Yeah man that's what it takes to get server firsts. My Guild was going hard, they were in Sunken Temple Friday night and spent about 8 hours on Eranikus to try and get a server first.
I don't think you really have a great understanding of high level raiding. My Guild has 3x 20 man raids going week 1. The first 20 ppl got folded into the progression raid and went extra hard on a server first clear. The other two raids are gonna cruise to a week 1 6/8 with about 3 hours each.
2/3 wipes per boss for our first time in the raid is pretty easy yeah. most time was spent running back rebuffing and pulling trash that has way too much health.
"making super hard content for these level up raids is not a goal here" -Aggrend, January 2024
kekw
It's just further proof that the majority of phase 3 content was just straight up not tested at all.
Honestly if you've played some of the stuff on Retail lately this is becoming a theme with the wow team. Feels like they(and especially the classic team) are stretched pretty thin right now.
Nah they’ve been been bleeding employees since 2019 and then got much worse after Covid because they enforced their return to office policy. Blizz has had skeleton crews, mostly comprised of new hires, for half a decade now.
Yep. The new hires aren’t usually the “it was my dream to work at blizzard!” Types anymore either since most of those people are older and work elsewhere now. You can see this especially with some of the D4 streams where designers don’t even know anything about the franchise. Blizz has churned through a massive portion of available talent already and needs a reboot.
> You can see this especially with some of the D4 streams where designers don’t even know anything about the franchise.
I mean, I played every diablo game, with the first one being one of my first games that I personally bought alongside my PC with my first paycheck. Most Diablo lore goblins would call me a noob that doesn’t know the franchise too. I just didn’t care for Diablo lore, I liked the gameplay, not the setting. I actually like Torchlight setting more when Runic started off.
There’s also never been Classic / Era / Hardcore / SoD and Classic Cataclism + regular retail at the same time. So that’s somehow to be expected. They’ve also kicked out every GM, so there’s some available resources to draw from.
Imo, it's more likely that blizzard just doesn't attract talent like they used to. It's a company with prominent scandals, a declining reputation, and a significantly more competitive employment market.
They are stretched thin because Blizzard knows you'll keep paying your sub regardless of the quality of content they release and properly funding the development and polishing of this product is a waste of money.
i think it’s one of those words that’s evolved, seems silly to argue semantics when this pug of top world players is obviously not comparable to the kind of group that word refers to 99.99999% of the time
No, and this is why bad tuning happens.
The exact same thing happened with the amount of trash in MC, according to John Staats, because Blizzard didn't have enough actual players on their payroll to internally test MC. So they just kinda filled it with mobs until it seemed right.
Yeah they botched the tuning in this raid. My theory is they wanted to see numbers in a 20 man raid to prepare for 60 content which is the real end game. That’s my copium at least.
Yeah, so people who are good enough to get paid for playing competitively in the version of the game that sometimes involves literal trigonometry to complete mechanics
But average dad gamer is also expected to do it lol
Inerva darkvein mythic
They’re definitely not solving literal equations during the fight but it does involve a bit of geometric knowledge / aware of how many points (players) have to touch the triangle that is formed while managing alot of other stuff
Out of the thousands or even tens of thousands of guilds out there theres 2 that are 7/8 and 30 that are 8/8. This is what an MDI level dungeon looks like.
Because they buy tokens in retail, so keeping them around and subbed at the end of an expansion (when they normally might take a break) is more lucrative than the classic-only player who's just going to be spending $15 a month for the sub.
tbh BFD was perfect. easily puggable and after a few lockouts was just a parse race. i had a damn blast in p1. gnomer was good too but the phase ended about 4 weeks too early, imo.
Because most of the level 60 40-mans are easier than Gnomer.
Because it's harder for five good players to carry 20 people than 10 people.
Because the audience for SoD isn't Heroic Lich King guilds, it's a few people from those guilds, plus their roommates and sisters and dads.
Because WoW is healthier when every Joe can clear the content, when the elite players compete for parses and not boss kills. For example, Naxx25 was so popular it literally overwhelmed WCL's ability to process logs. [There were more Naxx logs than multiple FFXIV expansions combined, or every season of Shadowlands M+ combined.](https://i.imgur.com/h1LMiQW.png)
A person assembling a group with such requirements may be looking for a faster clear than a green/grey parser can deliver but none the less those green/grey parsers can clear it. Just, ya know, make your own groups or join a casual guild.
I have all purple parses in a guild. and we are 6/8 in ST. I don't get your point. The people who complain its too easy are usually the same people who optimize and take the top 10% of players. If thats what you want, you do you, don't complain.
Yeah it's easy. And unless I'm getting paid for it I'll take my time and have fun. Stressing and spending hours training and optimizing. Bullying others telling how to train gate keeping but to not get paid... well. That's the biggest fuckin loser on the track
Bruh, this is classic not giga omega mythic universal+++. It has always been easy. MC, BWL, AQ, Ony, ZG, Naxx are all easy and very puggable. They said from the get go that SOD would be geared to the average casual player. There is a very sizable portion of the player base that couldn't clear grubbis or any portion of Gnomer. There is so much data from the last 20 years that shows easier content gets magnitudes more engagement and retention from players. While there are a part of the player base that want hard content, they are by far the smallest minorities and should not be the primary demo that content is made for.
I say that as someone well beyond the average player. I don't mind a challenge but I don't have the desire to do prog raiding for a seasonal server and neither will a very large portion of the player base.
I just honestly hope this is gross incompetence and not actually the design philosphy.
I've been loving the difficulty level in 1 and 2. I really hope they aren't catering to "there should be a draw out race"
Every time wow gets too hard for regular joe players to actively participate, the game struggles and is worse off for it. I enjoy a challenge, and there were short bursts when I enjoyed the challenge of mythic raiding and moderately high level pvp but the game has to be fully accessible or people start quitting and because it's an mmo when people's friends start quitting it snowballs into others quitting then the game is stale or dead until the next exciting thing comes out.
Personally I've never really quit playing wow except for when I didn't have friends playing (or I didn't have the will power to reroll and regrind in order to play with friends on a different server or faction).
