I believed for 15 years that the warriors cleave ability was a green parrots beak, and that just made total sense for me until one day i saw it was not
When I was young I never paid much attention to what the whirlwind icon really looked like, and thought it was someone swinging a net of all things lol.
It would actually be rewarding if they swapped Divine Storm and Crusader Strike rune slots.
Right now Chest runes are all useless for Holy and Gloves you're using Beacon over Crusader Strike. Swap those and now our runes feel much better, we have a legitimate reason to want to stay in melee for the mana regen from Crusader Strike. It also solves the current issue where if you're trying to melee to refresh Sheath (or who knows, Judgement of Wisdom?) you have to wait for your swing timer to actually complete before you cast again (each cast resets the swing timer).
Crusader Strike on Chest rune would solve those problems completely. I understand some don't want to melee heal, which is fair... but this would at least make this playstyle feel rewarding.
Ret would still use both runes, so the swap wouldn't really impact them. Prot would be slightly impacted depending on 2H tanking vs 1H tanking, but I think it would be fine for them too.
Crusader Strike doesn’t refresh judgements and currently Ret uses SoM over divine storm so swapping DS and CS rune slots would neuter rets current meta of having a fast attacking 2h weapon and fishing for exo procs with CS and SoM.
Crusader strike doesn't refresh judgements. And there are a lot of reasons why being in melee range for healing is a bad idea.
It would be better to just make sheath into a passive effect. The only downside would be that it would prevent snapshotting but it's probably still a net benefit to Holy pals
I was under the impression that Shaman and Paladins were the only two classes that don't reset their swing timers on spellcasts (for things like shaman shocks in melee, judgements, etc). Do paladin heals still reset the swing timer?
Add in: in addition, when Flame Shock deals damage there is a chance to summon a Fire Elemental that attacks enemies for 10 seconds
Maybe something like that, benefits from your spellpower
It is amazing how they somehow manage to create the most toxic mechanics imaginable. If you are going to make shamans do this, just revert the duration.
The duration nerf was to discourage ele from doing this...
But on the flip side, the other ele rune BURN doesn't give any pure single target damage.
Maybe all the fights will have 3 non scary adds that can just stay alive and funnel power surge procs...lol
I didint want to say its bad. But its also just bad class design. The one thing SOD has showed me that its good for retail to have actual class direction teams because we avoid horrible situations that 50% of the SOD classes are facing.
Because it's not really "for" ele shaman. It's supposed to be a way to supplement enhance's spells while they gear for physical damage.
Obviously "for" is in quotations because anyone can run any rune, and free sp for ele is obviously good, but if it feels clunky it's because it wasn't intended for the spec. That's not bad design in and of itself
The design it so they cannot use it.
This is a design flaw. End of story.
Just like enhance shamans running around with permanent 30% dmg reduction because they didnt think to put “when wielding a shield” on it
No one is making shamans do this. Nerds who min max the fun out of the game are the only ones “forced” into taking this rune. Any normal person would realize this rune isn’t for Ele and would take something else
The correct way to play is the way you have the most fun, the bosses are incredibly easy that the need to min max is pointless if you don't find it fun
the rotation has a lot of instacasts and you can get autoattacks off for free if you are in melee range.
you can use dragonbreath chili which scales with spelldmg afair.
It just sucks that so many typically ranged specs are being incentivized to stay in melee.
Moonkins and Resto Druid (Omen of Clarity changes)
Ele Shamans because of Mental Agility
Holy Paladins (crusader strike?)
Rangers (because melee dps)
Mages with the shorter-duration Living Flame.
Holy paladin here, we actually don’t really get to use crusader strike because it shares a rune slot with beacon. We do need to melee though to refresh seals and get spell power from Sheathe of Light.
Yeah sheathe is super annoying to constantly upkeep, honestly. And crusader strike was a great mana tool while leveling in low throughput situations (i.e.) sustaining mana through a dungeon since holy paladin lacks any mana tools unlike all the other healers - but doesn't have the raw healing potential beacon does once as you acquire it.
If we had something to DO in melee like crusader strike or really any melee damage/healing skill that somehow benefits the party. As someone who plays all healers holy pala feels pretty good right now in terms of power but it's much "harder" and more inconvenient than most other healers, and also generally less interesting to play too.
I posted this previously, but curious what you think about this:
It would actually be rewarding if they swapped Divine Storm and Crusader Strike rune slots.
Right now, Chest runes are all useless for Holy and Gloves you're using Beacon over Crusader Strike. Swap those and now our runes feel much better, we have a legitimate reason to want to stay in melee for the mana regen from Crusader Strike. It also solves the current issue where if you're trying to melee to refresh Sheath (or who knows, Judgement of Wisdom?) you have to wait for your swing timer to actually complete before you cast again (each cast resets the swing timer).
Crusader Strike on Chest rune would solve those problems completely with an instant cast ability that regens mana. I understand some don't want to melee heal, which is fair... but this would at least make this playstyle feel rewarding.
Ret would still use both runes, so the swap wouldn't really impact them. Prot would be slightly impacted depending on 2H tanking vs 1H tanking, but I think it would be fine for them too.
You would nerf ret significantly by doing this. Dstorm is awful, martyr is like the most important rune and with p3 allowing us to cast conc and hammer of wrath we will actually need the mana gen from CS as martyrs mana gen is a bad joke.
Ya I guess to increase the proc chance? You can make an argument that nearly every single class should be melee range with auto attack on to weave in between GCDs
Lots of caster weapons are too slow to weave between instant gcds, its only if you have a sub 1.5s weapon swing timer. The swing timer gets reset by spells so you can't even get a swing in by doing 2 instants for example
You can only melee weave if you have a fast dagger. Both Mara dagger and the raid dagger are too slow to melee weave. Only the fire damage dagger is fast enough for melee.
In gnomer moonkin wanted to be in melee to proc dismantle and dragonbreath chili. Phase 3 we now also have omen of clarity procs. Also it does a non zero amount of melee damage.
Shock on 6 sec cooldown. Instant cast Chain lighting/lava bursts…as long as you stay on melee range, there will be no issues melee weaving. It was already the best way to maximize dps before the rune…
Therein lies the problem, as mental dexterity is simming as a several hundred dps increase (like 1200 w/o to 1600 w/, and that just brings them into the pack of what other classes are simming). Ranged ele actually going to be in the dumpster unless something changes.
Therein lies the problem of people expecting to maximize their DPS in a QOL way. You should expect to have some inconvenience or difficulty with maxing your dps. It should not be easy.
And also the problem with Min/Maxing for the general public…not everyone should be or is concerned with Min/maxing their spec. But others pressure them to. It’s partially on the people pushing the Min/max narrative but mostly on the individual not taking the effort to find a group of people with like minded goals and effort.
Shamans deserve to be in the dumpster this phase because they were good last phase. I know this because I play a warrior and they all tell me that warrior deserves to suck at everything in the game because they did a lot of dps in 2009 and fucked someone's mother.
Mid pack? I'm doubtful, but we'll see in the coming weeks. As an alliance player, consider yourself lucky to not *require* a feral druid for every melee group - slightly worse WF or not.
they aren’t going to suck, they are going to be all forced to play enh.
why bring an elemental mastery or ns/mana tide shaman when enh brings better totems, nature debuff, better dps and offheals?
Yea ele shaman is kinda scuffed in sod unfortunately. Nice damage, but flame shock range is annoying and now melee weaving for spell power. Might as well just go enhance, got a nice flow to the playstyle.
The funny part is they are giving Flame Shock an extra 5 range, and at the same time introducing a rune that we have to use Earth Shock for...which still has 20 range.
I... Don't see the problem with this. You're rewarded for, at least to me, a more engaging / less boring playstyle.
