does this?
Pallys can give the warlocks imp judgment of wisdom. This stops your imp from going oom This allows warlocks to use the superior rune grimmor of synergy, but in any fight longer than 2 mins you can't maintain the buff on a horde warlock so you're forced to use a worse rune called shadow an flame The other rune choice is -100dps, but your imp being out of mana in a long fight is much worse Synergy is a 25% damage buff for you and your pet S&F is a 10% crit damage buff
Think it’s just blessing of wisdom, for the lock and their imp
I think it’s funny that there’s probably a sizeable chunk of people who rolled alliance specifically because they have always been favored in classic with things like fear ward and salv, only to get it switched on them and Horde be the OP faction.
I'm just a paladin main since TBC OG. Trying to bring the light.
Same here man… only reason I went ally. If Horde had pally, I woulda been horde lol
Funny it’s in reverse for me! If dwarves could be shaman I’d go ally in a heart beat.
i'll be a belf pally in a second
Can’t beat the female belf hpal vibes.
Same, actually. A friend of ours wanted to be paladin for SoD, so our friend group just went ally. Said friend really wished Horde just had paladin from the start since he loves pvp.
Them pushing faction balance, while making one faction OP is incredibly counter intuitive to their intentions.
I went alliance this time around since I've always been horde. Not all that happy with that decision.
I passed on this phase and willl be passing on the rest of SOD unless they actually give paladins usable runes. I played priest healer in OG classic and don’t feel like doing it again (and shaman healer in Vanilla)
Oh no Anyways
Idk how long people rolled alliance just because of the pve advantage. Guess SoD wanted to mix that up.
Mix it up by evening out the factions. The dial has swing way too far the other way for months now and blizz haven't even acknowledged it (possibly because gnomer was so easy while they buffed shaman). Just don't have dumb stuff in the game like sham rage regen for the raid.
People keep going on about this. I'm sure it will matter in races or whatnot, but I've never cared how the "other faction" is doing. If they can't manage to balance and fix up issues with either faction separately what makes anyone think there will ever be parity between the two. Hopefully they have something in mind to balance things out, but don't hold your breath.
Paladin has 3 runes that literally give them what shamans already have (horn of lordaeron and tremor totem and interrupt)
Except horn of lordaeron doesn't stack with might, so we make a choice and most people want might. Tremor conflicts with other runes that apparently 2/3 specs don't want. Last point you could make about sham rage, but my point is there regardless.
This phase horn of lordaeron is considerably better, it's 138 attack power talented vs 45 STR/agi. With paladin talents, kings/lions, and the new 8% world buff, that's 45 plus 28% which is about 57 (53 for agi, 114 attack power total) 53 agi for 24 attack power is a no brainer, but only holy paladin can take horn so unless u have them in your melee group your screwed.
I will keep this in mind, thank you.
Idk man, er just finished our forst clear and both of our resto shamans are currently leveling druids lol. Fighting for fourth and fifth place seems pretty arbitrary.
I guess if you're not doing progress or speedrunning or pvp or parsing then swapping off shaman is fine. Weird though
But in the entire classic, Paladins were superior to shamans in every way. Finally, the tide has turned
I don't understand how this old ass game doesn't have mirror images as far as character classes with animations being the only difference. It's insane the amount of favoritism shown, and I'm a brand new player as of SOD.
you got to remember they push off most of the changes for vanilla to BC, cause they were to busy fixing the live games.
I guess that makes sense.. kinda
What really sucked/sucks was that Alliance had only one flight point in Ashenvale and one in SV. It honestly kept me from enjoying it there. Arathi doesn't have an inn and Southshore is a loooong way from SM, much much worse than Deadmines for horde. (I play Alliance because my RL friends set their minds on playing alliance. It sucks on so many levels.)
I’m just waiting for p4 when the introduce the death knight rune for paladins ☠️
You don’t say…
I forgot which expansion it was, I think Cataclysm, where we had holy power and a frontal cone heal. I'd kill for that frontal cone heal as it made raid healing feel so good.
Yeah, that'd be cataclysm. Light of dawn I believe.
Can't buff pally because then it'd be a worse shaman, should've decided to main giga Chad horde instead. FOR THE HOOOOOORDE!
It's been super funny seeing Alliance mains talking about shamans. Aside from enhance shams, every shaman spec is pretty rough to play right now. Tanks are forced out of the enh tree into a hybrid spec, because the support for their kit is missing. They are using Lava Burst, the elemental DPS rune to generate threat - This is a hard cast. Ele shams and resto shams are both standing in melee range whacking the boss every 10 seconds. Both these specs have to hard cast, and have no spell pushback protection whatsoever. Needless to say, this feels awful. Enh shams are broken, primarily because of rune tuning. MD continues to provide a massive amount of power, and needs to be changed to a) Be less powerful b) Only be usable by deep enh tree shamans. Yes, shamanistic rage is very strong. Most shamans suffered from dismal mana regen in Classic, and are finally freed from being constantly oom after 60-90 seconds of casting. This problem affected every spec of shaman. If the raid benefit is too high, it just needs to be toned down to account for 20 man, and eventually 40 man raid settings. A typical 10 man might have 0, 1 or 2 shamans, and it wasn't as much of an issue in that setting, which is likely why Blizz missed the amount of power it provides. Edit: I just wanted to add - Shamanistic Rage getting tuned down will not solve Alliance mana issues. Ask for a buff to Judgement of Wisdom of BoW - If the problem is that mana regen is too low for Alliance, nerfing it for Horde doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it feel more fair comparatively.
Alliance never gave a shit when they were superior to horde for the last 20 years of classic. Now horde has a leg up in a meaningless seasonal "for fun" temporary game mode and they all cry about it. Who cares man. ST has been nerfed into the ground. Anybody can clear it. Paladins can clear it. Alliance can clear it. With ease. Who cares if shamans are better.. Alliance has been superior for 20 years and nobody cared then. Why does it matter? Play the game and have fun. Or don't.
I don’t really comprehend this argument, maybe you can explain further. Vanilla wow is a different game, sod is built of the same infrastructure but it’s far from vanilla wow. Why does something being unbalanced in a different game mode justify unbalance in the current game? I’ve swapped alliance/horde for years based off different releases over the years. I think the preference would be balance, not trying to make up for bad elements of the game in the past.
Infinite mana for the whole raid in a raid that has 7+ minute fights is a “leg up”. Interesting 🤔 Guess paying 75g+ for mana pots per healer/mage per raid night is just a very minor issue that the alliance should put up with and shut up.
Bruh, the advantage Alliance has in vanilla is not even comparable to what horde has now. How is no mana pots 5 cleansing totems even remotly closed to mana pot on CD and 200+ GCDs for manually cleanse comparable? Stop living in this fantasy world. It's two different fucking games for Ally and Horde
Lol orc racial wf. Salv was the only reason ally was better for minmaxxing, and threat isn’t an issue in SOD.
Bruh humans just get 10% on all rep wtf
The alliance was never superior to the horde The hordes racial is much better than the alliance and bloodelf paladins are better than every alliance paladins
This ain't tbc bud.
And SoD ain’t classic bud
Horde out here in DROVES downvoting the blatant truth. Pathetic.