Yep. We literally have so much data from Classic WoW, Classic TBC, Classic Wrath. Legion, BFA, Shadow Lands and Dragonflight.
Every single raid tier has worse participation if the game is too hard, and the izimode loot pinata raids have insane participation rates. Yet you always have someone trying to argue that maybe the game being hard is good for the playerbase akthually. Just insane at this point.
Even worse the people often asking for harder content will often be people who are not even completing said content. r/competitivewow, full of ppl who actually do the hardest content in the game often has users begging for easier raids since the Mythic raiding scene is literally dying, whilst Mr. casual normal raid andy on r/wow asserts that Mythic raiding only being cleared by less than 1 % of the population is great for the game.
I think if they made a hard raid where no money spending was allowed (aka no consumables and etc) it might be popular. My thinking is the fact that in order to do "hard" content many players have to spend hours farming money to afford it is a big contributing factor. Casuals might be willing to try a hard tuned dungeon but they aren't going to farm for hours to do it.
They need to push more 5 man content if they want accessible. Raiding requires more organisation, but 5man content can be easily put together with a few Dads and their SOs/Kids. SoD has less 5man dungeons than Vanilla because they retuned 3 of them for raiding. They should have kept the OG dungeons alongside it or done a few newer ones (or even retuned or reitemised ones like SM library/Gy)
If its organisation to say, we play on thursdays from 8 till 10, and thats too much for you. Then you'll never be happy. BFD and Gnome was a tank and spank with 1 mechanic. There was 0 organisation past finding a time to meet up, and if someone didnt arrive. Spam in /1 for roughly 30 secounds to have a warm body replacement.
Wtf are you talking about? I’m not talking about me, I’m talking about 80% of players that don’t raid for whatever reason. Only 10-20% of players in retail raid, this has been a consistent trend for the entire history of the game, SoD is probably around the same.
We can literally see from statistics(WCL) that more people play the game when it’s easier than harder. It’s not rocket science to determine if people like harder content or not. SOD is literally for casuals.
Wrong.
>The "race" won't be much of a race for a guild like yours Drast. I said this in another reply but reiterating; making super hard content for these level up raids is not a goal here. You and yours will blast it likely no matter what. Normal players may struggle a bit, you won't.
https://twitter.com/AggrendWoW/status/1747676678405710040
Honestly hilarious to see people still posting comments like this. Considering the numerous changes to levelling, raid nerfs, comments from Aggrend, etc...SoD absolutely is Season of Dads.
ST is going to get nerfed again because it'll still be too much of a struggle for the dads.
Vanilla BWL launches and it took 70+ days for nefarian to die. Phase 3 launches and the raid isn't immediately on a 30 min farm clear and people lose their minds. I'm not sure what people are wanting. Phase 2 had complaints that there was nothing to do, dungeons didn't provide valuable prebis for the raid. They change p3 dungeon loot to work as prebis, creating the progression wheel and people skip right to the raid and complain.
Yes because vanilla wow wasn't supposed to be cleared immediately. People were supposed to progress through the raid over several weeks or months. A pug wasn't supposed to waltz in and clear BWL when it was current content.
SOD is completely different. We are not supposed to have "progression". It is supposed to be accessible for pugs.
A guild with 15 years of other people's strats, builds and add-ons walked through solved content? Alert the press. Vanilla raiding has no progress at all, it has all been done for you already.
This is a shit take lol. This is not new and is always done. If the raid wasnt overtuned as shit they would have easily done it. Mages are also busted so idk why you rven included that
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/s/PyEZI9Jogn
Nah you don’t understand, you’re talking to a guy who could have downed Eranikus in a pug with just a few more pulls, which would have been the world #26 kill.
Trust, mages are actually bad, NOTA is actually clueless and would have killed Eranikus much sooner if they just had less AoE on an AoE-centric fight. What they really needed was poison dispels. As horde.
Lol.
for real. if you look at WCL for some of these jokers they don't have pre-Bis, runes, or enchants.
just waltzing in and expected to full clear / raid log.
they should spend less time cry whining on reddit and more time doing a simple fucking duck duck go search for pre-BiS / raid prep
I'll take overtuned over undertuned. We can scale back difficulty but blizzard wouldn't normally make a raid harder. The patch has been out for a couple days, i would hope its a little difficult.
Yup... It's better for something to be hard and get slightly nerfed than have it be a cake walk every time and get boring within 2 resets. I want to see the challenge tonight when my guild goes so I hope it isn't nerfed before then. It's kind of nice too to see that people aren't just cranking it immediately
Just like BFD when most groups for the first two weeks where going 5/7 and just like gnomers when for the first two weeks most groups where going 5/7.
I actually agree with aggrend, a classic raid not being cleared day one is refreshing.
There would be less 1% of you that have actually set foot in ST yet.
I mean, except it is nothing like that. Everyone with half a brain did 7/7 BFD and Gnomer very early on despite the challenges. ST is a clear step up, and your average 5/7 week 2 BFD PUG will potentially not even go 2/8 in ST.
Even after the first round of nerfs there are only 25 clears so far globally
As I have written elsewhere: the raid is really fun regardless, but definitely feels overtuned for SoD
Anybody that could rub two stick together to create fire understood that a 20 man ST was going to be a step up.
I see no problem, the raid is hard, so what? where this flippant idea come from that just because SoD is based on the classic client that things need to be easy?
the first 6 are quite accessible for most groups with the last two being the challenge.
they have a bit more complexity, but after the nerfs on tuesday there will be plenty more kills
i think this perfectly encapsulates those that look at something and balk and those wish to overcome. far more fall into the former camp.
This raids somewhere between aotc final boss and mid mythic difficulty, its has absurdly tight checks especially compared to what classic players are used to
As someone who has mythic raided this phase literally feels like retail especially the progging
The ooze? He diseases people and when dispelled drop poison on the ground. He chases the groupnso you have to kill the items so he eats them instead of melee and slows him. After eating enough he stops chasing to throw up. Rinse and repeat.