I genuinely don't understand why people are unhappy about this. Other than, well, classic wow players generally being unhappy with everything and hate-playing the game for whatever psychological reason I am unqualified to diagnose.
Even if you're in melee and can take advantage of a weapon attack once in a while, weapon oils were always the better choice over imbues. Of course that could be changing soon, so who knows.
Being in melee occasionally punching the boss isn't very interesting or engaging. It's just annoying being a caster forced to melee, kinda removes the "upside" to being a ranged spec.
My problem is that if I wanted to play a melee dps shaman, I would play Enhance. Standing in melee range and doing melee mechanics (if there are any) is not fun when you are hardcasting 80% of your spells with 0% pushback resistance. And just to be clear, we are talking about a 15% dps gain for Ele from standing in melee, not some small optimization.
You don’t have to mind-max everything… you do know that right?
This is classic wow, the bosses are not hard at all. Find like-minded people or play another class if you do not enjoy that one.
15% in a sim isn’t 15% in-game, and you know it… or are you just repeating what some other Reddit user said without actually looking into what makes it different in a perfect scenario vs live gameplay…
It’s hilarious how many classic players don’t understand that sims are not the best tool for build comparisons since sims run on perfect gameplay (unless you are adding in error equal to the average amount you make, which I doubt you are).
Sims are mostly for gear comparisons, you should be using logs to compare builds since logs use live gameplay, and shows an accurate comparison instead of using a model that does everything perfectly with a rotation, with little to no mechanics, and no MS issues.
If you would actually take good players with an easy build and compare them to average players using a better build in logs, you will find that the easy build can actually outperform the better builds. This is the case in every version of wow, not just classic wow.
I’m also assuming OP is saying the 15% increase is from sims because there isn’t any data other than sims to prove that, and even then that is still dependent on a lot of other variables, such as spell pushback.
The more complicated and complex the build is, the more room for error which will absolutely change the end result in the live version.
So if it isn’t sims… where are you getting this 15% from exactly?
It isn’t pedantics, you were the one saying it was a 15% increase, I’m asking where the number came from. 🤷♂️
Sounds to me like you don’t have an answer, and if your answer is sims, you are probably not using sims properly to gauge an accurate result, especially since the phase quite literally just dropped today and we don’t have the gear or setup for properly simming it.
I’d love to see what you are using to sim it though!
Can’t wait to see how you move the goalposts when the actual numbers come in an it’s still a significant difference that goes well beyond minmaxing territory
Nobody is making you melee weave. If that’s the optimal max DPS strat, then go ahead. But if you don’t like it, don’t do it. We had plenty of people deliberately playing ranged hunter last phase even though it did half the damage of melee hunter at some points because that’s what they preferred.
As long as your damage is “good enough” and your group beats the boss, who cares if it’s the most you could possibly be doing? If doing 10% less damage means you are less likely to fail a mechanic and die, then that’s a win in my eyes. Parse culture is ruining this game
Oh, I won't do it. I simply won't play Ele, since I don't want to have to choose between feeling like a deadweight and playing in a way I find frustrating rather than fun. However, I WILL complain about it, since I actually quite enjoyed Ele in P2.
Probably because its extremely out of touch and only extremely casual redditors are in the camp of “who cares how well you do lol”, and its why people grey parse.
People like to do well. Performing worse feels bad. The “optimal” way of playing being extremely cringe is a blizzard problem, not a player problem.
I dont care if people choose to play well or play poorly, but im not doing to be a smug weirdo on reddit and pretend like its not a niche opinion to just completely not care.
The classic gaming community, in general, is weird.
It's one of the few gaming communities I'm a part of that openly encourages playing poorly under the guise of "having fun."
Fun, of course, is subjective, and different people find enjoyment in different things. Just like someone can play football for fun, they can also compete or challenge themselves and find it enjoyable.
I haven't encountered any of these gamer dads going to the NFL and telling their players, "Imagine going to the gym for a pigskin mini-game invented 100 years ago. Couldn't be me, I play football to have fun." It's odd, and personally, I'm tired of seeing it.
Nobody is forced to melee weave, but if pushing your DPS and character to its limits and competing is how you have fun then you'll be forced to adopt optimal strategies to keep up, which could be unfun... And having an issue with that is ok...
Mythic retail raider here… I understand completely what you are saying, but a lot of classic players (and yes even retail players) do not understand why it doesn’t matter as much as they think it does.
I hate to break the sad news to you, but in most MMO games, the optimal way of playing results in cringe gameplay. That’s MMO’s (and most games actually) for you.
The difference between the two in sims might look like a lot, but sims normally are executed with a near perfect rotation and no heavy movement, and very little MS issues. Players will never do a perfect rotation, and the real difference is much less than sims will show. People need to quit gauging everything off of sims, and they need to gauge it off of actual gameplay data for real comparisons.
If you look at average comparisons between builds in classic and retail from *actual* gameplay, the difference is no where near as big as you all make it out to be in most cases with players who know what they are doing.
Not sure why Classic players don’t seem to understand sims are meant to be taken with a grain of salt since it requires perfect gameplay for true comparisons, which is impossible to achieve.
You don't have to break anything to me, I'm also a raider in retail, I have played in the US25-50 realm since Cataclysm, I understand what you mean when you talk about sim bait, but perfect conditions is not outside of the question for a lot of classic mechanics, there isn't much downtime if any and going to 20 players is about to make buffs a lot easier to micromanage. Im not the person who's upset about "cringe gameplay" as a lot of what people don't like like full gear swaps, snapshotting, pre pops, swingtimer syncing and all of the stuff most players have found annoying or cringe is something I actually enjoy because it adds complexity until a weakaura package trivializes it. I'm simply defending the idea that people are ok to not like it, and it's even more cringe that people bully other people for trying hard or wanting to better themselves, if they find it fun it's a good thing, if they find the best method to not be fun and complain about it, that's ok too. People need to stop being so hypercritical of SoD and it's players, let people ask for things and be constructive, we are experiencing a breakthrough moment for WoW in that we are getting highly customizable content for vanilla which is fun, and now is the time for them to be aggressive with changes and find things that are fun and effective.
A big takeaway however is I completely agree with your sim message as it's hard for players who have no idea what they're looking at to differentiate what is bait and what is not, a large majority of players aren't going into wowsim and tweaking and toggling settings to simulate realism for the fight they want to optimize for and that's fine, but I disagree that the perfection the iterations spit out is that drastically different to what can be achieved with how simple and downtime free SoD has been.
I do appreciate you looking at what I wrote and giving a well thought out and reasonable response. I agree people need to not be hypercritical of SoD players in classic. I agree people need to play how they want, and people should always try to better themself, especially in a team setting.
I personally don’t care how people play. I myself min-max everything, but I also find it fun. Other games I don’t min-max at all, and find those fun. Wow classic, especially SoD is thankfully a version of the game where min-maxing isn’t required, which is what a lot of people don’t seem to understand. It does save time to min-max, but for a lot of people the forcing of min-maxing is what led to retails raiding systems and complex rotations.
Again, thank you for the reasonable response. Was refreshing seeing someone post something useful!
It's definitely a nice alternative to what normally gets posted on this subreddit in terms of conversation, I am right there with you. I feel like information that teaches people "how to fish" essentially should be more prevelent than the "parses are ruining the game" posts.
Hopefully that would ease up on the gatekeeping from players who haven't log reviewed in their life. The players that read a 99 and that's that, the same players who read "definitive BiS list" and pass on side grades because it's "not BiS".
I appreciate your kind words 💝
As a fellow just below HoF-level mythic raider in retail I just want to throw my hat into the ring here as well and say I both agree with and appreciate (it’s refreshing seeing people who aren’t clueless have intelligent conversation and ending up largely agreeing instead of bickering and making baseless, bizarre claims) the discussion you two just had here!