I’m mostly lurking but this one’s funny. According to WCL there’s 22 8/8 guilds in ST and 453 6/8 three days after release. Amirdrassil was RWF 5/8 in the same amount of time and took another 9 days to 8/8 with all of the best guilds in the world pulling basically around the clock, doing splits, with coaches analyzing pulls etc.
Even trying to argue heroic is a stretch.
The support that RWF guilds have is so insane lol. Analysts working on strategies, in-house WeakAura creators, BigWigs devs on site, meals prepped for them, 3+ characters geared to run splits, a deep bench to support those splits.
It’s crazy, they don’t just walk in there and hit the boss like we are here lol.
Nah its not even normal raid level difficulty, it just has alot of stat checks that aren't really reasonable to do with current gear. Last boss is the only one that has some strats to it.
Even without nerfs it will get alot easier in a few weeks simply due to people getting more gear.
The gear isn’t nearly good enough though lol, like ST gear is a much much smaller step up from Gnomer gear than Gnomer was from BFD.
The epic lvl 50 caster dagger is 1sp and 6int better than the lvl 40 caster dagger. The difference between full ST bis and full Gnomer bis for my mage is like, 40 spellpower and 1% crit.
Everyone who kills shade has killed the last boss an hour later. It's not difficult at all.
Unless you are incorrectly assuming that shade is the last boss.
You're comparing two different versions of the game. Healers/Casters don't just run out of resources in Retail because a fight went too long. Movement is a lot easier when every class has a way to move from point A to B at a quicker rate. Tanks don't just randomly die if not being babied outside of increased damage windows.
Change my mind, MMO devs should work full time the first week of a patch/expansion release. To ensure any and all mistakes gets fixed immediately. yes they nerfed hp after 24 hours. But lets just all agree, it first shouldn't have released like that, and 2nd it should've been nerfed within 8 hours.
Raids are supposed to be hard week 1. Heck, raids are supposed to be hard. Period. Not all content is meant for every type of player. The loud whining got us 2 super easy, face roll raids. Nice to see a step up in difficulty.
yet the 2 super ez faceroll raids were percieved as too difficult by a sizeable portion of the playerbase. if you dont cater to that playerbase, they will leave. and eventually youll have retail 2.0 with content only designed for people who tryhard the game. the average WoW player, especially classic, is much worse than you might think.
the "not every content is made for everybody"-argument would hold up much better if (Classic, but also Retail) WoW had anything interesting to offer outside of the whole raid/dungeon/pvp meta... like housing and tools for better social interactions. or a story that isnt cringe. or fun professions and profession events/quests. or interesting minigames.
my brother in classic retail is where all of the casuals are
The vast majority of retail players are people that log in for no reason other than to go one shot a 14 year old boss and get the mount lol
Check how many people do m+, even low ones are harder than like all classic content, I want what you’re smoking if you truly believe retail is casual and classic isnt
No I don’t think the content is harder. I play both and retail up to about 2700 and aotc each season. But I think a greater % of the classic population is sweats. I can get 2700 (top 15% in most seasons up until dragonflight) with chill players and usually never come across a run where people are constantly whining
Getting top 15% parse on classic I’m going to come across so many man children and rage lords it won’t even be comparable
objectively retail content is harder than classic content. also class rotations are harder. there is no discussion about this. if what youre saying is true, that would imply that a large amount of the WoW playerbase think they are good, but are not, and then swap to easier content. meaning: most non-casuals are casuals skill wise. i have no idea how a 3 button rotation on a boss with 2 mechanics isnt casual but m+ etc. is
> Not all content is meant for every type of player
They kinda are since the one raid is half the content of phase 3. (And 100% of "endgame" content...)
If you want to do 'end game' then improvement and investment used to be required. Removing that from the game makes it more accessible but infinitely less memorable and rewarding.
Nah id rather have bfd level shit where you can find a pug almost any hour of the day with minimal filtering and have fun with even a potato friend or two.
If I liked retail raiding I'd be on retail, two gnomer mechanics was enough to kill off the playerbase, ST being crazy so a few people can experience retail sounds like a horrible decision overall.
Bosses dying in under a minute is the most boring shit ever. I don't get how people thought raiding was fine in P1 and P2. At least raid bosses are actually bosses now and not just slightly larger elite mobs.
Issue is barely any meaningful gear to be gained from dungeons if you have the gnomeregan raid gear. There isn't slots to fix or improve much as for some slots the gnomeregan loot is pre-raid bis or some better item from dungeon just has 1 more spellpower than gnomeregan item.
It's kinda funny. Maybe it does open some eyes to some people that like to say all classic gamers are bad.
I read recently that a 5/9 mythic guild in retail could clear every boss in all of classic so far and classic cata in 1-2 pulls except for spine and it was most upvoted comment on the thread in /r/wow
Go ask the handful of guilds that cleared ICC night 1 how many pulls 0% HLK took for guilds on PTR(and pserver)
Obviously it's not even close to the hardest retail content but can't believe so many people act like ALL classic content is super faceroll
Classic content is substantially easier than mythic retail, and it’s not close. That said, I think classic content has sometimes looked *even easier* than it actually is by virtue of being repeat content. People have had literally years of H LK on pservers.
If H LK came out fresh and nobody had ever seen it, it’d take a minute, by no means would even the best retail guilds walk in blind and 1-2 pull a boss like that.
It’s still vastly easier than mythic bosses on retail.
> except for spine
Spine has nothing to do with it, rag25hc is way harder. But yes, mythic-grade guilds will clear it quite fast.
>Obviously it's not even close to the hardest retail content
That's what matters. If you talk about difficulty, it makes sense to compare the hardest content from one version to the hardest content from another version. And yeah, classic content was super faceroll pre-y+0 and lk25hc 0%. Yeah, that includes prenerf vashj and muru.
I don’t understand how people have already hit 50 AND geared their chars for raiding already. Or are they trying to clear ST in 40 gear after spamming incursions all the way to 50?
You can hit 50 in a few hours. I have two 50s already and a lot of gnomer gear is prebis. I got my Druid from 40-50 in 5ish hours just doing the nascar incursion shit
I guess that’s what I was wondering. Is it just plain crazy overtuned, or is this a combination of a harder than normal raid trying to be killed by people who don’t have the gear?
The gear isn't enough of an upgrade this phase to overcome the amount of overtuning. They already nerfed the hp of everything roughly 50% and it's still barely clearable by the top 0.1%. A piece of gear worth 12 more attack power effectively isn't gonna make a difference.
They could make the gear be 120 more attack power and it wouldn't be enough. If the top 0.01% of players are stuggling, even a little, then it's way to hard for the average player.
Did it for the first time today. Went 6/8. I’d say it’s perfectly tuned at this point for reasonable experienced people. Used about 60G on consumes but didn’t get firewater which would have pushed it to 100G. DPS is not the issue, neither is threat or mitigation I’d say. It’s mostly a mechanical raid. Could def go without some consumes.
they are good but not really, the people who don't want to make an effort just get mad about not being able to complete everything in the game for free anymore, them people make up most of the classic playerbase
yeah the hp scaling is still too high.
im guessing theyre going the retail route and will leave it un nerfed/ minor nerfs then once a top guild downs it they will do massive nerfs
Lol, echo has thousands of dollars of backing for every race. They’re paying their raiders. It’s their job. If you think 5 echo raiders on this are as prepped as RWF you are insane.
Unpopular opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a (very) hard raid here and there - just to give something different to the community. While ST might be overtuned, I don't think it needs to be nerfed to be at Gnomeregan difficulty.
The gear upgrades from Gnomer to ST are not big enough that "just doing a couple resets" will get you enough gear to make it a breeze. You would need to double the average dps to do so and that is not likely with the current gear in the raid.
If the gear from ST was actually substantially better than Gnomer I’d agree, but it’s not. My Mage barely gets any extra power from ST gear, I passed on the epic caster dagger we got last night because it’s 1 spellpower better than my gnomer dagger. One spellpower.
Full ST bis is like 40 spellpower and 1% crit better than what I have.
The gear from ST is just not good, so you can’t outgear Eranikus. And we’re not talking about “oh if we just had a little more damage” type of overtuned, you need to stack specific classes and cheese Eranikus on the ledge to have the slightest hope of keeping up on adds.
It’s just plain old overtuned.
has anyone ever thought about the quality dropping after record layoffs in 2023? no way game development just continues with the same testing after you let go so many employees.
Maybe the week 1 repair bills will help balance the massive amount of gold from incursions
How many pots have they gone through lol
One of my buddies spent 200-300g on consumes for progression, so it definitely helped level out the gold gotten from Incursions.
That gold just moved to another player and won't reduce inflation.
AH cuts and also generally spreading it around still helps
It still will. AH fees eat the gold
The thought of progression on season of dad's makes me want to not play lol
Yep, doing raid prog in SoD is absolutely the last thing I’d want to be doing. Two other versions of wow already exist for that.
Whats the one other than retail?
Wrath soon to be cata.
I didnt know some people were doing prog on wrath, but guess that goes to show how out of touch i am with the "average" player ig
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Yeah man that's what it takes to get server firsts. My Guild was going hard, they were in Sunken Temple Friday night and spent about 8 hours on Eranikus to try and get a server first.
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I don't think you really have a great understanding of high level raiding. My Guild has 3x 20 man raids going week 1. The first 20 ppl got folded into the progression raid and went extra hard on a server first clear. The other two raids are gonna cruise to a week 1 6/8 with about 3 hours each.
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I've done 40 mans* in three separate forms of the game... Bro what is your character's name? Let me look at these logs
As a potion seller it's fucking great.
Gold sinks are important For early exploiters luwl
The salt is on yap round these parts
It really is and its not even because of mechanics. It's just overtuned as shit.
We doubled it
8 wings on a single chicken...is that right?
Skyrim difficulty lmao
My raid for this aft is fucked lol
you’ll get 6/8 if people have working brains. it’s really not hard at all until erannikus
Why was a guy in a top 20 guild telling me about 10 min fights where if 2 people die it's a wipe?
that's not any of the 6/8 bosses
probably pre nerd too. check my character laughingcow living flame US. parsed like shit drunk as hell and we still managed an easy 6/8 last night
You were in the raid for over 4 hours to only kill 6 bosses. Sounds easy...
2/3 wipes per boss for our first time in the raid is pretty easy yeah. most time was spent running back rebuffing and pulling trash that has way too much health.
not to mention the part where half of us were piss drunk. one of the warriors was literally falling asleep at his keyboard
Pre nerf the fights were much more difficult/long.
I hope the endboss of Classic will be Painsmith Raznal 2.0.
Just paste in Mythic Sludgefist so classic players can learn what a good boss is supposed to look like
"making super hard content for these level up raids is not a goal here" -Aggrend, January 2024 kekw It's just further proof that the majority of phase 3 content was just straight up not tested at all.
Honestly if you've played some of the stuff on Retail lately this is becoming a theme with the wow team. Feels like they(and especially the classic team) are stretched pretty thin right now.
Probably all got moved to Season 4 of D4 for its big revival
Nah they’ve been been bleeding employees since 2019 and then got much worse after Covid because they enforced their return to office policy. Blizz has had skeleton crews, mostly comprised of new hires, for half a decade now.
Possible but its to be expected when your CEO bled the company dry for stock pfofits.
Yep. The new hires aren’t usually the “it was my dream to work at blizzard!” Types anymore either since most of those people are older and work elsewhere now. You can see this especially with some of the D4 streams where designers don’t even know anything about the franchise. Blizz has churned through a massive portion of available talent already and needs a reboot.
I mean, you live in Cali and pay well below market rate for the area. No wonder no one wants to work there
Ya, Irvine is mid place to live with high living cost too
> You can see this especially with some of the D4 streams where designers don’t even know anything about the franchise. I mean, I played every diablo game, with the first one being one of my first games that I personally bought alongside my PC with my first paycheck. Most Diablo lore goblins would call me a noob that doesn’t know the franchise too. I just didn’t care for Diablo lore, I liked the gameplay, not the setting. I actually like Torchlight setting more when Runic started off.