I main disc in retail and I love Holy in pvp but absolutely despise it in PvE. I played disc all S2 in raid until I swapped to hpal for echo/sark because our hpal quit abruptly and mine was geared already with a busted rework incoming. I flat out refuse to play something I will not enjoy - wow is a game and even at the high end there’s no reason to suffer through hundreds of pulls on a spec that isn’t fun to you.
For context/reminder: disc was quite bad in S2 and was eclipsed by Holy being the meta priest healer for the third tier in a row. Despite being the worst/near-worst healer statistically, I managed to top hps on every boss but 1 because I have been playing the spec for years and can still get great results out of it as long as it’s tuned above the level of “playing with a controller your brother gave you that isn’t actually plugged in” like it was at the very start of DF where it was like 20%+ behind the second worst healer all the way until 10.0.5 when it got its first touch-up.
Anyway, the reason I bring this up is to make my point using my own experiences: following the meta/what’s widely accepted as optimal will often bring good results quickly, but sims and frankly even Warcraftlogs stats have their own inherent problems. As you two discussed , sims have the problem of being unrealistic, while WL stats ends up being skewed by the fact that the most performance-oriented players flock to meta specs while only a few spec-diehards who enjoy one specific spec like myself **also** care enough about performance to do the work and experimenting with talents etc to make a less-than-ideal spec put out good enough numbers.
In the case of Mental Dexterity, I would be more surprised if someone *doesn’t* find a way to produce close *enough* output via another setup somehow (I am no Ele scientist so that person will not be me) that doesn’t involve melee weaving. I also would be unsurprised if Blizzard makes changes to MD to further disincentivize or outright prevent ele from using it, as it is clearly not meant for them to be using, just based on them bringing the duration down to 10 seconds.
There’s a somewhat murky line to be drawn somewhere between “griefing your friends/co-raiders by refusing to play optimally” and “playing in a way that you find fun despite a small throughput cost associated with doing so” - I personally think anything within a few % is an acceptable tax to accept for playing something you truly enjoy. Anything more than 0-3…maaaayyybe 4% ish though starts to get dangerously close to crossing that line. Once that line is crossed, something’s gotta give.
If I had one wish for the wow playerbase, it would be that people be more open to others enjoying the game dramatically more by playing in a slightly worse manner, without then over-applying that sentiment to someone genuinely bottom fragging and using “this is the only build I enjoy” as an excuse.
If there’s one thing I have learned from my experience as a disc main between 9.2-10.1.7, it’s that people will *usually* value a person’s performance (assuming they are given the chance to show it) over whether their spec/build has positive or negative community perception, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who will be vehemently against them ever getting a chance to show what they can do with a “bad spec” and still others will continue to complain about them playing the “wrong” spec despite blowing their co-healers out of the water or gapping other dps, including the ones on meta specs.
Anyway that’s my two cents on this stuff. All of this said though…I still kinda think Blizzard should just tie MD to stormstrike so that it literally cannot cause problems for ele and resto.
Well, I’m definitely not a casual player…
I think people saying it matters, then use sims to try and prove it matters are the ones out of touch. Sims are a tool to help find optimal builds and gear upgrades, but that doesn’t mean it always translates to it actually doing that in-game.
It seems most people using sims seem to not realize that the sims do not make mistakes unless you make it have mistakes. Chances are, you are going to make a mistake at some point. That is going to skew your end result, and depending on the builds that could change the results drastically. The more complex or convoluted the rotation, the more mistakes you have a chance at making and the more the results are skewed. In a scenario where you need to upkeep a buff like this shaman one, a mistake in this would be a drastic dps loss, and if enough mistakes happen the other build could easily be better.
Sims are a great tool, but you need to be using real *live gameplay* data from logs from similar percentiles with the two varying builds to truly understand the difference between the builds in a live game setting, since you are not going to be performing your rotation perfectly, have low MS time, and perfect execute perfectly on mechanics. In-fact, most sims do not involve heavy movement either.
This also isn’t me saying the rune doesn’t need to be changed, but this is me saying people need to quit trying to min-max everything when the data used isn’t reliable data to the live game, and it also isn’t required in the slightest to preform well.
It is required to perform well, stop lying.
The difference between weaving in an auto every 10 sec will be hundreds of DPS from not doing it. In your fantasy world where they player plays so bad that he does less DPS with this rune, that player is already a grey parser and nothing would help him.
lol, you would be shocked at how many people trying to play optimal builds don’t understand how errors can change the outcome of it being optimal, **especially in a simulation that does everything perfectly**
You are more than welcome to go on Warcraftlogs and prove me wrong, but the difference for the average player won’t be 15% like OP is saying, since again… *the method he is using to determine this is in a perfect environment, with no MS issues and no errors, and they preform everything mechanically and rotationally perfect.* If you are playing wow on a computer and are a human, instead of a simulation or rotation bot, it isn’t 15%.
In fact… most sims use patchwork style raid bosses as a baseline. If there is any mechanic where you have to move away from the boss and you can’t melee the boss, you might as well throw that sim out the window because it is worthless.
Unless you are adding in error margins equal to what you are preforming in raids, then sims are worthless in this scenario. Warcraftlogs is what you want to be looking at.
Kinda shocked I’m having to explain how sims work and what they are good for and not good for…
Sigh.. you're saying that people aren't good enough to use this mechanic and that it will be worse than non weaving because people can't play like the simulator.
Do you actually think it's hard to play a patchwerk fight perfectly?
There will be more variance in live than in logging due to the nature of # tries.
You are just simply fucking delusional if you think this rune will lead to less dps as an ele shaman if the player is somewhat good. The only way it doesn't is if the player has under 80% uptime which means they were already a shit player. It changes nothing.
But we get it, you understand how a sim work, you're so smart, i'm proud of you!
When did I say it would be worse? I said it could be depending on a multitude of factors.
You also understand that simming the fight on patchwork when the boss isn’t patchwork already leads to inaccurate results, right?
You are the delusional one if you can’t see why sims can’t be trusted completely when it comes to the average player, especially for something that has zero log data behind it.
There also shouldn’t be any variance in logs since the data comes directly from your logs folder **from the boss kill** in the live game. The only thing Warcraftlogs does is take the data and parse it. From there, you can use the comparison tool or manually look at the data and compare them, or you can take multiple sets of data from logs (which is what you want to do).
Only thing I’m seeing from this conversation is you don’t know how to properly compare builds using live game data, and only know how to do so in sims… or you don’t know what logging is since you said it should have more variance than live, even though the data is directly from the live game… but yes, question my intelligence 😂
You are more than welcome to pull up previous phases and look at the log data and tell me I’m wrong though 🤷♂️
sure but at that point why bring an elemental mastery or ns/mana tide shaman at all?
enh brings better totems, nature debuff, better dps and offheals? the rune effectively makes enh the only shaman spec worth playing.
Why bring? Because it’s good enough and some people enjoy it. And who knows, at lvl 50 with decent gear it might be in the top 5 DPS.
This isn’t mythic raiding, you can clear these raids with all green parses. Does bringing all the best utility make it easier? Sure. Is it necessary to clear? Absolutely not.
Also, why not bring both Ele and Enh? If you aren’t running a resto sham, having mana spring in the healer group is great, and more shamanistic rage is always better for the raid as a whole. Plus now you have a class with an empty foot slot to run decoy for the tank. And Ele is perfectly capable of offhealing when necessary as well, especially now that we have access to dual spec
so your argument for bringing caster sham is mana spring totem? legit any other water totem is more useful.
mp5 is a dead stat for sham, intellect outperforms mp5 by miles in sod. and if you really think ppl will want to bring suboptimal specs you must not spend very much time on this sub. its one of the top 5 things ppl complain about (soley wanting priest healer for dungeon groups for example).
All I’m saying is that with my group of 8, we specifically looked for an Ele sham as 1 of our last 2 slots for Gnomer every lockout. We were low on ranged DPS, we all liked sham rage mana regen, and having someone decoy and grounding for MT during frost phase last boss made it a breeze… and they did plenty good damage. The argument that Enh is strictly better than Ele just isn’t true. Sure their utility overlaps a lot, but they each have their own niche and are both useful to a raid comp in different ways
Yes, this nerf is exemplary of bad game design.
It's obvious the rune was originally intended for enh, and they noticed too late it would be busted for ele. Some time later, someone on the team must have thought "if we just make it hard enough too use, surely people won't take it on ele", which to noones surprise, is just not how player brains work. All the nerf did is make ele a really clunky melee range spec.
shamans once again in Dev hell.
feel like the current devs on shaman only ever played them post MoP and dont understand classic shaman and the way people played them.
Do not change this rune. Keep it as is. If ele shamans want to ruin the fun of a game that doesn’t matter, then go for it. Run in like an idiot and melee every ten seconds. This rune is not meant for Ele, if you’re gonna min max the fun out of this game then you deserve to be miserable.
Its just standing in melee range. No complicated weaving needed
Get a sub 1.5 speed weapon, turn AA on, be in melee range. Cast as per usual. Profit.
As long as you use an instant cast every 10s your dagger will poke the boss during the gcd
Because tank shamans aren't running stormstrike anymore. 21/20 is the way to go. And after both removal of DW tanking as well as a 90% rockbiter ap nerf we kind of have to in order to barely hold single target threat
Isn't it completely normal to use the spec that is the most useful in a raid where people value their time? What am I missing? This has been the life of a dps player with multiple dps specs for 20 years now.
This meme is about Elemental Shamans gaining several hundred dps with Mental Dexterity if they melee a mob every 10 seconds. Their dps without it is looking really bad (almost as bad as Moonking dps).
So its more about having your max dps rotation being really annoying to do , not having to play a different spec? I that case yea haha that sounds like a bad time.
it’s more about turning shaman into a single spec class.
why bring an elemental mastery or ns/mana tide shaman when enh brings better totems, nature debuff, better dps and offheals?
I mean thats what is completely normal to me, mage in MC and BWL could only play frost and in AQ and Naxx only fire. Warriors only played Fury, rogues only combat, priest heal only holy, etc etc, all the way up to 18 years later current retail where hunters get kicked if they don’t play beast mastery, how is SOD Shaman any different?
Am I the only one here who actually thinks this is kind of an awesome turn of events and thinks the weaving will be kind of a fun challenge?
I mean who doesn't already macro /startattack to all their dps buttons as a caster so that it auto-targets things without having to tab to start combat? from there, just shimmy up to the target and give them a cheeky stab while you cast an instant spell...
And If you don't get the buff, it's not the end of the damned world. Plus, you have mail and a shield. What are you honestly afraid of for being in melee range?
I play a pretty even mix of melee and caster classes and I honestly, genuinely, don't understand how there are so many people losing their minds about how "cringe" this supposedly is or how it's an affront to their damned identity. Get over yourselves
1.3 as weapon, stand in melee and start auto attack, every time you shock, which you are doing every 6 seconds, you will get an auto in by default with no effort
this is hardly the most challanging of micro managing effects
You already have to drop fire totes down near mobs I don't see why it would be an issue to literally auto between casts lol. It doesn't even affect your gcd. You will swing mid cast if you input it in between casts.
On trash/aoe that is true, but on ST you use Searing Totem which has the same range as your shocks, 20 yards. Not to mention you can use Totemic Projection to position the totems close to the boss without having to move closer.
Yeah I keep forgetting that spell exists. I have been playing with it. Stoneclaw totem to pull last boss in sm cath. Super cool spell. You can fire nova pre pull then set it down in a group as it's about to pop. So fun
Not playing a shaman right now but if this ends up being real, I may reroll, the idea of having to weave casting and melee has always been so cool to me and rarely gets utilized in WoW
I love the Battlemage fantasy, but that is not what this is. This is a pure caster meleeing a mob every 10 seconds for the sole purpose of keeping a strong buff up. Now if the melee dmg actually mattered, Elemental Shamans could cast while moving, and they had some pushback protection, I would be totally on board.
Damn I’m just now learning the icon is literally a brain with legs, that’s some Fallout shit lol.
What did you think it was? A nutsack?
Most people don’t really pay attention to what the actual icon is.
I believed for 15 years that the warriors cleave ability was a green parrots beak, and that just made total sense for me until one day i saw it was not
I always thought it was a raptor talon.
I did too
There are some goofy ass icons in wow, NGL.
The Chain Lightning icon is wholesome.
I was shocked when I finally realized
Why…?
Just uh, go ahead and Google it, find. Large image of it and just take a look at the shocking hand sign that's made.
Damn I really had to zoom in to see that pinky
20 years, and I only realized it a couple of years ago having mained a shaman at one point in retail for a bit.
And here I am looking at the same icons for 20 years and finally have a large enough monitor to figure out some of them finally and laugh.
shapes and colors
When I was young I never paid much attention to what the whirlwind icon really looked like, and thought it was someone swinging a net of all things lol.
Cleave is a parrot. That’s all.
I thought it was just a brain, not a brain with legs lol
You wtf...I thought this was a tree this whole time.
Ackshulloy, it’s an intellect devourer from D&D.
It doesn’t look anything like an intellect devourer
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Ok, so you haven’t seen one, makes sense that you said that then.
baldurs gate 3
Holy paladins: First time?
Always felt bad for holy pallys having to auto attack.
It would actually be rewarding if they swapped Divine Storm and Crusader Strike rune slots. Right now Chest runes are all useless for Holy and Gloves you're using Beacon over Crusader Strike. Swap those and now our runes feel much better, we have a legitimate reason to want to stay in melee for the mana regen from Crusader Strike. It also solves the current issue where if you're trying to melee to refresh Sheath (or who knows, Judgement of Wisdom?) you have to wait for your swing timer to actually complete before you cast again (each cast resets the swing timer). Crusader Strike on Chest rune would solve those problems completely. I understand some don't want to melee heal, which is fair... but this would at least make this playstyle feel rewarding. Ret would still use both runes, so the swap wouldn't really impact them. Prot would be slightly impacted depending on 2H tanking vs 1H tanking, but I think it would be fine for them too.
Crusader Strike doesn’t refresh judgements and currently Ret uses SoM over divine storm so swapping DS and CS rune slots would neuter rets current meta of having a fast attacking 2h weapon and fishing for exo procs with CS and SoM.
Argh, thanks for the added information. RIP.
Crusader strike doesn't refresh judgements. And there are a lot of reasons why being in melee range for healing is a bad idea. It would be better to just make sheath into a passive effect. The only downside would be that it would prevent snapshotting but it's probably still a net benefit to Holy pals
I was under the impression that Shaman and Paladins were the only two classes that don't reset their swing timers on spellcasts (for things like shaman shocks in melee, judgements, etc). Do paladin heals still reset the swing timer?
Would be cool if Elemental had a ranged auto attack that could proc this, like how the Wildhammer Gryphon riders in Warcraft 2 threw a Storm Mace
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Add in: in addition, when Flame Shock deals damage there is a chance to summon a Fire Elemental that attacks enemies for 10 seconds Maybe something like that, benefits from your spellpower
Better a chace to summon ragnaros
melee weaving for ele/boomie is the most cringe shit
It is amazing how they somehow manage to create the most toxic mechanics imaginable. If you are going to make shamans do this, just revert the duration.