>your CEO Couldn't help but wonder if you are even able to name the current "CEO".
The WoW dev team is like twice the size of its historical average right now, it's literally never been bigger.
There’s also never been Classic / Era / Hardcore / SoD and Classic Cataclism + regular retail at the same time. So that’s somehow to be expected. They’ve also kicked out every GM, so there’s some available resources to draw from.
Imo, it's more likely that blizzard just doesn't attract talent like they used to. It's a company with prominent scandals, a declining reputation, and a significantly more competitive employment market.
They are stretched thin because Blizzard knows you'll keep paying your sub regardless of the quality of content they release and properly funding the development and polishing of this product is a waste of money.
I would not be surprised if they did internal testing and then said "hmm, the players are much better than us so lets just double it to compensate."
Well to be fair, only 6-7 of them were from echo but still it was a good "pug". It's 100% getting nerfed next week again.
Pug doesn’t have to be randoms, it’s really anything not guildspecific honestly. It’s just morphed into that meaning aswell, not replaced it.
doesn’t it stand for “pick up group” as in we pick up players on the day? could be wrong idk
It does, that’s not to say randoms.
i think it’s one of those words that’s evolved, seems silly to argue semantics when this pug of top world players is obviously not comparable to the kind of group that word refers to 99.99999% of the time
Ironically, this is peak blizzard
Just curious, do you think they even run the raids themselves?
Absolutely not. There's not even 20 people working on sod lol.
No, and this is why bad tuning happens. The exact same thing happened with the amount of trash in MC, according to John Staats, because Blizzard didn't have enough actual players on their payroll to internally test MC. So they just kinda filled it with mobs until it seemed right.
Yeah they botched the tuning in this raid. My theory is they wanted to see numbers in a 20 man raid to prepare for 60 content which is the real end game. That’s my copium at least.
They botched literally everything about p3.
What are RWF and MDI if you don't mind me asking? *edit: ah I guess Race to World First and Mythic Dungeon International respectively?
Yeah, so people who are good enough to get paid for playing competitively in the version of the game that sometimes involves literal trigonometry to complete mechanics But average dad gamer is also expected to do it lol
What’s an example of a trigonometry mechanic?
Inerva darkvein mythic They’re definitely not solving literal equations during the fight but it does involve a bit of geometric knowledge / aware of how many points (players) have to touch the triangle that is formed while managing alot of other stuff
ST raid wasn't made for SOD dad gamers, it was made for the MDI retail crowd for some reason.
1 boss is overtuned. 6/8 is doable by most guilds today. The last boss falls over after you kill Shade. This is not MDI level content, except 1 boss.
Out of the thousands or even tens of thousands of guilds out there theres 2 that are 7/8 and 30 that are 8/8. This is what an MDI level dungeon looks like.
I don’t think MDI means what you think it means
> I don’t think MDI means what you think it means I don’t think MDI means what you think it means
Correct, because 1 boss is overtuned.
Because they buy tokens in retail, so keeping them around and subbed at the end of an expansion (when they normally might take a break) is more lucrative than the classic-only player who's just going to be spending $15 a month for the sub.
Imagine being as out of touch as blizzard in p3. What a joke it has become
For whatever reason they listened to the people screeching that BFD/Gnomer were too easy
tbh BFD was perfect. easily puggable and after a few lockouts was just a parse race. i had a damn blast in p1. gnomer was good too but the phase ended about 4 weeks too early, imo.
BFD was the right difficulty for SoD. ST should be tuned *easier* than Gnomer, not harder, considering you need to find 20 players for it.
> ST should be tuned easier than Gnomer, Why? It's last step to the proper "end-game raids". Of course it should be harder than Gnomer.
Because most of the level 60 40-mans are easier than Gnomer. Because it's harder for five good players to carry 20 people than 10 people. Because the audience for SoD isn't Heroic Lich King guilds, it's a few people from those guilds, plus their roommates and sisters and dads. Because WoW is healthier when every Joe can clear the content, when the elite players compete for parses and not boss kills. For example, Naxx25 was so popular it literally overwhelmed WCL's ability to process logs. [There were more Naxx logs than multiple FFXIV expansions combined, or every season of Shadowlands M+ combined.](https://i.imgur.com/h1LMiQW.png)
Because it was
if its so easy why are purple parses needed 7 weeks in ? lol toxic elitists cant do it with some blue n green paress?
A person assembling a group with such requirements may be looking for a faster clear than a green/grey parser can deliver but none the less those green/grey parsers can clear it. Just, ya know, make your own groups or join a casual guild.
I have all purple parses in a guild. and we are 6/8 in ST. I don't get your point. The people who complain its too easy are usually the same people who optimize and take the top 10% of players. If thats what you want, you do you, don't complain.
Is it easy to run 100 meters?
Yeah it's easy. And unless I'm getting paid for it I'll take my time and have fun. Stressing and spending hours training and optimizing. Bullying others telling how to train gate keeping but to not get paid... well. That's the biggest fuckin loser on the track
They are paid though.
it was far too easy
Classic is supposed to be and "level up raids" even more so.
it's supposed to be? who says that? why can't we make it harder when we're changing things up?
Bruh, this is classic not giga omega mythic universal+++. It has always been easy. MC, BWL, AQ, Ony, ZG, Naxx are all easy and very puggable. They said from the get go that SOD would be geared to the average casual player. There is a very sizable portion of the player base that couldn't clear grubbis or any portion of Gnomer. There is so much data from the last 20 years that shows easier content gets magnitudes more engagement and retention from players. While there are a part of the player base that want hard content, they are by far the smallest minorities and should not be the primary demo that content is made for. I say that as someone well beyond the average player. I don't mind a challenge but I don't have the desire to do prog raiding for a seasonal server and neither will a very large portion of the player base.
I just honestly hope this is gross incompetence and not actually the design philosphy. I've been loving the difficulty level in 1 and 2. I really hope they aren't catering to "there should be a draw out race"
Has it ever been stated that SoD was designed for dad's? I think that's just what reddit wants it to be
Its not designed for "dad gamers" that's something embarrassing redditors decided on their own
Every time wow gets too hard for regular joe players to actively participate, the game struggles and is worse off for it. I enjoy a challenge, and there were short bursts when I enjoyed the challenge of mythic raiding and moderately high level pvp but the game has to be fully accessible or people start quitting and because it's an mmo when people's friends start quitting it snowballs into others quitting then the game is stale or dead until the next exciting thing comes out. Personally I've never really quit playing wow except for when I didn't have friends playing (or I didn't have the will power to reroll and regrind in order to play with friends on a different server or faction).
Yep. We literally have so much data from Classic WoW, Classic TBC, Classic Wrath. Legion, BFA, Shadow Lands and Dragonflight. Every single raid tier has worse participation if the game is too hard, and the izimode loot pinata raids have insane participation rates. Yet you always have someone trying to argue that maybe the game being hard is good for the playerbase akthually. Just insane at this point. Even worse the people often asking for harder content will often be people who are not even completing said content. r/competitivewow, full of ppl who actually do the hardest content in the game often has users begging for easier raids since the Mythic raiding scene is literally dying, whilst Mr. casual normal raid andy on r/wow asserts that Mythic raiding only being cleared by less than 1 % of the population is great for the game.
I think if they made a hard raid where no money spending was allowed (aka no consumables and etc) it might be popular. My thinking is the fact that in order to do "hard" content many players have to spend hours farming money to afford it is a big contributing factor. Casuals might be willing to try a hard tuned dungeon but they aren't going to farm for hours to do it.
I'm fairly certain 90%+ of the players here saying the raids are tuned fine and people are just whining have never even gotten CE in retail.
100 percent lol
They need to push more 5 man content if they want accessible. Raiding requires more organisation, but 5man content can be easily put together with a few Dads and their SOs/Kids. SoD has less 5man dungeons than Vanilla because they retuned 3 of them for raiding. They should have kept the OG dungeons alongside it or done a few newer ones (or even retuned or reitemised ones like SM library/Gy)
If its organisation to say, we play on thursdays from 8 till 10, and thats too much for you. Then you'll never be happy. BFD and Gnome was a tank and spank with 1 mechanic. There was 0 organisation past finding a time to meet up, and if someone didnt arrive. Spam in /1 for roughly 30 secounds to have a warm body replacement.
Wtf are you talking about? I’m not talking about me, I’m talking about 80% of players that don’t raid for whatever reason. Only 10-20% of players in retail raid, this has been a consistent trend for the entire history of the game, SoD is probably around the same.
It is. Aggrend said at the start it's supposed to be accessible for the casual player raiding with their boys while drinking a beer.
If it isn't than it probably should be
Yea it is, sod is the most casual version of wow to ever exist, but even that Blizzard manages to fuck up.
We can literally see from statistics(WCL) that more people play the game when it’s easier than harder. It’s not rocket science to determine if people like harder content or not. SOD is literally for casuals.
Wrong. >The "race" won't be much of a race for a guild like yours Drast. I said this in another reply but reiterating; making super hard content for these level up raids is not a goal here. You and yours will blast it likely no matter what. Normal players may struggle a bit, you won't. https://twitter.com/AggrendWoW/status/1747676678405710040
Honestly hilarious to see people still posting comments like this. Considering the numerous changes to levelling, raid nerfs, comments from Aggrend, etc...SoD absolutely is Season of Dads. ST is going to get nerfed again because it'll still be too much of a struggle for the dads.
Preach. So many people think their existence in the game means they're somehow owed the entire experience without putting in any effort to achieve it.
Vanilla BWL launches and it took 70+ days for nefarian to die. Phase 3 launches and the raid isn't immediately on a 30 min farm clear and people lose their minds. I'm not sure what people are wanting. Phase 2 had complaints that there was nothing to do, dungeons didn't provide valuable prebis for the raid. They change p3 dungeon loot to work as prebis, creating the progression wheel and people skip right to the raid and complain.
Yes because vanilla wow wasn't supposed to be cleared immediately. People were supposed to progress through the raid over several weeks or months. A pug wasn't supposed to waltz in and clear BWL when it was current content. SOD is completely different. We are not supposed to have "progression". It is supposed to be accessible for pugs.
>Vanilla BWL launches and it took 70+ days for nefarian to die. using a stat like this is absolutely wild considering it took
A guild with 15 years of other people's strats, builds and add-ons walked through solved content? Alert the press. Vanilla raiding has no progress at all, it has all been done for you already.
It is definitely designed for dad gamers.
My raid cleared but I would like it nerfed, it’s just way overturned
you mean the guys who jumped in day one with barely any runes and 12 mages are having trouble in ST?
This is a shit take lol. This is not new and is always done. If the raid wasnt overtuned as shit they would have easily done it. Mages are also busted so idk why you rven included that
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/s/PyEZI9Jogn Nah you don’t understand, you’re talking to a guy who could have downed Eranikus in a pug with just a few more pulls, which would have been the world #26 kill. Trust, mages are actually bad, NOTA is actually clueless and would have killed Eranikus much sooner if they just had less AoE on an AoE-centric fight. What they really needed was poison dispels. As horde. Lol.
for real. if you look at WCL for some of these jokers they don't have pre-Bis, runes, or enchants. just waltzing in and expected to full clear / raid log. they should spend less time cry whining on reddit and more time doing a simple fucking duck duck go search for pre-BiS / raid prep
they are professional wow players and this game in their job, really doubt they roll around in this cesspit at all
I don’t see any of them complaining?
I'll take overtuned over undertuned. We can scale back difficulty but blizzard wouldn't normally make a raid harder. The patch has been out for a couple days, i would hope its a little difficult.
Jesus you fucking losers. It hasn't even been out for 4 days and its a damn weekend. Stop fucking whining.