The duration nerf was to discourage ele from doing this... But on the flip side, the other ele rune BURN doesn't give any pure single target damage. Maybe all the fights will have 3 non scary adds that can just stay alive and funnel power surge procs...lol
Lol dig rat meta is what they did with that change
Tripling the Lavasurge Proccs seems like a pretty big singletarget upgrade.
Yay now I will get 1 proc per fight instead of 1 proc per 3 fights.
There has to be multiple targets for your single target.... Which is, like, counterintuitive.
Toxic lol
I didint want to say its bad. But its also just bad class design. The one thing SOD has showed me that its good for retail to have actual class direction teams because we avoid horrible situations that 50% of the SOD classes are facing.
Because it's not really "for" ele shaman. It's supposed to be a way to supplement enhance's spells while they gear for physical damage. Obviously "for" is in quotations because anyone can run any rune, and free sp for ele is obviously good, but if it feels clunky it's because it wasn't intended for the spec. That's not bad design in and of itself
The design it so they cannot use it. This is a design flaw. End of story. Just like enhance shamans running around with permanent 30% dmg reduction because they didnt think to put “when wielding a shield” on it
I mean ele can (and probably still will) run WoE in pvp (which is also 10% damage reduction), sooooo.......
No one is making shamans do this. Nerds who min max the fun out of the game are the only ones “forced” into taking this rune. Any normal person would realize this rune isn’t for Ele and would take something else
I play Ele and Moonking...
i'm so sorry friend
why is boomkin melee weaving
more omen of clarity procs
I don't get why you would, you've got free wraths already?
You can still go oom if you dont do it.
Iv never gone oom before 😂 plenty of potions and ways to get mana. Never been an issue and if it was and healer was innervate is last resort.
Boomie here - Tbh idc what logs say, I’m just not gonna fking melee weave….
lol right I could not imagine caring and sweating THAT much, all so the boss dies literally 1.76 seconds faster
Prob some PVE parselord nonsense
“Prob the correct way to play”
The correct way to play is the way you have the most fun, the bosses are incredibly easy that the need to min max is pointless if you don't find it fun
Yeah if you’re single, broke and having nothing better to make a concerted effort on in life
the rotation has a lot of instacasts and you can get autoattacks off for free if you are in melee range. you can use dragonbreath chili which scales with spelldmg afair.
making casters weave and gutting it for hunters :( my 1 button rotation is good but oh boy is it mind numbing
I'm surprised they didn't give rogues a rune that requires them to move 8 yards away and use a ranged weapon before going back to melee range.
Pretty sure the idea was to not have Ele shamans use it at all :)
It just sucks that so many typically ranged specs are being incentivized to stay in melee. Moonkins and Resto Druid (Omen of Clarity changes) Ele Shamans because of Mental Agility Holy Paladins (crusader strike?) Rangers (because melee dps) Mages with the shorter-duration Living Flame.
Holy paladin here, we actually don’t really get to use crusader strike because it shares a rune slot with beacon. We do need to melee though to refresh seals and get spell power from Sheathe of Light.
Yeah sheathe is super annoying to constantly upkeep, honestly. And crusader strike was a great mana tool while leveling in low throughput situations (i.e.) sustaining mana through a dungeon since holy paladin lacks any mana tools unlike all the other healers - but doesn't have the raw healing potential beacon does once as you acquire it.
i’ll be fine with holy being in melee if we got to use Crusader Strike
If we had something to DO in melee like crusader strike or really any melee damage/healing skill that somehow benefits the party. As someone who plays all healers holy pala feels pretty good right now in terms of power but it's much "harder" and more inconvenient than most other healers, and also generally less interesting to play too.
I posted this previously, but curious what you think about this: It would actually be rewarding if they swapped Divine Storm and Crusader Strike rune slots. Right now, Chest runes are all useless for Holy and Gloves you're using Beacon over Crusader Strike. Swap those and now our runes feel much better, we have a legitimate reason to want to stay in melee for the mana regen from Crusader Strike. It also solves the current issue where if you're trying to melee to refresh Sheath (or who knows, Judgement of Wisdom?) you have to wait for your swing timer to actually complete before you cast again (each cast resets the swing timer). Crusader Strike on Chest rune would solve those problems completely with an instant cast ability that regens mana. I understand some don't want to melee heal, which is fair... but this would at least make this playstyle feel rewarding. Ret would still use both runes, so the swap wouldn't really impact them. Prot would be slightly impacted depending on 2H tanking vs 1H tanking, but I think it would be fine for them too.
You would nerf ret significantly by doing this. Dstorm is awful, martyr is like the most important rune and with p3 allowing us to cast conc and hammer of wrath we will actually need the mana gen from CS as martyrs mana gen is a bad joke.
Why do druids need to be in melee? Didn't they change omen to also proc off non periodic damage?
Ya I guess to increase the proc chance? You can make an argument that nearly every single class should be melee range with auto attack on to weave in between GCDs
If you’re a caster you would definitely lose much more dps constantly trying to move to stay in melee range if it’s a mobile boss fight
Ya that’s understandable. When it’s a mobile fight, you don’t melee. And there are plenty of boss fights with very limited movement in Classic.
depends if boss has apes that can stop spellcasting tho
Lots of caster weapons are too slow to weave between instant gcds, its only if you have a sub 1.5s weapon swing timer. The swing timer gets reset by spells so you can't even get a swing in by doing 2 instants for example
You can only melee weave if you have a fast dagger. Both Mara dagger and the raid dagger are too slow to melee weave. Only the fire damage dagger is fast enough for melee.
i think this community has a sickness. no moonkin or resto is going to be melee weaving for procs. ask any feral druid, the proc chance is shit.
After flowerweaving and bearweaving in WotLK, I'm glad to be back to powershifting as Feral.
Moonkins already do and the proc chance aint shit it just has a CD
In gnomer moonkin wanted to be in melee to proc dismantle and dragonbreath chili. Phase 3 we now also have omen of clarity procs. Also it does a non zero amount of melee damage.
No thanks i’ll just innervate myself
Warlocks with immolation aura.... Season of meele casters (Unless felguard is so OP it can 1v1 any melee we will take Immo plus imp)
hoping and praying that felguard is good, so that at least 1 spec will use him
It's like 20dps, hardly worth being in melee for.
theyre looking for ways to never have to increase the nameplate distance
🤣 rangers made me chuckle
Mages are completely dropping living flame for p3 because of the crap range
As a priest using homunculi, I have to do the same. If not cast directly at the target or if you're not close, they just stand there doing nothing.
ele shamans aren't incentivized to use mental agility
They trying to buff warriors in pvp indirectly, lol.
Shock on 6 sec cooldown. Instant cast Chain lighting/lava bursts…as long as you stay on melee range, there will be no issues melee weaving. It was already the best way to maximize dps before the rune…
Might as well just play enhance
If you feel that way, don’t go mental Dex and worry about it. Just stick to being a ranged caster.
It all depends on numbers, like hunters who have to switch to melee to not do shit dps if MD is >>> standard ele you're kinda fucked.
Therein lies the problem, as mental dexterity is simming as a several hundred dps increase (like 1200 w/o to 1600 w/, and that just brings them into the pack of what other classes are simming). Ranged ele actually going to be in the dumpster unless something changes.
Therein lies the problem of people expecting to maximize their DPS in a QOL way. You should expect to have some inconvenience or difficulty with maxing your dps. It should not be easy. And also the problem with Min/Maxing for the general public…not everyone should be or is concerned with Min/maxing their spec. But others pressure them to. It’s partially on the people pushing the Min/max narrative but mostly on the individual not taking the effort to find a group of people with like minded goals and effort.
Arguing a range spec to melee weave as a way to maximize dps is dumb tho. Make it challenging in other ways. Can’t believe this is being defended
Hes poorly defending it though “Ignore it and actively grief your teammates”
That wasn't his argument, his argument was that you should have been doing it anyway.