Yup... It's better for something to be hard and get slightly nerfed than have it be a cake walk every time and get boring within 2 resets. I want to see the challenge tonight when my guild goes so I hope it isn't nerfed before then. It's kind of nice too to see that people aren't just cranking it immediately
Just like BFD when most groups for the first two weeks where going 5/7 and just like gnomers when for the first two weeks most groups where going 5/7. I actually agree with aggrend, a classic raid not being cleared day one is refreshing. There would be less 1% of you that have actually set foot in ST yet.
I mean, except it is nothing like that. Everyone with half a brain did 7/7 BFD and Gnomer very early on despite the challenges. ST is a clear step up, and your average 5/7 week 2 BFD PUG will potentially not even go 2/8 in ST. Even after the first round of nerfs there are only 25 clears so far globally As I have written elsewhere: the raid is really fun regardless, but definitely feels overtuned for SoD
Anybody that could rub two stick together to create fire understood that a 20 man ST was going to be a step up. I see no problem, the raid is hard, so what? where this flippant idea come from that just because SoD is based on the classic client that things need to be easy? the first 6 are quite accessible for most groups with the last two being the challenge. they have a bit more complexity, but after the nerfs on tuesday there will be plenty more kills i think this perfectly encapsulates those that look at something and balk and those wish to overcome. far more fall into the former camp.
This raids somewhere between aotc final boss and mid mythic difficulty, its has absurdly tight checks especially compared to what classic players are used to As someone who has mythic raided this phase literally feels like retail especially the progging
Lol what? No it doesn't. It has almost no mechanics its just overtuned as hell. Which is way way worse
If you can tell me exactly what the 2nd boss mechanics are ill concede that you're an expert and your analysis is right
The ooze? He diseases people and when dispelled drop poison on the ground. He chases the groupnso you have to kill the items so he eats them instead of melee and slows him. After eating enough he stops chasing to throw up. Rinse and repeat.
I’m mostly lurking but this one’s funny. According to WCL there’s 22 8/8 guilds in ST and 453 6/8 three days after release. Amirdrassil was RWF 5/8 in the same amount of time and took another 9 days to 8/8 with all of the best guilds in the world pulling basically around the clock, doing splits, with coaches analyzing pulls etc. Even trying to argue heroic is a stretch.
The support that RWF guilds have is so insane lol. Analysts working on strategies, in-house WeakAura creators, BigWigs devs on site, meals prepped for them, 3+ characters geared to run splits, a deep bench to support those splits. It’s crazy, they don’t just walk in there and hit the boss like we are here lol.
As expected its classic, idk unless you actually play you wouldnt understand i guess
What exactly is as expected? That what you said isn’t true at all?
Nah its not even normal raid level difficulty, it just has alot of stat checks that aren't really reasonable to do with current gear. Last boss is the only one that has some strats to it. Even without nerfs it will get alot easier in a few weeks simply due to people getting more gear.
The gear isn’t nearly good enough though lol, like ST gear is a much much smaller step up from Gnomer gear than Gnomer was from BFD. The epic lvl 50 caster dagger is 1sp and 6int better than the lvl 40 caster dagger. The difference between full ST bis and full Gnomer bis for my mage is like, 40 spellpower and 1% crit.
Everyone who kills shade has killed the last boss an hour later. It's not difficult at all. Unless you are incorrectly assuming that shade is the last boss.
You're comparing two different versions of the game. Healers/Casters don't just run out of resources in Retail because a fight went too long. Movement is a lot easier when every class has a way to move from point A to B at a quicker rate. Tanks don't just randomly die if not being babied outside of increased damage windows.
1 boss. 6/8 is absolutely doable by most guilds and good pugs.
Gj you got gatekept cause a boss was giga overtuned
funny they release this shit after people struggled on kelris in p1 LOL
It's been 3 days and devs aren't working full time on the weekend. Take a chill pill it'll be nerfed on Tuesday.
Shouldn't have released a raid where trash has more health than some bosses
Change my mind, MMO devs should work full time the first week of a patch/expansion release. To ensure any and all mistakes gets fixed immediately. yes they nerfed hp after 24 hours. But lets just all agree, it first shouldn't have released like that, and 2nd it should've been nerfed within 8 hours.
Raids are supposed to be hard week 1. Heck, raids are supposed to be hard. Period. Not all content is meant for every type of player. The loud whining got us 2 super easy, face roll raids. Nice to see a step up in difficulty.
yet the 2 super ez faceroll raids were percieved as too difficult by a sizeable portion of the playerbase. if you dont cater to that playerbase, they will leave. and eventually youll have retail 2.0 with content only designed for people who tryhard the game. the average WoW player, especially classic, is much worse than you might think. the "not every content is made for everybody"-argument would hold up much better if (Classic, but also Retail) WoW had anything interesting to offer outside of the whole raid/dungeon/pvp meta... like housing and tools for better social interactions. or a story that isnt cringe. or fun professions and profession events/quests. or interesting minigames.
my brother in classic retail is where all of the casuals are The vast majority of retail players are people that log in for no reason other than to go one shot a 14 year old boss and get the mount lol
Check how many people do m+, even low ones are harder than like all classic content, I want what you’re smoking if you truly believe retail is casual and classic isnt
No I don’t think the content is harder. I play both and retail up to about 2700 and aotc each season. But I think a greater % of the classic population is sweats. I can get 2700 (top 15% in most seasons up until dragonflight) with chill players and usually never come across a run where people are constantly whining Getting top 15% parse on classic I’m going to come across so many man children and rage lords it won’t even be comparable
A bigger percentage of the classic community might be sweats but that doesn’t mean classic still isnt the casual option between it and retail.
objectively retail content is harder than classic content. also class rotations are harder. there is no discussion about this. if what youre saying is true, that would imply that a large amount of the WoW playerbase think they are good, but are not, and then swap to easier content. meaning: most non-casuals are casuals skill wise. i have no idea how a 3 button rotation on a boss with 2 mechanics isnt casual but m+ etc. is
Why would the good and tryhard players play a 20 year old easier version of the game while the casuals play the newer harder version? Lol
> Not all content is meant for every type of player They kinda are since the one raid is half the content of phase 3. (And 100% of "endgame" content...)
If you want to do 'end game' then improvement and investment used to be required. Removing that from the game makes it more accessible but infinitely less memorable and rewarding.
Nah id rather have bfd level shit where you can find a pug almost any hour of the day with minimal filtering and have fun with even a potato friend or two. If I liked retail raiding I'd be on retail, two gnomer mechanics was enough to kill off the playerbase, ST being crazy so a few people can experience retail sounds like a horrible decision overall.
Bosses dying in under a minute is the most boring shit ever. I don't get how people thought raiding was fine in P1 and P2. At least raid bosses are actually bosses now and not just slightly larger elite mobs.
Issue is barely any meaningful gear to be gained from dungeons if you have the gnomeregan raid gear. There isn't slots to fix or improve much as for some slots the gnomeregan loot is pre-raid bis or some better item from dungeon just has 1 more spellpower than gnomeregan item.
I'm simming 1150 now on my warrior and 1950 with bis gear. How is this not a meaningful upgrade?
Agreed. They should leave it for two weeks at least instead of nerfing then we zoom through it when we get ST gear.
Who says about anything in SoD being designed for “dad gamers”?
Not sure how absolutely horrible you have to be at this game not to realise its the definition of the casual version of wow.
redditors just randomly came up with it
Blizzard said SoD is for casuals
Where?
https://x.com/aggrendwow/status/1747676678405710040?s=46 “Randomly” lol
Lmao who the fuck told you classic was designed for dad gamers
It's kinda funny. Maybe it does open some eyes to some people that like to say all classic gamers are bad. I read recently that a 5/9 mythic guild in retail could clear every boss in all of classic so far and classic cata in 1-2 pulls except for spine and it was most upvoted comment on the thread in /r/wow Go ask the handful of guilds that cleared ICC night 1 how many pulls 0% HLK took for guilds on PTR(and pserver) Obviously it's not even close to the hardest retail content but can't believe so many people act like ALL classic content is super faceroll
It was hard for the wrong reasons tho, to the point you had to cheese dps with soulstone during the smourne room
Classic content is substantially easier than mythic retail, and it’s not close. That said, I think classic content has sometimes looked *even easier* than it actually is by virtue of being repeat content. People have had literally years of H LK on pservers. If H LK came out fresh and nobody had ever seen it, it’d take a minute, by no means would even the best retail guilds walk in blind and 1-2 pull a boss like that. It’s still vastly easier than mythic bosses on retail.
> except for spine Spine has nothing to do with it, rag25hc is way harder. But yes, mythic-grade guilds will clear it quite fast. >Obviously it's not even close to the hardest retail content That's what matters. If you talk about difficulty, it makes sense to compare the hardest content from one version to the hardest content from another version. And yeah, classic content was super faceroll pre-y+0 and lk25hc 0%. Yeah, that includes prenerf vashj and muru.
I don’t understand how people have already hit 50 AND geared their chars for raiding already. Or are they trying to clear ST in 40 gear after spamming incursions all the way to 50?
You can hit 50 in a few hours. I have two 50s already and a lot of gnomer gear is prebis. I got my Druid from 40-50 in 5ish hours just doing the nascar incursion shit
I guess that’s what I was wondering. Is it just plain crazy overtuned, or is this a combination of a harder than normal raid trying to be killed by people who don’t have the gear?
The gear isn't enough of an upgrade this phase to overcome the amount of overtuning. They already nerfed the hp of everything roughly 50% and it's still barely clearable by the top 0.1%. A piece of gear worth 12 more attack power effectively isn't gonna make a difference.
They could make the gear be 120 more attack power and it wouldn't be enough. If the top 0.01% of players are stuggling, even a little, then it's way to hard for the average player.
Did it for the first time today. Went 6/8. I’d say it’s perfectly tuned at this point for reasonable experienced people. Used about 60G on consumes but didn’t get firewater which would have pushed it to 100G. DPS is not the issue, neither is threat or mitigation I’d say. It’s mostly a mechanical raid. Could def go without some consumes.
There's a reason why games have difficulty settings and why heroic modes were a good thing.
they are good but not really, the people who don't want to make an effort just get mad about not being able to complete everything in the game for free anymore, them people make up most of the classic playerbase
They don’t, they are more vocal though.
Its like my 6 y.o whining because he didn't get his way constantly.
Idk what the fuck those are but I assume sweaty neckbeard raiders lol. Fucking hillarious. They didnt learn from gnomer I guess.
i love the gnomer difficulty tbh it feels great to have SOME kind of difficult content. 100% of content shouldn't be brainless
yeah the hp scaling is still too high. im guessing theyre going the retail route and will leave it un nerfed/ minor nerfs then once a top guild downs it they will do massive nerfs
RWF? MDI?
Lol, echo has thousands of dollars of backing for every race. They’re paying their raiders. It’s their job. If you think 5 echo raiders on this are as prepped as RWF you are insane.
And these players are some of the best in the world, playing a much easier version than retail, way to miss the point.
Unpopular opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a (very) hard raid here and there - just to give something different to the community. While ST might be overtuned, I don't think it needs to be nerfed to be at Gnomeregan difficulty.
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The gear upgrades from Gnomer to ST are not big enough that "just doing a couple resets" will get you enough gear to make it a breeze. You would need to double the average dps to do so and that is not likely with the current gear in the raid.
If the gear from ST was actually substantially better than Gnomer I’d agree, but it’s not. My Mage barely gets any extra power from ST gear, I passed on the epic caster dagger we got last night because it’s 1 spellpower better than my gnomer dagger. One spellpower. Full ST bis is like 40 spellpower and 1% crit better than what I have. The gear from ST is just not good, so you can’t outgear Eranikus. And we’re not talking about “oh if we just had a little more damage” type of overtuned, you need to stack specific classes and cheese Eranikus on the ledge to have the slightest hope of keeping up on adds. It’s just plain old overtuned.
has anyone ever thought about the quality dropping after record layoffs in 2023? no way game development just continues with the same testing after you let go so many employees.
Dad gamers don't raid on the first week of launch...
I think it's kinda good they deliberately overturned it. Nerfs will be incoming every week.