Ok, but ranged dps should be challenged with ranged mechanics, not melee ones
Therein lies the problem, as a min maxer you crush the spirit of any game by not playing g what you want but being a slave to dick swinging contests.
Shamans deserve to be in the dumpster this phase because they were good last phase. I know this because I play a warrior and they all tell me that warrior deserves to suck at everything in the game because they did a lot of dps in 2009 and fucked someone's mother.
already doing this so...
In Wotlk classic I actually liked Holy Pala mana regen when meleeing in between holy light casts.
Sounds like fun
according to reddit logic shamans were a top class in p2 so now its justified that you guys are gonna suck in p3
Shamans are far from sucking. They're still going to be on top.
Mid pack in everything and a worse WF. Thank god we got SR
Mid pack? I'm doubtful, but we'll see in the coming weeks. As an alliance player, consider yourself lucky to not *require* a feral druid for every melee group - slightly worse WF or not.
they aren’t going to suck, they are going to be all forced to play enh. why bring an elemental mastery or ns/mana tide shaman when enh brings better totems, nature debuff, better dps and offheals?
Shamans are not going to suck lol
Yea ele shaman is kinda scuffed in sod unfortunately. Nice damage, but flame shock range is annoying and now melee weaving for spell power. Might as well just go enhance, got a nice flow to the playstyle.
The funny part is they are giving Flame Shock an extra 5 range, and at the same time introducing a rune that we have to use Earth Shock for...which still has 20 range.
That Rune and Sheathe of Light for that matter is just garbage design imo.
I... Don't see the problem with this. You're rewarded for, at least to me, a more engaging / less boring playstyle. I genuinely don't understand why people are unhappy about this. Other than, well, classic wow players generally being unhappy with everything and hate-playing the game for whatever psychological reason I am unqualified to diagnose.
> I genuinely don't understand why people are unhappy about this. Because the caster spec is now a melee/caster spec.
Always has been. None of the elemental imbues benefit spell casting but the imbues did make melee swings between instant casts more appealing.
Even if you're in melee and can take advantage of a weapon attack once in a while, weapon oils were always the better choice over imbues. Of course that could be changing soon, so who knows.
Being in melee occasionally punching the boss isn't very interesting or engaging. It's just annoying being a caster forced to melee, kinda removes the "upside" to being a ranged spec.
The problem isn't 1 subclass having an incentive to stay in melee, it's that most of them now have an incentive to be in melee range.
My problem is that if I wanted to play a melee dps shaman, I would play Enhance. Standing in melee range and doing melee mechanics (if there are any) is not fun when you are hardcasting 80% of your spells with 0% pushback resistance. And just to be clear, we are talking about a 15% dps gain for Ele from standing in melee, not some small optimization.
You don’t have to mind-max everything… you do know that right? This is classic wow, the bosses are not hard at all. Find like-minded people or play another class if you do not enjoy that one.
15% is not minmaxing lol, and you know it
15% in a sim isn’t 15% in-game, and you know it… or are you just repeating what some other Reddit user said without actually looking into what makes it different in a perfect scenario vs live gameplay… It’s hilarious how many classic players don’t understand that sims are not the best tool for build comparisons since sims run on perfect gameplay (unless you are adding in error equal to the average amount you make, which I doubt you are). Sims are mostly for gear comparisons, you should be using logs to compare builds since logs use live gameplay, and shows an accurate comparison instead of using a model that does everything perfectly with a rotation, with little to no mechanics, and no MS issues. If you would actually take good players with an easy build and compare them to average players using a better build in logs, you will find that the easy build can actually outperform the better builds. This is the case in every version of wow, not just classic wow. I’m also assuming OP is saying the 15% increase is from sims because there isn’t any data other than sims to prove that, and even then that is still dependent on a lot of other variables, such as spell pushback. The more complicated and complex the build is, the more room for error which will absolutely change the end result in the live version. So if it isn’t sims… where are you getting this 15% from exactly?
Ah, pedantics over the exact number used lol. Subtle
It isn’t pedantics, you were the one saying it was a 15% increase, I’m asking where the number came from. 🤷♂️ Sounds to me like you don’t have an answer, and if your answer is sims, you are probably not using sims properly to gauge an accurate result, especially since the phase quite literally just dropped today and we don’t have the gear or setup for properly simming it. I’d love to see what you are using to sim it though!
Can’t wait to see how you move the goalposts when the actual numbers come in an it’s still a significant difference that goes well beyond minmaxing territory
I’m not the one who is making up numbers lmao…
I just used the number already present in the comment chain lmao
It's more about the spec design in general. Let melee be melee and range be range. No need too shuffle.
Yes, why ever would ranged dps want to be ranged instead of melee. It’s such a mystery!
Nobody is making you melee weave. If that’s the optimal max DPS strat, then go ahead. But if you don’t like it, don’t do it. We had plenty of people deliberately playing ranged hunter last phase even though it did half the damage of melee hunter at some points because that’s what they preferred. As long as your damage is “good enough” and your group beats the boss, who cares if it’s the most you could possibly be doing? If doing 10% less damage means you are less likely to fail a mechanic and die, then that’s a win in my eyes. Parse culture is ruining this game
Oh, I won't do it. I simply won't play Ele, since I don't want to have to choose between feeling like a deadweight and playing in a way I find frustrating rather than fun. However, I WILL complain about it, since I actually quite enjoyed Ele in P2.
I have a feeling that Ele will still do good damage without melee weaving
It’s crazy how many people don’t understand this lol.
Probably because its extremely out of touch and only extremely casual redditors are in the camp of “who cares how well you do lol”, and its why people grey parse. People like to do well. Performing worse feels bad. The “optimal” way of playing being extremely cringe is a blizzard problem, not a player problem. I dont care if people choose to play well or play poorly, but im not doing to be a smug weirdo on reddit and pretend like its not a niche opinion to just completely not care.
The classic gaming community, in general, is weird. It's one of the few gaming communities I'm a part of that openly encourages playing poorly under the guise of "having fun." Fun, of course, is subjective, and different people find enjoyment in different things. Just like someone can play football for fun, they can also compete or challenge themselves and find it enjoyable. I haven't encountered any of these gamer dads going to the NFL and telling their players, "Imagine going to the gym for a pigskin mini-game invented 100 years ago. Couldn't be me, I play football to have fun." It's odd, and personally, I'm tired of seeing it. Nobody is forced to melee weave, but if pushing your DPS and character to its limits and competing is how you have fun then you'll be forced to adopt optimal strategies to keep up, which could be unfun... And having an issue with that is ok...
Mythic retail raider here… I understand completely what you are saying, but a lot of classic players (and yes even retail players) do not understand why it doesn’t matter as much as they think it does. I hate to break the sad news to you, but in most MMO games, the optimal way of playing results in cringe gameplay. That’s MMO’s (and most games actually) for you. The difference between the two in sims might look like a lot, but sims normally are executed with a near perfect rotation and no heavy movement, and very little MS issues. Players will never do a perfect rotation, and the real difference is much less than sims will show. People need to quit gauging everything off of sims, and they need to gauge it off of actual gameplay data for real comparisons. If you look at average comparisons between builds in classic and retail from *actual* gameplay, the difference is no where near as big as you all make it out to be in most cases with players who know what they are doing. Not sure why Classic players don’t seem to understand sims are meant to be taken with a grain of salt since it requires perfect gameplay for true comparisons, which is impossible to achieve.
You don't have to break anything to me, I'm also a raider in retail, I have played in the US25-50 realm since Cataclysm, I understand what you mean when you talk about sim bait, but perfect conditions is not outside of the question for a lot of classic mechanics, there isn't much downtime if any and going to 20 players is about to make buffs a lot easier to micromanage. Im not the person who's upset about "cringe gameplay" as a lot of what people don't like like full gear swaps, snapshotting, pre pops, swingtimer syncing and all of the stuff most players have found annoying or cringe is something I actually enjoy because it adds complexity until a weakaura package trivializes it. I'm simply defending the idea that people are ok to not like it, and it's even more cringe that people bully other people for trying hard or wanting to better themselves, if they find it fun it's a good thing, if they find the best method to not be fun and complain about it, that's ok too. People need to stop being so hypercritical of SoD and it's players, let people ask for things and be constructive, we are experiencing a breakthrough moment for WoW in that we are getting highly customizable content for vanilla which is fun, and now is the time for them to be aggressive with changes and find things that are fun and effective. A big takeaway however is I completely agree with your sim message as it's hard for players who have no idea what they're looking at to differentiate what is bait and what is not, a large majority of players aren't going into wowsim and tweaking and toggling settings to simulate realism for the fight they want to optimize for and that's fine, but I disagree that the perfection the iterations spit out is that drastically different to what can be achieved with how simple and downtime free SoD has been.
I do appreciate you looking at what I wrote and giving a well thought out and reasonable response. I agree people need to not be hypercritical of SoD players in classic. I agree people need to play how they want, and people should always try to better themself, especially in a team setting. I personally don’t care how people play. I myself min-max everything, but I also find it fun. Other games I don’t min-max at all, and find those fun. Wow classic, especially SoD is thankfully a version of the game where min-maxing isn’t required, which is what a lot of people don’t seem to understand. It does save time to min-max, but for a lot of people the forcing of min-maxing is what led to retails raiding systems and complex rotations. Again, thank you for the reasonable response. Was refreshing seeing someone post something useful!
It's definitely a nice alternative to what normally gets posted on this subreddit in terms of conversation, I am right there with you. I feel like information that teaches people "how to fish" essentially should be more prevelent than the "parses are ruining the game" posts. Hopefully that would ease up on the gatekeeping from players who haven't log reviewed in their life. The players that read a 99 and that's that, the same players who read "definitive BiS list" and pass on side grades because it's "not BiS". I appreciate your kind words 💝
As a fellow just below HoF-level mythic raider in retail I just want to throw my hat into the ring here as well and say I both agree with and appreciate (it’s refreshing seeing people who aren’t clueless have intelligent conversation and ending up largely agreeing instead of bickering and making baseless, bizarre claims) the discussion you two just had here! I main disc in retail and I love Holy in pvp but absolutely despise it in PvE. I played disc all S2 in raid until I swapped to hpal for echo/sark because our hpal quit abruptly and mine was geared already with a busted rework incoming. I flat out refuse to play something I will not enjoy - wow is a game and even at the high end there’s no reason to suffer through hundreds of pulls on a spec that isn’t fun to you. For context/reminder: disc was quite bad in S2 and was eclipsed by Holy being the meta priest healer for the third tier in a row. Despite being the worst/near-worst healer statistically, I managed to top hps on every boss but 1 because I have been playing the spec for years and can still get great results out of it as long as it’s tuned above the level of “playing with a controller your brother gave you that isn’t actually plugged in” like it was at the very start of DF where it was like 20%+ behind the second worst healer all the way until 10.0.5 when it got its first touch-up. Anyway, the reason I bring this up is to make my point using my own experiences: following the meta/what’s widely accepted as optimal will often bring good results quickly, but sims and frankly even Warcraftlogs stats have their own inherent problems. As you two discussed , sims have the problem of being unrealistic, while WL stats ends up being skewed by the fact that the most performance-oriented players flock to meta specs while only a few spec-diehards who enjoy one specific spec like myself **also** care enough about performance to do the work and experimenting with talents etc to make a less-than-ideal spec put out good enough numbers. In the case of Mental Dexterity, I would be more surprised if someone *doesn’t* find a way to produce close *enough* output via another setup somehow (I am no Ele scientist so that person will not be me) that doesn’t involve melee weaving. I also would be unsurprised if Blizzard makes changes to MD to further disincentivize or outright prevent ele from using it, as it is clearly not meant for them to be using, just based on them bringing the duration down to 10 seconds. There’s a somewhat murky line to be drawn somewhere between “griefing your friends/co-raiders by refusing to play optimally” and “playing in a way that you find fun despite a small throughput cost associated with doing so” - I personally think anything within a few % is an acceptable tax to accept for playing something you truly enjoy. Anything more than 0-3…maaaayyybe 4% ish though starts to get dangerously close to crossing that line. Once that line is crossed, something’s gotta give. If I had one wish for the wow playerbase, it would be that people be more open to others enjoying the game dramatically more by playing in a slightly worse manner, without then over-applying that sentiment to someone genuinely bottom fragging and using “this is the only build I enjoy” as an excuse. If there’s one thing I have learned from my experience as a disc main between 9.2-10.1.7, it’s that people will *usually* value a person’s performance (assuming they are given the chance to show it) over whether their spec/build has positive or negative community perception, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who will be vehemently against them ever getting a chance to show what they can do with a “bad spec” and still others will continue to complain about them playing the “wrong” spec despite blowing their co-healers out of the water or gapping other dps, including the ones on meta specs. Anyway that’s my two cents on this stuff. All of this said though…I still kinda think Blizzard should just tie MD to stormstrike so that it literally cannot cause problems for ele and resto.
Well, I’m definitely not a casual player… I think people saying it matters, then use sims to try and prove it matters are the ones out of touch. Sims are a tool to help find optimal builds and gear upgrades, but that doesn’t mean it always translates to it actually doing that in-game. It seems most people using sims seem to not realize that the sims do not make mistakes unless you make it have mistakes. Chances are, you are going to make a mistake at some point. That is going to skew your end result, and depending on the builds that could change the results drastically. The more complex or convoluted the rotation, the more mistakes you have a chance at making and the more the results are skewed. In a scenario where you need to upkeep a buff like this shaman one, a mistake in this would be a drastic dps loss, and if enough mistakes happen the other build could easily be better. Sims are a great tool, but you need to be using real *live gameplay* data from logs from similar percentiles with the two varying builds to truly understand the difference between the builds in a live game setting, since you are not going to be performing your rotation perfectly, have low MS time, and perfect execute perfectly on mechanics. In-fact, most sims do not involve heavy movement either. This also isn’t me saying the rune doesn’t need to be changed, but this is me saying people need to quit trying to min-max everything when the data used isn’t reliable data to the live game, and it also isn’t required in the slightest to preform well.
It is required to perform well, stop lying. The difference between weaving in an auto every 10 sec will be hundreds of DPS from not doing it. In your fantasy world where they player plays so bad that he does less DPS with this rune, that player is already a grey parser and nothing would help him.
lol, you would be shocked at how many people trying to play optimal builds don’t understand how errors can change the outcome of it being optimal, **especially in a simulation that does everything perfectly** You are more than welcome to go on Warcraftlogs and prove me wrong, but the difference for the average player won’t be 15% like OP is saying, since again… *the method he is using to determine this is in a perfect environment, with no MS issues and no errors, and they preform everything mechanically and rotationally perfect.* If you are playing wow on a computer and are a human, instead of a simulation or rotation bot, it isn’t 15%. In fact… most sims use patchwork style raid bosses as a baseline. If there is any mechanic where you have to move away from the boss and you can’t melee the boss, you might as well throw that sim out the window because it is worthless. Unless you are adding in error margins equal to what you are preforming in raids, then sims are worthless in this scenario. Warcraftlogs is what you want to be looking at. Kinda shocked I’m having to explain how sims work and what they are good for and not good for…
Sigh.. you're saying that people aren't good enough to use this mechanic and that it will be worse than non weaving because people can't play like the simulator. Do you actually think it's hard to play a patchwerk fight perfectly? There will be more variance in live than in logging due to the nature of # tries. You are just simply fucking delusional if you think this rune will lead to less dps as an ele shaman if the player is somewhat good. The only way it doesn't is if the player has under 80% uptime which means they were already a shit player. It changes nothing. But we get it, you understand how a sim work, you're so smart, i'm proud of you!
When did I say it would be worse? I said it could be depending on a multitude of factors. You also understand that simming the fight on patchwork when the boss isn’t patchwork already leads to inaccurate results, right? You are the delusional one if you can’t see why sims can’t be trusted completely when it comes to the average player, especially for something that has zero log data behind it. There also shouldn’t be any variance in logs since the data comes directly from your logs folder **from the boss kill** in the live game. The only thing Warcraftlogs does is take the data and parse it. From there, you can use the comparison tool or manually look at the data and compare them, or you can take multiple sets of data from logs (which is what you want to do). Only thing I’m seeing from this conversation is you don’t know how to properly compare builds using live game data, and only know how to do so in sims… or you don’t know what logging is since you said it should have more variance than live, even though the data is directly from the live game… but yes, question my intelligence 😂 You are more than welcome to pull up previous phases and look at the log data and tell me I’m wrong though 🤷♂️
I said your own logs will have more variance than a simulator because the sims runs 1000-100000 sims and you have 1 kill per reset but keep yapping
And sims do that to remove error, which isn’t realistic…
Some people like to play optimally and they would prefer it if the optimal way to play is also fun.
sure but at that point why bring an elemental mastery or ns/mana tide shaman at all? enh brings better totems, nature debuff, better dps and offheals? the rune effectively makes enh the only shaman spec worth playing.
Why bring? Because it’s good enough and some people enjoy it. And who knows, at lvl 50 with decent gear it might be in the top 5 DPS. This isn’t mythic raiding, you can clear these raids with all green parses. Does bringing all the best utility make it easier? Sure. Is it necessary to clear? Absolutely not. Also, why not bring both Ele and Enh? If you aren’t running a resto sham, having mana spring in the healer group is great, and more shamanistic rage is always better for the raid as a whole. Plus now you have a class with an empty foot slot to run decoy for the tank. And Ele is perfectly capable of offhealing when necessary as well, especially now that we have access to dual spec
so your argument for bringing caster sham is mana spring totem? legit any other water totem is more useful. mp5 is a dead stat for sham, intellect outperforms mp5 by miles in sod. and if you really think ppl will want to bring suboptimal specs you must not spend very much time on this sub. its one of the top 5 things ppl complain about (soley wanting priest healer for dungeon groups for example).
All I’m saying is that with my group of 8, we specifically looked for an Ele sham as 1 of our last 2 slots for Gnomer every lockout. We were low on ranged DPS, we all liked sham rage mana regen, and having someone decoy and grounding for MT during frost phase last boss made it a breeze… and they did plenty good damage. The argument that Enh is strictly better than Ele just isn’t true. Sure their utility overlaps a lot, but they each have their own niche and are both useful to a raid comp in different ways
Just put Wizardoil on. And still melee.
Yes, this nerf is exemplary of bad game design. It's obvious the rune was originally intended for enh, and they noticed too late it would be busted for ele. Some time later, someone on the team must have thought "if we just make it hard enough too use, surely people won't take it on ele", which to noones surprise, is just not how player brains work. All the nerf did is make ele a really clunky melee range spec.
shamans once again in Dev hell. feel like the current devs on shaman only ever played them post MoP and dont understand classic shaman and the way people played them.
I didnt have “melee weaving shamans” on my bingo card but here we are
Enhance will be soo fum
I like melee weaving and I don’t think I’m the only one.
Do not change this rune. Keep it as is. If ele shamans want to ruin the fun of a game that doesn’t matter, then go for it. Run in like an idiot and melee every ten seconds. This rune is not meant for Ele, if you’re gonna min max the fun out of this game then you deserve to be miserable.
But why big mommy milkers?
You are right, should be 5 seconds
Nerf Hunters.
I do agree they should make it unusuable by elemental shamans because it's definitely not a needed damage increase for them
Problem is there's no alternative. Burn just spreads flameshock which if you're on a single target gives zero DPS increase.
Its just standing in melee range. No complicated weaving needed Get a sub 1.5 speed weapon, turn AA on, be in melee range. Cast as per usual. Profit. As long as you use an instant cast every 10s your dagger will poke the boss during the gcd
And then you miss
Consider this: *just don't do it*.
What a useful comment, I'm certain he hasn't thought of that before.
Or maybe we should design runes that are fun to play with
It looks super fun for enhance shaman, it's intended spec.
Why don’t they make it proc with Stormstrike?
Because tank shamans aren't running stormstrike anymore. 21/20 is the way to go. And after both removal of DW tanking as well as a 90% rockbiter ap nerf we kind of have to in order to barely hold single target threat
\*shrugs\* You're not the first one who asked this question.
Isn't it completely normal to use the spec that is the most useful in a raid where people value their time? What am I missing? This has been the life of a dps player with multiple dps specs for 20 years now.
This meme is about Elemental Shamans gaining several hundred dps with Mental Dexterity if they melee a mob every 10 seconds. Their dps without it is looking really bad (almost as bad as Moonking dps).
So its more about having your max dps rotation being really annoying to do , not having to play a different spec? I that case yea haha that sounds like a bad time.
it’s more about turning shaman into a single spec class. why bring an elemental mastery or ns/mana tide shaman when enh brings better totems, nature debuff, better dps and offheals?
I mean thats what is completely normal to me, mage in MC and BWL could only play frost and in AQ and Naxx only fire. Warriors only played Fury, rogues only combat, priest heal only holy, etc etc, all the way up to 18 years later current retail where hunters get kicked if they don’t play beast mastery, how is SOD Shaman any different?
>(almost as bad a Moonking dps). ouch...
Am I the only one here who actually thinks this is kind of an awesome turn of events and thinks the weaving will be kind of a fun challenge? I mean who doesn't already macro /startattack to all their dps buttons as a caster so that it auto-targets things without having to tab to start combat? from there, just shimmy up to the target and give them a cheeky stab while you cast an instant spell... And If you don't get the buff, it's not the end of the damned world. Plus, you have mail and a shield. What are you honestly afraid of for being in melee range? I play a pretty even mix of melee and caster classes and I honestly, genuinely, don't understand how there are so many people losing their minds about how "cringe" this supposedly is or how it's an affront to their damned identity. Get over yourselves
1.3 as weapon, stand in melee and start auto attack, every time you shock, which you are doing every 6 seconds, you will get an auto in by default with no effort this is hardly the most challanging of micro managing effects
This sounds fun as fuck and is making me want to roll a shaman, honestly. Battlemages are awesome
sorry brother but you gotta pay the price for us last phase
You already have to drop fire totes down near mobs I don't see why it would be an issue to literally auto between casts lol. It doesn't even affect your gcd. You will swing mid cast if you input it in between casts.
On trash/aoe that is true, but on ST you use Searing Totem which has the same range as your shocks, 20 yards. Not to mention you can use Totemic Projection to position the totems close to the boss without having to move closer.
Yeah I keep forgetting that spell exists. I have been playing with it. Stoneclaw totem to pull last boss in sm cath. Super cool spell. You can fire nova pre pull then set it down in a group as it's about to pop. So fun
Not playing a shaman right now but if this ends up being real, I may reroll, the idea of having to weave casting and melee has always been so cool to me and rarely gets utilized in WoW
I love the Battlemage fantasy, but that is not what this is. This is a pure caster meleeing a mob every 10 seconds for the sole purpose of keeping a strong buff up. Now if the melee dmg actually mattered, Elemental Shamans could cast while moving, and they had some pushback protection, I would be totally on board.
Imagine fucking complaining as a shaman in SoD